Jacob Soboroff (5:40)

Jonathan, thank you very much. I'm lucky enough to be sitting here in Atlanta at 11 Alive, our NBC affiliate, which has graciously given us this studio space with three very brave women who were fired from the cdc. And while they don't know yet if they're going to get their jobs back, they do know that they want to speak out about what they've gone through. And so I'd love to introduce you to them. From left to right is Sarah Boym, who was fired from a role at the CDC as a senior communications specialist for the national center for Environmental Health and the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. In the middle is Abby Tai, who was fired from her role as a public health advisor for the Drug Free Communities branch of the cdc. And on the right is Stephanie Tran, who was fired from her job as a Presidential Management fellow and a public health analyst at the Office of Readiness and response. By 1pm today, as this order states, you were supposed to have been reinstated to your jobs by the federal government. This federal judge in Maryland has said what the Trump administration did was not legal in firing all of you. You were all probationary employees and were terminated for what they said was performance related issues. None of you, though, as we're sitting here, have been reinstated. Correct?

Sarah Boym (6:54)

Crickets.

Jacob Soboroff (6:55)

What were your performance reviews like? You were all terminated for performance. But I saw some data that you shared with me, Sarah, that said most of the people who were terminated had pretty good performance records.

Sarah Boym (7:05)

Yeah, my performance review was so good that my mom showed up with a bouquet of tulips and a card telling me how proud she was of me. And then I was fired like three days later for performance.

Jacob Soboroff (7:18)

How about you, Abby?

Abby Tai (7:20)

Yeah, I had a 4.75 out of 5.

Jacob Soboroff (7:23)

Probably top of the class.

David Farenthal (7:25)

Yeah.

Abby Tai (7:25)

And that was signed one month before I was fired. And my supervisor had actually bumped me up to that from my self score because he was pretty impressed with how I had done Stephanie.

Stephanie Tran (7:36)

Yep, same here. 4.0 was a really small team and I worked my butt off.

Jacob Soboroff (7:41)

Let's talk about the work that you guys were doing. The work you were doing, Stephanie, you were a liaison basically for $750 million that was to be spent over the next five years for public health preparedness with localities all across the country. You were basically telling them how to spend the money efficiently and effectively, is that right?

Stephanie Tran (8:01)

Similarly, we were just there to really help them want to use the money wisely for their communities. You know, every state, every community has different problems. And we were really there to kind of be there and support them in using this fund to really tackle on the problems that they had.

Jacob Soboroff (8:17)

You were also a presidential management fellow. The best of the best. The most elite young people coming into the federal government, many of whom go on to have prominent positions in the government for. For their entire careers. How did you get to that point? What's your backstory?

Stephanie Tran (8:32)

So I was a. Well, I'M a child of Vietnamese boat immigrants. The United States and the American people, let them settle their roots down here.

Jacob Soboroff (8:42)

In the US You're a first generation American.

Stephanie Tran (8:44)

Yes, I am a first generation American. I grew up on food stamps, free school lunches. My first pair of glasses was a public health initiative at schools, went to community college. And I knew then and there public health was what I wanted to do. I wanted to give back all the kindness that I received growing up. And it was a viable career, and it really pushed me to really become a federal employee.

Jacob Soboroff (9:08)

Abby, you have a young boy yourself. You're a relatively new mom, and your work is dedicated towards saving the lives of young people through overdose prevention. If you look at the data right now, we're in our first year in nearly a decade where overdose deaths are going down in the United States. How much of that is attributable, do you think, to the work that you've been doing and doing successfully?

Abby Tai (9:34)

Yeah, I think it's a big factor, you know, when we can work with communities to prevent youth from initiating drug use or drinking alcohol, like we are setting them up for success in the long term. And you see those gains eventually. Right. That's the tough thing about prevention is we put a lot of effort and money up front to keep people healthy. And then we see the results of that over years and over decades.

Jacob Soboroff (10:04)

Are you worried about the future that, that your boy might face when the government's cutting people like you all from these jobs?

Abby Tai (10:12)

I definitely feel that way. I mean, part of that is why I feel compelled to speak out is, you know, it's important that we have these really strong government foundations, especially in public health, because diseases, you know, overdoses, these things don't know any kind of like, bounds or, you know, class or race or ethnicity. These are things that impact all of us across the country, and we deserve to be a healthy country. And, you know, I don't know that we are on that path anymore.

Jacob Soboroff (10:50)

Sarah, you were, in some measure, I think all of you were, in some measure, working towards measurable results, which is exactly what Doge and Elon Musk have said they want the government to be doing. You were working as a digital media specialist, a strategist in departments, and you had even been recognized with a nomination for one of the top awards within the CDC for your work on helping people in situations of extreme heat. When you look back at where the government was when you came into it, the cdc, the tools they were using, and where you were able to take it, you feel like there's more to do.

Sarah Boym (11:28)

Yes. I mean, we came out with a really wonderful suite of resources for clinicians and the public. We were continuing to develop those resources. And because we're cdc, we don't just put a product into the world and then close the project. So we're continuously gathering data and making our resources better. So without the contributions that I was making as a digital media strategist, I'm not sure where they're getting that data right now.

Jacob Soboroff (12:00)

You've been outspoken. You've talked to some other folks about the impact of all of this on you personally. It's hard on mental health for anybody in the federal government that's going through this. How are you doing?

Sarah Boym (12:11)

I was very depressed and despondent, but I think I've moved on from that. And now I'm just really angry at the injustice that has been done not only to me, not only to my colleagues, but really to the public.

Jacob Soboroff (12:26)

Even if the judge, the order that the judge put out is followed by the Trump administration. There's supposed to be a status conference this evening. Status report. Excuse me. And you guys are reinstated. Are you confident that you won't be fired again from the federal government?

Abby Tai (12:42)

No, no, no.

Jacob Soboroff (12:43)

You gonna start looking outside the government for jobs?

Sarah Boym (12:46)

Unfortunately, yes. I don't want to, but I will.

Jacob Soboroff (12:49)

When they talk about brain drain, that's exactly. You're looking at it right now. I can't thank you guys enough. I'm so sorry for the situation you're going through. Jonathan, we're talking about people who very likely could have had better jobs for more pay outside of the federal government, but dedicated their lives to a career in the civil service to help other people. And now at great risk to their own anonymity within the public, but they've decided to come forward because they want the world and everybody out there tonight watching to know what they're going through and what a loss it is for the federal government. They're heroes in my book.

David Farenthal (13:22)

Agreed. What a superb conversation. Jacob Souborough in Atlanta. Thank you. All that chaos and we don't even have a real, real hard data on what's happening right now in the federal government. Despite Elon Musk claiming that Dodgy's actions would be transparent. Our first guest tonight, David Farenthal, reports in the New York Times. Quote, elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency has repeatedly posted error filled data that inflated its successes at saving taxpayer money. But after a series of news reports called out those mistakes, the group changed its tactics. Mr. Musk's group had briefly embedded the federal identification numbers of these grants in the publicly available source code. The Times used those numbers to match Dodgy's claims with reality and to discover that they contained the same kind of errors that it had made in the past. Mr. Musk's group later removed those identifiers from the code and posted more batches of claims that could not be verified at all. Joining us now, David Farenthal, investigative reporter at the New York Times. David, been a long time. Great to see you. Thanks for coming to the Last word. In the federal court hearings for the lawsuits filed against Doge, you can hear the judge's frustration about the lack of concrete information about what's actually happening. I mean, from your reporting. Are they deliberately trying to hide it from the public?

Michael McFaul (14:56)

Well, we've reported they've made every possible effort to keep the details about what they're doing from the public, to keep details even about who's in charge of Doge. The thing is designed for maximum privacy. But as you said earlier, there's one place where they sort of put their work on display and they rest their whole reputation and claims about transparency in this one place, which is this website called the Wall of Receipts. That's the place, as you said, that we've been looking at. And when we look at that work, that one little window into their work, we find it's riddled with errors of the claims.

David Farenthal (15:29)

You could check, you found, I'm quoting you to you, at least five of the 20 largest savings appear to be exaggerated. In other cases, Mr. Musk's group seemed to misunderstand a key figure in USAID grants. David, how important is that context?

Michael McFaul (15:47)

Look, this is really important because they're trying to dismantle parts of the federal government. And what they've said about sort of the moral license they have to do that is we know, you know, we're tech whizzes. We're able to see things other people can't, and that we're making our work transparent so that if anybody has problems with it, they can raise it to us and, you know, point out what we've done wrong. And this goes against both of those pieces. Number one, it shows they don't really understand the mechanism, the machinery, the rules of government as they try to take it apart, which makes it unlikely they're going to find the parts that are wasteful and need to go. And also that they've cut back on transparency so that it's impossible to check their work from the outside.

David Farenthal (16:26)

How can you cover what Doge is doing. If they're hiding details about their data, how do you hold them accountable?

Michael McFaul (16:34)

Well, what we've tried to do is to use the small amount of data they're putting out now and try to use it to check it against federal spending data, to talk to different government vendors. We're going to continue doing this even if they make less data available. We're going to continue fact checking what's out there because, again, these folks have so much power and so much influence in the government. It's really important to know if they understand the government and if they're good at their jobs.

David Farenthal (16:59)

That is the essence of great reporting. David Farenthal, thank you very much for coming to the Last Word. And coming up, the Trump administration is playing chicken with the federal courts. That's next.

Rachel Maddow (17:14)

MSNBC presents Main Justice. Each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.

David Farenthal (17:26)

The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy.

Tulsi Gabbard (17:30)

I think what we are seeing is Project 2025 in action. This is it coming to fruition.

Rachel Maddow (17:37)

Main justice subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.

Jonathan Capehart (17:54)

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

Rachel Maddow (18:00)

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Jonathan Capehart (18:27)

Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.

Rachel Maddow (18:29)

Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

Jonathan Capehart (18:33)

How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?

Rachel Maddow (18:39)

The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

David Farenthal (18:48)

The United States is teetering very close to a constitutional crisis. That was the message that the ACLU's immigration attorney, Lee Galernt brought to federal court today during a hearing about the Trump administration's alleged defiance of a federal judge's order to send flights with hundreds of Venezuelan immigrants back to the United States. There has been a lot of talk over the last couple of weeks about a constitutional crisis. I think we're getting very close to that, gulern said. On Saturday, five Venezuelan men sued the Trump administration's invocation of the Alien enemies Act of 1798, a wartime statute invoked only three times in U.S. history during the War of 1812, World War I and World War II. To be perfectly clear, the United States is not at war with Venezuela. Donald Trump is trying to justify this extreme measure, saying he's combating the Venezuelan gang trend, refusing to identify the suspected members or provide any evidence of their alleged gang affiliation. Within hours of the lawsuit, Federal Judge James Boasberg, the chief federal district court judge in Washington, D.C. held a hearing on Saturday where he delivered an order that could not have been more explicit. Judge Boasberg said, quote, you shall inform your clients of this immediately and that any plane containing these folks that is going to take off or is in the air needs to be returned to the United States. But the Trump administration didn't do that. Instead, the Trump administration landed the planes in El Salvador, paying that country $6 million to hold more than 260 immigrants in a megaprison notorious for human rights abuses. Yesterday, El Salvador's strongman President Nayib Bukele mocked the judge's order on social media. Look at this. Oopsie. Too late, bukele wrote, followed by a laughing emoji. But here's what's more outrageous. Secretary of State Marco Rubio, a defendant in the case, joined in on the mockery by reposting him. Then Trump's so called border czar Tom Homan expressed open contempt for judges on Fox.

Barbara McQuaid (21:15)

We're not stopping. I don't care what the judges think. I don't care what the left thinks.

David Farenthal (21:19)

We're coming today. When asked about the case, White House press Secretary Caroline Levitt said this does.

Jonathan Capehart (21:27)

The White House feel the need to comply with a verbal order from this judge?

David Farenthal (21:31)

Again, as I said, all of the plain's subject to the written order of.

Jonathan Capehart (21:36)

This judge departed US Soil US Territory before the judge's written order.

David Farenthal (21:42)

During today's hearing, Judge Boasberg didn't seem to buy the Trump administration's rationalization that his order didn't count because the planes were over international waters. The problem is the equitable power of United States courts is not so limited, boasberg said. The judge told the DOJ that if they disagreed with his order, they could have appealed. They could have appealed it instead of adopting the position, quote, we don't care. We'll do what we want. Judge Boasberg ordered the Trump DOJ to submit a written brief about their compliance by noon tomorrow before considering next. Joining U.S. now, former U.S. attorney Barbara McQuaid, a professor at the University of Michigan Law School and the author of Attack from How Disinformation Is Sabotaging America. Barbara, thank you very much for coming to the Last Word. Tell us about the Alien Enemies act, and why does it matter that Donald Trump invoked it?

Jonathan Capehart (22:45)

Well, as you said, this is a statute that was passed in 1798, and the concern about it here is that it is supposed to apply during wartime or to repel an invasion. And so in 1798, when there was concern about war with France or with Britain, it made sense that the president might want to be able, if that war began, to expel people from our country. It was a time when Congress wasn't always sitting. And so it allowed the president to act with nimbleness to be able to do that. One of the reasons this case is gathering so much attention is because we are not at war with Venezuela. As you said, President Trump has declared the border emergency to be a, quote, invasion. But invasions have always been interpreted as military attacks by nation states, not by some immigrants crossing the border. So the legality of this action is highly questionable. And then to do the other thing that we have seen, which is to disregard a verbal order because it wasn't in writing, is just nonsense. Judges give verbal orders all the time and they're absolutely binding on litigants.

David Farenthal (23:57)

Well, since you brought it up, let's listen to more from today's White House briefing.

Jonathan Capehart (24:04)

But what about the verbal order, which of course carries the same legal weight as a written order and said for the planes to turn around if they were in the. Well, there's actually quite about whether a verbal order carries the same weight as a legal order as a written order. And our lawyers are determined to ask and answer those questions in court.

David Farenthal (24:21)

Now, Barb, you sort of talked about this, you know, this distinction between written orders and oral orders, but I wonder if you have more to say on that. I'd love to hear it. But also, what do you make of their rationalization that the planes were already in international waters? So. Oops.

Jonathan Capehart (24:41)

Yeah. So first, if I were to walk into a court and have a judge direct me to do something verbally that did not get included in his written order, I would absolutely comply with that. And if I didn't, I would be expected to be called on the mat and have my bar license under review. So it is absolutely a binding order, even though it's not written, it's on the record, it is transcribed. So that part of it strikes me as utter nonsense. And then this idea that the plaintiff had already left, the reason that matters is that anyone who is within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, physically present here, is entitled to constitutional protections. That includes the right to due process. So even if these men were ultimately deportable, that may be the case. But it could also be the case that they are not 14 or over, which is required by the statute, that they are not indeed Venezuelan, that they are not indeed members of this gang, or that they're even potentially US Citizens. We don't know any of that because they never got a hearing. And that's the purpose of having a hearing in these cases. And so the idea that, oops, the planes have already left means that there could be somebody on that plane who has fits one of those categories. And all of them have been denied their due process rights. And so the idea that the planes lost jurisdiction once they cleared U.S. airspace is wrong. Because if there are U.S. officials on those planes, they are subject to the judge's orders. As the judge said, your remedy, if you disagree with me, is to appeal, not to disregard my order.

David Farenthal (26:14)

Barbara McQuaid, thank you as always, for coming to the Last Word and coming up.

Jonathan Capehart (26:19)

Thank you, Jonathan.

David Farenthal (26:20)

And coming up, across the nation, Republicans are running scared from their voters refusing to do town halls and meet with the people facing the consequences of Donald Trump's and Elon Musk's attacks on our government. We'll be joined by one Democrat who is talking to voters. That's next.

Rachel Maddow (26:41)

It's President Trump's first 100 days, and MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it all from the front lines.

David Farenthal (26:49)

What issue matters to you the most?

Rachel Maddow (26:51)

Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the president's policies and promises.

David Farenthal (26:56)

Do you think now that he's pardoned.

Jonathan Capehart (26:58)

Everybody, he can count on this group of people again?

Rachel Maddow (27:01)

Search for Trumpland with Alex Wagner wherever you're listening and follow. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free.

Jonathan Capehart (27:14)

I don't do town halls because I think it's just an opportunity for people to yell at their member of Congress.

David Farenthal (27:22)

It's hard out there for elected Republicans like Virginia Fox of North Carolina. Between Elon Musk and Donald Trump chainsawing the federal government, the stock market hit from Trump's trade wars and fears of cuts to Social Security and Medicare, voters are Making it clear that this is not what they voted for.

Barbara McQuaid (27:42)

I was proud to vote recently for.

Tulsi Gabbard (27:44)

The House budget resolution which provides the framework. Yep. And you wonder why folks don't want to do these town halls.

David Farenthal (28:04)

But Democrats are more than happy to hear from voters, including our next guest, Congressman Paul Tonka, who held a town hall tonight in Schenectady, New York. Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Paul Tonka of New York. He serves on the Energy and Commerce Committee. Congressman, what did you hear from your constituents at today's town hall?

Barbara McQuaid (28:25)

Well, they're certainly very angry and frightened by the fact that someone that has not been elected who happens to be the richest man in the world is taking a chainsaw against programs like Medicaid, Social Security, education. They want to know that Congress is involved. And the circumvention of Congress and the House of Representatives, where I serve, is a very telling aspect of this administration. We need to do this effort for efficiency in a way that is a collaborative, that assigns the responsibilities of the power of the purse with the House of Representatives and act accordingly. And they're angry about that. They're frightened. There are concerns that people have with Medicaid being slashed to the tune of $880 billion, if not 1.5 trillion. They think that there's a great bit of pain and consequence coming with the efforts being made right now by the Trump and Musk team. That is really unwelcomed.

David Farenthal (29:28)

Congressman Tonko, what do you make of the latest NBC News poll showing the Democratic Party's popularity is at a record low?

Barbara McQuaid (29:39)

I think there needs to be a stronger message. I think there needs to be a forcefulness about, you know, the core soul of this party, which is about working families, which is about providing for a quality of life, making certain that there are job opportunities that pay well, provide benefits and that they can retire in comfort. And that's the sole message, I think, of the party. And we need to echo that message, especially in these troubling times where these efforts that range from Social Security to Medicare to Medicaid that have been part of the Democratic Party and its principles are maintained and underpinned so that they're there for future generations.

David Farenthal (30:21)

Congressman Tonko, you talked about the $880 billion in spending, as you say, it could be as high as $1.5 trillion cuts to Medicaid. What do you tell voters who are worried about those potential cuts to Medicaid?

Barbara McQuaid (30:40)

Well, we let them know that we're doing everything we can from hosting these town halls, and I think they're important. The people's voices need to be heard, especially in this really chaotic situation where we find a trifecta of Republican leadership and a denouncement, a disregard for the Constitution and the lack of rule of law. So I think we tell them to continue to raise their voices, attend these efforts that really speak forcefully to the actions being taken in Washington, that they're unacceptable and that we'll continue to raise our voices in Washington and use the power of the public to reinforce that message and to continue to raise efforts through the litigation on a number of these issues challenging the outcome. We've been successful to a degree to this point, but there's a lot of work ahead of us, and the real efforts are coming before us now as we attempt to put the next budget together.

David Farenthal (31:39)

One more question for you, Congressman Tonko. Are voters feeling that Trump is not delivering on lower prices? What are your constituents telling you in that regard?

Barbara McQuaid (31:50)

Well, they certainly want us to tackle inflation. They want us to lower costs. They want us to provide for a better outcome, a better quality of life. They don't believe they're getting that from this administration. And it's promises made and promises not kept. And, you know, the focus hasn't been on the economy or lowering costs or addressing inflation. It's been on issues of, you know, addressing Greenland and purchasing Greenland and making Canada our next state and, you know, renaming the Gulf of Mexico. These are not what the people wanted. These are not the priorities they expressed during this campaign. And this is an utter failure. So walking away from the wishes of the people and then carving deeply into programs that really have been the standard of care, health care that is so much an essential right, is being threatened today because of that. Huge acts taken to Medicaid, which will be very, very painful, unrealistic, what they've assigned us. I serve on the Budget Committee along with Energy and Commerce, and I watched 32amendments offered by the Democrats, all rejected, to make this budget bill a better bill. And that failure, again is just another repeat of not allowing the voices of everyone in Congress to be heard.

David Farenthal (33:09)

Congressman Paul Tonko of New York, thank you very much for coming to the Last Word.

Barbara McQuaid (33:13)

Jonathan, a pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity.

David Farenthal (33:16)

And coming up, a physical reminder of our nation's struggle to find racial equality is being destroyed. But the legacy of the civil rights heroes who started that fight remains as long as we choose to remember it. That's next. When you see something that is not right, you must say something, you must do something. Those were the marching orders that the civil rights icon Congressman John Lewis left us in a New York Times piece published after his death. When you see something that is not right, you must say something. You must do something. Democracy is not a state. It is an act. A month before he died of panCreatic cancer in 2020, I visited Black Lives Matter Plaza with Congressman Lewis, who was beaten by Alabama state troopers after crossing the Edmund Pettus Bridge in 1965, an event that hastened the passage of the Voting Rights Act. Five months later, the man who helped move America to live up to its founding ideals wanted to see the place where the next generation symbolically grabbed the baton in our never ending relay race to reach its utopian finish line. D.C. mayor Muriel Bowser commissioned BLM Plaza, the public art installation through the city's Murals DC program in response to Donald Trump's nationally televised bullying of her residents. That part of 16th street led directly to the White House, then occupied by a first term Trump, where federal officers used tear gas on peaceful protesters nearby. These protesters were demonstrating against the recorded slow motion Murder in May 2020 of George Floyd under the knee of Derek Chauvin, the Minneapolis police officer who rested himself on Floyd's neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds. Mayor Bowser then made the mural permanent, a permanent concrete monument. Or so we thought. My walk from the office to my weekly haircut takes me past the busy corner of K and 16th Streets. I usually look to the left to take in the view of the White House and the bold yellow concrete monument of Black Lives Matter Plaza, but on this day my view was blocked by dump trucks and other equipment. The normal sounds of traffic were interrupted by the urgent staccato of jackhammers. The process of erasing BLM Plaza was underway. On my return to the office, I went to see the destruction with my own eyes. The tack, tack, tack of the hydraulic hammer was not just an aural assault on the senses, it was a painful metaphor for America in a second Trump administration that is fewer than 100 chaotic days old. Since January 20, it has been as though the nation has been assaulted by the constant tack, tack, tack of a hydraulic hammer in the hands of someone intent on destruction. Donald Trump has signed executive orders that have ground up diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives in the public and private sectors, scrubbed government websites of information and upended the eight decade old American led Western Alliance. Elon Musk, an unelected multi billionaire, is laying waste to the federal government and its workforce by issuing the hydraulic hammer for an indiscriminate wrecking ball. Media organizations are settling lawsuits or changing direction in ways that give viewers and readers reason to worry that the free press is buckling under authoritarian pressure or currying authoritarian favor. And Republican members of Congress have moved quickly to act on Trump's campaign promises of revenge and intimidation. Georgia Congressman Andrew Clyde threatened millions of dollars in transportation funding if the district did not paint over and rename the BLM Plaza the BLM display because the Constitution gives Congress the ultimate authority over anything the district does. His threat wasn't hollow. During a television interview this month, Mayor Bowser told me her decision to remove BLM Plaza was made before Congressman Clyde's intimidation. But the mayor added, when I'm talking to Republican members of Congress in the.

Jonathan Capehart (38:02)

White House, I can't start the conversation talking about Black Lives Matter Plaza when we need to be talking about $8 billion of Medicaid cuts that could affect the district.

David Farenthal (38:13)

Black Lives Matter plaza, created in June 2020, didn't make vehicular sense. It was in the middle of town on a busy part of 16th Street. It reduced the thoroughfare to one lane of traffic and no parking. But it made symbolic sense while standing on BLM Plaza. After my haircut, the tack tack, tack of digging it up took me back to one of the great honors of my life, visiting Black Lives Matter Plaza with Congressman Lewis on a Sunday morning. After viewing the site from a rooftop, Congressman Lewis stood on the bold B to pose for a photograph. I moved out of the way so the photographer perched on the truck in front of him could get the shot from my side position. Lewis, arm crossed stance as he looked up at the lens in the distance, appropriately made him look like a giant. He was a visual reminder of how far we've come and how far we still have to go. When John Lewis died, the nation's streets were still roiled with protests over George Floyd's murder. And those marching orders he left us are even more urgent today. When you see something that is not right, you must say something. You must do something. With so much not right in America today, it's time we emulate Congressman Lewis. It's time to get into some good trouble. Still ahead, Trump is expected to speak tomorrow with Vladimir Putin, who is a good friend, according to Tulsi Gabbard. That's next.

Jacob Soboroff (40:02)

As a candidate, you said you would.

Jonathan Capehart (40:04)

Have this war settled in 24 hours.

David Farenthal (40:07)

Well, I was being a little bit.

Barbara McQuaid (40:08)

Sarcastic when I said that.

David Farenthal (40:11)

Donald Trump plans to speak with Russian dictator Vladimir Putin by phone tomorrow to discuss the 30 day ceasefire deal that Putin rejected last week. But new NBC News Polling shows Trump's view on issues surrounding Ukraine and Russia are not aligned with most Americans. Starting with Americans absolutely reject Vladimir Putin. 81% disapprove of him. That is an astonishing number. Almost nothing in American politics polls with such unanimity. So every time Trump flatters and praises Putin, he's taking a position against 81% of the country. Make of that what you will. The NBC News poll shows nearly half of Americans, 49%, say President Trump favors Russia more than Ukraine in the war between the two countries. Ukraine, Ukrainian President Zelensky, and NATO all had a net positive rating from Americans. Joining US now, Michael McFaul, who served as the US ambassador to Russia from 2012 to 2014. He is an MSNBC International analyst. Ambassador, always good to see you. Tomorrow's call will be a test. Will Trump push back on Putin the way he did against Zelensky?

Tulsi Gabbard (41:29)

No, of course not. Well, let me be more specific. I don't know, but history would suggest that he's not going to do so, because every single time he's negotiated with Putin about anything, he's given Putin everything he wants. He said to Putin, his team at least have said that Ukraine has to give territory. Ukraine can't be in NATO. We're not gonna use our troops as part of a peacekeeping operation. So all carrots. All carrots. We even voted with the Russians and the North Koreans and a few other rogue states against a resolution in Ukraine. Think about that for a minute. What a reversal of American place in the world. China abstained on that, but for the Ukrainians, it's all pressure. It's all sticks. Cutting off military assistance, cutting off intelligence. They had to sign this agreement, this ceasefire. They were pressured to do so. And I think we'll cheer if Putin does as well. But that's just the beginning of what I think will be a very long process of trying to keep it something more secure and more stable in the long term.

David Farenthal (42:34)

Let me get your thoughts on this. In an interview today, Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabber said this about Trump and Putin. We have two leaders of two great countries who are very good friends and very focused on how we can strengthen the shared objectives and shared interests. Gabbard is saying out loud that US And Russia relations are a shared mission. How dangerous is that?

Tulsi Gabbard (43:01)

It's very dangerous because we have no shared mission with Putin. We need to stop Putin. If Putin is allowed to annex territory in Ukraine, that sends it a very dangerous precedent, not just in Europe, but in Asia and around the world. And even here in North America. Number two, I worked in the government for five years with President Obama, and we always said we are here to defend and advance America's national interests. If talking to the Russians does that, that's a means to that ends, but it's not the objective of diplomacy. And that's what Trump gets so wrong. He thinks having a good friend in Moscow is the goal of his diplomacy. But if you're not getting anything that are good for the American people, it's not a good move. Especially when 81% or 85%, like you said, I've never seen a polling number like that in America in a long time. When we don't trust that guy, you gotta get something out of talking to them. Just having a good phone call is not enough.

David Farenthal (44:01)

Ambassador Michael McFaul, thank you. That is tonight's last word as President.

Rachel Maddow (44:06)

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