Fmr. AG Holder: Courts must stop NC GOP judge from stealing election

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell – Episode: Fmr. AG Holder: Courts must stop NC GOP judge from stealing election

Release Date: February 7, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O’Donnell delves into a series of pressing political and governmental issues that are shaping the American landscape. Drawing from his extensive experience in politics and media, O’Donnell engages with guests, including prominent journalists, former government officials, and legal experts, to unpack the complexities surrounding government integrity, electoral integrity, and the influence of powerful figures like Elon Musk and Donald Trump on American institutions.

Elon Musk’s Intrusion into Government Systems

The episode opens with Ali Velshi discussing concerns about Elon Musk’s involvement in government systems. Velshi highlights the critical importance of maintaining secure and reliable operations within government infrastructures, such as air traffic control, which handles approximately 45,000 flights daily. He emphasizes, “Please don't touch the air traffic control. They actually work properly” (00:34).

Velshi criticizes Musk and his associates for unauthorized attempts to access and potentially disrupt government operations. He warns against allowing inexperienced individuals, including a 19-year-old with the handle "big balls," to influence systems that manage millions of passengers. Velshi asserts, “Wake up, America. This all seems like a real bad idea” (05:00).

USAID Layoffs and Legal Action

The discussion transitions to the impending layoffs at the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), where up to 14,000 employees are at risk. Ali Velshi notes the lack of transparency and support for these workers, stating, “We don’t know who they are and what they do because they just work in the background and they keep us safe” (04:20).

Rachel Maddow introduces the legal battle against former President Donald Trump and his administration’s actions against USAID employees. She explains that unions representing USAID workers are suing Trump for attacks on the agency, following revelations by The New York Times about planned layoffs. Maddow underscores the judiciary's role in safeguarding democratic processes, highlighting that courts are the last resort in stopping such executive overreach.

Judicial Intervention and Birthright Citizenship

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Trump and Musk’s attempts to undermine birthright citizenship. Maddow reports that a federal judge blocked Trump’s effort to end this constitutional right, quoting the judge: “The fact that the government has cloaked what is effectively a constitutional amendment under the guise of an executive order is equally unconstitutional” (15:35).

Lawrence O’Donnell emphasizes the judiciary's stance against these maneuvers, stating, “Federal judges, at least at this stage, are agreeing. This is not the way you do it. This is not how you proceed” (44:35).

Introduction of the Taxpayer Data Protection Act

In response to the ongoing government overreach, House Democrats have introduced the Taxpayer Data Protection Act. Rachel Maddow explains, “We are introducing the Taxpayer Data Protection Act to shield the American people from this out-of-control power grab” (06:02). The Act aims to protect financial, personal, medical, and confidential information of American taxpayers from unauthorized access and misuse.

North Carolina Election Controversy

Former Attorney General Eric Holder’s op-ed is a focal point of the episode. Holder condemns the actions of Republican Judge Griffin, who is attempting to overturn the election results in North Carolina by invalidating over 60,000 ballots. Holder writes, “Any judge operating in an independent and fair manner would maximize the chance that all of North Carolinians' ballots are counted and ensure that the electoral results reflect the decision of the state's citizens” (12:24).

Interview with Associate Justice Alison Riggs

Allison Riggs, Associate Justice of the North Carolina Supreme Court, joins the discussion to defend the integrity of the electoral process. She passionately states, “We cannot get outrage fatigue. The stakes are too high” (12:24). Riggs emphasizes the importance of upholding democracy by ensuring every vote is counted, warning against attempts to disenfranchise voters for political gain.

Federal Workforce Purge in Virginia

The episode shifts focus to Virginia, where Donald Trump and Elon Musk are orchestrating a purge of federal civil servants, including nearly 150,000 workers in Virginia. Abigail Spanberger, a former CIA officer and current candidate for governor of Virginia, discusses the real-life impacts of these policies. She explains, “These are people who are driven to serve a mission... They work day in and day out to avoid tragedy” (21:08). Spanberger highlights the critical role of federal workers in maintaining national security and public services, and the detrimental effects of mass layoffs on these essential functions.

Victoria Elliott’s Investigation on Musk’s Team

Victoria Elliott from Wired provides an in-depth analysis of Elon Musk’s team, referred to as "Dogebro," and their unauthorized access to government systems. Elliott reveals that at least one member, Marco Ellez, held administrator-level privileges, allowing him to make significant changes to Treasury Department systems. She states, “What you're saying is there's a difference between someone being able to look at the code to audit some of these systems versus someone being in there and possibly being able to change payments” (31:00).

Elliott’s reporting uncovers that six young men, aged between 19 and 24, with minimal government experience, are central to Musk’s Department of Government Efficiency project. These individuals hold nebulous job titles and have questionable backgrounds, including associations with convicted hackers and Russian-registered domains. Elliott warns of the potential risks posed by such inexperienced operators having access to sensitive government data.

Expert Analysis with Tom Nichols and Jennifer Rubin

Lawrence O’Donnell engages in a discussion with Tom Nichols, a professor emeritus at the U.S. Naval War College, and Jennifer Rubin, co-founder and editor-in-chief of The Contrarian. They analyze the broader implications of Trump’s and Musk’s actions, suggesting that the motivation behind these efforts is revenge against the political establishment rather than genuine policy concerns.

Nichols remarks, “They want to be sitting in those same offices. So they're going to cause a lot of havoc and disruption” (42:21). Rubin adds that the federal courts’ temporary restraining orders signify a judicial recognition of the lawlessness permeating these efforts. O’Donnell concludes that the judiciary’s intervention is crucial in maintaining the rule of law against such unprecedented challenges.

Conclusion

The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell masterfully navigates through a labyrinth of governmental and political turmoil, highlighting the intersection of power, legality, and democracy. The episode underscores the essential role of the judiciary in preserving democratic integrity, the dangers of unchecked influence by powerful individuals like Elon Musk and Donald Trump, and the urgent need for legislative measures to protect taxpayer data and prevent electoral manipulation.

Notable quotes throughout the episode reinforce the gravity of the situation:

• Ali Velshi: “This all seems like a real bad idea” (05:00).
• Rachel Maddow: “The rule of law is, according to him, something to navigate around or simply ignore” (08:00).
• Allison Riggs: “The stakes are too high” (12:24).
• Victoria Elliott: “What you're saying is there's a difference between someone being able to look at the code to audit some of these systems versus someone being in there and possibly being able to change payments” (31:00).
• Tom Nichols: “They want to be sitting in those same offices. So they're going to cause a lot of havoc and disruption” (42:21).

This episode serves as a critical reminder of the fragility of democratic institutions and the constant vigilance required to protect them from internal and external threats.

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Timestamps Reference:

• [00:34] - Ali Velshi on air traffic control.
• [04:20] - USAID layoffs discussion.
• [05:00] - Velshi warns against Musk’s actions.
• [06:02] - Introduction of the Taxpayer Data Protection Act.
• [08:00] - Rachel Maddow on the rule of law.
• [12:24] - Eric Holder’s Op-Ed and Justice Riggs interview.
• [15:35] - Judge blocking birthright citizenship.
• [21:08] - Abigail Spanberger on federal workforce purge.
• [31:00] - Victoria Elliott on Musk’s team access.
• [42:21] - Analysis with Tom Nichols and Jennifer Rubin.

Transcript

[Ali Velshi]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows Now, ad free + ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Felshey Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Now it's time for the Last Word, where Ally Velshi is in for Lawrence O'Donnell tonight.

[Rachel Maddow]

Good evening, Ali.

[Ali Velshi]

Good evening, my friends. Nice to have you on Blue Sky. It's fun interacting there. When you started the show an hour ago, you've always got my attention. But you started talking about car sales and I thought to myself, did Mattow just go all Velshy on us talking economics in the show? So that was very compelling. There was a lot of stuff in that show. But one notable thing you talked about when talking about government and why it's important to us, you talked about the air traffic control. We have 45,000 flights a day, 2.9 million passengers, and at any peak hour, about 6,000 flights in the air. And how often do you and I talk about commercial airplane crashes? Virtually never. Because it works and it's a background app and it doesn't need Elon Musk and his peeps to fix it or make it more efficient. Please don't touch the air traffic control. They actually work properly. And when it doesn't work properly, the NTSB investigates it and we will know the answer to what that problem was and it will not happen again. And that's. And as we are learning more about who exactly is on this little band of juvenile delinquents that Elon Musk is using as his team for doing these unauthorized and in some cases apparently illegal, unauthorized access to all these government systems. The idea that you would let a 19 year old with the online handle, big balls take over the air traffic control system and see what he can do when we've got 3 million people simultaneously in the air at the moment, he's gonna unplug. I just feel like, wake up, America. This all seems like a real bad idea, but this is 50 years of telling people government is bad. Right? Yeah. Who are you standing up for? The 14,000 people laid off at USAID. We don't know who they are and what they do because they just work in the background and they keep us safe and they keep the world safe. But this is when government works. You don't know about it. You don't have to talk about it all the time. So our work is ahead of us, my friend. Nice to see you. Have a great night and I'll see you tomorrow. Thanks, Ali. Thanks. As Rachel said, it's been nearly a week since Elon Musk and his crew entered the Treasury Department, gaining access to our most personal information. A billionaire whom nobody elected, illegally accessing American Social Security numbers, bank account information, birth dates, phone numbers. Not one Republican lawmaker stood up and said no, not one. No one said stop. So in the face of complete Republican capitulation, the last resort to stop is the federal court. Tonight, unions representing United States Agency for International Development Employees, USAID employees, are suing Donald Trump and his administration for their constant attacks on that federal agency. This comes after the New York Times revealed the Trump administration's plan to lay off Thousands up to 14,000 USAID employees. Earlier today, a federal judge issued a court order limiting Elon Musk and his band in their access to systems within the Treasury Bureau's, the Treasury Department's Bureau of the Fiscal Service. The order grants so called read only access to two of Musk's associates at the treasury, quote, as needed for the performance of their duties while the case proceeds in court, end quote. Associates is a generous term. Let's talk about one of those associates. He's 25 years old. He resigned tonight because he was linked to a social media account with a history of deeply racist posts. And we're gonna have more on that coming up. It's quite a story. Democratic attorneys general said today that they plan to sue the Trump treasury over, quote, a level of access for unauthorized individuals which is unlawful, unprecedented and unacceptable. Doge Department of Government Efficiency has no authority to access this information which they explicitly sought in order to block critical payments that millions of Americans rely on, payments that support health care, childcare and other essential programs, end quote. Also today, a federal judge blocked Donald Trump and Elon Musk's push to buy out federal workers after the federal workers union filed a lawsuit. And that ruling came just hours before tonight's deadline for for employees to accept that deal. A court hearing on that is going to be held on Monday. And in another blow to Donald Trump today, a federal judge, a Reagan appointee, blocked Donald Trump's effort to end birthright citizenship, saying, quote, the fact that the government has cloaked what is effectively a constitutional amendment under the guise of an executive order is equally unconstitutional. It has become ever more apparent that to our president, the rule of law is but an impediment to his policy goals. The rule of law is, according to him, something to navigate around or simply ignore, whether that be for political or personal gain. There are moments in the world's history where people look back and ask, where were the lawyers? Where were the judges? In these moments, the rule of law becomes especially vulnerable. I refuse to let that beacon go dark today. End quote. Donald Trump and Elon Musk's shock and awe efforts over the last 17 days to end birthright citizenship, to freeze payments for grants and other programs, and to gut the federal workforce have stopped so far at the judiciary. It shouldn't have to be this way. Republican lawmakers who believe in the Constitution and I thought stood against government overreach should be outraged. Republican lawmakers who believe in privacy, even their own, should be outraged. Today, House Democrats introduced the Taxpayer Data Protection Act.

[Rachel Maddow]

We are introducing the Taxpayer Data Protection.

[Ali Velshi]

Act to shield the American people from.

[Rachel Maddow]

This out of control power grab permanently and to make sure that the financial, personal, medical and confidential information of the.

[Ali Velshi]

American people is protected.

[Rachel Maddow]

What we are seeing unfold is an unlawful power grab by a unelected and unaccountable billionaire puppet master who's pulling the strings of House Republicans and apparently the Trump administration.

[Ali Velshi]

Will any Republican lawmaker stand up and defend protecting the financial, personal, medical and confidential America information of the American people or are they just about protecting Donald Trump and Elon Musk's power right now? Just tonight, Republicans confirmed the architect of Project 2025. Remember that big thing that Donald Trump said he had nothing to do with? They just confirmed the architect of that to be the head of the Office of Management and Budget. Senate Democrats held the floor all night last night to protest Russell Vote's confirmation and reminded us that Russell Vote isn't just some small government number geek. Russell Vogt, the head of the Office of Management and Budget, was at the heart of Donald Trump's first attempt to throw the 2020 election. This is the guy who violated the Impoundment Control act by withholding 214 million appropriated dollars from the soldiers fighting and dying in the trenches of Ukraine against Putin's thug army. It was that stunt that led to the impeachment of President Trump. I asked him, did Joe Biden win the 2020 presidential election? What was his answer? I believe that the 2020 election was rigged. No court has ever believed that people got their bar ticket removed for telling courts falsehoods that the election was rigged. This was the first big lie of the Trump administration and he's not over it and he wants to go and run the Nerve center of omb. Just to understand the nerve center of omb, Office of Management and Budget. That's the White House's budget office. That's where the priorities and policies become law because money is attached to it. Donald Trump and his allies keep pushing this election lie. Donald Trump keeps pushing constitutional boundaries and Republicans are doing nothing about it. In fact, here's Donald Trump at this morning's National Prayer Breakfast. They say, I can't run again.

[Rachel Maddow]

That's the expression, sir.

[Ali Velshi]

Then somebody said, I don't think you can. Oh, that's what we've come to. Donald Trump suggesting he can't be stopped if he unlawfully refuses to leave office. And it gets a laugh from a room filled with religious leaders. Trump says stupid, untrue things all the time. But not one of these supposed moral leaders walked out. Not one of them protested. But all of this, as bad as all of this is, the canary in the coal mine is tonight in North Carolina. The former Attorney General Eric Holder chose to sound the alarm on this issue in today's New York Times. He could have written about Elon Musk marauding at treasury or any of the federal cases, but he chose North Carolina, where it has been three months since the Democratic Justice Alison Riggs won a state Supreme Court seat. But the Republican judge who lost is suing to block her victory from being certified. And the Republican majority on the North Carolina Supreme Court is letting him. Eric Holder didn't sugarcoat what the end game is here. He titled his op ed, the courts must stop this judge from stealing an election. Former Attorney General Eric Holder writes, quote, despite two recounts and the North Carolina State Board of Elections confirming Justice Riggs victory, Judge Griffin sued, insisting that the state Supreme Court block the certification of Justice Riggs reelection and invalidate more than 60,000 valid ballots, a move clearly aimed at installing him as the victor. Ordinarily, a request like this one would be a non starter. That a sitting judge filed this lawsuit in the first place is frankly disturbing. As an officer of the court who has sworn an oath, Judge Griffin has an obligation to protect the electoral process, not to undermine it with a shameless attempt to disenfranchise voters. What's even more distressing, though, is that the North Carolina Supreme Court's Republican majority has allowed such a lawsuit to proceed and in doing so, has stopped the certification of the election results. Federal and state judges across the county, including those affiliated with the Republican Party all the way up to the conservative dominated United States Supreme Court, refused Mr. Trump's demands to throw out Legal ballots. They refuted baseless claims that the presidential race was stolen. None of the courts ultimately stopped any states from certifying election results by their required deadlines. Not one. What's happening in North Carolina, by contrast, should concern all Americans. Any judge operating in an independent and fair manner would maximize the chance that all of North Carolinian's ballots are counted and ensure that the electoral results reflect the decision of the state's citizens, end quote. Joining us now is Allison Riggs, Associate justice of the North Carolina Supreme Court. Justice Riggs, thank you for being with us tonight. Tell me where this stands right now. It was quite remarkable that the former Attorney General would make sure that the country understood how serious a matter this is.

[Rachel Maddow]

Allie, thank you for having me. And thank you for the opportunity to let your viewers know, let people across this country know what's at stake here in North Carolina. This is a judicial race in, in one single state. I can understand why people might not, given what else is going on, the world, in the world, be panicked about this just yet. But this is what we see being employed in courtrooms here in North Carolina right now is, is what we saw in 2020 and 2022, that tactics that weren't successful, but they have the potential to be successful here. And this is a democracy. People in power don't like who wins the election and can decide to just disregard the will of voters. Democracy dies. If people in power can change the rules after an election to say that eligible voters, lawful ballots won't be counted, democracy dies. So we, we have a battle in front of us this week. The fourth Circuit Court of Appeals said we're going to let the state court proceedings play out, but we'll retain the power to examine whether what happens in the state courts would violate federal law or the federal constitution later. What that means for voters is this process is going to be dragged out. It's not going to be over anytime soon. And I need folks to understand that. We can't stop paying attention to this. We cannot get outrage fatigue. The stakes are too high.

[Ali Velshi]

This is an important, important point and there is still work to be done here. This, this thing may drag out, but it's not over. Former attorney general hold ends his op ed like this. He says, quote, we all have an obligation to defend the founding principles of our nation and the courts have a sacred responsibility to uphold voting rights. North Carolinians and all Americans should be watching closely to ensure justice is done here. Four years after America survived a brazen attempt to overturn an election, we must Again, stand firm, protect every ballot, and demand that the will of the people prevails. End quote. This dove deals with exactly what you're saying. You can't have outrage fatigue. Nobody gave you that right. Our ancestors didn't. The enslaved people of America didn't. The immigrants who came here from other countries didn't. Our parents and our grandparents did not give us the right to be fatigued. We'd all like to be. We'd like to be done with this, but we can't be.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah. I mean, what I can say is that I, when I assumed this office, I placed my hand on a Bible and took a solemn oath to maintain and defend the Constitution, not to give up when I got tired, not to give up when it got hard and expensive. And it's gotten that way. And I am certain that the people of North Carolina who elected me to keep my seat because they knew that I would put people over politics, they will not be silenced. Even if this battle is extended. The 65,000 voters who my opponent wants to disenfranchise, including people who voted for him, they will not be silenced. And I will not be silenced. So help me God.

[Ali Velshi]

Oh, this is. This is an interesting point, because if you disenfranchise a voter, you disenfranchise all voters, right? Once you've decided that you choose some and you don't choose others, everybody's vote is invalidated. But at this point, it is designed to be the punishment. Right? The process is designed to be the punishment. You just mentioned it's expensive. You've got to stick with this. But it's meant to be hard to discourage the next person who comes after you.

[Rachel Maddow]

Millions of dollars already. And what I can tell you is the reason I think voters elected me, why I know they elected me, and why North Carolina is making huge strides in the south, is that the people in this state, they know that if the people in power will treat them as collateral damage, then nothing is sacred anymore. Everything around us will crumble if we don't have people in leadership, don't have people on the bench who, above all, are willing to accept the rule of law. And this is a hard fight. We can't do it alone. The stakes are too great. So I encourage your listeners to. To join this fight to understand that this could affect swing districts or swing states all across the country. Voters everywhere hope that. That they'll visit my website rigs for our courts.com to learn more.

[Ali Velshi]

Thank you for being with us. We appreciate it. We will follow this very closely. We'll continue to do so. And the message is out there that all Americans should follow this, regardless of whether they fall under your jurisdiction in North Carolina. Thanks for being with us. Associate Justice Alison Cox of the North Carolina Supreme Court. All right, coming up, Donald Trump and Elon Musk have launched a purge of federal civil servants across the United states, including nearly 150,000 workers in Virginia who are at risk of losing their jobs. Abigail Spanberger, Virginia's former representative and the current candidate for governor, joins us next. Let's rally together as one state and as one people, and let's weather these two storms as we always have and as we always will together. Because in this moment, we will show those who came before us and those who will come after us that this chamber, this body and this state that we understood the assignments. That was a rallying cry from Democratic Governor Wes Moore of Maryland, a state that has one of the largest federal workforces in the country and one of the most important, like the National Security Agency, which collects and analyzes intelligence to keep Americans safe from terrorist attacks. Virginia, home to the CIA, is another huge and hugely important federal workforce, actually the largest in the country. So where's Virginia's governor as his people are under siege from Elon Musk? Right here next to Donald Trump. Yesterday at the White House, Republican Glenn Youngkin backs Donald Trump's plan to cut the federal workforce, including his more than 144,000 constituents who will be part of it. The apolitical civil service is a triumph of democracy. It ensures basically that no matter which party wins the election, the services, the crucial services that the government provides all its citizens continue without interruption. Whether that's something that doesn't maybe feel as important to you, like getting your passport issued or making sure planes don't crash into one another, or counterterrorism, which you don't know is going on all the time. Now, this administration is pushing buyouts on our national security workers, buyouts to workers at the CIA, the nsa, and the Office of National Intelligence, soon to be headed by Tulsi Gabbard. But here's the good news. Voters don't have to wait until the midterms to register their opinions about what Donald Trump and Elon Musk are doing to the government and to our privacy and to our national security. That's because there's a governor's race in Virginia, a big, important Purple State in 271 days. Like all governors in Virginia, Glenn Youngkin is term limited to a single term. And so this is a campaign year. And what with, with what this White House is doing now, that is going to be on the ballot this year. At a town hall this week in Loudoun County, Virginia, hundreds showed up to the point that people were standing in the lobby. One person told a WTOP news reporter, quote, every day for the last week or two, everyone has been scared. Everyone's afraid. Every day the other shoe's going to drop and we're going to get cut. End quote. This isn't just about federal workers and what happens to them. Federal workers are not just a thing. They work for the American people like veterans, like preschoolers, like cancer patients. What happens to all these people? So for the do something folks out there, there is no reason to wait until 2026. The time is now. Joining us now is the candidate for governor of Virginia, Democrat Abigail Spanberger. She's a former CIA officer and a former member of Congress. Great to see you. Thank you for being with us. To you really put flesh on this issue, right? These are real people like you who we don't know about. We don't know about the intelligence officers in this country. We don't know about the people who work for the CIA who are dealing with threats right now. Nor do we know about the air traffic controllers or any of these people. When it works, it works. And we are being given the argument that it's unimportant to continue down the road that we're on.

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, Ali, thank you for having me on. And let me tell you who some of these people are, because they are Virginians, so many of them. They are the nurse at the VA who takes care of our nation's heroes. They are the Social Security employer who ensures that our grandparents get their Social Security checks. They are the law enforcement officers who keep our country safe from terrorist threats the world over. They are the intelligence community members who spend every single day working to keep their neighbors safe. They are the air traffic controllers who work day in and day out to avoid tragedy. They are moms and dads and community members and they are Virginians. And this is, yes, about them. And for them it's a kitchen table issue. But the impact, the idea that we would have a president and a governor who's standing by as said president says we're going to push them out of the workforce. And this is a kitchen table issue in Virginia, but the impact is substantial across the entirety of the country.

[Ali Velshi]

Talk to me about somebody asked me this today. We have a low unemployment rate in this country. Places like the CIA and the FBI. You don't train these people in a week. These are, these are hard working people. What does this actually do to national security? You get to give all these people their buyouts. They leave. In theory, then what do we just, we just have fewer of these people around. We've just decided there are too many CIA analysts and employees talking about the.

[Rachel Maddow]

Virginians who serve every day at CIA. And I'm a former CIA officer, I worked undercover for my entire time with the agency. These are people with language skills. These are people with specific, well honed, skills of focus and a devotion to national security. There are people who could choose to have jobs in the private sector that, yes, are far more lucrative, but they are people who are driven to serve a mission. And year after year after year, not only do they bring their skills and their talents to the cause, to the mission of keeping the American people safe, but they learn and build upon those skills. You do not become an intelligence officer overnight, just as those who were investigating everything from terrorism to bank robberies to large scale fraud cases learned that skill overnight. And so the reality is that what is happening, the chaos that we are seeing out of Washington, the chaos coming out of this administration, it is, yes, impactful to the Virginians that I have served and look forward to serving again as governor, but it is impactful to Americans across the country. The thing about the intelligence community is ideally, when things are going right, you never know what they're doing.

[Ali Velshi]

Yeah, that's right. As for so many other government applications, here's one that maybe people don't associate with the federal government. Community health centers. Community health centers receive funding from the federal government. Much of that funding has been involved in this freeze. This is where people get their health care. This is actually a life and death matter. So is national security and intelligence. But, but people may think that's distant and removed. Community health centers are not distant and removed from their lives.

[Rachel Maddow]

As I've been traveling across Virginia in my campaign for governor, from Southwest Virginia to Hampton Roads this past weekend, southwest the weekend before. This is an issue that people have brought to me. The reality is community health centers, they serve communities from the most rural parts of Virginia, across the entirety of our state. They deliver health care in places where people need it. And what we are seeing is there are at this point currently, by the numbers, more than 100 health centers in Virginia that don't know how they're going to keep their staff on. They have not received the funding that they need. And the implications of this are this chaos coming out of the White House it is dire. It is absolutely dire. And this is the impact we are seeing here in Virginia. I'm hearing about it in every corner of our commonwealth and the sad reality is I know that it's happening across the rest of the country as well.

[Ali Velshi]

Abigail Spamberger, thanks for joining us tonight. We appreciate it. Abigail Spanberger is a former United States congressman, congresswoman, and a former CIA officer and is running for governor of Virginia. All right, coming up, our next guest is trying to expose new information about President, well, co President Musk's minions who have their hands on America's information. We have no idea what his minions are doing with the information or how it could be used, but Wired's Victoria Elliott will tell us what she and her colleagues have learned next. The last thing you want to hear when you need your auto insurance most is a robot with countless irrelevant menu options. Which is why with USAA auto insurance, you'll get great service that is easy and reliable, all at the touch of a button. Get a quote today. Restrictions apply. Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere. Watch your favorite shows live, read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app get the all new CNBC Sport Newsletter. Alex Sherman brings you exclusive interviews and the biggest news impacting the world of sports, business and media all straight to your inbox. Sign up for [e-mail] sportnewsletter today the new Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessant, defended Elon Musk and the caliber of his minions who've gained access to several agencies allowing them to see sensitive personal data of millions of Americans. These are highly trained professionals. This is not some roving band going around doing things. This is methodical and it is going to yield big savings. We have no idea that that's true. We have no idea what they're doing or plan to do with the data or where it's going or how it can be used in the future or even by whom. But we're learning more about Elon Musk's team of cronies thanks to a body of important reporting from our next guest, Victoria Elliott at Wired. In her latest reporting tonight, she reports that claims from the Trump White House and the Treasury Department that Elon Musk's Doge team had, quote, read only access to the Treasury Department's payment systems are lies. Quote at the time these statements were made, a Doge operative did in fact have Wright access. Not only that, but sources tell Wired that at least one note was added to treasury records indicating that he no longer had write access before senior IT staff stated that it was actually rescinded. End quote Vittoria previously reported that that engineer in question, 25 year old Marco Ellez, had administrator level privileges giving him, quote, the power to log into servers through secure Shel, navigate the entire file system, change user permissions and delete or modify critical files. That could allow someone to bypass the security measures of and potentially cause irreversible changes to the very systems they have access to, end quote. Now the Wall Street Journal reports that Marco Ellez resigned today, quote after he was linked to a deleted social media account that advocated racism and eugenics. Just for the record, I was racist before it was cool. The account posted in July. Victoria Elliott also details more about the inexperienced young men who are gaining access. Quote wired has identified six young men, all apparently between the ages of 19 and 24 according to public databases, their online presences and other records, who have little to no government experience and are now playing critical roles in Musk's so called Department of Government Efficiency project. The engineers all hold nebulous job titles within Doge and at least one appears to be working as a volunteer, end quote Four of them have a suite level clearance at the General Services Administration leading one source to quote worry that the new teams could bypass the regular security clearance protocols to access the Agency's Sensitive Compartmented Information facility end quote One member of Musk's team of DOGE Bros rated this sensitive rating. The sensitive data is a 19 year old man named Edward Korostein who Wired reports started a company, Tesla Sexy LLC that controls at least two Russian registered web domains and worked at a startup that hired convicted hackers. Quote Another domain is under course of Time's control is faster pw the website is currently inactive but an archived version from 10-25-2022 shows content in Chinese that stated that the service helped provide multiple encrypted cross border networks end quote Domains in Russia content in Chinese access to critical information. What could possibly go wrong? Joining us now, Vitoria Elliott, platforms and power reporter at Wired Vittoria, thank you to you and your your team for the very detailed reporting that Wired is doing on this. Because people like me, I didn't, I didn't understand it. I'm not sure I still fully understand it, but you've done really good reporting. Let's start with this one distinction. Read only access versus administrator privileges or write access. There seems to Be some discussion about who had what. I want you to tell us about what that is and whether it matters.

[Victoria Elliott]

Sure. So read only access is when you can see something. You know, sometimes if you're on a Google Doc and you're able to see the document but you can't edit it, that is the regular person experience of read only access. So you know what's in there, you can see the information, you can't change it. And when you have read write access, that means you can both read what's in a thing, whether that's a document or in this case an entire system, and you can also change it. And so this is a really big deal because it's, you know, already pretty sensitive to be able to see some of the code or to see some of this information. But you know, if we're going to take the DOGE initiative at its word, that what they're trying to do here is to audit these systems to try to audit some of the payments to find government waste, then being able to have some level of read access might be a way to do that. But then when we're actually looking at, well, why would they need read and write access? You know, what is it that they need to change here? If really what they're coming in to try and do is identify maybe what they consider to be wasteful spending. And I think the area in which, you know, we can see this most critically is the way the Trump administration and DOGE has approached, approached usaid, where they've taken a federal agency established by Congress and they've sort of said, we're going to get rid of all these people, we're going to turn off funding to the programs, even though Congress has mandated that funding. Congress has set aside the budget for that because that is the role of Congress. And now, of course, USAID is basically being nearly collapsed as an agency. And so I think when we're talking about this read write access thing, you know, it sounds kind of maybe not like a big deal because it has this sort of technical terminology. But really when it comes down to it, what you're saying is there's a difference between someone being able to look at the code to audit some of these systems versus someone being in there and possibly being able to change payments, to delay payments and to shut off the tap entirely. And we don't necessarily know what exactly the changes were made. But Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo did his own reporting that followed ours, that found that there were people who were very, very concerned at treasury because there were being changes being made. And they were really afraid that this new person coming in did not fully understand the systems and could have caused havoc.

[Ali Velshi]

So this is an interesting point. Something you write is that these young inexperienced engineers. That's the title, the young inexperienced engineers aiding Elon Musk's government takeover. Here's what you write. Both Akash Bhabha and Edward Korestein are listed in the internal Office of Personal Management records as being being reviewed by Wired as experts at opm, reporting directly to Amanda Scales, its new chief of staff. Employees at the General Service Administration tell Wired that Corestein has appeared on calls where workers were made to go over code they had written and justified their jobs. Wired previously reported that Korestein was added to a call with GSA staff members using a non government Gmail address. Employees were not given an explanation as to who he was or why he was on the calls. This is important. We sort of trust that the government employs people, gives them necessary security clearances, that they, we understand what their intent is. You make it very clear in your reporting you have no idea what the intent is behind any of this stuff, but nor apparently do the employees who are being audited or investigated by these people. We just don't know. And these people are from the outside. And there's just no clarity about this at all.

[Victoria Elliott]

Well, and I think that's incredibly important because, you know, in his support for Donald Trump and then, you know, in that transition period where Doge first really became a clear sort of priority for the administration coming in, Musk was very clear that he said, you know, he wanted the new Trump administration via Doge to be the most transparent government that the US had ever had. But I think what we're seeing is that that's not the case. And, you know, I don't blame necessarily average Americans for not knowing who everyone is in the civil service. The whole point of having an apolitical civil service, that you don't know that your Social Security check is going to arrive somewhat on time, your tax returns are going to arrive on time, your ability to get on a plane and be safe is going to generally be the same no matter who sits in the Oval Office. But I think the thing that's most concerning is that even people in these positions at these agencies who are highly qualified, who have been vetted, who are in positions where they may have access to sensitive information and have gone through months or years of training and vetting to get to that place, are suddenly in a situation where they don't even know who's making decisions at their own agency. You know, it's one thing to maybe not have everyone in the general public know who's making every single decision at an agency, but it's another thing for people at those agencies themselves to not.

[Ali Velshi]

Even have that insight. That's the people on the call themselves not knowing who this person is or why they're there. Something else you wrote which I thought, which really caught my attention. You said last week, federal employees across the government received emails encouraging them to turn in colleagues who they believe to be working on diversity, equity and inclusion and access initiatives. DEIA to the Office of Personal Management versus the email address DEIA truthpm.gov this reminded me, says Kelman, of the Soviet Stalinism, of turning in your friends to the government. Talk to me about the relationship between that, the policy dei, anti DEI stuff that's going on and this gathering of information or somehow being in the systems. Is there any relationship between the two?

[Victoria Elliott]

I mean, again, we do not have a lot of transparency in how DOGE is operating throughout these agencies. But I do think that, you know, it does seem, particularly with their access at the Office of Personnel Management, which for people who don't know is sort of like the HR function of the government. You know, I think it is becoming clear that they probably have access to a lot of the data around federal employees and particularly, you know, having people turned in by their colleagues, although, you know, hopefully that is not happening at a large scale. You know, it is possible that they might be able to cross reference that data with other data they might have access to. But again, we don't know. This is speculation because DOGE has not been transparent about what it's doing in these agencies. You know, again, they've said they're, they're in coming in to cut waste to find efficiencies. And I, you know, I don't think anyone on any side of the aisle would say that every single dollar that the US Spends is perfectly spent or perfectly accounted for. But this is obviously not exactly by protocol.

[Ali Velshi]

But we wouldn't get further with this unless we have the kind of reporting that you're doing. So I'm grateful to it for it because we have to know what, what we're talking about in order to decide where we stand on it. Vittoria, thanks to you and your colleagues for excellent work on this. Vittoria Elliott is the platforms and power reporter at Wired. I'm going to discuss more of this with Tom Nichols and Jennifer Rubin right after the break. It's President Trump's first 100 days. And MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it all from the front lines. What issue matters to you the most? Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the president's policies and promises.

[Rachel Maddow]

Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody, he can count on this group of people again?

[Ali Velshi]

Search for Trumpland with Alex Wagner wherever you're listening and follow subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free. The first 100 days, bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week. Now is the time. So we're gonna do it, providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Rachel Maddow]

How do we strategically align ourselves to.

[Ali Velshi]

This moment of information, this moment of.

[Rachel Maddow]

Transition in our country?

[Ali Velshi]

The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts, video highlights from your favorite shows. I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here. Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for MSNBC [e-mail] all right. Joining me now, Tom Nichols, professor emeritus at the U.S. naval War College and staff writer at the Atlantic. And Jennifer Rubin, co founder and editor in chief of the Contrarian. She's also an MSNBC political analyst. You both know me for a long time. I'm rarely speechless. Tom. I'm kind of speechless. I mean, I don't even know. Just take over and tell me what you think, because this is wild. What I think is that the treasury secretary said this isn't just roving bands of people doing whatever they want. Well, it sure seems that way. And I think when I'm trying to make sense of this, the thing that always, I think, helps me make the most sense of it is that Donald Trump ran for president for revenge and to stay out of jail, and now doesn't really care if he sets his supporters loose on the federal government because he doesn't care about policy. He doesn't care about making life better for people. He's going to let folks go in and break things because his main task running for election has already been accomplished with Musk and these interns, kids, whatever, they are following him around from agency to agency. I think the point is to break things and then replace the people that are in them. You know, these are folks that always talk about how bad elitism is. What they really mean is they don't happen to like the current elites and they want to be the new elites. They want to be sitting in those same offices. So they're going to cause a lot of havoc and disruption because, you know, because they. That's their form of revenge on the establishment that they feel has cut them out and looked down on them. Jennifer, I think Victoria made a really good point that there's nobody in America who thinks your tax dollars shouldn't be spent more effectively and that maybe we should be looking at everything in the civil service. But that's not what. That's what the name says they do, but it doesn't seem to be what they're doing. And people have told me this is the thing that seems to scare the most about what's going on right now. This band of roving minions getting into our government services and our payrolls and our payment systems is very deeply alarming. It's very reminiscent of other parts of the world that are not America.

[Rachel Maddow]

And it's so alarming that judges have been issuing TROs, temporary restraining orders. Treasury. The access to the information in treasury has been cut off. Only one of those gentlemen, the one who left obviously doesn't have access. But the one who's left, he only has read only access now. And other people only have access who are in the treasury with a need to know basis. The fork in the road memo, the deferred compensation, that's on hold thanks to a federal court release and gathering of the names of FBI agents that's on hold because of inaction in federal court. So for all of these shenanigans and all these attempts, federal judges, at least at this stage, are agreeing. This is not the way you do it. This is not how you proceed. For one thing, Elon Musk has government contracts and there are laws, criminal laws in fact, that prevent one from acting within government. Whatever your name is, employee, volunteer, special employee, regular employee, if you are then affecting business that you have before the government. So that's one big restraint. Another is that Congress does appropriate this money and it's not up to Elon Musk to turn the switch. In fact, we're going to have a big fight in the Congress coming up on whether we have a continuing resolution and ultimately how the government is funded. He doesn't get to make those calls. And lastly, of course, there are all sorts of civil service protections for people who are in office, and there are privacy laws that prevent outside individuals from getting access to your information. You know how hard it is to get someone's IRS return, IRS records. There's a very tightly held procedure. You don't just let people walk in and take a look at your tax return. Well, apparently they are.

[Ali Velshi]

Apparently you do. Yeah.

[Rachel Maddow]

That's the kind of thing that courts have I think figured out is very, very troubling. Now, these are preliminary decisions, but I think what we are saying is the level of lawlessness is not simply Jen Rubin and Tom Nichols and Ali Velshi saying this. Federal courts are seeing that something is badly amiss here.

[Ali Velshi]

From your lips to the, the court's ears. Because this is a, this is a serious one. Thanks to both of you, Tom Nichols and Jennifer Rubin. We appreciate it. We'll be right back. All right, that's tonight's last word, please. Thank you for being with us. And I'll be back again tomorrow. The last thing you want to hear when you need your auto insurance most is a robot with countless irrelevant menu options. Which is why with USAA Auto insurance, you'll get great service that is easy and reliable, all at the touch of a button. Get a quote. Today, restrictions apply.