Fmr. FBI Director James Comey indicted after pressure from Trump

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell (with Ali Velshi guest-hosting), MSNBC
Episode: Fmr. FBI Director James Comey indicted after pressure from Trump
Date: September 27, 2025

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Overview

This episode dives into the unprecedented indictment of former FBI Director James Comey, examining the context of Donald Trump’s ongoing campaign of political retribution against perceived enemies. The show features detailed analysis of the legal process, political ramifications, and the broader implications for the rule of law, U.S. justice, and democracy. Discussions with key congressional Democrats—including Jamie Raskin, Eric Swalwell, and Eugene Vindman—highlight concerns about the politicization of justice, government overreach, and growing threats to democratic norms. The episode also explores the distracting effect of these prosecutions on other Trump-related scandals (notably the Epstein files), Trump’s shifting foreign policy rhetoric on Ukraine, and a notable free speech victory following attempts to cancel Jimmy Kimmel.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. James Comey’s Indictment: Context and Legal Concerns

• Political Retaliation in Action:

  • Donald Trump publicly pressured DOJ officials for Comey’s indictment, thanking specific allies and new appointees online after the indictment was announced ([03:00–03:45]).
  • New U.S. Attorney Lindsey Halligan, with no prosecutorial experience and appointed just three days prior, signed the indictment that previous U.S. Attorney Eric Siebert had refused to pursue.

• Legal Representation:

  • Patrick Fitzgerald, a renowned former federal prosecutor, is defending Comey. Their professional relationship dates back to their days as Manhattan federal prosecutors ([04:40–05:45]).

• Congressional Alarm:

  • Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-MD) has written to AG Pam Bondi questioning Halligan’s rushed appointment and highlighting Siebert’s prior refusal to prosecute for lack of evidence ([06:00–07:45]).
  • “President Trump is waging an unprecedented campaign of vengeance against his enemies. That campaign...is a scandalous and indefensible assault on equal and impartial justice in America.” — Jamie Raskin ([07:32])

• Irregularities in Indictment:

  • Raskin describes a chaotic grand jury process and courtroom confusion over multiple versions of the indictment ([08:00–10:00]).
  • “They brought two different versions of the indictment. And the judge is saying, I don't understand what I'm looking at. ...She had not seen one of the indictments.” — Jamie Raskin ([09:30])

2. Guest Analysis: Jamie Raskin on Rule of Law and Weaponized Justice

• Importance of Rule of Law:

  • Charges should be based on facts, not presidential vendettas ([07:52]).
  • “For Donald Trump, the law doesn't matter. The facts don't matter. What matters is his emotions. And he's on a vengeance campaign right now...” — Jamie Raskin ([08:30])

• Dismissing the Charges:

  • Raskin suggests Comey’s indictment is particularly weak:

    “They're charging him with making a false statement. They haven't even alleged which statement was false, what was false about it, and they haven't even alleged that he made it...” ([11:48])

• Comey Responds:

  • Comey addresses the public directly, emphasizing courage in the face of intimidation and confidence in the courts ([10:35]):

    “My family and I have known for years that there are costs to standing up to Donald Trump...We will not live on our knees, and you shouldn’t either...Fear is the tool of a tyrant...I’m not afraid, and I hope you’re not either.” — James Comey ([10:35])

• Broad Implications:

  • Raskin notes the courts below the Supreme Court have overwhelmingly ruled against Trump administration excesses ([13:21–14:31]):

    “The rule of law is holding at the lower levels.”

3. Broader Political Context: The Epstein and Homan Scandals

• Media Diversion Tactics:

  • The indictment of Comey is analyzed as a tool to draw attention away from ongoing Trump scandals, especially renewed focus on apparent coverups in the Epstein and Homan affairs ([15:56–21:30]).
  • Discussion of the release of Epstein documents, potential congressional subpoenas for big banks, and DOJ hesitance to fully release evidence.

• House Oversight and Public Disclosure:

  • “Every new document produced provides new information as we work to bring justice for the survivors and victims.” (Statement from House Oversight, [20:16]).

• Economic Policy and Popularity:

  • Trump’s announcement of new tariffs, ongoing economic dissatisfaction, and plummeting public approval ratings ([20:45–21:30]).

4. Eric Swalwell: Political Weaponization and Threats to Dissent

• Weaponization of Government:

  • Swalwell warns that Trump’s tactics—targeting enemies, distracting from scandals—pose a broader threat beyond high-profile individuals:

    “Donald Trump may not, has not, come for you yet...But if you dissent against him...he eventually will find you. That's where this is going.” — Eric Swalwell ([25:36])

• Distraction from Governance:

  • Focus on retribution undermines basic government function and public safety, as law enforcement resources are diverted ([22:49–23:55]).

• Standing Up to Bullying:

  • Swalwell encourages mass solidarity and resistance:

    “Stand up to this bully and we can muscle through this.” ([26:24])

5. Trump, Ukraine, and the Shifting International Landscape

• Shifting Stance on Ukraine:

  • Trump’s rhetoric on Ukraine flips, surprising both critics and allies.
  • In meetings with Zelensky, Trump now expresses support for Ukrainian victory and hints at lifting constraints on use of U.S. weapons, though official policy remains unchanged ([27:52–32:00]).

• Analysis from Congressman Eugene Vindman:

  • Vindman sees Trump's changed language as a result of "painfully slow learning" and hopes for further U.S. support, emphasizing the ongoing bipartisan solidarity in Congress for Ukraine ([33:12–35:58]).
  • “We need to really lift the restriction, period. ...They're fighting a multi-pronged attack by Russia...The United States and the west, frankly, need to step up.” — Eugene Vindman ([35:08])

6. Free Speech, Jimmy Kimmel, and Media Consolidation

• Attempted Censorship Reversed:

  • Trump-influenced FCC pressure led to a brief preemption of Jimmy Kimmel’s show on many affiliated stations, sparking widespread public and intra-party backlash. The show was quickly reinstated with record viewership ([36:20–38:40]).
  • Kimmel’s witty rejoinder:

    “He tried, did his best to cancel me. Instead, he forced millions of people to watch the show. That backfired bigly.” ([38:27])

• Media Concentration Threats:

  • The segment discusses the dangers of increasing media consolidation and FCC willingness to relax existing limits ([43:23–44:19]).
  • Michael Greenbaum (NYT):

    “I think what really struck me is what...this week showed was there is the option for these media conglomerates to say no, to push back.” ([42:23])

• Public Pushback Counts:

  • Viewers’ grassroots efforts influenced affiliates and networks, underlining democratic action in media access ([44:34]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “For Donald Trump, the law doesn't matter. The facts don't matter. What matters is his emotions. And he's on a vengeance campaign right now.”
  — Jamie Raskin (08:30)

• “Fear is the tool of a tyrant, and I’m not afraid, and I hope you’re not either. ...Vote like your beloved country depends upon it, which it does.”
  — James Comey ([10:35–11:25])

• “If you dissent against him...he eventually will find you. That's where this is going. ...Stand up to this bully and we can muscle through this.”
  — Eric Swalwell ([25:36, 26:24])

• “The rule of law is holding at the lower levels.”
  — Jamie Raskin ([14:28])

• “He tried, did his best to cancel me. Instead, he forced millions of people to watch the show. That backfired bigly.”
  — Jimmy Kimmel, as quoted by Ali Velshi ([38:27])

• “I think for the media industry, it was giving a real case study that you do not have to give in.”
  — Michael Greenbaum (NYT, [43:27])

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Important Timestamps

• [03:00] – Trump’s public pressure for Comey indictment; DOJ turmoil
• [05:00–06:00] – Introduction of Lindsey Halligan as new U.S. attorney
• [07:52–10:20] – Jamie Raskin on the weaponization of the DOJ, grand jury details, and Halligan’s inexperience
• [10:35–11:25] – James Comey’s public statement
• [13:21–14:31] – Raskin on the resilience of lower courts versus higher court politicization
• [15:56–21:30] – The Epstein scandal and its political/media ramifications
• [22:39–26:31] – Eric Swalwell’s warnings about government overreach and the importance of resistance
• [27:52–35:58] – Trump’s shifting stance on Ukraine and Eugene Vindman’s analysis
• [36:20–39:58] – The Jimmy Kimmel blackout controversy and public/media response
• [43:23–44:52] – Media concentration, the FCC, and the power of grassroots viewer action

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Takeaways

• The episode underscores how the justice system is being strained and potentially undermined by political pressures and vendettas at the highest levels.
• Congressional Democrats stress that the law is “holding”—but only so far as institutional checks and popular resistance are asserted.
• The antics around the Comey indictment, the Epstein files, economic woes, and attempted censorship represent overlapping crises for both American democracy and civic discourse.
• The episode closes with a call to action: stand up—both in the legal sense and the public sphere—to defend institutions of democracy and justice.

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Transcript

[Ali Velshi]

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Hey, everybody.

[Jamie Raskin]

Ted Danson here to tell you about.

[Ali Velshi]

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[Jamie Raskin]

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[Ali Velshi]

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[Jamie Raskin]

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[Jamie Raskin]

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[Laci Mosley]

Last word with Ally Velshi starts right now.

[Ali Velshi]

Hey, Ali, looking forward to seeing you irl. It doesn't happen all that often, so.

[Laci Mosley]

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[Ali Velshi]

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[Laci Mosley]

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[Ali Velshi]

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[Laci Mosley]

It's so great. It was one of my favorite days last year. It felt like a community. And people feel like a community together. And they'll ask you questions like, what's Lawrence like in real life? You know, what kind of coffee does he drink?

[Ali Velshi]

Or what's Rachel?

[Laci Mosley]

Did she wear that black jacket all the time? You know, it's very real questions.

[Ali Velshi]

It's real issues.

[Laci Mosley]

It's so enjoyable. And about real issues, too.

[Ali Velshi]

Yeah. But I think we can all use that community. You have yourself a great weekend, my friend.

[Laci Mosley]

Thanks, Ali. All right.

[Ali Velshi]

For anyone out there who's still wondering, yes, this is all about Donald Trump's retribution for himself. After Donald Trump told Pam Bondi on social media to indict former FBI Director James Comey on the charge of making a false statement to Congress about an FBI leak regarding Hillary Clinton, Trump now says there will be others. Trump posted on social media tonight, I'd like to thank Kash Patel and the outstanding members of the FBI for their brilliant work on the recent indictment of the worst FBI director in the history of our country. James Dirty Cop Comey the level of enthusiasm by the FBI was incredible, but only caused by the fact that they knew Comey for what he is and was a total slime ball. Again, thank you to the FBI and specifically for those that worked on this case with U.S. attorney Lindsey Halligan and and the Department of Justice. I'm gonna come back to that Lindsey Halligan thing in a second. We've got new details, by the way, on Comey's first court appearance. He will be arraigned Thursday, October 9, in Alexandria, Virginia, before U.S. district Judge Michael S. Nachmanoff, a Biden appointee, the New York Times reports. The federal judge who will oversee the case against James B. Comey, the former FBI director has a long history of working in the courthouse where the charges were brought, first as a law clerk, then as a public defender and now a jurist. During Judge Nakhmonoff's time as a magistrate, he caught a small taste of the legal drama stemming from Mr. Trump's first term in office in 2019. He handled the arraignment of Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, two associates of Rudolph W. Giuliani, the former mayor of New York and lawyer for Mr. Trump who were arrested and charged with funneling foreign funds into US elections and in support of Mr. Trump. The two became subjects of interest during Mr. Trump's first impeachment. James Comey will be represented by Patrick Fitzgerald. He's a former federal prosecutor with experience prosecuting cases involving organized crime, terrorism and political corruption. Patrick Fitzgerald helped prosecute John Gambino, the head of the Gambino crime family. He prosecuted terrorists in the 1993 World Trade center bombing and later worked on the SDNY national security team in investigating Osama bin Laden in the late 1990s before leading some high profile political corruption prosecutions, Bloomberg Law reports. Ex FBI Director James Comey's defense lawyer is a longtime ally and former prosecutor known for taking down prominent political players. Patrick Fitzgerald is advising Comey, who was indicted Thursday on charges related to obstruction of justice. Their ties reach back decades to when both lawyers worked as federal prosecutors in Manhattan. Fitzgerald led prosecutions against Illinois Governors Rod Blagojevich and George Ryan. He also steered an investigation that resulted in criminal charges against Scooter Libby, chief of staff to ex Vice President Dick Cheney. Two of those convicted criminals, Rod Blagojevich and Scooter Libby, were later pardoned by Donald Trump. Donald Trump said this today before departing the White House. Now that James Comey has been indicted, who is the next person on your list in this retribution. It's not a list, but I think there'll be others. But no, they'll be the others. Look, it was. That's my opinion. You can bet Comey's lawyers will be keeping track of every word Donald Trump utters and has said about this case, especially when he adds, that's my opinion after a declarative statement about the Department of Justice, which, as we all know, is supposed to be independent of the president. The New Yorker reports Thursday's indictment of the former FBI Director James Comey bore a single telling signature, that of Lindsey Halligan, installed by President Trump just three days earlier to serve as the United States Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia. Halligan is an insurance lawyer turned Trump attorney and White House aide. In March, Trump appointed her to remove improper ideology from the Smithsonian. She has scant experience in federal courts and none at all as a prosecutor. Our first guest, the Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin, who is the ranking member on the House Judiciary Committee, has written a letter demanding answers from Attorney General Pam Bondi regarding how Lindsey Halligan came to be a U.S. attorney. Veteran prosecutor Eric Siebert. This man resigned as U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, the job that Halligan now holds after refusing to bring charges against James Comey and the New York Attorney General, Letitia James. In his letter, Raskin writes, based on his investigation, Mr. Siebert concluded that there was no basis to bring charges against Ms. James. Mr. Siebert also concluded that there was no basis to bring charges against Mr. Comey. But facts do not matter to this administration. When President Trump got word that Mr. Siebert found the evidence insufficient to prosecute Ms. James or Mr. Comey, President Trump publicly declared, I want him out. President Trump is waging an unprecedented campaign of vengeance against his enemies. That campaign, including the charges against Ms. James, Mr. Comey, and others that we all see coming, is a scandalous and indefensible assault on equal and impartial justice in America. Joining me now is the Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland. He's the ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee. Congressman, where do we start tonight? Where do we start? This is retribution. This is Donald Trump having his wishes carried out by Pam Bondi, which is no surprise to any of us anymore. But this is interesting, cuz Eric Siebert says we don't have the basis to charge these people. He's gone. Lindsey Halligan's in. Nobody knew who Lindsey Halligan was, and now we have charges against James Comey.

[Jamie Raskin]

Yeah. In the American system of the Rule of law, you are charged because of something you did, not because the President or some other politician doesn't like you. And it's very clear that that's all that's going on here, because Eric Siebert was Donald Trump's own hand picked U.S. attorney, a well respected prosecutor in the Eastern District of Virginia. And Trump decided to force him out. I guess he claims to have fired him, although Mr. Siebert, I think he resigned before, but in any event, he wanted him out precisely because he found that there was no evidence upon which you could base a credible prosecution. There was simply no probable cause to believe that Comey had committed an offense that should have been the end of the matter. But for Donald Trump, the law doesn't matter. The facts don't matter. What matters is his emotions. And he's on a vengeance campaign right now against anybody he feels crossed him. But you can also see the converse of it with Daniel Sassoon, who, who got forced out of her job as a U.S. attorney in New York, along with five or six other lawyers because she refused to drop a prosecution against one of Donald Trump's newfound political friends, Mayor Adams. And he basically had to install his own person to go to the court to withdraw a prosecution. It was very difficult to make that happen, just like this one is completely ham handed and ridiculous. And any court worth its salt is gonna understand what took place here. The grand jury didn't indict on one of the three counts. It voted against the prosecution, which almost never happens. You know, they say a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich, although that was contradicted against another Trump U.S. attorney in D.C. when they didn't indict someone who threw a ham, a sandwich, or the moral equivalent thereof, a subway sandwich. But in any event, they didn't indict on one count. And then on the other two counts, the vote was 14 to 23. It was like, you know, the Bush v. Gore election in Florida. I mean, it's a razor thin margin even to bring the charges forward. And then it was completely discombobulated when they went before the judge in Virginia because they brought two different versions of the indictment. And the judge is saying, I don't understand what I'm looking at. What is this? And you know, the new U.S. attorney who'd been appointed by Donald Trump couldn't say and said she had not seen one of the indictments.

[Ali Velshi]

So understandable given her experience.

[Jamie Raskin]

You know, she'd never been a prosecutor before. That was her first time in court.

[Ali Velshi]

I'm going to come back to your, your, your concerns about that in a moment, but I want to, I want to play for our viewers what James Comey actually said as a result of this indictment.

My family and I have known for years that there are costs to standing up to Donald Trump, but we couldn't imagine ourselves living any other way. We will not live on our knees, and you shouldn't either. Somebody that I love dearly recently said that fear is the tool of a tyrant, and she's right. But I'm not afraid, and I hope you're not either. I hope instead you are engaged, you are paying attention, and you will vote like your beloved country depends upon it, which it does. My heart is broken for the Department of Justice, but I have great confidence in the federal judicial system, and I'm innocent. So let's have a trial and keep the faith.

Let's have a trial. He says fear is the tool of the tyrant, and I'm not afraid. It's an important message right now, huge message.

[Jamie Raskin]

You know, everybody should read Navalny's book called Patriot, if you've not already read it. I hope Mr. Comey reads it, because Navalny says that we can't be afraid. We can, we cannot act with fear in the face of a tyrant. You can feel fear, but you've got to conquer the fear, overcome it by acting in solidarity with other people. And we've got to do what the tyrant is most afraid of, which is telling the truth. And what's so interesting about Comey's case is they're charging him with making a false statement. They haven't even alleged which statement was false, what was false about it, and they haven't even alleged that he made it, because I think the one they're talking about was somebody else's utterance, which they're trying to attribute to him. So I think that that case is going to fall apart very quickly.

[Ali Velshi]

As he said, let's, let's have a trial, if there is a trial. And assuming one never knows with Trump appointees how long they last in their positions. But Lindsey Halligan, kind of amazing, right? That's a big job. The United States Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia. Anything that starts with United States attorney for is a big job. Lindsey Halligan, this is not, not what she's been doing. Largely.

[Jamie Raskin]

One of the reasons that they shook down the law firms at the very beginning of this Trump administration is because they wanted to try to get some real lawyers in there who could actually prepare legal pleadings and make arguments and that's why I still think it's, in a moral sense, scandalous that any law firm would invest any of the time and effort and intelligence of their young associates to go and work for this administration. So I certainly none of those law firms are participating in any way in trying to bail them out of this quagmire they've gotten themselves into in the Eastern District of Virginia.

[Ali Velshi]

That said, her training does not sort of seem to meet the moment.

[Jamie Raskin]

Well, look, people wait their entire career to become a U.S. attorney. I mean, people are prosecutors for 15, 20, 25 years before they do that. And in fact, the U.S. attorney of Virginia who left the position, Eric Siebert, I believe his father in law was a great U.S. attorney in Virginia, Richard Cullen, another Republican. I mean, these are serious lawyers who take the rule of law seriously. And what's happening here is just the sending in of a bunch of imposters who are on a delegation just to do the political bidding of the president. So the good news, Ali, is that if you look at what's happened in the more than 400 cases that have been brought against the Trump administration since January, 96% of the district courts have ruled in favor of the plaintiffs against the Trump administration and similarly overwhelming numbers at the appeals court level. Our problem is when you get up to the stacked and packed and gerrymandered Supreme Court emergency docket, that's our issue. But people should understand the rule of law is holding at the lower levels.

[Ali Velshi]

At the lower levels, yes, you're right. Issue of the emergency docket, the shadow docket is one that everybody should become very familiar with. It's particularly dangerous. Congressman, good to see you as always, Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland. Coming up, the Comey indictment is benefiting Donald Trump in more ways than one. We'll discuss that next.

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The Wall Street Journal had this stunning new reporting yesterday about Trump's inability to tame the Epstein. Cris Trump, who had socialized with Epstein in New York and Florida and has said he fell out with him before his first arrest in 2006, told aides he couldn't understand why people were so obsessed with the deceased financier and sex offender, according to people familiar with his comments. People don't understand that Palm beach in the 90s was a different time, he groused. Palm beach in the 90s was a different time. In what way, Donald? Is that an excuse for Jeffrey Epstein's crimes? Because sexual abuse of children and sex trafficking has always been a crime, even in Florida, even way back in the 1990s. The Journal also has new details about Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche's interview with Ghislaine Maxwell. Quote, Blanche reported back to the White House that he believed Maxwell had been truthful and that she didn't implicate Trump, according to people with knowledge of the discussions. The next week, Maxwell, who raised her concerns about her safety in the Florida prison, was moved to a minimum security prison camp in Texas, end quote. So the deputy attorney general who's also Donald Trump's lawyer reported back to Donald Trump that Jeffrey Epstein's co conspirator, sex trafficking co conspirator didn't implicate him. Okay. And then a week later, Ghislaine Maxwell received a prison transfer. That new reporting will definitely not help Trump tame the Epstein crisis. And neither will these new developments. Last night, the House Oversight Committee received a new tranche of documents from the Epstein estate, including calendars, call logs and cash ledgers which were released publicly today with redactions. A spokesperson for the committee said, quote, it should be clear to every American that Jeffrey Epstein was friends with some of the most powerful and wealthiest men in the world. Every new document produced provides new information as we work to bring justice for the survivors and victims. End quote. Bloomberg News has obtained more than 18,000 emails from Jeffrey Epstein's personal Yahoo account. Bloomberg News reports, quote, that that cache reveals a sweeping array of details about his public and private life, including his callous and methodical recruitment of young women, a close partnership with Ghislaine Maxwell that went beyond what either has admitted an adoration from one of the UK's most influential figures. The emails also provide new levels of detail about Epstein's other connections. Relationships that were less public but nevertheless crucial to him, especially once he became the target of state and federal investigations, end quote. The top Democrat on the Senate Finance Committee, Ron Wyden, sent a letter to Jamie Dimon, the CEO of J.P. morgan, to provide information on the bank's 15 year relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Senator Wyden asks Jamie Dimon to answer 31 questions by October 10th. And this week started with the Epstein crisis being temporarily eclipsed by the Homan crisis after MSNBC reported that the so called Trump border czar took $50,000 in cash from undercover FBI agents posing as business executives. And the Trump DOJ subsequently closed the case. Democrats on the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee are asking for the immediate release of the Homan case file, including any undercover video of Homan accepting $50,000 in cash. They want that by October 8th. Today, Donald Trump announced a slew of new tariffs that will raise prices even more on Americans. Trump's new tariffs include 25% on heavy trucks, 50% on kitchen cabinets and bathroom vanities, and 30% on upholstered furniture. This comes as new polling shows that only 37% of Americans approve of Donald Trump's handling of the economy. Only 20% of Americans approve of Donald Trump's handling of the cost of living. Remember, he ran on that price of eggs and for the first time in nearly a decade of polling, more than half of all Americans, 54%, say the country's best days are behind it. Joining me now is the Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California. He's a member of the House Judiciary Committee and the House Homeland Security Committee. I guess you can see there's two ways you could say that. All this stuff with James Comey and, you know, it distracts from the Epstein stuff, but it doesn't really matter because Donald Trump on an hourly or daily basis, can't escape that. He can't escape his lack of popularity. He can't escape the fact that he didn't bring the price of eggs down. I mean, I suppose he can flood the zone every day, but the truth still continues to come up.

It's all going to come out, Ali, as you just noted. And yes, these projections and these prosecutions are efforts to distract from the Epstein files, which he very, very much does not want anyone to see. But he is also distracted from focusing on what he promised, which was on day one, he would lower costs. He's now day, he's over 250. As far as that promise, you know, our costs are soaring and jobs are declining and our future for our children and for what's right in front of us is very dim. And so for House Democrats, what we have to do is we go into this Epstein shutdown, and I call it an Epstein shutdown, Ali, because Republicans are refusing to have us come back to Washington because that would mean swearing in the 218th person who would allow us to have a vote on the Epstein file. So we're going to go into a shutdown because of it. So Democrats have to just make it clear we are the party that wants to end the cuts, lower your costs, save your health care, period. They are the opposite.

And that's pretty straightforward. And in fact, when you look at what Americans are disenchanted with, with Donald Trump, it's got to do with those very things.

And that's what is right in front of every American. You know, I do the grocery shopping in my house. I've got three little kids, 8, 6 and 3. They eat a lot, everything. And you also see it's not just, you know, grocery bills are soaring, you're paying more and you're getting less. And so Americans are being squeezed in every way. And then when they turn on the news, they see this madness that the president's priorities are going after his political opponents. And also, I just want to put in perspective we had Another shooting this week where a sick individual went to an ICE facility and fired on and killed a detainee there and wounded another. He may have been targeting ICE officials, but what we know so far is that he very much was online. So this is the second political assassination in the last three weeks where you have to wonder if the FBI is so distracted to carry out these prosecutions on behalf of Donald Trump, are they able to protect the public from sick individuals who are willing to carry out these sick executions?

I want to talk about the Epstein stuff. You're going to end up with the 218 votes necessary. This has been known for some time, right. There needed to be these swearing, these swearings in. There might be another Republican or two prepared to, to come down on the side of getting these files out. But regardless, information continues to trickle out these, these files. The request from Ron Wyden to Jamie Dimon about JP Morgan Chase, the 18,000 emails that Bloomberg has, this information is going to come out one way or the other.

That's right, Ali. We can do it to invoke Brendan Carr the easy way or the hard way. Right. So the easy way would be the Department of Justice to just put out everything that they have and nothing is stopping them from doing that. The harder way, but a way that we can still, you know, do it, is to go to the private sector. Because the private sector, whether it's telecommunication companies, whether it's banks, financial institutions, they have a lot of information here as well, and we can subpoena them either in a Democratic majority or hopefully sooner. And also, as we have seen, the drip, drip, drip from the Epstein estate. So this is entirely about standing up for victims. And if the President of the United States is so innocent and his hands are so clean, you would think he would be doing everything to show the country that. And every day that he doesn't only raises more questions about how close he was to, to Jeffrey Epstein.

Your view on the the James Comey indictment? It does. It does seem that with each one of these things that the President does, more and more Americans start to begin to wonder what is in the interest of the country and some of the stuff that Donald Trump is doing in terms of prosecutions.

Yes. And I want to start where this is going to end. James Comey is going to be acquitted or the charges will be thrown out. But that doesn't make what Donald Trump has done any better. And for your viewers, I hope the way they see this is Donald Trump may not, has not come for you yet, and he may not get to you for a while. But if you dissent against him, if you go to the town square and protest against him, he eventually will find you. That's where this is going. And that's why we all have to be louder and find strength in numbers. And so when you look at the law firms and the colleges and the entertainment companies who've been picked off one by one to do these drug deals with Donald Trump, what they have shown is that they're cowering to a bully. The others who have shown strength in numbers by banding together, by filing lawsuits, by slowing him down, that's the only way to stand up to a bully. And so I hope your viewers don't shrink, don't hide under the bed. Stand up to this bully and we can muscle through this.

Congressman, good to see you as always. Thank you for joining us. Eric Swalwell, Congressman, thanks. Of California. Coming up, Donald Trump has changed his words on Ukraine. Putin doesn't seem to care. That's next.

[Laci Mosley]

What's poppin listeners? I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em? What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented cause representation. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving? Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports. Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast.

[Ali Velshi]

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Mr. President, do you think that NATO.

[Laci Mosley]

Countries should shoot down Russian aircraft if they enter their airspace?

[Jamie Raskin]

Yes, I do.

[Ali Velshi]

That is after Donald Trump appeared to make excuses for Russia after NATO jets shot down some Russian drones that crossed into Polish airspace. Trump said he thought that might be an accident. And today the Wall Street Journal reports this. President Trump told Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy that he was open to lifting restrictions on Kyiv's use of American made long range weapons to strike inside Russia, but he didn't commit to doing so during a meeting Tuesday, according to a senior U.S. official and a Ukrainian official. So Trump is clearly sending signals, but without any official change in US Policy. Analysts tell the New York Times this could all be a sign that Trump is washing his hands of the war. Quote, the reversal is one of analysis and not policy. Trump is oscillating between extreme views of the situation. Previously Ukraine couldn't win because Kyiv didn't have cards to play, and now it can win all of its territory back because Russia is merely a paper tiger. Either view seems to minimize America's role in the war. He suggests no change in US Policy. There's no new call for a ceasefire or a peace agreement, no new sanctions, no new deadlines and no new military support for Ukraine beyond the weapons that NATO buys from the United States, end quote. And in recent days, Russia has ramped up its aggression. Last night, US Fighter jets intercepted Russian warplanes off Alaska's coast and NATO jets intercepted five Russian aircraft over the Baltic Sea. Zelensky offered this about Trump's change in words. Quote, I think that the president, he knows some details and I think he knows more details than before. And I'm happy with this and I'm thankful for him or maybe also for his people who briefed him, end quote. He knows some details. I think he knows more details. It's faint praise, but it's still an improvement from six months ago. You're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now. I don't think you'd be a tough guy without the United States. And your people are very brave. But you're either going to make a deal or we're out. And if we're out, you'll fight it out. I don't think it's going to be pretty, but you'll fight it out, but you don't have the cards. Joining me now is the Democratic Representative Eugene Vindman of Virginia. He's a member of the Armed Services Committee. He's coming back from a bipartisan congressional delegation trip to Ukraine. You've been there many times. You're from there. Congressman, good to see you. Can you make sense of this for me? What's going on here? Why the change in Donald Trump's tone from you don't have the cards to you can win all your territory back and this analysis that it's not really a change in policy, it's just a change in the way Donald Trump talks.

Well, first of all, great to be back with you, Ali. Look, I got back just a couple days ago from the first bipartisan delegation visit to Ukraine, from the House official delegation visit. And it's my first trip in two years. And so I learned a lot from that trip. And the determination of the Ukrainian people, their resilience is still remarkable. And the urgency for the United States and for the west to stand by Ukraine against Russian aggression is never more timely right now. And I think what we're seeing is finally, and we spoke about this last time, the painfully slow learning process of this president. He's finally starting to learn. He's finally listening to the intelligence he's receiving rather than relying on his gut. And, you know, he's flip flopped a number of times. We'll see where this ultimately lands. But I like the direction that he's going in now, at least what he's verbalizing.

I'm trying to think back, I think you and I were together in Ukraine a couple of years ago, and back then it was really important to the Ukrainian people, the degree to which the American President and the American people were behind them. That sort of went away with Donald Trump's election. Where are they now? Where are the Ukrainian people vis a vis what America says and what America does in their support?

Well, first of all, they're immensely grateful for what we have done to support them. And they still see us as an indispensable partner. And the message was clear. My Republican colleague and I were very clear that the American people, and we as the representatives of the American people, as members of Congress, overwhelmingly support Ukraine. We saw that in a vote that was taken just a few weeks ago on the passage of the NDAA. Only 61 defections of the 434 members. And so the support is there. We just need the President to finally realize that it is in US Best, US national security, best interest to support Ukraine. And that means passing the Sanctioning Russia act of 2025 and ramping up pressure on, on Russia rather than what we've seen in the last nine months, just on Ukraine and releasing the $3.85 billion in aid that's already been authorized by Congress.

One of the things that you and your brother criticized in the earlier administrations, the Biden administration generally, was the fact that everything was a bit late, later than it needed to be. There was a real hesitance to allow American long range weaponry to be used for attacks inside Russia. There was some sense that that would mean that we're actually supporting war with Russia. It's a distinction that didn't matter to most people. Donald Trump seems to be leaning toward lifting that restriction. What do you make of that?

Well, it's about time. And we have lifted that restriction on occasion in the past, but we need to really lift the restriction, period. Look, this is a conflict where Ukraine is fighting Russia and in, in degrees, China, Korea and Iran. Iranian unmanned drones have been bombing Russian Ukrainian cities for, for years now. Korean troops have been fighting on Ukrainian borders and China is supplying the Russian war machine. And so they're fighting a multi pronged attack by Russia. And the United States and the west, frankly, need to step up. And part of that is the release authority on the weapons that have been donated so they can strike these safe zones that the Russians are operating right now.

Congressman, it's always good to talk to you. Thank you. I'm glad that I haven't had a chance to go back to Ukraine in the last little while. So I'm glad you were there. Piece of my heart is still in that country. Eugene Vindman of Virginia. All right, coming up, Jimmy Kimmel wins and Trump loses again. That's next. We talk a lot about how Trumpism is succeeding in eroding our democracy. But it is really important to note when Trumpism fails, and it did fail this week, spectacularly. We started this week with Jimmy Kimmel presumably fired and the First Amendment in a very dark place. And tonight, Jimmy Kimmel is back on the air. And everywhere today, local TV station owners Sinclair and nexstar caved. They announced they would end the Kimmel preemption on its ABC affiliates. The conservative Sinclair Broadcasting Group said in a statement, quote, our decision to preempt this program was independent of any government interaction or influence. Free speech provides broadcasters with the right to exercise judgment as to their content on their local stations. While we understand that not everyone will agree with our decisions about programming, it is simply inconsistent to champion free speech while demanding that broadcasters air specific content. Put a pin in that for a second because I want to come back to that in my conversation. Jimmy Kimmel, by the way, did not back down or cow to Trump in his return monologue on Tuesday. He tried, did his best to cancel me. Instead, he forced millions of people to watch the show. That backfired bigly. He might have to release the Epstein files to distract us from this. Now, this was his big closer. Let Jimmy Kimmel rot in his bad ratings. And he does no bad ratings. He has some of the worst ratings any president has ever had. So on behalf of all of us, welcome to the crappy ratings club. Mr. President, more than 6 million people watched Jimmy Kimmel's return. It was his highest rated show. His monologue now has more than 22 million views on YouTube. The monologue from Tuesday. Donald Trump's been attacked relentlessly by late night hosts this week, including Stephen Colbert, who lampooned Donald Trump repeatedly over what Trump complained was sabotage at the United Nations. Like for instance, when the elevators, the escalator stopped while he was on it and the teleprompter didn't work. And Comedy Central south park, as it has all season, ran straight at the Trump administration on Wednesday night with a special focus on the FCC chair, Brendan Carr. Will the head of the FCC be okay? Doctor, if the toxoplasmosis parasite gets to his brain, I'm afraid he may lose his freedom of speech. If you continue to interfere, I will make things very difficult for you. We can do this the easy way or we can do it the hard way. It should be noted that the Kimmel preemption led some Republicans, very few, to remember their conservative principles, notably Ted Cruz, who shook himself out of his Trump stupor and denounced using government power to silence free speech. And he defended the First Amendment, which Jimmy Kimmel did make a reference to in his monologue. Joining me now is Michael Greenbaum. He is the media correspondent at the New York Times. He's the author of a remarkable book called Empire of the Elite Inside Conde Nast the Media Dynasty that Reshaped America. Michael, head spinning. What has happened in the last two weeks. But I think Americans learn something that you know as a media criticism that they didn't know, and that is that the networks own very few of their stations. These consortiums own most of them and they all want to combine with each other. They're in the business of a merger. So when Brendan Carr, the head of the fcc, goes on and makes a mafia like threat about maybe you should not have this guy on your channels or you won't get your merger. It looked very effective for a few minutes. For a few days it worked. They got rid of Jimmy Kimmel for a few days.

[Laci Mosley]

Yeah, it was kind of a real lesson for Americans in kind of the behind the scenes pipes that bring TV to their homes. You know, these stations, viewers in Portland, Oregon and Hartford, Connecticut, they turned on their televisions. And I heard from a lot of people, didn't even realize that, you know, Sinclair or nexstar owned their affiliate and suddenly they were seeing a rerun of a game show. And, you know, not this, you know, Jimmy Kimmel's blacked out from the market. And I think that there was actually quite a bit of pushback on these affiliates from viewers who were, hey, what the heck happened? Where's the guy I watch every night at 11:30? And let's talk about how this week actually showed a real example of how a broad public pushback from both regular Americans and also some politicians, in this case, as you mentioned, Ted Cruz, one on the other side of the aisle actually led to results where Jimmy Kimmel got put back on the air.

[Ali Velshi]

Let's talk about that. Where do you think most of the pressure was applied? Was it to these local stations like you said, people who may not have known that nexstar or Sinclair or one of these groups owns their ABC station? Or was it the pressure that was put on Disney and ABC itself?

[Laci Mosley]

Yeah, I think there was something so abrupt about what happened. It felt like obviously we've seen this administration go after the media in so many ways. Legal threats, intimidating letters. But to have a real national celebrity like Jimmy Kimmel, for him to kind of the head of the FCC makes this comment and hours later one of the biggest TV stars in America is off the air. There was something so head spinning about that. I can say the reaction, you know, we broke when we put that story up on the New York Times website. We had, you know, millions of people reading that who were really taken aback and even more than, you know, any of the other wild stories that we've all been covering. So I think that the pressure was on abc, on Disney, on the local affiliates. And there was just something people talked about it being un American.

[Ali Velshi]

Right.

[Laci Mosley]

I heard that word a lot.

[Ali Velshi]

So. So whether Donald Trump, cuz he said this about Colbert, that ratings are suffering, money losing, he said this about Kimmel, he can say about all of us. Because you and I have been talking about ratings for years and ever since we've been talking, all of our ratings are a little smaller. That's the nature of this business. But that's not a role that Americans think should, that the federal government should be playing. That's not a role that they should have. If Jimmy Kimmel's ratings are bad, that's a different conversation.

[Laci Mosley]

Yeah. And I think what really struck me is what I think this week showed was there is the option for these media conglomerates to say no, to push back. Because we have sat back and watched abc, CBS paying millions of dollars in settlements to lawsuits that in some cases many legal experts have said were completely frivolous, that Trump would never have won these in a court of law. And yet they acquiesced. And in very quick succession, Trump actually sued the New York Times last week.

[Ali Velshi]

That's right.

[Laci Mosley]

And then a judge threw out the complaint. Now Trump has a chance to refile it, but said this is essentially frivolous the way as written and I'm not even going to think about this. And now we have Disney again, a company that just a few months ago did cave when Trump was threatening litigation over a George Stephanopoulos comment on the air, actually decided belatedly to stand up and say, no, we're gonna stick by our guy, we're gonna put him back on the air. I think for the media industry, it was giving a real case study that you do not have to give in.

[Ali Velshi]

Yes. But it also is a case study in media concentration. Right. In the idea that there's so much power, even though many people didn't know that nexstar or Sinclair may have owned their station. What they were surprised to learn is what these conglomerates control. Is it two of them are trying to merge, and it's going to be a $6 billion merger that's going to be hundreds of stations.

[Laci Mosley]

And also right now, the federal rules say that one company can't own more than 39% of stations. And Brendan Carr, the chair of the FCC, who's been in the middle of all this, has actually signaled some skepticism about that. He's interested in blowing up that cap, making it allowable for one of these companies to own a much even larger amount of media consolidation, which means fewer voices are going to have outsized influence on what Americans see and hear in their living rooms.

[Ali Velshi]

Right. And that may not matter to you for a comedian, although I think in democracies, satire and comedy goes back to Benjamin Franklin in America. But it will matter all over the place if you've got fewer voices. This is already the thing that's damaging media so much in America.

[Laci Mosley]

I think so, too. And by the way, I think those affiliates were surprised to get so much blowback from viewers. And I think this is an example where there was kind of a grassroots response from people calling these stations. Where is my program? Why was this taken off? This seems so arbitrary. And they reacted to that.

[Ali Velshi]

I think that is a lesson to all of us that don't just watch it happen. Get involved and do something. Michael, it's great to see you as always. Thank you so much. Michael Grinmam is a media correspondent at the New York Times. He's the author of the Empire of the Elite, Inside Conde Nast, the Media Dynasty that Reshaped America. We'll be right back. Coming up on the Vel she Band Book Club this weekend, the God of Small Things follows two twins in a small Indian town and the tragic events that punctuate their childhood and shape their adulthood. It explores the complexity of family dynamics and the power to love. The power of love to both heal and to harm. The 1997 winner of the prestigious Booker Prize, the God of Small Things helped change perception of Indian literature on the world stage and helped bring it to a global audience. The legendary author Arundhati Roy joins me tomorrow on the Velshi Man Book Club. I hope you'll join us.

[Laci Mosley]

Hey there, it's Kelly Ripa. And if you've been listening to my podcast, we are knee deep in season three. And if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on. After years of interviewing Celebs on camera. I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the cameras aren't rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls out of Page Six? Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office? Or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations about Jamie Foxx? Nowhere else. It's raw, it's honest, and best of all, it's off camera. And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off Camera with Kelly Ripa now. Wherever you get your podcasts.