House Republicans spike Rep. Khanna’s Epstein amendment

Summary

Detailed Summary of "House Republicans Spike Rep. Khanna’s Epstein Amendment"
Episode of "The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell" | Release Date: July 15, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of "The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell," host Lawrence O'Donnell delves into the tumultuous political landscape surrounding Former President Donald Trump. The discussion centers on Trump's controversial behavior, his connection to Jeffrey Epstein, the blocking of the release of the Epstein files by House Republicans, and the economic implications of Trump's tariff policies. The episode offers critical insights into how these factors are influencing Trump's political support and the broader implications for the upcoming midterm elections.

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Trump's Conduct and the White House Faith Office

Lawrence O'Donnell begins by condemning Donald Trump’s demeanor, labeling him as "the most uncouth president in history." He emphasizes the stark contrast between Trump's behavior and public dignity, asserting,

“Donald Trump is the most uncouth president in history, it is now disturbingly easy to be more publicly dignified than the President of the United States.”
[00:52]

O'Donnell examines the establishment of the White House Faith Office, managed by Pastor Paula White and her faith director, Jenny Corn. He criticizes the event where Trump used profanity during a religious luncheon, noting the inappropriateness of such language in a setting meant for religious discourse.

“It was a Trump nutty statement that wouldn't qualify for a joke in any real comedy venue.”
[03:15]

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Trump's Relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and the Epstein Files

The conversation shifts to Trump's alleged connections with Jeffrey Epstein. O'Donnell suggests that Trump's friendship with Epstein is a source of significant pressure, especially regarding the unreleased Epstein files.

“Donald Trump is feeling intense pressure about the Epstein files and who might be on the suspected client list in the Epstein files, if there is one.”
[05:10]

O'Donnell posits that Trump's refusal to release these files may be motivated by a desire to avoid potential impeachment, especially if damaging information surfaces.

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Trump's Approval Ratings and Political Support

Highlighting Trump's declining approval ratings, O'Donnell contrasts them with those of historical presidents. He points out that Trump’s current approval rating stands at 40%, which is notably lower compared to:

• John F. Kennedy’s 73% in 1961
• George H.W. Bush’s 70% in 1989
• Jimmy Carter’s 63% in 1977
• Joe Biden’s 56% at a similar point in his presidency

“The only president in the history of polling with a lower approval rating at this point in his presidency was Donald Trump, who in the summer of 2017 had a 38% approval rating.”
[06:30]

O'Donnell warns that Trump cannot afford to lose further support given the narrow margin by which he secured his presidency and the current political climate.

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Potential Impeachment Proceedings

O'Donnell explores the possibility of Trump facing a third impeachment if Democrats regain control of the House of Representatives. He outlines two scenarios:

1. Intentional Cover-Up: Trump and his allies deliberately conceal damaging information.
2. Uncovering Corruption: Legitimate concerns arise from unreleased files that warrant impeachment.

“Option two is that in fact there's reason for the American people to be concerned as it relates to what information has not been released that could be damaging to the Trump administration...engaging in a cover up.”
[14:17]

Lawrence underscores the gravity of potential impeachment, especially if influential documents related to Epstein come to light.

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Blocking the Release of Epstein Files – House Rules Committee Vote

The episode covers the recent decision by the House Rules Committee to block the vote on releasing the Epstein files. Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna (misattributed as Donald Trump Jr. in the transcript) explains the implications:

“It's not just about knowing who's being protected, the rich and the powerful in terms of who had interaction with Jeffrey Epstein.”
[26:25]

Khanna details how internal Republican opposition, led by figures like Ralph Norman, has stymied efforts to bring the full Epstein files to a public vote. He emphasizes that transparency is crucial for justice and restoring public trust.

“We should see whose side are you on.”
[27:04]

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Tariffs and Their Impact on Support

Transitioning to economic policies, the discussion shifts to Trump's implementation of tariffs and their adverse effects on both the economy and his political support. Democratic Congressman Mark Pocan (incorrectly labeled as Ghislaine Maxwell in the transcript) criticizes the lack of a coherent tariff policy:

“The problem is Donald Trump doesn't really have a tariff policy or industrial policy.”
[33:09]

Pocan highlights the unpredictability and arbitrary nature of the tariffs, which are adversely affecting small businesses and consumers. He notes that tariffs on goods such as bikes and tomatoes are increasing costs for businesses and, consequently, for everyday Americans.

“People with a bike store are having a hard time getting kids bikes that aren't going to have tariffs in time for the holidays.”
[34:09]

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Implications for the House and Midterm Elections

O'Donnell discusses the broader implications of Trump's actions on the upcoming midterm elections. He suggests that Trump's unpopularity with certain voter segments, exacerbated by his tariff policies and handling of the Epstein files, is aiding Democrats in their efforts to reclaim the House of Representatives.

“Donald Trump is now doing everything he can, as he did in his first term as president, to help you Democrats win back the House of Representatives.”
[35:54]

Mark Pocan elaborates on how Trump's policies are creating economic hardships for voters, which may drive them to support Democratic candidates in the midterms.

“Health insurance matters for people on the Affordable Care Act losing the subsidy...”
[37:21]

O'Donnell underscores the direct pain inflicted on voters through Trump's policies, emphasizing the tangible negative impacts on their daily lives.

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Conclusion

Lawrence O'Donnell wraps up the episode by reinforcing the interconnectedness of Trump's personal conduct, his administration's policies, and the resulting political fallout. He posits that Trump's inability to maintain support amidst economic turmoil and scandals like the Epstein files could significantly alter the political landscape, potentially leading to a shift in House control and further legal challenges for Trump.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• “Donald Trump is the most uncouth president in history, it is now disturbingly easy to be more publicly dignified than the President of the United States.”
  – Lawrence O'Donnell [00:52]

• “Option two is that in fact there's reason for the American people to be concerned as it relates to what information has not been released that could be damaging to the Trump administration...engaging in a cover up.”
  – Lawrence O'Donnell [14:17]

• “It's not just about knowing who's being protected, the rich and the powerful in terms of who had interaction with Jeffrey Epstein.”
  – Congressman Ro Khanna [26:25]

• “The problem is Donald Trump doesn't really have a tariff policy or industrial policy.”
  – Congressman Mark Pocan [33:09]

• “Donald Trump is now doing everything he can, as he did in his first term as president, to help you Democrats win back the House of Representatives.”
  – Lawrence O'Donnell [35:54]

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the podcast episode, providing a clear understanding of the intricate political issues surrounding Trump’s administration, his handling of the Epstein files, the economic repercussions of his tariff policies, and the potential shifts in political power dynamics leading up to the midterm elections.

Transcript

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Donald Trump is the most uncouth president in history, it is now disturbingly easy to be more publicly dignified than the President of the United States. Even I, someone lower born than Donald Trump, which is to say someone who has never inherited anything from anyone, can publicly at least conduct myself with more dignity than the President of the United States. And I will prove that tonight by once again not using a single word of profanity for the entire hour of this program, something Donald Trump was not able to do. Today. During what was labeled a religious luncheon at the White House, Donald Trump couldn't keep it clean. And Donald Trump's personal life? He seems to believe strongly in the separation of church and Trump. But in the Trump White House, there is no separation of church and state. And so this year, Donald Trump created something he calls the White House Faith Office. The White House Faith Office is run by Pastor Paula White, who is now living on a government salary, and it employs someone called a faith director named Jenny Corn, who is also living on a government salary. And those no doubt devoutly religious people laughed it up today. Laughed it up when Donald Trump became the first president in history to use profanity at the first ever gathering of the first ever White House Faith office. Faith in what? They specifically laughed at Donald Trump's jokes about divorce and women marrying men only for money because, you know, it was a religious event. That's the kind of joke that's supposed to work there. And when I say joke, it was a Trump nutty statement that wouldn't qualify for a joke in any real comedy venue. It's not clear that Donald Trump has the neurological capacity to actively decide whether or not to use Profanity in public. In my own amateur clinical observation of patient Trump, it seems to me he does reach for profanity when he's feeling most under pressure. And Donald Trump has reason to feel that pressure now. Because of his publicly conducted friendship with a pedophile who killed himself in prison. Donald Trump is feeling intense pressure about the Epstein files and who might be on the suspected client list in the Epstein files, if there is one. And the only way Donald Trump actually feels pressure is when he loses support from his otherwise devoted followers. And the Trump presidency is hemorrhaging support tonight among devoted Trump supporters for two reasons. One, Donald Trump's illegal, unconstitutional, and economically disastrous tariffs, which a huge chunk of Trump supporters don't like and actively oppose. And two, because of Donald Trump's perceived betrayal by refusing to release the Epstein files, something he promised to do as a candidate for president and something his most fervent followers fully expected him to do. They believed him on that, and now they feel betrayed. Betrayed over Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump's old friend. And Donald Trump cannot afford to lose any support at this stage of his presidency. Donald Trump got 1.5% more votes than Kamala Harris. That is a very close presidential election. And Donald Trump now has 40% support for the way he's doing his job. Donald Trump couldn't afford to lose any support after that close election, but he's lost a lot of support. John Kennedy won the presidency in 1960 by less than 1% of the vote. President Kennedy won a smaller margin of victory than Donald Trump's 1.5%. But at this point in John F. Kennedy's presidency, six months in, in 1961, President Kennedy's approval rating was 73%, 73%. President Kennedy could have afforded to give up 10% support at the price of making some unpopular choice, but Donald Trump can't afford to do that at this point in his presidency. George H.W. bush had a 70% approval rating in 1989. And at this point in his presidency, Jimmy Carter had a 63% approval rating in 1977. Joe Biden had a 56% approval rating at this point in his presidency, and Donald Trump has 40%. The only president in the history of polling with a lower approval rating at this point in his presidency was Donald Trump, who in the summer of 2017 had a 38% approval rating. And we know what happened in the next congressional election. The Democrats won back the House of Representatives. And that is what we are on track for tonight, the Democrats winning back the House of Representatives. If The Democrats just win back the House districts where they lost by 1% in the last election. The Democrats will control the House of Representatives and Donald Trump could face impeachment once again. Donald Trump could be impeached a third time with the Democrats in power in the House of Representatives. And that raises the question, is that why Donald Trump will not release the Epstein files? Do Donald Trump and his attorney and his Attorney general knows that the contents of the Epstein files could get Donald Trump impeached by a Democratic House of Representatives? We know that Donald Trump's Attorney General, Pam Bondi, has an interest, at least in the Epstein files. Pulitzer Prize winning investigative journalist for the Miami Herald, Julie Brown posted quote, it's interesting to note that Pam Bondi was Florida's Attorney General 2011-2019, a period of time when Jeffrey Epstein's plane records became public. Victims lawsuits were filed and a lot of new evidence against Epstein surfaced. So questions should be asked about why she didn't take up the case or launch a probe when she was Attorney General in Florida. So is Pam Bondi in the Epstein files? Did Jeffrey Epstein have her phone number, any phone calls there about anything? Jeffrey Epstein knew a lot of people, knew a lot of powerful people in Florida. Did he know the Florida Attorney General at the time? We also know that Donald Trump was a close friend of Jeffrey Epstein's, according to Jeffrey Epstein himself. Even though Donald Trump now tries to disown Jeffrey Epstein, and now Donald Trump appears, according to his son, to be trying to protect those pedophiles. Here is Donald Trump Jr. Speaking on the campaign trail last year on behalf of his father, who is now, according to the logic of what you're about to hear from Donald Trump Jr. Trying to protect those pedophiles.

[Donald Trump Jr.]

How is it that my father could.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Be convicted of 34 crimes, but no one on Epstein's list has even been brought to light? How is.

[Donald Trump Jr.]

I'm trying to figure out how that's possible.

[Pam Bondi]

Right.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's almost like they're trying to protect those pedophiles for some reason.

[Donald Trump Jr.]

I can't imagine why.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You know, he was in the courtroom during his father's criminal trial in Manhattan. I saw him in the courtroom when he was there. He knows exactly why that jury found his father guilty on all 34 counts in that criminal case against Donald Trump for falsifying business records to cover up his payoffs for silence of a porn star, Stormy Daniels. Donald Trump Jr. Was in that courtroom. He knows exactly how and why his father got convicted and why it wasn't Difficult for that jury to do it. We all saw Donald Trump's exasperation last week when in the Cabinet Room, his Attorney General was asked about her refusal, presumably on Donald Trump's orders to release the Epstein files.

[Pam Bondi]

Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein? This guy's been talked about for years. You're asking. We have Texas, we have this, we have all of the things. And are people still talking about this guy, this creep? That is unbelievable. Do you want to waste the time?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, they're still talking about him. Donald Trump is now agonizing publicly in lengthy social media posts about the Epstein files. At first he just tried to ignore it and dismiss it and hope his devoted followers would stop talking about it. But now he's calling his old friend pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, a guy who never dies. Here is one example of Donald Trump's social media rantings about the Epstein files, which are much too long to read these rantings of his in their entirety, and they're much too incoherent. But here is some what's going on with my boys and in some cases gals. They're all going after Attorney General Pam Bondi, who is doing a fantastic job, exclamation point. We're on one team maga and I don't like what's happening. We have a perfect administration, the talk of the world, and selfish people are trying to hurt it all over a guy who never dies. Jeffrey Epstein. For years it's Epstein over and over again. Donald Trump then said that the Epstein files were written by President Barack Obama. Jeffrey Epstein was arrested on federal charges in the middle of the third year of the Trump presidency. That means the federal investigation of Jeffrey Epstein that led to federal charges occurred during the Trump presidency, supervised by the Trump Attorney General all the way and the Trump appointed FBI director at the time all the way. Further down in that same incoherent post, Donald Trump said Kash Patel and the FBI must be focused on investigating voter fraud, political corruption, ActBlue, the rigged and stolen election of 2020 and arresting thugs and criminals instead of spending month after month looking at nothing but the same old radical left inspired documents on Jeffrey Epstein. Let Pam Bundy do her job. She's great. So Donald Trump wants Cash Patel and the FBI focusing on arresting thugs and criminals instead of the Epstein files. The FBI is an active part of the Trump federal law enforcement team that actually includes the military who are chasing down strawberry pickers in the strawberry fields of California. Kash Patel is part of the team that went chasing after kids on a baseball field in New York City earlier this month. That's what they're doing. Instead of releasing the Epstein files, that's what Donald Trump wants them to keep doing. Chasing kids in middle school, in high school, on baseball fields. Donald Trump promised his voters to go after violent criminals who are in this country illegally. And he is chasing kids in middle school and high school playing baseball. That's what Donald Trump is really doing. Donald Trump's voters do not approve. Not all of them. Donald Trump has lost some of his voters for exactly this crazy stuff of chasing hard workers in our agricultural fields, chasing kids on baseball fields, chasing people doing their jobs in factories, providing us with the things that we need. If Donald Trump leads Republicans to lose control of the House of Representatives, Donald Trump will have to worry about impeachment once again.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

There are only two things that are possible here. Option one, Donald Trump, Pam Bondi and the MAGA extremists intentionally lied to the American people for years about the Jeffrey Epstein situation. That's option one. Option two is that in fact there's reason for the American people to be concerned as it relates to what information has not been released that could be damaging to the Trump administration and the friends and family of the Trump administration and their billionaire corruption supporters. And so they're actively engaging in a cover up.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

If Donald Trump leads the Republicans to a loss of the House of Representatives in the next election, Hakeem Jeffries, who you just saw, will be the speaker of the House. It will be up to Hakeem Jeffries to make the big decision about whether to launch the third impeachment of Donald Trump. If information is revealed in the Epstein files or elsewhere that merits an impeachment, a third impeachment of Donald Trump. And here is Donald Trump today feeling that possible pressure once again. The looming likelihood that the Democrats will take control of the House of Representatives and the power to impeach him in the next election.

[Pam Bondi]

I got indicted five times, impeached two times. All bullshit, right? All terrible stuff. And I got impeached for making a perfect phone call.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That was at the so called Faith office luncheon today. It's the only room where you can get a laugh about bombing a nursing home.

[Pam Bondi]

At the end of 50 days. If we don't have a deal, then we're going to have to do. We have no choice but to do secondary tariffs. You call it secondary tariffs, which are pretty tough, which we don't want to have to do, but let's see what happens. But we thought we had a deal. Numerous times I'd get home, I'd say, first Lady, I had the most wonderful talk with Vladimir. I think we're finished. And then I'll turn on the television or she'll say to me one time, wow, that's strange because they just bombed a nursing home. They said, what?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

What's wrong with those people? They just bombed a nursing home. Gets alive. The most perverse human being ever to speak into a microphone in the White House says they just bombed a nursing home. And the people who are gathered, presumably for some sort of religiously based luncheon think that's funny. What is wrong with those people? The Wall Street Journal published an editorial yesterday titled now Trump says Forget Jeffrey Epstein. The Wall Street Journal editorial board, the conservative Wall Street Journal editorial board says Donald Trump has traded in conspiracy stories for years. Barack Obama was born in Kenya. Ted Cruz's father had a link to JFK's killer. The 2020 election was stolen. Migrants are barbecuing people's pets. He seems to think this is good show business with appeal in certain niches of a fragmented culture. Yet now he's upset that the Jeffrey Epstein theories he fanned are proving hard to tamp down. Mr. Trump lamented online Saturday that his administration is taking heat over a guy who never dies, Jeffrey Epstein. For years, it's Epstein. Over and over again, his advisers are suggesting this was a snipe hunt, but the MAGA base is in furious disbelief since the same people pledged to catch some snipe. Maybe podcast provocateurs think it's fun to spin joking, not joking, yarns about Taylor Swift rigging the super bowl to help President Biden. What about the truth? By the way, Mr. Trump now says the Epstein furor can't distract Ms. Bondi from the real conspiracy. The 2020 election was rigged and stolen, and they tried to do the same thing in 2024. That's what she is looking into as attorney general and much more. And on Friday, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio Cortez posted, quote, wow, who would have thought that electing a rapist would have complicated the release of the Epstein files? A New York civil court found Donald Trump sexually abused E. Jean Carroll in a dressing room at a New York City department store in 1996. The jury awarded E. Jean Carroll $85 million in damages after the verdict was returned. The Washington Post reported in 2023, quote, A judge has now clarified that this is basically a legal distinction without a real world difference. He says that what the jury found Trump did was in fact, rape, as commonly Understood. In July of 2020, while Donald Trump was running against Joe Biden, 11 months after Jeffrey Epstein killed himself, Donald Trump said, I just wish her well when he was talking about the woman who was Jeffrey Epstein's criminal co defendant, who was later found guilty of procuring children for Jeffrey Epstein to repeatedly rape that criminal co defendant, Ghislaine Maxwell, is now serving 20 years in federal prison. This is what Donald Trump said about her when she was awaiting trial.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Ghislaine Maxwell is in prison and a lot of people want to know if she's going to turn in powerful people. And I know you've talked in the past about Prince Andrew and you've criticized Bill Clinton's behavior. I'm wondering, do you feel that she's.

[Donald Trump Jr.]

Going to turn in powerful men?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

How do you see that working out?

[Pam Bondi]

I don't know. I haven't really been following it too much. I just wish her well.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I just wish her well. Donald Trump admits, I met her numerous times over the years. Two weeks ago, after Donald Trump. Two weeks after Donald Trump said that Jonathan Swan conducted the only effective interview of Donald Trump during his first term as president and Jonathan Swan zeroed in on Donald Trump's sympathy for a woman criminally accused of destroying the lives of children and leading them to their rapist.

[Jonathan Swan]

A reporter asked you about Ghislaine Maxwell. You said, quote, I just wish her well. Frankly, I've met her numerous times over the years, especially since I lived in Palm beach, but I wish her well, whatever it is. Mr. President, Ghislaine Maxwell has been arrested on allegations of child sex trafficking. Why would you wish such a person well?

[Pam Bondi]

I don't know that, but I do.

[Jonathan Swan]

Know that she has, she's been arrested for that.

[Pam Bondi]

Her friend or boyfriend, Epstein was either killed or committed suicide in jail. She's now in jail.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Uh huh, Yeah.

[Pam Bondi]

I wish her well. I'd wish you well. I'd wish a lot of people well. Good luck. Let them prove somebody was guilty. I mean, do you know that she.

[Jonathan Swan]

Oh, so you're saying you hope she doesn't die in jail? Is that what you mean by wish her well?

[Pam Bondi]

Her boyfriend died in jail and people are still trying to figure out how did it happen, Was it suicide? Was he killed? And I do wish her well. I'm not looking for anything bad for her. I'm not looking bad for anybody. And they took that.

[Jonathan Swan]

And I mean, she's a child sex trafficker.

[Pam Bondi]

It's a big deal. But all it is is her boyfriend died. He died in jail. Was he killed. Was it suicide? I do. I wish her well.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I'm not looking bad for anybody well. That's not English, but I wish her well is English. Donald Trump tried to suggest there that if you're in prison, he wishes you well no matter who you are. He would wish Jonathan Swan well. If he was in prison or just sitting there, he would presumably wish me well, which he's never done. Donald Trump hasn't said that about Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who's in jail tonight. He doesn't say I wish him well. Donald Trump doesn't say that about anyone who he has sent to prison in El Salvador on no criminal charges at all. Donald Trump hasn't said that about anyone who he hopes to send to his new version of Alcatraz in Florida, send more and more people there. He doesn't say I wish them well or him well or anything, anything positive about those people. Donald Trump is not in the business of wishing people well and never has been. Donald Trump has attacked more people publicly than anyone, anyone in the history of American politics without ever wishing them well. And the only criminal defendant, and now convicted criminal who Donald Trump wishes well While serving a 20 year prison term for enabling child rape, happens to be the only living person who has direct testimonial evidence about Donald Trump's friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. I met her several times, says Donald Trump. Yes, he did. And Ghislaine Maxwell could testify about every one of those times if the Trump Justice Department was actually in the business of trying to find the truth instead of being on the team that wishes her well. Coming up, Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna, who has called for the release of the Epstein files, will join us next.

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[Donald Trump]

We've never experienced a moment like this in our country, and it leaves us all with a choice. Are we going to speak out or are we going to be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents. I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies. You don't need to be hopeless. We have our voices and I will continue using mine.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Breaking news, the Republican controlled House Rules Committee has just voted to block the release of the Epstein files. Joining us now, the member of Congress who forced that vote, Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California. Congressman Connor, give us the latest situation with the House Rules Committee.

[Donald Trump Jr.]

Well, it's very disappointing. I had a very simple amendment that the full Epstein files should be released. It went for a vote to the House Rules Committee. Jim McGovern, who is the ranking member for House Democrats made sure that all four Democrats voted for the release. Ralph Norman, a Republican, actually joined with the Democrats saying that there should be a vote on the full release. Chip Roy didn't show up for the vote, but seven other Republicans blocked it. So as of now, there is going to be no vote tomorrow, up or down vote on whether the Epstein falls should be released.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And this was the first stage of your attempt to get a full vote by the House of Representatives to see a full recorded vote. Everyone could see how their member of Congress voted on this issue and that's what was blocked by the Rules Committee, not allowing you to get to that stage on the floor. Why would it be important to have that recorded vote on the floor?

[Donald Trump Jr.]

Well, in a very simple way we should see whose side are you on. That's really what this Epstein file issue has become. It's not just about knowing who's being protected, the rich and the powerful in terms of who had interaction with Jeffrey Epstein. It's the sense that people have that the government is too beholden to certain interests who have their thumb on the scale and that they're not working for ordinary people. And what the Democrats are saying is we want to make sure that we get full justice here, that we get full transparency. And this may have been the first attempt that was blocked, but I'll tell you, it's not going to be the, the last attempt. We already have Representative Vesey who has a resolution. Leader Jeffries is saying that we're going to push for transparency here and we can keep introducing these kind of amendments every week, every month to force the Republicans to demand the release. And this is something that many Republicans believe should happen, as was evidenced by Ralph Norman's vote.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The Elon Musk commentary on this situation continues. Elon Musk posted this after Donald Trump's long Jeffrey Epstein social media postings. Elon Musk said Seriously, he said Epstein half a dozen times while telling everyone to stop talking about Epstein, just release the files as promised. Congressman, are you concerned about a possible precedent here that down the line a few years from now we could be talking about the release of some other federal investigative, criminal investigative file that you might think should not be released? Or is this a unique, this is, after all, in the entire history of this country, we have exactly one president who had a convicted pedophile as a best friend.

[Donald Trump Jr.]

Lawrence Look, I think you raise a very thoughtful point which doesn't surprise me. I mean, there's a reason you have DOJ policy saying you can't leak things about people before you charge them. You would not want a Justice Department that just arbitrarily started leaking things about people caught up in an investigation. But here you have a very unique situation. You have a president of the United States who promised the American people the release of these files. You have an attorney general who went on television and said that on her desk is a Epstein client list and that she's going to promise to release that to the American public. So now you have a question of trust. And I think what the president should do is say this is a unique circumstance that potentially involves governments of other countries, that involves potentially national security. And for a one time issue, we're going to release it to have total transparency. We're going to protect the victims, but we're going to release it. And this is not precedent setting. It's simply doing what I and the attorney general promised the American people. And if they don't do that, they have a huge issue.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Carson Ro Khanna, thank you very much for joining us with your own breaking news report of what was happening in the House tonight. Thank you.

[Donald Trump Jr.]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up, Donald Trump's tariffs are terrible for the economy, that's obvious. But they are hurting Donald Trump's support with his own voters who have turned against the Donald Trump tariffs in very significant numbers. Congressman Mark Pocan joins us next.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

POLITICO has a new poll showing Donald Trump losing the support of his own voters for his illegal, unconstitutional and economically disastrous tariffs. Politico reports 46% of Trump voters say that they support tariffs on China even if it increases prices at home. Only 46%, 9% of Trump voters oppose any tariffs on China. And Donald Trump cannot afford to lose even those 9% of his supporters. Only 32% of Trump voters live in the dream world where they support the tariffs only if the tariffs don't increase prices. The political poll shows that only 45% of Trump voters think Donald Trump should be able to impose tariffs by himself. 44% of Trump voters believe tariffs should only be imposed by Congress as the Constitution requires. Donald Trump has set Aug. 1 as a new Trump deadline, which is to say a very movable deadline for some dramatic new tariffs he's been announcing over the weekend before, including 35% tariffs on Canada, 30% tariffs on the European Union and 30% tariffs on Mexico. So far, the stock market seems to be operating on their new taco rule. About the recent Trump tariff announcements with the Wall street coinage meaning Trump always chickens out. Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Mark Pocan of Wisconsin. Thank you very much for joining us. You appeared with us once before on this subject. As an experienced small business owner operator yourself, what is happening out there in the world of smaller businesses, the kind of businesses that you've operated because of these tariffs?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Well, it's a mess. Thanks for having me. Lawrence. The problem is Donald Trump doesn't really have a tariff policy or industrial policy. He has edicts like he's the king of Trumpistan, but he doesn't do what a president should do, work with Congress. And you can have tariffs and you could use them wisely. But Donald Trump doesn't do that. He just throws them out indiscriminately. There's no rhyme or reason to the numbers who gets them. And at the end of the day, a small business like I recently was in Evansville, Wisconsin, in my district, talking to small business people who are affected. They're getting invoices and it has a tariff fee added of 15% or whatever it is from whatever country. People with a bike store are having a hard time getting kids bikes that aren't going to have tariffs in time for the holidays. It's got a real impact on those local mom and pop businesses in remote places of Wisconsin. And Donald Trump doesn't care because Donald Trump, he's just creating edicts like he's some kind of king.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Are you encountering basically what the political poll is finding is very large hunks of Trump voters opposing the tariffs, realizing that they will increase prices and also objecting to their complete unpredictability being imposed by one person? Are there Trump voting business operators out there who you've been encountering in Wisconsin who now are experiencing exactly what the political poll is showing I have to.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Admit, I had a meeting in my office. I enjoyed too much Lawrence, where a bunch of Republican Trump voting business people were in complaining about the tariffs. And I said, yeah, elections have consequences, don't they? And, you know, they didn't really say much, but they're, they're definitely impacted. And those costs get passed down to consumers. So this is just another tax from Donald Trump. So he didn't address the cost of living like he promised when he got elected, and now he's taking us the complete wrong direction by now, giving us new taxes through these tariffs. And the problem is because they're so indiscriminate and there's not really a policy to them, you never know when you're going to pay more for things. I think right now I saw tomatoes are about to take an increase with the tariffs coming from Mexico. And I saw a restaurant owner saying they may not be in business in 45 days if they're still existing. So this chaotic policy is not about industrial policy. It's not about making things in America, which we all would love to do. This is just about edicts by a guy who thinks he's a king. And at the end of the day, all of us as the subjects are going to pay the price.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Carson Pocket, could you just please stay with us? We have to squeeze in a commercial break here. We're going to be right back.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Sure.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Democratic Congressman Mark Pocan of Wisconsin, back with us. I made the point earlier in the hour that if the Democrats just win the House seats that they lost by 1% in the last election, that will be enough to flip the House to Democratic control. Donald Trump seems to be doing so far everything he can, as he did in his first term as president, to help you Democrats win back the House of Representatives.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Yeah, I feel like I owe him a thank you. I'll give him a public one. Now, the problem is, you know, what he's doing in order to help us get the majority is going to cost a lot of people. Whether it be the fact that he's not addressing the cost of living, whether he's adding these tariffs, his taxes on us, the fact that 17 million people will lose health care, millions of people will lose food assistance, millions of people will lose education funding, and then the ripple effects of adding trillions of dollars to the debt while he gets a tax cut and Elon Musk gets a tax cut and the lower 30% of people actually pay more for the big ugly bill they passed. I mean, there's a lot of bad things that are happening that will help us next November. But unfortunately they're really gonna hurt the American people along the way.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, we've never seen this kind of direct pain inflicted on voters willfully by an administration like this with a midterm election approaching.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Yeah. Well, you know, Donald Trump cares about one thing. Donald Trump. And as long as he's getting a tax cut, as long as he's getting something out of this, some connection with a ruler of another country and he can put a hot up or something, that's what he cares about. The problem is for all the people in my district that have been calling our office at record numbers this year, health insurance matters for people on the Affordable Care act losing the subsidy. I was told a couple who are 60 years old making 85,000 a year could see their premiums go up as much as $16,000 next year. You may not be able to afford health insurance anymore. And then there's the ripple effects. Those rural hospitals and nursing homes are going to be affected. There's just so much that's going to and they even made sure that some of them didn't take place till after the next election. But the ACA cuts people are going to feel right away.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Congressman Mark Pocan, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Sure. Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That is tonight's last word.

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