Justice Sotomayor: Trump admin. had no ‘basis in law for Garcia’s warrantless arrest’

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell Episode: Justice Sotomayor: Trump Admin. Had No ‘Basis in Law for Garcia’s Warrantless Arrest’
Release Date: April 11, 2025
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell, MSNBC

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves deep into the landmark Supreme Court ruling concerning the illegal deportation of Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia by the Trump administration. Drawing upon his extensive experience, O'Donnell dissects the legal ramifications, the administration's stance, and the broader implications for American citizens.

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Supreme Court Ruling on Garcia’s Deportation

Overview of the Case

At 6:42 PM, a significant development unfolded as the United States Supreme Court ruled that the deportation of Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia by former President Donald Trump's administration was illegal. The Court cited a withholding order that prohibited Garcia's removal to El Salvador, deeming the act unlawful.

Chief Justice John Roberts’ Statement

Chief Justice John Roberts, in the second sentence of the ruling, stated:

"Abrego Garcia was subject to a withholding order forbidding his removal to El Salvador and that the removal to El Salvador was therefore illegal."
[02:10]

Implications of the Ruling

The Supreme Court sent the case back to the federal district court in Maryland, instructing:

"The district court should clarify its directive with due regard for the deference owed to the executive branch in the conduct of foreign affairs."
[02:10]

This directive emphasizes the need for the district court to respect the executive branch's jurisdiction over foreign relations while addressing the wrongful deportation.

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Legal Arguments and Administrative Stance

Donald Trump's Solicitor General John Sauer’s Argument

John Sauer, who previously represented Donald Trump, argued that the district court's order exceeded its authority by engaging in what he termed "district court diplomacy." He maintained that the deportation was an administrative error, asserting:

"Removal to El Salvador was an administrative error that does not license district courts to seize control over foreign relations."
[02:10]

Justice Sonia Sotomayor’s Clarification

Justice Sonia Sotomayor, joined by Justices Elena Kagan and Ketanji Brown Jackson, reinforced the court's stance:

"There is nothing unusual about a judge requiring someone to be returned to the United States."
[12:55]

Sotomayor emphasized that the government's request to leave Garcia in a Salvadoran prison lacks legal recognition and threatens due process rights.

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Discussion with Legal Analyst Andrew Weissman

Understanding the Broader Threat

At 12:55 PM, legal analyst Andrew Weissman highlighted the gravity of the Trump administration's argument:

"The argument made by Donald Trump in this case is a threat to every single person in the United States, every citizen, every non-citizen, every single one of us."
[02:10]

Weisman underscored that the administration's stance could potentially allow for the unwarranted seizure and deportation of any individual, including U.S. citizens, without judicial intervention.

Potential Government Response

At 15:31 PM, Weissman speculated on the administration's possible inaction in enforcing court orders:

"If they do nothing, they along with Trump, are responsible for the fallout."
[22:22]

He expressed skepticism about the government's willingness to comply with judicial directives, suggesting that the administration might ignore court orders.

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Senator Ruben Gallego's Insights on Insider Trading Allegations

Allegations Against the Trump Administration

Senator Ruben Gallego raised concerns about potential insider trading within the Trump administration, particularly in relation to sudden stock market movements following presidential announcements. At 25:20 PM, Gallego stated:

"These people are profiting off inside information. And, and in that process, they are screwing everyday American workers."
[25:20]

Impact on Middle America

Gallego emphasized the detrimental effects of such actions on everyday Americans:

"It's wrong. No matter who you are... you do not have a right to really mess with the system at essentially at the cost of working-class America."
[27:33 PM]

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Senator Maria Cantwell’s Perspective on Tariffs

Reasserting Congressional Control

Senator Maria Cantwell joined the discussion to address the chaos caused by Trump's tariffs. At 32:09 PM, she highlighted the detrimental impact on various sectors:

"The stock market crashed again... we are paying that prison to house these people."
[30:31 PM]

Bipartisan Support for Tariff Oversight

Cantwell, along with seven Republican senators, introduced a bill to require the President to seek congressional approval for any tariff changes, limiting the administration's unilateral decision-making power.

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Implications for the American Legal and Political Landscape

Erosion of Due Process and Legal Norms

Throughout the episode, O'Donnell and his guests articulated concerns about the erosion of due process and the undermining of established legal norms under the Trump administration. The potential for abuse of executive power poses a significant threat to the foundational principles of American democracy.

Potential for Increased Judicial Intervention

The Supreme Court's ruling and subsequent discussions suggest a possible increase in judicial oversight to counteract executive overreach, ensuring that individual rights are protected against unlawful governmental actions.

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Notable Quotes

1. Lawrence O'Donnell at [02:10]:

   "Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia... was improperly sent to El Salvador. That could happen to any one of us."

2. Justice Sonia Sotomayor at [12:55]:

   "There is nothing unusual about a judge requiring someone to be returned to the United States."

3. Andrew Weissman at [22:22]:

   "If they do nothing, they along with Trump, are responsible for the fallout."

4. Senator Ruben Gallego at [25:20]:

   "These people are profiting off inside information. And, and in that process, they are screwing everyday American workers."

5. Senator Maria Cantwell at [32:09]:

   "The stock market crashed again... we are paying that prison to house these people."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell offers a thorough examination of the Supreme Court's decision regarding the unlawful deportation of Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia, highlighting the Trump administration's contentious legal battles and the broader implications for executive power and individual rights in the United States. Through insightful discussions with legal experts and senators, O'Donnell provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the case's significance and its potential to reshape American legal and political dynamics.

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For more in-depth analysis and updates, tune in to future episodes of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell.

Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows Now, ad free + ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. And all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Felshey Band Book Club, and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. MSNBC presents a new original podcast hosted by Jen Psaki. Each week, she and her guests explore how the Democratic Party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

There's probably both messaging and policy issues.

[Andrew Weissman]

But as you look to kind of.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Where the Democratic Party is, do you think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Blueprint with Jen Psaki. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Now it is time for the Last Word with the great Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence. Good evening, Rachel. You know what I haven't had in 2025? I have not had a single warm cookie. And I blame the team here at MSNBC for misplacing my warm cookie border.

[Andrew Weissman]

Yeah, I don't think we're in that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I don't think we're in that regime anymore. If we were ever in that. Who can we trade, Rachel? Our office is right beside each other upstairs. Who can we turn to to demand the warm cookies like a Trump Cabinet member? Have you even tried the coffee in our little kitchen? I have.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I have.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

In desperate moments. Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I mean, it's a we're in austerity situation, Lawrence, but I think it's just to, like, keep us tough. You know what I mean?

[Jen Psaki]

Like, I don't think it's a money thing.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Whatever. I think it's not working for me. It doesn't work for me. That's not. It's not how you get the best out of me. I'll bring you cookies. I'll bring you cookies. Fine. Thank you, Rachel. Thank you. I await my cookies.

[Jen Psaki]

Thanks.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Well, at 6:42pm the breaking news in this country became the fact that the United States Supreme Court ruled that Donald Trump's deportation of Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia was and is illegal. In the second sentence of a Supreme Court ruling on the case, Chief Justice John Roberts wrote Abrego Garcia was subject to a withholding order forbidding his removal to El Salvador and that the removal to El Salvador was therefore illegal. The court sent the case back to the federal district court judge in Maryland where the case began, saying that that judge's order, quote, properly requires the government to facilitate Abrego Garcia's release from custody in El Salvador and to ensure that his case is handled as it would have been had he not been improperly sent to El Salvador. The intended scope of the term effectuate in the district court's order is, however, unclear and may exceed the district court's authority. The district court should clarify its directive with due regard for the deference owed to the executive branch in the conduct of foreign affairs. For its part, the government should be prepared to share what it can concerning the steps it has taken and the prospect of of further steps. Donald Trump's Solicitor General, John Sauer, who served as one of Donald Trump's criminal defense attorneys and argued Donald Trump's criminal case to the Supreme Court last year, had told the court that the original order by the district court judge was beyond that court's authority because it meant that judge was engaging in, quote, district court diplomacy. While the United States concedes that the removal to El Salvador was an administrative error that does not license district courts to seize control over foreign relations, treat the executive branch as a subordinate diplomat and demand that the United States let a member of a foreign terrorist organization into America. Tonight, Abrego Garcia's lawyers told the court the district court's order instructing the government to facilitate Abrego Garcia's return is routine. It does not implicate foreign policy or even domestic immigration policy in any case. Mr. Abrego Garcia is 29 years old, has been living in the United States since he was 16, is married and has three children. He's married to an American citizen. He was driving with his five year old son who is autistic and cannot speak, when he was apprehended by Donald Trump's gang hunters, who, according to 60 Minutes reporting, have filled a Salvadoran prison with people who have no known or provable or findable connection to any gang anywhere. 60 Minutes filed 75% of the people Donald Trump has sent to the prison claiming that they are gang members have shown no evidence whatsoever of ever having committed crimes of any kind or being associated with any gang. Mr. Abrego Garcia has no criminal record and is married to an American citizen. Justice Sonia Silomayor was joined by Justice Elena Kagan and Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson in a statement. She added to the Chief Justice's ruling, saying the government now requests an order from this court permitting it to leave Abrego Garcia, a husband and father without a criminal record in a Salvadoran prison for no reason recognized by the law. The only argument the government offers in support of its request that the United States courts cannot grant relief once a deportee crosses the border is plainly wrong. The government's argument, moreover, implies that it could deport and incarcerate any person, including U.S. citizens. Let me say that again, including U.S. citizens, without legal consequence, so long as it does so before a court can intervene. That is exactly what Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer is telling the Supreme Court. The Trump position at the Supreme Court is, no matter how wrong or illegal an arrest may be, if we get that person outside the borders of the United States of America, no judge anywhere can order the return of that person, even if that person is a United States citizen. The argument that Donald Trump's team is making to the Supreme Court is that the mistake doesn't matter. The fact that it was a mistake, it could be any mistake. It could be the mistake of doing that to a United States citizen. The Trump argument is we can seize anyone at any time, including American citizens, put that person on a plane, sending them to another country, and once that plane leaves American airspace, there's not a single thing anyone in the world can do about it. And so, yes, according to the Trump argument to the Supreme Court, what happened to Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia, who has now been detained for 26 days in El Salvador, could happen to any one of us. The lawyer who made that argument to the Supreme Court is the very same lawyer who said last year that Donald Trump, as president of the United States, had every right to order SEAL Team six to assassinate any political rival of his or anyone anywhere in the world. He actually made that argument in court in the appeals process leading up to the Supreme Court for Donald Trump to get immunity for Donald Trump, and that argument worked in the Supreme Court. That would include Donald Trump allowing that they're deciding to have anyone in the news media who says something Donald Trump doesn't like sent off in one of those planes to El Salvador, never to return. And I have to confess, I did not fully understand until tonight what Donald Trump and his former criminal defense lawyer were arguing to the courts about this case. I have been drowning in tariff news and other news, other Trump news, and it is only now very clear to me, since I had not read the specific pleadings in this case until tonight, it is only now clear to me that this case does not just increase the risk of being seized and deported just for people who are in this country without documentation or for people who are in this country on student visas or visas of any kind, including a green card. I knew that. I did not know that. The argument made by Donald Trump in this case is a threat to every single person in the United States, every citizen, every non citizen, every single one of us. And it was not until I read Justice Sotomayor's clarification of that very point tonight that I finally understood where we all stand tonight. In Donald Trump's eyes, he believes, and his former criminal defense lawyers in the Justice Department are telling him, or certainly telling the court, and they must be telling him what they're telling the court, that he has a right to deport anyone from this country, including citizens. And deport is not the correct word to use because that is a legal term that can apply legally in some procedures with non citizens. Deportation has not nothing to do with American citizens. That's not the word for what we're talking about here. And so to clarify the language of this, this is how broad this is. What Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer is saying to the Supreme Court, in effect, is that Donald Trump can now have any person seized at any time, anywhere in their homes, anywhere, throw them onto an airplane, send them to El Salvador, put them in the prison that Donald Trump is renting down there, and leave them there forever. That is the actual Trump argument to the Supreme Court. And so the stakes in the Abrego Garcia case could not possibly be higher for him, for his family, and for every one of us. Every one of us. In a separate ruling in a separate case, the Supreme Court has said that legal deportations cannot be carried out without proper due process in each case, with each person threatened with deportation being allowed to present their case and be heard before they are deported. Justice Sotomayor said that there is nothing unusual about a judge requiring someone to be returned to the United States. She wrote, quote, it has been the government's own well established policy to facilitate an alien's return to the United States if the alien's presence is necessary for continued administrative removal proceedings. So, no, it is not an intrusion into foreign policy to return Mr. Abrego Garcia to the United States. It is, according to Justice Sonia Sotomayor, routine. Leading off our discussion tonight is Andrew Weisman, former FBI General counsel, former chief of the Criminal Division in the Eastern District of New York. He's also an MSNBC legal analyst. Andrew, thank you very much for joining us tonight on this important breaking news case. And I have to say, as you've just heard, I really didn't realize Until I saw Justice Sotomayor laying it out in her supplementary finding to the Chief Justice's ruling today that what they're arguing is that they can do this to any one of us.

[Jen Psaki]

So, you know, a lot of times people accuse the media of hyperbole. There is no hyperbole here. It is everything that you said. And it's actually more because in the case of Mr. Garcia, he actually had a court ruling that he could stay here, that had been adjudicated. And so this was in violation of that court order. So, yes, it's absolutely true that the position is that if you put the two cases together, the government was arguing they could snatch anyone, anyone in this country, remove them without due process. And even if it's a mistake, this is the callousness. Even where it's a conceded mistake, that person can rot in jail as a result of the United States making mistake, and they would have no obligation to lift a finger. So this is both, as we now know from the Supreme Court, in two unanimous losses for the Trump administration, that that is not the law of this country, that these people are and anyone is entitled to due process, to a hearing. And in this case, if you make the mistake, you have to facilitate, of course, what any decent human being would automatically think to themselves, which is, how do you rectify it? I can't get over that this is beyond just the law point, which is what kind of human being sits in their office, realizes the mistake happened. And remember, Mr. Garcia is still in jail in El Salvador because of our mistake. And the Department of Justice's position is we're not lifting a finger unless the court actually requires us to. That is what is so remarkable when you think about what it means to be an American in this country.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Well, yes. And what we don't know is if in the end of this process, the court, backed by the Supreme Court, orders the return of this one person, we don't know that the Trump government will follow that order. And there will be absolutely nothing, nothing that any judge in this country can do to force Donald Trump to get that person out of that prison.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, this is what I would say with respect to that eventuality. This administration wants to say that they are all powerful and they have so much clout around the world, they can't get this person back from El Salvador. We're paying that prison to house these people. They're going to actually take the position in front of a court that they, the almighty Trump administration, doesn't have the power to effectuate his return. I Mean, that seems pretty laughable. You know, I. Let's wait and see. But that's going to have to be their position if they don't want to return him.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So what do you make of the chief justice's remand his, his specific instructions, in effect, to the district court judge?

[Jen Psaki]

So, you know, one of the things that district court judge can do here in light of that is, remember, the district court judge didn't have a factual hearing, and the district judge can say, I want to have a factual hearing. If you are saying I can only take these steps and not more, let's have a factual hearing. Let's hear from the people, let's hear from Marco Rubio, let's about why it is that Kristi Noem could go there. What kind of contract do you have with them? I mean, all of the things that are very public, that don't get into foreign relations and have a hearing about it. I mean, this is one where it's so unbelievable that you wouldn't think that a humane person and an adult in the room wouldn't say, somebody is in jail because of my mistake. How do you fix it? But also, I think at this point, they'd really have to lie through their teeth in order to try and convince the judge that they don't have the power to effectuate his return. And so, you know, I'm, what I would say is cautiously optimistic that it would be quite a hard road. It's not. I won't put it past them, but I think it would be very, very hard not to say, you know, unconscionable to take the position that you couldn't effectuate his return.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We're seeing one of the differences here between the first Trump presidency and the second Trump presidency. In the first Trump presidency, there were people down the chain of command from the president, including frequently in the White House chief of staff's desk, who would not do what he wanted them to do. They absolutely would not do it. And here you have, apparently, straight down the line, people who will do exactly what he wants to do. And one of the Trump principles is you never admit you were wrong. You never admit it was a mistake. In fact, they have fired the Justice Department lawyer who admitted in an earlier proceeding that this was a mistake. You get fired for that. And so actually acting on the mistake and doing what normal people, decent human beings, do about a mistake is something Donald Trump's incapable of. And now he has in place an attorney general and everyone down the line who I absolutely adhere to that position that they will never, ever, ever admit a mistake and act to correct it.

[Jen Psaki]

You know, there's a sign of, I couldn't agree with you more. And there's a sign of that from the statement that was issued tonight in light of the Supreme Court ruling, which basically says, look, the court vindicated the fact that we have, you know, absolute, you know, sort of hegemony when it comes to foreign affairs. And that just struck me as nobody wanted to actually just tell Donald trump, you lost again, 9. 0. I mean, like, this is, this is what you're supposed to do in an adult administration is you've got to be candid with everyone who's there, including your ultimate boss. And that statement was just so unrealistic in light of what it is that the court ruled. And, you know, this is one where we have now seen in one week the Supreme Court of the United States, this Supreme Court, the one that granted him presidential immunity, Rule 90 in two cases on this key issue about the power to deport people, saying that is not how the Constitution works. So they join many, many judges that have found this administration violating due process, the Fifth Amendment, the Fourth Amendment, the First Amendment, and then a whole litany of congressional statutes. I mean, it is a remarkable panoply of lawlessness that has been found by the courts here. And if they continue with this sort of like we're just going to ignore it and not speak truth to power, I think you're going to see more of these kinds of decisions from the Supreme Court that are unanimous. Remember, that's this Supreme Court ruling in this way, in this case, and it tells you it's a sign of where we are in terms of this administration.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Andrew Weissman, thank you very much for starting off our discussion on this important subject. Thank you very much.

[Jen Psaki]

You're welcome.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up, our next guest, Senator Ruben Gallego, wants answers about, quote, whether President Trump, his family or other members of his administration engaged in insider trading. That's next with Ruben Gallego.

[Rachel Maddow]

It's President Trump's first 100 days, and MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it all from the front lines. What issue matters to you the most? Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the president's policies and promises.

[Andrew Weissman]

Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody, he can count on this group of people again?

[Rachel Maddow]

Search for Trumpland with Alex Wagner wherever you're listening and follow subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free the first 100 days, bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Andrew Weissman]

Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.

[Rachel Maddow]

Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

[Rachel Maddow]

Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc [e-mail].

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We need an independent investigation into market manipulation because.

[Andrew Weissman]

Americans need to know whether President Trump.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Or anyone in his administration manipulated the.

[Andrew Weissman]

Market to benefit their donors, all while.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

They are working for the American people.

[Andrew Weissman]

And while small businesses and those working.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Families are paying a price. It's a disaster. But here's the thing. Republicans in Congress have a chance to stop him right now. If they do nothing, they along with Trump, are responsible for the fallout.

[Andrew Weissman]

I don't think that Trump just coincidentally.

[Jen Psaki]

Said buy stocks and then shortly later.

[Andrew Weissman]

Made an announcement that dramatically inflated and.

[Jen Psaki]

Dramatically raised a lot of these asset prices.

[Andrew Weissman]

And you know, I've heard murmurings on the floor that there may have been people that knew that this was coming. And I'm very interested in seeing some of the stock disclosures that come out in when the quarter, when those reports are due. And I'm very interested in what members of Congress have been buying and trading.

[Jen Psaki]

Stocks in the last 24 hours prior to this tariff announcement.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And today, Senator Adam Schiff and our next guest, Senator Reuben Gallego, called on the Trump White House to investigate whether Donald Trump violated insider trading laws. Their letter to the White House asks the question about asks questions about the President, his family and his advisors says they are uniquely positioned to be privy to and take advantage of non public information to inform their investment decisions. For instance, stock in Elon Musk's company Tesla increased 18% immediately following the President's announcement to pause Most tariffs, which Mr. Musk had publicly opposed. The apparent conflict of interest issues President Trump's announcement presents regarding Mr. Musk apply to all White House and executive Branch employees, including special government employees who may have had access to non public information regarding the deliberations and ultimate changes in tariff policy. Joining us now is Democratic Senator Ruben Gallego of Arizona, is a member of the Senate Banking Committee. Senator, thank you very much for joining us tonight. You know, I have to say we've seen, we've never seen anything like this before. But when you think back to various crises in the past that have affected the stock market that involved Washington intervention, President Obama's help bailing out automobile companies, for example, President Bush trying to deal with some really dramatic economic developments, there was never a rush to question and suspect insider trading in the White House. This is the first White House that has invited that kind of suspicion.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Well, look, they invited that kind of suspicion because at the core they do corrupt things. Let's just be clear. You know, this is the President that has meme coins set up that we don't know who is actually buying them and yet he's actually being able to cash in on them. This is a national security organization that has set up a plan of attack over signal an unsecured app and then lied about it. So why would we be surprised as a nation that only a few minutes before he announced the pause on his tariff that there was a sudden rush of investments of people going by these very, very, very now cheap assets in order to profit hugely. And again, the reason this matters is because they are profiting off inside information. And, and in that process, they are screwing everyday American workers. These small businesses that have small holdings, these IRAs, all these companies that don't have, they're not privy to this inside information. They're the ones that are actually not getting the benefit versus these people that dumped early and now were buying as fast as they could, knowing that they're going to be able to live to rise on the dip. And it's the most cynical thing they could do. You know, this whole action they're doing is going to end up hurting middle America, Main Street America. It's going to grind our economy to a halt. There's going to be higher layoffs. But of course the rich got richer as usual when it comes to these kinds of calamities because they took advantage of the situation and it looks like it came from the inside.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

There are some people, public officials who have to make some financial disclosures several months from now in the executive branch, congressional branch. We may see some signals in those financial disclosures down the road. But Donald Trump and everybody working in the White House have plenty of friends out There in the world, Donald Trump has some favorite people working on other television networks who he talks to privately all the time who could have made very big moves based on what it is possible other people might have known Donald Trump was going to do at about 1:00 yesterday.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Look, it doesn't matter whether you're in or out of government. If you're operating on insider information, that's still illegal because you're messing the market up and you're messing the market up for the powerful with more information versus your mom and pop that is holding a 401 IRA or just doing everyday trading. Again, you are undermining the whole system, which will end up hurting Main Street America when people stop investing, people stop trying to expand. And yes, we're all going to follow public disclosures for us. I think on the Senate side, it's going to be mid May, so it will be interesting to see what everyone files. I actually don't have individual stock. It's a policy that I keep just to avoid any perception of trying to do any type of insider trading. But this is wrong. No matter who you are, whether you're a senator, whether you're a congressman, whether you are in the White House, you do not have a right to really mess with the system at essentially at the cost of working class America who are just trying to save a little for retirement, maybe save a little more to buy a house. And they basically use this opportunity, something that was created by Donald Trump in order for them to and their allies in order for them to actually go and, and buy stock at the lowest point possible and probably will dump it later on now that we're seeing what's happening in the Asian markets.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator Ruben Gallego, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thank you. Thank you. Coming up, the chaos caused by Donald Trump's tariffs is not over, as Jason Furman predicted correctly last night on this program. Today, the stock market crashed again. Senator Maria Cantwell is trying to reassert Congress's congressional control over tariffs which was granted to Congress in the Constitution of the United States. And she has some Republican support to do exactly that. Senator Maria Cantwell joins us next. Today the stock market woke up to what Harvard economics Professor Jason Furman was trying to tell them here last night.

[Jen Psaki]

One quite important tariff went up. So we're going to be seeing higher inflation over the next couple months. All the problems for the Fed, higher unemployment rate as well. Those tariffs include 10% on basically every country in the world, 25% on the parts of Trade from Canada and Mexico that aren't covered by a trade agreement, 25% tariffs on autos, steel and aluminum, and perhaps most significantly for the economy, 125% tariff rate on China. And whatever you think about the U.S. economic relationship with China, that large and.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Abrupt a change is going to be.

[Jen Psaki]

Very painful for us if the President sticks with it.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And today, as foreshadowed last night by Professor Fuhrman, the stock market crashed again. The Trump stock market dropped over a thousand points today. And once again, JPMorgan Chase reaffirmed its prediction of a recession because of the Trump tariffs. They made that same prediction yesterday morning before Donald Trump backed down on some of his tariffs. But after assessing the high tariffs on Canada and Mexico that remain in place and the additional tariffs Donald Trump arbitrarily placed on China, they remain confident that Donald Trump is steering the country straight off a cliff into a recession. Seven Republican senators have taken a defiant stance against Donald Trump's tariffs by joining Democrats Senator Maria Cantwell's bill as co sponsors. The bill requires the President to submit in writing to Congress any reason at all legal justifications for any changes in tariffs. The bill also limits the president's authority to impose tariffs for a maximum of 60 days. If Congress does not pass those tariffs into law within those 60 days, then those tariffs must expire. Joining us now is Democratic Senator Maria Cantwell of Washington. She's a member of the Senate Finance Committee, which has jurisdiction over taxes and tariffs. Senator, thank you very much for joining us tonight. It seems like a long time ago when Congress was in charge of tariffs, but it really was just right up until 2017 when Donald Trump took the oath of office.

[Andrew Weissman]

Well, you're bringing up a good point. We already had a dry run on this in the first Trump administration. And if you think about it, what did the United States get out of that? We actually ended up giving farmers out of taxpayer money $28 billion to compensate for the impact those farmers had. We definitely don't have the resources now to have this kind of trade war and have an impact on our farm economy.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And the money going to those farmers was to compensate them for sales that they lost. Because the United States of America, for really all the 20th century has been producing much more food than we can consume. We've been shipping it around the world. We need customers around the world. It's our most been our steadiest and oldest export. And so we lost those customers when Donald Trump went and started his first trade wars.

[Andrew Weissman]

Well, it's a Good point, Lawrence, because 95% of consumers live outside the United States. So I know that farmers didn't like it when the President said good luck. As you know, when the tariffs just recently were going into effect, as if it wasn't having that significant of an impact on the them. They already know the impact that it had last time. They're very concerned about the impact this time. But they're also worried about something else that shifted and changed and that is the amount of deal making that's been being done by other countries. So not only do they worry about this cost impact, but they worry once it's over or if it does end, then how are they going to get back on that shelf space? Somebody else gets a commitment to sell their products. No longer are they interested in the US Product. So lots of competition. We want to open markets and we want to make sure that our farmers, that we're, we're growing great products to go all over the world.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And we already have. The Professor Furman last night who was President Obama's Council of Economic Advisers chair, was telling us about what's happening with the prices of cars, used cars, prices going up. Every imported car, the price is going up dramatically. Every American car, the price will go up very significantly because so much of other components of American made cars, including Teslas, come from foreign countries. In Tesla's case, tremendous amount of components come from China. So those prices are going up, which is why, another reason why the Tesla stock price went down today, even though all Teslas sold in America are assembled in America.

[Andrew Weissman]

So the issue is that, well, a couple of other interesting things have happened in the world. First of all, the American people, the word supply chain entered their lexicon when we had the COVID pandemic. Now all of a sudden everybody understood, wait, all these products come from different places. I can't get what I need. Oh, even in that case, semiconductors impacted the price of a used car. It went up something like $2,000. So we know that our supply chains are integrated. And now this is a non Covid forced disruption of that supply chain and it's going to make the price of cars go up again. And I don't think, you know, when inflation has been the primary economic issue that our nation has been dealing with. Why would you make things more expensive? And we're seeing that, that from some of these organizations who have endorsed Congress reining back and bringing back this power and having us weigh in on such an important economic issue.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Congress did a very good job when it was in charge of tariffs before Donald Trump basically seized that power. Senator Maria Cantwell, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Andrew Weissman]

Well, thank you, Lawrence. You probably have a few stories yourself of your time on the Finance Committee about all of this. But you're right, there was a lot of consultation, and that's the way trade was done. And we have to get back to that. It'll be the base. The best safeguard for predictability going forward is to have Congress, if Americans are worried about this, put Congress back into the arena on this.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It used to be one of the principal bipartisan areas of legislating because it was absolutely necessary. You had to get agreements basically with all the states in order to put together the correct tariff package. That was fair to everyone. But those days can come back if your bill passes. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Andrew Weissman]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up today, Donald Trump did something we've never seen a president of the United States do before. It's the kind of thing that the one other criminal president of the United States, Richard Nixon, did do in secret because he was sure he would be impeached if he got caught doing it. But today, Donald Trump did it on tv. That's next with Andrew Weissman.

[Rachel Maddow]

MSNBC presents Main justice each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration Department of Justice.

[Jen Psaki]

The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy. I think what we are seeing is Project 2025 in action. This is it coming to fruition.

[Rachel Maddow]

Main Justice. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content. MSNBC presents a new original podcast hosted by Jen Psaki. Each week, she and her guests explore how the Democratic Party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

There's probably both messaging and policy issues.

[Andrew Weissman]

But as you look to kind of.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Where the Democratic Party is, do you think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Blueprint with Jen Psaki. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Here's something we have never seen a president of the United States do order an investigation of an American citizen. Similarly, Sir Christopher Krebs, the former head of cisa.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

This is a man who weaponized his.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Position against free speech in the election.

[Andrew Weissman]

Context, in the context of COVID 19.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

This is another. It's a similar presidential memorandum to the one you just signed. It addresses his access to government, existing clearances he might have, and further Instructs.

[Andrew Weissman]

Your Department of justice, other aspects of your government, to investigate some of the.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Malign acts that he participated in while he was still head of csa. We're going to find out about this guy, too, because this guy's a wise guy. He said, we've been proved this is the most secure election in the history of our country. That's the sort of thing that the criminal Republican President, Richard Nixon, who was forced to resign the presidency, used to do in private. He used to order IRS to audit people's tax returns. He used to order illegal wiretaps on reporters and other people. But Richard Nixon knew that he would be impeached if that became public. And there's Donald Trump doing it on tv, the kind of thing that the first criminal president of the United States had to hide. And of course, this is Donald Trump. So he didn't just pull in the TV cameras to order an investigation of just one person. Who the hell is Miles Taylor?

[Jen Psaki]

And he made a living on going.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

On CNN talking about the president. And I think what he did, he wrote a book, Anonymous, said all sorts of. Of lies, bad things. And I think it's. I think it's like a traitor. Like, it's like spying. We're going to find out whether or not somebody's allowed to do that. I think it's a very important case. And I think he's guilty of treason, if you want to know the truth. But we'll find out. And I assume we're recommending this to the Department of Justice. Okay, I'll say it one more time for the slow students like Donald Trump. No, he's not guilty of treason. The crime of treason is described in the Constitution and has been applied only during a declaration of war passed by Congress, which is why the last treason conviction in the United States was for treason committed during the last declaration of war, meaning during World War II. Andrew Weissman is back with us. And, Andrew, this was the kind of thing that Richard Nixon was impeached for when they found out later that he was doing this sort of thing.

[Jen Psaki]

And that is why the norm, as you know, since Watergate, is that Republican and Democratic administrations have a separation between the White House and the Department of Justice. So that we are not sort of authoritarian government where the king says, you know, my friends, you don't prosecute my enemies, they get prosecuted. That is why Attorney General Sessions was fired, was because he understood that there had to be that separation. But now you're right, we're seeing it in daylight. And here, let's Just focus on the two people who were singled out here. So let's just think why these two people, they're not terribly household names, but they were insiders. And the message is to people in the Trump administration, this will happen to you if you do not toe the line. That is why it is there being singled out. And then let's just take as one example the outrageousness of this Chris Krebs. What is it that he is alleged to have done? He is alleged to have said as part of his job that there was no material fraud in the election. That is true. The statement by Donald Trump that there was fraud in the election is false. Facts matter. This is what is just so outrageous about this, is that you have the president doing this on something that is completely false. As a matter of fact, he has had many, many, many opportunities to present those facts to say why there was fraud in the election. He has not done that. I am old enough to remember when he said, I'm going to have a press conference that I'm going to present just positive proof that there was fraud in the election that never happened. And now Chris Krebs is being singled out in the way that we used to have when we were fighting a king in the 18th century and we didn't want to have this kind of regime. And we're seeing it, as you said so aptly in front of our eyes.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And he's issuing that executive order to the Attorney General of the United States. Let's listen to the Attorney General's contribution, her big contribution in the Cabinet room today. Let's listen to what she had to say.

[Jen Psaki]

You know, you were overwhelmingly elected by the biggest majority.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That's what the Attorney General had to tell the President, the lie that he was overwhelmingly elected by the biggest majority. And that's the person who, she, who he wants now investigating these people.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, well, look, that goes to the comment about our last segment, which nobody apparently is going to tell the President that he lost in the Supreme Court. You know, that, that, that is the kind of administration that it is. You know, this is 1984 doublespeak where we learned from George Orwell, it's like, freedom is slavery, war is peace. That is what we're getting from this administration. It's administration that would say January 6th was a wonderful day and those people are heroes. And the people who are investigating that are the criminals. I mean, this is really a topsy turvy world. And now Chris Krebs and Miles Taylor are the victims of that for doing nothing else but their job.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And Andrew, control room's telling me we have some breaking news about the Abrego Garcia case, that his attorney has asked the court to expedite the case for fear of his safety in that prison and fe of his life.

[Jen Psaki]

Absolutely. I just want to make sure everyone understands he is still incarcerated because of a mistake that we made. I still can't get over that. And this is in a completely bar parts and way. I can't imagine being in any part of the Department of Justice other than the Trump administration where whether it's Republicans or Democrats who wouldn't say, how fast can we get him back here and release him? I mean, this man is suffering because of our mistake.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Andrew Weissman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Jen Psaki]

You're welcome.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We'll be right back. Andrew Weissman gets tonight's first and last word.

[Rachel Maddow]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Let's get up to speed. We've got some breaking news right now.

[Rachel Maddow]

Now watch your favorite shows live.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

There's a lot happening here in Washington as Donald Trump's second term starts to take shape.

[Rachel Maddow]

Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] apparently.