Lawrence: An ‘afraid’ Trump sits idly by as Musk illegally seizes our data

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell Episode: Lawrence: An ‘afraid’ Trump sits idly by as Musk illegally seizes our data
Release Date: February 6, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves into the alarming intersection of politics and technology, spotlighting the contentious relationship between former President Donald Trump and tech mogul Elon Musk. The discussion centers on Musk's alleged illegal seizure of sensitive government data and Trump's passive response to these actions, raising significant concerns about data security, privacy, and democratic norms.

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Main Monologue by Lawrence O’Donnell

Lawrence O'Donnell opens the episode by addressing the recent turmoil involving Elon Musk's unauthorized access to critical government databases. He asserts that Trump, fearing Musk's influence and capabilities, has chosen to remain idle as Musk manipulates and controls sensitive information.

Key Points:

• Trump's Reluctant Response: O'Donnell criticizes Trump for deferring to Musk, suggesting that the former president is too intimidated to confront the tech billionaire directly.
• Musk's Unauthorized Access: The episode highlights Musk's alleged control over the U.S. Treasury's payment systems, Medicare, and Medicaid data, which O'Donnell claims is illegal and unprecedented.
• Implications for Data Privacy: The host emphasizes the potential for massive data breaches, including personal taxpayer and medical information, due to Musk's unrestricted access.

Notable Quotes:

• "Donald Trump couldn't call Elon Musk a liar himself because he's afraid of Elon Musk." [00:51]
• "Elon Musk now has access to all of your Medicare information... That's a data breach of epic proportions." [00:51–04:12]

O'Donnell draws parallels between Musk's actions and the January 6 Capitol riot, suggesting that both events signify a blatant disregard for constitutional and legal boundaries.

Additional Insights:

• Treasury Department's Weak Response: O'Donnell criticizes Treasury Secretary Scott Besant for his perceived impotence in countering Musk's actions, indicating systemic failures within the administration.
• Lawlessness in Washington: He portrays the current administration as increasingly lawless, with officials like Russell Vogt advocating for unconstitutional budgetary practices.

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Interviews and Discussions

a. Interview with Norm Eisen

Guest: Norm Eisen, former White House Chief Ethics Counsel for President Obama

Norm Eisen discusses his legal battle against the Treasury Department's decision to grant Musk access to sensitive financial data. He anticipates a court order to restrict Musk's access, highlighting the ongoing legal struggles to protect American financial information.

Notable Quotes:

• "Mr. Musk has no place in these sensitive, confidential, very personal records at the Treasury Department." [22:16]
• "We filed this case... to prevent Musk from having access to payment systems that should remain secure." [22:16–24:15]

b. Interview with Pam Bondi

Guest: Pam Bondi, Trump's Attorney General

Pam Bondi defends Russell Vogt's nomination, portraying him as a law-abiding official committed to following presidential orders. O'Donnell counters her statements by highlighting Vogt’s intentions to violate budgetary laws, emphasizing the threat he poses to democratic processes.

Notable Quotes:

• "Russell Vogt promises to carry out by refusing to spend the government funds that Congress orders." [26:14]
• "He's going to make it easy because he's very rash, he's very eccentric, he's very lawless." [28:10]

Bondi discusses the challenges of overseeing the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) and predicts that Vogt will undermine it by enacting policies aligned with Trump’s agenda.

c. Interview with Senator Raphael Warnock

Guest: Senator Raphael Warnock, Democratic Senator from Georgia

Senator Warnock addresses the Democratic Senate's efforts to block Russell Vogt’s nomination, framing it as a crucial stand against authoritarianism and the erosion of democratic institutions. He underscores the real-world impacts of federal funding freezes on essential services and public welfare.

Notable Quotes:

• "We are in the midst of a real crisis in our country as we have seen these undemocratic antics play out." [32:57]
• "They are trying to weaponize despair. And the best way to respond to that is to stand up." [35:49]
• "This is a defining moment in our country. And the eye of history, the judgment of history, is on all of us." [38:38]

Warnock elaborates on the detrimental effects of Musk's actions, including the suspension of USAID operations, which jeopardizes international aid and disaster response efforts. He calls for bipartisan cooperation to uphold democratic principles and prevent further governmental overreach.

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Additional Monologue and Final Thoughts

Lawrence O'Donnell continues to elaborate on the broader implications of Musk's unauthorized data access, linking it to the Trump administration's pattern of circumventing legal norms and undermining institutional integrity. He warns of the long-term consequences for American democracy and the rule of law, stressing the urgent need for accountability and systemic reforms.

Notable Quotes:

• "Donald Trump is violating the law at a faster pace than he has ever violated the law in his life." [04:12]
• "We have no reason to believe Elon Musk because he's an inveterate pathological liar." [04:12]

O'Donnell concludes by highlighting the historical significance of these events, portraying them as pivotal moments that will define the legacy of current political leaders and shape the future of American governance.

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Conclusion

In this revealing episode, Lawrence O'Donnell presents a scathing critique of the Trump administration's handling of Elon Musk's unauthorized access to sensitive government data. Through incisive commentary and insightful interviews with key political figures, the podcast underscores the alarming erosion of democratic norms and the pressing need for legal and institutional safeguards. The episode serves as a cautionary tale about the dangers of unchecked power and the essential role of accountability in preserving the integrity of governmental institutions.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisement segments and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussions and analyses presented during the episode.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Sheldon Whitehouse]

Now it is time for the Last word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening.

[Rachel Maddow]

Good evening, Rachel. And I'm on Blue Sky 2. I think it's Lawrence O'Donnell, but so I was listening to you, Rachel, in the last segment, they're talking about how the phrase that's illegal used to stop things in Washington. You'd hear that, people would hear that, they would check and they'd go, oh, yeah, it is. We can't do that. And now it's kind of like the go sign. It's like the green light in the Trump version of Washington. It is just. And it leaves the Senators in this, you know, and the House members in this horrible situation. It's okay, let's try this. Let's just try a football thing, okay? Super Bowl's coming up. So it's. It's like they're trying to play pass defense, and the offensive team gets to have like, 13, 14 players, like extras, you know, to run down there. And if Patrick Mahomes can't find one of them, he can throw it to anyone on the bench or anyone in the stands. Like someone, like a fan can catch it in the seats behind the end zone and they'll call that a touchdown. And we would all say, wait a minute, that's against the rules. That's kind of the equivalent of what we're seeing in Washington right now, right?

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

And meanwhile, there's the refs, right, at the Supreme Court being like, well, you know, I mean, he is Patrick Mahomes. Who are we to say what he can't do? I mean, as long as he's got the ball, I mean, really, he must ask. He must act boldly. So, yeah, I mean, it is A time that we are in. But I mean, hearing actually talking to Brian Schatz from Hawaii tonight, stepping off the Senate floor as they are holding the floor all night and hearing his sort of righteous fury about this and like, just keep pushing, just keep doing everything and we're not giving up and we're just gonna keep trying everything we got. Put a little spring in my step. I gotta say, I love that interview with him.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah. No, he has the great advantage of not having been there too long to settle into this kind of thing. We're gonna have Senator Sheldon Whitehouse and Raphael Warnock join us. They're part of this all night Senate protest. That is really. We've never seen that before. We've never seen an OMB director opposed by a party who are willing to stay on the Senate floor all night long and into tomorrow to make that point.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

And it matters for the Russell vote nomination, but it also matters in terms of Republicans in the Senate realizing like, oh, the Democrats here actually will make our lives as annoying as possible. They are gonna push on stuff. They are not gonna go along with us here. Maybe we ought to try to mitigate some of the worst things that are happening so we don't have to endure this. I mean, them sort of setting this at the outset, saying we are capable of mucking things up here for you guys, is a really good line, I think, for them to set in terms of being taken seriously by the Republicans, who I think thought they might be able to take the Democrats for granted here, not in the Senate, they can't take them for granted. And showing up and proving that at this point, two and a half weeks in, I think is a sign of strength from the Dems.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah, it is. And we'll see what they do with it tomorrow. Yeah.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

Thanks, Lawrence.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thanks, Rachel. Thank you. Well, today, Donald Trump called Elon Musk a liar. He couldn't do it himself. He couldn't do it himself because he's afraid of Elon Musk. So you will be surprised to discover how far down the chain of command Donald Trump had to go to find someone to call Elon Musk a liar. And that happened on a day when Clarence Thomas decided to disgrace himself publicly once again by going to the Oval Office to do the swearing in of Donald Trump's Attorney General, Pam Bondi. Now, have Supreme Court justices participated in swearing ins of that sort before? Yes. However, no President of the United States in his first week in office decided by his own hand to write out a provision of the United States Constitution to simply Write out, cross it out. Birthright citizenship. Clarence Thomas knows that all the litigation that will come from that is coming to him. Clarence Thomas knows that the Oval Office he walked into today houses a president who believes he can simply strike lines from the Constitution. Clarence Thomas knows that the Justice Department that Pam Bondi will be running will be defending that action in the United States Supreme Court. He knew he went into a room of Supreme Court litigants today where he should not have been. But Clarence Thomas apparently believes there is no depth of disgrace that he cannot willingly fault to for Donald Trump. And so he added that disgrace to his public record today. And today, the 16th day of the Trump presidency, Donald Trump called Elon Musk a liar in writing. Donald Trump didn't do it himself because he's no doubt counting on Elon Musk to take care of many of his personal debts, including the $83 million that he owes to E. Jean Carroll for her successful lawsuit against him and $500 million he owes to the State of New York because of Attorney General Letitia James successful lawsuit against him. So when the day came that the Trump team had to call Elon Musk a liar publicly and in writing, who was the brave Republican who stepped forward and said, boss, I'll do wasn't any of the Cabinet members who have already been confirmed by the Senate. The person who got the assignment today in the Trump administration to call Elon Musk a liar publicly is Jonathan Blum. He's a former lobbyist for the banking industry and is now a political appointee at the Treasury Department where he worked during the first Trump presidency. He has a mid level job with the title Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary in the Office of Legislative Affairs. What that translates to is he is a lobbyist for the Treasury Department. A lobbyist with Congress. Working on legislative affairs in the Treasury Department means that he has to keep in occasional touch with the Senate Finance Committee staff and the House Ways and Means Committee staff on legislative matters involving the Treasury. Absolutely nothing meaningful happens at Jonathan Blum's level of the Treasury. He might not even get to speak to the Chief of Staff of the Senate Finance Committee, just the lower ranking staff. Anything of significance that the Treasury Department needs to say to the Senate Finance Committee is said by the Treasury Secretary. And so when Senator Ron Wyden, who has served as Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee and now in the minority, serves as the top Democrat on the Senate Finance Committee, which is still a very powerful position in a committee which has jurisdiction over the United States treasury, when he writes to The Treasury Secretary. The Treasury Secretary is supposed to respond. Senator Ron Wyden wrote a letter of complaint to the Treasury Secretary about Elon Musk taking control of the United States treasury, taking control of the actual payment mechanisms in the United States treasury, something no Treasury Secretary has ever actually seized control of. Senator Wyden got a reply letter today that the Treasury Secretary himself, Scott Besant, who should be impeached and won't be for allowing Elon Musk to violate the integrity and security of the United States treasury, was afraid to sign. Treasury Secretary was afraid to sign this letter. The letter says that Elon Musk's band of unnamed computer operators, quote, will have read only access to the coded data of the fiscal Services payment system. Read only access? Really? Does Elon Musk seem like a read only guy to you? Does Elon Musk seem like someone who would accept read only access anywhere or someone who. Who wants his hands on the controls? Elon Musk says he has much more than read only access. Last weekend, when we first learned of Musk's raid on the United States treasury where he was seizing the controls after a Treasury official was removed from his job on Friday by the Treasury Secretary so that Musk could do whatever he wanted to do, Elon Musk wrote at 1:52am on Saturday that he, quote, discovered, among other things, that payment approval officers at treasury were instructed always to approve payments, even to known fraudulent or terrorist groups. That is, of course, a deeply pathological lie by someone whose commitment to public lying is as consistent and strong as Donald Trump's. And then, little more than 24 hours later on Sunday morning at 3:14am Elon Musk said the Department of Government Efficiency Team is rapidly shutting down these illegal payments. That is not read only access. That is exactly what provoked United States Senators like Ron Wyden to demand an investigation and an explanation in writing from the Treasury Secretary. And what Senator Wyden got from someone several rungs down from the Treasury Secretary was, first of all, the insult of not getting a reply in writing from the Treasury Secretary himself. And believe me, that was deliberate within the protocols of the Senate and the Treasury. That was a very deliberate insult by the Treasury Secretary in reaching so far down below him so that he could force Jonathan Blum to sign a letter saying that Elon Musk was lying about shutting down payments at the treasury. That Elon Musk just has read only access. So what is the truth? What access does Elon Musk actually have? And the answer is, and it always will be, we have no idea. There's no reason to believe Elon Musk because he's an inveterate pathological liar, as he has demonstrated on virtually a daily basis for the last few years. And there's no reason to believe the treasury secretary or the utterly powerless Jonathan Blum. So tonight, we don't know what access Elon Musk has in the United States Treasury. What we do know is that the correct amount of access, the legal amount of access for Elon Musk in the treasury is exactly zero. He is not allowed by law to read anything in the possession of the treasury that isn't already public information. And since the news emerged of Elon Musk's invasion of the Treasury, Donald Trump, who it seems is very afraid of Elon Musk, is sitting idly by as Elon Musk has moved on to invading Medicare and Medicaid. That's right. Elon Musk now has access to all of your Medicare information. Elon Musk now has access to every medical service Medicare and Medicaid has ever provided for you or anyone in your family or anyone you know. The treasury letter about Elon Musk does not say whether Elon Musk has copied all of the Treasury Department's data on every taxpayer in America and all of that data on Medicare and Medicaid. That's a question that senators want answered. Has Elon Musk made copies of treasury data and other government data? That's the question everyone in the country wants answered. And there is no answer to that question in Jonathan Blum's letter. And remember, if anyone in the Trump administration like Jonathan Blum does, try to tell you tomorrow or the next day that Elon Musk has not copied all of the Treasury Department's data on every taxpayer in America. There is no way to verify that. We will never have a way to verify that. It is now impossible to know and will always be impossible to know how much data Elon Musk has illegally seized just this week from the United States of America. Elon Musk now has access to, and there is nothing preventing him from having permanent possession of all the data that exists on every American taxpayer and all the data that exists on every Social Security recipient and all the data that exists on everyone with a Social Security number, anyone who's ever been paid in any form, salary or otherwise by the United States government. And along with all of that, Elon Musk has access to and possible permanent possession of all the medical data of every Medicare recipient, every Medicaid recipient. And just pause for a second to consider Just how much the Medicare data alone would be worth to say the pharmaceutical industry data is money. Elon Musk now has a lot more money in that data. Elon Musk has seized the most valuable marketable data that exists in the world. And every bit of that seizure is illegal. It violates privacy laws and other laws. Law professor David super told the Washington Post. So many of these things are so wildly illegal that I think they're playing a quantity game. And assuming the system can't react to all this illegality at once. Empowered by the United States Supreme Court telling him that it is impossible for the president to commit a crime, Donald Trump is now violating the law at a faster pace than he has ever violated the law in his life. Donald Trump is finding new ways to break the law in Washington every day. And tonight on the Senate floor, Democrats are taking an all night stand against the confirmation of a Trump nominee who has promised in writing to violate the law. Donald Trump's choice for budget director, Russell Vogt, is an author of Project 2025, as I'm sure you've already heard, which advocates budgetary law. Breaking that Russell vote promises to carry out by refusing to spend the government funds that Congress orders spent on some programs. And that is against the law. But if you violate that law, you don't get arrested. It's not a criminal law. You just get sued. And then a judge might or might not order you to obey that law. And if it goes to the Trump Supreme Court, there's no telling what might happen. But no matter what does happen, there will be no enforcement power for the judge's order in Donald Trump's Washington. What you're seeing now is the suit and tie version of January 6th. Trump vandals attacking the Capitol, non. Violently attacking the Capitol with a simple defiance of the Constitution that has put Congress in charge of taxing and spending since the beginning of this country. So a group that is operating completely unbound by the law wants you to believe that Elon Musk has read only access to the data. They want you to believe they're being very careful about what Elon Musk, the most reckless person you can imagine, can do with that data. Here's the thing. They should not ever be able to get you to believe that there's a good reason for Elon Musk to have your name, your birth date, your address, your Social Security number, your medical history. Elon Musk has all of that tonight and more and for no good reason. And Donald Trump is letting Elon Musk do that as out of control as the first Trump White House was. They never allowed this to happen. The four White House chiefs of staff in Donald Trump's first White House didn't allow the biggest data breach in the world at the United States treasury and at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security. Donald Trump's new White House chief of staff, Susie Wiles, was profiled as the adult in the room. In Trump world, the Washington press corps cannot let go of the idea that there will be an adult in the room with Donald Trump who makes sure that the bad stuff doesn't happen. It has never been true, but the Washington press corps clings to that idea. And so far, the new White House Chief of staff is the weakest White House Chief of staff in the history of Donald Trump White House Chiefs of staff. She is having the worst start of any Trump White House Chief of staff. In the pre Trump era of American government, a Treasury Secretary would be impeached and removed from office for giving the richest person in the world the keys to the Treasury. But the Republicans and the House of Representatives control the impeachment process. And so everyone in the Trump administration knows anyone can get away with anything and never be impeached. Standing against Donald Trump and Elon Musk now are Democratic members of the Senate and the House where today Democrats in the Government Oversight Committee tried to subpoena Elon Musk.

[Norm Eisen]

Mr. Chairman, I think it's outrageous that this committee will not even entertain.

[Rachel Maddow]

No. You state your. That's not a point of order. A motion are in favor of tabling. Let's have order in this country. You're out of order. You know you're out of order. You know the rules of this committee. There's been a motion. Mr. Elon Musk is out of order and dismantling. I call the question. There's been a motion and second motion by Dr. Fox, second by Mr. Higgins to table. All those in favor of tabling, signify by saying aye. Aye. All those opposed signify by saying no.

[Jonathan Blum]

No.

[Rachel Maddow]

In the opinion of the chair, the ayes have it. Leading off our discussion tonight, Norm Eisen, who served as the White House chief ethics counsel for President Obama back when the White House obeyed the law. He was in federal court today trying to force the Treasury Department to protect Americans financial data in the possession of the Treasury. Norm, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Please update us on the status of your your court attempt to block what's happening at the Treasury.

[Norm Eisen]

Well, Lawrence, thanks for having me. And we anticipate that Tomorrow the court will enter an order saying that the defendants, the Treasury Department, will not provide access to any payment record or payment system of records maintained by or within the treasury with a set of exceptions that do not apply to Elon Musk, that do not apply to the Doge, that do not apply to the White House.

[Rachel Maddow]

The arguments today were the other side, representing the Elon Musk side of this argument was the Pam Bondi Justice Department, right?

[Norm Eisen]

That's correct. But the judge strongly encouraged and in fact went so far as as to draft a proposed order that would leave the status quo in place. Lawrence clearly everyone in the country is concerned about having access to these very sensitive payment system systems. That's why we filed this case with our wonderful partners, State Democracy Defenders Fund and where I'm the chair and public citizen and the unions. And we went to court, we said this cannot be the judge. And there actually were two hearings. The judge suggested that that limitation I read you be in an order freezing the status quo, preventing what you so eloquently articulated the concerns. And I think that order is going to be signed by the court tomorrow. And then we'll argue about a permanent injunction. Mr. Musk has no place in these sensitive, confidential, very personal records at the Treasury Department.

[Rachel Maddow]

Norm Eisen, we're lucky that you're there fighting this one. This is really important. Thank you very much for starting us off tonight.

[Norm Eisen]

Thanks, Lawrence.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you. Senator Sheldon Whitehouse just spoke on the Senate floor. Will be joining us after this break.

[Jeremy Kanondyk]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Jonathan Blum]

An ad from BetterHelp online therapy. We always hear about the red flags to avoid in relationships, but it's just as important to focus on the green flags. If you're not quite sure what they look like, therapy can help you identify those qualities so you can embody the green flag energy and find it in others. BetterHelp offers therapy 100% online, and sign up only takes a few minutes. Visit betterhelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp. H E L p.com.

[Pam Bondi]

I will follow the advice of legal counsel and ultimately the president. Not I will follow the law. Not I will follow court decisions that say what the law is. No, I will follow the advice of legal counsel and ultimately the president.

[Rachel Maddow]

Joni Osnow is Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse. He's a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee and the Senate Finance Committee. Senator, thank you very much for getting to us after the Senate floor. So I've followed most of the confirmation hearings very closely. Is Russell Vote the only one who promised to break the law in his confirmation hearing?

[Pam Bondi]

Yeah, I think that's pretty safe to say. There are some pretty wild things said in the confirmation hearings, but I think he sets himself apart with his persistent insistence that he's not going to follow the law when it comes to the Impoundment act, that he's going to follow the wishes of the president, who obviously opposes the Impoundment act and wants to be able to move money around himself, notwithstanding Congress, and legal advice from his lawyer, who is none other than Mark Paoletta, the guy in the painting with billionaire Harlan Crowe, Clarence Thomas, and court fixer Leonard Leo. So, I mean, it's getting a little wild.

[Rachel Maddow]

So when you try to fight a nomination like this, there's various devices, and here you're going to just use up as much floor time as you possibly can, which will clog the systems of the Senate, make life difficult for the majority. But it's very likely that he's gonna get through with the necessary votes at the end of this. How do you then police someone like this once they're in office?

[Pam Bondi]

Well, step one, I mean, part of this is not slowing things down. Part of this is making the case and putting warnings about what this character is likely to do based on what he said and based on his past behavior into the record so that later on when he does misbehave, we can hold the Republicans who voted for him accountable. They can't say I didn't know they were told. So that's a really important part of it. And then you just have to watch. Now OMB is in the White House. It is quite secret. It is hard to keep track of. And so oversight over OMB is not all that easy. But I suspect this guy's going to make it easy because he's very rash, he's very eccentric, he's very lawless, and he's very much under the thumb of the far right billionaires who have been his patrons for a long time now.

[Rachel Maddow]

And we've already seen what Elon Musk is capable of doing. And this is someone who seems like he's ready very much to be an enabler of Elon Musk.

[Pam Bondi]

Yeah, I think what you said earlier was brilliant, that the Elon Musk raid on the treasury is kind of a coat and tie version of the January six raid on the Capitol. Putting Russ Vogt in at OMB is yet another raid. If treasury is the nerve center of data in the United States government, OMB is the nerve center of policy in the United States government. And the Republicans want to put in somebody who is a complete tool of the right wing billionaire elite who has demonstrably and repeatedly indicated that he will discharge those functions lawlessly and who has extremely eccentric views about government and extremely bitter and vengeful views about Democrats. So he will give us lots of opportunities.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, thank you very much for finding the time for us tonight on this busy night. Really appreciate it.

[Pam Bondi]

Yes, sir. Good to be with you.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you. Coming up, Senator Raphael Warnock will join us right off the Senate floor. Next.

[Jeremy Kanondyk]

Where'd you get those shoes? Easy. They're from dsw. Because DSW has the exact right shoes for whatever you're in into right now. You know, like the sneakers that make office hours feel like happy hour, the boots that turn grocery aisles into runways, and all the styles that show off the many sides of you, from daydreamer to multitasker and everything in between. Because you do it all in really great shoes. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or dsw.com okay business.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Leaders, are you here to play or are you playing to win? If you're in it to win, meet your next MVP NetSuite by Oracle. NetSuite is your full business management system in one convenience suite. With NetSuite, you're running your accounting, your finance, your HR, your e commerce and more, all from your online dashboard. Upgrade your Playbook and make the switch to NetSuite, the number one cloud ERP get the CFO's guide to AI and machine [e-mail] podcast25netsuite.com podcast25 this is an.

[Jonathan Blum]

Ad from BetterHelp online therapy. We always hear about the red flags to avoid in relationships, but it's just as important to focus on the green flags. If you're not quite sure what they look like, therapy can help you identify those qualities so you can embody the green flag energy and find it in others. BetterHelp offers therapy 100% online. And sign up only takes a few minutes. Visit betterhelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com.

[Raphael Warnock]

The Trump administration has demonstrated that it will try this again and again and again. And when they do, the business community will suffer and Georgians will be out of their jobs unless we stand up and say no. If this federal funding freeze continues, as Russell Vogt hopes, the impact will be felt hardest by those who can least afford it.

[Rachel Maddow]

And joining us now is Democratic Senator Raphael Warnock of Georgia. Senator, thank you very much for taking time off the Senate floor to join us tonight. The Senate Democrats are doing something extraordinary tonight. Why now? Why this nominee?

[Raphael Warnock]

Well, this is no ordinary moment. This is not politics as usual. We are in the midst of a real crisis in our country as we have seen these undemocratic antics play out in the early days of the Trump administration. Mr. Russell Vote must be blocked by the United States Senate. These antics of freezing federal funding, all of this before he's even confirmed, shows us the direction that this is going in. And so we're using the levers that we have to slow this train down. But at the end of the day, we're going to need our Republican friends to put country ahead of party, put the people ahead of politics and do the right thing.

[Rachel Maddow]

What's at stake in what you know to be happening in the federal budget and by Donald Trump for Georgians who voted for Donald Trump, they voted for you. And this time they also voted for Donald Trump.

[Raphael Warnock]

My office is being flooded by calls, by emails. Some have reached out to me directly, people I know who do work for us every single day. Lawrence, you know, the thing about the noble work that many of our federal workers do is it's invisible to us very often because they take care of things that we don't think about. I'm thinking about some 10,000 workers at the CDC right now who protect us from plagues and from dangers we don't See, and so often you don't get credit for the bad things you keep from happening. I'm thinking about those who show up and who take care of our veterans, some of whom are homeless, those who make sure that our food is safe and that our water is clean. These are the folks who are being assaulted right now. All across our state. We saw Medicaid portals all across the country shut down. We've seen Head Start programs being challenged and unable to meet payroll and other child care centers. This. This is devastating to ordinary people all across the state. And I've decided, along with my colleagues, that we're not going to take this line down. We're going to stand up for the people who sent us here.

[Rachel Maddow]

How do you manage in the course of a day to decide what needs to be addressed at what moment? For example, you're going through a day and you suddenly get the news that Elon Musk wants everyone, everyone at the CIA to resign, wants them all to resign, wants there to not be a CIA next week. How do you respond to that, while you're also trying to respond to this?

[Raphael Warnock]

No, it's an excellent question. And I think what you've placed your finger on is precisely what they're up to. They are trying to overwhelm us by the sheer pace and pervasiveness of these undemocratic, reckless actions that they are taking. To call it a bull in a china shop is an understatement. And I think that that is clearly the strategy to leave people feeling so overwhelmed that they give up. They are trying to weaponize despair. And the best way to respond to that is to stand up. And so we won't be, you know, trying to hit every ball that's thrown at us. But there is a. That there's a thread that runs through all of this. Donald Trump and the billionaires who are surrounding him are trying to reshape our Democratic Republic in their dark and dystopian image so that the voices of the people are squeezed out and they can create wealth for people who look like them. We saw the sheer callousness of it all, even last night in the discussion around Gaza. Here is a humanitarian catastrophe that's unfolded layers and layers of history and complexity. And Donald Trump is talking about it like it's the next Atlantic City, a Riviera in the Middle East. This kind of unseriousness, these kinds of undemocratic antics have to be checked. And that's the work that we're determined to do.

[Rachel Maddow]

You know, some of these things that are happening I could not possibly have anticipated. And I have to say, this week is worse than I was anticipating last week. And one of the reasons for that is that I know the rules worked there in the Senate where you are now. I know the rules, and I know where the laws are. And so if you said to me, well, they're gonna just completely close up United States Agency for International Development, I would say, no, you can't do that. That was created by law. Only Congress can do that by law. Signed by a president. That's the only way to do that. And then they come along and they just do it. Like, in super bowl terms, it would be as if Patrick Mahomes can throw a pass to a receiver who is way outside, like, you know, just completely off the field, and that person can then run into the end zone from, you know, behind the bench, and they're going to call that a. It's like, no, that can't happen because there are these lines on the football field, and if your foot crosses that line, nothing after that counts. These people are just ignoring every line on this field, every legal line.

[Raphael Warnock]

I agree with that. And, you know, shame on us if we're surprised that if someone who has 34 felony convictions finds himself in the Oval Office, that he engages in lawlessness. This is what we're witnessing. And they're saying the quiet part out loud. Vice President J.D. vance said years ago, as he was, I think, positioning himself for where he is now, he said that. Why don't you. If I were advising Donald Trump, I would tell him to get rid of the civil service, replace them with political appointees. He said that they're going to take us to court is inevitable. And when they rule against us, I mean, think about that. It's the assumption that it is lawlessness, and they tell us what we've got to do. Do what Andrew Jackson did. He said, as Andrew Jackson was getting ready to launch the Trail of Tears, that's who he's quoting. He said, well, the Chief justice has told us what we must do. He's made his ruling. Let him enforce it. And so this kind of reckless disregard for the Constitution, for the law, for norms, we have witnessed Donald Trump do this for years. It's a defining moment in our country. And the eye of history, the judgment of history, is on all of us. But I think especially for my Republican friends on the other side of the aisle, I witnessed them confirm nominee after nominee, a person over HHS who's manifestly unqualified, unprepared putting all of us at risk. And I don't know, maybe it's quaint. I ask myself, as someone who sits in this seat, you know, what do you want history to say about you? Do you want to be on the right side? And it may feel like you're losing in the moment, but it's more important, I think, to be on the right side, to take the long view. Dr. King said the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. And we've got to do everything we can in this moral moment to bend that arc a little bit closer.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator Raphael Warnock, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Raphael Warnock]

Thank you.

[Rachel Maddow]

Coming up, the latest reporting on Elon Musk's maniacal cruelty. That's next. Soup kitchens can no longer feed the hungry. First responders are unable to reach the dead and wounded. Mothers and fathers search in vain for the medicines that keep them alive. That's the first line. The opening of a report in the Washington Post about what Elon Musk is deliberately doing to people in Africa by illegally shutting down the operations of the United States Agency for International Development. It means that over 8 million people in extreme levels of hunger could die of starvation, said an aid worker. What's next? What do we do? The New York Times reports on the impact of Elon Musk's cruelty against children with hiv. Children's medications are tailored to their age, weight and prior exposure to antiretroviral drugs. And the children must be carefully monitored for drug resistance. In children who acquired HIV at birth, the infection can progress very quickly to illness, with death occurring as early as eight to 12 weeks after birth. It took Elon Musk to bring this level of maniacal cruelty to the American government. It took a bitter and twisted South African turned Canadian turned American citizen who remains a private citizen to illegally manipulate the United States government to deliberately and very consciously kill starving children and sick children in Africa, who we were just helping a week ago. Joining us now is Jeremy Kneindyk, president of Refugees International. He's a former USAID official who served in the Biden and Obama administrations. Jeremy, you know this program so well. You know what's happening around the world with such detail. What should we know tonight?

[Elon Musk]

Well, I think what we need to know first is this is doing immediate harm to people in many, many parts of the world already. This is not an issue of the harm will come. The issue is the harm is already underway. A few things that I learned just today. Every day I'm hearing new, new damage that this is Causing. So Science magazine is reporting that a phase one trial for an HIV vaccine, which of course would be a miraculous, transformative thing, was about to start and had to be pulled back because of the USAID funding freeze. I heard today from another organization that is providing health services all across Darfur that they are beginning to shutter their clinics because the funding has stopped. And you know, one thing that's important to understand about the furloughs of all the USAID staff over the last few days. If there were a major earthquake somewhere in the world tomorrow, the US Would not be able to deploy the search and rescue teams that we have done in disaster after disaster for many decades, a hallmark of our visibility in the world, because all the staff who deploy those teams and support those teams are laid off.

[Rachel Maddow]

This because Elon Musk has found things, or believes he's found things in USAID that he doesn't like, items that he doesn't like. He kills the entire thing. That'd be like going into the Defense Department and finding one overspending item or one item in the Defense Department you didn't like. And so you close the entire thing. You stop all paychecks to everyone in the Army, Navy, Marines.

[Elon Musk]

That's right. They're using these. You know, most of these are made up, frankly. There is a huge amount of disinformation, and they're using those as a pretext not just to remove certain programs that they don't like, but to simply destroy. And as Elon Musk said over the weekend to put in the wood chipper an entire federal agency. You know, it is clear that this is not about whatever programs they claim that they're finding. There is a vendetta at play here, and they are using it to destroy a federal agency that is doing immense amounts of good in the world, and they're.

[Rachel Maddow]

And doing it illegally. This is created by an act of Congress to shut it down. Congress would have to pass a bill, get it signed by a president, to shut it down.

[Elon Musk]

That's correct. And that's also something that I think Elon Musk doesn't understand. He had a tweet a few days ago. Live by executive order. Die by executive order. He needs to read the law. The law. It makes clear that Congress enshrined USAID in 1998. It has been a congressionally mandated agency since then. And that cannot just be undone even by the president, much less by a private citizen, billionaire.

[Rachel Maddow]

Jeremy Kanondyk, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Elon Musk]

Thank you. Where'd you get those shoes. DSW has all the shoes you need.

[Rachel Maddow]

For whatever you're into. You know, like running shoes that give new meaning to personal best or everyday.

[Elon Musk]

Sneakers that make coffee runs look cool.

[Rachel Maddow]

Basically, DSW has all the best styles from the brands that always get it right, like Nike, Brooks, Timberland and more.

[Elon Musk]

Oh yeah, did we mention they also.

[Rachel Maddow]

Happen to be the perfect price. Find a shoe for every you at.

[Elon Musk]

Your DSW store and dsw.com.