Lawrence: And on day 134, Musk turned against Trump

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell Episode: Lawrence: And on Day 134, Musk Turned Against Trump
Release Date: June 4, 2025

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1. Introduction: Elon Musk’s Break with Donald Trump

In this episode, Lawrence O’Donnell delves into the escalating conflict between Elon Musk and former President Donald Trump. On the 134th day of Trump’s presidency, Musk publicly condemned Trump’s latest budget proposal, labeling it a “disgusting abomination.” This dramatic fallout marks a significant shift in the relationship between two of the world's most influential figures.

2. The Fallout Over the Trump Republican Budget Bill

Elon Musk’s vehement opposition centers on the Trump administration's massive congressional spending bill. According to O’Donnell, Musk's frustration stems from the administration's refusal to extend his role as a special government employee beyond the initial 130-day period, effectively leading to his dismissal.

Notable Quote:

“I just can't stand it anymore. We have never had a more disturbed holder of the title richest person in the world than the person who holds that title tonight.”
— Elon Musk [12:45]

Musk criticized the budget bill for exacerbating the national deficit, predicting it would balloon to $2.5 trillion and place an unsustainable burden on American citizens. He juxtaposed his own philanthropic choices against the Rockefeller Foundation’s longstanding legacy of using wealth for global good.

3. Political Reactions and Implications

Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse provided insights into the political ramifications of Musk’s denunciation. He highlighted the stress this places on Republican senators, who may now face additional pressure from both within their party and from external influencers like Musk.

Notable Quote:

“This is something that I think is going to be a pretty bitter pill for them to swallow from old Elon.”
— Senator Sheldon Whitehouse [22:21]

Whitehouse emphasized that Musk’s potential financial influence could jeopardize Republican senators’ reelection prospects, especially if they continue to support the contentious budget bill.

4. Media Strategy and Semantic Infiltration

O’Donnell discussed the concept of "semantic infiltration," a term borrowed from Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, to describe how language is manipulated to shape public perception. He illustrated this by contrasting Trump’s characterization of the budget bill as the “big beautiful bill” with Musk’s term “disgusting abomination.”

Notable Quote:

“They are forcing everyone to call his propaganda news through semantic infiltration, calling it Fox News.”
— Lawrence O’Donnell [08:15]

This strategic use of language aims to frame the budget bill in a way that aligns with Trump’s narrative, while opponents like Musk counter with their own terminology to sway public opinion.

5. The Role of Leonard Leo and the Federalist Society

A significant portion of the discussion focused on Leonard Leo, a key figure within the Federalist Society, and his influence on the Supreme Court appointments. Senator Whitehouse detailed Leo’s deep connections with fossil fuel billionaires and his role in shaping the judiciary to favor conservative interests.

Notable Quote:

“Leonard Leo is the court fixer for basically the Koch brothers political operation.”
— Senator Sheldon Whitehouse [24:02]

The tension between Trump and Leo signifies a broader conflict within conservative circles, indicating that Trump feels his judicial appointees were swayed more by Leo and financial backers than by his own directives.

6. Opposition from Democratic Figures

Democratic voices, including Senator Whitehouse, critiqued the Republican approach to budget management, highlighting the cyclical increase in national debt under Republican administrations followed by deficit reductions under Democratic leadership.

Notable Quote:

“Only now does Elon Musk realize what Republicans have always done to the national debt.”
— Lawrence O’Donnell [14:35]

This pattern underscores the Democrats' narrative of fiscal responsibility contrasted against Republican-driven deficit expansion.

7. The Catholic Reporter’s Stand

Sister Simone Campbell, from the National Catholic Reporter, provided a moral and ethical critique of the budget bill. She emphasized how the legislation undermines social safety nets and disproportionately affects marginalized communities.

Notable Quote:

“If we allow this one big, shameful bill to become law, we condemn ourselves to a future where opportunity is bartered away and our social contract is ripped to shreds.”
— National Catholic Reporter [39:49]

Her commentary aligns with the broader theme of accountability and the moral obligations of policymakers to protect the vulnerable.

8. Trump's Dispute with Harvard

The episode also touched upon Donald Trump’s claims regarding his relationship with Harvard University. Trump denied ever applying or being rejected by Harvard, countering reports that suggested otherwise and criticizing journalist Michael Wolff.

Notable Quote:

“I never applied to Harvard. All right, then I guess that settles it.”
— Donald Trump [30:28]

This dispute reflects Trump’s ongoing efforts to control his public narrative and challenge external criticisms.

Conclusion: A Shifting Political Landscape

Lawrence O’Donnell’s episode paints a picture of a fraught political environment where influential figures like Elon Musk are willing to publicly challenge presidential actions and policy proposals. The fallout between Musk and Trump not only highlights personal and ideological rifts but also signals potential shifts in political alliances and power dynamics moving forward.

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Key Takeaways:

• Elon Musk’s opposition to Trump’s budget bill signifies a major split between business leaders and the administration.
• Senator Sheldon Whitehouse highlights the precarious position of Republican senators who may face funding challenges from Musk.
• Semantic infiltration is employed by both sides to manipulate public perception of legislative actions.
• Leonard Leo’s influence within the Federalist Society and the Supreme Court appointments is a central point of contention.
• Sister Simone Campbell and the National Catholic Reporter provide a moral critique of the budget bill, emphasizing its social impact.
• Trump’s public disputes with institutions like Harvard and journalists reflect his broader strategy to maintain control over his narrative.

This comprehensive summary captures the multifaceted discussions and insights presented in the episode, offering listeners an in-depth understanding of the current political tensions and their implications.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And that's commercial break. Nice. Ooh, Hear that? My neck cracked. So satisfying. Speaking of satisfying, I just use a Clorox toilet wand. Ooh. With the cleaner already in it. Yes. All in one. The brush just clicks on. Click. Then you swish. Ah. And pops right off into the trash. Just click, swish, pop. Clorox. Clean feels good. Clean feels good. Oh, we're back. Use as directed.

[Jen Psaki]

The last word with Lawrence o' Donnell starts right now. Hey, Lawrence. Hey, Jen. What's in the water at that high school? I mean, I. Okay. I was fascinated enough by what Evan Osnos has to say. His book is fantastic. It is important. And then I discover you went to the same high school, and there's some kind of massive competency surge out of that high school. What's going on there? Very kind of you. Maybe they make nerdy people, which we also honor. Dorothy Hamill went there. Steve Young. I'm just gonna. I'm making Evan and I a little cooler through that. I don't know Lawrence, so. Yeah. But no, I met Evan a long time ago, but he's such an incredible journalist. Reporter. The book is fantastic. I know you had him on last night. Such a topic. Important topic right now. Yeah. And I felt. I'm so glad you had him tonight because, you know, I'm sure you feel it now that after the few minutes we get to spend with an author like that on a work so massive and so important, we only wish we had more time. And so that's why we have more than one show here. And I'm so glad that he was with you tonight. Absolutely. I know. I was thinking, I can't run into Lawrence's show because I want to hear what he has to say, But I have 10 more questions. Hey, here's the rule. Anyone you went to high school with, do not worry about 10 o' clock, okay? Don't worry about banging into 10 o' clock. You hear that, Steve Young? Come on down. We can have extra minutes. All right. Thanks, Jen. Have a great show. Thank you. Well, we have new reporting tonight that Elon Musk's last TV performance with Donald Trump on Friday in the Oval Office may have been less a farewell ceremony than it was the latest version of Donald Trump's you're fired TV show. Elon Musk lashed out at Donald Trump today. And it may be because, as NBC News is reporting tonight, Musk had hoped to stay on in his special government employee capacity beyond the 130 day period, which the White House ultimately did not accommodate. And if True. Then Elon Musk was effectively fired by Donald Trump, which could explain Elon Musk screaming at the top of his Twitter lungs this afternoon, I just can't stand it anymore. We have never had a more disturbed holder of the title richest person in the world than the person who holds that title tonight. And that person has apparently never been more disturbed than he is tonight. And Elon Musk has over the years publicly discussed suffering from depression and disturbances of various kinds for which he sought treatment that included carrying around a box of drugs during the last presidential campaign, according to reporting in the New York Times. The Times also reported that Elon Musk used Ketamine, Adderall, psychedelic mushrooms, and of course, Ecstasy, which is not a legally prescribed drug. With that in mind, imagine the tension Elon Musk must have been feeling today when at 1:31pm he tweeted, I just can't stand it anymore. No previous richest person in the world has ever declared to the world, I just can't stand it anymore. I'm speaking to you tonight from a building named after the once richest person in the world, John D. Rockefeller, whose riches were built on monopolizing the oil industry, but whose name now lives on and the Rockefeller foundation, which for 112 years has been using Rockefeller wealth to do good in the world, something Elon Musk has chosen not to do. Elon Musk said today, I just can't stand it anymore. He wasn't talking about the feeling of being responsible for killing at least tens of thousands of people, approaching hundreds of thousands of people in Africa and elsewhere in the world who are now starving to death because Elon Musk literally took their food away when he destroyed the United States Agency for International Development, the largest famine relief provider in the world. When Elon Musk said, I just can't stand it anymore today, he wasn't talking about the feeling he has thinking about the people from whom he personally took away AIDS treatment, medication that kept them alive. It's a tortured statement. I just can't stand it anymore. It's something that no previous richest person in the world has ever declared to the rest of the world. The Mali Empire's 14th century leader, Mansa Musa, then by far the richest person in the world, never said, I just can't stand it anymore. But then he was never fired by Donald Trump. Bill Gates, formerly the richest person in the world, described Elon Musk as the world's richest man killing the world's poorest children. But that's not what was torturing Elon Musk. That's not what was driving him crazy. I just can't stand it anymore. He said that. He said that because of his disappointment in Donald Trump, Elon Musk lasted exactly one business day before he exploded with I just can't stand it anymore. Elon Musk was escorted out the door of the White House Friday before sunset. He stayed silent about all things Trump on the next business day, which was Monday day yesterday, made it halfway through a nine to five day today before he cracked on Tuesday and attacked Donald Trump with these words. I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. This massive, outrageous, pork filled congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame on those who voted for it. You know you did wrong. You know it. Donald Trump told them to vote for it. That means Elon Musk is calling for shame on Donald Trump and saying to Donald Trump, you know you did wrong. You know it. This was the moment that all the watchers of Elon Musk and Donald Trump have been waiting for since Elon Musk joined the Trump presidential campaign. How long could the two strangest rich people in the world stand each other? Elon Musk declared Today on day 134 of the Trump presidency, I just can't stand it anymore. And in response, the explosively rageful Donald Trump said nothing. And that is how you know who Donald Trump fears in this world if you attack Donald Trump and Donald Trump says nothing. Donald Trump's silence is the biggest expression of fear that he has. Donald Trump fears not being able to get more money from the richest person in the world. Donald Trump fears the richest person in the world turning his money against Donald Trump's candidates in Republican primary elections. And Donald Trump fear is the richest person in the world convincing Republican members of the Senate and the House not to vote for Donald Trump's budget bill that Elon Musk now calls a disgusting abomination. A disgusting abomination. Semantic infiltration was a term that I only heard from the Harvard professor turned United States Senator, Daniel Patrick Moynihan. He used it to describe a situation in which one side forces the other side to use its language to describe something. Rupert Murdoch did that with the title of his so called cable news channel. It's not a news channel, it's a right wing propaganda channel. But Rupert Murdoch called it Fox News. The second word of that title is a lie. But Rupert Murdoch, through semantic infiltration, knew he could force everyone to call his propaganda news through semantic infiltration, calling it Fox News. And it worked. And it usually does. There's another cable news network that claims to be objective in every way that has been calling the Trump Republican budget bill routinely the big beautiful bill. And that is successful Trump semantic infiltration into that network to force them to use his words to call the cruelest piece of legislation of the 21st century beautiful. The Democrats have countered calling it a big ugly bill. And now the Democrats have another choice. They can call it a disgusting abomination and be quoting Elon Musk every time they do it. And so the successful semantic infiltration of the words big and beautiful met in head on collision with the disgusting abomination today. And disgusting abomination is now the headline phrase of this news cycle about the Trump Republican budget bill. Four minutes after tweeting, I just can't stand it anymore, Elon Musk followed that up with it will massively increase the already gigantic budget deficit to 2, $0.5 trillion and burden American citizens with crushingly unsustainable debt. That is exactly what Democrats have been saying since the day Donald Trump and Republicans started talking about their budget bill. And they said that every day that Donald Trump talked about doing exactly this during his presidential campaign, that they were going to dramatically increase the national debt. That's what the Republican agenda has been from the start. And only now does Elon Musk realize what Republicans have always done to the national debt. Republicans have always increased the national debt. That is the only thing they've ever done with the national debt. And Democratic administrations have always reduced the deficits that have been run up by reckless Republican presidents and Republican Congresses. That is the budgetary cycle we've been in since the 1980s. Republican presidents increase the deficits. Democratic presidents from Bill Clinton forward come into office and reduce the deficits created by the Republican presidents. And then when Republican presidents get another chance, they run up the deficits again. And they always do it exactly the same way with massive tax cuts for the rich. And that is now an old story that Elon Musk learned today. Elon Musk, the person who Donald Trump calls both a genius and a boy, just learned that today. He just learned today. Who runs up the national debt? Who increases the budget deficit every single time a Republican president is in the White House, that is exactly what happens. And every single time a Democratic president is in the White House, those budget deficits come down. Bill Clinton got it down to a balanced budget by the year 2000, and George W. Bush then immediately, immediately raised the national debt by a trillion dollar tax cut to the already massively wealthy. The Republicans are going to massively increase the budget deficit and increase the national debt again. Elon Musk now knows that, apparently. And he spent two hours after that last tweet pondering his next tweet or doing whatever he does when he's not tweeting, looking for stuff, maybe looking for boxes of stuff that he carries around or just looking at the ceiling absentmindedly, like he did in the Oval Office last week, inexplicably, while the President of the United States was speaking and everyone else in the room was looking at the President and listening to him. Everyone except the pained Elon Musk, who already looked like he just couldn't stand it anymore. Elon Musk, who just couldn't bring himself, couldn't bring himself to listen to Donald Trump, to look at him and listen to him while he was speaking. Perhaps because Elon Musk knew right then when he was standing there that he was getting fired. And today, after his two hour Twitter silence, Elon Musk said, in November next year, we fire all politicians who betrayed the American people. That means Elon Musk wants to fire every single Republican member of the House of Representatives except for two who voted for the disgusting abomination of the bill. Two Republicans didn't vote for it. And that has to mean that Elon Musk wants to fire the man who apparently fired him on Friday. We fire all politicians who betrayed the American people, says Elon Musk. That's Elon Musk saying that Donald Trump betrayed the American people by pushing this bill that Elon Musk now calls a disgusting abomination. And so there it is. On the 134th day of the Trump presidency. Elon Musk wants to fire Donald Trump for betraying the American people, which is five years late. Elon. He betrayed the American people on January 6, 2021, and he betrayed the American people when he tried to commit extortion in Ukraine with President Zelensky, which got Donald Trump impeached for the first time. And Donald Trump betrayed the American people by putting Elon Musk in charge of destroying the American government as we know it for as much as he possibly could. For 130 days, the unelected Elon Musk, the richest person in the world, assigned by Donald Trump to take the food away from the mouths of the poorest people in the world, assigned by Donald Trump to be responsible, as Bill Gates said, for killing the poorest children in the world. And so Elon Musk's version of Donald Trump betraying the American people is the purely self interested Musk version of Donald Trump betraying the American people. Mike Johnson, who was perfectly cast in the daily Republican psychodrama of the House of Representatives to play the guy who is obviously really in over his head, turned in another in over his head performance today.

[Sister Simone Campbell]

What do you say to Elon Musk to just call your bill a disgusting.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

Yeah, let me say this.

[Jen Psaki]

Very disappointing.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

Okay.

[Jen Psaki]

I've come to consider Elon a good friend. He's obviously a very intelligent person and he's done a lot of great work. But with all due respect, my friend Elon is terribly wrong about the one big beautiful bill. We had a long conversation yesterday. He and I spoke for, I think, more than 20 minutes on the telephone and I extolled all the virtues of the bill. He seemed to understand that we had a very friendly conversation about it. So the in over his head guy spoke to the most disturbed, richest person in the world in history for 20 minutes yesterday, thinking, hey, problem solved. And the next day, Elon Musk says that that guy should be defeated in his congressional election in Louisiana next year. Not just removed from the speakership, but removed from the House of Representatives and defeated and driven out of Washington forever. In November next year, we fire all politicians who betrayed the American people. He means Mike Johnson, the Republican speaker of the House betrayed the American people. And all the other Republican members of the House who voted for that bill betrayed the American people. If you're a Republican senator tonight, you're in a position to stop this bill in its tracks and do it for the richest person in the world. And if you don't, you will be taking the gamble that Elon Musk will be funding your opponent in your reelection campaign to the Senate next year. The mild mannered and capable Republican Senate Majority Leader John Thune now has absolutely no idea how to defend his Republican senators running for reelection against campaign attacks from Elon Musk. And John Thune's. Republican members of the Senate know that John Thune cannot defend them. Are you concerned that he could help tank this bill and whip members against it? Do they listen to him or they listen to you? Well, my hope is that as he has an opportunity to further assess what this bill actually does, he'll come to a different conclusion. But nevertheless, I mean, we have a job to do. Jon Thune's problem tonight is that Elon Musk no longer has a job to do in the Trump administration and he is reportedly feeling like he got fired. And Elon Musk, who is himself a disgusting abomination, has just renamed your budget bill. NBC News is also reporting that Elon Musk is very disappointed that the bill doesn't include electric vehicle tax credits. Those tax credits championed by Democrats now being repealed by Republicans have been very important to making Elon Musk the richest person in the world. And so Elon Musk is happy to run up the budget deficit as long as we're doing it in a way that makes more money for him. Like the electric vehicle tax credits. Elon Musk is the abomination that the Republicans in the Senate and the House and that Donald Trump deserve. Senator Sheldon Whitehouse will join us next.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And that's Commercial break. Nice. Oh, hear that? My neck cracked. So satisfying. Speaking of satisfying, I just use a Clorox toilet wand. Ooh. With the cleaner already in it. Yes. All in one. The brush just clicks on. Click. Then you swish. Ah. And pops right off into the trash. Just click. Swish. Bop. Clorox. Clean feels good. Clean feels good. Oh, we're back. Use as directed.

[Jen Psaki]

MSNBC presents a new original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week, she sits down with Jason Bateman and Rachel Maddow. We are in a really important moment, and we're an important place in it, and I'm glad that we're there together. The Best People with Nicole Wallace. Episodes one and two are available now for early access, ad free listening and bonus content. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Elon Musk turning on Donald Trump. Today comes after Donald Trump turned on the man who chooses Donald Trump's Supreme Court justices. Last week, Donald Trump posted. I was new to Washington, and it was suggested that I use the Federalist Society as a recommending source on judges. I did so openly and freely, but then realized that they were under the thumb of a real sleazebag named Leonard Leo, a bad person who in his own way, probably hates America and obviously has his own separate ambitions. He openly brags how he controls judges and even justices on the United States Supreme Court. Joining us now is Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island. He's a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Senate Finance Committee, and the Budget Committee. He's the ranking member on the subcommittee of the Judiciary Committee on Federal Courts, which held a hearing on judges today. Federal judges. Senator Whitehouse, I want to begin with Elon Musk's new description of the Trump budget bill. But I am really eager to get to what appears to be an area of agreement that you might have with Donald Trump about his other new enemy, Leonard Leo. But what does it mean, do you think in the United States Senate that Elon Musk is telling Republicans in the Senate not to vote for this?

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

Well, it's a huge stressor for the Republicans because they're already having trouble trying to get together. My guess is that they're hearing from Republicans in the House, hey, we had to vote for this stupid thing, but I'm in real trouble if it passes. You've got to clean this up. They've got members who don't want sections of the bill. They're probably somewhere between eight and 12 Republican senators who have real problems with this bill of one kind or another. And now adding to all those predicaments, they have this sort of bombshell accusation from Elon Musk. And if he chooses to back it up with his previous threats to put a bounty on, on the head of Republican candidates in primaries and like whoever wants to run against them, here's 20, 50, whatever million dollars that could really gum up the election prospects in the Senate. So this is something that I think is going to be a pretty bitter pill for them to swallow from old Elon.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. And we've all been waiting for this moment when the Trump Musk breakup occurs. But none of us could have predicted exactly how it would occ and what would be the at least the public area of disagreement, leaving aside the possibility that Donald Trump just plain fired him. But I'm so eager to. I'm so eager to.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

It's kind of high school.

[Jen Psaki]

Go ahead, Senator.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

Sorry, I said it's kind of high school, isn't it?

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, yeah, very much so. So Leonard Leo, Donald Trump is calling him a sleazebag. You have always used more elevated language than that on this program to say what I translated to be the same thing.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

Yeah, this is frankly hysterical thing to see. Leonard. Leo is the court fixer for basically the Koch brothers political operation. There are a few other creepy billionaires in that affinity circle, but he has basically this is the Supreme Court, the dark money built. Leo was the fixer. And the creepy billionaires, primarily the Coke operation, but others the ones who showed up in the billionaire gifts program for the amenable justices. By the way, Leo went on the trip with Alito, the billionaire jet and fancy fishing trip. Leo is in the painting with Harlan Crow, the sugar daddy for his pet Justice Clarence Thomas. Leo is like deep in the thick of all of this stuff and Trump has suddenly blown up at him. And here's what it might reflect. Trump might be finally figuring out that his Supreme Court appointees weren't his Supreme Court appointees after all. They were the Koch operations Supreme Court appointees. He was told to appoint them by Leonard Leo and by his White house counsel, Don McGahn, both of whom are Federalist Society Koch brothers, Leonard Leo operatives. So he could be pretty bloody livid now that he sees the court isn't doing everything that he wants, but it's doing everything that the fossil fuel billionaires want. It's like, I got played here, I got chumped here. And Trump does not like to be chumped. So this is a little bit like gang warfare between House of Trump and House of Coke. And the piece that was brokered with that Federalist Society so called list that held Trump to the deal that they would get to appoint the Supreme Court justices in return for them laying off on him in the 2016 election because they were, you remember, they were clobbering him before that list solved the problem. This is, I mean, if you're like the FBI, you kind of have to love a gang war breaking out as long as no innocents are getting hurt. And so I feel a little bit like, yeah, you guys, you just keep fighting with each other. This is too good. And then of course the Wall Street Journal editorial page chimes in. This is a full on right wing billionaire mess up.

[Jen Psaki]

And what is the Wall Street Journal's role in all of this?

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

The Wall Street Journal has been shilling for the House of Coke for the fossil fuel billionaire interests all along. I mean, within the last decade they were still calling climate change a hoax. Every time you go after the judges, they gin up their editorial page to tangle. When they're in real trouble, they put somebody like Sam Alito in the Wall Street Journal editorial page to do a fake interview to try to get them out of trouble. And the person that they were getting out of trouble back then with the Alito interview was actually Leonard Leo, who we were pursuing to be interviewed by the Judiciary Committee. And Alito comes in to say, that's all illegal. You can't interview this guy because that's like you're interfering in the court. Omitting the fact that we're going to interview Leo about was these gifts to Alito that Leo was involved in. I mean, it's just, you couldn't make it up. You couldn't make it up and it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of guys. This is the court packers. This is the billionaire sneaks who ran a covert operation against their own country to try to take over the Supreme Court. And the fact that this row is fired up amongst the different right wing miscreants is, I mean, it's beautiful.

[Jen Psaki]

And Republicans on the Judiciary Committee had a hearing today, apparently outraged that federal judges would ever issue rulings against Donald Trump as president.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

Yeah, these, these are the same Republicans who cheered and actually sought nationwide injunctions against Joe Biden. And now that nationwide injunctions are happening against Donald Trump and lots of them, because he's a massive lawbreaker, they're shocked, shocked to find that there are national nationwide injunctions going on. I mean, the hypocrisy borders on comedy. But, you know, they've got a mission. They want to try to put the judges, create as much animus and threat pressure against the judges as they can. And so that's part of the hearing today. And they want to continue this sort of phony blony narrative that Trump is the victim of judges rather than the lawbreaker that judges are blowing the whistle on. Cuz that's their job when you're dealing with a lawbreaker.

[Jen Psaki]

Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, thank you very much for running your tutorial on Leonard Leo on this program for years now. So that we were all ready today or this last week when Donald Trump finally turned on Leonard Leo, which was the plot twist that I did not see coming.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

Too beautiful.

[Jen Psaki]

Thank you, Senator. And coming up, Donald Trump denies that he applied to Harvard and got rejected by Harvard. That's next.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And that's commercial break. Nice. Ooh, hear that? My neck cracked. So satisfying. Speaking of satisfying, I just used a Clorox toilet wand. Ooh. With the cleaner already in it. Yes. All in one. The brush just clicks on. Click. Then you swish, swish, swish. Ah. And pops right off into the trash. Just click, swish, pop. Clorox. Clean feels good. Clean feels good. Oh, we're back. Use as directed.

[Jen Psaki]

Introducing the Weeknight on msnbc, join hosts Alicia Menendez, Michael Steele and Simone Sanders.

[E.J. Dionne]

Townsend for a spirited conversation challenging each.

[Jen Psaki]

Other and our leaders about the biggest issues of the day. It's about knowing what you are for, who you are for. That's what politics is about. It's engagement. We are going to dive deeper into the legal side of today's breaking news. The weeknight, Monday through Friday at 7:00pm Eastern on MSNBC. Last night at 7:24pm, Donald Trump had Harvard on his mind once again. And he wrote this. Michael Wolff, a third rate reporter who is laughed at even by the scoundrels of the fake news, recently stated that the only reason I'm beating up on Harvard is because I applied there and I didn't get in. That story is totally false. I never applied to Harvard. All right, then I guess that settles it. The president who told 30,573 lies, according to the official count by the Washington Post during his first presidency, now says he never applied to Harvard and was never rejected by Harvard. So that settles it, right? Or maybe telling over 30,000 lies while President and 30,000 lies in the four years since he was president when he wasn't president, and then thousands of lies already in the first 134 days of this presidency means there is no way to believe Donald Trump about anything. Senator Sheldon Whitehouse in April wondered publicly, can't help but wonder how many Trumps got rejected by Harvard. The Boston Globe reports on how Donald Trump's attacks on America's oldest university could be putting the nation at risk. A Defense Department official pleaded with her superiors not to cancel a Harvard University grant focused on biological threats because doing so could pose grave and immediate harm to national security. Those revelations emerged in court filings Monday in Harvard's lawsuit over the Trump administration's nearly? 3 billion in funding cuts. Those court filings detail the extent of the cuts to Harvard, including the government in one fell swoop terminated grants related to all manner of medical, scientific, technological and other projects ranging from improving the neurologic outcomes for pediatric cancer survivors, to developing drugs to treat long term radiation exposure and chemotherapy, to studying the effects of particulate matter exposure on military veterans, to creating technologies that provide energy relevant minerals for economic and national security. Donald Trump claims this is all being done because he has declared himself to be America's most sensitive person in history about antisemitism, far more sensitive than the Jewish president of Harvard University. This we all know is false, the New York Times reports. As a younger man, Mr. Trump kept a book of Adolf Hitler's speeches in a cabinet by his bed, according to his first wife. During his first term as president, he expressed admiration for some aspects of the Nazi Fuhrer's leadership, according to his chief White House aide at the time. He has dined at his Florida estate with a Holocaust denier, while his New Jersey golf club has hosted events at which a Nazi sympathizer spoke. Joining now is E.J. deon, an opinion columnist for the Washington Post, a senior fellow at Brookings Institution and a professor at Georgetown University. He's also a Harvard graduate, a member of Crimson Courage, an alumni group founded earlier this year to encourage Harvard to stand up to the Trump administration's attack. E.J. i want to just put in a note here about Michael Wolff. Who? Donald Trump. When he's. When Donald Trump's denying Michael Wolf's claim that Donald Trump was rejected by Harvard, Donald Trump calls him a third rate reporter. Donald Trump cooperated with Michael Wolff on Michael Wolff's first book, allowed him to basically live in the White House during the workday. Michael Wolff just hung out in the lobby of the West Wing and kind of wandered the corridors almost as much as he wanted, apparently. And nothing in Michael Wolff's book of substance, that first book, Inside Donald Trump, that was such an explosively huge bestseller, nothing has been proven wrong at any level, all thanks to the access that Donald Trump granted him because he thought he was such a good reporter, by the way, from having seen the way Michael Wolff used to work in New York City for various publications. So I just wanted to get that Michael, Michael Wolf note in there because I know that part of the tweet is a lie. I know he's lying when he says that stuff about Michael Wolf. So I don't know. I don't know whether Donald Trump was rejected by Harvard or not. And I don't know how to figure that out based on what Donald Trump says.

[E.J. Dionne]

You're right about Wolf's history. You're also right that the more ferocious Trump denial is, the more you're inclined to doubt that it's true. And finally, he did Michael Wolff a great favor by plugging this new book that he said is so awful. But I think what you're seeing here, whether it's Trump's anger about being rejected by Harvard or maybe that's not true, then it's about power. Either way, it's about political power or personal power or both. And I think the really scary thing here is not for people who have great affection for Harvard like I do. It's people who are at every other university in America. It's people at every independent civil society institution in America, because this is about Donald Trump trying to take control of a private institution and dictate how it will behave and in its institution, whose job is to transmit and create knowledge. And as you showed in that reading you did, the kinds of grants that are being cut off, these aren't grants that are mostly about aggrandizing Harvard. They're about grants that help everybody by curing disease, by helping our national security. And the guy at the Defense Department who told his bosses, wait a minute, that don't cut off that grant. We need this. And so I think it's really important for Everybody out there to rally behind Harvard, because you're not really rallying just behind Harvard. You're rallying behind freedom, academic freedom, the freedom of students to protest if they want, on the right or on the left, and the freedom of people to do research that helps us all.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. The president of Harvard said last week that this funding is a contract. It's work they want us to do. They're doing. Harvard's doing research on pediatric cancer, as we just learned from the globe there in that list. So Harvard's working on cancer in children and babies, and Donald Trump told them to stop doing that, and they were doing it under a contract with the United States of America.

[E.J. Dionne]

You really talked about this last night. I appreciated what you said last night about what Musk has done with his cuts. So many of these cuts are directed at things that do good and people that do good. These researchers who do good, the people in USAID who did good by protecting kids from starving, and in this case, to go after institutions that produce knowledge for the future. Steven Pinker, a professor at Harvard who's been very critical of Harvard in so many ways, wrote a really powerful piece saying this was a crime against future generations that's going on here. And again, I keep emphasizing it because I know there are a lot of people out there who mistrust Harvard or who say it's an elitist institution of all of that. But again, you're not just standing up for Harvard when you want to fight Trump on this. You're standing up for everything it does and everything all kinds of other institutions do for the country.

[Jen Psaki]

E.J. dion, thank you very much for joining our discussions tonight.

[E.J. Dionne]

It's great to be with you, Lawrence.

[Jen Psaki]

Thank you. Coming up, the editors of the Catholic Reporter are calling the Trump budget bill one big, shameful bill. Sister Simone Campbell, who is one of those editors, will join us next. Breaking news. Elon Musk and I agree with each other. The GOP tax scam is a disgusting abomination. Every single Republican who voted for the one big, ugly bill should be ashamed of themselves.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

They aren't helping their constituents. They are hurting their constituents.

[Jen Psaki]

The National Catholic Reporter, in an editorial, calls it one big, shameful bill, writing the promise of American democracy is not merely the freedom to accumulate wealth. It is the promise of mutual obligation, of building a society in which our fortunes rise or fall together. If we allow this one big, shameful bill to become law, we condemn ourselves to a future where opportunity is bartered away and our social contract is ripped to shreds. Jesus weeps. Over this cruelty, so do we. We must reject this heartless bargain and instead pursue policies that honor the dignity of every citizen and the collective well being of our nation. Joining us now is Sister Simone Campbell, award winning author of Hunger for Prophetic Communities, Contemplation and the Common Good. She's a member of the editorial board of the National Catholic Reporter as the former executive director of the Catholic advocacy group Network. Sister, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Always an honor to have you here. I for a reader of the Catholic Reporter, as I am, I am not surprised by the thinking of the editorial board, as I know some of you, I'm a little surprised about going public with it. I'm sure that's not an easy thing. It's not a magazine intended to be in the dead center of our politics. How did you arrive at this?

[Sister Simone Campbell]

I think that the critical factor in this is how this bill undermines all, all of the safety net for caring for those at the margins in our society. They do it directly by cutting Medicaid, by cutting snap, which is food stamps, by cutting WIP for pregnant women. They do it indirectly by raising such debt that it will automatically trigger cuts to Medicare. And when you have such an egregious bill that hurts the most marginalized people in our society, you have to stand up. Our faith calls us to speak and to be witnesses to what is right and just.

[Jen Psaki]

Donald Trump is talking about trying to revoke the tax exempt status of any nonprofit institution that does not agree with him, or at least he perceives to not agree with him, like Harvard University. I suppose this kind of editorial would turn his focus toward the Catholic Church. But then again, I would expect him to be afraid of the number of Catholic voters out there who might have something to say about that and who.

[Sister Simone Campbell]

Did have something to say about his election. So, I mean, that is sort of the mystery to me that a large percentage of Catholics did vote for him. So I think that wake up call might give him pause for how he approaches this. But Lawrence is fear of loss of a tax exempt status when compared to the fear of the hunger of struggling families is a no brainer. We have to stand up for the needs of the most marginalized.

[Jen Psaki]

Sister, you have committed your life to a kind of activism that invariably intersects with politics. Is that something you anticipated at the beginning of your vocation?

[Sister Simone Campbell]

Well, no. I am a sister of social service. And so we've always been about social work and social engagement. And actually our foundress was the first woman in the Hungarian parliament when she was the head of our community when it was founded there. So we have it in our roots. But I didn't expect it from my life's journey. But I will tell you that it is a deep source of spiritual nourishment to go to prayer with these really terrible bills and to find in Scripture and find in prayer the response that says, care for those most at the margins.

[Jen Psaki]

Sister Simone Campbell, always spiritually nourishing to have you join us. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Sister Simone Campbell]

Thank you for the opportunity, Lawrence. I appreciate it.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

Thank you.

[Jen Psaki]

We'll be right back. Sister Simone Campbell gets tonight's last word.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And that's commercial break. Nice. Ooh. Hear that? My neck cracked. So satisfying. Speaking of satisfying, I just used a Clorox toilet wand. Ooh. With the cleaner already in it. Yes. All in one. The brush just clicks on. Click. Then you swish, swish, swish. Ah. And pops right off into the trash. Just click, swish, pop. Clorox. Clean feels good. Clean feels good. Oh, we're back. Use as directed.