Lawrence and Rachel Maddow discuss Trump saying in 2020 presidents can't deploy the National Guard

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell Episode: Lawrence and Rachel Maddow discuss Trump saying in 2020 presidents can't deploy the National Guard
Release Date: June 10, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O’Donnell engages in a deep dive into President Donald Trump's controversial decision to deploy the National Guard to Los Angeles in response to relatively minor protests. Joined by prominent guests, including MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow and economist Jason Furman, the episode unpacks the broader implications of Trump's actions on governance, media coverage, gun laws, and international relations.

1. Trump’s Deployment of National Guard to Los Angeles

Lawrence O’Donnell initiates the discussion by critiquing President Trump’s decision to send 2,700 National Guard troops to Los Angeles. He emphasizes the disproportionality of the response to the size of the protests.

“Donald Trump sent 2,000 California National Guard troops to Los Angeles for one of the smallest public and televised protests in Los Angeles history.” [00:31]

O’Donnell argues that this move is a strategic distraction orchestrated by Trump to divert media attention away from negative coverage, including impeachment discussions and unpopular budget proposals. The deployment serves to monopolize news cycles with images of troops in Los Angeles, effectively suppressing other significant news stories.

2. Media Coverage and Suppression of Other News

O’Donnell criticizes the media’s focus on Trump's actions in Los Angeles, suggesting that it overshadows critical issues such as rising firearm deaths among children.

“Fox and several of the right leaning Christian zealot media are just obsessed about this very minor protest in LA. They don't want you to know that it’s the number one cause of death in children ages 1 to 17 is death by gunshot.” [Timestamp not specified]

He highlights how the media’s fixation on Trump’s troop deployment and his public stumble at Air Force One detracts from more pressing concerns affecting American society.

3. Gun Laws and Firearm Deaths in Children

A significant portion of the episode addresses the alarming increase in firearm deaths among children, correlating this rise with the enactment of more permissive gun laws post the 2010 Supreme Court decision.

“Firearm deaths of children and teenagers rose significantly in states that enacted more permissive gun laws after the Supreme Court in 2010 limited local government's ability to restrict gun ownership.” [Transcript around 05:00]

O’Donnell links Trump’s and the Republican Party’s stance on gun control to these tragic statistics, arguing that Republican-controlled states with lax gun laws see higher rates of child firearm deaths.

4. Criticism of President Trump’s Behavior and Media Obsession with Stumbling

O’Donnell examines the media’s disproportionate focus on President Trump’s physical stumbles, drawing parallels to the excessive coverage of Joe Biden’s similar incidents.

“By keeping the attention focused on Los Angeles, tonight many news consumers will never hear what Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said...” [Approximately 10:00]

He underscores how such trivial matters are weaponized against presidents, detracting from their policies and actions, and maintaining a narrative that emphasizes personal shortcomings over substantive leadership.

5. Analysis of Trump’s Trade War with China and Economic Impact

Economist Jason Furman joins the discussion to analyze the ramifications of Trump’s tariffs on China, particularly focusing on rare earth elements essential for U.S. industries.

“China is withholding rare earths from us. And we're now in a place where we might concede some of the things that Biden did for national security...” [28:15]

Furman explains that the tariffs have not only strained U.S.-China relations but have also hampered American industries reliant on these materials. He suggests that the unilateral approach has been detrimental, advocating for a more coordinated effort with allies to effectively negotiate trade terms.

O’Donnell and Furman discuss the long-term economic fallout, noting that American consumers bear the brunt of increased prices due to tariffs, while the intended economic benefits for the wealthy remain questionable.

6. Discussion on Ambiance Apparel Raid and Immigration Issues

The episode delves into the controversial raid on Ambiance Apparel in Los Angeles, where 46 workers were detained without clear charges. O’Donnell criticizes the administration’s misuse of immigration enforcement.

“Donald Trump got 46 of them and not one of them has been charged with a crime.” [Around 18:29]

He argues that the raid was not about public safety but rather an overreach of authority aimed at instilling fear and distractibility, further exacerbating tensions within immigrant communities.

7. Ukraine-Russia Conflict and International Relations

The conversation shifts to international affairs, particularly Russia’s drone attacks on Kyiv and Zelensky’s response to Trump’s characterization of the conflict as a playground fight between two children.

“This is an adult. Putin is definitely not a child. He knows exactly what he's doing. This is more like an adult maniac...” [31:46]

Retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling provides insights into the escalating conflict, emphasizing Russia’s continued aggression and Ukraine’s resilient defense strategies. The discussion highlights the global implications of domestic political maneuvers and the importance of accurate media representation in international conflicts.

8. Insights from Guests: Jason Furman and General Mark Hertling

Jason Furman critiques the effectiveness of Trump’s trade policies and the mishandling of economic strategies that have resulted in increased national debt and strained international relations.

“We should have focused on China from the beginning, and we should have gotten our allies together with us...” [30:47]

General Hertling reinforces the severity of Russia’s actions in Ukraine, comparing Putin’s aggression to a bully threatening innocent lives, and underscores the necessity of robust defense measures.

“You have a bully entering a playground with a loaded weapon and threatening kids. It is an apt description of what Russia has been doing...” [34:45]

Conclusion

Lawrence O’Donnell wraps up the episode by reiterating the need for media outlets to prioritize significant national and international issues over trivial distractions orchestrated by the current administration. He emphasizes the importance of informed public discourse and the responsibility of both the government and media in shaping an accurate portrayal of events.

“You can't cower to bullies. You don't need to be hopeless. We have our voices and I will continue using mine.” [31:16]

Overall, this episode offers a critical examination of President Trump’s strategies to control media narratives, the tangible impacts of his policies on American society, and the broader implications for international relations. Through incisive analysis and expert insights, O’Donnell provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the intersecting issues shaping the current political landscape.

Transcript

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Well, Donald Trump will not like the next hour of news coverage you're about to watch on this program. Donald Trump will not control this program. And that is what Donald Trump has been trying to do this weekend by sending troops to Los Angeles in response to what's actually one of the smallest public and televised protests in Los Angeles history. There have been protests 100 times larger than this that never provoked this kind of response. Donald Trump was drowning in the worst media coverage of his return to the presidency just last week, going into the weekend with Elon Musk saying Donald Trump should be impeached and the cruelest Republican budget bill in history in trouble in the United States Senate. While the polling on Donald Trump's tariffs is overwhelming, overwhelmingly negative. Send troops to LA and TV news will forget about everything else. That's what Donald Trump had to be hoping, and that's what he won't get. In this hour, we will cover what is happening in Los Angeles. The California government's plea in a filing in a federal court tonight says this court should reject the unlawful attempt by Donald Trump to wrest away the state's control of its own National Guard for improper and unjustified ends. But there is other news Donald Trump doesn't want you to know about. In other places in this world, the number one cause of death in children ages 1 to 17 in this country where Donald Trump is president is death by gunshot. And very few of those gunshots, very few are accidents. They're mostly homicides and suicides. In a new statistical analysis reported by the New York Times today, quote, firearm deaths of children and teenagers rose significantly in states that enacted more permissive gun laws after the Supreme Court in 2010 limited local government's ability to restrict gun ownership, a new study has found. In states that maintained stricter laws, firearm deaths were stable after the ruling, the researchers reported, and in some, they even declined. And so the position of Donald Trump and the Republican Party on gun laws in this country means that more children are dying the more Republicans control gun laws in your state. That's something that won't be getting the news attention that it deserves tonight because Donald Trump has told the news media to look over there. Look at Los Angeles. And with TV screens filled with live shots from Los Angeles, where nothing is happening right now, you could easily miss the video of Donald Trump stumbling as he went up the stairs yesterday to Air Force One. That's the thing Donald Trump doesn't want you to see more than any other video that could possibly occupy your television screen tonight. I would not be drawing any attention at all to a 78 year old man or a 28 year old man stumbling on stairs were it not for the deranged obsession Donald Trump and some in the news media had for Joe Biden once stumbling on those same stairs, going to that same airplane. We've all stumbled. At some point, we all will again. It is not news. But Donald Trump and much of the news media weaponized that kind of image against Joe Biden as they never had before in the history of American news coverage of stumbling, which is a very tiny body of news coverage, because stumbling was never news before Joe Biden was president. By the time Donald Trump stumbled on the stairs, he had already ordered 2,000 California National Guard troops into action in Los Angeles or inaction. But hearing that that might not be enough to keep suppressing the Trump stumbling video. Donald Trump has now tonight ordered the movement of 700 Marines in California for deployment in Los angeles. That is 700 Marines out of the 57,000 Marines stationed in the state of California permanently. And those 700 Marines have absolutely nothing to do in Los Angeles tonight. But their movements will help suppress news attention to the video of the 78 year old man stumbling on those airplane steps. The Trump stumble video will never be seen on the news network that ran the Biden stumble video constantly on a loop. They firmly believe that a video of the President stumbling on steps, they believed that then. They believed that that was proof that a person was not capable of being president if that person was Joe Biden. None of the small minded news media obsessing over a president's stumbling on steps seem to know that the longest serving President of the United States who died in his first term as president, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, could never climb any steps, was in a wheelchair every day of his presidency and every day of his governorship in the State of New York before the presidency. You would not be seeing that image of Donald Trump stumbling on those steps. If Donald Trump and so much of the news media had not spent literally years screaming about an image of Joe Biden doing the same thing. By keeping the attention focused on Los Angeles. Tonight, many news consumers will never hear what Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said in response to Donald Trump comparing Vladimir Putin and President Zelensky to two kids fighting in a playground. President Zelenskyy said this is more like an adult maniac who walks into a playground where children are sitting, comes in with a gun and just starts taking people. He abducted children. That's a fact. He, he kills these children. He has killed them. That's a fact. He left children without parents. That's what this is like. And today, Donald Trump's unqualified, incompetent, and pathologically lying Secretary of Health and Human services Robert Kennedy, Jr. Who owes his job entirely to his father's name, fired all of the center for Disease Control prevention experts on vaccines. All of them gone. The Trump Secretary of Health and Human Services, who is determined to be as harmful to your health as any government official has ever been, is a dangerous disgrace whose madness will go unnoticed today because the cameras are in Los Angeles where nothing is happening. Now. Yes, there was some vandalism in these small protests, no real violence by the protesters. The vandalism included a couple of electric cars on fire. But when every Tesla stuck in the Pacific Palisades neighborhood of Los Angeles in January was on fire, along with almost every house in the Palisades, Donald Trump sent no one. He sent no one to the other fires that were raging in Los Angeles after the Palisades fire got started, with cars burning everywhere in the city. Donald Trump sent no one. The Washington Post is reporting that Donald Trump was very worried last week after Elon Musk called for Donald Trump's impeachment. And Donald Trump started making panicked phone calls telling people that Elon Musk is, quote, a big time drug addict. So that's Donald Trump confessing that in his view, he put a big time drug addict in charge of, among other things, Social Security. Donald Trump, who claims he always hires the best people before he fires those people, took governing advice from someone who he now calls a big time drug addict. Elon Musk's attacks on Donald Trump went quiet over the weekend when Elon Musk might have come to the realization of just how fully dependent on government his position as the richest person in the world is and always has been. Elon Musk's fortune was made in selling electric cars to American liberals, especially, especially California liberals who wanted to do their part to inhibit climate change. And those car sales were supported by massive tax subsidies. Written into law for the purchase of electric cars by liberals in the federal government. Liberal Democrats, they built Elon Musk's fortune. Elon Musk's rocket launching company and satellite communication company are also hugely dependent on government contracts. Donald Trump in effect, threatened Elon Musk, saying he would pay a heavy price if he actually switched his political support from Republican to Democrat. And that kind of threat, illegal threat, is something that is now taken for granted. Gangsterism in the Trump presidency, news media just takes that for granted. No scandal to them. According to Elon Musk, his big break with Donald Trump came last week and only last week, when Elon Musk for the first time ever realized how much the Trump Republican budget bill would increase the national debt. Something that has been public information since Inauguration Day. Adding two and a half trillion dollars to the national debt while executing the largest Medicaid cuts in history, which will also trigger Medicare cuts, is not an easy vote for a few Republicans in the Senate. And so the bill's in trouble. What had been the public legislative drama of getting that budget bill packed with cruelty through the Senate has now disappeared in favor of live camera shots tonight of nothing happening in Los Angeles. And that's the way Donald Trump wants it. That's Donald Trump in the control room picking the shots. The Republican controlled Senate Finance Committee has to vote on the most important provisions of the Trump cruel budget bill before it goes to a vote in the full Senate. And the Senate Finance Committee has jurisdiction over tax cuts, the Medicaid cuts, the Medicare cuts in that bill. The Republican chairman of the Senate Finance Committee has not been able to even schedule a committee vote on those provisions yet, which is an indication they simply do not have those votes yet. They don't have enough Republican votes. But thanks to Donald Trump's movement of troops in California, Republicans in the Senate can try to put a deal together this week without any real press attention as long as Donald Trump can keep moving troops in California, keep those live camera shots going where nothing is happening in Los Angeles, and keep those banners up on the protest porn network coverage of threatening moves that they think might happen in the next 10 minutes or the next hour or the next day. That's Donald Trump in the control room. California Governor Gavin Newsom has objected publicly and legally to the deployment of California National Guard, which is supposed to be under the California governor's jurisdiction in legal filings. Tonight, the state of California told a federal court the Constitution grants the states, not the federal executive, the authority to conduct ordinary law enforcement activities and to determine how Their own state laws should be enforced. And in 2020, Donald Trump used to agree with that. We have laws. We have to go by the laws. We can't move in the National Guard. I can call insurrection, but there's no reason to ever do that. Even in a Portland case, we can't call in the National Guard unless we're requested by a governor. No reason to ever do that. That was then. And what has been happening in Los Angeles is actually just ordinary law enforcement. The protests there, at their largest, were among the smallest we've ever seen in the history of televised protests, protests big enough for television. In Los Angeles county, which is home to 10 million people, Los Angeles county, the San Francisco Chronicle captured these images of the California National Guard. Governor Gavin Newsom tweeted, I was just informed Trump is deploying another 2,000 guard trips to LA. The first 2,000 given no food or water. Only approximately 300 are deployed. The rest are sitting unused in federal buildings without orders. This isn't about public safety, it's about stroking a dangerous president's ego. This is reckless, pointless and disrespectful to our troops. The Latin phrase posse comitatus means power of the county. Counties were among the original law enforcement jurisdictions in what is now the United States, going all the way back to colonial times. And federal law makes it illegal to use the American military for regular law enforcement, which should be the power exclusively reserved originally to counties, local law enforcement. Federal law says whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the army, the Navy, the Marine Corps, the Air Force, or the Space Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both. And so there is a reasonable interpretation of that law tonight suggesting that if the Supreme Court of the United States had not invented their own notion of presidential immunity from criminal prosecution, Donald Trump could eventually have been charged in violation of what is commonly referred to as the posse comitatus law and be facing eventually a two year prison term. That's how wrong the authors of American law regarded this kind of abuse of authority. Before the Trump era, it all started in a raid in downtown Los Angeles, in an area known as the fashion district, where garment workers have been making clothes for as long as we've all been alive. It's not where the fashionable stores are, it's where the workers are. Just like the garment workers in New York City who've been making clothes for as Long as we've all been alive, clothes we've all worn. Ambiance Apparel has a website where everything they sell will look very familiar to you. That's the business that was raided. Women's and girls closets are filled with the kind of inexpensive, sensible clothes that Ambiance Apparel sells, makes and sells and imports. Immigration and Custom Enforcement agents rounded up 46 workers at ambience Apparel in a mission that they claimed was about arresting gang members and major criminals. Gang members don't make clothes for a living. Gang members don't spend their days at sewing machines in factories. Hardworking people do that. Hard working people who believe in the American dream. Hardworking people who someday hope to attend their children and grandchildren's college graduations. Hardworking people who want their children to have the chances that they never had. That's who has always filled the workbenches in our garment factories in this country. Donald Trump got 46 of them and not one of them has been charged with a crime. Not one. They didn't interrupt a drug deal in progress. They didn't interrupt a gang meeting in progress. They didn't interrupt a gang plotting a major crime. They interrupted sewing. Sewing your clothes. Sewing the clothes worn by the families of those ICE agents. The company issued a statement saying Ambiance complies with the law when it hired employees and it has always only hired people it believes have the legal right to work in the United States. We have reached out to the government to try to learn more about this raid, but have not yet learned anything more about it. Ambiance will continue to both follow the law and support its employees, many of whom have been with us for decades. Decades. Then came Donald Trump. Trump officials have claimed that they broke up a money laundering ring with that raid. That has to do with money laundering.

[Jason Furman]

Tax evasion and customers fraud, where a company undeclared, under declared over $80 million.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

In goods fail to pay $17 million in fees. That was on Morning Joe this morning. And as of tonight, no one has been charged with money laundering. No one has been charged with tax evasion. No one has been charged with customs fraud. But fathers have been taken away from their families. Mothers have been taken away from their families. And that is what the protest is about. That so called border czar who was talking about tax evasion just then on Morning Joe has zero jurisdiction over tax evasion. And Donald Trump and Republicans in Congress have done everything they possibly can to reduce and destroy the Internal Revenue Service's ability to police tax evasion. And so when they tell you that an immigration raid was about tax evasion. They are insulting you. That is the way those protesters feel. They feel insulted because those protesters know what this is about. And all of Los Angeles knows what this is about. And we have seen massive numbers of people in the past turn out for public protests in Los Angeles. But those garment workers in detention tonight have actually turned out one of Los Angeles smallest televised protesters. It was an easily manageable protest by the lapd, the third largest police department in the country. Yes, protesters managed to close down a freeway in downtown Los Angeles all the way on a Sunday, which has happened before in downtown Los Angeles. Protests where it doesn't take a massive crowd to close down that particular freeway on a Sunday. And the Marines have never been called in to deal with a traffic jam in Los Angeles until now. The California National Guard has never been called in to deal with a traffic jam in Los Angeles until now. The California National Guard is sleeping on floors tonight in Los Angeles because Donald Trump needed a distraction. Distraction more than he has ever needed one in his second term of the presidency. He needed a distraction from Elon Musk saying that Donald Trump is in the Epstein files, a tweet that Elon Musk has now deleted. As Elon Musk seems to have realized just how much of his wealth is dependent on you, the taxpayers of the United States, the government of the United States. The 9,000 LAPD officers did not need military backup to arrest. A total total so far over the last days. A total of 56 protesters arrested. That's right, 56. The state police force, the California Highway Patrol, made 17 of those 56 arrests. That was more backup than the LAPD needed for such a small crowd and such a small number of people doing anything that the police could possibly interpret as worthy of arrest. And the LAPD was not being especially nice to those protesters. If you watch the video of the most confrontational moments, the LAPD was very, very quick to push people around, push them to the ground and make arrests with very, very little provocation. And the total is now 56. 56. NBC News is reporting that after Elon Musk exploded in Twitter rage against Donald Trump, the former richest person in Bill Gates saw an opening and met with Secretary of State Marco Rubio to try to restore the funding that Elon Musk ripped away from the United States Agency for International Development that provides famine relief to starving children and starving people of all ages and life saving medication to the poorest people in the world. And Marco Rubio said no. Marco Rubio is obviously running for the next Republican presidential nomination has decided that cruelty is the political selling point to the Trump voters who Marco Rubio wants to appeal to so desperately. And so Marco Rubio cannot get caught supporting something that he used to support in December, right up until Donald Trump was president, which was feeding starving children with the surplus food that America produces every year and cannot eat and cannot sell and saving lives with medical supplies that cost this country next to nothing. The new Marco Rubio is the cruel Marco Rubio trying to work in the image and likeness of his now worshiped boss, Donald Trump, who Marco Rubio used to call a con man and a fraud. And so Donald Trump has troops moving in California, and the news media will keep its cameras on them, but there will be no cameras on the starving babies in Sudan, the starving mothers. Bill Gates called what Elon Musk did the world's richest man killing the world's poorest children. And now that the Secretary of State of the United States has taken over Elon Musk's cruelty mission in killing the poorest people in the world, the cameras are in downtown Los Angeles, exactly where Donald Trump wants them. 56 arrests in downtown Los Angeles is not news. 56 arrests. An estimated 300,000 people dying at the same time because of Donald Trump and Elon Musk. But the cameras are on the protesters as Donald Trump continues to stumble on stairs and stumble all over the Constitution. And we can Never forget the 187 minutes when Donald Trump did absolutely nothing, when a federal building was under attack by a village violent mob who were trying to kill police officers on their way to trying to kill the Vice President of the United States.

[Mark Hertling]

For hours, he would not issue a public statement instructing his supporters to disperse and leave the Capitol, despite urgent pleas from his White House staff and dozens of others to do so. Members of his family, his White House lawyers, virtually all those around him knew that this simple act was critical. For hours, he would not do it. During this time, law enforcement agents were attacked and seriously injured. The Capitol was invaded. The electoral count was halted, and the lives of those in the Capitol were put at risk. In addition to being unlawful, as described in our report, this was an utter moral failure and a clear dereliction of duty.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We'll be right back.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

No progress was reported today in Trump officials meeting with Chinese government officials in London, where the world was hoping for a truce in Donald Trump's trade war. A senior economist at Economist Intelligence Unit told cnbc, quote, the prohibitive tariffs were only lifted in mid May. The damage was already done. Chinese exports of Rare Earth Elements, for example, dropped 5.7% from a year ago. Rare earth elements are necessary components in electric vehicles and other products produced in the United states. China mines 70% of the world's rare earth elements and is responsible for 90% of the world's chemical process. Most Americans disapprove of the Trump tariffs that have reached restricted the flow of rare earth elements and other products. 59% oppose Trump tariffs with 41% in favor of them. 77% believe Trump tariffs increase prices in the short term and 50% say Trump tariffs increase prices in the long term. 75% believe Trump tariffs are trying to help the wealthy. When asked about Trump's budget bill, the Republican budget bill, 60% say it will help the wealthy, 31% say it will help middle class, 26% say the bill will help the poor, 47% believe it will hurt the middle class and 54% believe it will hurt the poor. With polling like that on Donald Trump's economic policies, Donald Trump desperately needs news coverage to be focused on protests in Los Angeles. Joining us now is Jason Furman, former chair of the Council of Economic Advisers for President Obama. He's professor of economic policy at Harvard University. Professor, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I wanted to catch up with you on where we are with the Trump tariffs in this economy and how the Trump budget bill interacts with these tariffs and what the net effect of it all is in a Trump economy and for voters and consumers out there.

[Jason Furman]

Yeah, well, one thing we're discovering as the treasury secretary and his team are over in London is that China has a lot of moves, too. It's not like we can just push everyone in the world around and get them to do what they want. China is withholding rare earths from us. And we're now in a place where we might concede some of the things that Biden did for national security to deny microchips to China just to get us back the rare earths to where we were so we might actually lose ground relative to where Trump started this trade war.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And as we go forward, it's very hard to say where it's going to come out. But, but everybody on the other side of a discussion table, I won't even call it a negotiating table because I'm not sure what there is to negotiate on this trade thing. They aren't real trade deals. But every country on the other side of the table from the American officials knows that all of these tariffs are being challenged in court and so far, successfully challenged in court.

[Jason Furman]

Yeah, that's right. Now, some of the China tariffs are on more legitimate legal standing. There really are national security issues involved with trade with China. The problem is that there's an asymmetry. China sells to countries all around the world. The United States is an important buyer, but we're not the only buyer. But for many of the things that we absolutely need for our industry, as you said, for electric vehicles, those rare earths, we can basically only get them from China. And that gives China just a really big piece of leverage. And they didn't seem to have taken that into account when they put together their strategy.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

But isn't there kind of a general leverage on the part of every country out there watching this case, especially as it works its way through the courts?

[Jason Furman]

Yeah. Oh, for countries around the world, absolutely. It helps them, but it also helps save us from ourselves. I mean, a lot of what we're doing here hurts us more than they hurt anyone else. And the problem is when you try to wage a trade war on every country in the world simultaneously, it's just you're hurting yourself. We should have focused on China from the beginning, and we should have gotten our allies together with us and us plus, our allies could accomplish something with China that we cannot when we're trying to do something to everywhere in the world simultaneously.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Harvard Economics Professor Jason Furman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Jason Furman]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. And coming up, President Zelensky answers Donald Trump's foolish description of President Zelensky and Vladimir Putin as two kids fighting in a playground. President Zelensky said Vladimir Putin is a maniac in the playground trying to kill and killing children. Timothy Snyder joins us next.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We've never experienced a moment like this in our country, and it leaves us all with a choice. Are we going to speak out or are we going to be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents. I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin and if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies. You don't need to be hopeless. We have our voices and I will continue using mine.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We have breaking news from Ukraine. The BBC reports Russia has launched a massive drone attack on the capital Kyiv. Major Vitaly Kirchenko has said, while a maternity ward in Odessa has also been targeted. The Odessa drone attack hit medical facilities and homes, killing a 59 year old man and injuring four, Governor Oleg Kiber said, according to Jean France Press in the capital. Emergency services were called to four districts a couple of hours after midnight on Tuesday, Lushchenko said. The On Telegram messaging app, Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky has a response now to Donald Trump's horrifically ignorant description of what he sees when he looks at Vladimir Putin's war against Ukraine. Sometimes you see two young children fighting like crazy. They hate each other and they're fighting in a park and you try and pull them apart. They don't want to be pulled. Sometimes you're better off letting them fight for a while and then pulling them apart. To which Ukraine's President Zelensky said, this is an adult. Putin is definitely not a child. He knows exactly what he's doing. This is more like an adult maniac who walks into a playground where children are sitting, comes in with a gun and just starts taking people. He abducted children. That's a fact. He kills these children. He has killed them. That's a fact. He left children without parents. That's what this is like. And in my opinion, you can't just say let's pull them apart. No one deals with maniacs like that. That's not how real life works. This is a maniac and a child on a playground. We'll be right back. We have breaking news from Ukraine. Russia has launched a massive drone attack tonight on Ukraine's capital city of Kiev. Joining us now is retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, former commander of the U.S. army in Europe. And General Hertling, I want to get your reaction to what we're seeing in Vladimir Putin's new attacks over the weekend. He said it could have been the most massive attack yet of the entire war that he's waging there. But also President Zelensky's corrective to Donald Trump's description of this being two kids fighting in a playground. General, I'm not sure we. General, can you hear me?

[General Hertling]

I can.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Okay, great. I want to get your reaction to this new escalation by Russia and of course, President Zelensky's description of what's really happening. It's not two kids fighting on a playground.

[General Hertling]

Right.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Can we, can we, do we have the general's audio?

[General Hertling]

Lawrence, I heard the clip earlier, what Zelinsky said, so I can comment on that. It was perfect. I think it reinforces what exactly is happening. You have a bully entering a playground with a loaded weapon and threatening kids. It is an apt description of what Russia has been doing for the last three years in terms of committing repetitive war crimes against the Ukrainian people and hitting targets that are Ukrainian infrastructure.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Tactically, what do you see happening there tonight?

[General Hertling]

Well, over the last few days, Russia has been attempting to strike multiple targets. In fact, my report was yesterday, they tried to strike over 400 targets of which Ukraine was able to stop about 470 of the attacks with, with air defense equipment. But that's going to be continuing in the same manner that Russia has used to try and influence and negatively affect the Ukrainian people. At the same time, reports that I'm receiving is showing that Ukrainian intelligence is getting much, much better and they're significantly hitting Russia military targets to the degree that I think it's confounding Russia, how they're getting, first of all the intelligence, but also how they're hitting those targets deep inside of Russia. So again, it goes into a slugfest where you have Ukraine hitting military targets and you have Russia continuing to commit war crimes, violations of the Geneva Protocols and the international law of war by hitting infrastructure and civilian targets. But I think you're going to see Ukraine, as I've said many times before, continue to push this inflection point where they're going to continue to hit targets that are going to be effective against the Russian Federation and against Mr. Putin's war.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[General Hertling]

Pleasure. Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling gets tonight's last word. Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Co host of the Bloomberg Odd Lots podcast, Joe Weisenthal. There's the story of the real economy and then there's the story of the financial markets. But I also think there is this.

[Jason Furman]

Sort of distinct and maybe you could.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Call political, maybe you could call it geopolitical. I'm not sure.

[Jason Furman]

So there's other story which is just.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

About Trump the character as he tries to negotiate in the world and establish himself right as the master negotiator. Which he seems to see himself as a Deals person. That's this week on why is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening? We're listening right now. And follow.