← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Lawrence: As Trump supporters turn on him over the Epstein files, Trump calls them ‘stupid’
00:44:21
Tonight on The Last Word: Democrats call for a Congressional hearing on the Epstein files. Also, Donald Trump denies he’s planning to fire Fed Chair Jerome Powell. And Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro endorses Janelle Stelson for Congress. Rep. Jamie Raskin, Paul Krugman, and Janelle Stelson join Lawrence O’Donnell.
Loading summary
Transcript86 lines
- [00:00]
Nicole Wallace
Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [00:31]
Lawrence O'Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence o' Donnell starts right now. Hey, Lawrence.
- [00:34]
Jen Psaki
Hey, Jen. You were a former communications professional in the political world. What do you call it when a politician who's trying to get away from a scandal keeps talking about the scandal?
- [00:52]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Evasion, self implosion. I mean, it is a 101 what not to do. I know. Chris and I were talking about this, Lawrence. We might still be talking about it because the right wing and the manosphere is running away from Trump. But he keeps talking about it. So we're gonna keep talking about it because it is news and there's more things that keep coming out about it.
- [01:15]
Donald Trump
So here we are.
- [01:16]
Jen Psaki
And we know that he doesn't want us to talk about it, which is always a good guideline for what we should be talking about. But for me, what's so fascinating about it is we've been kind of staring at this Trump political phenomenon, wondering what could break it apart. Could anything break it apart? And in politics, you break it apart if you just reduce it by 5%. That's all it takes. That's the same thing as zero. Cause if it drops 5% support, it can't possibly win anything. And he is right now in a real separation anxiety situation with some of his most fervent previous supporters. We've always seen them come back in the fold. But some of these people, who knows? Who knows? I was going to say, you know, might not come back. All I can say is they're not there tonight and we'll see what happens tomorrow.
- [02:13]
Lawrence O'Donnell
That's all we can say. They're personally offended. I'll just end with saying, lawrence, the best way to end up on my show or your show is for Trump to say, don't talk about it. That's like makes it at the top of the list.
- [02:24]
Jen Psaki
It absolutely works. There you go.
- [02:25]
Lawrence O'Donnell
So thank you.
- [02:26]
Jen Psaki
Thank you, Jen.
- [02:27]
Chris Hayes
Thank you.
- [02:27]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Thanks, Lawrence.
- [02:29]
Jen Psaki
Tonight on this program, for the first time, you are going to hear the words Trump and stupid in the same sentence, but not in the order you might expect, not in the way you have heard those two words used. On this program many times before, because today is the day when Donald Trump finally said something that now that he's actually said, it kind of seems inevitable. It is an historic turn for Donald Trump. It is a brand new use of the word stupid by Donald Trump, and it is the most important Trump usage of the word stupid ever. Because today, for the first time, Donald Trump called Republicans stupid. And he means millions of them. That was his word for Republicans who have been religiously devoted to him, Republicans who think of him as chosen by God. Donald Trump turned on those Republicans today and called them stupid and said the thing that no smart politician has ever said before, ever. Donald Trump said, I don't want their support anymore. I have often said on this program and elsewhere that no one insults the intelligence of Trump voters more than Donald Trump. No one thinks less of the intellectual capacity of Trump voters than Donald Trump. And he has always proved that in the way he pathologically lies directly to them about things that they know are not true. Donald Trump has always thought that he can do that to his supporters. Supporters because he believes that they are not, in Donald Trump's mind, the kind of sharp people that he was trying to deal with in New York in his business career. Now, I have never once been able to predict what could separate the most fervent Trump supporters from Donald Trump. What could possibly get Donald Trump to publicly call them stupid and say, I don't want their support anymore. They never seemed to mind being lied to about tariffs. Trump supporters never seemed bothered by the nasty intellectual insults he used to hurl at them at his campaign rallies and his speeches when he told them that other countries would pay the Trump tariffs that they were going to have to pay. They never seemed excited about the Trump tariff passages in those speeches, but they were never bothered by Trump's public insults of them based on Trump's belief, belief that not one of his voters knows what a tariff is. That insult didn't bother Trump voters. Apparently no political opponent of Donald Trump has been able to do anything that could separate Donald Trump from Republicans. Get Donald Trump to call Republicans stupid and say, I don't want their support anymore. The only person who could do that is the person who said he was Donald Trump's closest friend for 10 years and who killed himself in prison while awaiting trial on federal charges of sex trafficking. Jeffrey Epstein, the person standing beside Donald Trump in that blue shirt in that video. Right now, Jeffrey Epstein is the name Donald Trump never wants to hear. But Donald Trump's problem is the Jeffrey Epstein scandal that now Surrounds Donald Trump and the Trump administration is very easily understood by reporters and the public and Trump voters and people are paying attention to the name Donald Trump doesn't want them to ever hear. A new poll shows that 62% of registered voters are closely following the news about the Epstein files. 63% disapprove of Donald Trump's handling of the Epstein files, with 17%, only 17% approving of Donald Trump, saying, there's nothing to see here. No one causes more problems for Donald Trump than Donald Trump. And so Donald Trump's first solution to his Epstein problem was to try to change the subject with new tariff announcements every day or utter absurdities that are very simple and easy to understand. That Donald Trump would say if he believed that Republicans attention could be diverted because as Donald Trump said today, they are stupid. That's his belief. And on the belief that they are stupid, last week Donald Trump went back to a long held target of his Rosie o', Donnell, saying in a social media post, I am giving serious consideration to taking away her citizenship. There is no way Donald Trump could take away the citizenship of natural born citizen Rosie o'. Donnell. Donald Trump knows that. But that was Donald Trump's idea of the moment of how to change the subject from Jeffrey Epstein. It obviously failed spectacularly. But it did provoke a video response from Rosie o' Donnell yesterday from her new residence in Ireland in which she said, quote, I'm safe here in Ireland. I'm out of the reach of the Tangerine Mussolini. And I gotta say, as nicknames for Donald Trump go, Tangerine Mussolini is a possible winner. And it certainly gave Rosie o' Donnell the win. In her latest exchange with Donald Trump. It will be interesting to see what nicknames the Republicans who Donald Trump called stupid today will come up with to compete with Tangerine Mussolini. Donald Trump failed to distract attention from Donald Trump and his Attorney General's refusal to release the federal investigative files in the Jeffrey Epstein case, or any files in that case, the files that were on the desk of the Attorney General just days ago, according to the Attorney General's public comments. And this morning the pressure got to Donald Trump and so he did the worst thing he could possibly do in the middle of a scandal that he was hoping would disappear. He wrote a long social media post about the scandal about the Epstein files. Donald Trump gave the story much more fuel today and he kept doing it all day, which is exactly the opposite of what a smart person would do in Donald Trump's position. And once again, Donald Trump distinguished himself as the vulgarian that he is in the presidency by using profanity in his written public posting and for some reason putting the profane word in quotation marks in that weird way Donald Trump randomly and incorrectly uses quotation marks. And I mention that because if any other president had ever used that word in writing, in public or verbally in public, the news media would rightfully explode over the use of that word and the collapse of presidential propriety. But this is the Trump era and every standard of decency and accountability has been lowered for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump alone. Donald Trump, in his long post this morning, blamed the scandal about the Epstein file files, of course, on the Democrats saying, quote, their new scam is what we will forever call the Jeffrey Epstein hoax. And my past supporters have brought into this bullcrap. I'll call it hook, line and sinker. They haven't learned their lesson and probably never will. Even after being conned by the lunatic. Yes, they have been conned by the lunatic for many years now, but Donald Trump wasn't actually referring to himself when he said that. And it was just my artful edit that let it sound that way for a moment. What he actually said was even after being conned by the lunatic left, Donald Trump ended that social media rant against Republicans saying all these people want to talk about with strong prodding by the fake news and the success starved Dems is the Jeffrey Epstein hoax. Let these weaklings continue forward and do the Democrats work. Don't even think about talking of our incredible and unprecedented success because I don't want their support anymore. Weaklings. Donald Trump is calling Republicans stupid weaklings and as of today, he doesn't have the support of the people he calls stupid and weaklings. But it will take some time to know if Trump's loss of their support is permanent. Calling them stupid and weaklings probably won't help Donald Trump. Mr. President, I know you want to move past all this intrigue over the.
- [11:51]
Donald Trump
Epstein files, but I do want to ask you to clarify something you said this morning.
- [11:55]
Jen Psaki
You said this was all a hoax.
- [11:56]
Donald Trump
Has your Attorney General told you this was a hoax?
- [11:59]
Chris Hayes
What evidence have you seen that's not the Attorney General. No, I know it's a hoax. It's started by Democrats. It's been run by the Democrats for four years. You had Christopher Wray and these characters and Comey before him and it's a bad group. It's started actually. Look at the Steele dossier that turned out to be a total hoax. The 51 agents, the intelligence so called intelligence agents, it was a hoax. It's all been a big hoax. It's perpetrated by the Democrats and some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net.
- [12:32]
Jen Psaki
And there you have Donald Trump's description of stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans. And he kept going.
- [12:44]
Chris Hayes
Instead, they want to talk about the Epstein hooks. And the sad part is it's people that are really doing the Democrats work. They're stupid people.
- [12:56]
Jen Psaki
They're stupid people. He's talking about Republicans and no, the sad part is not that we're talking about the Epstein files. The sad part was what happened to those little girls when Donald Trump's friend Jeffrey Epstein got his hands on them. Michael Flynn served 24 days as Donald Trump's first national security adviser before being fired by Donald Trump and then convicted of federal crimes for which Donald Trump, of course, pardoned him. Today, Michael Flynn wrote this on social media, addressed directly to Donald Trump. I hesitated to write this. However, with the utmost respect and deference to you, for all you've withstood. Few know it better than me what the deep state can do when they want to turn on a person. The Epstein affair is not about who killed him or if he committed suicide. Personally, I'm glad this known pedophile is dead, but neither is this a hoax. This issue goes beyond all that. There are millions of Americans who've overwhelmingly voted for you to be our president, and we want you to be massively successful. No one more than me. All we want at this stage is for a modicum of trust to be re established between our federal government and the people it is designed to serve. That's all. Period, exclamation point. An element that is of great importance surrounding this Epstein affair is the fact that this man was a known pedophile, had a list of clients who represented the upper crust of society and likely did untoward things to children on his island, in his homes, in New York City and New Mexico and maybe elsewhere, he was convicted of it. Regardless of what class of society abuses and commits crimes against children, it is never acceptable. This is where this argument went off the rails. It is not about Epstein or the left. It is about committing crimes against children. If there are leaks inside of our country that have committed crimes against children, shame on them. They must be held accountable. A sampling of Trump supporting media today was not supportive of Donald Trump on the Epstein files. Alex Jones spoke directly and hysterically to Donald Trump on his program. You have put the gun in your mouth and ours collectively. Stop it. Stop it. Stop. Stop. Stop. For God's sakes. Don't attack your constituents when they have morals and aren't robots. Media Matters sampled callers to Trump supporting shows today.
- [16:01]
Paul Krugman
What about justice for these young ladies who were trafficking? What about their justice?
- [16:07]
Jen Psaki
Don't they deserve justice? I think, Pam, you know, over promised, under delivered. Jeffrey Epstein killed himself before trial, but his co defendant and co conspirator, Ghislaine Maxwell, went to trial in 2021. She did not testify. The prosecution called 24 witnesses over 10 days of testimony, including four of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell's victims at the time, the Associated Press reported, quote, the first three women testified as Jane, Kate and Carolyn. First names are pseudonyms intended to protect their privacy. The last was Annie Farmer, who took the witness stand using her real name. Jane said she was 14 when she met Maxwell and Epstein at a music camp where Epstein was a benefactor. Maxwell showered her with attention in a way that left her vulnerable. The moment she was first instructed to follow Epstein into his pool house in his Palm Beach, Florida estate in 1994, she said when she began. When he began to sexually abuse her, I was frozen in fear, she said. I'd never seen a penis before. Prosecutors wanted evidence that Maxwell was a direct participant. Jane gave it to them by claiming Maxwell and Epstein fondled her together. When a prosecutor asked her why, as the defense pointed out, she didn't initially reveal everything about her experiences with Epstein. In initial interviews with law enforcement, she said, fighting back tears, because it was too difficult, too difficult emotionally, too difficult on every level. 14 years old. That's what Donald Trump and his attorney General are hiding. 14 years old. The investigative files on a man who Donald Trump said He knew for 15 years, a man who said he was Donald Trump's closest friend for 10 years and who raped that child when she was 14 years old. They are protecting that man in the grave. And who knows who, who else? Ghislaine Maxwell's attorneys know that their only hope of ever getting her out of prison will probably be a Trump pardon. On the final day of the Trump presidency. And today, they released a statement praising Donald Trump. One of Ghislaine Maxwell's lawyers said this about Donald Trump. He's the ultimate dealmaker. And I'm sure he'd agree that when the United States gives its word, it should keep it. With all the talk about who's being prosecuted and who isn't, it's especially unfair that Ghislaine Maxwell remains in prison. And to deepen the mysteries that live in and around the Epstein files, new reporting indicates that there was a gap of three full minutes on the video recording of the door of Jeffrey Epstein's jail cell on the night that Jeffrey Epstein killed himself. The one minute gap had been previously reported in that video, but new analysis by Wired indicates the actual gap is a full three minutes. That's one of many elements of the case that indicate that there remains much to investigate in this case. It's a case that never went to trial. And so the contents of those investigative files on Jeffrey Epstein were never fully revealed in a courtroom as they were destined to be if he did not die in his jail cell. And Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee, which has jurisdiction over the Justice Department and the Attorney General, want to conduct that investigation of this case. Here is the top Democrat on that committee, Congressman Jamie Raskin. In yesterday's Judiciary Committee hearing, there's something.
- [20:33]
Jamie Raskin
That everybody here, at least I used to think agreed with, which is, let's release the Epstein files. That guy is a child sex offender who's convicted of it and then took his life before the larger trial could take place. His associate, Ms. Maxwell, is in jail for 20 years. The whole country is saying, release the files. That's what Donald Trump said. That's what J.D. vance said. That's what the Attorney General said. That's what the FBI director said. And now suddenly they want to sweep the whole thing under the rug. Why don't we have a real hearing with real government officials talking about the government and talking about a real investigation with the real problem, which is the nationwide crisis in the sexual abuse of children and human trafficking?
- [21:18]
Janelle Stelson
Why don't we do that? I yield Back to you, Mr. Chairman.
- [21:22]
Jen Psaki
Joining us now is Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland. He's the top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Congressman Raskin, what is at stake now in the House of Representatives in the pursuit of truth in this case, in the pursuit of who is being protected and how by Donald Trump and the Attorney General's choices in this case?
- [21:47]
Janelle Stelson
Well, there's a stench of corruption and predation and exploitation that hangs over this whole matter, as you were saying. And look, this started a long time ago. If you remember Trump, Secretary of Labor Alex Acosta, he was actually the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Florida when this first came up. And the Department of Justice had prepared a 60 count federal prosecution against Epstein for all of the charges of statutory rape, rape, solicitation, running this conspiracy, and on and on. Acosta reduced that to a plea bargain for one state count of solicitation. He let him go on 60 counts. This is a guy who should have obviously spent the rest of life in prison for what he had done. They also excused four people who were Epstein's aides de camp as part of that plea bargain agreement. And he didn't even have to go to jail during the daytime. He had to spend the night in a special room they had set up for him in the Southern District of Florida. I think it was in Palm Beach. So there's been a double standard from the very beginning. This is about corruption. This is about the wealthy and the powerful being able to, to manipulate the justice system to get away with their crimes. And so I guess when it was convenient for Donald Trump and for Pam Bondi to raise it and to spread, you know, even greater conspiracy theories about the whole thing, they did it then the moment they're in office, and they've got the opportunity to commit the simple act of turning over the files to the public. That is, after Epstein is dead, after Maxwell is already in federal prison for 20 years, and after a third Confederate also took his own life. So all those cases are over. Now they're trying to throw up every possible other distraction, like, let's get a special prosecutor. For what? Epstein is gone. What other crimes are they talking about? Just release the files to the public. That's what Trump himself has been demanding. And J.D. vance and everybody else in Trump world, that's what they were asking for. That's why millions of people are upset. Trump says it's like a Democratic plot. No, this has been led by maga. It's the MAGA people are saying it and we're agreeing with them. Let's clear the air. Let's get the truth and the facts out there and finally put an end to this constant corruption and cover up.
- [24:28]
Jen Psaki
Yeah, I listened to many more callers to those right wing talk shows today, and they're so clear on this and they sound perfectly logical for once. Knowing that they've been lied to and knowing that they've been lied to by Trump World and that they've done a 180 on this, that they understand it perfectly. And what I'm wondering about on the larger frame of this is if they can unlock the mechanics of one very simple pattern of Trump lying on the Epstein files, what happens when they start applying that same logic to tariffs and other issues, Medicaid cuts, things that they have been lied to about about. Once that formula becomes available to the thinking of these kinds of voters, what's the limit?
- [25:28]
Janelle Stelson
I'm totally with You. The same thought has been running through my mind. I mean, Trump did not campaign on throwing 14 million Americans off of their Medicaid health coverage. And again, that's going to hit a lot of Trump's people as well as a lot of Democrats and independents. But the point is it's hitting Americans. He didn't campaign on that. He did campaign on releasing these files. He should at least keep that promise. But in a larger sense, we've got to look at what this administration has done with respect to human trafficking and the protection of children. They dismantled 69 different programs defunding them through the Department of Labor that were meant to, to combat human trafficking and child labor around the world. They have dismantled all kinds of programs at the Department of Justice, at HHS and other agencies that were designed to protect people against human trafficking. So we're talking about child sex abuse scandals, not just the Jeffrey Epstein one, but the kind that we've seen at Michigan State, at Ohio State, in the Boy Scouts, in all these churches. All of these things are taking place now and they're making it much easier for the predators to get away with it. And so, you know, some people would say, well, I'm very upset because I love Donald Trump. Why is he doing this? It's out of character. Others would say, hey, he's an adjudicated sexual predator himself out of New York. What else would you expect to happen? But regardless, their policies are, are hurting our people and we've got to turn it around. And let's start by having some truth and clearing the air over this whole Epstein affair as quickly as possible.
- [27:09]
Jen Psaki
Congressman Jamie Raskin, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
- [27:14]
Janelle Stelson
You bet.
- [27:14]
Jen Psaki
Thank you. And coming up, tonight's episode of what if Biden did that? Will we be joined by Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman? That's next.
- [27:31]
Nicole Wallace
As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda, follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.
- [27:48]
Lawrence O'Donnell
The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.
- [27:53]
Nicole Wallace
Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at msnbc.com project47. Start your day with the MSNBC daily newsletter. Sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up now@msnbc.com.
- [28:19]
Jen Psaki
Time for tonight's episode of what if Biden did that?
- [28:25]
Chris Hayes
He's a terrible He's a terrible Fed chair. I was surprised he was appointed. I was surprised, frankly, that Biden put him in and extended him. But they did.
- [28:39]
Jen Psaki
As we have come to expect, there was no outcry from the White House press corps about Donald Trump saying that Joe Biden appointed someone who Donald Trump himself appointed. What Donald Trump got right in that statement was that Joe Biden extended the appointment of Jerome Powell as chairman of the Federal Reserve. It was a four year appointment made by Donald Trump which expired during the Biden presidency. And Joe Biden extended that appointment for another four years. And there's Donald Trump today saying, I was surprised he was appointed. I was surprised, frankly, that Biden put him in and extended him. But he did. There would be screaming headlines in the New York Times and the Washington Post and other publications around the country tonight if Joe Biden had ever said anything like that. Because Joe Biden was held to the standards of a normal person. And Donald Trump is not. And Donald Trump is the 79 year old, incoherent son of a father who suffered from Alzheimer's in his later years. And no White House reporter dared to point out to Donald Trump that he was wrong about who appointed Jerome Powell. No one told Donald Trump that he appointed Jerome Powell. No one asked Donald Trump if he was okay. No one asked Donald Trump if he knew what day it is. But they kept asking Donald Trump if he was going to fire Jerome Powell, even though the president does not have the legal power to fire the chair of the Federal Reserve. Donald Trump, who likes to try to humiliate people by accusing them of asking stupid questions whenever he can, missed his big chance today to say how stupid it was to ask if the president is going to fire someone the president cannot fire. And Donald Trump denied New York Times reporting which said President Trump showed off a draft of a letter firing the chair of the Federal Reserve, Jerome H. Powell, during a meeting with roughly a dozen House Republicans on Tuesday night, polling them as to whether he should do it and indicating that he likely would. According to two people briefed on the meeting today, Donald Trump was asked about that letter.
- [31:07]
Josh Shapiro
Are you completely ruling out the idea.
- [31:09]
Jen Psaki
Of firing Jerome Powell?
- [31:12]
Chris Hayes
I don't rule out anything, but I think it's highly unlikely unless he has to leave for fraud. But I think he's not doing a good job. He's got a very easy job to do. You know what he has to do? Lower interest rates.
- [31:26]
Donald Trump
Have you drafted a letter if you.
- [31:29]
Jen Psaki
Decide that you are going to fire him?
- [31:31]
Donald Trump
Have you drafted a letter?
- [31:32]
Chris Hayes
I haven't drafted a letter.
- [31:33]
Donald Trump
So you didn't show a letter to.
- [31:34]
Jen Psaki
Republican lawmakers last night?
- [31:36]
Janelle Stelson
No.
- [31:36]
Chris Hayes
I talked about the concept of fire him. I said, what do you think? Almost every one of them said, I should, but I'm more conservative than they are.
- [31:47]
Jen Psaki
Donald Trump has now earned the worst polling of his political career on economic issues. With 60% of Americans disapproving of Donald Trump's handling of the economy, 61% disapprove of his illegal, unconstitutional and economically illiterate tariffs. 58% say Donald Trump has not gone far enough to try to reduce the price of everyday goods. 61% disapprove of the Trump Republican budget bill. Only 29% think the Trump Republican budget bill will help the economy and only 16% think say their family will be better off because of the bill. Our next guest, Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman notes we'll presumably hear many attempts to explain the strategy behind all of this, but there is clearly isn't strategy, just the prejudices of an ignorant man and his enablers. Joining us now is Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman. He is distinguished professor at City University of New York's Graduate center and a former New York Times columnist who is now posting his work on Substack. Thank you very much for joining us tonight, Professor Krugman. First of all, what do you make of what's going on with Donald Trump's public discussion about the Fed chair?
- [33:10]
Paul Krugman
Well, I mean, yeah, he does not have the legal right, which I'm not sure in this world right now whether legality really matters. And they're trying to drum up a scandal to force Powell out over crazy, you know, construction budgets. But the really amazing thing is that Trump, you know, there's a reason we have Fed independence, which is to insulate it from political interference and above all, interference from politicians who have absolutely no idea what the Fed's job is and what it's supposed to be doing. And if you read about, you know, if you read Trump explaining why Powell should be fired and the interest rates should be cut, he seems to think that you cut interest rates as a reward for good behavior. That he says on the economy is doing great, therefore the Fed should cut interest rates. Of course, if the economy is doing great, then you don't need to cut interest rates. In fact, that's exactly when you have to worry about overheating and causing inflation. So Trump is exactly the kind of person that an independent central bank is supposed to protect us from.
- [34:11]
Jen Psaki
What would happen if Donald Trump got his way, if Jerome Powell's term were ending tomorrow, legally ending tomorrow, and Donald Trump's nominee could go in the next day, presumably under Donald Trump's orders in order to get the job in the first place, what would happen if in effect, Donald Trump were the functioning as the chair of Federal Reserve?
- [34:35]
Paul Krugman
Well, the chair doesn't have, you know, it's not a dictatorship. Inside the Fed, the decisions about interest rates are made by a committee. And at least initially, we would expect that whatever flunky Trump points would be outvoted by the other members. But pressure, who knows what would happen if we got what Trump wants? Well, we have some clear recent examples of that. The best one is Turkey, where the, as they, you know, inflation was starting to accelerate and President Erdogan decided that he knew monetary theory better than the central bankers did and forced them to keep interest rates low and didn't change his mind until inflation hit 80% percent at which point interest rates went up and they're still almost 50% now. So, you know, this could be a, this, this is one of the major possible policy disasters, you know, along with, with trade war and mass deportations to.
- [35:31]
Jen Psaki
The, the trade war and the resultant inflation that we've all been kind of waiting to see it turn up in a sharper way. How are you tracking inflation in reaction to the tariffs?
- [35:47]
Paul Krugman
Okay, it's just starting to show up in official numbers and I have to admit it's a slower move than before. But we've never before had tariffs which are on again, off again. Everything will change in 90 days. Now it's August 1st. Something is going to happen. So maybe it's not surprising that businesses are a little bit slow, slow to pass it through. But I think, you know, I'm looking a lot. There are various private surveys that give you a read on inflation independent of the official numbers and usually somewhat in advance of the official numbers. We may need to, you know, if, if Trump, Trump is not cooking the books yet. The, the inflation numbers so far are honest, although under, under resourced. But the, but a lot of us have been, you know, making sure that we know how to read from the private surveys because we might eventually really depend on them if we don't trust the government. And the private surveys are showing a lot of inflationary pressure, just actually not exactly private. But just today, the Fed's beige book, which is a survey where they just go out and talk to people, interesting concept there, shows a lot of inflation pressure out there. So this is coming, it's just to say to a certain extent inflation. We're in the position of the man who jumps off the 50 story building and as he passes the 25th floor it says I'm doing okay so far. Right. I mean we, the real, the real impact has yet to hit the One.
- [37:20]
Jen Psaki
Of the things you see in the polling numbers on the unpopularity of the Trump tariffs combined with the polling numbers saying Donald Trump is failing on controlling prices is as you say, as the Beige book seems to indicate a consumer level concern or sensation that the inflation is underway.
- [37:42]
Paul Krugman
Yeah, I mean people are somehow it is interesting because the, you know, the Bureau of Labor Statistics does its best and although they're you know, there are a lot of it now is kind of interpolated numbers because they don't have enough staff. But the, but still we, we're not really seeing it very much but we are starting to see clearly some things. Appliances are you know, really starting to, to show the effects of the tariffs. And I guess people, you know, one thing we've learned is pay attention to how people are feeling. It's in the end economics is about people and if people have the sense that things are not getting less affordable, we might want to ask, you know, what did, are they right? And I don't think, I don't, I don't think we've seen a lot of inflation from the terrorists yet, but people really do clearly see it on the.
- [38:34]
Jen Psaki
Way the before we go, do you have a worst case scenario of Trump appointee to the to be the next chair of the Federal Reserve assuming that appointee takes takes office next year? We've, we've seen the names bandied about Treasury Secretary and others already serving in the Trump administration. Is there, is there one you fear the most is that if that's a correct way of putting the question, I.
- [39:03]
Paul Krugman
Don'T think it matters. I think whoever he appoints will be just his, his flunky will just do what he, what he's told. It doesn't matter if they have some prior record of seeming plausible. Although if you actually look more closely even at the more plausible people I've written about that on the substack. You know, Kevin Warsh is really not, he's not operator, not, not an independent thinker and but no, as I've said, I mean it doesn't matter who he appoints. He could appoint the MyPillow guy as chair and he'd be probably no worse than the names that we're hearing about.
- [39:39]
Jen Psaki
Professor Paul Krugman, the MyPillow guy. That's going to be an interesting possibility. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
- [39:44]
Paul Krugman
Thanks a lot.
- [39:47]
Jen Psaki
1%. That's all it takes for the Democrats to win the House of Representatives in the next election and take legislative power away from from Donald Trump and the Republicans. Coming up, one of the candidates who can help them do that will join us.
- [40:05]
Nicole Wallace
MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week, Nicole speaks with legendary songwriter and music producer Jimmy Jam.
- [40:17]
Janelle Stelson
I treat it like a privilege to be able to do that, to be able to speak to people, to be.
- [40:20]
Josh Shapiro
Able to help raise money, help raise.
- [40:22]
Janelle Stelson
Awareness, but I get to do it from music.
- [40:24]
Nicole Wallace
The best people with Nicole Wallace listen now. For early access and free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [40:38]
Jen Psaki
If there is anything revealed in the Epstein files that could get Donald Trump impeached, Donald Trump could be impeached a third time if and only if the Democrats win the House of Representatives in next year's election. Donald Trump knows that, and so he will do anything to destroy the candidacy of our next guest, Janelle Stelson, who came within 1% of taking a House seat away from a Republican in the last election. And now she's back running against that same Republican who asked Donald Trump for a pardon at the end of the first Trump presidency, Pennsylvania Congressman Scott Perry. Donald Trump won Jenelle Stelson's district by approximately 5%, which was probably enough to lift Republican Scott Perry to a 1% victory margin in that district. But Donald Trump won't be on the ballot next time. And Donald Trump has inflicted higher prices on the people of Pennsylvania through his unpopular, illegal and unconstitutional tariffs. And Governor Shapiro of Pennsylvania is much more popular in that congressional district than Donald Trump. Governor Shapiro is making it very clear to Pennsylvania voters who is taking their Medicaid away and who is taking away their access to Penny. Pennsylvania's health care marketplace created by Obamacare.
- [42:08]
Josh Shapiro
First, about 500,000 Pennsylvanians would lose access to healthcare, 310,000 of them would lose Medicaid, and about 200,000 would lose access to Penny because of those changes. That's a huge impact.
- [42:27]
Jen Psaki
Democratic candidate for Congress Janelle Stelson picked up Governor Shapiro's endorsement tonight in Pennsylvania and will join us after this break.
- [42:40]
Josh Shapiro
Hey, it's Governor Josh Shapiro and I'm endorsing Janelle Stelson for Congress. Janelle is there for us. She's a decent, good, honorable person who respects the rule of law and respects you. She's going to fight for Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. She's going to defend a woman's right to choose and she's going to always look out for all of you. This community deserves a congresswoman who's on your side and Janelle Stelson is. So I'm proud to endorse you, Janelle, and I'm excited for you to represent this community as the next member of Congress.
- [43:15]
Donald Trump
Thank you.
- [43:16]
Jen Psaki
Joining us now is Janelle Stelson. She's a Democrat running for Congress in Pennsylvania's 10th district against Republican Scott Perry. And the breaking news of the night is that you just picked up the governor's endorsement. That was earlier this evening that that came out. That's very unusual at the primary stage. What, what, what do you, why do you believe the governor decided to intervene now in this race?
- [43:43]
Donald Trump
He's a good man and he understands how dangerous Scott Perry is in terms of being our congressman. And, you know, I'm all about that. I thank the governor very much. Just a slight correction, Lawrence. I have changed my name for tonight to Janellestelson.com it is not just Janelle.
- [43:58]
Jen Psaki
Janellestelson.com Janellestelson.com, i'll go with that. What's going to be the difference between this campaign and your last campaign where you came in 1% behind?
- [44:16]
Donald Trump
Well, the story of Scott Perry just keeps getting worse. I mean, you talk about the bill that just passed. He was the deciding vote. And that is going to, you know, kick millions of Americans off their health care, including 20,000 in the district he pretends to represent here. It's going to cut Social Security, slash food assistance and is going to kill more than a million jobs. And something Governor Shapiro has been talking about is the fact that it's going to threaten our hospitals, make the doctor shortages more extreme and hike our premiums, insurance premiums and utility bills. And, oh, yeah, is going to raise, you know, is going to be $3.3 trillion of new debt that's going to mortgage our children's futures. And, you know, Scott Perry did all of that.
- [45:03]
Jen Psaki
Janelle Stelson, congratulations on the big endorsement tonight and the start of your campaign. Please return and join us on the state of the race as the campaign proceeds.
- [45:14]
Donald Trump
Janellestelson.com Happy to be here. Thank you so much, Lawrence, for the opportunity. You're doing a wonderful job.
- [45:19]
Jen Psaki
Thank you. We'll be right back. You may have just heard our last guest, Janelle Stelson, at the end of that interview tell me that I was doing a good job, which is unusual for a guest to say, but.
- [45:37]
Paul Krugman
This.
- [45:37]
Jen Psaki
One carries a little more weight than that might otherwise because Janelle Stelson is the former local news anchor in the congressional district where she is now running for Congress. She was on WGAL in the Harrisburg Lancaster TV market in central Pennsylvania, Channel 8. And Janelle Stelson, who is now a candidate, is gonna be back on this program, not just because she said I was doing a good job.
- [46:07]
Paul Krugman
Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes.
- [46:08]
Jen Psaki
This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening?
- [46:10]
Paul Krugman
A special crossover episode with the hosts of the Strict Scrutiny podcast.
- [46:15]
Donald Trump
I think the Supreme Court massively misplayed this. End of term, my solution would be more trying to address the underlying structural issues that allow us to get to a point where a minority faction that is not committed to and antagonistic to the rule of law can get power. The bigger fundamental problem is that we have never done the work in this country of actually wrestling with our deep seated antipathy for a multiracial, multi faith, pluralistic democracy.
- [46:47]
Paul Krugman
That's this week on why Is this Happening?
- [46:49]
Jen Psaki
Search for why Is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now, and follow.