← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Lawrence: Biden says Israel-Hezbollah ceasefire is proof 'peace is possible'
00:42:13
Tonight on The Last Word: President Biden announces an Israel-Hezbollah ceasefire deal. Also, Biden’s infrastructure bill continues to spur investment. And a filmmaker documents the process of donating one of her kidneys to a stranger in a new film called, “Confessions of a Good Samaritan.” Amos Hochstein, Tom Friedman, Jeffrey Sonnenfeld, and Penny Lane join Lawrence O’Donnell.
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- [00:01]
Yara Shahidi
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- [00:32]
Lawrence O'Donnell
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- [00:58]
Alex Wagner
Now it is time for the Last word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence.
- [01:01]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Good evening, Alex. And I so much wanted to get one of the first words on your show tonight when you were talking about tariffs with Chris Hayes. I love that segment, everything about it. And here's, here's my thought, having listened to you all, because it's impossible, right? It will destroy the economy. The mass deportations will destroy the economy. So he won't do it. He'll get to February.
- [01:25]
Alex Wagner
That's a question, right?
- [01:26]
Amos Hochstein
Yeah.
- [01:26]
Lawrence O'Donnell
He'll get to February and say just me threatening the tariffs was enough and now Canada and Mexico are behaving. That's the only thing I can imagine.
- [01:35]
Alex Wagner
That'S his out is that it's just all bluster. It's just kind of strongman, fanboy smoke and mirrors.
- [01:41]
Amos Hochstein
I guess he's going to be given.
- [01:43]
Alex Wagner
That's the best outcome, I guess.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Yeah. I mean, he's going to be given the greatest economy and then he's going to ruin it and ruin Wall Street. We'll see. We will see.
- [01:52]
Alex Wagner
Listen, next time you like a conversation that Chris and I are having, feel free to just come to the glass doors. I often see you, you know, just, you're welcome.
- [01:59]
Lawrence O'Donnell
You know, it was like, it was like, it was like the old days when we used to begin this show with you and Chris. I was watching thinking exactly that I should run down there.
- [02:07]
Alex Wagner
I'll probably come visit you anytime.
- [02:08]
Lawrence O'Donnell
But you know, I noticed on the set there was no extra chair. Like if I'd run out there, it would have been really awkward.
- [02:13]
Alex Wagner
From now on, Lawrence, just in case.
- [02:16]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Okay.
- [02:16]
Alex Wagner
You get the feeling it's here for you.
- [02:19]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Okay. Thanks, Alex.
- [02:20]
Alex Wagner
Have a great show.
- [02:21]
Amos Hochstein
Thank you.
- [02:22]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Thanks. Well, in this morning's New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman, who will join our discussion tonight, wrote, this is a big deal. He was referring just to the possibility that President Biden's special envoy, Amos Hochstein, who will also join our discussion tonight, was on the verge of negotiating a ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah. Then at 3:38pm today, this happened.
- [03:04]
Joe Biden
Good afternoon. Today I have some good news to report from the Middle East. I just spoke with the Prime Minister of Israel and Lebanon. I'm pleased to announce that their governments have accepted the United States proposal to end the devastating conflict between Israel and Hezbollah. Under the deal reached Today, effective at 4:00am tomorrow local time, the fighting across the Lebanese Israeli border will end. Will end. This is designed to be a permanent cessation of hostilities.
- [03:40]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Earlier in the day in Lebanon, it did not seem that peace was at hand. The New York Times reports in the hours before Israeli ministers approved the deal, the Israeli military launched one of its heaviest barrages of airstrikes since the war began hitting the heart of Beirut, and Hezbollah dominated neighborhoods south of the city. Thomas Friedman writes that the deal means that, quote, Hezbollah and by extension Iran have decided to delink themselves from Hamas in Gaza and stop the firing from Lebanon for the first time since October 8, 2023, the day after Hamas invaded Israel. President Biden pointed out today that this has been the deadliest conflict between Israel and Hezbollah in decades. NBC News reports that approximately 1.2 million people in Lebanon and 60,000 people in northern Israel have been driven from their homes because of the attacks across the border.
- [04:47]
Joe Biden
This deal supports Lebanon's sovereignty, and so it heralds a new start for Lebanon, a country that I've seen most of over the years. A country with a rich history and culture. If fully implemented, this still can put Lebanon on a path toward a future that's worthy of a significant past. Just as the Lebanese people deserve a future of security and prosperity, so do the people of Gaza. They too deserve an end to the fighting and displacement. The people of Gaza have been through hell. Their word, their world's absolutely shattered. Far too many civilians in Gaza have suffered far too much. And Hamas has refused for months and months to negotiate a good faith ceasefire and a hostage deal. And so now Hamas has a choice to make. Their only way out is to release the hostages, including American citizens, which they hold. In the process, bring an end to the fighting, which would make possible a surge of humanitarian relief.
- [05:58]
Lawrence O'Donnell
President Biden acknowledged that there is much more work to do to bring peace to the region. But he said today's deal is proof that peace is possible.
- [06:10]
Joe Biden
Now Israel must be bold in turning tactical gains against Iran and its proxies into A coherent strategy that secures Israel's long term, its long term safety and advances a broader peace and prosperity in the region. Today's announcement is a critical step in advancing that vision. And so I applaud the crazy decision made by the leaders of Lebanon and Israel to end the violence. It reminds us that peace is possible. Say that again. Peace is possible. As long as that is the case, I will not for a single moment stop working to achieve it.
- [06:51]
Lawrence O'Donnell
The United States led the ceasefire negotiations. And the lead negotiator for President Biden in the negotiations is our first guest tonight, Amos Hochstein. He began working in Washington as a young staffer in the House of Representatives, then served in the Obama administration and now the Biden administration. If you're hearing his name for the first time tonight, you're not the only one. He's one of those people working in government who are not there for the attention. But he's much better known in the places where people's lives depend on how well he could do his job in achieving a ceasefire. People in Beirut with their lives at stake in the ceasefire negotiations know all about Amos Hochstein. And so when he showed up at a Starbucks in Beirut last week, people working there were so grateful that he was trying to stop the fighting that they refused to let him pay, despite his best efforts. Leading off our discussion tonight is White House senior advisor Amos Hochstein. He served as the lead US Negotiator in the ceasefire deal between Israel and Hezbollah. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. And how did it turn out at the Starbucks? Did they let you pay?
- [08:23]
Amos Hochstein
Thanks, Loris. No, they wouldn't let me pay. They kept saying, you're our guest and we appreciate what you're trying to do. We won't let you pay.
- [08:31]
Lawrence O'Donnell
As Tom Friedman says, this is a big deal. It's very obviously a big deal. Now that it has really happened, what would you say was the key to bringing it together in the end?
- [08:46]
Amos Hochstein
Look, I think, Lawrence, this has been a devastating conflict. 18 years of calm since the 2006 war, and here we are again. And really, this is a conflict, as the President said today, that was imposed on the Lebanese people. October 7th happened and Hamas attacked Israel and Hezbollah decided to join in on the. On the attack. A few hours later, on the early morning of October 8, not representing the Lebanese people who repeatedly through this year have expressed, we don't want this war. We didn't want it then, we don't want it now. So really it was about, how do you get to A point of telling the Israelis, look, you've gotten a lot of gains on the ground militarily, but you need, if you really want security, you got to leverage your gains on the battlefield to political gains, because your ultimate security is only through an agreement with Lebanon, not by imposing it. And the same thing for the Lebanese. At some point, you got to say, look, enough is enough, and we are willing to take the steps that are difficult, perhaps politically, in Lebanon. But to say we're going to assert control over our own country and we're going to care about our own people. And the style of negotiations that I tried to have here was to say to people, look, what do you. What do you really want? What is important to you? And for Israel, it's to return their people home with security. And for the Lebanese, it's to end this war and to rebuild the shattered lives. And if we can find a path that sort of threads the needle, I thought we could do it. And we were able to do it. But I will tell you, it was not easy. This was a very difficult, difficult negotiation, partly because the involvement of Iran and Hezbollah and other forces from the outside. But I'm glad we were able to do it. And I think we're, by doing it now, able to save a lot of lives that would have been injured and killed over the coming days, weeks and months.
- [10:42]
Lawrence O'Donnell
I think people who have studied these kinds of negotiations over many years and certainly throughout Israel's history, are not surprised that it took a year. But how would you explain to people who are relatively new to this subject what that year was about, why it took a year to get to this point on this negotiation?
- [11:02]
Amos Hochstein
So Lebanon is one of these. You know, I once said that I'm attracted. What I love about Lebanon to some degree is the tragedy of Lebanon. It's an amazing country with great people, but it got hijacked over decades by different invaders and other forces that took over the country, the Syrians, the Israelis, and now the Iranians for the last several years. And so Hezbollah joined this war and said, we're not going to stop shooting at Israel until Israel stops the war in Gaza. So it was tying the Lebanese people future to a conflict that had nothing to do with Lebanon. And so it had to break that linkage between Gaza and Lebanon to separate the two conflicts, to solve one, which is why it took this long. Eventually, Israel was able to prevail over Hezbollah and make advances on the. On the battlefield. But also the people of Lebanon wanted this to end. And I think Israel has no territorial the fact that Israel has no territorial claims to Lebanon, it has no interest in staying there long term and wants security. I think it took a year, but the last two months have really been the intense negotiations. And I think that's what got us over the, over the, over the line here.
- [12:20]
Lawrence O'Donnell
What are the lessons in this successful negotiation for the obvious similar negotiation that would need to take place to get a ceasefire in Gaza.
- [12:32]
Amos Hochstein
So I think the. And I truly believe that doing this deal now in Lebanon gives us an opportunity to get a deal in Gaza. Hamas wakes up tomorrow morning or right now. Ceasefire took effect about an hour ago. And all of a sudden, a few months ago, they thought, Hezbollah is going to support us from the north, Iran and all its proxies, the Houthis and others will support us from the east. And they wake up today and they say, we're alone. Hezbollah is no longer there to support our cause. And I think that's. This is that moment that we have. And sometimes you rarely get this kind of a moment, but I think what you need to have is giving the people of Gaza the vision of what they can have out of this, that they get to rebuild Gaza for them, how they see their future and security and aspirations and realize Hamas may not be who is going to give them that future, and Hamas needing to understand that the game has changed now. So I think that there is a symbiosis between these two conflicts. And it used to be that Gaza was the negative pole on Lebanon. I think now Lebanon can be the positive pull on Gaza. And we should not wait. We should do something immediately. And President Biden today said that we're going to turn to this right away.
- [14:02]
Lawrence O'Donnell
We know you were the special envoy on the ground there in the Middle east. And both countries negotiating this describe President Biden's involvement in reaching this ceasefire.
- [14:15]
Amos Hochstein
You know, one of the powers that enabled me to do this is everybody in the region in Lebanon knows Joe Biden. He was in Lebanon when he was a senator, just a couple of years before the Obama administration. He's been on this for a long time. And whenever I needed sort of the support, the crucial phone call and the support from the president, he cared deeply about this. And I'll tell you, I came back from the Middle East, I was in Israel and Lebanon on Tuesday through Thursday. It was back in the White House on Friday morning. And things started unraveling. And the president spent half the day on Friday making phone calls, cajoling and pushing in order to make this, to resolve that One thing that was making it collapse. So he's been a critical piece of this negotiation. He wasn't on the ground every day. He left that to me. But he was never more than one step away. And whenever it was needed, he came in to resolve that at sort of his level and push leaders to understand what's in their best interests.
- [15:26]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Amos Hochstein, congratulations and thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it.
- [15:33]
Amos Hochstein
Thank you, Lawrence, A pleasure to be here.
- [15:34]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Thank you. Pulitzer Prize winning columnist from the New York Times, Thomas Friedman, who says this is a very big deal, will join us next Foreign.
- [15:46]
Yara Shahidi
Hey, I'm Yara Shahidi and I'm the host of the Optimist Project. This is the podcast that asks what gives you hope. Each week I sit down with change makers you may or may not know from comedy, music, academia, and more to uncover what inspires them to create a better tomorrow. Join us as we find out ways that we can cultivate optimism in our own lives. You can find the Optimus Project wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode. Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. At Mint Mobile we like to do the opposite of what big wireless does. They charge you a lot, we charge you a little. So naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices due to not hating you. That's right, we're cutting the price of mint unlimited from $30 a month to to just $15 a month. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch $45 upfront.
- [16:41]
Alex Wagner
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- [16:48]
Yara Shahidi
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- [17:22]
Joe Biden
Today's announcement brings us closer to realizing the affirmative agenda that I've been pushing forward during my entire presidency. A vision for the future of the Middle east where it's at peace and prosperous and integrated across borders. A future where Palestinians have a state of their own. One that fulfills this people's legitimate aspirations. One that cannot threaten Israel or harbor terrorist groups with backing from Iran. A future where Israelis and Palestinians enjoy equal measures of security, prosperity and yes, dignity.
- [17:58]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Joining our discussion now is Thomas Friedman, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist for the New York Times. He's also the author of From Beirut to Jerusalem. Tom, thank you so much for joining us on this important night. You know, as I was reading your column this morning and reading about this being a big deal, it's like every other positive possibility on the horizon there when I'm reading about it. I don't think it's going to happen, certainly not that day. But here we are.
- [18:29]
Thomas Friedman
Well, here we are, Lawrence, and thank you for having me. One reason is a big deal and one reason it happened is behind it was a really giant tectonic shift. And that shift was that Israel over the course of October inflicted a six day war level degree of defeat on Iran basically and its entire threat network in the region, particularly Hezbollah, which was at the center of it. But you also had Hamas and the Houthis and Iran's territory itself destroying Iran's basically anti air missile defense, making significant damage to its missile making capac capacity and even its nuclear research program. It was hard to see because you couldn't be inside Iran, but it was a significant defeat. And as a result of that and then Israel invading Lebanon, taking down Hezbollah's leadership, its military leadership, at the same time, they basically were in a position where they had to sue for peace and they had to agree to cease fire. And the interesting thing going forward now to me, Lawrence, what I'm looking at is will this open the way for the Trump administration? Iran is not been this vulnerable in many, many years, going back almost to the Iran Iraq war. It will give the Trump administration a lot of leverage if it does want to renegotiate the nuclear arms agreement, curbing Iran's nuclear program. So that in itself is a big, big deal.
- [19:57]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Let's listen to something else that President Biden said today about the region.
- [20:03]
Joe Biden
Over the coming days, the United States will make another push with Turkey, Egypt, Qatar, Israel and others to achieve a ceasefire in Gaza with the hostages released and the end of the war. Without Hamas in power, that becomes possible. The United States remains prepared to conclude a set of historic deals with Saudi Arabia to include a security pact and economic assurances together with a credible pathway for establishing a Palestinian state and the full, the full normalization of relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel.
- [20:42]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And that is the optimist's view.
- [20:46]
Thomas Friedman
Well, you know, Lawrence, if you think about what Amos Hochstein achieved in these Negotiations with the backing of President Biden. It was really the equivalent of having a Rubik's Cube and trying to get all the colors aligned on one side of a Rubik's Cube. I mean, the degree of difficulty of this was extraordinary. You got all these actors in, malign actors. To get them all aligned just around a ceasefire was remarkable. To actually achieve a kind of peace settlement in Gaza would be like getting all four sides of a Rubik's Cube's colors aligned. And so I think it's going to be very, very difficult. It's difficult because Hamas right now, they don't have a lot to gain. I mean, the leadership, they don't care about their people. They wouldn't have perpetuated this war this long if they did. What's in it for them in the future? It's not clear. The best they could get, basically, is to get the leadership out of Gaza, some safe passage to Turkey or Doha. So I'm just not sure how that agreement is going to be achieved. Then. If you think about the wider deal that the President was talking about, you would bring in an Arab peacekeeping force into Gaza, you would normalize relations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority in the west bank and do a security deal between Israel and the United States. That's like multiple Rubik's cubes. I wish them well. I hope they try. You know, it's the only thing to be doing right now. But it's not going to happen. Lawrence, until one thing happens. The necessary but not sufficient condition for that to happen is that this Israeli government agree to some kind of relationship with the Palestinian Authority in the west bank. That allows them some kind of operational responsibility over time in Gaza, and therefore they blessed the whole process. Without that, it's not going to happen. And up to now, this Israeli government has consistently been looking for what I call the immaculate Palestinian. Not in Hamas, not in the pa, not in Fatah. You know, the perfect, you know, person that will be able to worm his way through the craziness of Israeli politics on this issue. Not going to happen. And until Israel steps up to that, I think none of these other, other opportunities in Gaza to create a permanent solution there are going to come about.
- [23:02]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Tom, you were just there. You're just in the region, in Israel. Is it your sense that that Israeli government search for the perfect negotiating partner isn't real, that it's a deflection, because they know that the definition of the perfect negotiating partner that they're using is simply impossible?
- [23:25]
Thomas Friedman
Well, you know, I know we've talked about this a little before. You know, Lawrence, people don't realize how radical this Israeli government is. There are members in this government, I mean, whose roots are in the followers of Rabbi Meir Kahane. I tell my American Jewish brothers and sisters, you didn't go to Jewish summer camp with these people. They weren't in the cabin in the Catskills next to your family. Okay, You've never met these people. These are super radical Jewish supremacists who bas walked out of the second Temple. And they basically have Netanyahu hostage because they've threatened to walk out of his government anytime he does any kind of deal with the Palestinian Authority. And he is under indictment and testify in his trial on corruption just in the next couple of weeks. So they basically have him in a vice and that's why he's looking for some perfect language that will neutralize them but allow the negotiations to go forward. I just don't think it's there now. That's not to say that the Palestinians have their act together either. Perfectly. And so this is, as I say, it's a Rubik's Cube Time 4 to get this done. I hope it can happen, but it's going to take some really heroic diplomacy.
- [24:38]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Tom Friedman, thank you very much for joining us on this important night. Really appreciate it.
- [24:42]
Thomas Friedman
Always a pleasure, Lawrence.
- [24:44]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And coming up, for decades to come, people are going to be enjoying things that Joe Biden built for them and they will never know who built that. Joe Biden's infrastructure investments in America will be paying off in some instances, like the new Hudson River Tunnel for the next hundred years and beyond, easily. And the Biden economy Donald Trump will inherit will continue to be going strong unless Donald Trump manages to ruin it with his tariffs. That's next with Yale professor Jeffrey Sonnenfeld.
- [25:21]
Yara Shahidi
Hi, my name's Patrick Adams. You may know me as Mike Ross on the TV series Suits.
- [25:25]
Alex Wagner
And I'm Sarah Rafferty and I play Donna Paulson on Suits.
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Yara Shahidi
And we have a podcast called Sidebar where every week we watch and discuss an episode of the show.
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Alex Wagner
Because here's the thing, neither of us have really watched it.
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Yara Shahidi
That's true. At least until now.
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Alex Wagner
So we're gonna cover all nine seasons.
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Yara Shahidi
Share behind the scenes stories, and talk.
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Alex Wagner
To our co stars and friends like Gina Torres and Aaron Korsh.
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Yara Shahidi
So look, if you love Suits Amazing, this podcast is for you.
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Alex Wagner
And if you've never watched Suits, also Amazing, you can join us and we'll watch it together.
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Yara Shahidi
I think we're going to have a lot of fun.
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Alex Wagner
Listen to sidebar wherever you get your.
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Yara Shahidi
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Lawrence O'Donnell
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Yara Shahidi
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Alex Wagner
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- [27:05]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Next time you get on a ferry, maybe you should thank Joe Bud American ferries make 56 million trips a year ferrying people, cars, trucks and cargo across rivers, lakes and ocean water. New York City has dozens of ferries in the water every day, and not just the giant Staten island ferries. But no state is more dependent on ferries than Alaska. And that is why the consistently Republican voting Alaska is getting more of the federal government's ferry grants than any other state. And it's all thanks to Joe Biden's infrastructure bill. Alaska is getting $106 million just to replace one ferry and no one there will know Joe Biden did that. Alaska is also getting $50 million to install wireless Internet on its ferries and in ferry terminals. And no one using the Internet on ferries in Alaska next year will know that Joe Biden did that. Some of the Trump voters in Alaska might think that Donald Trump did it. $300 million in grants to ferry projects in 14 states will provide crucial support to ferry systems that are never capable of paying for themselves and are crucial to the way people on those waterways live and survive. And no one will know that Joe Biden did that. Yesterday, the White House announced that the Biden infrastructure and chips legislation has created over $1 trillion in private sector investments, a $6 billion loan to support the construction of an electric vehicle factory in Georgia, where Joe Biden will surely get zero credit for building that factory. Meanwhile, Donald Trump is threatening to violate the trade agreement with Canada and Mexico that Donald Trump renegotiated while he was president. Donald Trump is now promising to violate his own trade agreement with Canada and Mexico, which he said was the best trade agreement the United States has ever negotiated. Now he says it's not any good and he wants to rip up his own trade agreement and impose 25% tariffs on everything we import from Canada and Mexico. That would raise the price to US Consumers on everything that we get from Canada and Mexico. That would make grocery store prices skyrocket instantaneously by at least 25%. The oldest member of the United States Senate, Republican Chuck Grassley, who as a senior member of the Senate Finance Committee, actually has jurisdiction over tariffs, doesn't seem to believe Donald Trump will actually do the tariffs. Senator Grassley said you got to see it as a negotiating tool and we'll have to wait and see how successful he is about that. By the end of Donald Trump's first term, Senator Grassley accepted two subsidy payments from Donald Trump's administration to compensate Senator Grassley for the losses he claims his farm suffered because of the Trump tariffs, which provoked retaliatory tariffs from other countries on American agricultural products being exported. And because tariffs raised prices, American agriculture products like Chuck Grassley's lost sales to low price agriculture from other countries on the international market. Joining our discussion now is Jeffrey Sonnenfeld. He's a senior associate dean at the Yale School of Management and a CNBC contributor. Jeff, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I know you've been studying the impact of the Biden infrastructure work and other issues on the economy, how powerful it has been. And there is a concern that next year it will people will not know where these projects came from.
- [31:06]
Jeffrey Sonnenfeld
Well, Lawrence, you just framed it so magnificently. A segue from when the last time I had the good fortune of joining you, we were talking about how wistfully Joe Biden was talking about and how nobody would quite appreciate the payouts that 95% of that $1.4 trillion of investment in infrastructure, the Infrastructure act, the Chips act and the IRA will be rolling out in the Trump administration. But you managed somehow, I don't know how you do this so efficiently to capture the drama of today's new slice on that, which is the shocking juxtaposition of Trump and the economy versus Biden and The economy. We have somebody who's building with positivity and coalitions and somebody who's out there as a, as a pit bull, as a bulldog with bravado and bullying in the darkest possible images. It's, you know, this, the, all the dorm and strong and this and the fist pounding of these tariffs that are highly inflationary. Everybody from the Hoover Institute to the Cato Institute to some of the most conservative voices in America, economic experts in America, see this as highly inflationary. And some say, well, maybe as you suggest with Grassley, he doesn't really mean it, it's just a cudgel. Well, you know, I don't know. He certainly has wilted before. He, he tried about $380 billion worth of tariffs on China across the board back in 2018. I'm sure you remember that. He blinked because China said, okay, then we're not going, we're going to retaliate with, with, with huge tariffs on, on pork and beef and beans. And, and so he said, okay, okay, never mind then, never mind then. And wilted and China said, okay, we're going to then buy massive quantities, which they didn't of those agricultural goods. So Trump got ahead with that bullying and bravado. And if he enacts it, it's extremely inflationary and doesn't even deal with the retaliatory side that Harley Davidson couldn't get product into Europe because of these threats, because of Trump putting such high barriers on European products coming into the US that they had to shut down a plant in Kansas City and open one in Thailand to get their bikes into the, into the E.U. they used to make all their bikes in the U.S. so what happens, Trump said, don't buy Harley. Here's Harley, which their logo is the iconic American eagle. But on the other side, We've got almost 16 million jobs that Biden is creating in the legislation that you just outlined. And about 1.7 million of it is in manufacturing. Trump lost in his 2.7 million jobs and couple hundred thousand of them in manufacturing.
- [33:48]
Lawrence O'Donnell
We're going to have to leave it there for tonight. Professor Jeffrey Sonnenfeld. We're going to be covering the Biden economy next year to make sure the credit goes where the credit goes. We're going to need you for that. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. And coming up, I don't know how to put awe into words and I am in awe of our next guest, Penny Lane, and the documentary film she made now on Netflix called Confessions of a Good Samaritan. As we approach the season of thanks and the season of giving, with Christmas around the corner, Confessions of a Good Samaritan presents a kind of generosity that is both extreme and perfectly reasonable at the same time. As you watch Confessions of a Good Samaritan in awe, as I did, you will also be watching in wonder, wondering, what would I do? What could I do? What should I do? And you will find that the answer to those questions might depend on the size of a particular part of your brain. That's next with Penny Lane. Here is a picture of the best Thanksgiving meal I ever had. It's a grilled cheese sandwich in the front seat of a truck delivering desks to schools in Malawi, where the kids had never seen desks before we arrived at their school that day. It was one of the more difficult days on the road in my many years in Malawi. One of the people in our delivery team was crushed by the heat and had to stop working. It was one of those days that made me wish at the time that I could do that work in a kinder climate. And then last weekend I watched a new stunning documentary on Netflix called Confessions of a Good Samaritan, and I realized that I like that. It's hard. I realized that I don't remember any other Thanksgiving as clearly or with as much moving detail, like meeting this shy girl, Awanenji, and other students at that school who happily sang their thanks for their desks that day. That made that the happiest Thanksgiving of my life. And I was so deeply thankful for being able to do the hard work that we did that day. When Mr. And Mrs. Lane had a baby girl, they only considered two Lois or Penny. In addition to giving their daughter, Penny Lane a name that was already famous, they may have imparted to her genetically, the thing that has made her a brilliant documentary filmmaker covering subjects from Richard Nixon to religious freedom and works that always test our empathy and our ability to try to understand other people. She has now made a film about empathy that takes us inside ourselves and forces us to examine our assumptions about ourselves. What we would do, what we wouldn't do. What are the limits of our empathy? Should there be limits? Her film documents her choice to be a kidney donor, a choice thousands of people have made, but almost all of them have made that choice to save the life of a loved one. Penny Lane didn't know anyone who needed a kidney, but she decided to donate a kidney anyway. She is in that tiny group of kidney donors called altruistic kidney donors, a tiny group of possibly the most Altruistic people on Earth.
- [38:03]
Alex Wagner
Altruistic kidney donors. Their amygdalas are larger than the average person. They're no better than anybody else at recognizing when somebody else is angry or sad or disgusted, but they are better at recognizing when they're afraid. Empathy is registering or understanding somebody else's emotional state. And the idea is that empathy leads to altruism. But how do we get from, I understand your distress to I care and I want to help make it better. That's the process we don't really understand.
- [38:44]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Here's what altruistic kidney donors sound like in Confessions of a Good Samaritan.
- [38:53]
Yara Shahidi
I didn't think it was this huge deal. It was a very sort of matter of course thing for me. I was healthy, and you only need one kidney to survive. So, of course, once I learned that you could donate a kidney and there were so many people out there on dialysis or dying from kidney disease who needed a transplant, it was a very easy decision for me.
- [39:13]
Penny Lane
I mean, it kind of.
- [39:15]
Yara Shahidi
I wonder, why not.
- [39:19]
Penny Lane
You know, instead of like, well, why should I give my kidney?
- [39:22]
Alex Wagner
I think we should be asking, why shouldn't I?
- [39:24]
Yara Shahidi
13 people are going to die today because they need a kidney. So does that ask you a question?
- [39:33]
Lawrence O'Donnell
You're not allowed to sit back in your chair watching this documentary. You are forced to think every minute, what would I do? You watch in awe at the generosity that seems to come so easily to those people. And think of how lucky we are that we live in a world with people like that, People whose kindness knows no bounds. And we can imagine what the bleakness of the human condition would be without people like that. People like Penny Lane.
- [40:06]
Penny Lane
Okay, so we came back because we wanted to see the results of my brain scan, your brain test.
- [40:13]
Alex Wagner
So here's your brain. Look how pretty it is. That's a lovely brain. And that's your amygdala. You definitely do have a bigger than the average amygdala. Puts you at the high end of the kidney donors. Your amygdala is bigger than we would expect. Definitely.
- [40:29]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Cool.
- [40:30]
Penny Lane
Mm. Well, that explains everything I can do.
- [40:34]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Yeah.
- [40:34]
Alex Wagner
Do you feel like. Do you feel a sense of enlightenment now?
- [40:38]
Penny Lane
What do you think I should think about that?
- [40:41]
Alex Wagner
Just like a photograph, it's sort of a map of, you know, what you were given and the experiences you've had. And in some ways, it's just as much a reflection of you as a picture of you would be. But no more than that, I would say, you know, I think it's just really incredible. Like these little cell populations inside a brain could create the sense of caring for somebody else.
- [41:05]
Lawrence O'Donnell
At the end of her truly profound film, Confessions of a Good Samaritan, after donating a kidney to a person she's never met, Penny Lane says, I still don't know if I'm a good person. But she does know what it feels like to do a good thing.
- [41:22]
Penny Lane
Is it the best thing I ever did? Yes, definitely. And in the end, like, I came around to realizing that it was beautiful because it was hard, not because it was easy. It was really hard. And that makes me more proud that I did it, you know? So that's good. That's like a really good. That's a good feeling. Like, I can put my finger on that.
- [41:53]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Joining us now is filmmaker Penny Lane, who is the director of Confessions of a Good Samaritan, currently on Netflix. Thank you so much for being here and for doing this film. So to say it's about donating a kidney. Sorry, it's about way more than that. It just is so deeply involving. And we didn't show the earlier parts in the film where it's hard. What's really hard about it, but what fascinates me is how much you appreciate that it was hard.
- [42:33]
Penny Lane
Yeah. I mean, you talked about your experience in Malawi and coming to understand that, you know, sometimes if it's really easy to do a good thing, it doesn't do much. You know, like, it doesn't, like, give you that sense of accomplishment. And I do think that this was a difficult thing for me to experience. It turned out that I'm quite afraid of surgery. Didn't know that when I started the experience, you know, had a lot of anxiety, doubt, fear going through the experience. And I was really trying to be this, like, supernaturally good person who was able to think about the needs of this distant stranger that I would never meet and constantly put their needs above my own. But that's, like, not how our psychology works. Like, so if you're having, like, an annoying day at your intake at the hospital, suddenly that seemed like the most important thing in the world. And I had to constantly remind myself, like, I am doing this to save someone's life. Yes. And it was a lot harder than I thought it would be. But I do think it's worth saying that it's probably a lot easier than most people think it is. It's like both of those things are true.
- [43:34]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Yeah. You make that point in the film. This is about community. It's about, what do we owe to each other in the Most profound way. And the way to get there is through this extreme example. And when you listen to the altruistic kidney donors, I mean, it's just not. It spins your head because you don't. That question of why not? Is an incredibly powerful question. It sounds like a wise guy question out of context, but when you sit through this and you realize what's involved here, it's so profound. And no matter how you answer that on kidney donation, it's a why not about the rest of the way you're living your life.
- [44:14]
Penny Lane
Yeah. I think that we all know that we want to have happy lives. You talked about happiness in your interest. And I think that there's a really obvious way that we seek happiness, which is looking for the things that make us feel good or that make us feel happy and relaxed and have fun. But I do think that the fullness of a human life, you want to do things that are good. You want to be good. You don't just want to have fun. You want to be good. To accomplish something with your life, to give the world something back in gratitude, I think, was a really important part of this for me.
- [44:50]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Yeah. I think we make the mistake of thinking that the fun thing, the happy thing, would be people doing stuff for us.
- [44:59]
Penny Lane
Yeah, exactly.
- [45:00]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And when you actually go and do something that is really for someone else, there's an incredible pleasure in it. I mean, it's kind of selfish of me, the way I do this work in Africa. I find it selfish because it is so pleasurable to me to be doing this good thing.
- [45:18]
Penny Lane
Totally. And I think that that's fine. I really do. And I think that we have, like, these really dumb ideas about how there are the right reasons to do a good act, an altruistic act, and then there are the wrong reasons. And I'm just like, what about just, like, the act? Like, let's care about the act more than the. You know. So part of the experience of being a kidney donor, an altruistic kidney donor, is that you have this, like, fairly grueling psychological examination, which I cover in the film. And the reason they're doing it is they want to make sure you're doing this for the right reasons, which I find fascinating. I'm like, all these people are dying. Like, why do you care? Like, just let me do it, you know?
- [45:56]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Penny Lane, we could go on and on about this. Thank you so much for doing this film. I've learned so much. I have more to learn. I'm going to watch it again. Really appreciate you being here.
- [46:06]
Penny Lane
Thank you. Thank you so much.
- [46:07]
Lawrence O'Donnell
The documentary is Confessions of a Good Samaritan. It is on Netflix. It's done by the great Penny Lane. It is the best documentary you can watch this holiday season. We'll be right back. Penny Lane gets tonight's last word.
- [46:26]
Yara Shahidi
Hi, my name is Patrick Adams. You may know me as Mike Ross on the TV series Suits and I'm.
- [46:30]
Alex Wagner
Sarah Rafferty and I play Donna Paulson on Suits.
- [46:33]
Yara Shahidi
And we have a podcast called Sidebar where every week we watch and discuss an episode of the show.
- [46:37]
Alex Wagner
Because here's the thing, neither of us have really watched it.
- [46:40]
Yara Shahidi
That's true. At least until now.
- [46:41]
Alex Wagner
So we're going to cover all nine.
- [46:43]
Yara Shahidi
Seasons, share behind the scenes stories and.
- [46:45]
Alex Wagner
Talk to our co stars and friends like Gina Torres and Aaron Korsch.
- [46:48]
Yara Shahidi
So look, if you love Suits, Amazing, this podcast is for you.
- [46:52]
Alex Wagner
And if you've never watched Suits, also amazing, you can join us and we'll watch it together.
- [46:56]
Yara Shahidi
I think we're going to have a lot of fun.
- [46:57]
Alex Wagner
Listen to sidebar wherever you get your.
- [46:59]
Yara Shahidi
Podcasts and don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.