Lawrence: Biden’s legacy will be ‘paying dividends’ for decades to come

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Lawrence: Biden’s legacy will be ‘paying dividends’ for decades to come"

Overview

In the December 11, 2024 episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves into President Joe Biden's enduring legacy, emphasizing the significant policy achievements poised to influence the United States economy and infrastructure for decades. The episode features insightful discussions with Jared Bernstein, Chair of the White House Council of Economic Advisers, and newly appointed senators Adam Schiff and Lisa Blunt Rochester, providing a comprehensive analysis of Biden's impact and the future political landscape.

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Biden's Legacy and Policy Achievements

Economic Growth and Job Creation

Lawrence O'Donnell highlights President Biden's impressive economic accomplishments, including the creation of over 16 million new jobs and achieving the lowest unemployment rate in 50 years ([07:51]). These achievements are attributed to Biden's commitment to evidence-based policymaking and his "middle-out, bottom-up" growth strategy, which contrasts sharply with previous administrations' top-down approaches.

Joe Biden ([07:51]): "From the crisis we inherited, we not only beat the pandemic, we broke from the economic orthodoxy that has failed this nation in my view for a long time."

Infrastructure Projects

One of Biden's standout achievements is the extensive infrastructure plan, exemplified by the construction of a new tunnel under the Hudson River connecting Manhattan and New Jersey. O'Donnell notes that while the tunnel will be completed after Biden's presidency, it symbolizes long-term investments set to benefit future generations ([10:04]).

Joe Biden ([11:14]): "We got infrastructure. For four years, nothing got built. Everybody said, when I wanted to have an infrastructure bill that mattered over a trillion, $300 billion, we never get it done. We got it done."

Chip Manufacturing and Supply Chain Resilience

Biden's Chips and Science Act is praised for revitalizing domestic semiconductor manufacturing, reducing reliance on overseas supply chains. This initiative aims to bring major chip companies back to the U.S., creating high-paying jobs and enhancing national security.

Joe Biden ([12:44]): "We knew in the beginning this wasn't going to come to fruition in my campaign. My administration takes time to get this done, but watch. 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 years from now will soon be the only economy in the world to have all five of the major chip companies operating in the United States of America."

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Discussion on Confirmation Processes and Nominees

Pete Hegseth's Confirmation Challenges

The episode examines the stalled confirmation of Pete Hegseth, President Trump's nominee for Secretary of Defense. O'Donnell outlines the bipartisan resistance, noting that key Republican senators have withheld their support, effectively halting the nomination process ([24:06]).

Alex Wagner ([26:05]): "It's an easy yes or no question. She's not voting for Pete Hegseth, not as of tonight."

Adam Schiff's Transition to Senate

Adam Schiff, transitioning from the House of Representatives to the Senate, discusses his approach to confirmations and his stance on recently nominated individuals such as Tulsi Gabbard. Schiff expresses concerns over Gabbard's lack of intelligence experience and questionable judgments, advocating for thorough vetting processes.

Adam Schiff ([35:33]): "She’s shown terrible judgment in fawning over dictators like Bashar al Assad or echoing Kremlin talking points."

Lisa Blunt Rochester's Role and Views

As the first woman and person of color to represent Delaware in the Senate, Lisa Blunt Rochester shares insights on the current nomination landscape. She emphasizes the importance of character and competence in nominees and reflects on her recent trip to Angola with President Biden, highlighting the administration's commitment to international relations and infrastructure projects abroad.

Lisa Blunt Rochester ([39:55]): "I think there is a lot of concern about some of the folks that are being put forward. But we also know we have a responsibility to make sure that they're properly vetted."

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Guests' Insights

Jared Bernstein on Economic Policies

Jared Bernstein commends Biden's "middle-out, bottom-up" economic strategy, noting its effectiveness in job creation and economic stabilization. He underscores the significance of bipartisan support for ongoing and future infrastructural investments, predicting substantial long-term benefits.

Jared Bernstein ([17:28]): "We delivered immediate economic relief to those most in need... planting the seeds of transformational investments in the US Economy."

Adam Schiff on Nominations Like Tulsi Gabbard

Schiff critiques Tulsi Gabbard's qualifications for the director of National Intelligence, citing her limited experience and questionable alliances. He advocates for rigorous background checks to ensure nominees are well-suited for their roles.

Adam Schiff ([35:08]): "She's never served on the Intelligence Committee, never served within the community itself... One of them is she has a complete lack of experience in intelligence matters."

Lisa Blunt Rochester on Confirmations and Trip to Angola

Blunt Rochester discusses her role in the confirmation process and the importance of bipartisan support for nominees. She recounts her experience in Angola, emphasizing the symbolic and practical outcomes of Biden's international infrastructure initiatives, such as new railway projects.

Lisa Blunt Rochester ([44:34]): "It was important for President Biden to be there to acknowledge the atrocities that both countries shared... as we move forward, we wanted to make sure we had that relationship."

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Conclusions on Biden's Legacy and Future Impact

Lawrence O'Donnell concludes that President Biden's policy initiatives, particularly in economic growth, infrastructure, and domestic manufacturing, are set to provide enduring benefits to the American populace. The administration's focus on evidence-based policymaking and inclusive growth is presented as a blueprint for sustained national prosperity, with investments made today expected to "pay dividends" for decades to come.

Lawrence O'Donnell ([08:50]): "It was a legacy that will be paying dividends for decades to come."

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Notable Quotes

• Joe Biden on Infrastructure ([10:04]): "To compete with the rest of the world, we need a massive investment in infrastructure."

• Jared Bernstein on Economic Strategy ([17:28]): "Middle out, bottom up growth is the key to a sustainable and productive economy."

• Adam Schiff on Tulsi Gabbard ([35:33]): "She’s shown terrible judgment in fawning over dictators like Bashar al Assad or echoing Kremlin talking points."

• Lisa Blunt Rochester on Confirmations ([42:27]): "There is a lot of concern about some of the folks that are being put forward, but we have a responsibility to make sure that they're properly vetted."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Last Word presents a thorough analysis of President Biden's legacy, highlighting substantial policy achievements and their anticipated long-term impact. Through interviews with prominent figures, the discussion underscores the administration's commitment to sustainable economic growth, robust infrastructure, and meticulous confirmation processes, positioning Biden's tenure as a transformative period with lasting benefits for the United States.

Transcript

[Amon Mohaddin]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Now it is time for the Last word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence.

[Alex Wagner]

Good evening, Alex. I was just checking, fact checking, something in my ear about one of our guests tonight. And the question was to our control room. Will this be Senator Schiff's first appearance on this network as a senator? And the answer is yes.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We need a little promotional thing that we can put at the bottom of our.

[Alex Wagner]

What? That's a big booking, one of those. It's a big booking. It is. Congressman Adam Schiff has done that magic trick of becoming senator.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yes. And you get to call him Senator Elect Schiff. Like that's your thing for tonight.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, I like. Senator is a title I prefer, actually.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yes, well, soon to be senator, but Senator elect. I mean, my goodness. Congratulations. I'm very excited for this interview.

[Alex Wagner]

He's actually sworn in because he's filling out the final piece of Senator Feinstein's actual term.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That's right.

[Alex Wagner]

He's also reelect. He's also elected already to the next six years. So he's getting an early start on that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

He's just senator.

[Alex Wagner]

Senators.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, he's just senator. I didn't get to fact check it with my control room. I'm just doing this. I'm flying by the seat of my pants. I'm glad that you have the control room.

[Alex Wagner]

I believe your control room has already left the building.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

They're gone.

[Lisa Blunt Rochester]

They leave.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

A couple like leave at 9:45. They're like, as soon as they see me, they leave. She's good. Lawrence is there. They're fine. They'll just do that thing they do.

[Alex Wagner]

Here we go.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

All right, here we go.

[Alex Wagner]

Thanks, Alex.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Have a great show.

[Alex Wagner]

Thank you. Well, the Brookings Institution is the Harvard of Washington think tanks. Founded 108 years ago in 1916, it is the oldest and most prestigious general policy think tank in Washington. Old enough to have had a long life before the term think tank was even applied to scholarly institutions like Brookings. In the mid 20th century, Brookings Publications were being assigned in college reading lists in social sciences and economics. Because of Brookings nonpartisan commitment to evidence based policymaking. As the Republican Party drifted in the 20th century away from evidence based policymaking to sloganeering about crime and opposing taxation in any form, for any purpose. Some Republicans came to see the Brookings Institution as a problem. Republican President Richard Nixon actually plotted a break in of the Brookings Institution. That was one of Richard Nixon's many criminal ideas as President of the United States. That criminal conspiracy was not carried out. But another Nixon team break into the Democratic National Committee headquarters eventually drove Richard Nixon from office, forcing him to resign the presidency when his involvement in that criminal conspiracy was exposed. A year after the President who wanted to break into the Brookings Institution was forced out of office, the Heritage foundation was created in Washington as an attempted Republican counterbalance of sorts to the Brookings Institution. But you cannot balance nonpartisan evidence based scholarship with partisan Republican based pamphleteering. So to this day, the Brookings Institution is the center of serious policy scholarship in Washington D.C. and so it was to the Brookings Institution that President Biden went today to describe his domestic social policy achievements and what to expect from those policy for many years to come. The President was welcomed by Glenn Hutchins.

[Jared Bernstein]

Brookings is committed to nonpartisan scholarship. Our work is grounded in the proposition that sound policy starts with facts thoroughly analyzed, rigorously tested and thoughtfully applied to the world's most complex challenges. Today we'll hear from a leader who exemplifies the Brookings mission. Over the course of his long career in Washington, President Biden has consistently shown his commitment to evidence based policymaking.

[Alex Wagner]

Evidence based policymaking. Imagine that. That is a moment we will not see again over the next four years. The next president will never be introduced anywhere as someone committed to evidence based policymaking. Those words are not used lightly at Brookings, where they would probably not be applied to many presidents. It wasn't Joe Biden's first time speaking to the scholars at Brookings. NBC's Mike Memeley reminded me today that six years ago Joe Biden spoke at Brookings as a former senator and Vice president. Former vice president too. Who was a year away from announcing his candidacy for president. Joe Biden described the policy failures of the Trump administration then and what he thought we should do about it.

[Joe Biden]

So we have to deal with the tax code. It's wildly skewed toward taking care of those at the very top. It favors, overwhelmingly favors investors over workers. And it's riddled with unproductive expenditures. Look what's happened. The latest tax cut. Once again, those at the very top get the biggest breaks. And what we. What do we have to show for it? Second, we've got to educate our people. We found that by the end of this decade, six in 10 jobs are going to need some training, some education beyond high school. And you're not going to make it. College, community college, they should be free, in my view. I believe every state university should be free. We can afford it. The third thing we've got to do is we have to empower workers. We've got to rebuild this nation's infrastructure. Look, we need roads, we need waterways, we need ports to move our products. We need highways and transit to get workers to and from work. We need lightning fast broadband to communicate. It's not a luxury, it's an absolute necessity. To compete with the rest of the world, we need a massive investment in infrastructure. Roads, bridges, airports, broadband. We've been lagging behind for many, too many years now, and we can afford it.

[Alex Wagner]

And even after entering the presidency on the verge of a possible economic depression worldwide because of the COVID 19 pandemic and the resulting supply chain disruptions around the world that increased inflation worldwide, President Biden never lost sight of the policy goals that he announced that day at Brookings in 2018.

[Joe Biden]

We delivered immediate economic relief to those most in need. We got back to full employment, got inflation back down, managed a soft landing that most people thought was not very much likely to happen. Today here at Perkins Institution, I'd like to talk about pivotal actions we've taken to rebuild the economy for the long haul.

[Alex Wagner]

Today, the President laid out a legacy that the Washington press corps might be inclined to forget in the coming years, when Donald Trump will eagerly and falsely be taking credit for computer chip factories opening and jobs being created. Thanks to the policy achievements of President Biden and the Democrats in Congress that will be paying huge economic dividends for decades to come. And in some of the infrastructure projects for the next hundred years.

[Joe Biden]

Most economists agree the new administration is going to inherit a fairly strong economy, at least at the moment. An economy going through fundamental transformation that's laid out a stronger foundation and a sustainable, broad based, highly productive growth. Over 16 million new jobs. New jobs, the most in any single presidential term in American history. The lowest average unemployment rate of any administration in the last 50 years. 20 million applications for new business records. I mean, new business is a record, I should say. Stock market hits record highs. After decades of sending jobs overseas for the cheapest labor possible, companies are coming back to America, investing in building here and creating jobs here in America, in my view, where they belong. We acted quickly to get inflation down with the help of Republicans And Democrats, inflation came down to pre pandemic levels. Wages have increased, but still too many working and middle class families struggle with high prices for housing and groceries and the daily needs of life. At the same time as inflation, interest rates continue to fall, we've entered a new phase of our economic resurgence.

[Alex Wagner]

The first tunnel under the Hudson river connecting Manhattan with New Jersey is 97 years old. And everyone driving through that tunnel right now, tonight, the Holland Tunnel, at this very moment just takes that tunnel for granted. It's been a permanent fact of their lives, and they should take it for granted. They have a right to take it for granted. But a new tunnel is going to be built under the Hudson river connecting Manhattan and New Jersey, thanks to the Biden infrastructure bill. By the time that tunnel is actually finished and operational, Joe Biden and Donald Trump will no longer be in politics. But for the next hundred years at least, we will have Joe Biden to thank for that tunnel. But that tunnel and the rest of Joe Biden's legacy probably won't have Joe Biden's name on it. President Biden reminded us today of the difference between Donald Trump and Joe Biden on infrastructure.

[Joe Biden]

We got infrastructure. For four years, nothing got built. Everybody said, when I wanted to have an infrastructure bill that mattered over a trillion $300 billion, we never get it done. We got it done.

[Alex Wagner]

I was one of the people who did not expect Joe Biden to get it done because he was working with the smallest margin a President's party has ever had in the United States Senate. But it turns out his 36 years of experience in the Senate mattered, mattered a lot in pulling off those legislative miracles that delivered on the Biden agenda.

[Joe Biden]

United States invented these computer chips, but over time, we stopped making them. In the very beginning, we had. We produced 40% of them in the world. Well, they all went overseas. Almost virtually all. So when the pandemic hit, we found out how vulnerable America was. Supply chains abroad got shut down in the Far east because people got sick. The factories making the chips closed, and all of a sudden, everybody started learning about supply chains. A phrase was probably used more in the last four years than the last 40 years. I'm serious. Couldn't get these chips. Prices soared. For example, it takes over 3,000 chips to build an American automobile. 3,000. But when the overseas factories making those chips shut down, the production stopped and the cost of new cars soared.

[Alex Wagner]

President Biden and the Democrats in Congress delivered financial support to Americans struggling during COVID But he pointed out today that there was a big Difference between the checks for Covid relief that the Trump administration sent to people and the checks the Biden administration sent.

[Joe Biden]

Within the first two months of office. I signed the American rescue plan, the most significant economic recovery package in our history, and also learned something from Donald Trump. He signed checks for people for 7,400 bucks because we passed the plan and I didn't. Stupid.

[Alex Wagner]

It wasn't stupid. It was decency. Joe Biden thought Americans would appreciate a president, a person whose modesty and respect for the standard process that would not allow him to ask people for political credit when sending them financial help that he believed they needed and deserved. In fact, Donald Trump is the only president in history who would exploit the delivery of government benefits that way by actually putting his name on them. President Biden described how his Chips and Science act is bringing the manufacture of computer chips back to this country with new factory jobs that have average salaries of $102,000 a year.

[Joe Biden]

We knew in the beginning this wasn't going to come to fruition in my campaign. My administration takes time to get this done, but watch. 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 years from now will soon be the only economy in the world to have all five of the major chip companies operating in the United States of America. It's not only creating thousands, it will create thousands of jobs and good paying jobs building chip factories. We're always creating those jobs for workers. Installing more solar panels, batteries, selling more electric vehicles than ever before. You know, that's a construction boom and manufacturing all across America.

[Alex Wagner]

You can be guaranteed that Donald Trump and Republicans will try to take credit for that manufacturing boom over the next four years. The Biden boom. President Biden warned, correctly, that Donald Trump's threatened tariffs will increase inflation, even though Donald Trump tried to deny that in a recent interview.

[Joe Biden]

Now inflation is coming down faster than almost anywhere in the world in advanced economies. As inflation eased and the strong labor labor market persisted, Inflation adjusted. Wages and incomes began to rise. Average after tax income is up almost $4,000 than prices on average for average Americans.

[Alex Wagner]

President Biden pointed out that the unemployment rate during his administration is the lowest unemployment rate in 50 years.

[Joe Biden]

From the crisis we inherited, we not only beat the pandemic, we broke from the economic orthodoxy that has failed this nation in my view for a long time. A theory that led to fewer jobs, less economic growth and bigger deficits. I had a fundamentally different theory. My theory was the strongest economy is built from the bottom up and the middle out. From the middle out and the bottom up, not the top down and the Best way to build in America was to invest in America, invest in American products, invest in the American people, not by handing out tax breaks to those at the top.

[Alex Wagner]

Leading off our discussion tonight is Jared Bernstein, chair of the White House Council of Economic Advisers, which is a cabinet position in the Biden administration. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. You know, as we sat there, because you were there too at Brookings today, listening to that speech, it's the first time that I really felt I understood the Biden policy and economic philosophy approaching these issues. There's a way that these kinds of speeches have a droning quality even when it's in State of the Union. There's this recitation rhythm to it that even I tune out of. But it was this speech today. It was laid out so clearly. And it may be that it's all retrospect. It may be that he's describing actual accomplishments as opposed to hopes, that it became very clear, especially with that speech that Mike Bemley reminded me of six years ago at Brookings about what this president's approach has always been to these issues.

[Jared Bernstein]

The clip that you played from six years ago, I found remarkable. I wasn't familiar with that clip. And he's literally talking about the very problems that not only did he face when we came into office, but that he's dealt with in ways he described today. And as you and I sat there, we heard about the effectiveness, the progress we've made with what the president calls middle out, bottom up growth, which he holds in stark contrast to a kind of trickle down approach that enriches the wealthy, hurts our fiscal outlook, exacerbates inequality, as opposed to the worker centered approach that we've implemented to the tune of the kinds of accomplishments and progress you've mentioned in terms of 16 million jobs, lowest average unemployment rate in 50 years, 20 million new businesses, every one of them an act of hope and optimism, the lowest uninsured rate on record. Of course, the stock market that's hitting records, helping 401ks get lifted and $1 trillion of private investment flowing in to make resilient the very supply chains he was worrying about six years ago. So it is a remarkable trajectory. And I think that came out of.

[Alex Wagner]

The speech today in wondering what the Biden legacy is. You really don't have to wonder anymore if you actually listen to or read this speech today. This is clearly the Biden policy achievement legacy. There may be a legacy in the survival of Ukraine. We don't know the end of that story yet. But these are completed accomplishments. There really is going to be the first tunnel built across the Hudson river in most people's lifetimes.

[Jared Bernstein]

Well, as you pointed out in your very fulsome introduction, yes, that's certainly many of these seeds are being planted, but they will take years, as you said, to reach fruition. And that's also kind of a remarkable thing for a politician to say. I'm not just doing things that are helping you today. His enforcing of union power, his making sure that families and businesses could get to the other side of the crisis with the checks that you mentioned earlier, shots in arms, checks in pockets, reopening the economy, getting back to full employment, but planting the seeds of transformational investments in the US Economy, standing up domestic industries that wouldn't be here. Now those seeds like the tunnel you mentioned, that could be 2, 4, 8, 10 years in the making, but if they're properly cared for by the incoming administration, and that's an if those investments will flourish. Now one reason to be probably less skeptical or cynical about that is that when you've got a factory in your backyard that's being built or a chip fabrication plant that's three football fields long employing construction workers and manufacturing workers, as you mentioned, making real money, $100,000 a year, I don't care if you're a D or an R, you're not going to want to take that down. So I do think that these lasting agendas, these lasting investments will pay off big.

[Alex Wagner]

You know, I think of President Eisenhower who literally invented the interstate highway system. There was no interstate highway system before him, did not obviously get completed in the 1950s during his administration, but because it was a brand new thing, he got credit for that for a significant period of time after his presidency. It's forgotten now. You have to be of a certain age to know it now. But you now live in a Washington press corps who believe it is stupid to ever do something legislatively where the payoff to voters is years down the road. They actually think that that is stupid governing because you don't profit from it direct.

[Jared Bernstein]

Not only does President Biden obviously reject that because of his actions that we just discussed show that investments that are going to stand up factories in this country building clean energy, batteries, electric vehicles, semiconductors, and again decades long investments that will pay out over the course of generations, but in real time, those investments are as much or even more. He said this in the speech today in red states as they are in blue states. So again, when the president stood up and said I'm going to be the president for all America. He meant it and he over delivered and that's something that I think you do if you have the integrity, the vision of a Joe Biden. And yes, you're right in many ways I think that's probably a lost art.

[Alex Wagner]

We're going to need your help on this program next year when Republicans start trying to take credit for this stuff. Jared Bernstein, thank you very much for joining us tonight. And coming up tonight, former Fox Weekend host Pete Hegseth still does not have the votes to be confirmed in the United States Senate as Secretary of Defense. The new junior Senator from California, Adam Schiff, will join us next.

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[Alex Wagner]

If you're counting YES votes in the United States Senate, Donald Trump's choice for Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, does not have the yes votes to be confirmed as of tonight. Three Republican senators on the Senate Armed Services Committee have refused to say that they would vote YES for Pete Hegseth after his confirmation hearing in that committee, Republican Senator Mike Round said we'll find out after he comes back and he answers those questions in public. Republican Senator Joni Ernst said she supports the confirmation process. Who doesn't? But she has refused to say that she will vote yes for Pete Hegseth. Republican Senator Deb Fisher, also a member of the Armed Services Committee, has refused to say she would vote for Pete Hegseth. And it takes only one, only one of those Republicans on the Senate Armed Services Committee to defeat the nomination in the committee. It would then take four Republican senators to vote against Pete Hegseth's nomination on the Senate floor to defeat the nomination in the full Senate. Today, Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski made it very clear after a meeting with Pete Hegseth that she is not a yes vote for Pete Hegseth.

[Lisa Blunt Rochester]

How was the meeting with Hegseth? Someone you can support?

[Joe Biden]

I had a meeting with Pete Hegseth and I appreciated the opportunity for exchange of conversation.

[Alex Wagner]

Did you ask him about the allegations?

[Joe Biden]

I had a conversation with Pete Hegseth and I appreciated the opportunity for the exchange. What are you still concerned about? I gave you my statement.

[Alex Wagner]

That's what you. Are you going. You buy his denial?

[Joe Biden]

He committed sexual assault, engaged in excessive drinking.

[Amon Mohaddin]

You buy those denials?

[Joe Biden]

I'll just tell you that I had an opportunity to talk with him and I appreciated that chance.

[Alex Wagner]

She did not say yes. It's an easy yes or no question. She's not voting for Pete Hegseth, not as of tonight. Today, Democrat Richard Blumenthal, a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said Pete Hegseth does not yet have the votes to be confirmed.

[Richard Engel]

What you've heard so far about Pete Hegseth, do you think the prospects are Judging by what I've heard from my Republican colleagues, I did ask a question. The odds of his being approved are still less than 50. 50.

[Alex Wagner]

You're hearing dissenting voices among your Republican colleagues.

[Richard Engel]

I am hearing from a Republican colleague grave doubts about his ability to do this job in a way that upholds our national security. There are too many doubts, too many risks and threats to our national security. And I think my Republican colleagues are really deeply troubled. And to be really blunt, if the fear of Donald Trump and his potential retribution were less, there's no question that this nomination would go down and go down heavily. You think they're being leveraged to vote yes. The pressure is just overwhelming, almost beyond words from a bully, a tyrant, someone who will use every political leverage simply to uphold his own ego invested in this potential nomination.

[Alex Wagner]

Yesterday, Adam Schiff went From being a member of the House of Representatives to a member of the United States Senate when he was sworn in to serve the remainder of the late Senator Dianne Feinstein's term in office, giving him a head start on the class of senators who won six year terms in the last election, who will be sworn in in January. Senator Schiff also won a six year term in the last election. Senator Schiff distinguished himself from the House of Representatives as chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, then as an impeachment manager in Donald Trump's first impeachment trial in the United States Senate, and then as a member of the January 6 committee. In an interview this weekend, Donald Trump said on the basis of absolutely nothing, that all members of the January 6 Committee and the staff of the January 6 Committee should all go to jail. That is, of course, not going to happen because none of them committed any crimes. It is one of Donald Trump's many ridiculous empty threats that can only be believed by his most weak minded followers. The Chairman of the January 6th Committee, Congressman Bennie Thompson, was asked about that threat today. Over the weekend, former President Trump in an interview, suggested that January 6 members should be jailed. Do you have any reaction to that and do you think that a president or a preemptive pardon is necessary?

[Bennie Thompson]

Well, I'll take it one at a time. Okay. First of all, President, former, to be President Trump is absolutely wrong. There's nothing we did as a January 6th select committee that violates the law. Just because you disagree with the work of the committee is no way to threaten those members of the committee with jail. So obviously that's his opinion as to whether or not President Biden does anything with respect to that. It's his decision. I'm comfortable with the fact that as members of Congress, we were doing our job. And as long as we do our job, there are certain guarantees that we have, and I look forward to enforcing those guarantees.

[Alex Wagner]

Joining us now for his first interview since he became the junior Senator for the state of California is Democratic Senator Adam Schiff. Senator, welcome to confirmation season, which is the big job distinction between your time in the House and your time in the Senate. When you were in the Senate floor for your swearing in, was that your first time on the Senate floor?

[Yalda Hakim]

I had been there a couple times. First on an impeachment of a federal judge and then for the first impeachment of President Trump.

[Alex Wagner]

And House members technically have floor rights. They can walk onto the Senate floor whenever they want. It doesn't happen very often.

[Yalda Hakim]

It doesn't happen very often. And I think apart from those two impeachment trials, I had not been on the Senate floor.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, I want to go to that point. Benny Thompson was just addressing this notion of, first of all, the crazy talk of Donald Trump about jail with January 6th committee members to me is utter nonsense. There's no judicial process or criminal process that can be applied to any members. But this question of pardons by President Biden for members of the January 6th committee.

[Yalda Hakim]

Well, first of all, in terms of what Trump is saying, I think he has a couple intentions here. He obviously wants to try to intimidate members of the January 6 committee and others who held him accountable. We did our oversight as chairman. Thompson was saying perfectly appropriate and more than appropriate, necessary. But he also wants to send a message to others in the future. Don't hold me accountable. Don't try to hold me accountable, because if you do, I will jail you or I will sic my Justice Department on you or my FBI director on you. So he also wants to discourage any accountability in the future. This is not, I think, what people were voting for. Crime was an issue, but in California, it's smash and grab robberies, it's violent crime, it's someone gunning down a healthcare executive. It's not political retribution. In terms of President Biden, I don't think pardons are necessary. Those of us on the committee are very proud of what we did. We feel it was an important public service. What made those hearings we held so powerful is that almost all the witnesses were Republicans. Is he going to jail all these Republicans, including his own attorney general? So we're proud of our work. And, you know, I don't like the precedent of outgoing presidents then pardoning their administration or their fellow party members. The president will decide what he decides, but I don't think it's necessary.

[Alex Wagner]

It isn't, but. So there's a lot of mythology around presidential powers as exercised by Donald Trump. For example, the notion that the president can jail someone. The president can't jail anyone. When he was interviewed on the weekend about tariffs and, you know, the follow up question was, would he punish business executives who raised prices after their goods were hit with tariffs? The notion that the president can punish a business executive or anyone for anything is fiction. There is no punishment that belongs that the President of the United States has in his hands.

[Yalda Hakim]

You know, I think that's certainly true in terms of the criminal law. He can't simply say, this businessman said something I didn't like or did something I didn't like. But there are other ways. Obviously, he can reward or potentially economically punish a business. He could charge the Justice Department to investigate them or withhold support for a merger or potentially, you know, in the case of Elon Musk and others, award contracts, lucrative contracts to them or deny them lucrative contracts. So he can economically reward or potentially punish. But his threats to go after executives, prosecute them somehow. That's nonsense. He may be able to harass them through use of this abuse of the Justice Department. But we still have a court system, a functioning court system. I hope and pray we continue to have that which, you know, protects our civil liberties and rights.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, every tariff Donald Trump introduces is going to raise prices and nothing's going to happen to anyone working at the companies where those prices go up. Confirmations. You're already voting on confirmations as a new member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, where the Democrats are still moving Biden appointees for federal judgeships for confirmation.

[Yalda Hakim]

We are. And you know, I think those appointments are enormously important to restore balance on the courts at really every level of the court. Most of the nominations that are moving forward right now are district court judges. I wish more the court appeals judges were getting confirmed, but the Senate leader, Schumer, Chairman Durbin, have a pretty impressive record of moving through these confirmations, particularly the district court, and want to see that continue right up until the last day.

[Alex Wagner]

I wanted to ask you about the Tulsi Gabbard nomination to be director of National Intelligence. You're former chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. This is right in your strike zone. This is someone who has praised Bashar al Assad, the now deposed dictator of Syria. How will you approach her confirmation in the Senate?

[Yalda Hakim]

Well, I certainly want to hear her out. I want a thorough background check done of her record. The things that concern me, though, may be hard to overcome. One of them is she has a complete lack of experience in intelligence matters. She never even served on the Intelligence Committee, never served within the community itself, never served with any of the agencies. I don't think she had any intel role in the military when she served in the military. This is a job with a very steep learning curve to learn all the systems, all the overhead architecture, what signals intelligence is to distinguish from geospatial, human intelligence, et cetera, all the different disciplines. But she's also shown, as you pointed out, terrible judgment in fawning over dictators like Bashar al Assad or echoing Kremlin talking points. And this is someone who may very well be advising the president of the United States what we ought to do on issues of war and peace, how we should interpret intelligence that we're getting. And you don't want someone with bad judgment whispering in the president's ear, particularly a president that isn't particularly known for his judgment to begin with. So a lot of concerns may be difficult for her to overcome, at least with me. But I also want to see a thorough, a background check done. I want to see it done by the Bureau. But if they won't have the Bureau do it, then we'll have to do it ourselves on committee.

[Alex Wagner]

Senator Adam Schiff, such an honor to have you join us in your first appearance as a senator on this network. And you can tell me now you like the Senate better than the House, right? I mean, come on.

[Yalda Hakim]

I do.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay.

[Jared Bernstein]

There you go.

[Alex Wagner]

That's why you ran for it. From the House, Senator Schiff, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you. And coming up, she started as an intern 34 years ago in Delaware Congressman Tom Carper's office. And next month, she will take the oath of office to replace Delaware's retiring Senator Tom Carper. Delaware Senator elect Lisa Blunt Rochester will join us next.

[Amon Mohaddin]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis and anytime, anywhere.

[Yalda Hakim]

Let's get up to speed.

[Alex Wagner]

We've got some breaking news right now.

[Amon Mohaddin]

Watch your favorite shows live.

[Alex Wagner]

There's a lot happening here in Washington as Donald Trump's second term starts to take shape.

[Amon Mohaddin]

Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app.

[Alex Wagner]

In 2016, Democratic Congresswoman Lisa Blunt Rochester became the first woman and first person of color to be elected to the U.S. house of Representatives from the state of Delaware. And in January of next year, Congresswoman Rochester will make history again when she is sworn in as Delaware's first black and first woman United states senator. In 1989, Lisa Blunt Rochester went to work as an intern in the office of Delaware Congressman Tom Carper. Tom Carper later was elected to the Senate. And when Senator Carper retires from the Senate in January, his seat in the Senate will then be taken by his former intern, Lisa Blunt Rochester, now the senator elect from Delaware. Joining us now for her first interview since Election Day is Democratic Senator elect Lisa Blunt Rochester of Delaware. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Lisa Blunt Rochester]

Thank you for having me.

[Alex Wagner]

Again, you understand the seniority system here since Senator Schiff is already a senator, with which it's going to be about 30 days of seniority on you he had to go first.

[Lisa Blunt Rochester]

Yes, yes.

[Alex Wagner]

You'll be getting used to that seniority.

[Lisa Blunt Rochester]

I understand seniority. And I think Andy Kim even jumped ahead of me as well, which I came in the House first, but Andy.

[Alex Wagner]

Jumped over so well, they add in for seniority. Your House service, too, when they're calculating it. So it's not completely irrelevant. You're going to be in the thick of the confirmation process in January. It's the new senators will be voting on the confirmations of all of these Trump nominees. What are you seeing in this group so far?

[Lisa Blunt Rochester]

Well, you know, I think first of all, you have to start off with the premise that the role of the Senate is so important in this kind of process. I mean, a president can put forward whoever he or she wants to put forward, but the reality is these are individuals who are going to be judged on their character. They're going to be judged on their competence. You know, have they actually worked in the fields that they are being considered for? In Delaware, I had the opportunity to serve as secretary of labor as well as head of state personnel. And that's just on a state level. On a federal level, we're talking about people who will have national security issues to deal with and secrets. We're talking about people who will be dealing with our public health. And so I think there is a lot of concern about some of the folks that are being put forward. But we also know we have a responsibility to make sure that they're properly vetted, that people get to answer questions and that we really, you know, do our due diligence in making sure we fulfill our role. So I think, you know, as you heard from Senator Schiff, you know, we as Democrats are going to do our due diligence and make sure that we get answers to the questions that are necessary. And, you know, again, there are some that are very concerning.

[Alex Wagner]

There have never been more troubled nominees from an incoming administration. It's now Tulsi Garrett, Pete Hegseth, you know, his attorney general choice has already gone down in flames and there more trouble with more nominees. Cash Patel at the FBI. So it should be a kind of overwhelming version of the confirmation process for the senators.

[Lisa Blunt Rochester]

Yeah, well, you know, I think back to this last administration. You just did a piece on the legacy of Joe Biden, and I think about people like General Lloyd Austin, who not only was he competent and prepared and of character, but he even had bipartisan support. And I think the best of all things is to have folks that come in and have demonstrated their capacity to do the Work and that are ready to serve, but also have that bipartisan support. I think with these nominees, the challenge is they don't even necessarily have all Republican support, let alone bipartisan support. So we're going to let the process work itself out, but, you know, we're ready.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. Prior to the Trump era, unanimous votes for confirmation for cabinet officials in the Senate were very, very common. We're going to squeeze in a quick break right here. When we come back, I want to ask you about that trip to Angola that President Biden took. You were in that delegation that went to Angola. We covered it here on this program. Want to hear more about that when we come back after this break. Last week in Angola, President Biden said this.

[Joe Biden]

Anthony and Isabella made it to the British colony in Virginia, where they were sold into servitude and became two of the first enslaved Americans in a place that 150 years later would become the United States of America. They had a son considered the first child of African descent born in America, William Tucker. The Tuckers learned their family history around the dinner table. That history led Wanda here in Angola a few years ago. She didn't speak the language, but that didn't matter. When Shirav Wanda said she felt something profound, like she'd come home, that was her comment to me. She called it the connection without words.

[Alex Wagner]

After that trip to Angola, Wanda Tucker joined us on this program.

[Lisa Blunt Rochester]

It was important for President Biden to be there to be in Angola, to acknowledge the atrocities that both of the countries shared, Angola and America, and to stand there and to be able to want to move forward and to be in partnership together. It was so important, important to me and my family, and I know it's important to millions of others. African Americans, Americans and Angolans.

[Alex Wagner]

Back with us is senator elect Lisa Blunt Rochester, who joined President Biden and Wanda Tucker on that trip. You spent some time with Wanda Tucker. What was that like?

[Lisa Blunt Rochester]

You know, I have to say first how grateful I am and what an honor it was for President Biden to invite me on that trip. You know, this is the first really official thing that I've done as a senator elect, which is to go to the continent of Africa and specifically to go to Angola and to be there with the Tucker family. She was there with her brother and her cousin, and Wanda herself carries this. You could feel the legacy and you could feel the embrace and the warmth of the Angolan people when they saw the family, which was very, very special. Just to be a part of that, just to be in that space. You Know, the president, I thought, did such a great job in not only talking about the economy, national security, the future, our mutual future together, but he also, at the Slavery Museum, talked about the legacy of slavery and the role of our country. And that for us, one of the lines that he said that really resonated was that we write history, not erase it. And so it was very powerful to be there also as representing this branch of government. Because for me, what was important is as our president was the first to go to Angola, and as he leaves office, we want to make sure that we continue on the relationship. So as I come into the Senate, Sarah Jacobs, congresswoman from California, was on the trip as well, chair of Subcommittee on African Affairs. As we move forward, we wanted to make sure we had that relationship. And so it was a powerful trip. We got to speak to young people, we got to speak to business leaders. We also, I got to meet with the head of their parliament, their national assembly as well. Very powerful trip. And again, just the legacy. It was a trip of past, present and future.

[Alex Wagner]

And there's now a big Biden infrastructure supported project in Angola and other African countries, a railway project that he was there to announce. Senator elect Lisa Blunt Rochester, thank you very much for being with us tonight and your first appearance as senator elect. Please come back as senator.

[Lisa Blunt Rochester]

I'll be back. I'll be back. Thank you.

[Alex Wagner]

Thank you very much. We'll be right back. Delaware's Senator elect Lisa Blunt Rochester gets tonight's last word.

[Amon Mohaddin]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.

[Lisa Blunt Rochester]

Let's get up to speed.

[Alex Wagner]

We've got some breaking news right now.

[Amon Mohaddin]

Watch your favorite shows live.

[Alex Wagner]

There's a lot happening here in Washington as Donald Trump's second term starts to take shape.

[Amon Mohaddin]

Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app.