Lawrence: Biden’s ‘tech-industrial complex’ warning might be most remembered line of his presidency

Summary

President Biden’s Final Farewell Address: A Historic Warning

In the January 16, 2025, episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves deep into President Joe Biden's poignant final speech from the Oval Office. This address is seen as a culmination of Biden's extensive career in public service, where he issues a compelling warning about the emergence of what he terms the “tech-industrial complex.”

Biden’s Speech: Echoes of Eisenhower

O'Donnell draws a parallel between President Biden’s farewell address and President Dwight D. Eisenhower’s historic 1961 warning about the “military-industrial complex.” At [03:55], Biden emphasizes the dangers of concentrated power in the hands of a few ultra-wealthy individuals and large technology conglomerates. He states:

“In the councils of government we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence. Whether sought or unsought by the military industrial complex, the potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.”
– Joe Biden [03:55]

O'Donnell notes that while Eisenhower's warning has been etched into American consciousness, Biden's caution about the “tech-industrial complex” may similarly become a defining legacy of his presidency. He remarks:

“Decades from now, President Biden's warning about the oligarchy taking shape in America and what he called the tech industrial complex might be the most remembered lines spoken by President Biden.”
– Lawrence O'Donnell [04:14]

Key Themes Addressed by Biden

Biden’s address covers several critical issues:

• Oligarchy and Concentrated Power: Biden warns against the rise of an oligarchy fueled by extreme wealth and technological dominance, which threatens democratic principles and economic fairness.

• Climate Change: Highlighting the existential threat of climate change, Biden underscores the importance of his administration's climate and clean energy initiatives, asserting that economic growth and environmental protection can coexist.

• Misinformation and Media Integrity: He raises alarms about the proliferation of misinformation, the erosion of the free press, and the unchecked power of social media platforms, calling for accountability to safeguard democracy.

• Supreme Court Reforms: Biden advocates for constitutional amendments to impose term limits on Supreme Court justices and to clarify that no president is immune from crimes committed while in office.

A notable moment in the speech occurs at [09:16], where Biden encapsulates his vision:

“Misplaced power exists and will persist. That is the only statement that President Eisenhower made in his eight years in the presidency that changed the way we thought about what we were looking at and dealing with.”
– Lawrence O'Donnell [09:16]

Expert Analysis: E.J. Dionne and Adam Schiff React

Following the speech, O'Donnell engages with E.J. Dionne, a Washington Post opinion columnist and senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, alongside Senator Adam Schiff.

E.J. Dionne’s Perspective: Setting the Stage for Future Battles

Dionne reflects on the strategic nature of Biden's farewell address, noting its departure from typical legacy-defending speeches. He points out:

“Joe Biden turned the page to the next fight in our politics. I think what was so striking tonight is these attacks on oligarchy in an administration where Elon Musk is going to hold a major position.”
– E.J. Dionne [11:15]

He suggests that Biden is proactively outlining the battleground for future political struggles, particularly concerning the tech industry and misinformation.

Senator Adam Schiff’s Insights: Building on a Historical Legacy

Senator Schiff echoes the significance of Biden’s address, comparing it to Eisenhower's enduring warning. He emphasizes the potential long-term impact of Biden’s remarks:

“I think it's going to be the same with Biden, that his last speech is going to be one of the most important speeches he gave as president.”
– Adam Schiff [13:03]

Schiff highlights Biden’s focus on systemic issues like Supreme Court reforms and the constitutional amendment against presidential immunity, framing them as pivotal issues for Democrats moving forward.

Attorney General Confirmation Hearing: A Divisive Process

The episode transitions to the contentious confirmation hearing of former Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi, Donald Trump’s nominee for the U.S. Attorney General position. The hearing is scrutinized for Bondi’s inability to definitively acknowledge Joe Biden’s victory in the 2020 election and her stance on various legal matters.

Ted Danson’s Critique: The Collapse Under Pressure

Ted Danson critiques Bondi’s performance, emphasizing her faltering when questioned on Trump-related issues:

“She was very, very good until it hit Trump sensitivity and then complete collapse.”
– Ted Danson [30:13]

Dallon observes that Bondi maintained composure until topics directly implicating Trump were introduced, leading to a perceived lack of credibility and independence.

Lawrence O'Donnell’s Analysis: Implications for DOJ Independence

O'Donnell analyzes the potential ramifications of Bondi’s confirmation, questioning the future independence of the Department of Justice:

“With a president who has essentially immunity to commit crimes, having an attorney general who can't say no to him… That's a prescription for disaster.”
– Lawrence O'Donnell [36:42]

He underscores concerns that an Attorney General perceived as loyal to Trump could undermine the DOJ’s role in upholding the rule of law.

Looking Forward: Biden’s Legacy and Future Political Battles

As the episode concludes, O'Donnell anticipates the historical significance of Biden’s final interview, scheduled for the following night. He emphasizes the importance of preserving Biden’s insights for future historians, highlighting the enduring relevance of his warnings against concentrated power and the manipulation of information.

“Tomorrow night, I am hoping that we have a conversation that is of as much value to future historians as it will be to the news cycle.”
– Lawrence O'Donnell [44:38]

Notable Quotes

• Joe Biden [03:55]:
  “In the councils of government we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence. Whether sought or unsought by the military industrial complex, the potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.”

• Lawrence O'Donnell [04:14]:
  “Decades from now, President Biden's warning about the oligarchy taking shape in America and what he called the tech industrial complex might be the most remembered lines spoken by President Biden.”

• E.J. Dionne [11:15]:
  “Joe Biden turned the page to the next fight in our politics… the attack on the tech industrial complex where a lot of very rich tech people have now rallied to Trump.”

• Senator Adam Schiff [13:03]:
  “His last speech is going to be one of the most important speeches he gave as president.”

• Ted Danson [30:13]:
  “She was very, very good until it hit Trump sensitivity and then complete collapse.”

Conclusion

Lawrence O'Donnell's comprehensive summary of President Biden's final speech and the subsequent Attorney General confirmation hearing offers listeners a profound understanding of the critical issues shaping the current political landscape. By highlighting Biden's strategic warnings and the controversies surrounding DOJ leadership, the episode underscores the ongoing struggle to preserve democratic integrity in the face of evolving challenges.

Transcript

[Jeff Lewis]

Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy live and uncensored.

[Ted Danson]

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[Jeff Lewis]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[E.J. Dionne]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Jeff Lewis]

Now it's time for the Last word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I did not know the price of Oreos, Alex. You.

[Jeff Lewis]

Well, you just taught me something at Costco.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

At Costco anywhere, a special place. Okay. I don't know the price anywhere, but now I do.

[Jeff Lewis]

I'm glad I could give that information to you, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you, Alex. Thank you. Have a great show. Thank you. Well, you heard, or many of you heard, President Biden's final speech from the Oval Office tonight. Tomorrow night you will hear his final interview from the Oval Office in a discussion that I will have with President Biden in the Oval Office tomorrow. You'll see it at this hour tomorrow night. I was in the Oval Office tonight in preparation for that in the back of the room with the press section there while President Biden was delivering that final speech. And what you could not see in that frame where it's just the one shot of the President is off to the side where his family was first lady, vice president, second gentleman, and for example, things like when the President was thanking his wife and thanking his vice president, they were sitting beside each other and they were both holding hands in what was for them a very emotional moment in a room that was otherwise occupied by three cameras and the people running that system to deliver that speech to you. And just a couple of reporters, me taking a couple of notes in this notebook as I was standing there. And, and there was a point in the speech early where I made a note to myself that this was reminding me of Ike, meaning Dwight Eisenhower and his military industrial complex warning. And sure enough, a moment later, that's exactly what President Biden was talking about. When World War II began in Europe, 1939, Dwight Eisenhower was a member of, of the 19th biggest army in the world. That's right. The United States army then was smaller than the army of Portugal. But by the time General Eisenhower was in command of the largest invasion by sea in history on D Day just six years later, he was leading the most powerful army in the world. And 16 years after that, as President of the United States, Dwight Eisenhower was worried about the influence of the American military when combined with the even more powerful influence of the richest men in the country and in the world who supplied arms to the American military and to the world. President Eisenhower described that as the military industrial complex. He describes that way for the very first time in his farewell address on January 17, 1961, delivered just as President Biden did tonight from the Oval Office.

[Joe Biden]

In the councils of government we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Whether sought or unsought by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of.

[Joe Biden]

Misplaced power exists and will persist.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That is the only statement that President Eisenhower made in his eight years in the presidency that changed the way we thought about what we were looking at and dealing with. The military industrial complex was the perfect descriptor for a new power that had emerged in America that wasn't about a single individual, was a complex and a powerful one. In Dwight Eisenhower's eight years in the presidency, he never said anything as important as that warning about the military industrial complex. He never said anything that memorable. He never said anything that has lived in history the way that line has lived in history. And he said it in the very last speech that he gave as president. Decades from now, President Biden's warning about the oligarchy taking shape in America and what he called the tech industrial complex might be the most remembered lines spoken by President Biden.

[Joe Biden]

That's why my farewell address tonight. I want to warn the country of some things that give me great concern. This is a dangerous concert and that's a dangerous concentration of power in the hands of a very few ultra wealthy people. The dangerous consequences if their abuse of power is left unchecked. Today an oligarchy is taking shape in America of extreme wealth, power and influence that literally threatens our entire democracy. Our basic rights and freedoms and a fair shot for everyone to get ahead. We see the consequences all across America and we've seen it before, more than a century ago. But the American people stood up to the robber barons back then and busted the trusts. They didn't punish the wealthy, just made the wealthy play by the rules everybody else had to. Workers want rights to earn their fair share. You know, they were dealt into the deal and helped put us on a path to building the Largest middle class. The most prosperous century any nation in the world has ever seen. We've got to do that again. The last four years. That is exactly what we've done. People should be able to make as much as they can, but pay, play by the same rules, pay their fair share of taxes. So much is at stake right now. The existential threat of climate change has never been clear. Just look across the country from California to North Carolina. That's why I signed the most significant climate and clean energy law ever, ever, in the history of the world and the rest of the world trying to model it. Now it's working, creating jobs and industries of the future. Now we've proven we don't have to choose between protecting the environment and growing the economy. We're doing both. The powerful forces want to wield their unchecked influence to eliminate the steps we've taken to tackle the climate crisis to serve their own interest for power and profit. We must not be bullied. The sacrificing the future, the future of our children and our grandchildren must keep pushing forward and push faster. There's no time to waste. It's also clear that American leadership in technology is an unparalleled. An unparalleled source of innovation that can transform lives. We see the same dangers, the concentration of technology, power and wealth. You know, his farewell address, President Eisenhower spoke of the dangers of the military industrial complex. He warned us then about, and I quote, the potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power, end of quote. Six decades later, I'm equally concerned about the potential rise of a tech industrial complex. It could pose real dangers for our country as well. Americans are being buried under an avalanche of misinformation and disinformation enabling the abuse of power. The free press is crumbling. Editors are disappearing. Social media is giving up on fact checking. The truth is smothered by lies told for power and for profit. We must hold the social platforms accountable to protect our children, our families and our very democracy from the abuse of power.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I was rushed out of the Oval Office immediately after the speech, along with the other reporters standing in this very small space for reporters to be able to observe it there. And so I did not get to see the emotion that filled the room. I got a hint of it as I was leaving. I could see the President hugging, the Vice president, First lady also hugging, almost altogether there. The emotion of the Biden staff, which was against the opposite wall of the family, and the family on one wall, all converging on the President. As I say, as I was being rushed out. So that swell of emotion that happened there was something I wasn't able to observe but knew was coming because Joe Biden served more years in government before he became president than any other president. And so this was the final speech in the longest career of any politician who has ever made it to the presidency.

[Joe Biden]

My eternal thanks to you, the American people. After 50 years of public service, I give you my word, I still believe in the idea for which this nation stands, nation where the strengths of our institutions and the character of our people matter and must endure. Now it's your turn to stand guard. May you all be the keeper of the flame. May you keep the faith. I love America. You love it, too. God bless you all. May God protect our troops. Thank you for this great honor.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Leading off our discussion tonight is E.J. dion, an opinion columnist for the Washington Post and a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. He is a government professor at Georgetown University. E.J. i just want to open the floor to you on your reaction to that speech.

[Adam Schiff]

Well, you know, you were talking about how long Joe Biden has been in public life. And we kind of expect Joe Biden can't surprise us anymore. And everybody expected that this would be a speech, speech celebrating his achievements and defending his legacy, which is very defensible. There are a lot of achievements there. He didn't do that. Joe Biden turned the page to the next fight in our politics. I think what was so striking tonight is these attacks on oligarchy in an administration where Elon Musk is going to hold a major position. The attack on the tech industrial complex where a lot of very rich tech people have now rallied to Trump, having once upon a time Democrats. The talk about not being bullied into abandoning the steps he and the country took on climate change. Bullied is a word we think of when we think of the incoming president. These are all the fights of the next time around. And I was sitting there watching this thinking, I wonder if this populist Biden, if he had done this about a year earlier, if we'd be having a different fight. But the other thing that he did, this whole the collapse of the information system, the truth is smothered by for profit and power. This is what we were talking about in the campaign. This is why the campaign unrolled the way it did. So I think you're right about. I'm just so glad to see that clip of Ike because his farewell address, that whole speech is actually a really powerful speech. And I think it's going to be the Same with Biden, that his last speech is going to be one of the most important speeches he gave as president.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, it was so current, it was so of the day. Including beginning with he's just struck a ceasefire agreement between Israel and Gaza, something he's been working on for over a year. That's the way he began the speech, of course, with the actual news of the day. But he's been giving speeches. He gave one at Brookings a few weeks in December where he went extensively through, especially the domestic policy achievements. I was at that speech listening to him do that. Very little attention. He knew this is the, the speech. If he's going to get any attention on the way out the door, this is the speech that will get the attention. And he didn't go for the record as much as I expected him to. It's in there. But he used so much of the speech as a warning, as Eisenhower did.

[Adam Schiff]

As a warning and as an aggressive attack on what might be coming. And I think Joe Biden is somebody who's always preached bipartisanship. We can get along, but in politics, sometimes if you want to make a difference, you have to make enemies. And I bet there are a whole lot of attacks on this speech tomorrow from different quarters. And I was thinking as he was taking on these enemies of that great line, when FDR attacked the economic royalists, he very memorably said, they hate me and I relish their hatred. And I can see Joe Biden tomorrow thinking, yeah, I relish their hatred. If they go after these attacks on.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Oligarchs and the tech industrial who has FDR over the fireplace, the portrait of FDR over the fireplace in the Oval Office. I want to show two quick clips of what the President said because this is a Joe Biden who is now not trying to achieve anything legislatively or politically. Therefore he's willing to publicly support things that he knows he cannot get done. Like for example, term limits for the Supreme Court. Let's listen to that.

[Joe Biden]

We need to enact an 18 year time limit, term limit, time and term for the strongest ethics and the strongest ethnic reforms for our Supreme Court.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

He also said he basically wants an amendment to the Constitution to overturn the Supreme Court decision on presidential immunity. Let's listen to that.

[Joe Biden]

We need to amend the Constitution and make clear that no President, no president is immune from crimes that he or she commits while in office.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joe Biden, the practicing politician, wasn't the guy who was going to say to you, let's amend the Constitution, cuz he knows it can't happen in our current, you know, political environment. He wasn't the guy who was going to say let's put term limits on Supreme Court justices because a, it's kind of a radical idea for someone who's respectful of precedent. Takes him a while to get there. And he also knows that's something that you cannot get done in this current political environment. So that's someone who is speaking there to maybe the next 50 years, you know, get this done somewhere in there.

[Adam Schiff]

Well, and you know, I said at the beginning that he's picking the next fights. And I think this is very least two issues are very live over the next four years. I think they're issues that Democrats and progressives are going to be talking about because this Supreme Court is going to continue to give us decisions that push us back to pre New Deal jurisprudence. And so I think the, you know, a lot of people want court expansion, but this idea of term limits says we're going to pick a fight with this right wing Supreme Court. Similarly, on the constitutional amendment, the decision by the Supreme Court basically giving Trump immunity is number one incoherent. It's going to have to be fought. You know, I think there are going to be other cases someday. But it also raised so many profound problems for the next four years and for the future, then I think that's going to be on the agenda. So again, I think he has laid out here things that Democrats are going to be able to fight for and make points about what's going wrong in the country under Donald Trump.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

He made tonight the term limits for the Supreme Court a mainstream idea that's no longer it was a fringe idea the first time you heard it, it was kind of a unlikely idea. The next time you heard it out there on the edge, he just brought it right into the dead center of the Democratic Party.

[Adam Schiff]

Right. With a lot of help from a Supreme Court that continues to shock us with what it's willing to do. And so this gives, this gives people something to rally around and it opens the way for discussion. Are there other ways to rein in an out of control right wing Supreme Court? And again on this decision on presidential immunity was so outrageous. It was so opposed to everything we always thought about the president. How many times did you note that when Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon, it was because he knew he needed to be pardoned for crimes? And all of a sudden we face a world where a president can do almost anything and that's not something we can accept as a country. And I'm afraid Donald Trump is going to test test that with a lot of the stuff he's going to do. He will not feel constrained.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

E.J. deon, thank you so much for joining us on this important night.

[Adam Schiff]

Great pleasure to be with you.

[Jeff Lewis]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

President Biden announced a ceasefire agreement between the government, Israel and Hamas that he has been negotiating for 15 months. He did that this afternoon and that is next. Hey friends, Ted Danson here and I.

[Ted Danson]

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[Jeff Lewis]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Jeff Lewis]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Joe Biden]

President.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Biden started his farewell address tonight with as expected, today's breaking news began.

[Joe Biden]

Let me speak to important news from earlier today. After eight months of nonstop negotiation, my administration by my administration, a ceasefire and a hostage deal has been reached by Israel and Hamas, the elements of which I laid out in great detail in May this year. This plan was developed and negotiated by my team and will be largely implemented by the incoming administration. That's why I told my team to keep the incoming administration fully informed because that's how it should be working together as Americans.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

President Biden described the deal that he first proposed about, as he said seven months ago in the spring. But there are indications that President Biden had been urging a ceasefire on Prime Minister Netanyahu before that, long before that. Tomorrow night in our interview, I'll ask him when cease fire discussions actually began with Prime Minister Netanyahu, Was it before the shape of this agreement was first produced by President Biden? Here is President Biden's announcement of the agreement to this deal at 2:03pm this afternoon.

[Joe Biden]

Good afternoon. It's a very good afternoon because at long last I can announce a ceasefire and a hostage deal has been reached between Israel and Hamas. This is the ceasefire agreement I introduced last spring. Today, Hamas and Israel have agreed to that ceasefire agreement and the whole ending the war. You know, those of you who have followed the negotiations can attest the road to this deal has not been easy. I've worked in foreign policy for decades. This is one of the toughest negotiations I've ever experienced. And we reached this point because of the pressure that Israel built on Hamas, backed by the United States. Hamas longtime leader Sinwar was killed. Hamas strongest supporter Iran launched attacks on Israel. Those attacks failed after my administration organized a coalition of nations to stop them. And after I ordered the U.S. ships and planes to come to Israel's defense. We also shaped Israel's strong and calibrated response, destroying Iran's air defenses, but avoiding an escalatory cycle of an all out war. All told, these developments in the region which the United States helped to shape, change the equation. And so now the terror network that once protected and sustained Hamas is far weaker. Iran is weaker. Iran is weaker than it has been in decades. Hezbollah is badly degraded. And after more than 15 months of war, Hamas senior leaders are dead. Thousands of MOS fighters are dead and the military formations have been destroyed. With nowhere to turn, Hamas finally agreed to releasing hostages. You know, there was no other way for this war to end than with a hostage deal. And I'm deeply satisfied. This day has come, finally come. For the sake of the people of Israel and the families waiting in agony, and for the sake of the innocent people in Gaza who suffered unimaginable devastation because of the war. The Palestinian people have gone through hell. Too many innocent people have died, too many communities have been destroyed in this deal. The people of Gaza can finally recover and rebuild. They can look to a future without Hamas in power. The Bible says blessed are the peacemakers. Many peacemakers helped make this deal happen, including an extraordinary team of American diplomats who have worked nonstop for months to get this done. Secretary Blinken led the effort. Secretary Jake Sullivan, National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan, Bill Byrne, John Feiner, Brett McGurk, Amos Hochstein, and the Vice President worked relentlessly as we work to deliver this deal. I'd also note this deal was developed and negotiated under my administration, but its terms will be implemented for the most part by the next administration. In these past few days, we've been speaking as one team. This has been time of real turmoil in the Middle East. But as I prepare to leave office, our friends are strong, our enemies are weak, and there's genuine opportunities for a new future. In Lebanon, there's an opportunity for a future free from the grip of Hezbollah in Syria, a future free from the tyranny of Assad. And for the Palestinian people, a credible, credible pathway to a state of their own. And for the region, a future of normalization, integration of Israel and all its Arab neighbors, including Saudi Arabia. Let me close with this, my friend. For years in the United States Senate, former Senator George Mitchell, who did so much to forge peace in northern Iowa, once said about diplomacy, said it is 700 days of failure and one day success. 700 days of failure and one day of success. Well, we've had many difficult days since Hamas began its terrible war. We've encountered roadblocks and setbacks. We've not given up. And now, after more than 400 days of struggle, a day of success has arrived. God bless all the hostages and their families. May God protect the troops of all those who work for peace.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And in the United States Senate today, Donald Trump's choice for Attorney General could not admit who actually won the presidential election in 2020 in her Senate confirmation hearing for Attorney General of the United States. That's next. Today, the Senate Judiciary Committee held a confirmation hearing for Donald Trump's choice for Attorney general, former Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi.

[Ted Danson]

Ms. Bondi, you were a courtroom prosecutor for a great many years. As a courtroom prosecutor, did you ever have an enemies list?

[E.J. Dionne]

No, Senator.

[Ted Danson]

And you went on to be Florida's Attorney General. As Florida's Attorney general, did you ever have an enemies list?

[E.J. Dionne]

No, Senator.

[Ted Danson]

Would you have hired someone into the Florida Attorney General's office who you knew had an enemies list?

[E.J. Dionne]

Senator, to cut to the chase, you're clearly talking about Cash Patel. I don't believe he has an enemies list. He made a quote on TV which I have not heard. I saw your sign or Senator Durbin's sign about Cash, but I. I know that Kash Patel has had 60 jury trials as a public defender, as a prosecutor. He has great experience in the Intel Department, Department of Defense. I have known Cash, and I believe that Cash is the right person at this time for this job. You'll have the ability to question Mr. Patel, and I'm questioning you right now.

[Ted Danson]

About whether you will enforce an enemy's list that he announced publicly on television.

[E.J. Dionne]

Oh, Sen. There will never be an enemies list within the Department of Justice.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, our next guest, asked Pam Bondi about this statement made by Donald Trump's choice to head the FBI. The FBI's footprint has gotten so fricking big, and the biggest problem the FBI has had has come out of its intel shops.

[Jeff Lewis]

I'd break that component out of it.

[Ted Danson]

I'd shut down the FBI Hoover Building.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

On day one and reopening the next.

[Ted Danson]

Day as a museum of the deep state. What is the FBI's role in national security and counterterrorism and how important is that role?

[E.J. Dionne]

You know, Senator, I believe now more than ever counterterrorism is so important and vital in our country. We are facing such incredible threats here and abroad.

[Ted Danson]

Given that importance, is it responsible to call for shutting down the FBI's counterterrorism and national security work? And will you as Attorney General, impede or shut down the FBI's counterterrorism and national security work?

[E.J. Dionne]

Senator? Senator, I believe that national security is vital right now for our country on so many fronts. I could continue to discuss many others role in that. And the FBI plays a vital role in counter terrorism which you will or.

[Ted Danson]

Will not shut down.

[E.J. Dionne]

I will look at each agency. I have no intention of shutting anything down right now. Senator, I am not in that office yet. And if confirmed, I will look at each individual agency and how it should be managed. But counterterrorism right now in our world is vital.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So were you completely reassured?

[Ted Danson]

You know, in many respects, she was terrific. She's twice elected Attorney General of a major state. She said all the right things about rule of law, protecting the institutions, no fear or favor, all of that. And then you fly into sort of the Trump sensitivity no fly zone and everything suddenly went haywire. And she couldn't answer the question whether Joe Biden won the election. She couldn't say that there was not present predication to prosecute Jack Smith. There were. And what was strange about that is that her big issue is can you be independent from Trump? Will you be a legit, honest, you know, stand up, independent Attorney general, or will you be his tool and his stooge. And in her answers, she was usually very good until they hit stuff that connected to Trump. And the change in the conduct, the change in the quality of the answers sent a really powerful signal that, oh my God, there really is something going on around Trump with her, where the answers suddenly collapse when she's so good, when you're talking about things that aren't touching that Trump area.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

If you cut back to the first confirmation hearing for a Trump Attorney general, Senator Jeff Sessions was very careful to try to make it very clear to the committee that, no, no, no, he would absolutely be independent and he wouldn't be taking orders from the President. There's really no attempt to do that.

[Ted Danson]

Here, much less of an attempt. You know, I think she will say, I will be a strong and independent Attorney General in those general words. And then you ask her for something that tests that proposition, like, can you tell us that Joe Biden won? And she can't do that. Just can't do that. So it's almost as if there's some kind of like strange magnetic force around Trump, a force field that the strong Pam Bondi that we see in regular questions collapses under that force. I guess it was very odd. She was very, very good until it hit Trump sensitivity and then complete collapse.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

One thing that seems to be on Donald Trump's mind is the 25th amendment. There were reports from inside the Trump administration, especially after January 6, that there was a discussion of the 25th Amendment, which is to say, use the Vice President and a majority of the Cabinet, the Cabinet, to then basically they can vote the President out. And this seems to be a choice of Cabinet officials where Donald Trump is very conscious of the 25th Amendment, making sure 100% of them would not ever be in a discussion of using the 25th Amendment, no matter what he does.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah. And it's particularly scary in the first presidency that will be operating under the Chief Justice Roberts immunity decision, where he is allowed to use Cabinet officials, his tools of power, to commit crimes that is in the core presidential powers and therefore full immunity. And if they're worried about their criminal immunity, he pardons them. So you could essentially run a full on criminal enterprise by this President through this Cabinet, scot free. And certainly that makes independence in the Attorney General, even if she can't prosecute, to at least call things out and defend the rule of law, a pretty vital characteristic. And it was one that we only saw nominally and rhetorically, not in her actual ability to answer in matters that would have been touchy with Trump and.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

MAGA in the Department of Justice. The FBI resides in the Department of Justice. How is the authority divided between the Attorney General and the FBI Director over the FBI? So Kash Patel's sick dreams about the FBI, Is that something that the Attorney General can just step in and go, no, you can't do that.

[Ted Danson]

The FBI Director is appointed by the President, not by the Attorney General.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I have an information hearing from him.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah. And so in theory, there's a direct line of report to the President, but in practice, the Attorney General and the deputy have an enormous amount to say about what goes on within the FBI. There's always tension between the two offices, but fundamentally, the FBI Director reports to.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The Attorney General as you go forward in the confirmation process. And by the way, so Pam Bondi, your assessment of her vote in the Senate? There's no hint so far of any Republican hint.

[Ted Danson]

In fact, celebratory support for her on the Republican side.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. So we can assume she's gonna get the Republican votes for confirmation on the.

[Ted Danson]

Senate floor at this point, I would think that would be the case.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

What is your sense of how the Cash Patel confirmation hearing will go in your committee?

[Ted Danson]

I think they're rallying. There's immense pressure to get behind even as flawed and damaged and strange a candidate as Pete Hag says. And so I think they've learned over time that as long as they all move together, as long as there's no defection, and as long as they all spout the same line, they can get away with a lot. And there are very powerful forces from the pressure of the incoming President to the billions of Elon Musk, to the flying monkeys on the Internet of the far right who threaten people with having their children killed and all that kind of stuff. When they get out of line. They are under really, really immense pressure. And you see it in the collapse of concern about. I mean, could you imagine if a Democrat candidate for FBI came in with a left wing enemies list? Their heads would explode.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Not one element in the bios of these nominees would. Any single one of those elements would sink any Democratic nominee for anything in a Senate confirmation hearing. Yeah.

[Ted Danson]

We have not learned the skill of gathering in a phalanx like centurions and marching through a field of lies.

[Joe Biden]

Yeah.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

To defend lies. Yeah. You're not very good at that. Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight. Senator Adam Schiff got his first chance to participate in confirmation hearing today as a senator in the Senate Judiciary Committee. He will join us next.

[Jeff Lewis]

Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy Live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are. Download the SiriusXM app for over 425.

[E.J. Dionne]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[E.J. Dionne]

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[E.J. Dionne]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Our next guest, Senator Adam Schiff, questioned Donald Trump's choice for Attorney General Pam Bondi in Senator Schiff's first confirmation hearing. As a member of the Senate Judiciary.

[Jeff Lewis]

Committee, are you prepared to advise the President not to pardon people who beat police officers?

[E.J. Dionne]

Senator, as I said, the pardons are at the direction of the President. We will look and we will advise. I will look at every case on a case. Let me finish on a case by case basis.

[Jeff Lewis]

Okay, good.

[E.J. Dionne]

Let me implore violence to police officers.

[Jeff Lewis]

Follow up with that. So will it be your advice to the President? Mr. President, I know you said you want to issue hundreds of pardons on day one. Will it be your advice to the President? No, Mr. President, I need to go over them on a case by case basis. Do not issue blanket pardons. Will that be your advice to the President?

[E.J. Dionne]

Senator, I have not looked at any of those files. If confirmed, I will look at the files.

[Jeff Lewis]

And will you be able to do will you be able to review hundreds of cases on day one?

[E.J. Dionne]

I will look at every file I have asked.

[Jeff Lewis]

Of course you won't. So will you advise the President?

[E.J. Dionne]

Can I answer the question? Well, my question is I would have plenty of staff. You said of course you want.

[Jeff Lewis]

So you'll be able to review.

[E.J. Dionne]

I'm not going to mislead this body, nor you.

[Jeff Lewis]

All right, let me ask another question. You don't want to answer that. Let me ask.

[E.J. Dionne]

You were censured by.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joining our discussion now is Democratic Senator Adam Schiff of California, new member of the Senate Judiciary Committee. It seems rather obvious that these two positions are in conflict. Pam Bondi claiming that she will review all of Donald Trump's pardons for January 6th. Donald Trump already saying he intends to do them in the first hour after he's sworn in on Monday.

[Joe Biden]

Yes.

[Jeff Lewis]

There's no way to reconcile that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

She can't do it.

[Jeff Lewis]

No, no. No one could do that. I think she wanted to give a generic answer that would sound pleasing. I will go on a case by case basis, but not acknowledge. Well, the president's going to just issue a series of hundreds and hundreds of pardons on day one, so I guess I won't be able to do that after all. This was a pattern that played out throughout the hearing. Generic statements, unwilling to back up those generic statements when it came to any specific.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So this is your first Senate confirmation hearing. What did you learn about this process today?

[Jeff Lewis]

Well, the way it has, I guess, devolved is you try to say as little as possible during your confirmation. You try to be as generic as you possibly can. Don't give any specific specifics. Don't commit yourself to anything. And in this case, the cardinal rule was do not say anything to upset Donald Trump. So using that standard, she couldn't say who won the 2020 election. She couldn't say whether there was massive fraud affecting the outcome of the election. She couldn't say that she would even preserve the evidence in the January 6th investigation. She couldn't even make that commitment. She couldn't make any commitment that she thought Donald Trump might not like. And after this Supreme Court decision that gives him essentially immunity to commit crimes, absolute when it comes to the Justice Department, to have an attorney general who can't say no to him, can't even tell him unpleasant truths like, you lost the election in 2020, Mr. President. That's a prescription for disaster.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So one of the things I noticed procedurally, and these are things I care about because I know how they can matter in confirmation hearings, is that Chuck Grassley, who's the oldest member of the United States Senate and certainly the oldest chairman, he's the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, now Republican. He was there back when these things were run in a reasonable way. And he allowed a second round of questioning today, which was not allowed with Pete Hegseth. In the past, senators were allowed in confirmation hearings, often as many rounds as they wanted. It's just as long as there's a senator who has more questions, go ahead. But at least you got the second round, which is less protective of this nominee than they were yesterday with Hegsa. Yes.

[Jeff Lewis]

And all that is the subject of negotiation. Yes, we negotiated how many rounds. We negotiated how many minutes per round. We asked for more minutes. We got less than we wanted. So all of that is the subject of a negotiation. But in that negotiation, when you're in the minority, you don't have a lot of leverage. So we use what leverage we can, and we got as much opportunity to question the witness as we could.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

But the outcome in these two hearings suggests that, well, in the Hegseth thing, they knew he has to be protected a lot more than Bondi has to be protected, that we think Pam Bondi can actually ride through two rounds of questions and she has enough skill at talking about these things and deflecting, whereas Hegseth, we need to get him off the stage as fast as possible. One round. That's it.

[Jeff Lewis]

I think that's right. And there are also a lot more vulnerabilities when it comes to Hegseth. His mismanagement of the veterans organizations, his allegations of sexual assault, of excessive alcohol or alcoholism. And so there were a lot more material and his complete lack of experience to manage an agency the size of the behemoth that is the Defense Department. So there was a lot more for Democrats to work with in terms of his background, his inexperience. Bondi has experience. She was an attorney general in Florida. She's tried cases. With Bondi, the issue wasn't her experience, it wasn't her personal background. With Bondi, the issue was, okay, the president is entitled to name a friend or even a loyal supporter, but when push comes to shove, when that loyalty conflicts, as it will conflict with your oath of office, with your duty of the Constitution, the country, will you buckle? That's really the question. And on that, not particularly satisfying answers.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator Adam Schiff, thank you very much for joining us here tonight. Really appreciate it. We'll be right back. Tomorrow night at this hour, we will present to you President Biden's final interview. I'll conduct that interview tomorrow in the Oval Office. We will present it to you here at this hour. Tomorrow night, I am hoping that we have a conversation that is of as much value to future historians as it will be to the news cycle. In fact, the value to future historians is more important. We'll have that conversation in the Oval Office tomorrow. You will see it here at this hour tomorrow night.

[Ted Danson]

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