Lawrence: Canada's PM humiliated Trump today, but not as much as Trump humiliated himself

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Episode Title: Lawrence: Canada's PM Humiliated Trump Today, but Not as Much as Trump Humiliated Himself
Release Date: May 7, 2025
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell, MSNBC

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Introduction

In this episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves deep into the political missteps of former President Donald Trump, particularly focusing on his recent interactions with international leaders and his administration's handling of tariffs. The episode features insightful discussions with Congressman Mark Pocan and Minnesota Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan, shedding light on the real-world impacts of Trump's policies on small businesses and consumers.

Trump's Self-Humiliation and International Failures

Lawrence O'Donnell opens the episode with a scathing critique of Donald Trump's recent behavior, highlighting how Trump continues to undermine himself both domestically and internationally.

• Self-Humiliation: O'Donnell emphasizes Trump's inability to answer fundamental questions, citing his recent appearance on Meet the Press where Trump conceded, "I don't know," a first in his political demeanor. (Timestamp: 03:10)

  O'Donnell: "Donald Trump is the most ignorant person in American history to ever be asked questions about politics or government..."

• International Relations: The episode spotlights Trump's interaction with Canada's Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau. O'Donnell describes how Trudeau adeptly outmaneuvered Trump, leaving the former president publicly humiliated. The discussion underscores Trump's declining mental and physical state, portraying him as an exhausted figure unable to maintain his usual bravado. (Timestamp: 09:58 - 15:08)

  Trudeau: "I think it’s really complex...but what could possibly be the problem?"

House Hearing on Tariffs and Congressional Failures

Congressman Mark Pocan takes center stage as O'Donnell discusses a pivotal House hearing where Pocan posed a simple yet critical question to the Treasury Secretary about who bears the cost of tariffs— a question Trump’s Treasury Secretary failed to answer.

• Key Interaction: Pocan persistently asks, "Who pays tariffs?" to which the Treasury Secretary evades with vague responses. This exchange highlights the administration's failure to provide clear economic explanations. (Timestamp: 26:36 - 30:18)

  Mark Pocan: "Who pays tariffs?"

  Treasury Secretary: "Sir, the history would show that it is a complicated mix of who pays the tariffs over various times."

• Implications: Pocan explains the real burden of tariffs falls on American consumers and small businesses, not on foreign entities as previously claimed by the administration. His testimony illustrates the tangible negative effects of Trump's tariff policies on everyday Americans. (Timestamp: 31:09 - 34:54)

  Mark Pocan: "Trump's tariffs are ultimately a tax on the average person in Wisconsin and across the country..."

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's Incompetence

The episode transitions to a critique of Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, whom O'Donnell labels as the "most unqualified and incompetent secretary of defense in the history of that position."

• Misuse of Secure Communications: Hegseth is accused of using the encrypted app Signal for official Pentagon business, including sharing sensitive military information. This breach of protocol has led to increased scrutiny and an expanded investigation into his actions. (Timestamp: 37:03 - 39:40)

  O'Donnell: "Donald Trump continues to humiliate himself by defending the most incompetent defense secretary in history, Pete Hegseth."

• Operational Failures: Recent operational mishaps, such as the inexplicable cancellation of military flights to Ukraine, are attributed to Hegseth's poor judgment, resulting in significant financial losses and jeopardizing national security. (Timestamp: 35:27 - 39:40)

  Jen Psaki: "Anybody else in the military would have been court-martialed, fired..."

Campaign Against Trump's Trade War: Peggy Flanagan

Minnesota Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan joins the discussion as a candidate for the U.S. Senate, presenting a compelling argument against Trump's trade policies.

• Impact on Small Businesses: Flanagan shares personal anecdotes from small business owners adversely affected by tariffs, highlighting price surges and decreased competitiveness in international markets. (Timestamp: 43:38 - 46:57)

  Peggy Flanagan: "These tariffs are crippling my business. They are crushing me... they’ve increased a piece of equipment by 30%."

• Advocacy for Consumers: She underscores how tariffs are essentially hidden taxes on consumers, leading to higher prices for everyday goods and negatively impacting the economy. (Timestamp: 45:56 - 46:57)

  Peggy Flanagan: "These tariffs are really taxes on small business owners, but also taxes on consumers. It’s outrageous."

Key Insights and Discussions

• Economic Mismanagement: The episode highlights the detrimental effects of Trump's tariff policies, emphasizing the direct financial strain on American consumers and small businesses. The administration's failure to transparently address these issues exacerbates public frustration.

• Political Accountability: Through Congressman Pocan's questioning and Flanagan's campaign narrative, the podcast stresses the need for political accountability and transparent economic policies that prioritize the well-being of everyday Americans over questionable foreign policy maneuvers.

• National Security Concerns: The discussion on Defense Secretary Hegseth's incompetence raises serious concerns about national security and the internal management of the Pentagon under Trump's administration.

Notable Quotes

1. Lawrence O'Donnell on Trump's Ignorance:

   "Donald Trump is the most ignorant person in American history to ever be asked questions about politics or government." (03:10)

2. Justin Trudeau's Diplomacy:

   "We’re not going to be discussing that unless somebody wants to discuss it. I think that there are tremendous benefits to the Canadian citizens..." (13:37)

3. Mark Pocan on Tariffs:

   "Trump's tariffs are ultimately a tax on the average person in Wisconsin and across the country..." (31:51)

4. Peggy Flanagan on Tariffs' Impact:

   "These tariffs are crippling my business. They are crushing me... they’ve increased a piece of equipment by 30%." (43:38)

Conclusion

In this episode, Lawrence O'Donnell provides a compelling analysis of Donald Trump's ongoing political and economic struggles. Through meticulous examination of congressional hearings and personal testimonies from affected individuals, the podcast underscores the far-reaching consequences of Trump's policies. The discussions with Congressman Pocan and Peggy Flanagan offer a clear-eyed view of the challenges facing small businesses and consumers, while also advocating for stronger political accountability. Additionally, the critique of Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth serves as a stark reminder of the critical importance of competent leadership in national security roles.

For listeners seeking an in-depth understanding of the current political landscape and the tangible effects of high-level policy decisions, this episode offers valuable insights and robust discussions.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Mark Pocan]

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[Jen Psaki]

It's time for the Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Hey, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Hey, Jen. It's so great to see this series of guests you have here in your first week. I have to be taking notes now during the 9pm hour, which I'm kind of accustomed to. And so it's actually quite helpful to me to see the way you're framing things, Jen. We have in this hour Congressman Mark Pocan, who is a small business owner. And in today's hearing in the House with the treasury secretary, he asked the simplest question that has ever been asked by anyone in Congress of a Treasury secretary. And Donald Trump's treasury secretary could not answer that question. Every treasury secretary from Alexander Hamilton forward knew the answer to that question immediately, but not today. And so he has more than earned his position as our leadoff guest in this show tonight.

[Jen Psaki]

What a good guest. I think one of the only people who has watched more hearings and consumed them than me might be you, Lawrence. And so I'm very much looking forward to hearing your conversation and seeing what he has to say.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Here's how big a fan of congressional hearings I am. I was present at an uncountable number of them in the Senate Finance Committee and on the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee before that where I was staff director of each one of those committees. I love them. I can't get enough of them to this day in the House or Senate. And that's how easy an audience I can be.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, I share this nerdy love, as you know, and what's important and everybody who watches you and loves you as much as I do knows this is that there are moments that happen in these hearings that are so telling about what's happening in Washington, what the government is doing, what administration officials are up to the task in the job and which ones are not and who sometimes are the rising stars, which it sounds like one of. Your first guest is one of them.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. This is one of those hearings. This is one of those. We're going to get right to it. Thank you, Jen.

[Jen Psaki]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thanks. Well, no one is capable of humiliating Donald Trump as perfectly as Donald Trump humiliates Donald Trump. And Donald Trump did that again today. But he wasn't the only one. Donald Trump was also humiliated once again today in the Oval Office by the top elected official of another country, in this case Canada. And we've seen a steady stream of that sort of humiliation of Donald Trump in the Oval Office this year, beginning with the president of France. The Canadian prime minister both humbled and humiliated Donald Trump at the same time without Donald Trump having the slightest idea it was happening. Because Donald Trump is a 78 year old man clearly off his game, is the polite way of putting it, and maybe in significant neurological decline and physical exhaustion at this point. When you watch Donald Trump on video and Sundays Meet the Press saying I don't know to Kristen Welker's very simple question, don't you need to uphold the Constitution of the United States as president? You were watching what appears to be an exhausted hulk of a man with his inexplicable confection of hair slightly out of place for the very first time and some perspiration beginning to shine through his makeup, who just right there on TV gave up. He just gave up in the middle of that interview saying, I don't know. When is the last time you heard Donald Trump say I don't know? That is one thing that the fast talking salesman never says, even when he doesn't know, which is most of the time. Donald Trump is the most ignorant person in American history to ever be asked questions about politics or government. And the true answer to more than 90% of those questions would always be I don't know. But Donald Trump can never admit that. So he throws collections of words at questions that have no relationship to the question just to avoid saying I don't know. That's the thing he really doesn't want to say. But on Sunday, with his big frame curled into a weary ball on the edge of his chair, Donald Trump gave up and just said, I don't know. He was in effect admitting that he doesn't remember the words of his oath of office in which he solemnly swore to defend The Constitution of the United States. Imagine how beaten down he had to be on the 104th day of his second presidency to humiliate himself by saying, I don't know. There's a lot more at stake for the country in Donald Trump's ignorance, expressed in the answer to that question, of course. But the I don't know was another way of Donald Trump saying, I give up. I just can't sling this stuff anymore. Donald Trump is tonight a total loser based on his own measure of winning. It has been a long time since Donald Trump promised his followers that they would get tired of winning. He hasn't told them that this year, not this tariff year, not this trade war year. Instead, he's told them how many pencils they can buy or how many dolls they can buy for Christmas. But he has not told anyone that they're going to get tired of winning. Donald Trump made the country a promise. It was a promise that the country did not ask for. And it has become, as they say in soccer, an own goal for Donald Trump. Donald Trump promised 90 deals in 90 days after he crashed the stock market by starting a worldwide trade war, which Donald Trump is very much losing according to his own standard. Donald Trump promised 90 deals in 90 days 25 days ago. So we're going to run 90 deals in 90 days is possible. The boss is going to be the chief negotiator. The boss is going to be the chief negotiator. Wow, that's great. So that's the first time in history that the President of the United States would be the chief negotiator of any trade deal. And as of tonight, the chief negotiator, Donald Trump, is showing the world what the art of no deals looks like. Donald Trump has exactly zero deals in 25 days. I have a deal. Done, done, done, done. But I need to wait for their prime minister and their parliament to give its approval, which I expect. What country? Shortly. I'm not gonna tell you what country. He was lying, of course. And I told you that night that he said that, that the most incompetent Commerce Secretary in history had no deal. None. That was seven days ago. And Howard Lutnick has not dared to say that again, has not dared to say again that he has that deal because he has no deal. Donald Trump has not negotiated a single deal, which means in his own terms, he is the loser. One of the 25 deals he is supposed to have negotiated as of tonight, he has lost 25 times because he has gotten absolutely nothing in those 25 days. But that hasn't prevented Donald Trump from lying about it. Here's Donald Trump two weeks ago in an interview with Time magazine. Question. There's zero deals so far. Why is that? Trump? No, there's many deals. Where are they? When are they going to be announced? Trump, you have to understand, I'm dealing with all the companies, very friendly countries. We're meeting with China. We're doing fine with everybody, but ultimately I've made all the deals. That was a lie. Zero deals. The art of no deals is to simply lie about mythical deals. Someone must have told the Treasury Secretary that it is against the law to lie to Congress, because this is what Donald Trump's treasury secretary told a House committee today.

[Donald Trump]

China, we have not engaged in negotiations with as of yet.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Donald Trump said two weeks ago that he, Donald Trump, was meeting with China. We're meeting with China. Those were his exact words. The Treasury Secretary today said, no, that's not true at all. Not one word has been spoken to China. None of us are meeting with China. President wasn't telling the truth. That's what the Treasury Secretary told Congress. So there's Donald Trump's treasury secretary humiliating Donald Trump today and knowing he can get away with it because he has seen Donald Trump up close this year and he probably knows that the Donald Trump who is now mired in the 25th day of the Art of no Deals is not spending his day watching the Treasury Secretary testify about Donald Trump to a House committee. No, Donald Trump spent some of his day with the electorally victorious new Prime Minister of Canada, who won an election that was fueled by by Canadian voter. Intense opposition is the kindest word to put on it. Opposition to Donald Trump, the very first President of the United States to actually offer himself as a candidate for Canadians to vote for on election Day in a social media burst of Trumpian constitutional dementia. You're about to see the video of Donald Trump achieving the Art of no Deals once again today in his utterly demented attempt, this time on TV to make Canada the 51st state. What you are about to see is the President of the United States, who sounds like he is out of his mind, sitting beside a real head of state, who obviously, though he must have expected it, still can't really believe what he's hearing in the Oval Office. And you will watch how the Canadian Prime Minister says absolutely no to Donald Trump to his face. With Donald Trump far too exhausted at this point to try to interrupt the way he did when Ukraine's President Zelensky was sitting beside him in The Oval Office. Things have gone very badly for Donald Trump every day since President Zelensky was in the Oval Office. And Donald Trump had no fight in him. Today, when the very polite Canadian beside him talked rings around Donald Trump, like a ringmaster in a circus with a trained animal, threw in some magic words that sounded flattering enough to Donald Trump so that Donald Trump actually, and you'll see this ends up nodding and agreeing with the man who is humiliating him and defeating him right there in the room on tv. The first thing you will hear Donald Trump say after the Canadian Prime Minister has humiliated him is, that's true. That's what Trump says. No president has ever lost more in one conversation in the Oval Office than Donald Trump lost in these 90 seconds.

[Justin Trudeau]

I'm a very artistic person, but when I looked at that beauty, I said, that's the way it was meant to be. But, you know, it. I just, I do feel it's much better for Canada. But we're not going to be discussing that unless somebody wants to discuss it. I think that there are tremendous benefits to the Canadian citizens, tremendously lower taxes, free military, which honestly we give you essentially anyway, because we're protecting Canada, if you ever had a problem. But I think, you know, it's. It would really be a wonderful marriage because it's. It's two places that get along very well. They like each other a lot.

[Donald Trump]

Well, if I may, as you know from real estate, there are some places that are never for sale.

[Justin Trudeau]

That's true.

[Donald Trump]

We're sitting in one right now. You know, Buckingham palace that you visited as well.

[Mark Pocan]

That's true.

[Donald Trump]

And having met with the owners of Canada over the course of the campaign last several months, it's not for sale, won't be for sale ever. But the opportunity is in the partnership and what we build together. And we have done that in the past. And part of that, as the President just said, is with respect to our own security. And my government is committed for a step change in our investment in Canadian security and our partnership. And I'll say this as well, that the President has revitalized international security, revitalized NATO and us playing our full weight in NATO.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Kind of sad, the old guy slumped forward in his bad posture, the Canadian sitting up, the Canadian talking rings around him. Prime Minister Mark Carney. You can see. Try thinking of mind racing while Donald Trump's saying these insane things. And then finally, when the Prime Minister gets his shot, could not be more calm. And Donald Trump doesn't understand, doesn't even understand what's happening on the Canadian side of that conversation. The other deal Donald Trump failed to make right there in that room on TV was a trade deal with Canada, which Donald Trump has been promising all year. Now, to make a new trade deal with Canada, Donald Trump will have to legally amend through a vote in Congress, the trade deal that he already has with Canada that his administration negotiated in the first Trump presidency. That was the rewrite of the North American Free Trade Agreement, which Donald Trump signed into law in 2018. That agreement, which Donald Trump signed into law, makes it legally impossible for Donald Trump to reach a trade agreement with Canada without also reaching a trade agreement with Mexico at the same time. Are you optimistic? Can we make a deal with Canada? I think it's really complex. I think this is really complex. Cuz they have been basically feeding off of us for decades upon decades upon decades. Right? Wrong. But what could possibly be the problem? The boss is in the room with the boss of Canada. Why couldn't the boss make a deal today? The Lutniks in the Trump administration never said it's very complex when they promised 90 deals in 90 days. Donald Trump is now refusing to do joint press conferences, the standard thing with visiting heads of state, because he does seem to have figured out exactly how much humiliation would be heaped upon him in such a press conference. Prime Minister Mark Carney had a few things to say, though, after teaching Donald Trump a few lessons in the Oval Office. I was watching your face through the.

[Peggy Flanagan]

Meeting in the Oval Office and I.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Wondered what was going through your mind when the President talked about rebracing the artificial border and how he criticized your predecessor and Madam Freeland.

[Donald Trump]

Well, thank you for, I guess for your question. I'm glad that you couldn't tell what was going through my mind as that was going through. Look, with respect to the first point, the President has made known his wish about that issue for some time. I've been careful always to distinguish between wish and reality. I was clear there in the Oval Office, as I've been clear throughout on behalf of Canadians that this is never going to happen. Canada is not for sale and never will be for sale. Some things, as I said in the room, some things are never for sale. And he agreed with that. So I distinguish between the two.

[Peggy Flanagan]

Have you asked the President to stop.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Calling Canada the 51st state?

[Donald Trump]

Yes.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

When did you ask him?

[Donald Trump]

Today.

[Mark Pocan]

What was his answer?

[Donald Trump]

Well, look, I don't know.

[Mark Pocan]

He's.

[Donald Trump]

He's the President. He's his own person. I would go back to showing the difference between a wish And a reality. We're very clear. I've been very clear publicly, consistently. I've been very clear in private. It was clear again in the Oval Office. We'll be clear throughout. The President, he understands that we're having a negotiation between sovereign nations and that we will only pursue and accept a deal that's in the best interest of Canada, not just in the short term, but in the medium and long term for Canada.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Which country do you think is prouder today of their highest ranking elected official, Canada or the United States? That view you just saw, by the way, is the view from the Canadian Embassy, which is one of the largest, if not the largest, embassy buildings in Washington. And it is the closest embassy to the capital of the United States. A deliberate choice by Canada and the United States to show how close these two governments are supposed to be and always have been, until Donald Trump insanely decided to cause trouble with the strongest ally the United States of America has ever had. Donald Trump always lied about tariffs during the presidential campaign. He always told the lie that China would pay the Trump tariffs. Other countries would pay the Trump tariffs. Now Donald Trump is telling Americans that tariffs will make them unable to afford the number of toys they might want to buy for their children for Christmas because we pay the tariffs. Donald Trump's teaching everyone that. Donald Trump is telling his followers that they won't be able to afford the number of pencils they might want to buy. That's how much they're going to have to pay for the Trump tariffs. Donald Trump has now made it very clear who pays the Trump tariffs. He's actually made it clearer than anyone else who's ever attempted to make it clear by talking about dolls and pencils and making it really simple and telling people, it's going to cost you, it's going to cost us. He's telling people they will be only able to afford five pencils when the Trump tariffs are in full effect. A pencil costs 25 cents. Now he thinks you're only going to be able to afford five of them because when you pay those tariffs, price of a pencil is going to be so high. What? Five bucks? What's he talking about? And because Donald Trump's dominant characteristic is now and always has been rank stupidity, he cannot stop bumping into his own stupidity about his examples of what can be under the Christmas tree because of his tariffs. After saying last week that because of his tariffs, children will get two dolls instead of 30 dolls. That's what he said. Two dolls instead of 30 dolls for Christmas. And then this week, amending that to three, four, or maybe even five dolls. When he stupidly talked about Christmas again while meeting with someone in the Oval Office this evening who has nothing to do with Christmas or tariffs, he did it again. There he was in a meeting with the head of an international soccer organization. No one was there to mention tariffs or Christmas or what you can afford on Christmas because of Donald Trump's tariffs. The president, who has said the stupidest things ever said in the White House about Christmas or dolls or tariffs, stumbled and bumbled his way into saying this about his visitor, the soccer guy.

[Justin Trudeau]

He's got great enthusiasm, and that's one of the reasons that you've had such success over the last number of years that you've been there. Amazing. He's like. He's like somebody that just woke up on Christmas, mourning as a young child and saw those toys under the tree. And that enthusiasm really plays very well, I have to say.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Really? How many toys under the tree for him? If there's a soccer ball under the tree for that soccer obsessed visitor in the White House, it will come with 145% tariff on it. If it actually manages to arrive in shipments from China, which have slowed down and stopped in many cases, the Trump tariffs might make it impossible for many American parents who want to have a soccer ball under the tree this Christmas just might not be able to happen. The Trump tariffs might just block those soccer balls from ever arriving in this country because the stores that have to order those soccer balls are not capable of paying 145% tariff for those soccer balls. So they might not order them, they might not be here in December. But there's Donald Trump using the one example to express enthusiasm that he should absolutely stay away from. The enthusiasm and joy of the child coming down to that Christmas tree on Christmas morning. A Christmas morning where Donald Trump has already told American parents that they will not be able to afford what their children want. How weak must his mind be to have allowed himself at the end of another tiring day, living under his full responsibility for starting a worldwide trade war that he is losing? How weak must he have been mentally and physically to have said he's like somebody that just woke up on Christmas morning as a young child and saw those toys under the tree? He said that Donald Trump, in that idiotic statement, invited yet another focus on his choice to be the the Scrooge president, which is what Republican political analyst Karl Rove is now calling him, the Scrooge President. Donald Trump's example of there being only two Dolls under the Christmas tree this year, which earned him the nickname Donnie Two Dolls on this program last week, has quickly and vividly taught any Americans who did not already understand it that we are the ones and the only ones who will pay the Trump tariffs. Every penny of an American tariff, every penny of a Trump tariff will be paid, and can only be paid in the United States by American companies and consumers. Tariff revenue enters the treasury of the United States only from within the United States. Every Treasury Secretary from the first Alexander Hamilton onward has known that. Every member of Congress has always known that. Every member of the Senate, every president always knew that. But today, with Donald Trump's Treasury Secretary testifying to Congress, knowing that lying is against the law, he tried desperately to evade a very simple question posed by our first guest tonight. Who pays tariffs?

[Mark Pocan]

Who pays tariffs?

[Donald Trump]

Sorry.

[Mark Pocan]

Well, who pays tariffs? Mr. Secretary, please excuse me. The question is very simply, who pays tariffs? Mr. Chairman, I'd like him to answer that question. He wants to answer other questions.

[Donald Trump]

Well, Congressman, if the Congressman, if the exporters, they dislike tariffs so much, why wouldn't they? If I think what you're trying to get me to say.

[Mark Pocan]

Did you remember the question? I'm not sure you did. Who pays tariffs?

[Donald Trump]

It's a very complicated question.

[Mark Pocan]

Reclaiming my time. People pay tariffs, right? Reclaiming my time, Mr. Secretary. Reclaiming my time, Mr. Secretary, as a small business owner and unfortunately I like that time back since you, it failed to recognize me for 30 seconds. So I just recently, from one of my suppliers got the tariff surcharge on things. And in addition to the tariff surcharge, guess what else got raised? American made walnut plaques. That has nothing to do with tariffs. But companies take advantage and do that. So right now we are getting screwed right and left because of the indiscriminate use of tariffs. That's the reality for Main Street. So I'll ask one more time, who pays tariffs?

[Donald Trump]

Sir, the history would show that it is a complicated mix of who pays the tariffs over various times.

[Mark Pocan]

So that's exactly the problem. If your answer, and you are a very educated person, you have very impressive bio. Cannot answer the question who pays tariffs? Because you won't answer that and you say it's a complicated issue. It's not complicated. Consumers pay Trump's tariff tax. That's the reality.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You just saw a Treasury Secretary flunk an introductory economics course on tv. House Appropriations Committee member, Congressman, you just saw Mark Pocan will join us next.

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[Mark Pocan]

So I'll ask one more time, who pays tariffs?

[Donald Trump]

Sir, the history would show that it is a complicated mix of who pays the tariffs over various times.

[Mark Pocan]

So that's exactly the problem. If your answer and you are a very educated person, you have very impressive bio. Cannot answer the question who pays tariffs? Because you won't answer that and you say it's a complicated issue. It's not complicated. Consumers pay Trump's tariff tax. That's the reality.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joining us now is Wisconsin Congressman Mark Pocan. He is also the owner of Budget Signs and Specialties, a small business in Madison, Wisconsin that has been in business for 37 years. Member of the House Appropriations Committee. Congressman, thank you very much for joining us. And thank you for teaching Congress, your colleagues and everyone the lesson of the value of the simple question that was the question of the day. Thank you very much for asking it. Were you at all surprised by not getting an answer?

[Mark Pocan]

Thanks for having me, Lawrence. Actually, yes, it was a simple Question. I had a whole lot more. I wanted to go into a number of the businesses in Wisconsin, in my district there negatively affected. I didn't think this was going to be the stumper. I thought we might have a little talk about maybe it's the importer, but that gets passed down to the consumer. But it was such simple question that he couldn't give an answer to. It really shows that Trump's tariffs are ultimately a tax on the average person in Wisconsin and across the country, and they just don't want to admit it. So while they're not winning on getting any trade deals, at the same time, we're all paying more and more for goods because Donald Trump seems to somehow think he's being creative with throwing indiscriminate tariffs everywhere.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Well, Donald Trump's now admitting who pays it. That's why he's saying you can only afford two dolls for Christmas instead of the 30 that I guess he thought people were planning to buy for Christmas. Donald Trump's making it very clear. But you could see the Treasury Secretary worrying, knowing that Donald Trump lied every day of the campaign about China paying the tariffs. And the Treasury Secretary is afraid of contradicting the campaign lie. Tell us about your own experience in your own business with what these tariffs mean.

[Mark Pocan]

Yeah, so one of our suppliers came and they had told us we were going to get an increase based on the tariffs that were coming in. And we got the increase on some goods that came from China, but I noticed we also got it on some American made products. And that's part of, of course, what you would expect to happen in a free market. Unfortunately, they're not just going to raise the prices on things directly impacted, but they raised prices on some other things. And also, you know, if I was that supplier, how do I know where the tariffs are going to end? Because any given day, tariffs could be different. They're on, they're off. Some are on, some are off. I mean, it's so indiscriminate. I use this, unfortunately, graphic comparison. It's much like a monkey throwing dung. That's how President Trump is throwing tariffs. And you never know where it's going to land, but you know it's going to make a mess. And that's what we're all experiencing.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. The very point of tariffs, the actual intention of them is to deliberately raise prices in the American economy. And because prices for goods are higher, the theory is that the American manufacturer of, say, that wooden plaque you were talking about, they can now raise their prices because the foreign Competition has been forced by law to raise their prices.

[Mark Pocan]

Yeah. And again, that's part of what we all have to explain about tariffs. And Donald Trump just lies and lies about this. And at the end of the day, Donald Trump won because of the economy. Half the people on exit polls said they voted for him because of the economy. He promised to reduce costs on day one. We're not winning on that front. In fact, things are more expensive now because of tariffs and we're going to see them get more and more expensive. I mean, we're just starting to see these tariff add ons coming from various suppliers. But you know, people are buying right now their Christmas inventory. So it is a good reason for Donald Trump to talk about it. But you may not experience that for another five or six months down the road. But right now they're trying to get all this money and part of it is artificial revenue from tariffs. I really believe, Lawrence, is to fund their now five and a half trillion dollar tax cut for Elon Musk and Donald Trump and the wealthiest in this country. So never forget their holy grail is this tax cut for the richest. Part of it is to fund it is with, I think artificial revenue from some of the tariffs. That's part of why this is in the mix. And at the end of the day, working people, middle class people and people aspiring to be in the middle class are going to pay for those tax cuts through tariffs and other ways. And at the end of the day, again, Donald Trump and Elon Musk will be better off.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Carson, Mark Pocan, thank you very much for joining us tonight. And thank you so much for making the best question of the day a three word question. A lesson for everyone in every congressional hearing about how simple is the best way. Thank you very much.

[Mark Pocan]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up, there are new reports tonight on Donald Trump's incompetent defense secretary using non secure communications and inexplicably wasting millions of dollars. That's next.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We have new reporting tonight on Donald Trump's defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, the most unqualified and incompetent secretary of defense in the history of that position, the Wall Street Journal reports. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth used Signal more extensively for official Pentagon business than previously disclosed, engaging in at least a dozen separate chats, people familiar with his management practices said. In one case, he told aides on the encrypted app to inform foreign governments about an unfolding military operation, the people said. He also used the Non Governmental Message service to discuss media appearances, foreign travel, his schedule and other unclassified but sensitive information, two people said. That report comes days after the Wall Street Journal reported that a Pentagon inspector general has decided to, quote, expand an investigation into Hegseth's sharing of military plans to a second Signal chat that included his wife and brother. We also have this new reporting tonight from Reuters. Quote, roughly a week after Donald Trump started his second term as president, the US Military issued an order to three freight airlines operating out of Dover Air Force Base in Delaware and a U.S. base in Qatar. Stop 11 flights loaded with artillery shells and other weaponry and bound for Ukraine. Within one week, flights were back in the air. The verbal order originated from the office of Pete Hegseth, the secretary of defense, according to Transco records reviewed by Reuters. The president was unaware of Hegseth's order, as were other top national security officials. The cancellations cost Transcom $2.2 million, according to the records reviewed by Reuters. In response to a request for comment, Transcom said that the total cost was $1.6 million. Of course, Donald Trump continues to humiliate himself by defending the most incompetent defense secretary in history, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth.

[Peggy Flanagan]

Obviously also on that unsecure text chain, he was sharing sensitive information. Are you looking for a new secretary of Defense?

[Justin Trudeau]

No. Not even a little bit? No. Pete's going to be great.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

His job is safe right now.

[Justin Trudeau]

Pete's doing a fantastic job against the Houthis, who like blowing ships up and watching them sink in the ocean. We're hitting them very hard. No, he's doing a very good job.

[Peggy Flanagan]

His job is safe right now.

[Justin Trudeau]

Totally safe.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joining us now is Democratic Congresswoman Mikey Sherrill of New Jersey, a former Navy helicopter pilot, now a member of the House Armed Services Committee and a candidate for governor of New Jersey. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. And let's go back. Let's begin with signal and get to that wasted money on those flights strangely canceled. What would happen to anyone else in the military chain of command that Pete Hegseth is now responsible for using communication tools like this?

[Jen Psaki]

It's really shocking. Anybody else in the military would have been court martialed, fired, and as you keep using the word incompetent, and that is the perfect word for this, the incompetence is really breathtaking to utilize an unclassified platform to transmit classified data and then to suggest that strike data was not classified, ridiculous. But then like some sort of teenage frat boy to show off to his wife and his brother, this strike information on a signal platform, it's really breathtakingly incompetent. And as you suggested, the most junior petty officer would be court martialed for this kind of behavior.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And we don't know at this stage of the reporting exactly who's responsible for canceling those flights to deliver arms to Ukraine. But it could be one of Elon Musk's kids who was wandering around at that time. At this point, who knows?

[Jen Psaki]

I think this continues to be the grave concern about our national security is what exactly is going on in the Pentagon. You see right now Pete Hicksett, the most incompetent Secretary of defense we've ever seen, firing the competent people, I think 20% now of the flag ranks, the admirals and generals who lead our military, these are career servicemen and women, people who have been there sometimes 30 plus years. And at the same time, it's unclear to what extent Doge is in the military, in the Pentagon and what they are doing. These are all questions that and others brought up at the House Armed Services hearing and questions that the Republicans on the House Armed Services Committee seemed largely uninterested in answering.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Representative Mikey Sherrill, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Jen Psaki]

Thanks so much.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Coming up, a Democratic candidate for Senate is running against Donald Trump's trade war. Minnesota's Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan will join us next. And we have another candidate for Senate running against Donald Trump's trade war. Minnesota's Democratic Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan, who is also the highest ranking Native American woman elected to office in the United States, is now a candidate for Senate in Minnesota, where Democratic Senator Tina Smith has announced she will not be running for reelection.

[Peggy Flanagan]

A loud, clear voice. That's what my Ojibwe name means, and it's core to who I am. So I'm gonna be loud and clear about what's at stake right now. Trump and his allies are ransacking our government to give more handouts to corporations and billionaires, taking money out of our pockets to line their own. They're starting mindless trade wars that make our prices skyrocket and devastate our farmers and small businesses. They're wrecking our savings, destroying Social Security and gutting our health care. And I believe people are waking up. And in this fight, it's all of us versus the extremist billionaires. And I'm betting on us because when the people speak out with a loud, clear voice together, there's nothing and no one that can stop us.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joining us now is the Democratic lieutenant governor of Minnesota, Peggy Flanagan, now candidate for United States Senate. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Early in your campaign, when did you decide to run? And was the trade war a factor in your decision, or is it something that you've had to deal with now as a candidate, having already decided to run?

[Peggy Flanagan]

Well, you know, growing up, Lawrence, I felt like the bottom could fall out at any moment. And there are too many people who feel right now and, you know, folks who understand what that's like need to be representing us in Washington. I was raised by a single mom. I relied on Medicaid for my health care. And I think that that is a reality for a lot of folks in this country. And in this moment, what I'm hearing from people all across the state of Minnesota, folks like Beth Beinecke of Busy Baby, who was awarded the Small Business Owner of the the year in Washington, D.C. by the Trump administration, traveled to Washington to say these Tariffs are crippling my business. They are crushing me. And I've leveraged my home. I may go out of business because of these tariffs. It's outrageous. I've talked to Tina Rexing of T. Rex Cookies in Eagan. She wants to expand her business, which is what we should want for, for small business owners across the country. And something, a piece of equipment that she wanted to purchase in December has increased by 30%. She's not going to be able to do that anymore. And you know, we are hearing also from farmers. Minnesota is the third largest producer of soybeans nationally and we're losing those sales to, to Brazil. And that could potentially be permanent in a moment when crop prices are low. And you know, the uncertainty around the farm bill, this is crushing, folks. And frankly, these tariffs are really taxes on small business owners, but also taxes on consumers. It's outrageous. And it's one guy, Donald Trump, who's made this decision for all of us. And we've got to fight back.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And your state, Minnesota gets some of its electricity from Canada. That interdependence across that border is very important to Minnesota.

[Peggy Flanagan]

Absolutely. Also the import of potash fertilizer from, you know, from Saskatchewan. This is so real and, you know, it's, it's not fun and games. I think the conversation that you saw that Donald Trump have today with the Prime Minister of Canada, he just doesn't know what he's doing and isn't thinking about it. But what I can tell you is that people are really feeling the pinch in Minnesota and it's chaos and ransacking the government. We have to fight back. But I think Democrats also have an opportunity to tell folks what they're for in this moment and what we're fighting for. And I think that's the opportunity to, you know, to make sure that people can thrive, not just to survive and invest in the things that, you know, people really care about instead of always fighting against Donald Trump.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Minnesota Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan, now a candidate for United States Senate. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Peggy Flanagan]

Thanks so much.

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