Lawrence: China sees 'world's biggest clown' Trump as most economically incoherent president ever

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell Episode Title: Lawrence: China sees 'world's biggest clown' Trump as most economically incoherent president ever
Release Date: April 24, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves deep into the tumultuous political landscape shaped by former President Donald Trump's economic policies, particularly his trade war with China. Drawing upon his extensive experience in political strategy and media production, Lawrence navigates through heated discussions with key political figures, shedding light on the intricate dynamics between the U.S. administration, China, and American institutions.

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Section 1: Trump's Trade War with China

China's Perception of Trump

Lawrence opens the episode by addressing the worsening trade relations between the United States and China. He highlights China's scathing view of Trump, quoting sources that label him as the "world's biggest clown" and the "most economically incoherent American president China and the world have ever seen." This negative perception underscores the failure of Trump's strategy to intimidate China into favorable trade agreements.

Economic Impact on the U.S.

Rachel Maddow articulates the adverse effects of Trump's tariffs on the American economy. She states:

"Tariffs are terrible for the American economy, terrible for American consumers, terrible for American workers, and terrible for Wall Street."
[05:46]

The tariffs, which peaked at 145%, have led to increased prices for consumers and disrupted supply chains, ultimately hurting American businesses and contributing to economic instability.

Stock Market Reactions

The episode explores the correlation between Trump's trade policies and the stock market's performance. Rachel Maddow notes:

"Because Donald Trump is publicly losing his trade war and publicly surrendering to China, the stock market gained back some of its massive Trump losses today."
[05:46]

This resurgence indicates market sentiment against Trump's economic strategies, reflecting investor frustration with the administration's handling of trade relations.

Senator Jon Ossoff on Insider Trading

Democratic Senator Jon Ossoff provides critical insights into potential corruption stemming from the trade war. He discusses the introduction of legislation to ban stock trading by members of Congress, emphasizing:

"It is absurd and everybody knows it is absurd given the information that members of Congress have access to that members can play the market while they're in office."
[17:13]

Ossoff highlights concerns over insider trading and the ethical implications of lawmakers potentially benefiting from privileged information regarding tariff adjustments.

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Section 2: Federal Government and Institutional Integrity

Jen Psaki on the Federal Reserve

White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki addresses the importance of maintaining the Federal Reserve's independence. She remarks:

"There is no need for Signal. There are so many mechanisms through which any high level national security official can communicate with other high level national security officials."
[31:52]

Psaki defends the traditional communication channels within the government, criticizing deviations that may compromise security and protocol.

Internal Conflicts within the Administration

The episode sheds light on internal strife within Trump's administration, including reported clashes between the Treasury Secretary and influential figures like Elon Musk. Rachel Maddow draws parallels to the fictional portrayals in The West Wing, emphasizing the unrealistic nature of such conflicts in real-world high offices.

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Section 3: Kilmar Abrego Garcia Case

Senator Chris Van Hollen on Judicial Proceedings

Senator Chris Van Hollen discusses the ongoing legal battle to secure the release of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, a Maryland resident wrongfully imprisoned in El Salvador. He criticizes the Trump administration's non-compliance with Supreme Court orders, stating:

"This whole thing has been so slapdash, so chaotic, so poorly conceived without any clear objectives."
[16:03]

Van Hollen underscores the broader implications of the case, warning that failure to address Garcia's wrongful imprisonment could jeopardize the rights of all Americans.

Judge Paula Zenas Accusations

The episode highlights Judge Zenas's accusations towards Trump's Justice Department lawyers for acting in "bad faith":

"He was able to meet with Mr. Abrego Garcia since he has been imprisoned in El Salvador."
[43:16]

This condemnation reflects the judiciary's frustration with the administration's handling of international legal matters, emphasizing the need for accountability.

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Section 4: Defense of Higher Education

Harvard President Alan Garber on Trump's Attacks

Alan Garber, the 31st President of Harvard University, confronts Trump's efforts to influence higher education. Garber articulates the threats posed by the administration's attempts to:

• Review Faculty Hires:
  "They want to directly review who we hire on our faculty."
  [44:31]

• Intervene in Admissions Processes:
  "They also want to intervene in our admissions processes."
  [44:31]

• Defense of Academic Freedom:
  "We cannot compromise on basic principles like defense of our First Amendment rights."
  [45:16]

Garber emphasizes the critical role of universities in fostering research and economic growth, asserting that Trump's policies undermine these foundational aspects of American society.

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Notable Quotes

1. Rachel Maddow on Trump's Tariffs:
   "Donald Trump finally admitted in one line, one little line, how tariffs actually work."
   [08:50]

2. Senator Jon Ossoff on Congressional Integrity:
   "It is absurd and everybody knows it is absurd given the information that members of Congress have access to that members can play the market while they're in office."
   [17:13]

3. Jen Psaki on Federal Reserve Independence:
   "There is no need for Signal. There are so many mechanisms through which any high level national security official can communicate with other high level national security officials."
   [31:52]

4. Alan Garber on Academic Freedom:
   "We cannot compromise on basic principles like defense of our First Amendment rights."
   [45:16]

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Conclusions and Insights

This episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell offers a stark examination of the ramifications of Trump's economic policies and administrative actions. Key takeaways include:

• Economic Mismanagement: Trump's trade war with China has not only failed to achieve its intended outcomes but has also strained international relations and destabilized the U.S. economy.

• Institutional Corruption Risks: The administration's handling of tariffs and internal conflicts raises significant concerns about ethical governance and potential corruption within high offices.

• Judicial Accountability: The Kilmar Abrego Garcia case exemplifies the judiciary's role in checking executive overreach, highlighting the importance of upholding legal standards.

• Defense of Academic Integrity: Harvard University’s resistance against presidential interference reinforces the necessity of protecting academic freedom and institutional autonomy.

Lawrence O'Donnell effectively synthesizes these multifaceted discussions, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the current political and economic challenges facing the United States.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Rob Lowe]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Now it's time for the Last Word with the great Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence.

[Rachel Maddow]

Good evening, Rachel. We have Senator Chris Van Hollen joining us tonight. The earliest he can get to us, he says, is 10:40pm so we're just saving the slot right there. Eager for him to jo case is moving along. It'll be interesting to see what his reaction is to the judge in the case of Mr. Abrego Garcia accusing Donald Trump's Justice Department lawyers of bad faith. Some those words, bad faith in court filings. That's something judges don't usually do. But he, he apparently the senator experienced some of that bad faith when he went to El Salvador and came back, as he reported to you in his first interview about it in his meeting with Mr. Abrego Garcia, he experienced the bad faith of the Trump arrangement down there.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, well, you know, it does feel like, I think in part because Senator Van Hollen has forced the issue and I feel like that case is inevitably coming to a head. Right there's the Trump administration has decided to try to dance around this issue and to dance around the questions from the direct questions from this judge and to try to, you know, kick it upstairs, kick it to the Fourth Circuit, kick it to the, kick it to the Supreme Court, try to kick it back to the Supreme Court. They've tried to dance around this for so long. But Senator Van Hollen has called the question, everybody knows that the questions must be answered. And it's coming, we're coming to the end of the period around which the Trump administration can continue this strategy and it's all been forced by Senator Van Hollen. I'll be really interested to hear what he says tonight, given how stark things are getting in that courtroom.

[Rachel Maddow]

10:40Pm is when we expect to get to him. So thank you, Rachel.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I'm ready. Thanks.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you. Trump chickened out. Now, I know what you're thinking. That's not the kind of language I use on this program. That's the kind of language that I, and I hope you have come to regard as beneath the dignity of this hour of television. Mostly because I studiously avoid cliche. And chickened out is like a wicked, lazy cliche, really cliche phrasing. It's the kind of thing you can expect from the low brows of social media world, where Elon Musk, who makes the mistake of thinking he's actually quite funny, often uses even uglier language. But Trump chickened out is actually big news today. Big news in China, where the hashtag Trump chickened out was trending on Chinese social media. Chickened out is language beneath the dignity of the Wall Street Journal editorial board, of course. So tonight, instead of saying chickened out, they wrote this. Another harsh reality is that China called Mr. Trump's bluff and seems to have won this round. Beijing has also warned countries that not to do trade deals with the United States that exclude China or else. With even US allies facing Mr. Trump's tariff assault, Beijing's threat has resonated in a way that it never previously did. US Diplomatic sway is ebbing. The question going forward is whether Mr. Trump is internalizing these economic and political lessons or merely pausing to fight his trade war another day. We doubt even Mr. Trump knows the answer, since so much of his decision making is ad hoc. And so there's the Wall Street Journal saying Donald Trump doesn't know what he's doing. And did Wall Street Journal speak? Yeah, they said he chickened out. They did. And so, after trying to play the world's biggest tough guy by launching a trade war with China and the world, Donald Trump not only did not scare China a bit, but he is being humiliated in China as the world's biggest clown and the most economically incoherent American president China and the world have ever seen. Now, remember way, way back to last week when Donald Trump was promising that he would have a big, beautiful trade agreement with China very soon, like now or sooner, no one in China is calling the White House.

[Chris Van Hollen]

No one.

[Rachel Maddow]

And so with absolutely no proposal on the table from China, no concession from China, nothing but sharp, targeted retaliatory Action taken by China against the American economy. Donald Trump has decided to surrender to China without China giving Donald Trump any anything in return. Absolutely nothing. Donald Trump said today that he was going to, at some time unknown, cut his absurdly high tariffs on Chinese goods, saying that the tariffs will, quote, come down substantially, but it won't be zero. Those were his words. Won't be zero. So now tariffs that were 145%, Donald Trump is saying, won't be zero. Okay? And because Donald Trump is publicly losing his trade war and publicly surrendering to China, the stock market gained back some of its massive Trump losses today. The stock market wants Donald Trump to lose. That's what they're saying. They want him to lose his trade war. The stock market wants Donald Trump to surrender in the craziest worldwide trade war ever initiated in the history of the world. And that's why the stock market went up today, because the Trump tariffs are terrible for the American economy, terrible for American consumers, terrible for American workers, and terrible for Wall Street. And Donald Trump said they're going to come down. That's all it took. That's all it took for the stock market to go up. Remember when Donald Trump was promising how quickly China would be calling him? The president of China would be desperately calling Donald Trump to make a deal. Here's what the Chinese government spokesperson said today. Quote, claiming it wants to reach an agreement with China while constantly applying maximum pressure is not the right way to engage with China, and it simply won't work. China's position on the tariff war initiated by the United States is very clear. We do not want to fight, but we are not afraid to fight. If it's to fight, we'll fight till the end. If it's to talk, our door is wide open. We'll fight to the end. The rest of the countries of the world have absolutely no doubt which side of the Trump versus China trade war is willing to fight to the end and which side chickened out? Donald Trump, the man who never apologizes, the man who never backs down, but in fact frequently backs down, sounded like he was trying to apologize to China. Are you going to play hardball with them?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Are you going to mention Covid?

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, I'm not going to say no, I'm not going to mention Covid. I'm not going to say, oh, I'm going to play hardball with China. I'm going to play hardball with you, President Xi. You. No, no, we're going to be very nice. Oh, he's not going to blame them for Covid. Remember when he said he was going to blame them for Covid, like last week, make them pay for Covid in whatever his final trade deal with China would be in his trade war with China? That's what he said. He brought it up. That's why he was asked about it today. Are you going to blame them for COVID 19 when you're negotiating with them? And he said, oh, no, no, no, no. That was the cowardly lion roar you were hearing. That was the Trump nonsense. Now Donald Trump is publicly begging President Xi to call him, and President Xi is not calling. The president of China is not picking up the phone. He's sending out a spokesperson to say, we'll fight, end. No one in the Trump administration has said, we will fight to the end. Donald Trump wouldn't dare say today, we will fight to the end. His treasury secretary didn't dare say, we'll fight to the end. His usually clownish Secretary of Commerce, Howard Lutnick, wouldn't dare say, we'll fight to the end because they won't, because they've already lost. Donald Trump's constant public flailing around ignorantly about tariffs in the White House these days has become a much more difficult rhetorical challenge for him than the way he idiotically talked about tariffs during the presidential campaign and lied to his voters every single time. He constantly told his campaign rallies that China would pay the Trump tariffs. He constantly told voters that not one of them would ever pay a Trump tariff, when in fact, all them and only them would pay the Trump tariffs, and China would never, and no foreign country would ever pay a tariff imposed by the United States. They never have. They never will, because that is not how tariffs work. Donald Trump never admitted that a Trump tariff, a tariff imposed by the United States, is simply an increase on the price of that product in the United States and only in the United States, and is only paid by. By buyers in the United States. But today, in his desperate tariff ramblings, Donald Trump finally admitted in one line, one little line, how tariffs actually work. Donald Trump said the words, and this was very little noticed today by the news media, he said the words about tariffs. He said, you add that to the price of a product. Yeah, that's what I've been saying about Donald Trump's tariffs since the first time he ever used the word tariff years ago. And today, Donald Trump finally, after years of lying every single time he talked about who pays the tariff, after years of lying about that, he finally said in a little notice comment, which those of you who've joined me in this multi year crusade against Trump. Tariffs here on this program really deserve to hear. So when you add that to the price of a product, you know a lot of those products aren't going to sell. That's right, Tariffman. When you add the tariff to the price of the product, which is exactly how it works, a lot of those products aren't going to sell. And the more products that don't sell, including American products that don't sell because they have components in them that have been tariffed. That is exactly how you get a recession, a really, really big recession. On Monday, Donald Trump met with the CEOs of the big retail stores, Walmart, Target, Home Depot, who told him that they could be two weeks away from empty shelves. And everyone in America walking into a Home Depot or a Target or a Walmart and seeing empty shelves would know exactly who to blame. They would blame the president who is now polling disastrously on the economy and on his illegal and inane tariff war, that he is decisively losing. A Reuters poll finds Donald Trump's approval rating on the economy is now 37%. 57% disapprove of how Donald Trump is managing or trying to manage inflation, which is to say increasing it. Polling shows 87% concerned about inflation, 86% worried about the cost of living, and 76% concerned about a recession. Donald Trump has said he couldn't care less if the price of cars goes up. He said I couldn't care less if they raise prices. Spoken like a spoiled rich kid who grew up to be a rich Republican president riding in the backseat of government cars. Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Senator Jon Ossoff of Georgia. He's a member of the Senate Appropriations Committee and the Senate Intelligence Committee. He, he is running for reelection in the United States Senate in Georgia. Senator, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Georgia could be two weeks away from empty shelves at all the big stores there. And you have Donald Trump saying, I don't care if prices go up.

[Jon Ossoff]

The president has really backed himself into a corner, Lawrence. This whole thing has been so slapdash, so chaotic, so poorly conceived without any clear objectives. And business investment is frozen. Consumer sentiment has been tanking. Investors in the United States and around the world are withdrawing investments not just from American stocks, but also from treasury bills. And in fact, it's been very worrying action in treasury markets that I think has really spooked the White House. The president's economic team is at war with itself and leaking against him and each other. And I Think the only people who are happy about this are the congressional Republicans and the Mar A Lago club members who I can imagine are doing pretty well on stock tips and getting advance notice. I would not be surprised about some of these announcements.

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, and you've introduced a bill to ban stock trading by members of Congress. Never has that been more urgent. And especially members of Congress who might get, you know, they're close to. Donald Trump might know ahead of time when he's going to say something about surrendering in his tariff war that then sends the stock market running straight up. Georgia Congressman Marjorie Taylor Greene is someone who is reported to have traded stocks in not long before Donald Trump said his the first comment he made that sent the stock market back up indicating he was going to go softer in this trade war. And so there's reason to be suspicious all around about the possibility of insider trading here.

[Jon Ossoff]

Well, it's amazing, isn't it, when these members of Congress and, you know, political allies of the President have perfect market timing. I mean, Lawrence, your viewers no doubt recall that in 2020 I unseated a supposedly unbeatable Republican incumbent senator here in Georgia. And a big part of that was Covid stock trading.

[Jen Psaki]

Right.

[Jon Ossoff]

He was among those senators who was dumping stocks and buying up shares in medical manufacturers around the time that Congress was getting briefed on the COVID pandemic while telling the rest of the country everything would be fine. And here we are again where Donald Trump's hand picked candidate to challenge me for that Senate seat in Georgia is executing magnificently timed stock trades around these tariff announcements while my constituents in Georgia are seeing their 401ks get absolutely clobbered. You know, I introduced legislation when I first was elected to ban and stock trading by members of Congress. We actually moved that bill for the first time through a major Senate committee last year. It is absurd and everybody knows it is absurd given the information that members of Congress have access to that members can play the market while they're in office. And of course, this administration is taking grift and kleptocracy and corruption to literally unprecedented levels in American history. I saw today the President is going to attend private dinners for people who buy his meme coin. And so it would not surprise me at all if the inside information is flying hot and heavy around Mar A Lago and through the Republican conference in the US House of Representatives.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah, and the entire tariff regime being controlled by one person, which is unconstitutional, unconstitutional and illegal, is the biggest invitation to Washington corruption and lobbying influence in Washington history. I mean, for example, that, that meeting with the president and the CEOs of the big stores, Walmart, Home Depot, Target, that was arranged by Washington lobbyists. That's how that works. That's how they know what time to show up, when to all that stuff. Gigantic fees are being racked up by the Washington lobbyists now getting their companies in there that they represent to have these meetings with the person who says he's in charge of tariffs in the United States and begging in some cases for exceptions from the tariffs. And those exceptions can be in effect, bought and sold through lobbying fees, through campaign contributions. Now, it's just an endless possibility of corruption that the tariff regime controlled by one person invites.

[Jon Ossoff]

I think that was probably part of the allure of this policy for this president is that, you know, corporate America would have to come to the White House, hat in hand, begging for their carve out their exception, being told to pay tribute, and he would be able to dispense favors as a king, which is what he likes to do, wield power and be the center of attention. But he's bitten off so much here and so poorly that global markets are punishing the United States. Republican members of Congress are privately calling the White House in a panic and he appears to be capitulating.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator Jon Ossoff, thank you very much for starting off our discussions here tonight.

[Jon Ossoff]

Thank you, Lawrence. And if folks don't want Marjorie Taylor Greene in the Senate, it's electjohn.com have a good night.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you very much. And coming up, sanity and decency prevailed in the Obama White House and in the Biden White House and in other White Houses, including Republican White Houses. The Trump White House, on the other hand, is filled as it was last time, with lying and bursts of insanity. With Axios reporting an actual screaming match between the Treasury Secretary and the richest person in the world. While the president was listening. A veteran of the Obama West Wing and the Biden West Wing, Jen Psaki will join us next.

[Roman Mars]

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[Rachel Maddow]

Remember Sanity.

[Jen Psaki]

The way we view it is that it's important to preserve the independence of the Federal Reserve. And that can give the American people and the markets confidence in what their projections and their predictions are. And that's long been, long been how these issues have been approached throughout history. And we think that's important to continue that trend. And we know that if the American people, businesses, the markets can rely on the independence of the Federal Reserve, that's good for the economy and good for our the integrity of that.

[Rachel Maddow]

That is the way every White House press secretary not hired by Donald Trump has always talked about the Federal Reserve carefully and respectfully. When Jen Psaki stepped up to the podium in the White House press briefing room for that very first time, I was watching and I knew very quickly that I was watching the best White House press secretary I had ever seen. And when each of Donald Trump's White House press secretaries made their rare appearances in the White House press briefing room, I knew I was watching the worst press secretaries in the history of that job, including the current holder of that job. I was a writer and executive producer of NBC's Emmy winning drama set in the White House called the West Wing. And if anyone in the writers room there ever suggested that we send the press secretary into our White House press briefing room that we had on the Warner Bros. Lot in Burbank and have her just tell obvious lies from start to finish to the press, I would have been among the first to say that that would never happen. It would so never happen. No one in the West Wing writers room would ever even suggest, which is, by the way, that would never happen is exactly what I would have said. If any writer ever pitched the idea of our fictional treasury secretary getting in a screaming match in the West Wing with the richest person in the world witnessed by the President of the United States, you never saw that in the seven years and 154 episodes of the West Wing because none of us thought that could ever happen. Axios is reporting that Elon Musk and the otherwise mild mannered Treasury Secretary Scott Besant, quote, got into a heated shouting match in earshot of President Trump and other officials in the White House last week during a dispute about the irs. Axios reports Elon Musk managed to get Donald Trump to appoint his choice as the acting commissioner of the irs. But Scott Besant won in the end when Donald Trump removed Elon Musk's choice and installed the Treasury Secretary's choice position. Axios says it was a chest to chest clash. They were not physical in the Oval, but the president saw it and then they carried it down the hall and that's when they did it again. The first witness said, said a second. It was quite a scene. It was loud and I mean loud. The White House press secretary did not deny one word of Axios reporting, which includes quoted sources saying things like the F bomb started to fly and Scott can't stand Musk. That goes pretty deep and pretty far back. And the article quotes Elon Musk calling Donald Trump's treasury secretary a, quote, soros agent. Joining us now is Jen Psaki, the host of the new MSNBC program the Briefing with Jen Psaki, which debuts at 9:00pm on May 6th. Right here, Jen, so tell us about all the times.

[Jen Psaki]

Where do we begin?

[Rachel Maddow]

Tell us about all those times you had to intervene with the cabinet members shouting matches that would occur with whoever the richest person in the world was then in the West Wing.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, first of all, as you know, because I've told you this, the West Wing is the greatest show that was ever on television and especially the seasons you wrote and brought me back into politics. But what I will say, and I hate to say this for West Wing lovers. There are screaming matches sometimes between officials, but often they're behind closed doors. They are typically behind closed doors. This was clearly not what struck me. And this would never happen in any West Wing episode or in any White House. I think is what this is about, is what's striking to me, Lawrence. I mean, this is about the irs. There have been four acting commissioners. Five acting commissioners. It's hard to keep track of sometimes. I think there have been four acting commissioners. Right. What are they fighting about in this hallway? We don't know the details of it exactly, but we can guess some of the things that they could be fighting about. I mean, there was the first acting commissioner left because of Doge's desire to have access to personal data, everyone's personal data out there, people who have filed taxes, which is tens of millions of Americans. The second acting commissioner left because of the irs MOU or MOU in progress with dhs, that they wanted to get the personal information, as in home addresses and updated information of undocumented immigrants who filed taxes. Then there was the guy who we only remember because of his Hunter Biden affiliation, who lasted for a couple days, and now you have this guy. My point is this. I mean, what is so striking about whatever they may have been fighting about that it was the irs, typically an apolitical agency, that is just responsible for making sure people's taxes are filed, right. That they get their tax returns and things along those lines. That's what they're fighting about. Because Elon Musk has put his little claws into that place because he wants the personal data of people there. I suspect that's one of the reasons. So that would never happen in a typical White House. It would never happen in a West Wing episode. And it's striking because that's what they're fighting about. A place that should be really mainly responsible for delivering in an apolitical way to the American public.

[Rachel Maddow]

Jen, I want to ask you a breaking news story from the Washington Post right now. Adding to the Pete Hegseth story. Washington Post is reporting Hegseth's decision earlier this year to install Signal on a desktop computer in the Pentagon was a workaround that enabled him to use Signal in a classified space where his cell phone and other personal electronics are not permitted and communicate with ease with anyone, other government officials or his family who is outside of the imposing military headquarters. And the administration has put out their version of a denial, which of course is not a denial of what the Washington Post is actually reporting. Washington Post is reporting he installed it. He had it installed on his desktop computer. And the only denial they have put out says is a denial saying he didn't use it. So, and the Post doesn't report that he used it, they report that he installed it on his desktop computer. Again, unthinkable conduct by a secretary of defense.

[Jen Psaki]

Absolutely. And here's why. And I know you've explained this many times as a viewer of your show, and I have too. There is no need for signal. There are so many mechanisms through which any high level national security official can communicate with other high level national security officials. They have SCIFs, as in the places where you can have one of these secure conversations or have a secure computer in their homes. Literally in their homes. When Secretary Hegseth travels, his aides can set up a scif. They often do, just as a standard process, can set up a SCIF wherever they travel. He can say to any aide, I need to have a secure call or have a secure video conference or have a secure conversation. And they can set that up for him. So what this feels like, and we know this from the other chains we're aware of at this point, though I suspect there are many more because nobody on that original chain raised their hand and said, let's not have this conversation over signal. Which is quite a tell. What it tells us is that this is a form of evasion. I don't know how we think of it in any other way, because there are so many ways you can communicate in secure ways about classified information. And the system is set up to enable officials like Hegseth to do exactly that.

[Rachel Maddow]

Jen, this is why your insights are so valuable, especially to me. I never worked in an executive branch where any of these kinds of classified issues ever came up. And so to understand exactly what people don't do as you do is so valuable. But when you see these stories, when you see someone like Hegseth who's obviously just wants things to be convenient, he just likes his personal phone, he just wants to use it. He knows he's not supposed to. They're all told they're not supposed to do that. What do you make of people like a cabinet secretary and others in this kind of administration who just want things to be convenient and simple and not follow the rules?

[Jen Psaki]

I think a lot of it is convenience, but there are things that go beyond that, like sharing details of attack plans on a signal chain with his wife and brother. I mean, I think that's more than convenience. Right. But I will say on the convenience front, Lawrence, I mean There are tens of thousands, more than that, hundreds of thousands of people who work in the military, who work in diplomatic roles across the world, who are in covert operational roles around the world, who are basically every day serving to make us safer, to keep us safer. They're not political people. Most of them are apolitical individuals who just are public servants who've been drawn to the cause of public service. And when you are so flippant about how you share classified information, information it did not in this case, but it could have put at risk people who are in these vulnerable positions, who are serving our country around the world for the military, in covert CIA operations, et cetera. It's just, it's disrespectful to the office you're serving and for the tens of thousands of people that you are representing. And that's what I think is at the root, most disappointing to me.

[Rachel Maddow]

Jen Psaki, this is one of many reasons why I'm going to be watching your show. No one knows best practices in the executive branch better than you do. The briefing premieres Tuesday, May 6th at 9pm Jen Psaki already knows that. Jen, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thank you. It's great to see you. Can't wait to see the show when it starts. Thank you, Jen. And coming up, a judge has accused Donald Trump's Justice Department lawyers of acting in, quote, bad faith in the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who was sent from Maryland to an El Salvador prison by mistake. Our next guest is the only American who has been able to meet with Mr. Abrego Garcia since he has been imprisoned in El Salvador. Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen joins us next.

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[Rachel Maddow]

Facing a 6pm deadline today to explain to a federal judge exactly what the Trump administration has been doing to follow a Supreme Court order to facilitate the return of Kilmar Abrego Garcia from a prison where he was mistakenly sent in El Salvador. One of Donald Trump's Justice Department lawyers, Drew Ensign, filed a motion in the case asking for a delay of the judge's order. And at 8:30pm tonight, the judge, Paula Zenas, paused discovery for seven days. Judge Zenas yesterday accused the Trump Justice Department lawyers in writing of acting in, quote, bad faith. And so six weeks after Mr. Abrego Garcia, a 14 year resident of Maryland, was removed from his car with his five year old autistic son in the back seat and then sent to prison in El Salvador, our next guest, Senator Chris Van Hollen, remains the only person in America who has seen or spoken with Kilmar Abrego Garcia since he was sent to prison. Joining us now is Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland. He's a member of the Appropriations Committee and the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Senator, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I want to get your reaction to the breaking news of the night of another seven day delay in the processes of this case.

[Chris Van Hollen]

Well, Lawrence, it's good to be with you. And this is just one more day where the Trump administration is openly flouting the Supreme Court order to facilitate the return of Abrego Garcia. And as you said, Judge Zinnis yesterday made clear that they were willfully not complying. In other words, they were acting in bad faith. I think what's happening here is she wants, Judge Zinnis wants to give the administration this extra time so that if and when she has to find them in contempt, that she will show the 4th Circuit and mostly the Supreme Court that she has really given them every opportunity. I think that's what's going on because you can tell from her writing just how frustrated she Is as we all should be because there's a man sitting in prison El Salvador, who was wrongfully abducted. And we all know that it's not just about him. Because if the Trump administration can get away with this with Kilmore Abrego Garcia, it threatens the rights of everybody in America. So I wish the judge, you know, I think I understand what she's doing here.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah, being extra solicitous to the side she's going to rule against is something you commonly see in, in federal procedures like this. Senator, when you were there, not yet getting to see Mr. Abrego Garcia that first day you didn't get there, it didn't happen. Were you just living hour to hour in this or were you looking forward in a way that saying to yourself, if I don't see him by a certain time, that's it, I'll go back to Maryland?

[Chris Van Hollen]

Well, I was pushing very much to see him. I mean, it was one week ago today that I left. And before I left, if you recall, President Bukele was, you know, visiting the United States. He was in the White House. And I, I sent the ambassador from El Salvador, the United States a letter then say I wanted to meet with Bukele while he was here in D.C. but if I don't get that chance, I'm going to go to El Salvador. And at that time I was quite determined to find a way to meet with him, but I was blocked. I mean, I met with the vice president, they said no. I drove my car to try to get to Seekot, the soldiers pulled me aside, said no. So we kept at it. I had a press conference with the local press and pointed out that El Salvador was in violation of international law by not allowing his lawyers, his wife, his mother, me, any chance to see him. And so I'm glad that, that in the end all of that paid off because they did relent, as you said.

[Rachel Maddow]

As you were actually sitting there with him and recognize that every day of this, according to the Trump's own lawyer's statement in court, this was a, they call it an administrative error, that this person is there because of an error every single day with two presidents, one of the United States, one of El Salvador, saying absolutely nothing you can do about an error, there's nothing that can be done about an error. What did it feel like to be sitting across from someone in a predicament the likes of which we've literally never seen?

[Chris Van Hollen]

It was really enraging. Right. Because as you say, every second that goes by is another second that this guy was dragged out of the car with his five year old autistic son, denied the chance to talk to his family. And everybody's, you know, like, well, you know, we can take our time about this. No, we cannot take our time about this. And so I was very frustrated and made that clear in my meeting with the, with the Vice President. And even now as we sit here, it is outrageous that the Trump administration has not lifted a finger. Because when I met with the Vice President of El Salvador, he said to me that the ball is in your court, meaning the US Court, the Trump administration's court. So when the Trump administration says, you know, El Salvador is a sovereign country, we're waiting on them, they say they're waiting on us. And by the way, he was very clear, the Vice President, the reason they're holding him is cuz they have a deal with the Trump administration to be paid to hold him. That is the bottom line. They think they've got a contractual obligation. So all the Trump administration has to do is say, hey, you know, we committed this big error. Obviously, it's just changed this person's life in such a terrible way. You know, the contract to pay for him, that doesn't apply. This is simple. And this is why the judge, and I hope ultimately the Supreme Court needs to make sure that they hold the Trump administration in contempt.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator Chris Van Hollen, thank you very much for doing your job. Thank you very much by, for living up to your oath as a United States senator, making that trip the way you did. Thank you very much for joining us.

[Chris Van Hollen]

Tonight and thank you for pointing out to everybody how much is at stake in this one case, that it is all of our rights that are in jeopardy if we let them get away with this.

[Rachel Maddow]

It really is. And that's exactly what Justice Sonia Sotomayor said in writing. Thank you very much, Senator.

[Chris Van Hollen]

Thank you.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you. Coming up, on a day when Donald Trump did more backing down in his trade war with China, the president of Harvard University did not back down in the war. Donald Trump has declared against Harvard. You'll hear what Harvard's President Alan Garber said today about Donald Trump's war on Harvard and all American research universities and what is at stake for the country. That's next. Harvard University is the oldest institution in America, older even than the United States of America itself. But in its 389 years, Harvard University has had fewer presidents than the United States of America has had presidents. Today, the 31st president of Harvard, Alan Garber, discussed what Donald Trump is trying to do to Harvard and other research universities with NBC Nightly News anchor Lester Holt.

[Alan Garber]

What they are indicating is that they want to directly review who we hire on our faculty. That has implications for what kinds of views can be expressed on campus. They also want to be able to tell us who we need to fire. And they also want to intervene in our admissions processes. That is what we are objecting to.

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[Alan Garber]

We are defending what I believe is one of the most important linchpins of the American economy and way of life are universities.

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How much pain can Harvard absorb here?

[Alan Garber]

We don't know how much we can actually absorb. But what we do know is that we cannot compromise on basic principles like defense of our First Amendment rights.

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Is this bigger than Harvard at this point?

[Alan Garber]

Of course it's bigger than Harvard because. Because we look at what's at risk here. And what's at risk is the excellence of higher education in the United States and in particular, the research mission of many of our universities, which play such a vital role in the US Economy and in the health and well being of the American people.

[Rob Lowe]

Is this a fight you can win?

[Alan Garber]

I don't know the answer to this question, but the stakes are so high that we have no choice.

[Rachel Maddow]

We'll be right back. Harvard University's 31st president, Alan Garber, who is a physician and an economist, gets tonight's last word. What is the secret to making great toast?

[Jen Psaki]

Oh, you're just gonna go in with the hard hitting questions.

[Rachel Maddow]

I'm Dan Pashman from the Sporkful. We like to say it's not for foodies, it's for eaters. We use food to learn about culture, history and science. There was the time we looked into allegations of discrimination at Bon Appetit, or when I spent three years inventing a new pasta shape. It's a complex noodle that you've put together every episode of the Sporkful. You're gonna learn something, sing, feel something and laugh. The spork pull from Stitcher. Get it wherever you get your podcasts.