← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Lawrence: Christopher Wray decided to save Donald Trump from putting another lie in writing
00:41:20
Tonight on The Last Word: FBI Director Christopher Wray announces his plan to resign. Also, several Trump picks are facing tough confirmation hearings. And a gun violence vigil marks the 12-year remembrance of the Sandy Hook mass shooting. Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse, Sen. Jon Ossoff, Rep. Maxwell Frost, and Sen. Andy Kim join Lawrence O’Donnell.
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- [00:00]
Lawrence O'Donnell
When living with cancer, it's important to be informed and know what to expect. But finding the right information can feel overwhelming. That's why understandcancertogether.com is here to help. We've gathered practical information and resources based on where you are in your cancer journey so that you can focus on the important conversations and decisions of today. UnderstandCancerTogether.com helping you navigate life with cancer one moment at a time. Discover Hydro, the best kept secret in fitness. Hydro is a state of the art at home rower that engages 86% of your muscles, delivering the ultimate full body workout in just 20 minutes. From advanced to beginner, Hydro has over 5,000 classes shot worldwide and taught by Olympians and world class athletes. For a 30 day risk free trial, go to hydro.com and use code FIT to save up to $800 on a hydro pro rower. That's hyd. Code fit. Now it is time for the Last word with Lawrence O'Donnell.
- [01:04]
Alex Wagner
Good evening, Lawrence. Good evening, Alex. We have a Senate quorum here tonight. We have Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Senator Jon Ossoff, new Senator from New Jersey, Andy Kim, and future Senator Maxwell Frost, who sometime in the next 50 years is going to be elected to the Senate.
- [01:19]
Maxwell Frost
What is it?
- [01:19]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Is it the Tip O'Neill thing? Like how do you get all of these senators that everybody want? I mean like what is it? Do you send them chocolates?
- [01:26]
Alex Wagner
A trick. The trick is going to the studio within walking distance of the Senate here in Washington DC. That's the trick.
- [01:34]
Lawrence O'Donnell
That's where you are. Yeah, that's why you are. You look even better than usual. Okay, now I know.
- [01:40]
Alex Wagner
Have a great show.
- [01:41]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Have a great show.
- [01:42]
Alex Wagner
Thank you, Alex. Thank you. If Kashap Prumod Vinod Patel is confirmed by the Senate as the next FBI director, he will be the first Indian American FBI director. He will be the first FBI director with, with a beard. But he will have two things in common with every FBI director before him. He is a man and he is a Republican. Every single director of the FBI has been a Republican. Every one of them. J. Edgar Hoover created the FBI and corrupted the FBI in his 36 year reign as FBI Director. Hoover's FBI did some good work. But J. Edgar Hoover himself engaged in some of the worst things ever done by an American law enforcement agency. He loved using illegal wiretaps, especially against the Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. Who he put under illegal surveillance for just no reason whatsoever. No legal reason whatsoever. Wiretapped his phone calls and tried to harass Dr. King into committing suicide. Presidents feared what J. Edgar Hoover might try to do to them or their allies. J. Edgar Hoover's legacy is a stain on American law enforcement, but still his name adorns the FBI headquarters building in Washington D.C. l. Patrick Gray, who served as acting FBI director, served for one year of Richard Nixon's criminal activity as president, got ensnared in that criminal activity himself, and left the office of FBI Director as acting FBI Director in disgrace before Richard Nixon was forced to leave the presidency in disgrace. After the Nixon criminal scandals that involved the FBI, Congress took action to depoliticize the job of FBI director by giving the FBI director a 10 year term. That meant that some Presidents might not ever get to appoint an FBI director and some didn't. It was inconceivable in the aftermath of the Nixon scandals that a President would fire an FBI Director for the offense of investigating that president, which is exactly what Donald Trump did when he fired James Comey as FBI director in 2017, thereby becoming the first President in history to fire an FBI Director in the middle of a 10 year term. President Jimmy Carter was the first President to appoint an FBI director to a 10 year term. And of course he chose a Republican William Webster. And I say of course because in those days, the way for a President to prove that a job was above politics was to give that job to someone from the other party. And so no one was surprised by Jimmy Carter's choice of Republican William Webster. But when it came time for Republican Presidents to appoint FBI directors, they too chose Republican FBI directors. Bill Clinton was the next Democratic President after Jimmy Carter to appoint an FBI director and he chose Republican Louis Freeh. Next. George W. Bush chose Robert Mueller, Republican Robert Mueller to serve a full 10 year term. And then President Obama asked Republican Robert Mueller to extend his service in the FBI beyond the 10 years, which actually required an act of Congress to allow Robert Mueller to serve beyond the 10 year limit. Robert Mueller served 12 years as FBI director and then President Obama chose to replace him with Republican James Comey to serve as FBI Director. And James Comey served three years, 247 days before Donald Trump fired him and replaced him with Republican Christopher Wray. President Biden never considered tampering with Chris Wray's 10 year term as FBI director, which was scheduled to end in August of 2027. During this transition period, Donald Trump decided to do something that no President has ever considered doing, which was select someone as the next FBI director and send that person around to Senate offices to meet with Senators to discuss being confirmed for a job that was not vacant or available. The President has the legal right to fire an FBI director for cause. That cause has to be put in writing. The cause that Donald Trump actually used as his reason for firing FBI Director Comey was the way James Comey handled an investigation of Hillary Clinton. The world knew that that was a lie. The world knew Donald Trump loved the way James Comey investigated Hillary Clinton and made huge news about that investigation in the weeks and days leading up to the 2016 presidential election. Today, FBI Director Christopher Wray, who was appointed by Donald Trump seven and a half years ago, announced in a worldwide meeting with FBI agents that he would make it easy for Donald Trump. Christopher Wray decided to save Donald Trump from having to put another lie in writing about why he was firing another FBI director. The FBI released a full transcript of what Christopher Wray said, and the FBI released just a partial video of some of what the Director said. Director Wray told the FBI today, quote, I want to address a topic that's been the subject of a lot of speculation, and that's my future as FBI Director. Since the moment I started in this job seven plus years ago, my focus has been on trying to do what I think is best for our institution, for the Bureau and ultimately for the American people we serve, and what sets us up best for success, not just today, but in the long run. And then Director Wray said this, after weeks of careful thought, I've decided the right thing for the Bureau is for me to serve until the end of the current administration in January and then step down. My goal is to keep the focus on our mission, on the indispensable work each of you is doing every single day. And in my view, this is the best way to avoid dragging the Bureau deeper into the fray while reinforcing the values and principles that are so important in how we do our work. Now, I should go without saying, but I'm going to go ahead and say it anyways. This is not easy for me. I love this place. I love our mission and I love our people, but my focus is and always has been on us and on doing what's right for the FBI. Christopher Wray also told his FBI audience, quote, it was important to me that you all got to hear about my decision directly from me before it gets announced. Publicly, Director Wray praised the 38,000 people working at the FBI around the world and specified some of the horrors that FBI intelligence work has prevented. Quote, every day I've been in this role, my deep admiration and respect for all of you has grown more and more. I've seen up close the sacrifices you make each and every day to fulfill our mission and keep our fellow citizens safe. I've seen you turn in absolutely heroic acts of bravery over and over again to help people you've never met. And I've seen you show up for each other with compassion and support when your FBI family members need you most. And you've kept watch against the ever present threat of terrorism. Thwarting attacks on a busy pier in San Francisco, a crowded hospital outside Kansas City, during COVID a fourth of July parade in downtown Cleveland, to name just a few. And just two months ago disrupting a mass casualty plot in Oklahoma City set for election Day. Donald Trump's choice to lead the FBI wants to eliminate the intelligence division of the FBI that stopped every one of those terrorist plots. The FBI's footprint has gotten so frickin.
- [10:48]
Andrew Kim
Big and the biggest problem the FBI.
- [10:50]
Alex Wagner
Has had has come out of its intel shops. I'd break that component out of it. I'd shut down the FBI Hoover Building on day one and reopening the next day as a museum of the deep state. He of course, won't dare say any of those words in his Senate confirmation hearing, but that was just months ago. For decades, law enforcement agencies around the world have looked to the FBI for guidance, assistance and training. The FBI director said today, it's all of us working together that have made the FBI the premier law enforcement and intelligence agency in the world. The people our partners are vying to send their officers and deputies to train with. The people businesses call when their networks have been compromised or their operations have been taken offline. The people the American people turn to when their child is in danger. The world is not going to turn to Cash Patel. Director Wray did not directly address the lies told about him and the FBI by Donald Trump, the man who appointed him. But he did say this, quote, we're on the American people's side, the Constitution's side, and no matter what's happening out there in here, we've got to stay committed to doing our work the right way, every time, with rigor and integrity. That means following the facts wherever they lead, no matter who likes it or doesn't, because there's always someone who doesn't like it. It means conducting investigations without fear or favor, and it means not pursuing investigations when the predication is not there. Now, let me be clear. We're accountable to the American people and we welcome the tough questions. But in terms of how we do the work. We've got to maintain our independence and objectivity. Staying above partisanship and politics. That is something Cache Patel could never say. Cash Patel has promised to not stay above partisanship and politics. Christopher A. Closed his remarks to the FBI today. This Remember that you chose and earned this job. You chose and earned the privilege of serving your country. The FBI needs you. The American people need you. So thank you for making that choice. Thank you for earning that privilege. Leading off our discussion tonight is Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat of Rhode Island. He's a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee and he chairs the subcommittee on Federal Courts. He's also a member of the Senate Finance Committee and is the chair of the Senate Budget Committee. Begins his fourth term in the United States Senate next month. Senator Whitehouse, the contrast we see there between what Christopher Wray had to say and what Cache Patel had to say. In that same collection of comments, Cash Patel is saying he wants to destroy the intelligence division of the FBI, the people who are preventing the next 9 11.
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Sheldon Whitehouse
In fact, the intelligence division operation of the FBI was set up to remedy the problem of the firewall between the intelligence community and domestic law enforcement. And one of the signal achieved, set.
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Alex Wagner
Up by a Republican administration, George W. Bush.
- [14:13]
Sheldon Whitehouse
Yeah. And one of the signal achievements that has helped kept us safe has been to have that cooperation between the FBI and the domestic side and the intelligence community that is providing intel to the FBI and supporting it back and forth. So the idea that you would take down the domestic component of that makes no sense at all.
- [14:32]
Alex Wagner
You're a former U.S. attorney, federal prosecutor, working with FBI every day in everything you were doing as a U.S. attorney. From that perspective, talk about what someone like Cash Patel would mean in that job.
- [14:48]
Sheldon Whitehouse
Well, what you would like to avoid is, for instance, an FBI director who would use his law enforcement powers to harass and punish members of your profession, members of the media, for investigating, say, for instance, corruption in the Trump administration and exposing it. We don't have to think that that's a problem with Cash Patel. He has told us that that's a problem, that he will, in fact use the powers of the FBI to punish members of the media. You would like to avoid an FBI director who comes in with a prefabricated list of people he wants to get for reasons of vengeance. And we don't have to have that worry about Cash Patel because we know he intends to do that. He has said so. He has an enemies list that he has published of people who would like, he'd like to go after names like Hillary Clinton. Yeah, yeah. And some very minor people who are perfectly nice and normal folks who really don't need that kind of, you know, Hillary Clinton can stand up on her own two feet. She's a serious figure. Some of the lesser known people are the ones who are even more vulnerable to that kind of fear. So Ray used an important word in there. He used the word predication. He used that on purpose. Predication, as you know, is what prevents the FBI from going out and investigating somebody willy nilly, just because somebody doesn't like them. You can't open an FBI investigation unless there is predication that a crime has been committed and that there's reason to consider this person as a legitimate suspect. So when he uses the word predication in that statement, he is making a point. And it's a point that I don't think Cash Patel understands.
- [16:54]
Alex Wagner
His confirmation is by no means certain at this point.
- [16:56]
Sheldon Whitehouse
By no means certain.
- [16:57]
Alex Wagner
There have not been 51 Republicans step forward and say, we 51 are voting for his confirmation. But if he gets there, let's talk about what we might discover that we thought were solid walls that turn out to be just traditions or niceties. Let's talk about predication, for example. I mean, I've been telling people they can't just investigate anyone. They're not allowed to do that. What if the FBI director orders an investigation without any predication whatsoever? Just a name here, go investigate that person. He's asked. What's the predication? Just go investigate that person who gets in trouble for what, if anything, in this new Trump version of the FBI.
- [17:41]
Sheldon Whitehouse
It's hard to know because the FBI has never been, at least not in recent years, put through that stress test before, when the last really bad act that I can think of out of the FBI was Director Comey breaking the rules of the Department of Justice and the FBI to make himself look grand and independent and morally superior by pledging to pursue Hillary Clinton.
- [18:12]
Alex Wagner
But his breaking of precedent was simply the public comment.
- [18:17]
Sheldon Whitehouse
Exactly.
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Alex Wagner
Not the actual conduct of the investigation.
- [18:19]
Sheldon Whitehouse
Precisely.
- [18:20]
Alex Wagner
Just the public comment.
- [18:21]
Sheldon Whitehouse
It was cabined to his own actions. It's a different thing when you start directing your improper purposes.
- [18:28]
Alex Wagner
He didn't want anyone to make that comment.
- [18:30]
Sheldon Whitehouse
He made it.
- [18:30]
Alex Wagner
He did it. Yeah.
- [18:31]
Sheldon Whitehouse
It's a different thing when you're trying to get agents to do that. And I think the other thing that you saw Chris Wray saying towards the end in that statement was he's trying to revive and empower the esprit de corps of the FBI agents to build resistance from the internal operating FBI staff against the abuse of the institution to which they have dedicated their lives.
- [19:00]
Alex Wagner
You know, I saw that word predication and I noted it, but I didn't triple underline it the way you have. It's so important for us that you do that. And certainly all 38,000 people who heard that word in that sentence heard it the way you heard it. As someone who has worked in FBI investigations.
- [19:18]
Sheldon Whitehouse
The sad part about this is that what Director Wray has done is to set a precedent that upon a new president coming in, the FBI director departs. And that breaks an institutional tradition of these 10 year terms. That wasn't just convenience. It wasn't just so, you know, you've got a 10 year job. It was to disconnect the role of the FBI director from politics and from the sequence of political elections. It had that specific purpose. And for Wray to simply step back and let that go, I think important damage to an important principle.
- [20:09]
Alex Wagner
Let me take a guess at what he would say in response to that. It's not gone as long as the next president doesn't threaten an FBI director.
- [20:21]
Sheldon Whitehouse
Yes, but is this going to be the last president who can make threats to an FBI director and clear the decks? Perhaps. Trump's kind of an anomaly in a lot of different ways, particularly morally. But the point of principles is that they're there to protect the public. And in this case, I think Ray let us down by stepping away and moving this timeframe into the sequence of presidential elections.
- [20:53]
Alex Wagner
You believe he should have waited to be fired?
- [20:55]
Sheldon Whitehouse
I think he should have made him make that choice. Make him own it.
- [20:58]
Alex Wagner
Put it in writing.
- [20:59]
Sheldon Whitehouse
And put it in writing.
- [21:00]
Alex Wagner
Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, thank you so much for starting off our discussion.
- [21:03]
Sheldon Whitehouse
Good to be with you.
- [21:05]
Alex Wagner
And coming up, our next guest has led Senate oversight investigations of the federal prison system and other government operations. Such investigations will be all the more important during the next four years. Senator John Ossoff is also a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee with jurisdiction over the Justice Department and the FBI. And he will have questions for Cash Patel in that confirmation hearing. Senator John Ossoff will join us next.
- [21:32]
Lawrence O'Donnell
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- [22:53]
Alex Wagner
Senator Jon Ossoff of Georgia will be running for reelection two years from now, and Donald Trump is hoping that Senator Ossoff will be running against Marjorie Taylor Greene, Donald Trump's favored candidate for Senate in Georgia. Joining our discussion now is another member of the Senate Judiciary Committee who will be asking questions during Cache Patel's confirmation hearing for FBI Director. Senator Jon Ossoff is also a member of the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, where he recently won the Carl Levitt Award for Effective Over. The award is named after former Michigan Senator Carl Levin. Joining us now, Democrat Senator Jon Ossoff of Georgia. Can I just begin with the possibility of you running against Marjorie Taylor Greene if Donald Trump gets his way two years from now? It seems like she would she have any struggle getting the Republican nomination in Georgia?
- [23:44]
Jon Ossoff
Well, former President Trump has said that he would, quote, fight like hell for.
- [23:49]
Alex Wagner
Marjorie Taylor Greene if she wants it.
- [23:53]
Jon Ossoff
She would have his support. And I guess I know a lot of folks are wringing their hands trying to figure out what to do to make sense of the election. I'll just get right to it since you raised Marjorie Taylor Greene, America, if you believe that Marjorie Taylor Greene should never be a United states senator, it's electjohn.com electjon.com Marjorie Taylor Greene in the U.S. senate would be a disaster for the country.
- [24:17]
Alex Wagner
I think that's a pretty easy message to deliver, even for Republicans who have separated themselves from people like Marjorie Taylor Greene. But Donald Trump, Trump wants Marjorie Taylor Greene asking questions in Senate confirmation hearings instead of you. It would be his dream come true to have her in the Cache Patel confirmation hearing For FBI director, you know.
- [24:40]
Jon Ossoff
Congresswoman Green represents a extremely divisive, zealous, partisan maga brand of politics that I think would be an electoral problem for her in Georgia. But with the former president's support in a primary, she may very well be the general election candidate.
- [25:03]
Alex Wagner
How are you going to approach this confirmation process where you're going to be you're overwhelmed with nominees who have not been vetted and may very well show up at the committee inadequately vetted?
- [25:16]
Jon Ossoff
Well, I'm going to insist on rigorous vetting. The Senate has to perform its constitutional obligation of providing advice and consent. And look, I'm going to give nominees a fair shake. I'm going to consider them with an open mind. I'm going to meet with them and I'm going to insist that we've done our due diligence. I hope that there will be some nominees who meet the standard in terms of credibility, integrity, track record, qualification, and who, most importantly for me, will help me deliver for my home state of Georgia. So I'll approach with an open mind. But it's also going to require us to be vigilant and once the cabinet is confirmed, to conduct vigorous oversight.
- [25:52]
Alex Wagner
Chuck Schumer, for example, has already made positive comments about one of Donald Trump's nominees for economic policy. But the problems with this FBI director nomination, the Secretary of defense, Pete Hegseth, these are problems we've never before seen in confirmation hearings.
- [26:11]
Jon Ossoff
Well, I think it's an open question whether some of these nominees are going to pass muster even with the bare majority of Republican senators. So we will see who winds up advancing to confirmation hearings at all.
- [26:23]
Alex Wagner
So as you go forward beyond confirmation, oversight is going to be a different process. When you're in the minority, what powers do you retain in the minority in the Senate to continue to conduct oversight?
- [26:38]
Jon Ossoff
Oversight and investigations have been my focus since I was elected and many of your audience members have followed me through my career. They know that before I ran for office, I investigated war crimes and public corruption. And my approach in the Senate has been to conduct hard hitting investigations, for example, of corruption and civil rights abuses in our federal prison system, which have led to the passage of major bipartisan legislation. So we're going to have to be vigilant and vigorous in conducting oversight of the incoming administration. I also hope that there will be continued opportunities to conduct bipartisan investigations of corruption in the federal government, of human rights abuses, sustain this focus on the human rights crisis behind bars in America, and pursue investigations in the public interest.
- [27:23]
Alex Wagner
So my guess about the cash Patel confirmation hearing is when you or another senator reads to him or plays the video of him saying he wants to abolish the intelligence division of the FBI and close down the FBI headquarters, that he will somehow completely change his testimony about that and somehow try to won't be able to deny he said it when it's on video, but he'll say, I didn't mean that. In effect, how will you handle witnesses? And he won't be the only witness like that who in effect disavows things he's already said.
- [28:01]
Jon Ossoff
Well, I'm going to hold every nominee to the same standard. I would hold nominees for a president of my own party, which is are they qualified? Will they approach the job with integrity? Will, particularly in the case of positions in the Justice Department, will they approach justice in a nonpartisan way? Will they be fair? Will they uphold the rule of law? Those are the kinds of questions that nominees for DOJ positions or any other positions will have to answer.
- [28:27]
Alex Wagner
So someone who has said very convincingly in a public forum that he would eliminate the intelligence division of the FBI, is that someone who can be put in charge of the FBI?
- [28:39]
Jon Ossoff
I'm not sure that some of these nominees, for example, Mr. Patel, are going to be able to clear, as I said, even a majority of Republican senators. So we're going to have to see if we even get to that.
- [28:49]
Alex Wagner
He absolutely doesn't have 51 votes in the Senate as of tonight. There's no question that he doesn't.
- [28:55]
Jon Ossoff
I think that a number of These nominees, as Mr. Gaetz did, may run into trouble between now and inauguration. We will see ultimately who comes before the Senate. I'm going to consider folks with an open mind and also ask tough questions.
- [29:09]
Alex Wagner
Senator Jon Ossoff, thank you very much for joining us tonight. And in the campaign, reelection campaign against Marjorie Taylor Greene, we would be very interested in what you have to say when you come back here.
- [29:19]
Jon Ossoff
It'll be interesting.
- [29:20]
Alex Wagner
Thank you, Senator.
- [29:21]
Jon Ossoff
Thank you.
- [29:22]
Alex Wagner
And coming up, the youngest member of the House of Representatives, Maxwell Frost is a member of the school shooting generation. It was a school shooting that got him first activated politically as a teenager. Maxwell Frost participated in a vigil tonight for one of the most horrific school shootings in our history. Congressman Maxwell Frost joins us next. Tonight a vigil was held here in Washington, D.C. to mark the 12th year anniversary of the deadliest mass shooting in an American elementary school in which 20 children and six educators were murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut. Here is what Congressman Maxwell Frost, who will join us in A moment said at the vigil tonight, it was this.
- [30:11]
Maxwell Frost
Event 12 years ago that gave me my call to action. I went to an arts middle school in high school. I wanted to be a musician. But it was after seeing the images of the kids being marched out of their school in Sandy Hook, Connecticut, that I felt something in me. And I want to empower you with this because a lot of times those who are against what we're trying to do will cite the Constitution or the founding documents of this country. But I read in those founding documents that we are all entitled to life, to liberty, to the pursuit of happiness. So when they come and tell us why do you want us to ignore the Second Amendment? I say, I just want you to read the Second Amendment. When they come and tell us why are you fighting against the founding documents? Know that our fight to make sure that the leading cause of death for children and teens isn't guns. It is already written that this should not be the reality that we have. We are not here to rewrite history or rewrite these documents. It says it is already written that we will be successful in what we're fighting for.
- [31:26]
Alex Wagner
Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Maxwell Frost of Florida. He's a member of the House Oversight Committee. And Congressman, I just learned something about you in that when you said that you really aspired to music and you went in this other direction. And so in that sense, this school shooting horror took your dream away. It took your dream away and it sent you in another direction. We all marvel and admire what you've achieved coming in this direction without knowing that, well, a dream was lost on the way.
- [32:01]
Maxwell Frost
Yeah, I mean, and I always make the joke that I always want to be a musician. Then something wrong happened to me and I got into politics and it's always a little laugh, but it's also serious. I mean, I wanted to be an artist. I went to an arts high school, Osceola County School for the Arts in Orlando, and I wanted to play jazz. I wanted to go to school for jazz drumming. But seeing those images hit me so hard. And it physically interrupted the concert that night because I had that anxiety that at the time was very unique. A lot of my friends weren't feeling that. But fast forward 10 years, it's anything but unique. I remember having an elementary school for my district up here at the Capitol. I was really excited. I asked them, if you were a congressperson, what bill would you pass? Thinking they'd say dessert for dinner and no homework. And I picked up a seven year old girl and she said, I'd ban assault weapons so I don't get shot in school. So this is now something that's front of mind for kids. And a lot of dreams are being changed because people are being shot, people are dying, and because people are scared. A lot of times people are putting this work, not because they want to be in it, but out of survival.
- [33:07]
Alex Wagner
And Donald Trump wants to put in charge of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Blake Masters, who is in the business of making these guns, these kinds of ghost guns that were used in that assassination of that health insurance executive in New York.
- [33:26]
Maxwell Frost
Yep. And he actually brags about making these ghost guns in his garage. These are guns that kill people on a daily basis. This is something that ATF now, under Joe Biden, has been fighting. They've been prosecuting more people. They've been prosecuting people who are arms dealers in the secondary market, in the black market. And we've actually seen gun violence go down in this country because our president and the Congress last. Congress passed the bipartisan Safer Communities Act. So now we have somebody who probably doesn't believe in the fundamental mission of atf. And I actually just learned at this vigil from our current ATF director that about a year ago, they created a wall in the ATF building to memorialize victims of gun violence. And my hope is this next director won't take that down because he's gonna need that reminder every time he walks in that building. This isn't a game.
- [34:17]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. You know, you came to my attention during your first campaign when David Hogg called me up and said, listen, there's this candidate, you know, and he'sand. So I believe this program was your first national television program arranged and booked by David Ho, who also got into activism because he was a survivor of the mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School. And is there an alliance out there of you graduates of that horrible era that continues of school shootings?
- [34:54]
Maxwell Frost
There is. And I actually meet new people almost every week who have told me it was March for our Lives or it was Sandy Hook. It was this, it was that. That got me involved. And now I'm involved in politics, and I think we're gonna continue to see it year after year. I'm oftentimes asked, you know, did March for our Lives do anything? Well, yeah. I mean, just look at the fact that we have that bipartisan Safer Communities Act. But the thing with social movements is we don't always see all the fruits of that work. Right away, there are going to be Future members of Congress, future presidents, future senators, future people in state legislators, legislatures, where when you ask them why did you get involved in this, they're going to say, because I didn't want to get shot. And so we'll continue to do this work. But there is a lot of young people across this country who have run for office in one and I think we'll see more.
- [35:38]
Alex Wagner
What is your approach to the next two years in Congress under a Trump administration? And I say two years because there's a very strong possibility that two years from now you will be in the majority in the House of Representatives with Speaker Hakeem Jeffries. And at that point your approach can change.
- [35:55]
Maxwell Frost
Exactly. Right now, I think we're really have to lean into our ability to provide oversight over the administration. I sit on the House Oversight Committee and I think we're gonna have a big job in hosting hearings. Yes, on Capitol Hill, but also around the country. We need to take this show on the road and show the American people what's going on. You have a president who lied to people and said he was gonna fight for working class families, but yet he's amassed the richest cabinet in the history of our country. So you expect him to believe that someone like Elon Musk, who's worth over $340 billion is gonna be in charge of helping to decide what my mom's Social Security check is gonna be. And so I think we really need to take this on the road to show people and it's gonna help us, of course, take the house back.
- [36:38]
Alex Wagner
Do you have an instrument in your congressional office so you can play some music to decompress from?
- [36:44]
Maxwell Frost
Have a record player because my dad is a big record collector. If I added an instrument, I think some of my neighbors in the Capitol, they might not like that because I'm a drummer. So it's a pretty loud instrument.
- [36:54]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, that would not be welcome. That would not be welcome. Cars from Maxwell Frost. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. Coming up, another new senator joins us tonight for his first interview since becoming sworn in to the United States Senate. This week, New Jersey's newest senator, Andy Kim joins us next.
- [37:16]
Lawrence O'Donnell
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- [38:51]
Alex Wagner
Andy Kim won his first elective office in 2018 in a campaign for the House of Representatives. He was part of that blue wave of newly elected Democrats in the House who restored Nancy Pelosi to the speakership, which then positioned Speaker Pelosi to be leading opponent of Donald Trump's presidential agenda at that time. Andy Kim was reelected to the House of Representatives for the representing the 3rd New Jersey congressional district in 2020, and he was in the House chamber on January 6, 2021 when a Trump mob followed Donald Trump's order to go to the Capitol and fight like hell. The next day, in a photo that went viral and was seen around the world, Congressman Andy Kim personally went to work cleaning up the damage done to the Capitol by the Trump mob in his campaign for Senate in New Jersey this year. Andy Kim easily won the Democratic nomination in the primary election and went on to a decisive victory in the November election with 54% of the vote to the Republican candidates, 44%. New Jersey's Governor Phil Murphy appointed George Helmy in September to replace Bob Menendez in the Senate after Senator Menendez resigned when a federal jury found him guilty on bribery charges. On Sunday, the appointed Senator Helmi resigned so that New Jersey's governor could then appoint Andy Kim to serve out the remaining weeks of the Menendez Senate term. That will give Andy Kim a seniority advantage over all of the newly elected senators who will not be sworn in until January 3rd. And joining us now, the first Korean American to serve in the United States Senate, New Jersey's Junior Senator Andrew Kim. Thank you very much for joining us tonight in your first appearance as a senator. Maxwell Frost just made the point when you intersected here that you're not moving up from the House, you're moving across to the Senate. House members very sensitive about that. But what changes for you now in your representation now that you are a senator representing the entire state of New Jersey?
- [41:11]
Andrew Kim
Well, I can feel the difference. You know, certainly representing 9 million people as opposed to 780,000. You know, so many of the problems that we face in New Jersey, they don't just stop at the boundaries of congressional districts. You know, being able to see the full diversity of our state, you know, that's certainly something. But also, you know, having a six year term, being able to think through, I can feel myself starting to, you know, be able to just think through a broader vision for what I want to get done or what do I want to focus on. And that excites me, you know, excites me about that kind of agenda. Clearly, a lot of challenges we have with the Trump administration, but the fact that I don't have to run for reelection through his whole second, second term allows me to just focus completely on doing the work and trying to make sure we can keep our country on track.
- [41:58]
Alex Wagner
You've taken over the committee assignments that were there for Senator Menendez, but we don't know what committee assignments you'll have next year when it'll really matter, and then that'll determine which confirmation hearings you're participating in next year. But what are you seeing so far in what is promising to be the strangest confirmation season we've ever seen? If some of these nominations get through the committee, they will be on the Senate floor where every senator will be voting on them.
- [42:26]
Andrew Kim
Well, we certainly see a slew of nominees that are loyalists or people who are picked because they are willing to do anything for Donald Trump. And I think we see a difference here. I mean, I think oftentimes when a president goes through two consecutive terms, you know, there's sometimes a fatigue that sets in or, you know, sort of they've gone through a number of different nominees for different positions. But, but for Trump to come back in some ways with a fresh start, I see a lot of intensity with how they're approaching this and they're coming back with real vendetta here. And you have a number of nominees who are literally, their mission is to try to dismantle the organization that they are now being nominated to be in charge of. And I find that to be just so dangerous at this moment.
- [43:16]
Alex Wagner
Right. You have experience in national security and intelligence in your previous work prior to, to running for Congress. What do you make of a potential FBI director who says he wants to destroy and eliminate the intelligence division of the FBI?
- [43:30]
Andrew Kim
Well, you know, that's something that I was alluding to just now. You have somebody in, Mr. Patel, who has talked about the FBI as a deep state, talked about it as, you know, just, you know, it very much harkens Trump's language of the enemy within. And as someone who's, you know, I worked as a career public servant. I worked under both the Bush administration and the Obama administration. Our oath is to serve a country, not a president, not a party. And I just find that language to be so dangerous, so devastating. And what kind of message does this send? I personally believe that what's gonna help us get out of this moment and try to heal this country is we need a new era of public service. And I believe we need a new ask not what this country can do for you kind of moment. But. But what we see from Mr. Patel and others is absolutely the wrong direction. It's actually trying to scare people away from public service, trying to tell people, don't get into this because it's so toxic. You're going to have people coming after you and attacking you in that type of way. And that's why I think it's so important that we stand up for public service. We say that it's an honorable thing that the people there, working career capacities, they are the steady hand at the wheel that tries to prevent our country from going off track from the pendulum swings of our partisanship. So that's something that I feel very strongly as a former career public servant to try to protect.
- [44:56]
Alex Wagner
Senator Andrew Kim, thank you very much for joining us tonight in your first appearance here as a senator. Really appreciate it.
- [45:03]
Andrew Kim
Thanks so much for having me.
- [45:04]
Alex Wagner
We'll be right back. Senator Andrew Kim of New Jersey gets tonight's last word.
- [45:12]
Lawrence O'Donnell
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