Lawrence: Did Trump 'czar' Tom Homan take $50,000 from the FBI? JD Vance's answer is, 'I don't know'

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Episode Title: “Did Trump 'czar' Tom Homan take $50,000 from the FBI? JD Vance's answer is, 'I don't know'”
Air Date: October 14, 2025
Host: Lawrence O’Donnell (MSNBC)
Special Guests: Rachel Maddow, Daniel Goldman, Ben Rhodes

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on two major political stories of the day:

1. The evolving scandal over former Trump administration immigration "czar" Tom Homan, including allegations of him accepting a $50,000 payment from the FBI—and the White House’s messy defensive response through Vice President J.D. Vance.
2. The release of the final hostages from Gaza after years of conflict, reflecting on the negotiation process, the significance of the recent ceasefire, and broader implications for U.S. and global politics.

The show also features a significant segment with Rachel Maddow, who discusses her new documentary about civil rights leader Andrew Young, exploring the roots of sustained, disciplined activism.

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Key Discussion Points & Timestamps

1. Trump’s January 6th Delusions & Mental Fitness

[02:03–05:46]

• O'Donnell critiques Donald Trump's recent social media claims that the January 6th Capitol riot happened on Biden’s watch, calling it a "self-administered dementia test."
• Trump alleges "the Biden FBI placed 274 agents into the crowd on January 6th," to which O’Donnell sharply rebuts that Biden was not president at the time.
• O’Donnell underscores the lack of media outcry compared to how Biden would be treated if he made such an error.
• Notable Quote:
  • “Donald Trump no longer remembers that he was President on January 6th and actually no longer remembers that he didn't tell the FBI what to do that day.” – Lawrence O’Donnell [04:08]

[05:46–06:16]

• Daniel Goldman (NY Congressman) echoes mental health concerns about Trump, implying his inner circle enables his issues for their benefit.
• Quote:
  • “I do think he needs mental health help, and I don't think anybody around him that works for him is going to do that because they're benefiting from his failure of mental health, his dementia.” – Daniel Goldman [05:46]

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2. Hostage Releases and the New Ceasefire in Gaza

[06:16–08:41] & [41:59–45:39]

• O’Donnell reads President Biden’s statement expressing relief at the final release of 20 hostages by Hamas, applauding the extensive U.S. diplomatic efforts that spanned both the Biden and Trump administrations.
• The significance of the ceasefire, Israeli/Palestinian prisoner exchanges, and questions of future regional stability are discussed.
• Guest Ben Rhodes offers analysis on the challenges ahead: rebuilding Gaza, possible change in governance, and the influence of regional powers.
• Quotes:
  • “My administration worked relentlessly to bring hostages home, get relief to Palestinian civilians, and end the war.” – Joe Biden, read by Lawrence O’Donnell [06:16]
  • “It’s a great day for the people who released Israelis and Palestinians. But it’s not as joyful in some ways as Trump was projecting because there’s been so much suffering, so much death and destruction, and now so much work that lies ahead.” – Ben Rhodes [42:34]

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3. The Tom Homan FBI Bribery Allegation & White House Response

[11:59–17:00, 19:03–23:41]

• Background: Tom Homan, Trump’s “border czar,” is captured on FBI video allegedly accepting $50,000 in cash. There has been no prosecution.
• Vice President JD Vance, in interviews with George Stephanopoulos, delivers a shifting defense—initially denying wrongdoing, then claiming no knowledge of the payment, and finally questioning the premise entirely.
• O’Donnell and Daniel Goldman analyze these evasions and the notion of a “two-tier system of justice” under the current DOJ.
• Interview Highlights:
  • Stephanopoulos presses Vance repeatedly: “Did he accept $50,000 or not?” [14:08]
  • Vance’s confused response: “I’m not even sure I understand the question... Did he accept $50,000? Honestly, George, I don’t know the answer to that question.” [14:32]
  • O’Donnell analysis: “So there’s your answer. I don’t know. Did he accept $50,000? There are three possibilities. Yes, no, and I don’t know. And JD Vance just picked ‘I don’t know.’” [14:59]
  • Goldman: “There is so clearly a two-tier system of justice. When it’s Tom Homan... they’ll literally close an investigation where the guy took $50,000 in cash.” [19:32]
  • Discussion on ICE’s focus: “70% of those who have been detained by immigration ICE agents do not have a criminal record at all.” – Daniel Goldman [22:00]
• The segment draws a sharp line between aggressive investigations of political adversaries and the apparent shielding of Trump allies.

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4. Health Care Policy & Republican Rhetoric

[08:41–11:48]

• The show critiques Republican positions on healthcare, highlighting language shifts regarding “waste and fraud,” defending insurance companies, and historic misrepresentations about social programs like Medicare.
• O’Donnell references past Republican lies, from Ronald Reagan’s Medicare opposition to “death panel” myths during Obama’s presidency.
• Notable Quote:
  • “Republicans are clearly now running scared about having shut down the government because they refuse to continue the Democratic policy of helping people afford health insurance.” – Lawrence O’Donnell [09:02]
  • “He was correct and she was constantly lying about death panels.” – Lawrence O’Donnell [11:48]

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5. Rachel Maddow’s Andrew Young Documentary: “The Dirty Work”

[25:15–38:56]

• Maddow details her new MSNBC documentary on Andrew Young, weaving his life as a civil rights leader, congressman, and U.N. Ambassador.
• Discussion covers lessons from Young’s strategic approach to activism, crossing divides, and enduring threats for the movement.
• Clips from the film included, focusing on Young’s Congressional experience (e.g., leveraging the steam room for bipartisan connections), and his courageous work in apartheid-era Africa.
• Quotes:
  • Young (film clip): “Because the smartest members in the Congress gather around the speaker in the steam room. I’d get there just a little before the wrap up in my robe and pretend to be sleep. Nobody paid any attention to me, but they got to know me. And after a while I got included in the conversations.” [33:38]
  • Maddow: “Thinking about the dirty work... shoe leather work is much more representative of the kind of work it takes to build a successful movement than just the figureheads who we remember, than just the leaders who we lionize.” [29:51]
  • Maddow on Young’s resilience: “There are some of those people who we have to learn in books and in podcasts and movies, and there’s some of those people who we can still talk to. And Andy Young is one of those men.” [39:42]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• O’Donnell on Trump’s January 6th delusion:
  “Donald Trump hallucinated in the middle of the night Saturday that he was not president on January 6th and that Joe Biden was. And that hallucination, public hallucination, has come and gone without comment from the news media...” [04:22]
• Stephanopoulos-Vance exchange on Tom Homan:
  • “Did he accept $50,000? Honestly, George, I don’t know the answer to that question.” – J.D. Vance [14:32]
  • “You’re insinuating criminal wrongdoing against a guy who has done nothing wrong...let’s talk about the real issues, George.” – J.D. Vance [16:37]
  • “It’s not a weird left wing rabbit hole. I didn’t insinuate anything. I asked you whether Tom Homan accepted $50,000...” – George Stephanopoulos [17:00]
• Andrew Young (via documentary):
  “I’d get there just a little before the wrap up in my robe and pretend to be sleep. Nobody paid any attention to me, but they got to know me. And after a while I got included in the conversations.” [33:38]
• Rachel Maddow on movement work:
  “Andrew Young is a giant of American history and a giant of the civil rights movement. His story isn’t that well known because he hasn’t wanted it to be that well known. But when he told us that he would talk about himself in really personal terms, kind of for the first time, we knew that we had to make the [film].” [31:48]

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Important Segment Timestamps

| Start | Topic | |------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:03 | Trump’s January 6th delusions, mental fitness questioned | | 05:46 | Daniel Goldman on Trump’s mental health | | 06:16 | Biden statement on hostage release/Gaza ceasefire | | 08:41 | Health care debate: Republican rhetoric and history | | 11:59 | J.D. Vance defends Tom Homan—interviews with Stephanopoulos | | 14:59 | O’Donnell on White House defense: “I don’t know” | | 17:18 | Daniel Goldman’s analysis of Homan case and DOJ double standard | | 22:00 | ICE arrest stats—focus on non-criminals under Homan | | 25:15 | Rachel Maddow presents Andrew Young documentary | | 33:38 | Young’s Congressional steam room story (docu. clip) | | 39:42 | Final thoughts on Young’s legacy and Maddow’s documentary | | 41:59 | Ben Rhodes on final Gaza hostages, regional politics |

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Flow and Takeaways

• The episode is sharply critical of the former Trump administration’s conduct on both the January 6th attack and current scandals, like the Tom Homan cash acceptance. It highlights evasions and inconsistencies in the current White House’s defense, especially through the vice president.
• It contextualizes the Gaza ceasefire and the hostage deal as a product of sustained American diplomacy, with detailed look ahead at the regional challenges.
• Maddow’s documentary on Andrew Young is cast as not only important history, but a lesson in strategic, sustained, and humble activism for modern times.
• The tone is incisive, occasionally darkly humorous, and always pointedly political—matching the signature style of O’Donnell and his guests.

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For listeners:
If you want a direct, opinionated, and detailed rundown of the day’s most contentious political stories, along with a dose of inspiration from civil rights history, this episode encapsulates both the fire and the lessons of the current American moment.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[J.D. Vance]

Because there's always something new.

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Rachel Maddow]

Now it's time for the Last Word with the great Lawrence o'.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Donnell.

[Rachel Maddow]

Good evening, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Good evening, Rachel. I got news for you. You're gonna be back sooner than that. Cause I just checked my guest list for tonight's program and you're on it.

[Rachel Maddow]

And I just figured out what studio that you're in and you're very close to me. So I'm going to be there on time.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, you run down that thing there and then you're in here and then you're right here. We have a chair for you right here because, because I just saw that first clip of the Andrew Young documentary during youg Hour and first of all, it answered my first question, which is still gonna be my first question, but I really need to talk to you about this. It's such an important documentary at an important moment. And the lesson as you framed it in your program tonight about we need models of how to engage in long term, serious struggle, committed struggle, real struggle. And boy, the life of Andrew Young is certainly that.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah, I, I'm glad you think that. I'm looking forward to talking to you about it. I will let you start your show and I'll be with you in a moment.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Okay, we'll see you soon. See you in a minute. Well, just after midnight, the night before Donald Trump left Washington headed for Israel and Egypt, he had one of his most serious hallucinations yet. It was another Trump self administered dementia test that he published on social media. At 12:38am Donald Trump said the Biden FBI placed 274 agents into the crowd on January 6th. If this is so, which it is, a lot of very good people will be owed. Big apologies. What a scam. Do something. Three exclamation points. Okay, couple of things. First, Joe Biden never interfered with the FBI. Joe Biden never told a couple hundred FBI agents what to do the way Donald Trump does. And second, Joe Biden was not president when a Trump mob attacked the Capitol on January 6th. Donald Trump was president that day. And Donald Trump was clearly hoping that the Trump mob would succeed in. In their mission to overturn a presidential election. Donald Trump apparently now has no memory of telling that violent crowd to go to the Capitol and fight like hell. Donald Trump now apparently has no memory of telling those people the lie that he would come with them to the Capitol. Donald Trump apparently now does not remember that he sat in the White House alone in a room beside the Oval Office, watching his mob attack the Capitol for 187 minutes without saying a public word about it and without doing anything about it at all. Donald Trump no longer remembers that he was President on January 6th and actually no longer remembers that he didn't tell the FBI what to do that day. That was one day when Donald Trump had no orders for the FBI. Donald Trump did not tell the military what to do that day. Donald Trump didn't tell anyone what to do that day, but he doesn't remember any of that now. It was Vice President Mike Pence who took over the authority of the presidency during the attack on the Capitol and did everything he could from the executive branch to order reinforcements rushed to the Capitol. This is yet another Trump revelation that for any other president, especially Joe Biden, would be taken as proof that he is mentally incapable of doing the job of president. Just imagine what would have happened if Joe Biden had ever said that he was president during the January 6 attack on the Capitol. If Joe Biden had said something like that when he was president, you know how loud the screams in the news media would be for him to immediately resign the presidency. And you know exactly who those screams would come from. Not one of those people has a problem with Donald Trump doing exactly that. Donald Trump hallucinated in the middle of the night Saturday that he was not president on January 6th and that Joe Biden was. And that hallucination, public hallucination, has come and gone without comment from the news media and the politicians who went after Joe Biden. If Joe Biden got the name of a country wrong or one word wrong in a sentence on Friday, the governor of Illinois said this about Donald Trump.

[Daniel Goldman]

I do think he needs mental health help, and I don't think anybody around.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Him that works for him is going.

[Daniel Goldman]

To do that because they're benefiting from.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

His failure of mental health, his dementia.

[Daniel Goldman]

I wish somebody would help out the.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

President of the United States.

[Daniel Goldman]

Meanwhile, you know, he says a lot of crazy things.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

He doesn't have authority to arrest elected.

[Daniel Goldman]

Officials or really anybody where you don't have any, you know, example of a crime being committed.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Tonight, Joe Biden issued this. I am deeply grateful and relieved that this day has come for the last living 20 hostages who have been through unimaginable hell and are finally reunited with their families and loved ones. And for the civilians in Gaza who have experienced immeasurable loss and will finally get the chance to rebuild their lives, the road to this deal was not easy. My administration worked relentlessly to bring hostages home, get relief to Palestinian civilians, and end the war. I commend President Trump and his team for their work to get a renewed ceasefire deal over the finish line. It is a renewed ceasefire deal. Joe Biden helped negotiate the first ceasefire In November of 2023, seven weeks after the October 7 attack on Israel by Hamas. Joe Biden's negotiations secured the release of 105 hostages. At that time, the Biden Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, never stopped negotiating for hostage release. And in the final days of the Biden presidency, three hostages were released in a deal that extended across Inauguration Day resulting resulting in the release of another 27 hostages. And today, the final 20 living hostages who never should have been taken were finally released today. The Israeli government has agreed to release 250 Palestinian prisoners serving life sentences in Israel and another 1700 Palestinians detained during the war, including women and children. On October 7, 2023, Hamas violated what was in effect a ceasefire that had held for over two years at the time. We will consider later in this hour the potential stability of this ceasefire. The Vice President of the United States spent his Sunday morning stretching the truth on television. Margaret Brennan pushed through the fog of Vance Peak to try to find out if there is a Republican position on the issue that Democrats insist must be included in any budget to fund the federal government.

[Angie Hicks]

What is your vision for that health care policy?

[Rachel Maddow]

Do you want these tax credits to.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Fade out over time, extend them and then fade them out? Are you open to making them permanent?

[J.D. Vance]

Well, the tax credits go to some people deservedly, and we think the tax credits actually go to a lot of waste and fraud within the insurance industry. So we want to make sure that the tax credits go to the people who need them.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Waste and fraud in the health insurance industry is something Republicans have never worried about before. They've always protected it. There is a solution to that, which is to remove insurance companies from the health care system. Bernie Sanders and other Democrats have been advocating Medicare for all for years, which is the cleanest way to eliminate any waste in the health insurance industry. And of course, not one Republican supports that solution. Republicans are clearly now running scared about having shut down the government because they refuse to continue the Democratic policy of helping people afford health insurance. The lowest scorer on any civics test in the United States Senate, Republican senator Tommy Tuberville, who is now running for governor of Alabama, told reporters, quote, we've got to make sure that premiums don't go sky high. And extreme right wing Republican Marjorie Taylor Greene has said Republicans are wrong on this issue and she's now blaming the shutdown on the Republican refusal to meet the Democrats on the health care issue. The Republican history of lying about government health care policy goes all the way back to the early 1960s, when Ronald Reagan, before he was ever elected to office, was a very vocal opponent of Medicare, saying that Medicare was the worst possible thing this country can do. When Congress was debating whether to enact Medicare in 1965, Ronald Reagan said Medicare would destroy America. He said, behind it will come other federal programs that will invade every area of freedom as we have known it in this country. Until one day, as Norman Thomas said, we will awake to find that we have socialism. That's the Republican lie and that's how old it is. And Republicans have never stopped lying about health care policy. Remember how they lied about President Obama advocating death panels in his health care bill? President Obama stood before a joint session of Congress and said, there is no such thing as a death panel.

[Rachel Maddow]

Is he a liar? He is not lying in that those two words will not be found in any of those thousands of pages of different variations of the health care bill. No death panel isn't there, but he's incorrect and he is disingenuous.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

He was correct and she was constantly lying about death penalties. On Meet the Press, the vice President said this.

[J.D. Vance]

James Comey obviously lied under oath. Letitia James obviously committed mortgage fraud.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And on ABC he said this.

[J.D. Vance]

Tom Homan did not take a bribe. It's a ridiculous smear.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

How does he know? How does he know who's guilty and who isn't guilty? How does he know any one of those things that he just said? It is worth noting that no vice president of the United States in history before this one has decided to comment on the guilt of federal criminal defendants awaiting trial. That's never happened before. It is not unusual for a vice president to defend members of his administration against accusations of all sorts. But James David Vance is especially bad at it when it comes to bags of cash handed to by FBI undercover agents to Tom Homan and captured secretly on secretly recorded FBI video.

[George Stephanopoulos]

You said he didn't take a bribe, but I'm not sure you answered the question. Are you saying that he did not accept the $50,000?

[J.D. Vance]

George, this story has been covered ad nauseam. He did not take a bribe. And did he accept $50,000? I'm sure that in the course of Tom Homan's life, he has been paid more than $50,000 for services. The question is, did he do something illegal?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And there you finally see the shape of the new White House defense of the man recorded on FBI videotape taking $50,000 in cash. J.D. vance asks himself the question, did he accept the $50,000? And then he says, I'm sure that in the course of Tom Homan's life, he has been paid more than $50,000 for services. So that's the defense. Yes, he took the money, but it was for services. What services could he possibly perform for undercover FBI agents who were lying about who they were? That's the kind of defense that has tripwires all around it, as the vice President demonstrated.

[George Stephanopoulos]

I'm asking you, did he accept the $50,000 that was caught on the surveillance tape? Did he accept that $50,000 or not?

[J.D. Vance]

George, I don't know what you're talking about. Did he accept $50,000 for what?

[George Stephanopoulos]

He was recorded on an audio tape in September 2024, an FBI surveillance tape accepting $50,000 in cash. Did he keep that money?

[J.D. Vance]

Accepting $50,000 for doing what? George? I'm not even sure I understand the question. Is it illegal to take a payment for doing services? The FBI has not prosecuted him. I've never seen any evidence that he's engaged in criminal wrongdoing. Nobody has accused Tom of violating a crime, Even the far left media like yourself. So I'm actually not sure what the precise question is. Did he accept $50,000? Honestly, George, I don't know the answer to that question.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And so there's your answer. I don't know. Did he accept $50,000? There are three possibilities. Yes, no, and I don't know. And J.D. vance just picked I don't know. I don't know the answer. To that question were his exact words. The Vice President seems to realize just how much trouble he was in. And so he tried to backtrack and say he doesn't even know what tape we're talking about.

[George Stephanopoulos]

You're saying right now you don't know whether or not he kept that money.

[J.D. Vance]

I don't know what tape you're referring to, George. I saw media reports that Tom Homan accepted a bribe. There's no evidence of that. And here's George, why fewer and fewer people watch your program and why you're losing credibility because you're talking for now five minutes with the Vice President of the United States about this story regarding Tom Homan, a story that I've read about, but I don't even know the video that you're talking about.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

He does know. Of course he knows. And George Stephanopoulos ably exposed what the Vice President knows, what he doesn't know, and what he's incapable of answering. MSNBC exclusively broke the news over three weeks ago that FBI undercover agents secretly recorded a video of Tom Homan accepting $50,000 in cash in a paper bag handed to him by those undercover FBI agents. And here is how the Vice President's very unsuccessful interview ended.

[J.D. Vance]

You're insinuating criminal wrongdoing against a guy who has done nothing wrong. Instead of focusing on the fact that that our country is struggling because our government shut down, let's talk about the real issues, George. I think the American people would benefit much more from that than from you going down some weird left wing rabbit hole where the facts clearly show that Tom Homan didn't engage in any criminal wrongdoing.

[George Stephanopoulos]

It's not a weird left wing rabbit hole. I didn't insinuate anything. I asked you whether Tom Homan accepted $50,000, as was heard on an audio tape recorded by the FBI in September 2024, and you did not answer the question. Thank you for your time this morning.

[J.D. Vance]

No, I said that I don't.

[George Stephanopoulos]

Up next, we'll be right back.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And thank you, George Stephanopoulos. Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Daniel Goldman of New York. He's a member of the House Judiciary Committee and former federal prosecutor for the Southern District of New York. And Congressman Goldman, I just want to begin with this final with you with the final release of the last living hostages. Only 20 now left living at this point, of course, most of the hostages released during the Biden presidency. But this such an important day in the lives of those hostages who never, ever should have been taken for one minute.

[Daniel Goldman]

Lawrence it's, it's a really emotional day for so many. It's a long time coming with a tremendous amount of work put in by so many people. Certainly the framework of this deal, this peace deal, was drafted and crafted by the Biden administration. But there's no credit, no question that Donald Trump really brought it all together to push it over to the finish line. And to see all 20 of these living hostages returning home today is both a cause for celebration, a cause for relief, and a cause for rejoicing. It's also a reminder that, that there are still at least 28 deceased hostages who remain in Gaza who must also be returned so that they can have a proper burial in the Jewish tradition. And we're not going to stop pushing until they are all returned and ultimately until this peace plan can be fully executed. And there's a lot more work to be done. But today we are really just rejoicing that the hostages have been returned home.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Carson Goldman it seems like we have seen at least an attempt yesterday by the vice president at a new defense for Tom Homan that it sounds like they're not going to try to say he didn't take the money, but he took the money for services. How do you perform services for undercover FBI agents who aren't requiring you to do any services?

[Daniel Goldman]

I mean, that's one of so many questions. How does JD Vance know that there's no evidence of a crime if he hasn't seen or heard of the videotape that has Tom Homan receiving $50,000 in cash in a bag? His whole explanation is absolutely preposterous. And they're floundering because there is so clearly a two tier system of justice when it's Tom Homan, when it's an ally of the president, they will literally close an investigation where the guy took $50,000 in cash that does not happen overnight in order for some future transaction. I'm sure we don't know cuz they won't release the videotape and they close the investigation. You have the Epstein files where they were all so hot to trot. Now there's a massive cover up because it's clear Donald Trump is involved. On the other hand, you have Jim Comey, Letitia James and who knows how many others who are indicted on the thinnest of evidence that will not stand up in court if it even gets to a jury trial. And that really shows you the juxtaposition that J.D. vance can say with a straight face that Tom Homan obviously did not commit a crime or that he clearly did not commit a crime cuz the FBI didn't prosecute him. And that Letitia James is guilty because of this bogus allegations with cherry picked evidence. It is a very, very frank reminder as to how much this Justice Department is politicized and how destroyed its reputation is right now.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And the position that Homan is in as the so called border czar. His declared mission to people in this country at the beginning was he was gonna go get all the bad, all the criminals, all the bad guys, everyone he was gonna round up were gonna be criminals. They grabbed a 13 year old kid the other day in Massachusetts, obviously not a criminal, but here's Homan himself on an FBI videotape grabbing, not a criminal, grabbing $50,000 in cash. And with that potential criminal conduct, which certainly sounds like cr, how is he possibly still the so called leader of a group that's going after criminals?

[Daniel Goldman]

It's absolutely remarkable. I mean the sad reality of course is that they are getting very few criminals in all of their mass arrests and dragnet. In fact, in New York City here, 70% of those who have been detained by immigration ICE agents do not have a criminal record at all. And we were told they were going to get the worst of the worst and they were going to go after all the convicted criminals and the murderers and the rapists. That's not at all what they're doing. They're actually wrapping up in their dragnet a number of American citizens. It is un American and unconstitutional and unlawful. But the thing that's interesting, Lawrence, is we've now seen through this big ugly bill tens and tens of billions of dollars that have gone to ICE for enforcement. A lot of that money is going to be contracted out to private immigration enforcement, either entities or prisons or whatever it is. Tom Homan controls those contracts. So if you are someone with a private prison or other business that can benefit from government spending on immigration, that is coming down the pike with Donald Trump and Tom Homan. $50,000 bribe is a great. And there is a lot more for us to uncover about what Tom Homan has been up to, what led to the $50,000 bribe. Because that in my experience does not happen overnight. That is a large and sprawling investigation to that point when it gets there. And there's a lot more there that we need to learn about.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Carson. Daniel Goldman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[George Stephanopoulos]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And our next guest, Rachel Maddow is here to discuss her new documentary about civil rights activist Andrew Young. Rachel Maddow joins us next.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The favorite thing I can say on this show is Rachel Maddow is our next guest and she is because of her new documentary. Civil rights leader Andrew Young in 1973 became the first African American elected to Congress from Georgia since reconstruction. And in 1977, he then became the first African American to hold the position of the United States Ambassador to the United Nations. Andrew young is now 93 years old and living in Atlanta. New documentary by Rachel tells Andrew Young's story in his own words, from his close friendship with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. To his political and diplomatic career. Here is a preview of the MSNBC film Andrew the Dirty Work. Andrew Young, the American Ambassador to the United nations, is in Tanzania today.

[Andrew Young]

He said, meet as many African leaders as you can. It's not necessary to agree.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's only necessary that we understand each other and respect each other. UN Ambassador Andrew Young was in Mozambique today.

[Andrew Young]

These policies represent a revolution in the consciousness of the American people.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Kenyan citizens turned out en masse in Nairobi today. The American delegation was led by United Nations Ambassador Andrew Young.

[Andrew Young]

This and this. Young's visit showed a renewed American interest in Africa, and his cordial reception showed that Nigeria might be willing to make a fresh beginning. How are you doing, Andy? John, nice to see you. Young eventually did get down to work, meeting a number of African leaders, including President Kaunda of Zambia.

[J.D. Vance]

Andrew Young will be telling black nationalist.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Leaders that the United States supports their struggle for political power. Joining us now, Rachel Maddow. So they still remember 10 years ago, I had a taxi driver in Nairobi, where I'm going next week. I'm going to Africa next week. Who brought up Andrew Young's visit in Nairobi. That's how important it was. That's how important it is.

[Rachel Maddow]

Oh, wow. That's amazing. You know, that section of the culminates in what very well may have been an assassination attempt against Andrew Young in South Africa after he had this incredible confrontation with the apartheid government in South Africa on that trip. And it's. I mean, the man has lived a million lives. Having him at 93, totally with it, totally lucid, totally shrewd. Every. Every inch the man he ever was able to narrate those episodes from life, it's just. I can't. I pinch myself. I still can't believe we've been able to do it.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, it's. You know, I hadn't thought about the South African view of him at that time. I mean, that was the darkest days of apartheid. The idea of apartheid ending in the 1970s was not really. No one really thought that was coming. But for him to show up on the continent of Africa was absolutely the regime's worst nightmare.

[Rachel Maddow]

Oh, yeah. And we have man on the street footage of white South African responding to his presence there with just not even veiled vitriol, just unrestrained vitriol and wishing violence on him. And while he's in South Africa, at one point, his guard disappears and he's in a hotel room and the people who are supposed to be guarding him have gone, and he has been subjected to escalating death threats and these threats from the apartheid government. And he's there, and he's facing his mortality in a way that he kind of hadn't since living through the assassinations in the civil rights era. And it's just talk about a man in the arena and having been there through, as he says, you know, bearing the slings and arrows. It's just an incredible story. You can't believe that one man did all these things.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I'm just thinking of him in that hotel room with. Also with the knowledge of that's where Martin Luther King Jr. Was assassinated, was in his hotel room. Basically step out the door of it.

[Rachel Maddow]

Exactly.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So. So I worked hard on my first question, which was, what does the subtitle mean? And then I watched. I got the answer at 9 o'. Clock. So explain the title because not, you know, just about everybody watching right now is watching at 9 o'. Clock. But there might be two or three who missed that moment where you explained the subtitle.

[Rachel Maddow]

So we didn't go into this film knowing that that was going to be the subtitle. It was something that Ambassador Young himself, a phrase that he used in talking about his life. He said it was. He thought of what he did in the civil rights movement as the dirty work that he would do, the work that nobody else wanted to do. He would do the work that nobody wanted to do. Not because it was necessarily the most onerous or the most dangerous or the most out there, just because it was the work that nobody wanted to do. And sometimes it was just because it was the most annoying work or it was the work that was most personally injurious to you, even if it was the right thing for the movement. And that to me, I mean, we're going to be airing this film on Friday night at 9pm Eastern. Friday night is the eve of the next round of no Kings protests. Millions and millions and millions of Americans are going to go out on Saturday in those no Kings protests and be part of what is now a very large peaceful movement of resistance against this administration and its extremism. Thinking about the dirty work, thinking about what it means to be not a leader necessarily, not the guy in the masthead, not the guy at the podium, but the organizer, the administrator, the guy who's getting the mailing list straightened out. Making sure that people are where they need to be. Telling people. No, telling people your protest here is inconvenient. You're gonna have to do it at a different time in a different way. Visiting people in jail, making sure people are fed all that kind of shit. Shoe leather work is much more representative of the kind of work it takes to build a successful movement than just the figureheads who we remember, than just the leaders who we lionize. And Andrew Young is a giant of American history and a giant of the civil rights movement. His story isn't that well known because he hasn't wanted it to be that well known. But when he told us that he would talk about himself in really personal terms, kind of for the first time, we knew that we had to make the.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We have to squeeze in a commercial break when we come back. I'm going to. Wow, that's one of my so many favorite clips in this film. But this one is from the congressional steam Room, which I've heard so many stories from, but these are the first Andrew Young stories I've ever heard from the Congressional Steam Room. We're going to be right back with that with Rachel right after this break.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Here'S more of Rachel Maddow's new documentary, Andrew the Dirty Work, which premieres Friday at 9pm.

[Andrew Young]

Because the smartest members in the Congress gather around the speaker in the steam room. I'd get there just a little before the wrap up in my robe and pretend to be sleep. Nobody paid any attention to me, but they got to know me. And after a while I got included in the conversations. I was talking to people with whom I disagreed, but I had learned to always find something in their point of view and then build on that. So I did things like the Congressional Prayer Breakfast every Wednesday morning was usually very conservative Christians, and I never missed it. They called on me to pray and I prayed for the family of Vice President Agnew, who just had to resign. And the fact that I prayed for his family. It shocked all the other Republicans. And I said, why not?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Wow. I mean, every beat of that, you know, the mysteries of the Congressional steam room where only members can go, only House members in the House, only senators, you know, staff members have never seen it. You know, we just see them come out with wet Hair. That's all we know.

[Rachel Maddow]

Wet hair and weird antigonets.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

But man. So the power of his brilliance of finding every opportunity. He's in the steam room. He didn't go there. He went there to get away from work. Then he realizes, I've got an opportunity here. But that final point about he in the prayer group says something. Prayers for the Republican disgraced vice president who you've illuminated so well, that just has everything about the kind of diplomacy that actually works in that place.

[Rachel Maddow]

His strategic thinking about how to be, you know, invisible, how to be up against impossible odds, how to be in the minority, literally, how to use what you've got to make an unwinnable fight winnable, how to make something from nothing, whether it is pretending to be sleep in the steam room or effectively as a pastor, which everybody forgets he was a pastor, was a minister, sort of infiltrating that very conservative Christian, very conservative part of congressional culture. It's a lesson. I mean, it's worth admission, but it's also just a lesson in how strategic openings can be found almost anywhere.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. And the northern white liberals who did great work and got a lot of attention to issues were never in the prayer group. They were never in that spot where they might be able to gain an inch with one of those people he.

[Rachel Maddow]

Talks about in his time with Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement, always being the one who was sent across the lines to go talk to white business owners, to go talk to white citizens, segregationists. There is a very dramatic moment, a life threatening moment in the film where he decides that the thing he ought to do is to go negotiate with the Klan who are out at night in their robes and armed. And he decides that he'll be the one to go across the aisle, the proverbial aisle, and make peace with them and talk to them. And it does not end well. But that idea, I will be the one, I can talk to anyone. And this bridge has to be crossed by one of us. It'll be me. I will do the dirty work. To me, in this moment moment, with the odds that we've got in this country, with this difficulty we've got with this authoritarian government, it's very inspiring. It's very humbling.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. I didn't see as I didn't understand how clear a through line there is from his civil rights career where he was the appointed negotiator. Hey, go talk to the other side, to the United Nations. I mean, that's exactly who you want. I didn't get that Linkage until this film.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah. And he's a very controversial UN Ambassador. Part of the reason he ends up resigning under pressure as UN Ambassador is because he's got too many people talking to each other who are supposed to not be talking to each other. But he insists that negotiation, even among all the worst people, negotiation among people who see each other not even as human, must happen, that those bridges must be crossed and that he'll be the one to do it, no matter what it costs him. And it's just. It's a very humbling thing. And to know that he's still with us and able to narrate those lessons from his life and talk about what it meant to him, I just. I'm very, very humbled by having been able to do this work with him.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The commitment was not for, you know, a congressional term of office. It was not for a fixed term at the United Nations. The commitment he made was for life. And that it's such a powerful model today when people are wondering, how am I possibly going to survive the next three years and two months of Donald Trump? It's like, well, if you ever told Andy Young or Martin Luther King that they've got three years and two months before they get to the next high point, they would have thought, oh, good, that's coming fast then, huh? Yeah.

[Rachel Maddow]

And I feel like, Lawrence, I mean, we were talking before about kind of all these projects that I've done over the last few years. I feel like there is this through line that I keep coming back to, which is that Americans before us have fought harder fights against worse odds, and they've done it for longer in a more sustained and in some ways more profound way. And we them the inheritance of what they've left us as a republic. But we also owe it to ourselves to learn those lessons, to learn what their lives were like, even if they weren't famous people, even if they don't have statues made of them, to learn what it was like to do the hard work and to win in previous generations. And there are some of those people who we have to learn in books and in podcasts and movies, and there's some of those people who we can still talk to. And Andy Young is one of those men.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I am. Friday night, I'm gonna not be doing my usual thing, which is nothing. I'm gonna be on my way. I'm be on a plane on my way to Africa. And so I won't be watching Friday night at. Let's see, the teleprompter says 9:00pm, 9:00pm Eastern.

[Rachel Maddow]

I'll be doing a special Rachel Maddow show, 8:00pm Eastern. And then the film starts at 9.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So those of us who miss it, Friday at 9. I'm gonna have it recorded at home, but will there be future opportunities to see it at night?

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, everybody can go to your house.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, that's it. It'll be on my DVR anytime. Rachel, can't thank you enough for doing this. The film, the clips alone have me so hooked. So ready to go.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you, Lawrence. It's very nice of you to have me here.

[Ben Rhodes]

Thank you.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thanks.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And when we come back, we finally have the last living 20 hostages released, hostages who never should have been taken released by Hamas today and the beginning of the latest ceasefire in Gaza. Ben Rhodes will join us next. On the way back to Washington today from Israel, Donald Trump stopped in Egypt, where a summit of heads of state was already underway to consider how to strengthen the ceasefire in Gaza. Egyptian President Abdel Fattah El Sisi, British Prime Minister Keir Starmer, German Chancellor Friedrich Mertz and Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney were among the 20 participants in the meeting. The Associated Press reports that the Egyptian president, quote, reiterated his call for a two state solution, saying Palestinians have the right to an independent state. The summit in Egypt's Red Sea resort town of Sharm El Sheikh was aimed at supporting the ceasefire reached in Gaza, ending the Israel Hamas war and developing a long term vision for governing and rebuilding the devastated Palestinian territory. Joining us now is Ben Rhodes, former deputy national security advisor to President Obama and an MSNBC political analyst. And Ben, of course, most of the hostages who were released alive were released during the Biden administration. But now the final 20 who are living are finally home, closing at least the awful chapter of the hostages.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, that's right. I mean, it's closing a chapter for those Israeli families. And as you pointed out, there have been now three ceasefires. So while this one feels more final because it's the final chapter of the hostages getting out, it's still just a cease fire. And the question is whether it's going to grow into something more lasting in terms of some kind of peaceful resolution. And again, I think your point, Lawrence, about, about that with the hostages is, you know, the duration of the war led to there being less hostages alive to come home, just as it led to, obviously, an extraordinary amount of suffering and death for Palestinians in Gaza. So it's a, it's a great day for the people who released Israelis and Palestinians. But it's, you know, it's it's not as kind of joyful in some ways as Trump was projecting, because there's been so much suffering, so much death and destruction, and now so much work that lies ahead to take take what is really just a ceasefire and see if it can become something more durable.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

What do you think are the elements of the work to come, and what do you think could come out of that summit today in Egypt, for example, by way of possible proposals that could move forward?

[Ben Rhodes]

There are two critical questions which could not be resolved in the ceasefire itself. Israel and Hamas could not agree. Number one, who is going to essentially govern Gaza? There's no administration there. The infrastructure is completely destroyed. You know, Hamas is notionally in control, but they're definitely significantly degraded, obviously. And so there's this question of is Israel and the IDF going to stay and try to essentially control Gaza? Or as is envisioned in the plan that Trump himself laid out, can there be some kind of alternative Palestinian administration that can essentially be built and probably funded by some of those Arab leaders that were in Egypt? And then secondly, what happens to Hamas in terms of their military capabilities? The plan that Trump laid out also calls for the demilitarization of Hamas. They did not agree to that either. Those are two pretty big sticking points here. And that's why this could potentially flare up again, hopefully not.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

What has changed that could change Hamas's grip on Gaza?

[Ben Rhodes]

I think when you have such a cataclysmic event like this, part of what's changed is they're obviously weaker. They've lost a significant amount of their leadership. The Palestinian people are desperate for any kind of hope and reconstruction. And again, I think part of what may have changed is if you can get those Arab countries that have a lot of resources, you know, Lawrence and the Saudis and the Qataris and the Emiratis have plenty of money if you can get that turned on to support a totally alternative, non Hamas Palestinian leadership that is kind of comprised not just of the Palestinian Authority in the west bank, but, you know, Palestinian technocrats and civil society. You might be able to construct something that is viable leadership with some legitimacy with the people that is not Hamas. I think the question also is whether Israel wants to kind of permit that. There's obviously a far right part of Netanyahu's coalition that isn't even particularly happy with this ceasefire. The Israeli people seem very happy with this ceasefire. So part of what's changed is maybe the fatigue on both sides sides with all of this suffering, all of the death and destruction that might create a window for those resources to flow in the right place and for there to be some kind of lasting arrangement that can provide for both the Palestinians desperate desire to rebuild and have some self determination and the Israeli desire to not see Hamas on their border.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Ben Rhodes, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Ben Rhodes]

Thanks Aarns.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We'll be right back. That is tonight's last word.

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