← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Lawrence: Donald Trump now has ‘constitutional dementia’ about Harvard & deporting American citizens
00:41:15
Tonight on The Last Word: A judge blasts the Trump Justice Department for its refusal to return Kilmar Abrego Garcia. Also, Donald Trump escalates his fight with Harvard University. Plus, Trump blames Ukraine’s Volodymyr Zelenskyy for the war yet again and calls Vladimir Putin’s deadly Palm Sunday attack “a mistake.” And The Washington Post reports a government memo lays out the Trump administration’s proposal to slash State Department and USAID budgets. Andrew Weissmann, Laurence Tribe, and Nicholas Kristof join Lawrence O’Donnell.
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- [00:00]
Lawrence O'Donnell
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- [00:56]
Rachel Maddow
Always consult the owner's manual before off roading.
- [00:58]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Know your terrain and trail difficulty and use appropriate safety gear.
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Lawrence Tribe
Now it's time for the Last word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence.
- [01:05]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Good evening, Rachel. And I know, like me, you've been waiting for at least 24 hours, more than that to hear what Harvard law professor Lawrence Tribe has to say about Donald Trump's burst of lawlessness, including directed toward Harvard University. And your patience is rewarded tonight. He will be joining us on this program. Going to open the microphone and let them go.
- [01:32]
Lawrence Tribe
You know, Lawrence, we just covered a story at the end there about some other universities, whether or not they're drafting off of Harvard's bravery here, but some other universities that are taking a better together than alone approach here and they are banding together in the Big Ten. UMass Amherst is trying to get land grant colleges to band together so they can eventually provide mutual defense for one another, support one another in standing up for Trump when Trump inevitably comes. For those organizations, for those universities as well, there's all different ways to fight this. Harvard is certainly cutting a wake here.
- [02:08]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Yeah. And I don't think of it as bravery for Harvard. They're big enough, strong enough, old enough, the oldest university in America to do it, but the smaller schools could be completely wiped out. And it does take bravery and it does take a team. It takes this unity that you were describing that I was listening to. It's exactly the way to approach it.
- [02:31]
Lawrence Tribe
Yeah. Band together, don't fight these, A, fight these things and B, make sure you don't fight these things alone. We're start. It's taking. We're slow of the uptake, but we're figuring it out.
- [02:41]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Yeah, we'll get there. Thank you, Rachel.
- [02:43]
Lawrence Tribe
Thanks, Lawrence. Thanks.
- [02:44]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Thank you. Well, Lindeen, the new Trump era of disgraced Washington law firms that have shamed themselves forever by giving in to Donald Trump's plainly unconstitutional demands on them. There is tonight one Washington law firm that is taking the most boldly defiant possible course of action against Donald Trump. And I have never before considered using the word brave in relation to any high powered, highly paid Washington law firm. The brave lawyers I've seen in our history have usually been sole practitioners outside of Washington, D.C. or members of much smaller law firms, sometimes little family law firms, taking on the most challenging cases. Gregory Peck won an Oscar for his portrayal of what became an iconic version of the brave lawyer. The Hollywood version of the brave lawyer has never been a highly paid member of a Washington law firm. Gregory Peck was on his own and To Kill a Mockingbird, the hero of that courtroom. But tonight, the two most important challenges to Donald Trump's reign of constitutional terrorism. What one federal judge has called lawlessness are being represented by the same law firm. The Washington law firm of Quinn, Emanuel, Urquhart and Sullivan is representing the man Donald Trump deported to El Salvador, to an El Salvador prison in a process that even the Trump lawyers at first had to admit was, quote, an administrative error. And that same law firm is defending Harvard University against Donald Trump's flagrant display of constitutional dementia in his attempt to take over Harvard University and in effect, make himself, Donald Trump, the president of Harvard University in the same way that he took over the Kennedy center and control the admission of students at Harvard University, the hiring and firing of professors, and all of the hiring at the university, including the cafeteria staff, the coaches, the building maintenance staff, everyone. A letter addressed to the constitutional clowns working for Donald Trump who demanded that Harvard University surrender to Donald Trump, was co signed by William A. Burke of the firm Quinn, Emanuel, Urquhart and Sullivan, representing Harvard University. That lawyer's letter told the small Trump team minds trying to take over Harvard. Quote, the university will not surrender its independence or relinquish its constitutional rights. Neither Harvard nor any other private university can allow itself to be taken over by the federal government. Harvard is not prepared to agree to demands that go beyond the lawful authority of this or any administration. The entire phony, utterly phony pretext for Donald Trump's attempts to make himself the president of Harvard University is that Donald Trump is now the country's leading crusader against Antisemitism. In one of his first trips to Iowa as a presidential candidate, Donald Trump felt compelled to try to make it very clear to Iowa voters right away that he was not Jewish. Donald Trump assumed that if Iowa Republican voters thought that this New Yorker, this New York businessman, was Jewish, that he might have a big problem in Iowa. And so he's the only presidential candidate in history who took pains to point out that he's not Jewish. And of course, it was Donald Trump who had one of the accountants at one of his casinos fired because Donald Trump believed that that accountant was not Jewish. Donald Trump said then, quote, the only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day. We know Donald Trump is unperturbed by anti Semitism enough that he is the only president in history who has happily dined with a Holocaust denier and never apologized for that. Donald Trump had an intimate dinner at home in Florida with a Holocaust denier. And now Donald Trump wants to tell us and everyone else how to stop anti Semitism. How about, don't have dinner with Holocaust deniers. How about that? Donald Trump is the single worst investigator of antisemitism who has ever claimed to be investigating antisemitism. Donald Trump currently employs an acting U.S. attorney in Washington, D.C. who he has nominated for Senate confirmation to become the U.S. attorney for Washington, D.C. who himself has happily praised a man who said, quote, hitler should have finished the job. At the sentencing hearing of a January 6th defendant named Timothy Hale, federal prosecutors introduced evidence that he had said, Hitler should have finished the job. And Ed Martin, who is now the head of the office, the U.S. attorney's office in Washington, D.C. the acting head that prosecuted all the January 6th defendants, heaped praise on the man who said Hitler should have finished the job. One guy is named Timothy hale. Tim served three plus years in prison based almost entirely on the 1512 fraudulent charge. In prison, he did the things that he'd done in his life before, which is he thought a lot and read a lot and been a writer and a thinker. He's the nephew of our own Cynthia Hughes, who's done so much for so many of us, but he's an extraordinary man, extraordinary leader. Now, of those who have survived January 6th, and I think he's resisted this, but I don't care because I have the. I bought this microphone and I want him to come up and say at least a few moments, a few minutes of thoughts and have you encourage him with a round of applause. Timothy Hale. Tim. With Donald Trump hauntingly and symbolically looking on and that portrait there beside the microphone. Donald Trump's choice to be the U.S. attorney for Washington, D.C. invites demands applause from the audience for the man who said Hitler should have finished the job. That's Donald Trump's team in action. Hitler should have finished the job. That man gets the full approval of the acting Trump U.S. attorney in Washington, D.C. ed Martin. And Donald Trump claims to be the chief investigator and preventer of anti Semitism in America. Ed Martin knows Timothy Hale's case. He quoted Timothy Hale's case. He knows it. He must know. How could he not know that? The federal prosecutors presented evidence that Timothy Hale said Hitler should have finished the job. Donald Trump's choice to be the U.S. attorney in Washington, D.C. praised the man who he had to know had said Hitler should have finished the job. That was part of the sentencing hearing. In a sentence that Ed Martin thinks was unfair. Federal prosecutors presented that to the judge in that case, a case that Ed Martin claims to be an expert about. He's an expert about a case where the prosecutor said that the man Ed Martin thinks is a hero and should be praised by him and by the onlooking Trump portrait. That man who said Hitler should have finished the job. Ed Martin brought his legal expertise to that case of the man who said Hitler should have finished the job and has decided that he was wrongfully convicted by that oppressive Justice Department that prosecuted all of those innocent people who were on their way on January 6th to try to kill the Vice President of the United States, among other violent ambitions they had that day and screamed that day at the top of their lungs, Donald Trump's antisemitism police didn't find that guy. But Donald Trump's antisemitism. Police said that Donald Trump has to take over Harvard University because Harvard University has no idea how to deal with anti Semitism the way Donald Trump does. Donald Trump wants Harvard University to fire anyone who condones antisemitism or expel any student who condones antisemitism. And Donald Trump employs and is trying to obtain Senate confirmation for a man who praised a convicted criminal who said Hitler should have finished the job. All of that information was available to Donald Trump before he chose Ed Martin to be his U.S. attorney in Washington, D.C. all of it. And Donald Trump, the great anti Semitism investigator, doesn't care about it. Donald Trump has not fired Ed Martin for praising that anti Semite who you're looking at on your screen right now. That is the man who prosecutors said has said Hitler should have finished the job. And that is the man who Donald Trump's acting U.S. attorney in Washington, D.C. was just praising on that video that you just saw. Ed Martin is now one of the fully disgraced attorneys who has been appointed by Donald Trump to the Justice Department, where some of them spend their days now trying to defend the mistake Donald Trump's gang deportation team made by deporting Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who has been in this, who was at this country since he was 16 years old, has never been convicted of any crime in any country. Early in the proceedings, one Justice Department lawyer involved in the case admitted to the judge that it was what he called an administrative error to deport Mr. Abrego Garcia. And because that lawyer admitted that that lawyer has now been fired from the Trump Justice Department. Since that lawyer was removed from the case, Judge Paulo Zinas has been more than frustrated trying to get the Trump lawyers and the Trump Justice Department to do the minimally decent thing and the constitutional thing and correct their mistake and bring Mr. Abrego Garcia back to the United States from the proudly cruel prison in El Salvador, where most of the people sent there by Donald Trump have absolutely no evidence of any gang affiliations of any kind and no criminal records anywhere. In a hearing today, Judge Zenas said, to date, what the record shows is nothing has been done, nothing. Meaning the Trump Justice Department has ignored her demands, supported by the Supreme Court, that they facilitate Mr. Abrego Garcia's return to the United States. Today, the judge said something to the Trump Justice Department lawyers that most federal judges have never had to say to any lawyers. Quote, there will be no tolerance for gamesmanship or grandstanding. The judge said that yesterday's discussion said that yesterday's discussion in the Oval Office about the case between Donald Trump and the president of El Salvador, who proudly proclaims himself to be a dictator, had no relevance to the proceedings in the case. She said that that scene in the Oval Office was, quote, two very misguided ships passing in the night. Just before today's hearing started, the Trump lawyers added this statement to the record of the case. Quote, if Abrego Garcia does present at a port of entry, would become subject to detention by Department of Health, Department of Homeland Security. In that case, Department of Homeland Security would take him into custody in the United States and either remove him to a third country or terminate his withholding of removal because of his membership in MS.13, a designated foreign terrorist organization, and remove him to El Salvador. So the Trump lawyers are now saying there is no point and trying to bring him back. Because if he's brought back, we will immediately send him back to El Salvador because he is a member of Ms. 13, even though there isn't the slightest bit of evidence that he's a member of any gang. Jarzenas has noted that the evidence about this gang stuff, quote, consisted of nothing more than his Chicago Bulls hat and hoodie and a vague, uncorroborated allegation from a confidential informant claiming he belonged to MS.13's western clique in New York, a place he has never lived. And once again today, Donald Trump made this case, the Abrego Garcia case, a case about all of us, about you, about me, about everybody, American citizen, about every person in this country. Donald Trump is now saying that he eagerly wants to deport American citizens to El Salvador. And when he says that, he does not mention that those citizens must be formally convicted of a crime before he deports them. But let's just assume that he does want to send American citizens to a prison in El Salvador only after they've been convicted of a crime. That simply means if he snatched an American citizen off the street and sent that American to El Salvador, to a prisoner in El Salvador without that citizen having been convicted of a crime, that would be what the Trump lawyers call an administrative error. And Donald Trump and his lawyers are saying in court that the administrative error can never be fixed, because once they've sent someone to that El Salvador prison, there is nothing they can do to get that person out of that El Salvador prison. Even though the gangster style president of El Salvador was in the Oval Office sucking up to his new friend, Donald Trump in every way he possibly could, posting pictures, calling Donald Trump my friend. And so obviously, the president of El Salvador will do anything for his friend, the President of the United States, including helping to return Mr. Abrego Garcia or anyone else. So, as it stands tonight, we live in a country where the President of the United States and his lawyers are insisting in court that the president can snatch anyone in America out of their car while their child is in the backseat, as was the case for Mr. Abrego Garcia, put that person on a plane to El Salvador, locking that person up in a prison in El Salvador. And if it turns out that that person's an American citizen who has never committed a crime anywhere in the world, then that's just an administrative error and it cannot be fixed. Supreme Court Justice Sonia Silomayor said in the unanimous Supreme Court opinion ordering the Trump administration to facilitate the release of Mr. Abrego Garcia. Quote, the implication of the government's position is that not only non citizens, but also United States citizens can be taken off the streets, forced onto planes and confined to foreign prisons with no opportunity for redress, meaning forever. As of tonight, those are the conditions we are all living in in the United States. As Justice Sotomayor said, not only non citizens, but also United States citizens can be taken off the streets, forced onto planes and confined to foreign prisons with no opportunity for redress. Donald Trump said they can put you in prison for the rest of your life. And once they get you there, there's nothing that you or any lawyer or any judge or anyone, anyone, anywhere in the world, including the United States Supreme Court, can ever do to get you out of that prison. And you don't have to take my word for it, because those are the words of Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor, who thought she grew up in a country where that could never happen. Leading off our discussion tonight is Andrew Weisman, former FBI general counsel and former chief of the Criminal Division in the Eastern District of New York. He's also an MSNBC legal analyst. Andrew, we just got the transcript of this proceeding today in the courtroom and it's one of those Trump era court transcripts that has passed passages and turns that I've never seen before.
- [21:23]
Andrew Weissman
So you don't have to just take it to your comment to Justice Sotomayor. That is the position of the government in court in black and white in that transcript. Let me just give you some examples of what we are reading. First in the quote that you had where the government submitted that there's no point essentially in bringing them back because we're just going to remove him. Again, they left out something. The Supreme Court of the United States ruled last week that the government has been violating due process and they're required, they're required to give due process to anybody who is sought to be removed, United States citizen or not. There has to be due process. They have a right to a court hearing so the government can try to do all of that. But a court is going to be involved and the person has an opportunity to challenge the law and the facts. That was conveniently left out of the submission by the government to the court today. Second, the order from the Supreme Court was to facilitate the release of Mr. Abrego Garcia, who sits in jail as we speak because of the government's wrongful actions. They were supposed to facilitate the release. The government's position is what that means facilitate the release. The Supreme Court order means that if Mr. Abrego Garcia manages to escape from prison and present himself to the United States at a port of entry. Then only then does the government have an obligation under the Supreme Court ruling to accept him and to do something to have him enter the country. That is their interpretation of what it means when the Supreme Court said facilitate his release, which is preposterous. And finally today, the government said that the court has no ability to get the answer to the following question. Have you, the United States, even asked EL SALVADOR For Mr. Garcia to be returned? Have you even asked? Their view is that's not something the court can even require. I mean, this is truly outlandish. It is exactly what you said, which is if you are removed to a foreign country, the government's position is that they can wash their hands of it even if they violated due process in doing that.
- [23:54]
Lawrence O'Donnell
I just want to read from the judge's order that she issued at the end of the proceedings tonight and how they proceed from here, which includes getting some under oath testimony from Trump administration officials. She said the government appears to have done nothing to aid in Abrego Garcia's release from custody and return to the United States to ensure that his case is handled as it would have been but for the defendant's wrongful expulsion of him. Thus, defendants attempt to skirt this issue by redefining facilitate runs contrary to law and logic. And in what the judge was saying there, she's basically, she was quoting the Supreme Court language on this. But it's all turning for the Trump lawyers on what does the word facilitate mean in this case?
- [24:47]
Andrew Weissman
That is true, but it is, this is, this is just Alice in Wonderland. I mean, they're basically just saying, I mean, this is reminds me of The President saying January 6th is a wonderful day and nothing bad happens. I mean, they're just taking black and white language in the Supreme Court and saying it means something that it clearly doesn't. The district court is not having any of it. She has ordered discovery to be taken very quickly. But again, just remember, this is all the intransigence and the callousness of our government, that we have somebody who is sitting in jail in violation of his rights, and he's still going to be there while this discovery proceeding happens because the government is not willing to be just fundamentally decent.
- [25:40]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Andrew Weissman, thank you very much for starting off our discussions tonight.
- [25:44]
Andrew Weissman
You're welcome.
- [25:46]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Thank you. And next, the discussion we've all been waiting for. Harvard Constitutional law professor Lawrence Tribe will join us next. And I'll be taking notes.
- [26:01]
Rachel Maddow
It's President Trump's first 100 days and MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it all from the front lines. What issue matters to you the most? Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the President's policies and promises.
- [26:16]
Nicholas Kristof
Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody he can count on this group of people again?
- [26:20]
Rachel Maddow
Search for Trumpland with Alex Wagner wherever you're listening and follow subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to Listen ad free. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.
- [26:40]
Lawrence Tribe
I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.
- [26:46]
Rachel Maddow
Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc daily@msnbc.com Sir David Frost gave us a front row seat to history. Now we discover his most iconic interviews. MSNBC Films presents a six part documentary series David Frost Versus beginning Sunday, April 27th at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [27:19]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Today. President Barack Obama, who graduated from Harvard Law School in 1991 Harvard has set an example for other higher ed institutions, rejecting an unlawful and ham handed attempt to stifle academic freedom while taking concrete steps to make sure all students at Harvard can benefit from an environment of intellectual inquiry, rigorous debate and mutual respect. Let's hope other institutions follow suit. And Donald Trump's latest burst of constitutional dementia. Donald Trump said today, quote, perhaps Harvard should lose its tax exempt status and be taxed as a political entity if it keeps pushing political, ideological and terrorist inspired supporting sickness. Sorry Donald, tax law is written by the Congress alone and a majority of the Senate and the House will never vote to revoke the tax status of America's universities. Joining us now is Professor Lawrence Tribe who has taught Constitutional Law at Harvard Law School for five decades. And Professor Tribe, I just want to begin by reading one of your social media posts about this. You said Harvard will not comply with the Trump administration's demands to alter its truth seeking mission or its commitment to fairness. I'm proud of Harvard and its leaders. This is the moment to max out in giving to Harvard to fill the gap Trump will create. I've heard others say that about contributing to Harvard these days and one of the interesting developments from this program last night was that on our social media after we covered it Here on the show, there were people with no affiliation to Harvard whatsoever who were saying they were going to make contributions to Harvard, $10, $100 something, but sending in those contributions because they were so grateful for what Harvard has done.
- [29:12]
Nicholas Kristof
Well, I'm grateful too. I was worried that Harvard would ultimately compromise with Donald Trump the way a number of universities have. But when Stephen Miller, whose hand I detect behind the letter that Harvard received on Friday night when he wrote what was essentially pornography in the form of you will teach what we want. You will tell the students how to behave, you will tell the faculty how to behave. At that point, it was clear that Harvard, to be a self respecting institution, really had no choice. And I wasn't intending to make kind of a financial pitch for Harvard. The real point was that unless we stand together, unless we are in solidarity with one another, unless we come to the aid of any institution, rich or poor, any individual citizen or non citizen, who is either whisked away or muzzled or essentially taken over by the would be dictator, then we are lost. We either hang together, as Abraham Lincoln famously said, or we hang separately. It seems to me that what you just talked about with respect to Harvard is really not unrelated to what you talked about with respect to Mr. Garcia. The question really is, will we stand up to these extraordinary blatant abuses of power, these defiances of judicial decrees, you name it. If it's a way of violating the Constitution in order to assuage Trump's ego, he will do it. And he's threatened to do it. And he carries out his threats. The real question is, will we stand up? And right now the biggest question is will the US Supreme Court stand up? Because it is obvious you don't even have to be a sophisticated as Andrew Weinstein. The fact is, nobody could doubt that the Trump administration is stiffing the courts. They're playing cat and mouse with them. There's no sense in which they are complying. And when this case gets back up to the US Supreme Court, the question is, will the court back down? Will it find some fuzzy way of saying, well, he didn't exactly fail to comply, he didn't exactly defy the courts? Well, they do that to protect themselves from a situation in which they don't have an army to enforce their decrees, or will they stand up? Will the Chief justice and Amy Coney Barrett, those are the two who are needed to join the three liberals in order to make the court essentially tell it like it is. Donald Trump has violated the decrees of the federal judiciary. He has committed any number of constitutional offenses. He has waged war on the United States, which is a form of treason. Will they have this fine to do that, knowing that they may in the end not be able to do anything concrete? Or will they bend over and play dead the way so many law firms and so many institutions have done? I hope that John Roberts, who was one of my students at Harvard Law School, will be as courageous as Barack Obama has been another of my students. You know, you teach at a place like Harvard or any other place and you have thousands of students and you hope that you will give them some moral strength in addition to teaching them the details of law and the history of the country. Some of them have what it takes in terms of character, but some just don't. And this is a time of testing for all of us. We are at a profound crossroads in the history of the United States. We have a president who does not give a wit about the law or the Constitution or about the harm that he imposes on individual human beings. We forget, you know, that the that the prison in El Salvador where Abrago Garcia was tossed, it's not any old prison. It's a torture chamber. It is a penal camp. It is a place where people are worked to death. It is a place from which people never emerge. Did you get that sense from Stephen Miller or from Donald Trump? They seem all too eager to take people, including what they call homegrown criminals, to take these people and toss them away like so much flotsam and jetsam. That is not who we are. We are a decent people and we are a people who now have to stand up to the tyrant. I hope to heaven that everyone within the reach of your program's voice will do that and will recognize that it is now up to all of us not to give in to the tyrant.
- [35:08]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Harvard Law Professor Lawrence Tribe, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
- [35:13]
Nicholas Kristof
Thank you. Thank you very much.
- [35:16]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And coming up, someone who has seen the work of the dictators who Donald Trump admires so much around the world. New York Times Nicholas Kristof will join us next.
- [35:30]
Rachel Maddow
MSNBC PRESENTS MAIN justice each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.
- [35:42]
Andrew Weissman
The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy. I think what we are seeing is Project 2020. This is it coming to fruition.
- [35:53]
Rachel Maddow
Main justice subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content. The first 100 days bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.
- [36:13]
Lawrence Tribe
Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.
- [36:15]
Rachel Maddow
Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.
- [36:18]
Lawrence Tribe
How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?
- [36:24]
Rachel Maddow
The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [36:33]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Today, Politico said, quote, move over Kim Jong Un, Vladimir Putin and Viktor Orban. Donald Trump's latest strongman bromance is with President B. That is President Bukele of El Salvador, who is apparently willing to keep anyone imprisoned in El Salvador who Donald Trump wants to keep imprisoned in El Salvador. During his Oval Office meeting with the President of El Salvador, Donald Trump once again blamed the victim of Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine.
- [37:08]
Nicholas Kristof
Have you spoken to President Zelenskyy, sir, about his offer to purchase more Patriot missile batteries?
- [37:13]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Oh, I don't know. He's always looking to purchase missiles. You know, he's against. Listen, when you start a war, you got to know that you can win the war, right? You don't start a war against somebody that's 20 times your size and then hope that people give you some missiles. If we didn't give them what we gave, remember I gave them Javelins. That's how they won their first big battle with the tanks that got stuck in the mud and they took them out with javelins. Joining us now, Nicholas Kristof, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, New York Times columnist. He recently returned from Sudan. Nick, you've been covering Ukraine. You've been there. And there you have this foreign policy dementia of Donald Trump's saying that President Zelensky started this war.
- [38:03]
Alex Wagner
You know, President Trump has always had this fondness for dictators. I mean, ever since, remember after the Tiananmen Square massacre, he was saying, well, you know, it wasn't so bad. He was sympathetic to the Chinese leaders. And that of course, is fondness for Putin, most recently for President Bukele of El Salvador. And that has been a through line to the degree that we now of course, switch sides in Europe and are undermining NATO and taking the Kremlin position. That moment, Lawrence, when in the UN when we voted with Russia, with North Korea, with Belarus, against all of our European allies, that was really a remarkable historical turning point. But I've got to say that what I find even more disquieting is this consistent support for other authoritarian rulers around the world is the degree to which Trump is now bringing those authoritarian tools here to the US and applying some of those same patterns domestically.
- [39:02]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Yeah. In the case of Abrego Garcia. And you made the point today that in your tweet that, you know, Donald Trump has worked on the release of prisoners in Russia and other places. He's worked on that and he without any actual legal leverage at all. And here he is pretending that he has no ability at all to get Mr. Abrego Garcia out of El Salvador.
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Alex Wagner
I mean, and the fact that we are paying El Salvador to take these prisoners, I mean, obviously if we simply didn't pay them, then they'd be happy to give them up. But yeah, I mean, the claim that he is releasing hostages abroad and then he sends, you know, 238 people to El Salvador to rotten dungeons based on their tattoos, as far as we can tell, and warns that he may do that with American, with American citizens. You know, in the countries where I've covered authoritarian rulers around the world, there's been this pattern where there's a personality cult where they try to consolidate control within the central government, go after other agencies, after the courts, and they go after independent actors like the news media, like lawyers, like universities. And then most frighteningly, they start disappearing people off the streets. And that is what we see with people like Mr. Abrego Garcia.
- [40:27]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Nick, I want to squeeze in a break here because we have more we want to get to, including what Donald Trump has willfully done to starving children. We'll be right back with Nick Kristof. The Washington Post is reporting on a Trump administration memo proposing cutting the budgets of both the State Department and what remains of the United States Agency for International Development. The Post reports that the memo cuts contained in an early proposal from the White House Office of Management and Budget for the next fiscal year would leave a total budget of $28.4 billion. That represents a decline of $27 billion, or 48%, from funding levels approved by Congress for 2025. Nick Kristof is back with us. Nick, you've seen around the world what those kind of cuts would mean.
- [41:24]
Alex Wagner
I mean, it's a tragedy. You know, in Sudan, I saw children starving because we had cut off programs that supplied these emergency packs of peanut paste to keep them alive. It's an incredibly cheap intervention. I, you know, came across the case of a 10 year old boy, an 8 year old girl, a 5 year old boy who had died because antiretrovirals costing 12 cents a day were cut off from them because of These aid cuts, you know, these are kids who'd been kept alive for years with pepfar, you know, a program started by Republicans and, you know, at 12 cents a day. And then this administration let that end. And so these kids died. And kids are going to be dying around the world because of this. And I've got to say, Lawrence, that it's not, you know, it's not just that we're retreating from aid. We're retreating from everything. We're retreating from NATO, we're retreating from the UN, we're retreating from the entire global structure that the US established in 1945, from the strong dollar, from the US's economic pillar of the world, from the trade regime in ways that make the world more dangerous, that increase the risks of a war with Asia, and that create a vacuum that countries like China will fill.
- [42:53]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And what Donald Trump has never understood about any of these choices is that there's more than one incentive and that virtually all of them are self serving to the United States. Even the feeding of starving children in Africa who will never come to the United States. We have reaped dividends from having done that in so many ways, including our international relations support for various things at the United Nations. You could just go on and on.
- [43:22]
Alex Wagner
Absolutely. I mean, when President Kennedy established USAID in 1961, he did it because it reflected American interests as well as American values, and it supported both. And, you know, USAID also did international disease surveillance to prevent the next avian flu from reaching the us, to prevent Ebola from reaching the us, to limit tb, which is incredibly expensive when it reaches the us. And so our interests are protected, but we're also able to save millions of lives in ways that also prevent mass migration. And I also don't want to discount values that when you can save a life of a child so inexpensively, we should take pride in what we've accomplished.
- [44:11]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And we always did. And the value of saving that life was always enough until Donald Trump simply couldn't understand it. Nicholas, Christopher, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
- [44:21]
Alex Wagner
My pleasure.
- [44:23]
Lawrence O'Donnell
We'll be right back. Nicholas Kristof gets tonight's last word.
- [44:32]
Rachel Maddow
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