Lawrence: Donald Trump proves he’s the stupidest man in the Situation Room

Summary

The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell: "Donald Trump Proves He’s the Stupidest Man in the Situation Room"

Release Date: June 19, 2025

In this episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves into a scathing critique of former President Donald Trump's cognitive abilities and political acumen. Drawing upon a detailed transcript of a heated conversation between O'Donnell and Jen Psaki, the episode unpacks various incidents and policies that highlight Trump's perceived incompetence and detrimental impact on both domestic and international affairs.

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1. Introduction: Setting the Tone

The episode opens with Jen Psaki expressing condolences over the loss of Melissa Hartman from Minnesota, emphasizing the human cost behind political stories.

Jen Psaki [01:26]: "It's so easy in the rush of news to lose the actual human beings that are at the center of these stories, especially these tragedies."

O'Donnell echoes this sentiment, highlighting Hartman's contributions as a public servant.

Lawrence O'Donnell [01:42]: "She was a tremendous public servant and human she was and all of the things she did in her time there in the legislature."

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2. Assessing Trump's Cognitive Decline

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Trump's mental state, with Jen Psaki questioning his cognitive abilities and suggesting signs of dementia.

Jen Psaki [02:12]: "Donald Trump's mental decline, which is more and more obvious, started from such a low level of mental processing power that it's hard to track his decline."

She cites instances where Trump's statements reflect confusion and lack of understanding of basic governmental structures.

Jen Psaki [02:24]: "Am I allowed to appoint myself chair of the Federal Reserve?"

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3. Trump's Missteps in the Situation Room

The conversation highlights a specific incident where Trump, during a Situation Room meeting, demonstrated baffling ignorance regarding his authority over the Federal Reserve.

Jen Psaki [06:45]: "Donald Trump asks himself out loud in public if he is allowed to appoint himself chair of the Federal Reserve."

This moment is portrayed as emblematic of Trump's broader inability to grasp key governmental functions, undermining his role as Commander-in-Chief.

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4. Policy Failures: Inflation and Tariffs

O'Donnell and Psaki critique Trump's economic policies, particularly his handling of inflation and the implementation of tariffs, which they argue have had deleterious effects on the U.S. economy.

Jen Psaki [30:55]: "The Republicans are passing a bill that will knock 16 million people out of health insurance... and it's going to increase the national debt even more."

Trump is accused of prioritizing tax cuts for the wealthy at the expense of the broader American population.

Lawrence O'Donnell [32:36]: "They're borrowing against the future... stealing money from seniors and others that need health care."

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5. Foreign Policy and Military Decisions

The episode examines Trump's foreign policy decisions, particularly regarding the Middle East. Psaki criticizes Trump's inconsistent stance on military involvement and his reliance on advisors whose judgments are questioned.

Jen Psaki [08:37]: "Donald Trump began promising White Lotus style beach resorts in Gaza... proof that Donald Trump has no idea what he's talking about whenever he talks."

Additionally, Trump's questionable remarks about military authorization and the use of lethal force against protesters are scrutinized.

Donald Trump [18:28]: "Am I allowed to appoint myself chair of the Fed? I'd do a much better job."

Jen Psaki [22:18]: "The Civil War always seemed to me, maybe that could have been solved without losing 600,000 plus people."

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6. Guest Segment: Nicholas Kristof on Authoritarianism and Trump's Vulnerability

Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Nicholas Kristof joins the discussion to draw parallels between Trump's actions and global authoritarian trends. Kristof emphasizes the potential long-term dangers posed by Trump's leadership.

Nicholas Kristof [36:54]: "Instead of protecting America, Trump may have made our world more dangerous, perhaps for decades to come."

He references historical examples from the Philippines and Brazil to illustrate the resilience of democratic institutions against authoritarianism.

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7. Humanitarian Concerns and Global Impact

The latter part of the episode shifts focus to humanitarian crises exacerbated by policies associated with Trump and his associates. Psaki highlights the consequences of blocked aid, leading to preventable deaths in Africa.

Jen Psaki [43:13]: "Starvation is one of the easiest problems in the world for us to solve. We actually have the solution and know how to do it."

She underscores the moral and national interests intertwined in addressing global malnutrition and disease, criticizing the administration's neglect.

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8. Conclusion: The Road Ahead

In wrapping up, O'Donnell reinforces the gravity of Trump's impact on both the nation's governance and its standing in the international community. The episode calls for a rebirth of liberal patriotism and active engagement to counter authoritarian tendencies.

Nik Kristof [37:32]: "After Trump is gone, we're going to..."

The conversation ends on a somber note, reflecting on the necessity of strong institutions and informed leadership to navigate the challenges posed by figures like Trump.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jen Psaki [02:12]: "Donald Trump's mental decline... hard to track his decline."
• Jen Psaki [06:45]: "Am I allowed to appoint myself chair of the Federal Reserve?"
• Lawrence O'Donnell [32:36]: "They're borrowing against the future... stealing money from seniors."
• Nicholas Kristof [36:54]: "Trump may have made our world more dangerous."
• Jen Psaki [43:13]: "Starvation is one of the easiest problems in the world for us to solve."

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Key Takeaways

• Cognitive Concerns: The episode presents a compelling argument about President Trump's declining cognitive abilities, citing specific instances that question his competence.

• Economic Mismanagement: Trump's policies, particularly on tariffs and national debt, are heavily criticized for their negative impact on the American economy and everyday citizens.

• Foreign Policy Critique: The discussion highlights Trump's inconsistent and often uninformed foreign policy decisions, especially in the Middle East, raising concerns about national security.

• Humanitarian Negligence: The episode emphasizes the severe consequences of halted humanitarian aid, linking policy decisions to preventable global crises.

• Comparative Authoritarianism: Through Kristof's insights, the conversation draws parallels between Trump's leadership and global authoritarian regimes, stressing the importance of resilient democratic institutions.

This episode serves as a critical examination of Donald Trump's leadership, intertwining personal critiques with policy analysis to paint a comprehensive picture of his tenure's perceived failures and lasting impacts.

Transcript

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The Last Word with Lawrence o' Donnell starts right now. Hey, Lawrence.

[Jen Psaki]

Hey Jen. Thank you very much for that report about Melissa Hartman from Minnesota. It's so easy in the rush of news to lose the actual human beings that are at the center of these stories, especially these tragedies.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

No question about it. I had an inter. I talked to Ken Martin on Saturday, who knew her well, and that conversation just stuck with me about what a tremendous public servant and human she was and all of the things she did in her time there in the legislature.

[Jen Psaki]

And that's what we've heard from everyone we've had on our programs from Minnesota who knows her and loved her and who are all suffering so much tonight.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Absolutely.

[Jen Psaki]

Thank you, Jen. Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, if Donald Trump gets dementia, how will we know? Donald Trump's mental decline, which is more and more obvious, started from such a low level of mental processing power that it's hard to track his decline. It's from low to lower. And then there are days like today when Donald Trump asks himself out loud in public if he is allowed to to appoint himself chair of the Federal Reserve. Now, it may be tiresome to hear, but we must not grow weary of making the point that no other president was ever capable of saying anything as stupid or as indicative of dementia as that, Am I allowed to appoint myself chair of the Federal Reserve? And we must not grow weary of reminding ourselves what the White House press corps would have done if Joe Biden ever said anything like that and how big the headlines would be in the next day's print editions of the New York Times and the Washington Post and every newspaper in the country. Because if we grow weary of making the point of how singularly stupid and possibly clinically demented Donald Trump's statements are, then we will become part of the normalization process of those statements which most of the American news media has unwittingly participated in. And 14 year olds in this country will think it's perfectly normal for a president to say those things. And on a day when the president of the United States is reportedly in a meeting in the Situation Room where he is trying to decide how much to support or fully join a war that he opposed a week ago, it must be reported as part of that very same story, that the person who is supposed to be in charge in that Situation Room meeting, the person who is supposed to be the decider in chief, as George W. Bush put it in that meeting, doesn't know if he can appoint himself chair of the Federal Reserve. And some of the highest ranking people in that room with that president also don't know the answer to that question. Pete Hegseth has no idea if Donald Trump can appoint himself chair of the Federal Reserve. Pete Hegseth and Donald Trump have no idea that Donald Trump doesn't even have the legal power to fire the chair of the Federal Reserve. And he also doesn't have the power to unilaterally replace the chair of the Federal Reserve because it requires a confirmation vote by the United States Senate. That's how small the brain is that is sitting at the head of the table in the Situation Room deciding just how much the United States of America should participate in the war between Israel and Iran that Donald Trump all but promised his voters could not possibly occur on his watch. In fact, that's exactly what he promised. Donald Trump spent his entire presidential campaign saying Vladimir Putin would not have dared to launch a full scale war against Ukraine if Donald Trump had been president. Donald Trump spent his entire Presidential campaign claiming that Hamas would not have dared to attack Israel on October 7, 2023. Donald Trump promised no wars if he got elected President. Donald Trump promised he would solve and end Vladimir Putin's war in Ukraine on the first day of his presidency. Donald Trump promised he would bring peace to the Middle east, the entire region on the day of his presidency. And then once in the White House, Donald Trump began promising White Lotus style beach resorts in Gaza. And if that is not a sign of dementia in a 79 year old man, then it is at minimum proof that Donald Trump has no idea what he's talking about whenever he talks. If Donald Trump gets dementia, how will we know? I asked that question on Twitter a week before Donald Trump's first inauguration as president. I asked that question before a group of mental health professionals got together to write a book about what they perceived as Donald Trump's mental health deficiencies. Under the title the dangerous case of Donald 37, psychiatrists and mental health experts assess a president. The co authors of that book appeared on this program and predicted that Donald Trump's mental acuity would get worse over time. And they have been proven correct by Donald Trump. Today, at a hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Senator Richard Durbin released a video demonstrating what he called Donald Trump's cognitive ability.

[Donald Trump]

Don't you need to uphold the Constitution.

[Unknown Speaker]

Of the United States as president?

[Donald Trump]

I don't know. The windmills are driving the whales crazy. Obviously I have concepts of a plan. They're eating the dogs, the people that came in, they're eating the cats, they're eating, they're eating the. I know about magnets. Is this, give me a glass of water, let me drop it on the magnets. That's the end of the magnets. The kidney has a very special place in the heart, right? And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that? By injection inside or almost a cleaning. This is a tough hurricane. One of the wettest we've ever seen from the standpoint of water. When you ran out the healthy arms, you ran out of really healthy. They had great arms, but they ran out. It's called sports, it's called baseball in particular. Can't understand a word he's saying. Did you just see Maduro, Venezuela? It's unbelievable. Well, I don't know about it. I mean, obviously I'm not involved.

[Jen Psaki]

He wants to know why the proclamation was signed in the dark.

[Donald Trump]

I don't know when it was signed. Because I didn't sign it, other people handled it.

[Jen Psaki]

The kidney has a very special place in the heart, is one that I had missed. And it's impossible to keep up with all of the madness that Donald Trump has spewed that no other president was ever stupid enough or demented enough to say. And so, with the mental weakness of Donald Trump in mind, listen to his answer today when asked if he, quote, is moving closer to striking Iranian nuclear facilities. Where's your mindset on that? That was the question. Remember that? That was the question. And remember as you listen to this reply, what a standard presidential reply would be to a question like that. No matter whether the president had already privately made a decision or not. A president would say things like, all options are on the table in order to convey a variety of messages to the parties to the conflict, but still not turn over cards. A president could also say definitively, we have no intention of launching any strikes. That is exactly what Donald Trump's Secretary of State said when this war began. Marco Rubio, who has absolutely no authority, because he's not a real Secretary of State, he's just. Donald Trump's Secretary of State. Marco Rubio issued this written statement a full six days ago. Tonight, Israel took unilateral action against Iran. We are not involved in strikes against Iran and our top priority is protecting American forces in the region. Israel advised us that they believe this action was necessary for its self defense. President Trump and the administration have taken all necessary steps to protect our forces and remain in close contact with our regional partners. Let me be clear. Iran should not target U.S. interests or personnel. Six days ago, that was six days ago. Could not be more clear and could not be more meaningless because that's Donald Trump, Trump's Secretary of State, speaking. And today, when asked about striking Iran's nuclear facilities, Donald Trump said this.

[Donald Trump]

You don't know that I'm going to even do it. You don't know. I may do it, I may not do it. I mean, nobody knows what I'm going to do.

[Jen Psaki]

That obviously includes Donald Trump. That sounds like a person who has no idea what he's going to do. And it sounds like a person who may not be in control of what he does. It sounds like a person who may unknowingly have surrendered control. Control to a persuasion system that has been feeding and corroding what's left of his brain for the entire 21st century. A persuasion system operated by the Australian turned American citizen billionaire Rupert Murdoch, who, according to one of Rupert Murdoch's paid propagandists preys on the weak minds of elderly Fox viewers. What they're doing is what they always do, which is just turning up the propaganda hose to full blast and just trying to, you know, knock elderly Fox.

[MSNBC Host]

Viewers off their feet and make them submit.

[Jen Psaki]

That is Tucker Carlson's explanation for what Rupert Murdoch's Fox propaganda channel is doing to elderly viewers like 79 year old Donald Trump to make them submit to agreeing with sending the American military into a war with Iran. The elderly 79 year old fox viewer living in the White House has a mind that is at least as vulnerable to Rupert Murdoch's persuasion as anyone else glued to the Fox propaganda channel. The New York Times has this account of how the Fox channel did not just staff Donald Trump's administration Cabinet, but also functions as a highly influential team of advisors to Donald Trump, a team of TV advisors that may very well be more influential than the Trump Cabinet, The Times reports Mr. Trump joined his national security team in the White House situation room on Thursday evening as the first wave of strikes was unfolding and was still keeping his options open. Earlier that day he was telling advisors and allies that he still wanted to get a deal with Iran. But as the night wore on and the Israelis landed a spectacular series of precision strikes against Iranian military leaders and strategic sites, Mr. Trump began to change his mind about his public posture. When he woke on Friday morning, his favorite TV channel, Fox News, was broadcasting wall to wall imagery of what it was portraying as Israel's military genius and Mr. Trump could not resist claiming some credit for himself. In phone calls with reporters, Mr. Trump began hinting that he had played a bigger behind the scenes role in the war than people realized. Privately, he told some confidants that he was now leaning toward a more serious escalation going along with Israel's earlier request that the United States deliver powerful bunker busting bombs to destroy Iran's nuclear facility at Fordo. Donald Trump is now failing at trying to manage a huge argument that has divided America's most prominent Trump supporters. Tucker Carlson, who supported George W. Bush's war in Iraq, now opposes American involvement in the newest war in the Middle east and managed to easily humiliate Texas Senator Rafael Cruz by asking him the question how many people live in Iran? Senator Cruz was stumped. Senator Cruz, who favors a full USA vs Iraq style war in Iran, had no idea how many people live in Iran. That video has gone viral of one Trump worshipping ignoramus arguing with an even more ignorant Trump worshiper and Donald Trump's response has been to insult Tucker Carlson for getting fired by Fox after evidence in a defamation lawsuit that Fox lost revealed text messages of Tucker Carlson saying how much he really hates Donald Trump. When Tucker Carlson realized he couldn't make a living after Fox without publicly worshiping Donald Trump, Tucker Carlson fully submitted to that worship. And Donald Trump welcomed Tucker Carlson back into the fold, which is always with Donald Trump, as Elon Musk has found out. A temporary welcome. No president has ever changed the subject as wildly and uncontrollably as Donald Trump. Donald Trump deliberately changed the subject from Elon Musk, accusing him of being named in the investigative files of the criminal pedophilia investigation of Donald Trump's friend Jeffrey Epstein by sending federal troops into Los Angeles. Donald Trump commandeered the California National Guard in order to distract from Elon Musk saying Donald Trump is in the Epstein files and to distract from Elon Musk attacking Donald Trump's budget bill for increasing the national debt by a greater amount than any piece of federal legislation ever has. A federal judge ruled that Donald Trump broke the law by commandeering the California National Guard. But that's just how far Donald Trump was willing to go to change the subject from the Epstein files and his bit in his budget bill, which tonight has a new estimate from the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office saying it will actually increase the national debt even more than they originally projected, now that they have done what Republicans wanted them to do and taken into consideration the dynamics of how the bill will interact with other government action and the rest of the economy. That was an example of Donald Trump deliberately changing the subject, but he also uncontrollably changes the subject by randomly blurting out madness. But none of that seems to be distracting from the public perception of just how much Donald Trump has failed at what voters said was the most important proposition in his candidacy for president the last time, which was his ability to control inflation. 61% of Americans disapprove of Donald Trump's handling of inflation and the cost of living, 60% disapprove of Donald Trump's tariffs and trade policy, and 79% say their economic situation is the same or worse as it was one year ago. Donald Trump promised voters the world, Donald Trump promised voters world peace, and Donald Trump promised voters that the leading economy in the world would soar just by electing him president and inflation would drop dramatically on the first day just by electing him president. And it was all a lie by someone who is so stupid that he thought, or claimed that he thought the tariffs imposed by The United States are paid by other countries. Americans now know who pays those tariffs. Donald Trump's 10 year lie about tariffs is all over. Americans know that Trump tariffs are Trump sales taxes imposed on Americans, paid by Americans only on anything imported into this country, like coffee and bananas and cars and baseball gloves. And because Donald Trump's tariffs have crashed the stock market multiple times and made economic planning for business and the Federal Reserve more challenging than ever, Donald Trump thinks that he can blame inflation and everything that voters fear about his economic policies on the chairman of the Federal Reserve, who Donald Trump appointed and who Joe Biden reappointed and who is a Republican. And so, once again, Donald Trump attacked Republican Jerome Powell, the chairman of the Federal Reserve.

[Donald Trump]

I call him too late, pal, because he's always too late. I mean, if you look at him, every time I did this, I was right, 100%. He was wrong. Maybe I should go to the Fed. Am I allowed to point myself, Doug?

[Unknown Speaker]

I don't know.

[Donald Trump]

Am I allowed to point myself at the Fed? I'd do a much better job.

[Jen Psaki]

That's today. That's his attack today. Now, he never said that in his first term as president. Am I allowed to appoint myself? He was crazy, but he wasn't that crazy. He was stupid, but he wasn't that stupid. And then just to prove how he has no grasp of human relations, no grasp of how to persuade someone who you have no control over to do what you want that person to do. The stupidest man speaking into a microphone in Washington today said more about Jerome Powell, the chair of the Federal Reserve. And because I know Donald Trump's voice dulls the brain of any healthy person trying to make sense of the English language. I am going to read Donald Trump's words exactly as he spoke them without submitting you to the mind dulling, mind fogging experience of the sound of those words coming from Donald Trump's voice. Because in a way, all of the words coming from Donald Trump's voice all the time all sound the same and are just a jumble to our ears so often that we don't really take in each one of them. And sometimes, to clearly hear Donald Trump's cognitive confusion at work, you just need to hear the words spoken by someone else, anyone else. So here's what Donald Trump said about Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell. Now we have a man that just refuses to lower the Fed rate, just refuses to. And he's not a smart person. I don't think he's even that political. I think he hates me. But that's okay. You know, he should. He should. I call him every name in the book trying to get him to do something. I've been nice to him. I do it always. I don't know how to sell. I've been so nice to him, fellas, you wouldn't believe. Let's have dinner. Too late, I call him. Too late. Come on. Too late. Let's have dinner. I do it every way in the book. I'm nasty, I'm nice. Nothing works. He's like a stupid person. That's what he said. That's what he said about how he tries to persuade someone who he has no control over to try to do something that he wants them to do. Calls him a stupid person publicly. Says he's nasty to him, says he's nice to him. Just describes a flow of interpersonal madness that anyone on the other end of that madness would have to ignore just for their own sanity. We must never lose our capacity to be shocked by the sheer stupidity and rank ignorance of Donald Trump. And he gave us an example of that today in the Oval Office that I highlighted here, I highlight here right now, for historians to find 50 years from now, 100 years from now, when they are trying to describe just how stupid and ignorant Donald Trump was, especially how stupid and ignorant Donald Trump was while speaking in the Oval Office. This is one we can really hope future historians do not miss.

[Donald Trump]

A lot of wars, there was no reason for. You look right up there, I don't know, see the Declaration of Independence. And I say, I wonder if you, you know, the Civil War always seemed to me, maybe that could have been solved without losing 600,000 plus people.

[Jen Psaki]

History will find that there was a President of the United States who did not know that the Declaration of Independence was written and signed 85 years before the Civil War. You look right up there, I don't know, see the Declaration of Independence, and I say, I wonder if you. The Civil War always seemed to me maybe that could have been solved without losing 600,000 plus people. That's what he said. So he looks at the Declaration of Independence on the wall and then he thinks that the Declaration of Independence was the product of the Civil War. We've always known that Donald Trump could not possibly pass a high school AP History course. We've always known that Donald Trump couldn't pass any test in any high school history course, but now we know that he couldn't possibly have passed any history test. In my third grade at St. Brendan's Elementary School in Boston, in Dorchester, we knew that order of history. What came first in the third grade? Declaration of Independence, First Revolutionary War, second Civil War, A distant third to those events. There are children in elementary school in America tonight who are laughing at that video that they just saw right now, especially kids on the west coast where this show is airing early enough for them to see it. The psychiatrists promised us in the first year of the first Trump presidency that there was only one direction that his mental health could go. And every day, Donald Trump proves them right. Coming up Today, Donald Trump's incompetent and totally unqualified secretary of defense refused to answer the simple question of whether he has authorized military forces in California to shoot and kill unarmed protesters. That subject is next with California Senator Adam Schuh.

[MSNBC Host]

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[Jen Psaki]

I do think it's worth being very.

[Unknown Speaker]

Clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

[MSNBC Host]

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[Jen Psaki]

Michigan's freshman senator, Alyssa Slotkin is a veteran of government service in the CIA, the Defense Department, in the National Security Council and the White House, and in the Senate Armed Services Committee. Today, she had a simple question for Donald Trump's incompetent and completely unqualified secretary of defense, who had to promise to stop drinking in order to be confirmed by the Republicans in the United States Senate.

[Unknown Speaker]

Have you given the order to be able to shoot at unarmed protesters in any way? I'm just asking the question. Don't laugh. Like the whole country. And by the way, my colleagues at what is that?

[Jen Psaki]

Based on what evidence would you have.

[Unknown Speaker]

That an order like that, giving that order to your predecessor, to a Republican secretary of defense who I give a lot of credit to because he didn't accept the order? He had more guts and balls than you because he said, I'm not going to send in the uniform military to do something that I know and my gut isn't right. He was asked to shoot at their legs. He wrote that in his book. That's not hearsay. So you're poo poohing of this, it just shows you don't understand who we are as a country, who we are. And all of my colleagues across the aisle, especially the ones that served, should want an apolitical military and not wanting citizens to be scared of their own military. I love the military I served alongside my whole life. So I'm worried about you tainting it. Have you given the order? Have you given the order that they can use lethal force against honor? I want the answer to be no. Please tell me it's no. Have you given the order, Senator?

I'd be careful what you read in books and believing it.

[Jen Psaki]

Except for the Bible.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, my God. So your former predecessor. I guess that's not enough for you.

[Jen Psaki]

So no answer. Joining us now is Democratic Senator Adam Schiff of California. He is a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee and a former member of the House January 6th Committee. Senator, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Your California constituents watching that Defense secretary being asked, have the troops been authorized to shoot at unarmed protesters in California? And he refuses to answer the question.

[Donald Trump]

I'm sure Californians and I think people around the country are appalled that the secretary couldn't ask a very simple, straightforward question like that, that either he wanted to leave it ambiguous, to continue to kind of stoke fear and panic among people, or he doesn't know the answer because he is in over his head in this position in every way. But I have to think it's just going to increase the temperature, increase the anxiety. And frankly, things are already fraught enough in the state of California with the decision of the president to ignore the governor, ignore local law enforcement, to federalize the National Guard. And I share what Senator Slotkin said. You know, we have great reverence for the military in California and for our National Guard. They're there for us in storms and hurricanes and floods and fire. And to see them misused this way and the potential of distrust between our Guard and our people, it's just tragic.

[Jen Psaki]

Senator, we know we have a situation here with Israel and Iran. This is a level of actual warfare between those two countries that we haven't gotten to before. What should be happening both in the White House and with the Intelligence committees in Congress. And how should Congress be included in Discussions about what's happening there.

[Donald Trump]

Well, I think what should happen in the White House is they should be laying out for the president, ok, here are the alternatives. Here's what it would mean if the US Goes in and bombs Fordow. This is what the Iranian reaction is likely to be. Here are the risks of escalation. Here are the risks to our troops. If they do attack our troops and any of our troops are killed, we're going to have to respond and we will be in this then, you know, potentially full flown conflict with Iran. They should lay out the consequences of leaving Fordow intact. They should really set it out for the president and provide intelligence to back it up, not just shoot from the seat of their pants. That's what Donald Trump does, that is shoot from the seat of his pants. But they should also be involving Congress in this. We had to beg and plead for a briefing. I've raised this a couple times. I'm glad to see that the administration is going to come brief Congress. They should be submitting this question to Congress. They should seek our authorization. If we're going to be taking a step like bombing Iran. That should be something that is only done constitutionally with Congress's approval. So that's what should be happening. In terms of what is happening, who the hell really knows?

[Jen Psaki]

And you have a Senate now that is controlled by Republicans trying to pass the biggest Medicaid cuts we've seen, a bill that will knock 16 million people out of health insurance. They'll have no coverage whatsoever. While they're also, we have new scores from CBO saying that they're actually going to increase the national debt even more than CBO had originally estimated using one set of estimating principles. But once they incorporated the estimating principles that the Republicans wanted them to incorporate, they discovered that using those principles, it actually will increase the national debt even more.

[Donald Trump]

Well, this is the thing. They're basically borrowing from our kids and our grandkids to fund a tax cut for really wealthy people right now. That's what we're doing. We're borrowing against the future. We're also stealing money from seniors and others that need health care, either through Medicaid or through Medicare. We're taking their money and their health care likewise to fund these tax cuts that we can't afford. They're taking food from hungry families by raiding the SNAP program, also to fund these tax cuts. So it's so irresponsible. And you know, if the Republicans go ahead and pass this, then they should just shut up about the national debt. They should just shut up about deficits because they don't mean anything they have to say about it. They could care less if they could put more money in the pocket of rich people. That's the cost of raising the debt and deficit. They simply don't care. So, you know, if they vote for it, then they just need to shut up about this in the future.

[Jen Psaki]

And Senator, your message about this and the Democrats message generally appears to be dominating in the American public's view of this because the polling on it is just astonishingly unpopular. It is as unpopular a piece of legislation as Washington has ever considered ever passed through the House of Representatives. And that the and the voices being raised against it are yours. And the Democrats, the Republican arguments in favor of it don't seem to be penetrating.

[Donald Trump]

I think that's right. You know, I think we have to credit the American people for seeing this bill for what it is. And I think it's only going to grow more unpopular over time. So you have to ask, why are the Republicans doing this? Why are they doing it if it's going to explode the debt? Why are they doing it if it's so unpopular? And I think the answer is because they're doing it for wealthy people. They're doing it for their donors, they're doing it for their benefactors. They're doing it for themselves. I mean, lots of the folks pushing this in the White House are billionaires and they're going to make more. You know, those who are very wealthy like that can expect millions and millions and millions of dollars more in tax cuts. So this is kind of the gravy train. Ever since Donald Trump became president, he's making money hand over fist through his crypto dealings. The people around him, you know, Witkoff, who's supposed to be working out a deal with Iran, his son is cashing in on crypto. They're all cashing in. And with this big ugly bill for rich people, then all their wealthy friends are gonna cash in, too.

[Jen Psaki]

California Senator Adam Schiff, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Donald Trump]

Thank you.

[Jen Psaki]

And up next, New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof has studied the rise and fall of dictators and wannabe dictators around the world. And he now says Donald Trump is, quote, immensely vulnerable. Nicholas Kristof joins us next.

[MSNBC Host]

MSNBC presents a new original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week, she sits down with NBA coach Doc Rivers.

[Jen Psaki]

The resiliency that you have to have in life and in sports is what eventually will get you to the top.

[MSNBC Host]

The best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now. For early access ad free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Jen Psaki]

Trump is immensely vulnerable. That's the headline of a New York Times opinion column written by our next guest, Nicholas Kristof. Donald Trump's vulnerability played out on the streets of cities and towns across the country this past weekend. On the left side of your screen, the large crowds at the no Kings rallies, which by some estimates was the single largest total protest assembly in the history of the United States. And on the right, the embarrassingly low turnout for Donald Trump to his birthday military parade in Washington. A recent NBC News poll asked the question, which of the following emotions best describes the way you currently feel about the actions the Trump administration has taken so far during its term? A majority, 52%, responded either furious, angry, or dissatisfied. Nick Kristof writes, quote, I've been covering authoritarians around the world my entire career, and so often they seem unassailable as they banned me for life. But it usually turned out to be the dictator's life, not mine. Instead of protecting America, Trump may have made our world more dangerous, perhaps for decades to come. And that will not be easily reversed. But here's the other thing to remember. If Filipinos can win back their country, then surely we Americans can as well. Given the enormous stakes, this is a time for a rebirth of liberal patriotism. So don't emigrate, friends. Stay and fight for your country's future and the world's. Joining us now is Nick Kristof, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist at the New York Times. Nick, remind us about the Philippines and what happened. Because, you know, when I read that reference, I realized, oh, it's long enough ago that it's not fresh of mind to me. And I haven't been using it as a model as I should.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, I mean, you know, just a few years ago when we thought about authoritarianism, you know, we thought about Rodrigo Duterte, the president of the Philippines, who was brutally oppressing people there, journalists in particular, Maria Ressa, famously, and, you know, killing people in large numbers. So what happened? Well, he was pushed out of office and is now in prison in the Hague. And I was talking to Maria Ressa about this, and she said to him, americans, look, don't give up and think of the Philippines when you feel depressed. And I think there's something to that.

[Jen Psaki]

And the places that you're talking about, the domination by the dictator or the autocrat was actually much more severe than it is with an American president trying to do the same thing.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's true. We have stronger institutions and I think those institutions are resilient. And there are other examples as well. You look at Brazil and Bolsonaro was another classic authoritarian. He is now facing trial as well. Now, I keep getting this question, I'm sure you do as well. Is the damage irreversible? And I think that internationally, frankly, the damage is going to be deep. Canadians aren't going to trust us again for a long time, think that other countries, our allies aren't going to trust us to provide a nuclear umbrella. I think it'll be harder to knit together Asian country to stand up to China. I think the international damage is real and long lasting domestically. I look at the Philippines, I look at Brazil, I look at the resilience of institutions. And I think we can fix a lot of things at home, even if we can't necessarily fix the international order. After Trump is gone, we're going to.

[Jen Psaki]

Squeeze in a commercial break here. You're just back from Africa with much to report about what Elon Musk and Donald Trump have wrought there. We're going to be right back with Nick Kristoff.

[J]

Has anyone in the world died because of what Elon Musk did? Listen, yes or no? Reclaiming my time. If you won't answer, that's a loud answer.

[Unknown Speaker]

No one has died because of usai.

[J]

The people who have died as a result of of cutting off the oxygen of a woman in Burma and denying HIV AIDS treatment to those in Africa. They are dead now at the hands of Elon Musk and his co conspirators.

[Jen Psaki]

That was Donald Trump's secretary of state trying to lie to the world about the people, including children and babies who are dying of starvation because Donald Trump and Elon Musk and Marco Rubio have decided that they should die instead of survive with the food and nourishment the United States has consistently provided to starving people in world no matter who was president. Tonight, thanks to Marco Rubio, Elon Musk and Donald Trump, 185,535 boxes of life saving nutrition are stuck in a warehouse of a Rhode island company that makes a life saving peanut paste protein that has made the difference between life and death for children in famine conditions in Africa and elsewhere around the world. Nicholas Kristof wrote this during his last trip to see the starving children that Donald Trump and Marco Rubio and Donald Trump have never seen and never will see. In my journalistic career I've seen children dying from bullets, malaria, cholera and simple diarrhea. But perhaps the hardest to watch are kids who are starving. Their bodies have sores that don't heal, their hair falls out and their skin peels by that point. Even nourishing food doesn't always bring them back. What is most eerie is that such children don't cry or protest. They are impassive with blank faces. That's because the body is fighting to keep the organs functioning and refuses to waste energy on tears or protests. Nick Kristof back with us. Nick, thank you so much for this reporting you're doing on this situation. And thank you for finding the words I think that do describe what it is like to see kids like and when for people who haven't seen them it is just inconceivable. And I don't think if Donald Trump or Elon Musk or Marco Rubio had ever seen them, I don't think they could do what they do.

[Unknown Speaker]

I built up kind of an emotional armor when I go out and do this kind of reporting. But what gets through that armor is when you see a kid dying, especially dying unnecessarily for want of. In the case of a kid dying of starvation, a $1 packe of this peanut paste called RUTF and you know it is sitting in this warehouse in Rhode island and more is sitting in a warehouse outside Atlanta.

[Jen Psaki]

There's a picture of a child right there. Besides getting that, having it right now. And there's nothing else to be done with this product. This is not something that American school children need or have use for.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, no. And it is recognized how much this brings kids back from the brink. It is this life saving substance and the US pioneered this. The US has been a leader in fighting malnutrition. 45% of child deaths worldwide are attributable to severe malnutrition. And it's so cheap to save these lives and yet we not only turn away but we insult these kids by saying nobody is dying. I wish Rubio could come with me on a trip like the one I was just on and go to these villages and these clin and see these kids dying for want of this peanut paste or for want of ARVs if they've got HIV costs less than 12 cents a day and we're cutting off some of these programs and so kids are dying. It just, it is. You know, they talk about waste and abuse in usaid. There's a waste and abuse when this paste is sitting in warehouses and there's waste and abuse when these kids are dying so unnecessarily and you make the.

[Jen Psaki]

Point that starvation is one of the easiest problems in the world for us to solve. We actually have the solution and know how to do it.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's right. There are a lot of problems that are hard. This is one that we can actually solve in simple ways. It's deworming pills which cost almost Nothing. It's this RUTF, this peanut paste. It's promotion of exclusive breastfeeding for six months and for other things, ARVs for AIDS and so on, on. We know how to do this and we've saved so many lives. And I guess I'd also make the point. I mean, I think a lot of people think, well, this isn't our job. What's at stake is not only our values, Lawrence, but our interests. And we may be threatened by Erdoania nuclear program. We're also threatened by Ebola in Liberia. And I'd say that may be a rather greater risk. Tuberculosis that is generated in these countries. Aircraft carriers don't protect us from these diseases. What does is a global surveillance system supported by USAID and efforts to stop these diseases in their tracks. So this is where humanitarianism and national interest converge and we've dropped the ball.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, and we're at a solution stage. I mean, for example, when you go back to the 1980s and we did know how to combat HIV, now we do. Dr. Fauci, George W. Bush instituted a program in Africa that is a solution to the spread of AIDS in Africa. It had been working, saving 25 million lives. Donald Trump, Elon Musk, Marco Rubio say that's it, no more of that.

[Unknown Speaker]

And one of the great triumphs of that program, pepfar, was that we stopped mother to child transmission so that you weren't having babies born. And what I saw in this trip is that because they're running out of HIV test kits which the US had provided, they can't test pregnant moms. They don't know who has hiv. And so we're beginning to see more of this mother to child transmission. To see this happening on our watch, when we had largely stopped this problem, we knew how to address it. And then because of decisions by a bunch of folks in Washington who don't know what they're doing, who are oblivious to this, who will never see the consequences of their actions. And to see that in human terms, to see these babies, it just breaks your heart.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. There is nothing like Nick Kristof. Thank you so much for your reporting and for bringing it to us here. This is just invaluable and we really, really need to hear it. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Unknown Speaker]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[Jen Psaki]

We'll be right back. New York Times Pulitzer Prize winning columnist Nick Kristof, just back from Africa, gets tonight's last word. Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Progressive grassroots group Indivisible's co founder and co executive director, Leah Greenberg.

[Unknown Speaker]

If there's anything we know about successful.

[Jen Psaki]

Movements to defeat autocracies around the world, successful movements to take down dictatorships is that they build broad coalitions, and the coalition may not be united by anything other than their opposition to what is currently happening. And that is okay. That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why Is this Happening?

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