Lawrence: Elon Musk got caught lying and Donald Trump made the lie bigger

Summary

Detailed Summary of "Elon Musk got caught lying and Donald Trump made the lie bigger" The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell – February 27, 2025

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1. Introduction: Setting the Stage

In this episode of "The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell," host Lawrence O'Donnell delves into the intertwined narratives of Elon Musk’s dishonesty and Donald Trump’s amplification of falsehoods. Drawing from his extensive political background, O'Donnell dissects recent events that highlight the troubling dynamics within the Trump administration, particularly focusing on the manipulation of information and its real-world consequences.

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2. Supreme Court Intervention in USAID Funding Dispute

Timestamp: [00:31] - [07:58]

O'Donnell begins by addressing a critical legal battle involving the Trump administration and the Supreme Court. A lower court had mandated the Trump administration to release $2 billion in funding to the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) by midnight. However, Chief Justice John Roberts intervened, issuing a temporary stay on this order until Friday noon.

Notable Quotes:

• Lawrence O'Donnell [00:31]:

  "Chief Justice John Roberts ordered a stay—a pause in that order."

• Andrew Weissman [36:06]:

  "We could have a decision as early as Friday afternoon."

O'Donnell emphasizes the implications of this judicial pause, suggesting it reflects the administration’s attempt to circumvent proper legal procedures. He warns listeners to stay vigilant as the situation evolves, underscoring the potential for significant governmental overreach.

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3. Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s Anti-Vaccine Influence and Measles Outbreaks

Timestamp: [07:58] - [19:19]

The conversation shifts to the impact of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s anti-vaccine stance. O'Donnell highlights a tragic incident in Texas where a child died of measles, attributing this to Kennedy Jr.’s misinformation campaign.

Notable Quotes:

• Lawrence O'Donnell [07:58]:

  "Before Robert Kennedy Jr.'s anti-vaccine preaching took hold, measles was officially declared eliminated from the United States in 2000."

• Rachel Maddow [08:09]:

  "Nothing anyone in that room today does in the next four years will last as long as Social Security."

O'Donnell criticizes the resurgence of measles outbreaks, linking them directly to the anti-vaccine rhetoric propagated by Kennedy Jr. He draws a stark contrast between past achievements in public health and the current decline, attributing the increase in measles cases to the spread of misinformation.

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4. Critique of the Trump Administration’s Cabinet and Elon Musk’s Role

Timestamp: [19:19] - [39:38]

O'Donnell offers a scathing critique of the Trump administration’s Cabinet, focusing on the inclusion of billionaires like Elon Musk. He argues that the Cabinet meetings have devolved into public spectacles filled with lies and minimal substantive discussion.

Notable Quotes:

• Lawrence O'Donnell [12:53]:

  "Mad Dog Mattis. Now, there's a reason they call him Mad Dog."

• Robert Reich [19:19]:

  "The difference is between today's clown show... and a real working government."

O'Donnell laments the transformation of Cabinet meetings from closed-door strategic planning sessions to televised events where factual accuracy is sacrificed for showmanship. He particularly targets Musk, accusing him of dishonesty regarding USAID’s Ebola prevention efforts.

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5. Donald Trump’s Deceptive Narratives to the Press

Timestamp: [19:19] - [33:27]

A significant portion of the episode dissects Donald Trump’s pattern of lying to the White House press corps. O'Donnell highlights instances where Trump disseminated false information about aid to Ukraine, subsidies to Canada, and his commitments to social welfare programs.

Notable Quotes:

• Rachel Maddow [24:19]:

  "The last thing you want to hear when you need your auto insurance most is a robot with countless irrelevant menu options."

• Robert Reich [21:40]:

  "We are now on the verge of a dictatorship."

O'Donnell, supported by insights from Robert Reich, underscores the dangerous implications of a president who consistently lies and manipulates facts. Reich warns of the potential slide into dictatorship, emphasizing the erosion of democratic institutions and the rule of law.

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6. Solicitor General Confirmation Hearing and Presidential Immunity

Timestamp: [33:26] - [45:00]

The episode transitions to a critical analysis of a Senate confirmation hearing for Donald Trump’s nominee for Solicitor General, Rachel Maddow. The discussion centers around the nominee’s defense of Trump’s alleged immunity from prosecution in extreme scenarios, such as ordering SEAL Team 6 to assassinate political opponents.

Notable Quotes:

• Adam Schiff [30:12]:

  "Are you a fool or a coward?"

• Rachel Maddow [27:35]:

  "It seems that's what the answer tells us. He would have done it in a flash."

Senator Adam Schiff confronts the nominee with hypothetical yet alarming questions about presidential conduct and legal accountability. Schiff’s pointed questioning aims to reveal the nominee’s stance on upholding the Constitution over personal or political loyalties, highlighting concerns about the integrity of the Justice Department under the Trump administration.

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7. Dismantling of USAID and the Halt of Ebola Prevention Efforts

Timestamp: [38:57] - [45:00]

Returning to the theme of government failure, O'Donnell discusses Elon Musk’s role in crippling USAID’s capacity to respond to global health crises. Former USAID official Jeremy Kneindy provides firsthand accounts of the agency’s reduced effectiveness under Musk’s leadership.

Notable Quotes:

• Jeremy Kneindy [41:41]:

  "Elon Musk is absolutely full of it... They have dismantled USAID's capability to respond to global outbreaks."

• Lawrence O'Donnell [39:59]:

  "The Ebola prevention program was not restored immediately. There have been no efforts to turn on anything in prevention of Ebola."

Kneindy condemns the administration’s actions, highlighting the dire consequences of halting essential health programs. O'Donnell reinforces the severity of the situation, pointing out the immediate and long-term risks posed to global health and humanitarian efforts due to the administration’s negligence and deceit.

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8. Conclusion: The Dire State of American Governance

In wrapping up the episode, O'Donnell reiterates the alarming trends of dishonesty and incompetence within the Trump administration. He underscores the critical need for accountability and vigilance to safeguard democratic institutions and public welfare.

Notable Quotes:

• Robert Reich [21:40]:

  "We are now on the verge of a dictatorship."

• Lawrence O'Donnell [44:43]:

  "There's really never been a deliberate cruelty like this."

The episode serves as a sobering analysis of the current political landscape, highlighting the urgent need for transparency, truthfulness, and integrity in leadership to prevent further erosion of public trust and institutional stability.

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Key Takeaways

• Judicial Oversight: Chief Justice Roberts’ intervention reflects the judiciary’s role in checking executive overreach, particularly concerning federal funding and agency operations.

• Public Health Risks: Anti-vaccine rhetoric, as propagated by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., directly correlates with increased measles outbreaks, underscoring the dangers of misinformation.

• Cabinet Dysfunction: The inclusion of figures like Elon Musk in the Cabinet has transformed governance into a spectacle, undermining effective policy-making and accountability.

• Presidential Lies: Donald Trump’s consistent falsehoods have severe implications for policy, governance, and the integrity of democratic institutions.

• Legal and Ethical Concerns: The confirmation hearing for the Solicitor General nominee reveals deep-seated issues within the Justice Department, raising questions about the safeguarding of constitutional principles.

• Humanitarian Impact: The dismantling of USAID’s programs jeopardizes global health initiatives, exacerbating humanitarian crises and undermining international stability.

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This episode of "The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell" paints a comprehensive picture of the challenges facing American governance, emphasizing the critical need for truth, accountability, and effective leadership in navigating both domestic and international crises.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Rachel Maddow]

The last thing you want to hear when you need your auto insurance most is a robot with countless irrelevant menu options. Which is why with USAA auto insurance, you'll get great service that is easy and reliable, all at the touch of a button. Get a quote today, restrictions apply. Now it's time for the Last Word with the great Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening. Good evening, Rachel. And thank you for summarizing that breaking news from Chief Justice John Roberts at the Supreme Court. Andrew Weissman, who was joining us on another subject, is switch to this subject so he can take apart every word of that order by the chief justice which in effect gets the Trump administration, as you reported, off the hook at midnight tonight under a previous obligation from a lower court judge ordering them to deliver $2 billion in spending that they had been holding back. So we'll get Andrew's reading of exactly what this means. And with that 12 noon deadline on Friday, we're going to be watching this tomorrow. Yeah, exactly. I know they've bought a little bit of time here, but this is still, this is, I mean, we'll see how they handle this and how much of the merits they get to. But the worrying thing here was here's a judge having to rule over and over and over again. I'm telling you to do a thing, you have to do it. You still haven't done it. No, you have to do it. I'm telling you to do it. You still haven't done it. You have to do it. A judge having to push this hard makes everybody worry for all the, all the worst reasons. Yeah. And here we are, you know, about more than a month into the Trump presidency and he's back in the Supreme Court. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Thank you, Rachel. Thanks, Lawrence. Thank you. Thanks. Well, four years ago, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Who has spent his entire adult life trading on and profiting from his famous father's name, wrote, quote, american and global consumers of measles vaccines will learn that they have been misled by the pharmaceutical industry and their captured government agency allies into believing that measles is a deadly disease. Some mothers believed Robert Kennedy, Jr. When he told them not to worry about measles, some fathers believed Robert Kennedy Jr. And tonight in Texas, a child is dead because of the lies told and advanced around the world by Robert Kennedy Jr. The victim killed by measles is described only as a school aged child. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Who has vaccinated his own children, lies about measles and about vaccines. And those lies are what propelled him into a seat in the Cabinet room today, where his famous father once occupied the Attorney General's seat during cabinet meetings with his famous uncle, John F. Kennedy. Occupying the President's seat in those same cabinet meetings that was the 1960s. In the Cabinet Room today, Robert Kennedy Jr. Showed not the slightest sign of being even slightly moved by a child who was not vaccinated for measles being killed by measles. There have been four measles outbreaks this year in this country. Last year there were 16. So it's not unusual. We have measles outbreaks every year. No big deal. Not unusual on the day a child diesel from his kind of advice. We have measles outbreaks every year thanks to Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Before Robert Kennedy Jr. S anti vaccine preaching took hold in this country, measles was officially declared eliminated from the United States of America in the year 2000. Eliminated. Zero outbreaks, zero deaths. Then came the deadly lies of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. The lies that earned him his chair in the Cabinet room today, where more lies were publicly told in the Cabinet room by more people than any other Cabinet meeting in the history of the White House. In every other presidency, Cabinet meetings were closed door events. They were not clown shows for the cameras. In the pre television age when presidential staffs were much smaller, they relied much more on the cabinet in those Cabinet meetings and those Cabinet meetings were much more substantive and serious. Cabinet meetings held by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt in that same Cabinet room with the door closed and no cameras present, included strategizing for lifting this country out of the Great depression in the 1930s and then even more dramatic, strategizing about how to win World War II in the more modern presidencies. Since then, Cabinet meetings became much less frequent and much less important over time. Today, Donald Trump became the first president in history to invite the richest person in the world to speak in a Cabinet meeting simply because he is the richest person in the world. That's the only reason Elon Musk was invited to today's Cabinet meeting where every member of the Trump Cabinet stared at Elon Musk as if they were staring at their Boss billionaires in the Cabinet is a Trump innovation. Prior to Donald Trump, no president invited a billionaire to be a member of the Cabinet or attend the Cabinet meeting. Donald Trump has at least three billionaires right at the table with him as members of the Cabinet. But Donald Trump's Cabinet billionaires know that they will never come close to being as rich as Elon Musk. But if they worship him enough publicly, Elon Musk might make those billionaires a lot richer in the future by letting them in on some of his deals. And he might do that for Robert Kennedy Jr. And everyone else in that Cabinet room. Today, Elon Musk has received massive government subsidies to achieve his wealth. Elon Musk has invented nothing. Elon Musk invested in an electric car company that already existed, which then became hugely successful by selling electric cars to liberal Americans, mostly in California at first, who thought by buying those electric cars, they were helping to save the planet. And instead, that money from liberal Americans hoping to save the planet made Elon Musk the richest person in the world. And then he used that money to buy the presidency. For someone who doesn't believe climate change is a problem and who wants to burn as much oil as possible, Elon Musk knows more than I do about electric cars. Elon Musk knows more than I do about rockets. But Elon Musk is an utter ignoramus about American history and American government, with his brain warmly bathed in that ignorance. Today, Elon Musk said this.

[Robert Reich]

President Trump has put together, I think, the best cabinet ever. Literally so. And I do not give false praise.

[Rachel Maddow]

He's not from around here, so there's things he doesn't know. He's from South Africa, where you don't learn in elementary school that Thomas Jefferson was Secretary of State, that Alexander Hamilton was Secretary of the Treasury. You don't grow up in South Africa having the slightest idea who was in Abraham Lincoln's Cabinet or Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Cabinet. He stood in that Cabinet room today having absolutely no idea who. Frances Perkins is the first woman member of a Cabinet. President Roosevelt's Secretary of Labor. She created the biggest, most enduring, most important program in the history of American government, Social Security. That was her idea and she got it done. Nothing anyone in that room today does in the next four years will last as long as Social Security. Nothing Elon Musk ever does in his life will last as long as what Francis Perkins created as Secretary of labor in 1935, which, in addition to Social Security, includes things like the minimum wage, the 40 hour workweek, things that have become so essential to the fabric of American life that people think that they were always there. But no, those were Francis Perkins ideas. When Elon Musk took up residence in Canada at age 17, he certainly didn't spend his time studying American history or American government. One of the joys for Donald Trump, no doubt, of having Elon Musk in the Cabinet Room with him today is that for the first time in the Cabinet Room, Donald Trump might not be the most ignorant person in the Cabinet Room about American government. Donald Trump took questions from very tame, very well behaved, mild mannered members of the White House press corps in the Cabinet Room who did not scream questions at him the way they always screamed their questions at Joe Biden. They didn't. And the way they screamed their questions at Joe Biden's press secretary, they didn't do that. And to every question, Donald Trump gave a response that included at least one lie. Every single one of them. And on the day that Donald Trump was doing that, as if on cue, Washington was graced with an article praising Donald Trump for taking more questions in his first month than President Biden did in his first month or President Obama did in his first month. The National Journal frequently does good work, but it is frequently imprisoned in the conventions of the Washington press corps. And there's nothing the Washington press corps cares about more than asking presidents questions. And I mean, they care about the questions, they do not care about the answers. And they prove that they do not know that a lie is not an answer. And so, yes, Donald Trump took more than a thousand questions in his first month and he did not answer any of them because a lie is not an answer. Having watched how easy it is for Donald Trump to lie to the White House press Corps, Elon Musk has decided to do exactly the same thing. One of the lies he told today was that he restored the funding of Ebola prevention and there was no interruption in it. And that is not true. As Rachel pointed out in the last hour, that is a lie. As we'll report in more detail later in this hour, Donald Trump, in an echo of his joy about the nickname for his first Secretary of defense, reveled in the nickname for his choice of Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Retired General Dan Kaine. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Yes, sir. And Raisin Cain. I liked him right from the beginning. As soon as I heard his name, I said, that's my guy. Raisin Cain. That's my guy. The guy who chooses people based on their nicknames is, is not going to give you the best cabinet ever. We are going to appoint Mad Dog Mattis as our Secretary of Defense, but we're not announcing it till Monday, so don't tell anybody. Mad Dog, he's great.

[Robert Reich]

He is great. General, as you know, James, Mad Dog.

[Rachel Maddow]

Shouldn'T say it in this room. Mattis. Now, there's a reason they call him Mad Dog. Mattis never lost a battle. He lost his battle with Donald Trump. When Donald Trump's first Secretary of defense, General James Mattis, resigned his position as Secretary of Defense, Donald Trump instantly claimed that. He claimed that he fired him. And then Donald Trump spent years publicly attacking him, even though he used to love his nickname. Donald Trump. Trump's lies today about assistance to Ukraine. It's a lie he cannot stop telling. As you know, we're in for probably $350 billion. Europe is in for $100 billion, and that's a big difference. So we're in for probably three times as much. Donald Trump lied about all of those numbers, and he told the lie that Europe has only loaned the assistance to Ukraine, and Ukraine will have to pay it back, but the United States will not be paid back. Here's the truth. Europe has delivered much more aid to Ukraine than the United States. Europe has delivered $138 billion in aid to Ukraine, and the United states has delivered $119 billion in aid to Ukraine. That's it. Not $300 billion. The United States has not done that. Donald Trump more than doubled the amount of aid the United States has sent to Ukraine in his lie today, and not a single White House reporter objected in any way challenged Donald Trump in any way about telling that lie straight to them. They just counted as another question answered by Donald Trump. There are some very good White House reporters. Very good. But enough of them are so weak and ineffectual that they become essential components of the clown show themselves. They are characters in the clown show. Elon Musk turns them into clowns by lying to them and getting away with it right in front of them, with none of them daring to challenge Elon Musk's lies directly to them. And of course, they do the same thing with Donald Trump. They've always done the same thing with Donald Trump. Donald Trump said something today that would have provoked any other cabinet, for any other president to immediately have a meeting about invoking the 25th Amendment to remove that president from office for mental incompetence. Canada should be our 51st state. Donald Trump said. Canada should be our 51st state. If any previous president had said that he would have been immediately rushed to the hospital. And not one White House reporter challenged Donald Trump on that insane statement. And Donald Trump's accompanying lie that we subsidized. That was his word, subsidized. Canada with $200 billion a year. The United States of America does not subsidize anything in Canada. The United States of America does not send subsidies to Canada. Never has, never will. But there is no evidence that anyone in the White House press corps even knows that. Not if you listen to the way they swallow those lies that the Washington press corps fully respects and accepts as answers from the president to their important questions. But maybe the biggest failure of the White House press corps today was when Donald Trump said that he is not going to cut Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid. And Donald Trump said nothing about the fact that the Republican House of Representatives voted to cut Medicaid by 880 billion billion in a budget resolution that Donald Trump supports last night. Can you guarantee that Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security will not be touched? Yeah. I mean, I have said it so many times. You shouldn't be asking me that question. Okay, this will not be read my lips. It won't be read my lips anymore. We're not going to touch it. That was the best and most important question of the day. And Donald Trump just said, we're not going to touch Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security. And not one reporter in the room said to him, why did you touch it last night? Why did you support the Republican budget resolution last night in the House of representatives that cuts $880 billion from Medicaid? Donald Trump said, we're not going to touch it. After touching it last night and him personally helping to round up the final votes to pass that resolution to cut Medicaid, the 200-year-old man appeared in the Cabinet Room today when Donald Trump invoked his lie about people 200 years old receiving Social Security. Remember when Elon Musk got caught lying about people with birthdays 150 years ago receiving Social Security? Elon Musk shut up about it. After he got caught lying, what did Donald Trump do? He made the lie bigger. The 150-year-old man became the 200-old man. It was a day of false praise in the Cabinet Room and false praise by the Washington press corps for Donald Trump taking their questions more than other presidents have taken their questions. And absolutely no concern exhibited whatsoever by the Washington press corps when Donald Trump responds to their questions with the craziest lies ever spoken by a president of The United States. Leading off our discussion tonight is Robert Reich, who served as Secretary of Labor in the administration of President Bill Clinton. He's professor of Public Policy at UC Berkeley and co founder of Inequality Media. Robert Reich, I very much wanted someone who's been in that room, who's been in the Cabinet room, in a real Cabinet meeting with the door closed. What's the difference between what you experienced in the Cabinet room and what you saw there today?

[Robert Reich]

The difference, Lawrence, is between today's clown show, which was a theatrical performance for the press, and a real working government where people roll up their sleeves and do the hard work, and it is hard work of trying to figure out what the public needs and how to deliver public policies. There could not be a larger and sharper distinction between what we saw today and what the CAB actually does when it is governing.

[Rachel Maddow]

The point that I isolated there, the Medicaid cuts, there's Donald Trump saying, again, it's right there. It's on, it was recorded, it's in the transcript, that they're not going to touch Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid. They passed a budget resolution last night that specifically instructs the Energy and Commerce Committee to cut Medicaid by 880 billion, the biggest Medicaid cut in history.

[Robert Reich]

Well, the man lies. We know that. I mean, Lawrence, we have lived through his lies now for eight years. He lied for four years when during the first term. And then he lied about not being, you know, that he was that, that the election was stolen from him. This man does not know how to tell anything but lies. And the people he pointed to, his Cabinet, the only qualification they have is that they are totally personally loyal to Donald Trump. They are not loyal to the United States. They are loyal to him. The press corps who is there today, well, they were intimidated. They are intimidated by Donald Trump. They were there at his request. He did not allow in some members of the press who he didn't like. And that's the way he intimidates, he punishes and he rewards as if he were a dictator. And the sad to say, Lawrence, and it gives me enormous pain to say this because I've spent part of my life working in government for the American people. We are now on the verge of a dictatorship.

[Rachel Maddow]

Say more about that. We only have a minute left, but please expand on that point.

[Robert Reich]

We have a president who is not only taking power from Congress. Basically, the power of the purse is no longer a power that Congress has. That's the Most important Article 1 power that Congress actually possesses. He is saying no, he has the power of the purse in terms of what is spent and how it's spent. He's taking power away from the Article 3 of the Constitution judiciary. How is he doing that? He has actually said, I am not bound by the federal courts. If I disagree with the federal courts, what this means. What this means is tyranny.

[Rachel Maddow]

Former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it.

[Robert Reich]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[Rachel Maddow]

And coming up, the Trump criminal defense lawyer who told appeals court judges that it would not be a crime for Donald Trump to use SE Seal Team 6 to assassinate his political opponents said the same thing today in his Senate confirmation hearing for the job of Solicitor General of the United States. Senator Adam Schiff asked about SEAL Team 6 today in that confirmation hearing. He will join us next. Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen. You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are. Download the SiriusXM app for over 425 channels of ad free music, sports, entertainment and more. Subscribe now and get 3 months free offer details. Apply CIDP is no walk in the park. It can make your daily routine feel not so routine. The good news? There's a treatment option for chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy that may fit into your routine. Discover [e-mail] and talk to your doctor. That's innovationforcidp.com brought to you by Argenyx. The last thing you want to hear when you need your auto insurance most is a robot with countless irrelevant menu options. Which is why with USAA auto insurance, you'll get great service that is easy and reliable, all at the touch of a button. Get a quote today, restrictions apply.

[Adam Schiff]

You took the position as Donald Trump's lawyer that he could order SEAL Team six to assassinate a political opponent and not be prosecuted for it unless he was impeached first. Should the president order the use of violence against the political appointment, will that continue to be your position as the lawyer for the United States? Will you represent to the court that any prosecution should be dismissed if the president is not first impeached?

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator, I believe the exchange that you're referring to, which occurred during oral argument in the D.C. circuit in that presidential immunity decision, I was asked a question about that and what I responded was that the President may be prosecuted for an action like that. But under the plain language of the impeachment judgment clause, he must be first impeach and convicted by the Senate. The Supreme Court disagrees about that plain language. The Supreme Court flatly rejected his argument that a president can only face criminal trial after being impeached by the House of Representatives and convicted by the Senate. The Supreme Court said, quote, transforming the political process of impeachment into a necessary step in enforcement of criminal laws finds little support in the text of the Constitution. But that did not prevent Donald Trump's criminal appeals lawyer from making that same failed argument again today in his confirmation hearing to become Donald Trump's Solicitor General, the attorney who represents the Justice Department in all arguments to the Supreme Court. Here is that moment in the federal appeals court in Washington last year when John Sauer was trapped in the painful logic of his own rejected argument by Appeals Court Judge Florence Pan.

[Robert Reich]

Could a president order SEAL Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? That's an official act. In order to seal Team 6, he.

[Rachel Maddow]

Would have to be and would speedily be impeached and convicted before the criminal prosecution.

[Robert Reich]

What if he weren't? There would be no criminal prosecution, no criminal liability for that.

[Rachel Maddow]

Chief Justice's opinion and marbur against Madison and our Constitutional commission and the plain language of the impeachment judgment clause all clearly presuppose that what the founders were concerned about was not.

[Robert Reich]

I asked you a yes or no question. Could a president who ordered Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival who was not impeached, would he be subject.

[Rachel Maddow]

To criminal prosecution if he were impeached and convicted first?

[Robert Reich]

So your answer is.

[Rachel Maddow]

My answer is qualified. Yes. So after the professional humiliation of telling the federal appeals court that the president can indeed order Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival, and after having that argument flatly rejected by the United States Supreme Court, Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer was still clinging to that argument today.

[Adam Schiff]

My question is Donald Trump using his office to assassinate a political opponent? If he's not impeached for it, would you defend against any prosecution as Solicitor General?

[Rachel Maddow]

The hypothetical you've offered respectfully is so outlandish, I don't know if I'm in position to address it.

[Adam Schiff]

You addressed it for the court, but you won't address it for the country in this hearing?

[Rachel Maddow]

I think I've just said exactly the same response.

[Adam Schiff]

Okay, then exactly the same response is that you would evidently defend him against prosecution for that.

[Rachel Maddow]

Joining us now is Democratic Senator Adam Schiff of California. He's a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Senator, one of the things I was struck by is he had a long time to work on his answer in preparation for this confirmation hearing, and he stuck back where he was with the appeals court.

[Adam Schiff]

Well, that's exactly right. He could have said, well, I made that argument before the court appeals. It was rejected by the Supreme Court. They said there's nothing in the Constitution that requires that. So that's not my position. That wouldn't be my position. But of course, it still is his position. Which gets to the fundamental flaw with these Donald Trump criminal defense lawyers becoming the top lawyers of the Justice Department. And that is they never leave behind the representation of Donald Trump, the person, not the office of the presidency, not the American people. In fact, I asked him also during that hearing, will you recuse yourself from any case that you were involved in as his personal defense lawyer? And I got the same answer I got from Todd, Blanche, and Bondi, which was, I'll consult the career ethics lawyers. The problem with that, Lawrence, as you know, and as I pointed out to him in the hearing, is they're gone. Those career ethics lawyers are gone. They've been demoted, dismissed, transferred out. And the two people running that office now, one is another Trump criminal defense lawyer, and one is the former chief of staff for Emil Bove, someone who only graduated from law school a few years ago. So, Lawrence, you can picture the scene in the Justice Department if this guy's confirmed where he asks one of Trump's other criminal defense lawyers, should I recuse myself from this case? And the other criminal defense lawyer for Trump says, I don't think so, but maybe I should recuse myself from advising you on it because I was involved in the same case to which you could imagine sour pieces. No, you don't need to recuse yourself. I mean, it's that kind of absurdity that is becoming the Justice Department. And, you know, the losers here are going to be the American people and the rule of law.

[Rachel Maddow]

You also asked the nominee a question I've never heard before in a Senate confirmation hearing. Are you a fool or a coward? Let's just take a look at that part of the questioning.

[Adam Schiff]

The department moved to dismiss a corruption case against the mayor of New York. The acting Southern District of New York U.S. attorney refused to undertake an action that she believed was deeply unethical. So then it fell on her, number two, Hagen Scotten, to do the dirty deed of dismissing this case. This is what he said. Any assistant U.S. attorney would know our laws and traditions do not allow using the prosecutor prosecutorial power. To influence other citizens, much less elected officials in this way. If no lawyer with an earshot of the president is willing to give him that advice, then I expect you will eventually find someone who is enough of a fool or enough of a coward to file your motion. But it was never going to be me. My question to you, Mr. Sauer, is would that be you? Would that be you if it fell to you to dismiss that case, Would you be the coward or fool willing to dismiss that case on behalf of the president?

[Rachel Maddow]

I certainly can't speak to any official action that I might or might not take. In a hypothetical scenario, I will say that there was a distressing lack of letters like this during the weaponization of justice.

[Adam Schiff]

Well, there is a disturbing presence of letters like this. And your answer tells me that it would be you.

[Rachel Maddow]

It seems that's what the answer tells us. He would have done it in a flash.

[Adam Schiff]

You know, that is, sadly, the case. And I continue to be just astonished by this situation in New York. You have a mayor charged with serious corruption. You have the president intervening to dismiss the case. And why? Because apparently the mayor is willing to do his bidding on immigration if the case is dismissed. You have the prosecutor handling the case, alleging that she was present when this quid pro quo was being discussed. And you have now, I think, six prosecutors at SDNY and a justice who resigned rather than do this dirty deed. And my question to this nominee is, would that have been you? Would you have stood your ground? Would you have done the principled thing like these six prosecutors, or would you be the coward or fool that this prosecutor was referring to who was willing to sacrifice everything they're supposed to believe in as a member of the bar? And sadly, the answer is, yeah, I'll do the deed. I want the job that badly. I'll do the deed. And I tell you, because those prosecutors that we saw in New York at a justice who resigned, and because of these other patriots in other offices who are resigning, there's some real profiles in courage. The tragedy of our time is that those profiles in courage turn out to be so rare.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah. And Danielle Sassoon, the lead prosecutor who resigned, is a registered Republican, member of the Federalist Society, was a clerk for Republican appointed federal judges, Supreme Court Justice Scalia. So this did not come from the left side of our politics. Senator Adam Schiff, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Adam Schiff]

Thank you.

[Rachel Maddow]

And coming up, Andrew Weissman will join us. He'll explain what Chief Justice John Roberts just ruled about this order on a lower court judge ordering the Trump administration to deliver $2 billion in funding to the United States Agency for International Development. John Roberts says pause at least until Friday. Andrew Weissman will explain. That's next. Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen. You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are. Download the SiriusXM app for over 425 channels of AD, free music, sports, entertainment and more. Subscribe now and get 3 months free offer details Apply CIDP is no walk in the park. It can make your daily routine feel not so routine. The good news? There's a treatment option for chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy that may fit into your routine. Discover more at innovation for cidp.com and talk to your doctor. That's innovation4cidp.com brought to you by Argenics. Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving? Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports. Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time, help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast breaking news at the United States Supreme Court tonight, a lower court judge, federal judge, ordered the Trump administration to unfreeze $2 billion in USAID funding United States Agency for International Development and deliver that funding by midnight tonight. With about two hours left on the clock tonight, Chief Justice John Roberts ordered a stay a pause in that order. Joining us now is Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel, former chief in the Criminal Division of the Eastern District of New York. He's also an MSNBC legal analyst. Andrew, what did the Chief justice do?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Sure. So this is funding. That's USAID funding. This is something that's committed by the agency to all sorts of good and sufficient reasons to have it go out and it's committed funds. And so the district court was saying, just because you don't like Joe Biden, the fact that this was committed in a prior administration does not give you the right, without proper procedures to Just cut it off. I mean, frankly, there's going to be all sorts of lawsuits if you do that, including breach of contract. So that was the decision of the district judge. The government, without waiting for the court of appeals, went directly to the Supreme Court, didn't wait for the court of Appeals. By the way, sound familiar with things that we've heard in the Biden administration where Trump was trying to avoid that sort of speed. And so here, anyway, all that Chief Justice Roberts did is pause this. So people shouldn't overreact. It doesn't mean that they're going to do this for a long time. But he basically said we're going to have all of the papers from the other side by Friday. So it's a short what's called administrative stay. But if I were a listener to this, I would have two thoughts. Gee, when they want to act quickly in a way that helps the Trump administration, they have no problem acting really quickly. When in the presidential immunity case, they managed to delay and essentially forestall the criminal trial for months and months and months and months. But here they act on a dime and they didn't wait, the government didn't, for the court of Appeals and follow the sort of proper order, which is district court, court of Appeals, Supreme Court. By the way, the Court of Appeals, the D.C. court of Appeals did in the interim say that they agreed with the district judge that this is money that should go out and that this even an appealable order. So anyway, let's wait and see what the court does. But we could have a decision as early as Friday afternoon.

[Rachel Maddow]

And who makes the next decision? Is this something the chief can still be doing on his own, or does he have to bring in the entire court?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

He's going to bring in the entire court. This is one where he will not on his own issue some sort of stay other than this short administrative stay. We're going to see the whole court weigh in on this. But this is, you know, one of many, many, many cases that we should keep our eye on that are going to be heading up to the Supreme Court. There's a lot to say about it in terms of the evolving position of the government here. They are taking a very different position now than they did in the district Court. It'll be interesting to see how much they get called out for that.

[Rachel Maddow]

Andrew Weissman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You're welcome.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you. Coming up, Elon Musk lied in the Cabinet Room today about what his cruelty has done to the United States Agency for International Development and the people whose lives depend on it, including the prevention of Ebola. And that is next with former USAID official Jeremy Koninden. Elon Musk has never once publicly spoken about his role in the Trump administration without lying. And he lied again today in the Cabinet Room.

[Robert Reich]

We will make mistakes. We won't be perfect, but when we make mistakes, we'll fix it very quickly. So, for example, with usaid, one of the things we accidentally canceled very briefly was Ebola. Ebola prevention. I think we all want Ebola prevention. So we restored the Ebola prevention immediately and there was no interruption.

[Rachel Maddow]

That is a lie. There was an interruption and they did not restore it. The Ebola prevention program was not restored immediately. It has not been restored. The Washington Post reports. Current and former USAID officials said that Musk was wrong. USAID's Ebola prevention efforts have been largely halted since Musk and his Department of Government Efficiency Allies moved last month to gut the Global Assistance Agency and freeze its outgoing payments. The teams and contractors that would be deployed to fight an Ebola outbreak have been dismantled. They have not been restored. Elon Musk was lying about that. They have been dismantled, the Washington Post continues. There have been no efforts to turn on anything in prevention of Ebola and other diseases, said Nidhi Buri, who served as a senior USAID official during the Biden administration and oversaw the agency's response to health care outbreaks. The full spectrum, the investments in disease surveillance, the investments in what we mobilized, moving commodities, supporting lab workers. That capacity is now a tenth of what it was. There was a waiver for Ebola, but USAID funds have never been back online, said a current official. USAID has been frozen staff and money. Joining us now is Jeremy Kneindy. He served as USAID official in the Biden administrations and the Obama administration. Thank you very much for joining us again tonight. I want to just kind of open your microphone to the current situation at usaid. What you heard Elon Musk say today.

[Jeremy Kneindy]

Yeah, Elon Musk is absolutely full of it. As you said, he lied in he lied to the president. He lied to the Cabinet. He's lied to the American people. The Ebola team at USAI is down to almost zero. The outbreak team at USAID is down to almost zero. They have dismantled USAID's capability to respond to global outbreaks. And that was a capability that I oversaw and helped to build during the Obama administration when I oversaw the agency's response to Ebola in West Africa in 2014. We do not have the ability as a government to do now what we did then. And that is thanks to Elon Musk.

[Rachel Maddow]

What else is suffering at usaid? Because Secretary Rubio said very quickly in this crisis that, oh, no, no, all the life saving stuff we're going to turn back on immediately.

[Jeremy Kneindy]

Yeah, that's clearly a sham. It was originally a hopeful moment. It seemed like maybe they would be reasonable about at least avoiding killing thousands, tens of thousands, potentially over time, millions of people, by at least sustaining some of those life saving programs. That is now a sham. I think that's the only word for it. What they were doing today, this afternoon while Elon Musk was lying in the cabinet room, was canceling more than 90% of USAID's remaining global programs. They canceled many programs that had received waivers from Secretary Rubio just in the past few weeks because they were lifesaving in nature. So, you know, the whole sort of fig leaf that they have had that this was just a review, that they were not going to do anything too drastic and end life saving programs. That's been completely blown up by their behavior today.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah. And basically gutting pepfar, the President's initiative on the spread of AIDS in Africa, which has been crucial, which has saved 25 million lives or more. And now tonight, people's lives are at risk because of the ending that literally taking food out of the mouths of starving babies and famine sections of Sudan. There's really never been a deliberate cruelty like this. That is supposed to be an agency that exists to deliver that food. No other purpose but to put that food in the starving baby's mouth.

[Jeremy Kneindy]

Yeah. The U.S. government feeds tens of millions of people in humanitarian crises around the world every year. They have now canceled much of that. One of the things that they canceled was a contract with an American with two American companies that produce the therapeutic treatment that is used to treat malnourished children. So that is a great story. It's an amazing product. It can literally bring children back from the brink of death. It's produced here by American Products. American farmers grow the peanuts that are used to make it. That's now been canceled.

[Rachel Maddow]

Jeremy Kneindy, thank you very much for joining us again tonight and keeping us up to date on this trend. Tragic story. Thank you. Hey, I'm journalist Sam Sanders. I'm poet Saeed Jones. And I'm producer Zack Stafford. And we are the hosts of a.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Podcast called Vibe Check.

[Rachel Maddow]

On Vibe Check, we talk about everything, news, culture and entertainment and how it all feels. That's right. We talk about any and everything on our show from real life issues like.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Grief to music and movie critiques and that.

[Rachel Maddow]

That barely scratches the surface. Yes, indeed. And it doesn't stop there. We have got a lot to say, so join our group, chat, come to life, follow and listen to vibe check wherever you get your podcasts.