Lawrence: Every president but Trump always began with sympathy after a plane crash

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Episode Title: Lawrence: Every president but Trump always began with sympathy after a plane crash
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell, MSNBC
Release Date: January 31, 2025

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Introduction

In this emotionally charged episode, Lawrence O’Donnell delves into the tragic mid-air collision that resulted in the loss of 64 lives, including passengers from the Skating Club of Boston. Drawing parallels with historical aviation disasters, O’Donnell critiques the unprecedented response from former President Donald Trump, highlighting a departure from traditional presidential sympathy.

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Historical Context and Presidential Responses

O’Donnell begins by reflecting on how every U.S. president, except Donald Trump, has historically responded to aviation tragedies with sympathy rather than blame. He references a 1982 plane crash into the Potomac River, where President Ronald Reagan, unlike Trump, did not assign blame, despite controversial decisions such as the 1981 firing of over 11,000 air traffic controllers—a move that significantly impacted the aviation industry.

Notable Quote:

"Every previous president, in reacting to such events, such tragedies, has always begun with sympathy, including the only president who could have been blamed for an accidental plane crash and wasn't."
— Lawrence O'Donnell [07:06]

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Live Coverage of the Recent Plane Crash

The episode transitions to O'Donnell's live coverage of the recent aviation disaster involving an American Airlines flight from Wichita, Kansas, and a military helicopter. The collision resulted in no survivors, intensifying national grief and a search for explanations.

O’Donnell expresses his hopes for heroic rescue efforts reminiscent of past tragedies but notes the grim reality of this incident.

Notable Quote:

"America woke up to the news that all 64 passengers and crew... were gone. No survivors."
— Lawrence O'Donnell [11:46]

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Interview with Sully Sullenberger

Guest: Sully Sullenberger, former airline pilot and U.S. Ambassador to the International Civil Aviation Organization.

Sullenberger shares his reflections on the tragedy, emphasizing the immediate response and heroism exhibited by first responders and bystanders like Lenny Skutnik, who saved lives despite not being a professional rescuer.

Notable Quote:

"Yesterday we saw a partnership... and there was just a bystander who saw a woman lose her grip... and he saved her life."
— Sully Sullenberger [07:06]

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Tribute to the Victims and Lenny Skutnik

O’Donnell honors the victims, detailing their backgrounds and connections to the Skating Club of Boston. He recounts the earlier tragedy in 1961, drawing a poignant comparison to the current loss.

Notable Quote:

"Christine Lane was traveling with her son... Justina Beyer... Evgenia Shishkova... Vadim Namov."
— Lawrence O'Donnell [08:18]

Rachel Maddow complements this narrative by highlighting Skutnik's heroism and contrasting it with Trump’s lack of empathy.

Notable Quote:

"There's nothing about Lenny Skutnik, not his humility, not his heroism, nothing about him that Donald Trump could ever understand."
— Rachel Maddow [08:18]

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Interview with Senator Mark Warner

Guest: Senator Mark Warner, Democratic Senator from Virginia and Vice Chairman of the Select Committee on Intelligence.

Warner discusses the immediate impact of the crash on his home state, the collaborative efforts of first responders, and criticizes premature political speculations about the cause of the accident.

Notable Quote:

"It's irresponsible, it's frankly inexcusable, and it's extraordinarily inappropriate to those families who are still grieving."
— Mark Warner [29:17]

Warner also addresses Trump’s controversial statements blaming the gender and race of those involved, expressing his disgust.

Notable Quote:

"Not surprised, disgusted."
— Mark Warner [18:32]

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In-Depth on the Senate Intelligence Committee Hearing

The episode shifts focus to the Senate Intelligence Committee's hearing involving Tulsi Gabbard and the contentious questioning of Edward Snowden's status as a traitor.

Notable Highlights:

• Senator Mark Warner pressures Tulsi Gabbard with a direct question about Edward Snowden, which she deflects.
• Rachel Maddow critiques both parties for their handling of the questioning, noting unprecedented bipartisan pressure on Gabbard.
• Warner asserts that not labeling Snowden as a traitor undermines national security and the integrity of intelligence sharing with allies.

Notable Quote:

"If you can't call him out as a traitor... you shouldn't have that job."
— Mark Warner [31:01]

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Discussion on Kashyap Patel’s FBI Nomination

The episode further examines the nomination of Kashyap Patel for FBI Director, highlighting his controversial confirmation hearing where he pleaded the Fifth Amendment, a first in FBI director nominations.

Key Points:

• Bernard Kerik, accompanying Patel, criticizes his qualifications and honesty.
• Andrew Weissman, legal analyst, argues Patel fails to meet the legal and factual standards expected of an FBI Director.
• Rachel Maddow emphasizes the gravity of Patel’s evasiveness and its implications for national security.

Notable Quote:

"He did not... accept violence against law enforcement. I've worked with these men and women."
— Bernard Kerik [43:46]

Notable Quote:

"He failed on both counts [law and facts]."
— Andrew Weissman [42:19]

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Conclusion

Lawrence O’Donnell wraps up the episode by underscoring the need for compassion and proper leadership in times of tragedy. He reiterates his criticisms of the current administration's handling of the plane crash and emphasizes the importance of allowing experts to conduct thorough investigations without political interference.

Final Note:

"We need to stick to the facts and stop speculating."
— Lawrence O'Donnell [24:09]

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Key Takeaways

• Presidential Sympathy: O'Donnell contrasts traditional presidential responses to aviation disasters with Trump’s atypical reaction.
• Tragic Loss: Detailed homage to the victims of the recent mid-air collision, emphasizing the human cost and historical context.
• Political Critique: Strong condemnation of Donald Trump’s remarks blaming gender and race in the context of the crash.
• Confirmation Hearings: Insight into the contentious Senate hearings involving Tulsi Gabbard and Kashyap Patel, highlighting deep political divisions and concerns over national security.
• Expert Opinions: Interviews with key figures like Sully Sullenberger and Senators Warner and Duckworth provide authoritative perspectives on aviation safety and political accountability.

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Episode Resources:

• For more insights and detailed discussions, listeners are encouraged to subscribe to The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell on MSNBC.

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This summary encapsulates the critical discussions, insights, and conclusions presented in the January 31, 2025 episode of "The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell," offering a comprehensive overview for both regular listeners and newcomers.

Transcript

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Now.

[Rachel Maddow]

It is time for the Last word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence Good evening, Rachel. We have Sully Sullenberger joining us tonight, who I think a lot of people are eager to hear from after this disaster, this aviation disaster. Later, Senator Mark Warner, who is here because he represents the state of Virginia, where the crash technically occurred. That airport is in Virginia. But also as the top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee in the Tulsi Gabbard hearing today, plays a key role in the committee. And he, Rachel, has not he's one of the Democrats who we actually don't know how he's going to vote. We're going to find out if the hearing it's very common, by the way, for the for the chair that, you know, the ranking member to to not announce before a hearing because they want the hearing to be more meaningful that they and they're going to use it to make up their minds. We see that in Bill Cassidy. Republican Senator Bill Cassidy is very plain about that with the Kennedy nomination. But it's sometimes the hearing is what they need, and it's possible we could get a decision out of Senator Warner tonight. Fascinating. I'm looking forward to hearing it. I found it to be a very unnerving hearing in lots of different levels. I'll be very interested to hear what his thank you, Richard. Thank you. Thanks, Lawrence. Well, Tip O'Neill could have blamed Ronald Reagan, but he didn't. According to political rules, the Democratic speaker of the house, Thomas P. O'Neill, could have blamed Republican President Ronald Reagan. The last time an airliner crashed into the Potomac River, Tip O'Neill could have blamed Ronald Reagan, but he didn't because the rules of common decency would not allow it. And Tup O'NEILL'S first impulse after the crash was not blame. It was sympathy. And so Democrats did not blame Republican President Ronald Reagan, even though in the single stupidest tough guy move by a president in domestic policy in the 1980s, Ronald Reagan, on August 5, 1981, not quite six months into his presidency, fired 11,345 air traffic controllers in the middle of a labor dispute. It was the single biggest blow to the American aviation industry in its history. To that point, and five months after President Reagan fired 11,345 air traffic controllers, a 737 crashed into the Potomac with 79 people aboard. I was thinking about that crash in our live coverage at this hour last night, which became this network's first full live hour of coverage of last night's plane crash. I was thinking about that 1982 crash because I could remember the dramatic images of the five people who were pulled out of that river by civilians who jumped out of their cars and professional rescue teams who responded immediately. And I was desperately hoping to see scenes like that once again last night. As I knew people in Kansas, in Washington and elsewhere in the country with loved ones on that airplane were hoping to see. They were hoping to see exactly that. And I knew that the worst words that you can hear about aviation accidents are mid air collision. And since we knew almost immediately last night that it was a mid air collision, hoping was hard to do. And so America woke up to the news that all 64 passengers and crew on the American Airlines flight from Wichita, Kansas, and the three crew members of that military helicopter in that collision were gone. No survivors. There has been a rush into the search for explanations, as there always is in situations like this. The best aviation investigators in the world are on the case, the National Transportation Safety Board, and those answers will be found. They always are. But we don't have those answers tonight. Donald Trump thought he knew the answers this morning when he blamed the gender or race of the people involved in the crash because he was, as usual, completely indiscriminate in the way he threw his accusation around. No one knows whether he meant the gender and race of the helicopter crew, or the gender and race of the airline crew, or the gender and race of people in the air traffic control tower at Washington National Airport. And he somehow managed to blame Presidents Joe Biden and Barack Obama for the very existence of people of the wrong gender and the wrong race ever occupying such jobs. It is the first time in history that a president of the United States has assigned blame for an aviation accident on his own, immediately based entirely on his own profoundly ignorant, prejudiced guess. Every previous president, in reacting to such events, such tragedies, has always begun with sympathy, including the only president who could have been blamed for an accidental plane crash and wasn't.

[Sully Sullenberger]

I'm going to digress for a moment from what I intended to say right here. A terrible tragedy took place in the capital city yesterday, the full extent of that tragedy still not yet known. But I only mention it because there are cynics who don't somehow believe in humanity anymore and in projects such as the one that you're engaged in, and the ones that I've been talking about doubt whether people can carry them out. What better example? Yesterday we saw a partnership. Yes, the agencies and departments of government responsible in times of emergency were there. The heroism of the firemen in the icy waters is well known to all of us. But then there was just a bystander who saw a woman lose her grip on the line the helicopter was using to bring her to shore. And without hesitation, he dived into the water. Lenny Skutnik. Nothing had picked him out as particularly to be a hero, but without hesitation, there he was. And he saved her life.

[Rachel Maddow]

I was thinking about Lenny Skutnik at this desk at this hour last night with the unforgettable image of him pulling Priscilla Tirado out of the Potomac in my memory and hoping to see something like that. Last night, Priscilla Tirado's husband and 2 month old baby did not survive that crash. Ronald Reagan gave Lenny Skutnik a seat of honor 13 days later at the State of the Union address. Money Skutnik was the worst thing you can be in Donald Trump's Washington. He was a federal worker. He was an office assistant at the Congressional Budget Office. Money. Skutnik retired from government service in 2010. He was for a time the most famous federal worker in America because of his heroism. Seven months after Lenny Skutnik became an American hero, the New York Times asked him if he would do it all again. He said, the rescue I'd do again in a minute. But all the stuff that came after, the fame and all that I could do without if it ever happened again. I wish the cameras weren't there. The whole thing has been kind of blown out of proportion. I wish the cameras weren't there. There's nothing about Lenny Skutnik, not his humility, not his heroism, nothing about him that Donald Trump could ever understand. Some names, about 13 names have been confirmed among the people lost in the crash. Samuel Lilly was the first officer on the American Airlines flight. He was inspired to fly by his father, an army helicopter pilot, and was recently engaged to be married. Christine Lane was traveling with her son, Spencer Lane, a member of the Skating Club of Boston, who was returning from the U.S. figure Skating's National Development Camp in Wichita, Kansas. Alexander Kirsanov, the coach of two of the young skaters on the flight. Ian Epstein, a flight attendant on that flight from Wichita. Wendy Jo Schaeffer, a wife and mother of two children, age 3 and 1. Justina Beyer, 42 years old, who was on the flight with her daughter, Brielle Byer, 12 years old. Jin Han was traveling with her daughter, Jinhe Han, a member of the Skating Club of Boston, who was also returning from the U.S. figure Skating's National Development Camp. Evgenia Shishkova, a coach with the Skating Club of Boston. Vadim Namov, a coach. What the Skating Club of Boston. It wasn't the first time for the Skating Club of Boston to suffer such a tragedy. The director of the Skating Club of Boston, Doug Zegheib, said this earlier today.

[Tammy Duckworth]

To the best of our knowledge, 14 skaters returning home from the National Development Camp at Wichita, Kansas, put on by US Figure Skating were lost in the plane crash at Washington, D.C. of those 14 skaters, six were from the Skating Club of Boston. Two coaches, two teenage athletes, and the athletes moms. Skating is a very close and tight knit community. These kids and their parents, they're here at our facility in Norwood, six, sometimes seven days a week. It's a close, tight bond and I think for all of us, we have lost family. Sadly, this isn't the first time this club has experienced a tragedy like this. It's now a ways back, but in 1961, the entire world team of US figure skating en route to the World Championships in Prague, was lost in a plane crash in Belgium. Almost half of everybody on board that plane were from this club. It had long, long reaching implications for the skating club and for the sport in this country. Because when you lose coaches like this, you lose the future of the sport as well. It's been a long time in redeveloping it. And I personally feel that this club, the Skating Club of Boston, has just now, almost 60 years later, been coming out of the shadow of that 1961 crash show. This is particularly devastating.

[Rachel Maddow]

There was something else that allowed us all to hope when we first heard the news last night, and that was the seemingly miraculous piloting of our first guest tonight, Captain Sully Sullenberger, when He brought a US Air flight with 155 people on board to a successful crash landing on the Hudson river without any loss of life. We had a right to hope for miracles after seeing Captain Sullenberger do that. But that hope slipped away last night in the cold, dark water of the Potomac River. Leading off our discussion tonight is former airline pilot Captain Sully Sullenberger. He served as U.S. ambassador to the International Civil Aviation Organization in the Biden administration. Ambassador Sullenberger, thank you very much for joining us tonight. And I know there are people all over this country and the world who need to hear what you are thinking about this tragedy. Let's begin with when you first heard the news last night. What were your first thoughts last night when you heard about this?

[Mark Warner]

Lawrence, like you and like many, I was immediately devastated by the news. It was shocking. It hit me deeply, intensely, the loss of those lives, those precious lives. I can imagine the families, those who are lost and the grief they must feel. And they're looking for some reason, some explanation that as yet is not available to us. What do you think one day will be?

[Rachel Maddow]

What do you think at this point now, 24 hours later in the aftermath, but with families still grieving all over the country, what do you think the direction of our coverage of this should be at this point?

[Mark Warner]

Well, the United States National Transportation Safety Board is the gold standard of the globe for accident investigation. And NTSB Chair Homendy and her staff have already begun a long process that in 2009 on our flight required 16 months until the final report was written and the probable cause established in the contributing factors listed. And it may require not just listening to a cockpit voice recorder if it's readable, or looking at a digital flight data recorder. It may require old fashioned detective work, but they will follow the truth. They will follow the facts wherever they lead. And we can have great confidence that the results will be found. They will be made public. And as we always do after such a tragedy, the entire industry will learn these terrible lessons that we learned at great cost.

[Rachel Maddow]

You were employed by an airline for many years. That was your work home. What do you believe the end of the, in this instance, this particular instance, American Airlines, what do you believe an airline owes to the people who have suffered at this stage?

[Mark Warner]

An airline and its passengers are like captain and first officer and crew and their passengers. We're the ones responsible. We are literally directly responsible for the safety and care of everyone in our charge. And we must do for them the best that we know how to do. And I expect that they will meet that obligation.

[Rachel Maddow]

I don't want to draw you into politics, but if you have a reaction to what the President said today about this, please share it with us.

[Mark Warner]

Not surprised, disgusted.

[Rachel Maddow]

Captain Sully Sullenberger. We will leave it there. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you very much for all the work you've done in this field and your own dedication to air travel safety that we've all benefited from. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Mark Warner]

And our first officer, Jeff Skiles, who also has been a paragon of virtue in aviation safety. Thank you for having me. Lawrence.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you. And coming up, Senator Tammy Duckworth, a former Black Hawk pilot, will join us in our coverage of the mid air. She did join us last night at this very hour in our coverage of the breaking news coverage of this event last night. She's the top Democrat on the subcommittee on Aviation safety and she will join us next.

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Rachel Maddow]

Show so you never miss an episode. Today, Illinois Senator Tammy Duckworth, who served in Iraq as a Black Hawk helicopter pilot, said this victims are still in the water. The Black Hawk crew is still strapped into the cockpit, families are mourning and Trump is blaming dei, suggesting our pilots and Air Traffic controllers don't deserve their jobs. We need compassion and leadership. Our president showed none. Joining us now is Democratic Senator Tammy Duckworth of Illinois. She's the top Democrat on the subcommittee for Aviation Safety, Operations and Innovations. Senator Duckworth, thank you very much for joining us tonight. And thank you so much for joining us during our live breaking news coverage last night when this was all new to all of us 24 hours later. What are your reflections on where we stand now?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Well, Lawrence, we are getting more information. I did get a briefing today from the NNTSB and the FAA. And Chairwoman Hammadi has done an excellent job and as has the faa. So I was able to get a little bit more clarity, was able to ask a few more questions today of the investigators, where they are initially, and we got some more information. I did ask for additional questions, which they will get back to me. Right now we just need to be recovering the victims, take care of their loved ones who are grieving, and let the accident investigators do their jobs.

[Rachel Maddow]

Is there anything that has come out, and I'm not asking you to violate any confidences that you might have obtained today, but is there anything in what we know to be the public information about this that you as a helicopter pilot can see possible reasons for how this could have happened?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Well, obviously at least one of the aircraft moved away from where they were supposed to be, the location in the airspace where they were supposed to be, whether that is the Black Hawk, which should have been hugging the east bank of the Potomac river on helicopter route. They were Transitioning from Route 4 to Route Route 1 to Route 4, headed southbound. I did ask and was told by the FAA investigator that they can confirm that the regional jet was on short final and established on short final. So he was in a landing profile lined up with the Runway when this happened. So that means that he wasn't swinging and circling to land. He was actually on that short final and lined up with the, with the Runway, which is something that's good to know. So he wasn't in a banking maneuver for ex. And then we just, you know, we need to let them do their jobs and recover the flight recorders and recover the victims and be patient because we need to stick to the facts and stop speculating. You're seeing a lot of stuff happening on the air right now. Some of it, you know, may turn out to be accurate, but really what the loved ones of the victims deserve is not wild speculation by everybody. And we're certainly not going to learn the lessons that we need to learn to make air safety flying even safer if we spend too much time speculating on what happened.

[Rachel Maddow]

I just want to go over one more technical point with you, which I learned from you here last night, which is the Black Hawk helicopter has actually, those pilots have superior visibility to an airliner, which we all, I think, know the idea that we've all seen cockpits of airliners where it's just straight ahead and a little bit to the side, whereas the, the Blackhawk cockpit for the pilots has up, down and sideways visibility.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yes. And they would have been looking for that aircraft because they were under visual flight rules and they requested to use visual separation with the, with the regional airliners. So all three pilots would have been keeping their eyes open to look for that. For that landing aircraft. Yes. In a Blackhawk, you've got the, you basically are in a plexiglass bubble, with plexiglass in the chin bubble, which is underneath your feet, with plexiglass above your head, and of course, in the doors. And so you have very excellent visibility in the aircraft. Now, they were over the Potomac, which is black and dark. They will have their peripheral vision going where they can see the lights on the sides moving and they can see the beacon from dca. But in this instance, you know, again, we just, you know, some of the things we need to know is exactly where the Black Hawk wars was in terms of east, west, over the Potomac, as well as what height, what altitude they were at. Because there's a hard deck there on that route. They're not supposed to go above 200ft, mean sea level. And so did this impact happen above that? And if it did, then, you know, how did the Black Hawk get up into an altitude above where they were supposed to be? But we don't know. We don't know. And we just need to let the investigators do their jobs.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator Tammy Duckworth, thank you very much for joining us last night and again tonight.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you. Coming up, Tulsi Gabbard was asked the simplest yes or no question in any of the confirmation hearings today, and she could not answer it. The top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Mark Warner of Virginia, did not say in the hearing if he is voting for or against Tulsi Gabbard. We'll find out if the Senator has made his decision about the nominee when Senator Warner joins us next. Never before in a Senate confirmation hearing has a nominee refused to answer a question which was asked in virtually identical form by almost every member of the committee in both parties until today was.

[Mark Warner]

Edward Snowden a traitor?

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator, my heart is with my commitment to our Constitution and our nation's security. Ours too, through I thank you. I have shown throughout my almost 22 years of service in the military, as well as my time in Congress, how seriously I take the privilege of having access to classified information.

[Mark Warner]

Was he a traitor the time when he took America's secrets, released them in public, and then ran to China and became a Russian citizen?

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator, I'm focused on the future.

[Mark Warner]

Was Edward Snowden a traitor to the United States of America?

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator, I will also repeat my answer.

[Mark Warner]

Do you believe, as the chairman of this committee believes, as the vast majority of members of our intelligence agencies believe, that Edward Snowden was a traitor to the United States of America?

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator of Confirmed. Is Edward Snowden a traitor to the United States of America? That is not a hard question to.

[Mark Warner]

Answer when the stakes are this high.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator, as someone who has an yes.

[Mark Warner]

Or no, is Edward Snowden a traitor to the United States of America?

[Rachel Maddow]

As someone who has I'll go on to my uniform in combat, I understand how critical our national security is. Apparently you don't. Apparently you don't. Edward Snowden, who is now a citizen of Russia and one of Vladimir Putin's favorites, was actually tweeting about the hearing as he was watching from Russia, where he criticized the senators for asking about him.

[Kashyap Patel]

For years, until you got chosen by President Trump, have celebrated this guy as brave. You've called for him to be pardoned, for his charges to be dropped. I cannot imagine a Director of National Intelligence that would say that kind of behavior is okay.

[Rachel Maddow]

Joining us now is Democratic Senator Mark Warner of Virginia. He is the vice chairman of the Select Committee on Intelligence, where that confirmation hearing was held today. Senator, I'd like to just pause that subject for a second and begin our conversation where your day began at National Airport, which is in your state of Virginia, as it borders Washington, D.C. at the crash site.

[Kashyap Patel]

Well, this morning was a. Last night was obviously a challenging time. I was coming back to my home, which is about three miles south of Reagan, and didn't see the crash, but saw all more lights, red lights rushing the national across the river in Maryland. And it was horrible. It was obviously this morning. I was at national at 7am it's been a long, long day. And I'm going to echo what everybody said. You know, obviously our hearts go out to the victims. And this area in D.C. virginia, Maryland, we've got a lot of jurisdictions. Everybody came together. First responders were amazing. And I find it incredible echoing what Tammy said earlier is that you got folks in leadership positions in America trying to opine about why this happened before the transportation professionals make a judgment. That's irresponsible, it's frankly inexcusable, and it's extraordinarily inappropriate to those families who are still grieving.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator, like other Trump nominee confirmation hearings, we saw a confirmation hearing today like we've never seen before. I was quite struck by how many senators on the Republican side, as well as the Democratic side, asked that simple question about Edward Snowden. It's common to see one side really pressing one particular point. It's very unusual to see both sides pressing exactly the same point, which is a yes or no question.

[Kashyap Patel]

Lawrence, I'm really proud of this committee. I was chairman for a number of years. I've been vice chairman and vice chairman again. I think we're the last functioning bipartisan committee in the Senate, and we approach national security as not a D or an R issue. And it was extraordinary. Today we ask a simple question. I actually gave Ms. Gabbard, and I respect her service to our country as a legislator in the military. It's not about that. It's about judgment. But at this point in time, after the guy who leaked the most amount of our national secrets did more to undermine our national security than virtually anyone in modern times, if you can't call him out as a traitor. As a traitor. She wouldn't even respond to my questions, saying she would not respond and say he's not brave or he's, you know, she had a bill to pardon him. And I think a lot of us, you know, I'm obviously going to vote against her. I'm going to encourage all of my members on the committee, I don't care which party they belong to, that this is not the appropriate person that will, on judgment, will make the right judgment calls about protecting the men and women of our Intelligence Committee. But also, Lawrence, one of the things we get about half our intelligence from our allies around the world, there's no requirement that they share that with us. They share that on trust. If this individual can't say Edward Snowden, who shared our secrets and other secrets, is a traitor, will these other countries, our five EYE partners, partners around the world, Israel's Mossad, share that information with us on an ongoing basis? That will make us weaker if they don't share that. And candidly, what message would that send to the men and women of the Intelligence Committee who don't get the admiration oftentimes that our military gets because they do this candidly in a circumstantial way, they're not recognized. Nobody buys them lunch if you're not willing to stand up for them, if you're not willing to send out a signal. This role of Director of National intelligence, you had 18 agencies, $100 billion. If you're not willing to call out Edward Snowden as a traitor, you shouldn't have that job.

[Rachel Maddow]

You went into the hearing today unannounced on how you would vote on this nomination. Did this nomination did this hearing today, as you sat through it, make up your mind about how to cast this vote?

[Kashyap Patel]

Lawrence I had huge concerns going into this hearing. I kind of feel like, as a guy that used to be in the business world, you know, these hearings are kind of an effective job interview. And I felt like I needed to let Ms. Gabbard make her case, both in the closed hearing, I'm sorry, in the open hearing, and in the closed hearing we had a couple hours afterwards in a classified setting, I had huge concerns. My concerns went up both in open and closed. And I'm happy to tell you and your audience tonight that I will definitely be voting against Ms. Gabbard and encouraging Democrats, Republicans, anyone who cares about protecting the sources and methods of how the intelligence community does its job, how we stand up against authoritarian nations like Russia and China, how we also protect people's civil liberty rights. Yes, but anyone. I don't believe that Edward Snowden was a brave whistleblower the way Ms. Gabbard, you know, described him, or I don't believe that he should be pardoned. I believe, like almost everyone on this committee, that he was a traitor and her unwillingness to acknowledge that. You know, I've talked to some of my Republican colleagues, I've talked to my Democratic colleagues. You know, if we can't stand the line on this part of national security, where will we draw the line?

[Rachel Maddow]

As I was watching the hearing from my distance, and you know what I'm about to say far better than I do, I get your sense of it. I had the feeling that the concern was going up on the Republican side, too, because of the hearing.

[Kashyap Patel]

Lawrence as we've seen, there's enormous pressure from the administration to support these nominees. And I give enormous credit to folks who stood up against the Secretary of Defense. And we've got a series of other individuals that make me really pause. I've not seen, and I think about some of our Republican friends. They kept giving her a lifeline. Just call out this guy for who he is. Say that you reject, you know, this kind of activity. And unfortunately, she wouldn't do that.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator Mark Warner, thank you very much for joining us on what I know has been a difficult day starting at National Airport through to tonight. Thank you very much for joining us.

[Kashyap Patel]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[Rachel Maddow]

Coming up, Kashyap Patel has made history in more ways than one as Donald Trump's nominee for FBI director. He is the only nominee for job who has ever been asked in his Senate confirmation hearing, did you commit a crime? That's next with Andrew Weissman.

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[Rachel Maddow]

Kashyap Patel is the kind of person who Donald Trump does not want to be a citizen of the United States. Kashyap Patel was born in the United States 44 years ago to immigrant parents, the kinds of people who Donald Trump says have poisoned the blood of America. But today, because of his unyielding personal loyalty to Donald Trump and possibly Donald Trump's gratitude for him committing crimes for Donald Trump, which were explored in his confirmation hearing today, Kashyap Patel faced questions in the Senate Judiciary Committee as Donald Trump's choice to be the director of the FBI. He has made history as a nominee for that job in more ways than one.

[Andrew Weissman]

Mr. Patel may be, I don't know, but he may be the first nominee for FBI director in history who felt it necessary to plead the Fifth to say that he wouldn't testify to a grand jury because it might incriminate him. Maybe the first nominee for FBI director ever to feel the necessity of pleading The Fifth.

[Rachel Maddow]

That's right. He is the first nominee in history to plead the Fifth Amendment as a nominee for director of the FBI because he believed his testimony to a grand jury could incriminate him in the commission of crimes with and for Donald Trump. The grand jury was investigating Donald Trump's illegal possession of classified documents, and that testimony to the grand jury remains secret.

[Discount Tire]

So you're not willing to tell Congress, after making many pledges today about transparency, whether or not you testified to witnessing the President of the United States declassified documents. In the name of all the values you have said today, did you or did you not testify to witnessing the President of the United States declassified documents?

[Bernard Kerik]

I testified accordingly and under oath, and I encourage you to get that transcript.

[Rachel Maddow]

And by the way, Kashav Patel would not reveal what he said under oath to the grand jury.

[Discount Tire]

Sir, did you or did you not commit a crime?

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator? I did not commit a crime.

[Discount Tire]

Then why won't you tell us what you testified to?

[Bernard Kerik]

Because it occurred over the course of three weeks. I don't have the ability to recall everything I testified to.

[Rachel Maddow]

Apparently, he couldn't recall anything he testified to or wouldn't. Kash Appel was asked about why he called the capitol police on January 6, quote, cowards in uniform. And then this happened.

[Andrew Weissman]

I want you to turn around. There are Capitol Police officers behind you. They're guarding us. Take a look at them right now. Turn around.

[Kashyap Patel]

I'm looking at you.

[Rachel Maddow]

You're talking to me.

[Andrew Weissman]

Look at them. I want you to look at them if you can, if you have the courage to look them in the eye, Mr. Patel, and tell them you're proud of what you did. Tell them you're proud that you raised money off of people that assaulted their colleagues, that pepper sprayed them, that beat them with poles. Tell them you're proud of what you did, Mr. Patel. They're right there. They're guarding you today. Tell them how proud you are.

[Bernard Kerik]

That's an abject lie, and you know it. I never, never, ever accepted violence against law enforcement. I've worked with these men and women.

[Kashyap Patel]

As you know.

[Bernard Kerik]

And I did not.

[Rachel Maddow]

Make a single dime out of Kashyap. Patel is the only nominee who brought a convicted felon with him to his Senate confirmation. The disgraced former New York City Police Commissioner for Rudolph Giuliani, Bernard Kerik, who was convicted of fraud and served time in federal prison before being pardoned by Donald Trump. Joining our discussion now is Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel, former chief of the Criminal division, Eastern District of New York. He's also an MSNBC legal analyst. And Andrew, with your expertise in the FBI, what did you focus on in this hearing?

[Bernard Kerik]

Well, I focused on two things that seem pretty clear that you want in an FBI director. You want somebody who's going to base their decisions on facts and who understands the law. And I thought, for the reasons that you've alluded to and that I'm about to sort of quickly outline, he failed on both counts. So on the law, very simply, with respect to his trying to not reveal what he said in the grand jury, he actually said he can't, as a witness, reveal that information. That is absolutely not the law. The law is 100% clear. Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 6. I know most of the audience is going to be, I don't know that rule. Why should he? He should know it because he's going to be the head of the FBI. And he says he has all this experience in criminal and national security law. It is black letter law. That he does not know or he misrepresented. Either one is not good. He also made a series of factual statements that don't make any sense or really are hard to believe. He said that he doesn't have an intention of going after anyone, of looking backwards, but there's an executive order from the president that actually requires him to look backwards over the last four years. So he either is lying or he hasn't read the executive order. And he does have that intention. To me, it was just a striking example of, you know, he's saying something that's just belied by the actual facts. He also said he's going to restore the FBI. And there was a lot of talk by Republicans about how the FBI is held in such disrepute. Ignoring that Kash Patel is a major reason for that. He says over and over again prior to today that it's the FBI that fomented and caused the January 6th insurrection. That is simply not true. And so you just do not want an FBI director who is a fabulist. So to me, he sort of failed on the law and the facts in his domination.

[Rachel Maddow]

And when he ever confronted with his own statements, he would always say that was out of context when it's the full context. He said he was going to close down the FBI headquarters on day one, and then he pretended that was out of context.

[Bernard Kerik]

Absolutely. I mean, it was like he was given a playbook to say that, to sort of get to the next question. But a good example of that is he was asked about Mar a lago where he has said previously that he witnessed the president of the United States declassify the documents at Mar A Lago. Today he said, I don't even know what documents were at Mar A Lago. That is completely inconsistent. And when he's confronted with that. Exactly to your point, Lawrence, he would just say you're just taking this out of context when people were not.

[Rachel Maddow]

Andrew Weissman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Bernard Kerik]

You're welcome.

[Rachel Maddow]

We'll be right back. That is tonight's last word.

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