Lawrence: Every Republican knows Trump pick Hegseth’s confirmation hearing would be a disaster

Summary

Detailed Summary of "The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell"
Episode: Every Republican knows Trump pick Hegseth’s confirmation hearing would be a disaster
Release Date: December 10, 2024
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell, MSNBC

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I. The Collapse of the Assad Regime in Syria

Timestamp [1:03]

Lawrence O’Donnell opens the episode by addressing a monumental shift in Middle Eastern politics: the fall of Bashar al-Assad’s regime in Syria. He cites President Biden’s statement declaring the regime’s end as a "fundamental act of justice" after years of severe oppression and violence against Syrian civilians. O'Donnell highlights Biden’s assertion that Russian support for Assad crumbled due to Vladimir Putin’s preoccupation with the war in Ukraine, leading to Assad’s eventual exile to Moscow.

Notable Quote:
"At long last, the Assad regime has fallen. This regime brutalized and tortured and killed literally hundreds of thousands of innocent Syrians." — President Biden [1:39]

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II. Donald Trump’s Response and Nominations

Timestamp [6:00]

O’Donnell transitions to the political aftermath of Assad’s downfall, focusing on President Donald Trump’s response and his controversial nominations. Trump dismisses U.S. involvement in Syria’s future, stating, "The United States should have nothing to do with it. This is not our fight. Let it play out. Do not get involved." This stance raises concerns about the U.S. role in stabilizing post-Assad Syria.

Subsection A: Tulsi Gabbard for Director of National Intelligence

O’Donnell critiques Trump’s nomination of Tulsi Gabbard, noting her previous favorable remarks about Assad. Gabbard declared, "Assad is not the enemy of the United States," which O’Donnell suggests could complicate her potential role as DNI.

Subsection B: Pete Hegseth for Secretary of Defense

The focus then shifts to Trump’s pick for Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth. O’Donnell outlines Hegseth’s problematic background, including allegations of public drunkenness, misconduct at Fox, and an accusation of rape, making Hegseth the first accused rapist to face a Senate confirmation hearing.

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III. Republican Senators’ Opposition to Hegseth’s Nomination

Timestamp [10:50]

O’Donnell details the substantial resistance within the Republican Party against Pete Hegseth’s confirmation. Key Republican senators—Joni Ernst of Iowa, Deb Fischer of Nebraska, and Mike Rounds of South Dakota—have publicly stated their opposition, signaling that even a single dissenting vote could derail his nomination in the Senate Armed Services Committee.

Notable Quote:
"If Pete Hegseth makes it to a Senate confirmation hearing, there will be endless testimony and questioning about his public drunkenness and his drunkenness at work." — Lawrence O’Donnell [10:50]

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IV. Expert Analysis and Political Implications

Timestamp [14:21]

Political Analyst Congressman Adam Smith joins the discussion, strongly criticizing Hegseth’s qualifications and credibility. Smith questions Hegseth’s ability to manage the Pentagon, citing his lack of relevant experience and the damaging allegations against him.

Notable Quote:
"He is not going to have the credibility because... he's not up to that job." — Congressman Adam Smith [15:14]

The conversation explores the broader implications for the Republican Party, suggesting that Trump's reckless nominations could exacerbate internal divisions and weaken party cohesion.

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V. Trump’s Attacks on the January 6th Committee

Timestamp [25:25]

O’Donnell shifts focus to Trump’s relentless attacks on the January 6th committee. Trump unfoundedly claims that committee members destroyed evidence and should be jailed, branding them as betraying democracy. He asserts, "These people should go to jail."

Subsection A: Liz Cheney’s Rebuttal

Timestamp [35:32]

Liz Cheney, a prominent Republican, responds emphatically, condemning Trump’s allegations as baseless and emphasizing the committee’s role in defending democracy. She states, "This was the worst breach of our Constitution by any president in our nation's history," firmly distancing herself from Trump’s narrative.

Subsection B: Legal Expert Andrew Weissman’s Perspective

Timestamp [30:30]

Legal analyst Andrew Weissman provides a critical analysis of Trump’s claims, explaining that there is no evidence supporting the destruction of evidence by the committee. Weissman underscores the robustness of legal safeguards that prevent such actions, debunking Trump’s assertions as not only false but legally implausible.

Notable Quote:
"Liz Cheney is concerned about making sure this evidence stays intact and is there for history. It's the exact opposite of what Donald Trump is saying." — Andrew Weissman [32:35]

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VI. The Future of the Republican Party and Potential Primary Challenges

Timestamp [17:03]

The discussion highlights the potential for internal Republican challenges, particularly targeting senators like Joni Ernst, who may face primary opposition for her stance against Hegseth’s nomination. O’Donnell suggests that Trump’s influence could polarize the party further, leading to candidates who may prioritize loyalty over qualifications.

Notable Quote:
"Every president other than Donald Trump would never nominate as unqualified and reckless a person as Tulsi Gabbard for any position in government." — Lawrence O’Donnell

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VII. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Lawrence O’Donnell wraps up the episode by emphasizing the dangers of Trump’s nominating strategies and his attacks on democratic institutions. He warns that these actions not only harm individual nominations but also threaten the integrity and future of the Republican Party.

Notable Quote:
"Donald Trump's rank and unyielding stupidity on every subject raised in that interview is something the Washington news media does not seem particularly animated by." — Lawrence O’Donnell [07:56]

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VIII. Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. President Biden:
   "At long last, the Assad regime has fallen. This regime brutalized and tortured and killed literally hundreds of thousands of innocent Syrians." — [1:39]

2. Lawrence O’Donnell:
   "If Pete Hegseth makes it to a Senate confirmation hearing, there will be endless testimony and questioning about his public drunkenness and his drunkenness at work." — [10:50]

3. Congressman Adam Smith:
   "He is not going to have the credibility because... he's not up to that job." — [15:14]

4. Liz Cheney:
   "This was the worst breach of our Constitution by any president in our nation's history." — [35:32]

5. Andrew Weissman:
   "Liz Cheney is concerned about making sure this evidence stays intact and is there for history. It's the exact opposite of what Donald Trump is saying." — [32:35]

6. Lawrence O’Donnell:
   "Donald Trump's rank and unyielding stupidity on every subject raised in that interview is something the Washington news media does not seem particularly animated by." — [07:56]

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IX. Additional Context

Throughout the episode, O’Donnell interweaves analysis with current political events, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the complexities surrounding Trump’s nominations and his broader impact on American politics. The discussion underscores the tension between party loyalty and ethical governance, highlighting the precarious position of Republicans who oppose Trump-backed nominations.

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This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode, providing a thorough overview for those who have not listened to the podcast.

Transcript

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[News Anchor]

Of the Assad family dictatorship came to an end yesterday in Syria. President Biden made this statement at 1:39pm at long last, the Assad regime has fallen. This regime brutalized and tortured and killed literally hundreds of thousands of innocent Syrians. The fall of the regime is a fundamental act of justice. It's a moment of historic opportunity for the long suffering people of Syria to build a better future for their proud country. President Biden made the point that Assad's support from Russia collapsed under the pressure of the war Vladimir Putin decided to start in Ukraine. Russia's support for Assad also failed and that's because Ukraine, backed by our American allies, has put up a wall of resistance against invading Russian forces, inflicting massive damage on the Russian forces and that has left Russia unable to protect its main ally in the Middle East. President Biden describes his administration's policy on Syria, which has now ended with the collapse of the Assad regime. Yesterday we maintained our military presence in Syria, our counter isis, to counter the support of local partners as well on the ground, their partners never ceding an inch of territory, taking out leaders of isis, ensuring that ISIS can never establish a safe haven there again. And it will now be up to Donald Trump to ensure that ISIS can never establish a safe haven there again. But Donald Trump has not suggested that he has any idea how to do that. He did post on social media Assad is gone. He has fled his country. His protector Russia. Russia. Russia, led by Vladimir Putin was not interested in protecting him and longer Vladimir Putin is reportedly protecting Bashar al Assad, who is now residing in Moscow, having successfully fled to Moscow yesterday. In Syria, no one is sure what will happen next. Here's Richard Engel in Damascus, and that has been the kind of scene that we've been seeing all morning here, where people have come to Damascus from all over the country to sing songs, to take photographs of this moment. There was a drone in the air a moment ago trying to get some high shots and lots and lots of celebratory gunfire. These are civilians. People are coming out. You can hear some women here uvulating, which is a very typical way of cheering and celebrating. And there are also fighters here. Some of the rebels have made appearances and they are being greeted like heroes as people come out, embrace them, thank them for the fight. This has just been a stunning last couple of weeks in this country. Donald Trump's choice for Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, has spoken favorably about Assad in the past, saying, quote, assad is not the enemy of the United States, end quote. She has admitted to secretly traveling to meet with Assad at a time when all travel in and out of Syria was controlled by Assad. If her nomination makes it all the way to a confirmation hearing, Tulsi Gabbard will be asked about every word she said to Assad and what he said to her. And while she's testifying, the former dictator of Syria will be sitting in Moscow watching her confirmation hearing and knowing if she tells any lies under oath about her communications with him. Assad will, of course, tell his landlord, now, Vladimir Putin, that Tulsi Gabbard has compromised herself, and then Vladimir Putin will own her future. We have the possibility of Donald Trump empowering a Director of National Intelligence who can be blackmailed by deposed dictator Bashar Al Assad and Vladimir Putin. No president other than Donald Trump would ever nominate as unqualified and reckless a person as Tulsi Gabbard for any position in government. So, too, with Donald Trump's nomination of Pete Hegseth for Secretary of Defense. We can only wonder what Pete Hegseth was doing over the weekend when the regime in Syria was collapsing. He has promised to stop drinking only if he is confirmed as Secretary of Defense. That means, according to his former co workers at Fox, when he was hosting a weekend morning show. It is possible that Pete Hegseth was drunk all weekend this weekend, as he reportedly has been in the past while working at Fox. It is extremely likely that President Biden had private conversations, possibly several, this weekend with Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin as the situation was rapidly unfolding in Syria. That's the kind of job Defense secretary is. The urgent situations and the urgent calls can happen at any moment of the day or night, including the weekends. If Pete Hegseth doesn't have a drinking problem, there is still no reason to think that he could handle any aspect of the job of defense secretary at any level of sobriety. Donald Trump apparently believes he can somehow avoid the embarrassment of the possible collapse of Pete Hegseth's nomination by simply making no effort to get him confirmed. Have you gotten assurances from senators that he's going to be confirmed? No. That interview also included these gems from Donald Trump. I consider myself to be the father of ivf, and I'm sort of proud of my decision. At the same time, sometimes I regret it, and I know more about judges than any human being in history. That interview also included Donald Trump repeatedly telling the lie that the January 6th committee deleted all of the evidence that they collected in their investigation and that members of the committee should go to jail. Donald Trump then added that he would not tell his attorney general to prosecute Liz Cheney or any other members of the January 6 committee. He also said that he would not tell his attorney general to prosecute Joe Biden, even though Donald Trump made an explicit in writing campaign promise to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Joe Biden. Donald Trump was asked about his nominee for secretary of defense being the first presidential nominee in history to promise not to drink if he gets the job. He'll stop drinking if he gets this job.

[Advertiser]

Does that worry you?

[News Anchor]

No. I think that everybody has something that they can stop. Some people can stop eating. I'm lucky I'm not a drinker, but I could stop eating. If you stop eating, as hunger strikers around the world have proven, you will be dead in a matter of months. If you stop drinking alcohol, you might just live a lot longer. Donald Trump doesn't seem to know the difference between stopping eating and stopping drinking alcohol, and an answer like that would get any previous president condemned as being too old or just too out of it and confused to handle the job of president. But Donald Trump's rank and unyielding stupidity on every subject raised in that interview is something the Washington news media does not seem particularly animated by, in the same way they have been animated, to put it mildly, every time Joe Biden stutters or stumbles in the middle of a sentence or uses the wrong word when what Joe Biden is actually saying is both true and important. If Joe Biden said any of the things Donald Trump said in that interview yesterday, the national news media would have declared him utterly lost. As of tonight, Pete Hegseth does not have the votes to win confirmation in the Senate Armed Services Committee. Three Republican members of that committee have made it clear they are not now voting yes on the Hegseth nomination. And it takes only one Republican vote to kill that nomination in the committee. That includes the two Republican women on the committee, Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa and Senator Deb Fisher of Nebraska. And it also includes Senator Mike Rounds of South Dakota.

[Political Analyst]

What do you make of Pete Hegseth.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

As President Elect Trump's pick for Defense Secretary?

[Advertiser]

Have you decided where you are on that?

[News Anchor]

I had a great meeting with Pete, told him that I really thought there was a path for forward for him to be confirmed. But I think the challenge for Pete is going to be responding in public.

[Political Analyst]

To some of the allegations that have been made.

[News Anchor]

Does he have your support? We'll find out. After he comes back and he answers those questions in public. We'll find out. It only takes one Republican senator in the Armed Services Committee to vote against Pete Hegseth to defeat the nomination in the committee. It is still technically possible to bring that nomination to the Senate floor for a vote of the full Senate. But usually a nomination defeated in the committee dies in the committee. Here's what Senator Deb Fisher said about Pete Hegseth's nomination.

[Advertiser]

Are you ready to say where you're.

[Political Analyst]

Going to fall on that vote?

[News Anchor]

Quite yet. We'll see how the hearing goes.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

But as I said, we had a great conversation.

[News Anchor]

We'll see how the hearing goes. Everyone knows how the hearing is going to go. Everyone knows the hearing is going to be a disaster. Every Republican Senator knows if Pete Hegseth makes it to a Senate confirmation hearing, there will be endless testimony and questioning about his public drunkenness and his drunkenness at work and the extramarital night of sex that he admitted to in a police investigation that happened in a Monterey, California, hotel room which the woman involved told the Monterey police was rape. No accused rapist has ever had a Senate confirmation hearing. Pete Hegseth is now scheduled to have the first Senate confirmation hearing in history of an accused rapist. And every Republican senator who's saying, we'll see how the hearing goes knows exactly how the hearing is going to go. And they know that voting against his nomination will be much, much easier after that hearing. Senator Joni Ernst, who is running for reelection in two years, is now being targeted for a possible Republican primary challenge in Iowa. If she doesn't support Pete Hegseth. She has now taken to telling reporters, these are her words, quote, I am supporting him through this process, end quote. She has said that repeatedly now to reporters. And of course, reporters realize that doesn't really tell you how she's going to vote. Absolutely. It means that we're having really good discussions and we discussed several items that were really important to me. And I'll just refer back to my statement on those items. But what I appreciated very much about Mr. Headset, he came in. He really does respect the process, and I'm. I'm grateful for that. But again, I'll refer you back to his statement.

[Political Analyst]

You compliment his denials about those assault allegations.

[News Anchor]

Do you believe those denials? I'll refer you back to this statement.

[Factory Worker]

Will you have another meeting with him?

[News Anchor]

That's to be determined, but thank you. You talked about it in your statement. What does that mean, providing more details? Yes, and we talked through a number of issues that the Pentagon has right now, and it was very thoughtful and deep conversation about several items that I'd already talked to him about. And it was good to have a real thorough policy.

[Political Analyst]

Did the pressure of getting back home.

[News Anchor]

And primary politics play into this? We have been talking these same issues every meeting that we've had, and he had really thought answers. So thank you.

[Factory Worker]

Thanks, guys.

[News Anchor]

No matter how many times they asked, she repeatedly refused to say that she's going to vote for Pete Hegsett's nomination. Leading off our discussion tonight is Congressman Adam Smith of Washington. He is the top Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee. Thank you very much for joining us. So the House committee has exactly the same jurisdiction as the Senate Armed Services Committee, except they do the confirmation process. But whoever is the next Defense secretary is going to have to come to your committee is going to need credibility with your committee, presumably in many different situations. Can you imagine a Secretary Hegseth, on the state of the evidence we know now, actually testifying to your committee about any matters?

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Well, not with any credibility. Yeah, I think that's. And that's a key point. Now, there's also the matter of does he have experience at the Pentagon or even running an organization similarly? Can he handle that level of bureaucracy just the day in and day out of running it? But his credibility right now is nowhere. I mean, you've mentioned some of the drinking, the sexual assault allegations, but he was actually, you know, in a prominent position in two separate veterans organizations, that he ran both of them into the ground. And that's where a ton of the allegations come from from people who worked with him. I forget the name of the second organization, the one funded by the Koch brothers that he ran. That's where all the allegations of drinking, spending the money on parties, womanizing and just running the organization in the most horrible manner possible. And I just he's not going to have the credibility because as you've mentioned, we deal with some pretty serious issues and he does not seem to be.

[News Anchor]

Up to that job in the it was a woman working at one of those veterans organizations, small group of maybe 10 employees who had to pull him away from getting on the stage in a strip club. She managed to save him from being the nominee who actually was on the stage at a strip club to now just the one who was pulled off by one of his co workers. That same woman says on the same night another one of the co workers, the men in the organization then tried to rape her. That's the organization he was running. That would be days of Senate confirmation questions in any previous situation.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Yeah, well, and that's really the interesting troubling traumatic aspect of this is look, Donald Trump has built his career on I can say whatever I want and you're not really hearing it and we'll do whatever we want and we'll decide what the truth is after the fact. And and I think he's going to test that theory. I don't share the confidence of a lot of people that Pete Hegseth is necessarily not going to get the votes because they are going to put the pressure on Joni Ernst, on Deb Fisher and every single one say this isn't about anything. That's all just made up stuff. Don't believe any of that. Are you with me or aren't you? Donald Trump's going to push that. I guess the thought I had is if he can make RFK Jr eat a big Mac, right, can he make Senate Republicans vote for an obviously unqualified candidate who lacks the credibility to do the job? I don't know that I would bet the mortgage against that.

[News Anchor]

Yeah, it's one of the interesting things about the timing. It's the confirmation hearing is not until some point in January. We're not sure when his probably will be one of the later ones. But it gives them more time in Iowa to build primary challenges against Joni Ernst and to make her take that into consideration.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

I mean that's been the fundamental future of Donald Trump's rise in the Republican Party goes all the way back to Mark Sanford. Mark Sanford said a few critical things about Donald Trump back in 27. It wasn't even nothing compared to what's now. They primaried him and they beat him. And that message was received by Republicans.

[News Anchor]

As we go forward with this. In addition to, there's going to be so much attention on the sexual allegations, the rape allegations involving Pete Hegseth, the drunkenness both at work and publicly in strip clubs and all of that stuff, the mismanagement. What about the actual job of secretary of Defense? What are the kinds of questions that a nominee of his minimal experience should face about the actual job?

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Well, there's two big aspects. One is you're running a $900 billion organization with several million employees, the world's largest bureaucracy. What do you know about doing that? How are you going to deal with that bureaucracy? You make a decision. How are you going to make sure it goes forward? What are your ideas for reforming the Department of Defense? You know, Mike Rogers, who's the chairman of the Armed Services Committee, and I are very focused on getting the Pentagon to innovate more quickly to become a more efficient, more, you know, rapidly moving organization. What does he know about that? But also what are his policies? You know, he's written a couple of books and his basic policy seems to be only men need to be involved in the military. All right, so we're going to get rid of women. We're going to get rid of anyone in the LGBTQ community. How's that going to work in terms of recruitment? Women serve in the military very effectively. And if you read what he has to say about it, he seems to think that all we need in the military, his word, are dudes. So how are you going to work with people who aren't your mirror image, straight white guy? Because you do have to figure out how to work with people who are different from you to run an organization of that side. My gosh, once we get past the drunkenness and the sexual assault allegations, there are pretty serious policy questions that also need to be asked.

[News Anchor]

We're going to try to squeeze in a quick commercial. We will squeeze in a quick commercial break right here so we can continue the conversation. Want to cover more about Syria when we come back? We'll be right back with Congressman Adam Smith after this break.

[Advertiser]

It's the holiday season and the perfect time to gift yourself with a new home for the new year. For a limited time, take advantage of incredible savings and incentives during Dr. Horton's it's your year savings event going on now through December 22nd. Your perfect home for every holiday season is waiting for you. To find yours, visit any of our participating Dr. Horton communities or visit [e-mail] and discover the Dr. Horton difference. Dr. Horton America's Builder, an equal Housing Opportunity builder.

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I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

[News Anchor]

Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc [e-mail] Donald Trump issued a written statement about the collapse of the Assad regime in Syria, saying the United States should have nothing to do with it. This is not our fight. Let it play out. Do not get involved. Exclamation point. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said this the United States has clear and enduring interests in Syria. We have a strong interest in preventing the reemergence of isis, given the death and destruction that it's wrought for so long. We have a clear interest in ensuring that whatever weapons of mass destruction or components are left in Syria do not fall into the wrong hands. We have a clear interest in doing what we can to avoid the fragmentation of Syria, mass migrations from Syria, and of course, the export of terrorism and extremism. The region and the world have a responsibility to support the Syrian people as they begin to rebuild their country and chart a new direction. The United States should be committed to supporting them as they do that. Back with us, Congressman Adam Smith, the top Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee. So Secretary Blinken laid out some rather significant stakes in this situation.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Yes, no, absolutely. Look, I think what President Elect Trump is probably focusing on is we shouldn't be militarily involved, and to some extent he's right. Now, I will point out we have some troops in eastern Syria because of isis, and there are tens of thousands of ISIS prisoners in camps there that we want to make sure don't escape. So there is that tiny little military. But fundamentally it is correct to say the US Military shouldn't be showing up trying to fix this problem. But we absolutely have an interest in being involved in Syria. It is an incredible opportunity. You know, for too long, governments in the Middle east have been led by religious extremism or hatred of one group or another. There is an opportunity for Syria to actually focus on governing its citizens well. And we ought to help them in that. We ought to find ways to work with them, whether it's humanitarian assistance, whether it's working with people in the region, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, uae, convincing them to help. If we build a solid government in Syria, that could be a major blow to Iran's efforts to continually destabilize the region. So we should not simply ignore what's going on in Syria.

[News Anchor]

It sounds like what you're hoping for does require very solid intelligence about exactly what's going on, possibly a physical presence there at some level to be able to report back. Here are the different factions. Here are the ones who are sympathetic.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

To the way we think, certainly at a diplomatic level. I mean, we've seen this play out in a whole bunch of different places. Frequently not well, by the way, right. When a government falls, there's that exhilarating.

[News Anchor]

Moment of seeing the horrible dictator knocked out. And then what happens?

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Well, who's going to take over and who are these people? Now this seems like a better organized rebel movement that made an effort to be inclusive. Now, where the leadership came from initially was an offshoot of isis, and that is worth worrying about. But he seems to have changed and brought in other people, but we don't know. So we need diplomats, we need intel, we need to know what's going on to try to help Syria get to a path that doesn't have it supporting isis and hopefully, like I said, has it governing Syria well. And that could bleed over into Lebanon, which, as you know, has been a disaster for some time. And we could really have a more peaceful, stable region if the Syrian rebels get this right.

[News Anchor]

This sounds like historically the stuff of a special envoy. This seems like a situation where a president would, in addition to the ambassadorial corps that's already present in the Middle east, say, I'm choosing some highly experienced person to try to get in there to get real contact with the new elements who have emerged in Syria. Right.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

And absolutely. And the roles that the countries around Syria are going to play. Turkey, which I haven't mentioned yet, is going to be crucial. Turkey has interests in Syria because they are concerned about the Kurds PKK and how we work with Turkey to make sure that they don't disrupt what's going on there, make them a positive player instead of a negative player. It's a real complicated diplomatic picture. And yes, the experience of the US and our intel background could be enormously helpful.

[News Anchor]

It would be good to have highly experienced members of the Cabinet, for example, at a time like this. Yes, it would.

[Factory Worker]

Right.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

And not just people who promise not to drink anymore. Yeah.

[News Anchor]

Promising not to drink. Representative Adam Smith, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[News Anchor]

Donald Trump said yesterday he wants all of the members of the January 6 committee to go to jail. There is no chance of that, of course, because unlike Donald Trump, none of them have committed any crimes. That's next with Andrew Weissman. Presidents prior to Donald Trump have always scrupulously avoided any comment about pending criminal cases or possible criminal defendants, which is why President Richard Nixon had to quickly issue a corrective press statement in 1970 when he let it slip publicly that he thought Charles Manson was guilty of the multiple murders that Manson was eventually found guilty of in court. A president commenting on the guilt of a defendant like Manson could have created a mistrial. And so Nixon immediately corrected that slip, and no president has ever come close to such a slip again until Donald Trump constantly talked about people who should be convicted of crimes, even if they committed no crimes, and he was at it again yesterday. Now, listen, this was a committee, a big deal. They lied, and what did they do? They deleted and destroyed a whole year and a half worth of testimony. Do you know that? I can't get. I think those people committed a major crime, and Cheney was behind it, and so was Benny Thompson and everybody on that committee. We're gonna. For what they did. Yeah. Honestly, they should go to jail. So you think Liz Cheney should go to jail for what everyone on the committee. You think? I think everybody on the. Anybody that voted in favor of. Are you going to direct your FBI director and your attorney general to send them to jail? No, not at all. I think that they'll have to look at that, but I'm not going to. I'm going to focus on drill, baby, drill. When you say that it carries weight, though, you know, you've tapped these people to lead the Justice Department and FBI. They can do whatever they want. Liz Cheney responded with this statement. President Elect Trump again lied about the January 6th select committee and said members of the committee should go to jail for carrying out our constitutional responsibilities here is the truth. Donald Trump attempted to overturn the 2020 presidential election and seize power. He mobilized an angry mob and sent them to the United States Capitol, where they attacked police officers, invaded the building, and halted the official counting of electoral votes. Trump watched on television as police officers were brutally beaten and the Capitol was assaulted, refusing for hours to tell the mob to leave. This was the worst breach of our Constitution by any president in our nation's history. Donald Trump's suggestion that members of Congress who later investigated his illegal and unconstitutional actions should be jailed is a continuation of his assault on the rule of law and the foundations of our republic. Donald Trump knows his claims about the Select Committee are ridiculous and false. As has been detailed extensively, including by Chairman Thompson in his July 2023 letter. There is no conceivably appropriate factual or constitutional basis for what Donald Trump is suggesting. A Justice Department investigation of the work of a congressional committee, and any lawyer who attempts to pursue that course would quickly find themselves engaged in sanctionable conduct. What the public now deserves to see is the evidence and grand jury material assembled by the Special Counsel Smith, including the grand jury testimony of Vice President Pence and members of Donald Trump's former White House and campaign staff. The Justice Department should ensure that all that material is preserved and cannot be destroyed. As much of that information as possible should be disclosed in the Special Counsel's upcoming report. Ultimately, Congress should require that all that material be publicly released so all Americans can see Donald Trump for who he genuinely is and fully understand his role in this terrible period in our nation's history. Joining our discussion now is Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel and MSNBC legal analyst. Andrew, so many things to cover here. First of all, the January 6th committee destroyed nothing. So Donald Trump's premise about why they should be prosecuted and sent to jail, actually, he doesn't even say they should be prosecuted. He skips that part and says just put them in jail. But there's absolutely no crime here. And when pushed, Donald Trump says he will not order his Attorney General to begin an investigation. But what do you make of both what Donald Trump said and Liz Cheney's response?

[Political Analyst]

So, first, I do think that the way to cover this, when Donald Trump makes these sort of flat out assertions, and at least here he doesn't just say they committed a crime, he actually says something factual, you know, according to him, about they purportedly destroyed evidence, the follow up needs to be and what is the proof of that? What is the proof that there is and any facts that you have that that's the case. I should note that's exactly the same thing that was said about the Mueller team, of which I was one of the members, that we somehow were destroying evidence. And the thing is, when you're an investigator, that is the last thing you are doing. You are concerned about making sure it's all preserved. So I want to turn to what Liz Cheney said about making sure that this evidence is preserved. And one of the things that Jack Smith can do to make sure it's preserved is borrow a page from what we did and make sure that you submit as much as you can to the court. And here the report and the information that's grand jury or arguably grand jury and how you're dealing with can be given to Jeb Boasberg, who is the chief judge of the D.C. district Court. Why to give it to court? Because the executive branch is not in charge of that. And so that is a place that you can put documents, you can submit it as long as you have a valid good faith basis to the court. And that is a way to make sure it is not destroyed. Just note, what Liz Cheney is saying is I'm concerned about making sure this evidence stays intact and is there for history. And it's the exact opposite of what Donald Trump is saying in terms of there being destruction of evidence.

[News Anchor]

Yeah. So let's get to destruction of evidence the afternoon of January 20th. Any evidence that is still in the possession of the Justice Department, Donald Trump could presumably just ordered destroyed over there.

[Political Analyst]

Well, it's a little bit more complicated.

[News Anchor]

I hope it is.

[Political Analyst]

Yeah. And the reason is that for any criminal case that is over, the argument is that you can do it because it's not taking evidence from either an ongoing criminal case or some ongoing investigation. But that's one possibility for why you might have to preserve something. In other words, it's relevant and you've been subpoenaed for it in connection with a criminal case. But remember, there are a slew of civil cases pending in D.C. eight of them, and I think seven of the eight directly involve what happened on January 6th. The eighth is related to it. So destroying documents that are called for and relevant to that case does pose the problem of criminal sanctions. Now, Donald Trump himself may not be that worried about it because of the Supreme Court's presidential immunity to decision, but everyone below him who would have to take steps to destroy evidence has, one, has taken an oath to the Constitution and two, has a bar ticket that would be in jeopardy if they were to take such action. So there really are still guardrails. If somebody was trying to get rid of that evidence. And finally, as I said, if that evidence is in the hands of the courts, that is not something that the executive branch can unilaterally get access to and destroy.

[News Anchor]

I want to go back to that reference to the bar ticket there. So Donald Trump can just give blanket pardons to everybody who works for him on the day they finish their jobs or at the end of the four years. But the people in the Justice Department who would be involved in any kind of COVID up of this material, most of them, certainly the attorney general, are lawyers. They are members of the bar. And as Rudy Giuliani's desperately sad end of his career shows, you can be disbarred, and there's nothing Donald Trump can do to protect a lawyer from being disbarred.

[Political Analyst]

Yeah. So the disbarment is nothing that a pardon can protect you from. You can be sued civilly for any actions. As we know, Rudy Giuliani successfully was, and frankly, so was Donald Trump, by Eugene Carol and by Letitia James, and all of that could take place. And so pardon for federal criminal law does not protect you from any of that civil liability. It also doesn't protect you from state criminal charges. So again, there still are guardrails. Even if the president was to be so bold as to say, destroy all evidence and I'll just pardon you for any of those crimes, there still are various levers that would help protect the rule of law in that scenario.

[News Anchor]

I want to read what Adam Kinzinger, another Republican member of the January 6 committee, said about Donald Trump's comments in that interview. He said, our hearings laid bare the reality. This was no spontaneous protest. It was an assault on the foundations of our democracy, encouraged and abetted by the former president himself. History will remember the January 6th committee as defenders of democracy and you as a man who betrayed it. You may fool some of the people some of the time, but the tide is turning. It just may take a bit. I'm confident that the name Trump will be a stain on our history, and my son will be proud of what I did. Andrew so much of this work is so important for history, the January 6 committee's work, future historians will find it absolutely invaluable. It was also obviously extremely useful for the current investigation of Donald Trump. But Adam Kinzinger's point about history is so important, especially when we consider what will probably be the soon released report by Jack Smith.

[Political Analyst]

It is absolutely the case, and it's one of the reasons that I think that Donald Trump will be quite reluctant to be pursuing any sort of court proceeding because if you're trying to whitewash history, a court proceeding is precisely how not to do that. You know, Liz Cheney or Adam Kinzinger or any member of the January 6 committee, if there were to be a criminal or civil trial, there will be a court record. They can actually call all sorts of witnesses, not just Mike Pence, but you know who else they could call? They could call Donald Trump to the stand. He has so far not testified in connection with the January 6 case, in connection with the hearings, in connection with the impeachment. So having a trial in many ways is the very last thing you want to do if you are trying to whitewash history.

[News Anchor]

Adam. Andrew, as we go forward here, the Jack Smith report could be coming, I mean, literally any day now. Is there anything that you would consider in the release of the report that would indicate a better time to release it than another time? Is it something you want to get done as soon as possible or wait till January to release it?

[Political Analyst]

Well, you know, it's mechanically, there's a lot to do, you know, having been involved in a report. And one of the things that does take time is making sure that you have culled out anything that is grand jury, anything that is national security sensitive or anything that could unfairly tarnish somebody who has not who is currently facing charges. Now there's the coup to co defendants in Mar A Lago. So I think that is the main thing thing. But I suspect they are going to release it when it's ready. They will not be thinking about this strategically.

[News Anchor]

Andrew Weissman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Political Analyst]

You're welcome.

[News Anchor]

Juan Soto has agreed to play baseball for the New York Mets for $765 million. And I know that sounds like a life changing amount of money, but it's not. Not for him because Juan Soto already is very, very rich and can buy anything he wants anytime he wants to. But much lower paying jobs really can be life changing jobs not just for one person but for entire families. We'll show you one of those life changing jobs next.

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[News Anchor]

Amen on MSNBC is now available as a podcast every Saturday and Sunday. Host Amen Mohaddin reads between the lines of the week's biggest stories spotlighting the pressing issues facing our country, our world and those fighting to solve them.

[Political Analyst]

We are tracking the fallout across the Middle East.

[News Anchor]

Tonight, Search for Amen wherever you're listening and follow and for ad free listening to this show and other MSNBC podcasts, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim is a brand new podcast from.

[News Anchor]

Sky News with me, Sky News lead.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

World News presenter Yalda Hakim and me.

[News Anchor]

Richard Engel, chief former correspondent for NBC News.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Every week we'll be reporting from the front line of the world's trouble spots.

[News Anchor]

And asking the big questions to the.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

World'S most important and influential people.

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Join us for the Ground Truth to help you understand what is happening in the world today and why it matters to you. So that's the World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim. Listen every Wednesday wherever you get your podcast. Malawi is one of the lowest income countries in the world. Average annual income in Malawi is about $500. That might be how much you make in a year of selling fruit at a roadside stand. Getting a stable job in a well run factory is like winning the lottery in Malawi. A job like that allows you to provide for your family so that they always know where their next meal is coming from. In a country that suffers from widespread food insecurity, Eunice Urungo has one of those life changing jobs working in a factory making desks for schools in Malawi.

[Factory Worker]

I'm just so privileged to be on this project of unicef making desks for the schools across Malawi. It's a rare opportunity. I've interacted with so many people and I've seen how really important these Essex are to motivate the children of Malawi and even elsewhere where people are lacking ethics and some motivation for them to go to school. Yeah, I'm so grateful to be involved in this project.

[News Anchor]

Eunice and all of the workers in that factory have their jobs thanks to your generosity to the Kind Fund Kids in Need of Desks, a partnership I created with MSNBC and UNICEF to deliver desks to schools in Malawi where most primary school students still have never seen a desk in their classroom. Your contributions are used to pay for the desks that Eunice and her co workers make every day. The kids in the classrooms get the Desks. But first the people working in those factories get those jobs. Eunice helped make the desk that her 9 year old daughter uses now in her primary school.

[Factory Worker]

Yes, I have two girls. One is nine years old and is in primary school around here. And high school has been like as they've been distributed. They've received some desks from here. Yeah, they've received some tests from this UNICEF project. They do sit on desks. Their school has desks.

[News Anchor]

Gideon Cade has two sons who use desks every day in school that he made. He told his sons to take care of the desks.

[Factory Worker]

They have to one, take care of the desks. Two, they have to work hard in schools so that they should be self reliant in future.

[News Anchor]

They should take care of their future.

[Factory Worker]

That's my advice to them.

[News Anchor]

The Kind fund also provides scholarships for girls to attend high school in Malawi where public high school is not free. And the girls graduation rate from high school is less than half the boys graduation rate. You can go toLast Word desks.msnbc.com and make a contribution in any amount. No contribution is too small. You can specify that your contribution is for desks or girls scholarships and you can make the gift in the name of anyone on your holiday gift list and UNICEF will send them an acknowledgement of your gift. As the mother of a student who uses one of these desks every day, Eunice takes her job in quality control very seriously.

[Factory Worker]

My role as a quality checker, as a quality controller, I make sure that we're giving the best of the blog post that we can give. I make sure that we are using the required materials, using the right glue, which is an exterior type of glue, and making sure that they are cut and pressed according to the required standards.

[News Anchor]

Eunice has a simple message for her daughter. Education is the key to success.

[Factory Worker]

Education is the key to success. For her to secure a job in the future when she grows up, she needs the education. Even if she doesn't get to get a job. When she wants to do business, for the business to do well, she also depends on the same education. And even for her to have the opportunity to interact with people from different countries, even like how I'm interacting with you, needs the same education. So education is a key to success and it gives you a path to.

[News Anchor]

Progressing, a path to progress. Your generosity has helped open that path to progress. Thank you. That is tonight's last word.

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It's the holiday season and the perfect time to gift yourself with a new home for the new year. For a limited time take advantage of incredible savings and incentives during Dr. Horton's it's yous Year Savings event. Going now through December 22nd, your perfect home for every holiday season is waiting for you. To find yours, visit any of our participating Dr. Horton communities or visit [e-mail] and discover the Dr. Horton difference. Dr. Horton America's Builder, an equal housing opportunity builder.