← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Lawrence: Gaetz ethics report shows Trump has the ‘worst moral’ judgment in staffing government
00:40:05
Tonight on The Last Word: The House Ethics Committee releases the Matt Gaetz report. Also, Senate Judiciary Democrats release a Supreme Court ethics report. And President Biden commutes dozens of death row sentences to life without parole. Rep. Glenn Ivey, Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse, and EJ Dionne join Lawrence O’Donnell.
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- [00:01]
Unnamed Speaker 1
When work gets crazy, I like to stop by the bar after have a few cold ones.
- [00:06]
Yara Shahidi
I don't drink at all until 4:00.
- [00:09]
Glenn Ivey
We limit ourselves to one bottle of wine a night.
- [00:12]
Unnamed Speaker 2
Excessive drinking has a way of sneaking up on us. A few drinks, a few nights a week, it can add up and suddenly we're at greater risk for long term problems like heart disease, cancer and depression. Reason enough to Rethink to Drink more at Rethink to Drink no ha initiative.
- [00:31]
Glenn Ivey
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- [01:01]
Unnamed Speaker 2
Approval well, the House Ethics Committee today released a report unlike any in the history of the House Ethics Committee. The Ethics Committee unanimously believes that former Florida Republican Congressman Matt gaetz raped a 17 year old girl in Florida. The committee quote, found substantial evidence, substantial evidence of that rape. That victim is named in the Ethics Committee report as Victim A, as reported previously on this program by an attorney for a teenager who was paid to have sex with Matt Gaetz. That teenager witnessed Matt Gaetz having sex with the 17 year old minutes after Matt Gaetz entered a party and immediately upon meeting the 17 year old, the committee report says. The committee received testimony that Victim A and Representative Gaetz had sex twice during the party, including at least once in the presence of other party attendees. Victor a recalled receiving $400 in cash from Representative Gates that evening, which she understood to be payment for sex. At the time, she had just completed her junior year of high school. Victim A acknowledged that she was under the influence of Ecstasy during her sexual encounters with Representative gates at the July 15, 2017 party and recalled seeing Representative Gates use cocaine at that party. Last month, Elon Musk was part of a group on Donald Trump's plane who convinced Donald Trump to choose Matt Gaetz to be Attorney General of the United States of America. In that passage of the Ethics Committee report, Matt Gaetz is described as committing state and federal crimes. The state and federal crime of using cocaine, the state crime of rape of a 17 year old girl in a state where the age of consent is 18. And Elon Musk said Gates will be our hammer of justice. Elon Musk wanted the first man in the history of the House of Representatives described as a rapist in a House Ethics Committee report to be the Attorney General of the United States of America. When Donald Trump made the most inappropriate choice of Attorney General in history. Donald Trump said Matt Gaetz, quote, distinguished himself in Congress. Well, he certainly did. He is the only member of Congress in history to have been unanimously adjudged by the House Ethics Committee, which includes five Republicans and five Democrats, to have, quote, violated House rules, state and federal laws and other standards of conduct, prohibiting prostitution, statutory rap, ill illicit drug use, acceptance of impermissible gifts, the provision of special favors and privileges, and obstruction of Congress. Matt Gaetz obstructed this House investigation in every way that he possibly could, which is one of the reasons the investigation took as long as it did. When Matt Gaetz resigned from Congress, he believed that that tactic of resignation would prevent this report from ever becoming public. And the Republican speaker of the House, who presents himself as the most pious Christian who has ever served in that position, did everything he possibly could to suppress this report about Matt Gaetz and prostitution, statutory rape, illicit drug use. Speaker Mike Johnson didn't want you to know about any of that. When it comes to the floor and it's a vote before the body, they will hear my preference on it. My recommendation is to vote against the release and so we'll see how that shakes out. That's when Speaker Mike Johnson got every Republican in the House, except for one, to vote to suppress this report so that you could never see it. Speaker Mike Johnson and Donald Trump and Elon Musk did not want you to know that there was a House Ethics Committee report already written that says, quote, Representative Gates used or possessed illegal drugs, including cocaine and ecstasy, on multiple occasions. Speaker Mike Johnson and Donald Trump and Elon Musk did not want you to know that there was a House Ethics Committee report already written that says, quote, Representative Gates engaged in sexual activity with a 17 year old girl. They wanted him to be the Attorney General of the United States. The House Ethics Committee report is as much a report on Donald Trump as it is on Matt Gaetz. The House Ethics Committee report represents the indisputable proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Donald Trump has the worst moral and professional judgment in the history of the presidency for staffing the federal government. Donald Trump wanted an Attorney General who committed rape in Florida. According to The House Ethics Committee. Donald Trump wanted an attorney general enforcing laws against the use of cocaine in this country who was a cocaine user himself. According to the House Ethics Committee, not every member of the House Ethics Committee agreed that this report should be released after Matt Gaetz resigned from Congress. But a majority of them did finally agree to release the report. Which means that at least one, possibly more than one, Republican on the committee voted to release the report. Every Republican on the committee agrees with every word of the findings in the report. That's the important part of this. All five Republicans on the House Ethics Committee agree with every finding, every accusation made about Matt Gaetz in this report. The committee asked Matt Gaetz to provide them any evidence that could possibly convince them that he did not do what witnesses accused him of doing in this investigation. And he provided no evidence at all, none, to the committee to change their minds and even attempt to change their minds about what they were finding. The committee's report notes, under Florida's statutory rape law, it is a felony For a person 24 years of age or older to engage in sexual activity with a 16 or 17 year old. A person charged with this offense may not claim ignorance or misrepresentation of the minor's age as a defense. Period. There is no criminal defense for Matt Gaetz having sex with a 17 year old girl in the state of Florida. The 17 year old girl told the committee that she did not discuss her age with Matt Gaetz. The committee found that Matt Gaetz attended sex and drug parties with Joel Greenberg, who the committee reports, quote, pleaded guilty to six charges including sex trafficking of victim A, sex trafficking of that 17 year old girl. So Matt Gaetz's former best friend and frequent group sex partner, Joel Greenberg is in prison tonight because of what he did to victim A. And Donald Trump wanted Matt Gaetz to be Attorney General of the United States of America after what he did to Victor May. According to the House Ethics Committee report, Elon Musk wanted Matt Gaetz to be Attorney General of the United States after raping victim A. According to the House Ethics Committee report, one of the women, young girls really, who Matt Gaetz paid for sex, told the committee under oath, quote, it's frustrating to know I lived a reality that he denies. There has been some sloppy reporting today about exactly what Matt Gaetz denies. In fact, and this is really important, Matt Gaetz has not denied today a single factual assertion in the Ethics Committee report released today. In the past, Matt Gaetz has issued blanket denials, but we didn't really know what those Denials were about just blanket denials. And those blanket denials should no longer be applied to the Ethics Committee report by anyone in the news business. The ethics committee report is specific with specific incidents. Matt Gaetz did not deny today after this report came out that he used cocaine. Matt Gaetz did not deny today after this report came out that he raped victim A. He did not deny that today. Now that we have the facts, Matt Gaetz is not contesting as of tonight a single fact in this ethics committee report, not one he has tried to suggest that you can't rely on the testimony of people who are taking drugs. Today Matt Gaetz posted this deflection saying I'm accused of being at some party five years ago. Here is the gate log for that home in a community that checks DLs for entrance. I'm not on the log. The other attendees are. But people who said they were on drugs say they remember me there. Do they also remember seeing Jimmy Hoffa there and Tupac? Here's what that post does not say and this is important. He's trying to trick you with that. That post does not say I was not there. He could have said that but he didn't. And then Matt Gaetz wants us to doubt the memories of people who were on drugs which according to the ethics committee report includes Matt Gaetz. In fact, Matt Gaetz as of now is the single biggest drug user in the House of Representatives in history according to the House Ethics Committee. The biggest drug user the House Ethics Committee has ever investigated is Matt Gaetz. Matt Gaetz, an out of control criminal drug user according to the House Ethics Committee report, wants you to doubt the memories of girls who he says who say that he paid for sex while he was taking drugs with them. Denying specific allegations in the ethics committee report is something Matt Gaetz has decided not to do today report says the record overwhelmingly suggests that Representative Gates had sex with multiple women at the party including the then 17 year old for which they were paid. Victim A acknowledged that she was under the influence influence of ecstasy during her sexual encounters with Representative gates at the July 15, 2017 party and recalled seeing Representative Gaetz use cocaine at that party. Victim A told the committee she was certain of her sexual encounters with Representative Gates on that night. The Ethics Committee report describes Matt Gaetz written answer to the committee about the question of having sex with victim A this way. Representative Gates generally denied engaging in sexual activity with a minor but refused to answer specific questions relating to his interactions with victim A. Refused to answer specific questions relating to his interactions with with victim A. I wonder why Matt Gaetz refused to testify to the House Ethics Committee. Matt Gaetz defied a subpoena to testify to the House Ethics Committee. Innocent members of the House and Senate are very eager to testify. When they are subjected to Ethics Committee investigations, they do not defy subpoenas to testify. The Ethics Committee obtained under oath testimony against Matt Gaetz, and Matt Gaetz has refused to answer any specific questions about any of that under oath testimony about him. Matt Gaetz was the first big loss after the election of Donald Trump. After the election for Donald Trump and Elon Musk, he was their first big loss. But the five Republican members of the House Ethics Committee and the five Democratic members of the House Ethics Committee conducted a thorough investigation that saved this country from having to endure Matt Gaetz as Attorney General of the United States. When Republican members of the United States Senate, some of them, a few of them, made it clear that they wanted to see the House Ethics Committee report before voting on Matt Gaetz confirmation. Matt Gaetz confirmation did not have a chance. And so Donald Trump had to drop the Matt Gaetz nomination because even without the House report being made public, everyone knew. Every Republican in the House of Representatives, including Speaker Mike Johnson, knew how bad Matt Gaetz was, and they knew how bad that report was going to be. And as bad as any of you might have thought, Matt Gaetz was, today's Ethics Committee report and victim A prove to you Matt Gaetz is even worse than that. Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Glenn Ivey of Maryland. He is a member of the House Ethics Committee. He's also a former federal prosecutor. Congressman Ivey, thank you very much for joining us tonight. And I want to thank you joining us prior to the release of this report to talk about what was happening in the Ethics Committee with the Ethics Committee in the extremely limited ways you were allowed to do that. And you did it masterfully at the time, I have to say. But I'm glad we can now have a freer discussion of this evidence for you, especially as a federal prosecutor, what was the most critical evidence that you saw in this investigation?
- [16:39]
Glenn Ivey
Well, there's quite a bit of it. I mean, I think the staff did an outstanding job, as they always do, of, you know, pulling evidence together for us. The testimony that you just referenced a moment ago was very powerful. There was also, you know, text information that was exchanged between some of these witnesses among themselves and with Mr. Gates. There was also, you know, financial records that corroborated what they'd said as well. So, you know, we had a sort of a range of information that the staff had gathered, got some from the Department of Justice and some from other sources, but mainly it was the committee getting the information on its own accord. So I thought that it all came together in a very powerful way. Certainly the testimony of Victor May, I thought was eye opening, we'll say for sure.
- [17:32]
Unnamed Speaker 2
And for you as an evaluator of evidence, you found that testimony convincing?
- [17:41]
Glenn Ivey
Yeah, I think it was very powerful in its own right. And as I mentioned, it was consistent with other statements that were given by other witnesses, text messages, bank records, not all directly on some of the allegations you just spoke of. But, you know, the totality of the circumstances, I thought supported our findings of substantial evidence of those violations. So I think it all came together in a good and positive way.
- [18:13]
Unnamed Speaker 2
As you went through this investigation. By the way, thank you for the descriptions of what the delays were about in this investigation. That's something we on the outside couldn't know without seeing everything you revealed in this report, which I urge people to read available at the committee website. As you were coming to the committee's decision about how to write this report, was there general agreement about the evidence with Democrats and Republicans? There's no dissenting in the report about the evidence?
- [18:51]
Glenn Ivey
Yeah, I mean, I can't get into the internal deliberation still, even at this point. But, you know, I think is you're, you're pointing to the dissent that raised issues about jurisdiction and objections to releasing the report in general. But, you know, pointedly made the, made it clear that they weren't disagreeing with the factual findings. So I think, you know, even though there were some disagreements about whether the report should be released, as you saw in the dissent, there were no, at least written objections to the factual findings as they were contained in the report.
- [19:32]
Unnamed Speaker 2
When you looked at this evidence, with your experience as a federal prosecutor, did you see anything in this evidence that explained to you or could explain to you why federal prosecutors did not prosecute Matt Gaetz?
- [19:51]
Glenn Ivey
Yeah, I'm not exactly clear on what their decision making process was. And you know, they have internal processes too that they don't necessarily publicize. And I think there's also the open question as to what state investigators and prosecutors might do at this point, too. I, I don't know if they've made decisions on this one way or the other, but there's, there's a lot of evidence there of, of substantial misconduct, certainly Ethics committee, but you know, House ethics violations and criminal violations, I think certainly prima facie evidence of those as well. So we'll have to see what the prosecutors decide to do at this point. But that's part of the reason we thought it made sense to release the report. You know, make it generally available to the public. The public can see it and draw their own conclusions, and the prosecutors and investigators at the state and federal level can do the same.
- [20:48]
Unnamed Speaker 2
So because he resigned, we never got to the issue. The committee never addressed the issue of what should be the penalty for this. This reads like a report that would have recommended the expulsion of any member described to have engaged in this conduct.
- [21:08]
Glenn Ivey
Well, I mean, there, you know, it's certainly very powerful evidence of very serious misconduct. You know, I don't want to jump and say that that would have been the conclusion we certainly would have reached and because that would be speculative. But I will say this. I mean, I think it's important that we put that out so that put the report out so that the public could see it also so that our colleagues can see it. And those of you who've been following this over the years can, can get a sense of what the evidence was as we found it. You know, you might, some people might disagree with how we connected the dots, but the key point, I think, at this juncture is that they can make their own conclusions now and decide for themselves as to what they think the evidence shows and whether they think, you know, criminal violations should have been prosecuted or the like.
- [22:01]
Unnamed Speaker 2
I just want to add this note that the Republican chairman of the committee added a note at the end of the report saying that, in effect, he didn't think it should be released because it was a fascinating line. He said, basically because of some precedents in the past. But at the same time, he was identifying that there does exist precedent for releasing reports like this even after the member has resigned.
- [22:28]
Glenn Ivey
Yeah, I mean, there's at least four of those that have been identified that I'm aware of anyway, that I think the, the first one we, we dated Back to was 1987. Most recent, I believe, was 2011. But those were all out in the House. Those were all investigations and reports that were released after the member had resigned or left the Congress for one reason or another. I believe there's an example of that in the Senate as well. So it doesn't happen often, and I don't know that it should happen often. But when you have these types of violations of this magnitude, the nature of these, I think, elevate this to a point where I think the public had a right to know about it. And certainly our colleagues should have known about all the conduct as well. And so I thought that that supported the decision to make it public in this instance.
- [23:23]
Unnamed Speaker 2
Congressman Glen Ivey, thank you very much for joining us on this important night. Thank you for your work on this report and thank you on behalf of the people who get to read it for voting for this report to be released.
- [23:37]
Glenn Ivey
I do want to thank my colleagues and especially the staff. I thought even when we disagreed, we did it without being disagreeable. And we've done that over the two years that I've been on the Ethics Committee. So thank you to all of them as well.
- [23:50]
Unnamed Speaker 2
Congressman Glenn Ivey, thank you very much. Really appreciate it. And coming up, Senator Sheldon Whitehouse is a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee where Matt Gaetz confirmation hearing would have been held if Matt Gaetz ever made it that far. We'll get Senator Whitehouse reaction to the Gates report next.
- [24:16]
Unnamed Speaker 1
When work gets crazy, I like to stop by the bar after, have a few cold ones.
- [24:20]
Yara Shahidi
I don't drink at all until 4:00.
- [24:24]
Glenn Ivey
We limit ourselves to one bottle of wine a night.
- [24:27]
Unnamed Speaker 2
Excessive drinking has a way of sneaking up on us. A few drinks a few nights a week, it can add up and suddenly we're at greater risk for long term problems like heart disease, cancer and depression. Reason enough to rethink the Drink more@rethinkthedrink.com Noyche Initiative.
- [24:47]
Yara Shahidi
Hey, I'm Yara Shahidi and I'm the host of the Optimist Project. This is the podcast that asks what gives you hope. Each week I sit down with change makers you may or may not know from comedy, music, academia and more to uncover what inspires them to create a better tomorrow. Join us as we find out ways that we can cultivate optimism in our own lives. You can find the Optimist Project wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode. Parents did you know that only 50% of US adults are financially literate? Millions of people don't fully understand how to manage money and it's up to you to not let your kids grow up into that statistic. With Greenlight's educational money app and parent controlled debit card, you can teach them how to earn, save and invest wisely. The earlier they learn, the better prepared they'll be to manage their money and build a financially secure life. Give your kids the financial edge they need. Sign up for Greenlight today@Greenlight.com podcast. That's Greenlight.com podcast.
- [25:52]
Unnamed Speaker 2
The House Ethics Committee report released today says there is substantial evidence that Representative Gates used cocaine, ecstasy and marijuana. At least two women saw Representative Gates using cocaine and ecstasy at different events. Even more women understood him to be to regularly be using ecstasy. And today Matt Gaetz said don't believe anyone who takes drugs. He really said that. Joining us now is Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island. He's chairman of the Senate Budget Committee. He's a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee where Matt Gaetz confirmation hearing would have taken place. And he's a member of the Senate Finance Committee. Senator, what is your reading of this Ethics Committee report?
- [26:36]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Well, I think Matt Gaetz was spared a brutal day in the Senate Judiciary Committee by getting out. It's pretty stunning. But before you even got to all these really extraordinary findings, you had a guy who Donald Trump was proposing to be the top prosecutor for the United States of America, whose only experience with criminal investigations was to be the subject of them before you even get to the conduct that alone should have been disqualifying. So to your earlier point, the reflection of this on the judgment of Donald Trump is perhaps the most remarkable part of this whole story. Setting aside all the grim and salacious details.
- [27:29]
Unnamed Speaker 2
Yeah. And Senator, that extends to other Trump nominees, Pete Hegseth for defense, Tulsi Gabbard. This, this unbelievably crazy nomination was made by the same person who made these other, is making these other nominations.
- [27:45]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Yeah. And some of the other nominations are extremely, extremely troubled. And the best defense that the Republican senators have right now is to say, well, even if we like know who you are, even if you've been paid a settlement, even if you're willing to come in and meet with us, we're not going to believe you until you release your name publicly. We're going to pretend that you're anonymous when they know perfectly well from having seen what happened to Dr. Blasey Ford, what happened to the two poll workers who Giuliani sic the flying monkeys of the far right onto. I mean, there is a really terrorizing aspect to what happens when you come forward. And so that's the best they've got is to try to make witnesses go away on the theory that they'll be terrorized and have their lives ruined if they tell the truth. That's no way to run a nomination hearing.
- [28:45]
Unnamed Speaker 2
Senator, I'd like to squeeze in a commercial break here. When we come back, I want to talk about the other big and important report that came out today from the Senate Judiciary Committee about the Supreme Court's culture of misconduct, as the report describes it. We'll be right back with Senator Sheldon Whitehouse.
- [29:06]
Yara Shahidi
Hey, I'm Yara Shahidi and I'm the host of the Optimist Project. This is the podcast that asks what gives you hope. Each week I sit down with change makers you may or may not know from comedy, music, academia, and more to uncover what inspires them to create a better tomorrow. Join us as we find out ways that we can cultivate optimism in our own lives. You can find the Optimist Project wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely and parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails. Place sign up for Greenlight today@Greenlight.com podcast. Oh my God, it's the coolest thing ever. Hey guys, have you heard of Goldbelly? Well, check this out. It's this amazing site where they ship the most iconic famous foods from restaurants across the country anywhere nationwide. I've never found a more perfect gift than food. They ship Chicago deep dish pizza, New York bagels, Maine lobster rolls, and even Ina Garten's famous cakes. Seriously. So if you're looking for a gift for the food lover in your Life, head to goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with promo code Gift.
- [30:39]
Unnamed Speaker 2
The Supreme Court has allowed a culture of misconduct to metastasize into a full blown crisis that has driven public opinion of the Court to historic lows. That scathing line is the first finding of the Senate Judiciary Committee report titled An Investigation of the Ethics Challenge at the Supreme Court. The 93 page report completes a 20 month investigation by the Senate Judiciary Committee. The committee credits ProPublica for leading the way with reporting on the Supreme Court, which provoked the Committee's investigation. But the Committee's report has revealed more unreported gifts to Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas from his most reliable patron, billionaire Harlan Crow, the Committee's report says. Since his confirmation to the Supreme Court in 1991, Justice Thomas has accepted millions of dollars in gifts from wealthy benefactors, several of whom had business before the Court and nearly all of whom first met Thomas after he joined the Court. The Number, value and extravagance of the gifts accepted by Justice Thomas have no comparison in modern American history. Senator Sheldon Whitehouse is back with us. Senator, I know this report has been important to you. The report also makes the point Chief Justice Roberts continued unwillingness to implement the only viable solution to the Court's ethical crisis is an enforceable code of conduct. That's something you have been lecturing us on for a while now.
- [32:17]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Yeah, this is a really good report, and I want to salute Chairman Durbin for pulling it all together. Over the time that this ethics mess at the Supreme Court has unraveled, it's come out in individual episodes and individuals hits this gift here, this secret trip there, this payment to somebody's wife, this payment for tuition. This report steps back and takes a look at the entire program, which I call the Billionaire Gifts Program, and it points out that there aren't a whole lot of billionaires involved, and they're all right wingers. It points out that there are only three justices involved, and they're the three farthest right wingers. It suggests a motive, which is that some of them were thinking about leaving the Court because it wasn't Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous enough. So in came the billionaires to provide them the lifestyles of the rich and famous. And then you see the same players turning up over and over and over again. So little Leonard Leo, who was sort of the mischief elf of this whole Billionaire Gifts program, turns up out at the Koch Brothers event with Scalia in the painting with Harlan Crow and Justice Thomas on the fishing trip and on the airplane with Justice Alito. So you begin to get the sense that there's a lot more to this than individual episodes. It is actually a plan and a program that the Supreme Court, at least these Justices were very, very aware of and witting of. And it puts the Chief Justices and the Judicial Conference's failure to get in there and clean it up in a, I think, rather different and more damning light.
- [34:15]
Unnamed Speaker 2
What could the Chief justice do?
- [34:17]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Oh, we just did my report about two weeks ago. Every single Supreme Court, all 50 states and the District of Columbia, have figured out how you take the system and figure out a way so that the Supreme Court Justices can be reviewed when there's a challenge to their ethical conduct. It's really simple. You have an inbox where ethics complaints can go. You have people who scream to take out the crazy ones. You have staff lawyers who investigate. And that's really the key here. There's no investigation. You don't do fact finding. If you're in the Supreme Court, everybody else does fact finding, not the Supreme Court. They won't have it. And then when you've done your fact finding, you have independent experts like other judges who compare what the facts are to what the ethics rules require and draw a conclusion about whether the rules were broken or not. No piece of that exists at the Supreme Court. Every other supreme court in all 50 states in the district has that model. And you can actually get a result from a complaint if there is, in fact, an ethics violation. And with the Supreme Court, they just pretend that nothing happened. They don't find real facts. They don't make real statements. Everything about it is a botch from a point of view of rule of law.
- [35:47]
Unnamed Speaker 2
Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
- [35:51]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Thank you.
- [35:53]
Unnamed Speaker 2
Thank you. And coming up today, 37 federal death row inmates found out that they would spend the rest of their lives in prison. That's after President Biden commuted their death sentences to life without parole. That's next. 37 federal death row inmates got the news today that they will spend the rest of their lives in prison. They will not be executed because President Joe Biden announced today that he is commuting their death sentences but commuting them to life in prison without the possibility of parole. The president did not commute the death sentences of three other federal death row inmates who were guilty of terrorism and mass murder. The president issued a statement saying, make no mistake, I condemn these murderers, grieve for the victims of their despicable acts, and ache for all the families who have suffered unimaginable and irreparable loss. But guided by my conscience and my experience as a public defender, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, vice president and now president, I am more convinced than ever that we must stop the use of the death penalty at the federal level. In good conscience, I cannot stand back and let a new administration resume executions that I halted. President Biden spoke to Pope Francis, an ardent opponent of all uses of the death penalty, last Thursday. The White House has announced that during that call, President Biden accepted the pope's invitation to visit the Vatican in January. That will likely be President Biden's final foreign trip before leaving office. Joining now is E.J. deon, an opinion columnist for the Washington Post and senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. He's also a government professor at Georgetown University. EJ it's fascinating to see the way Joe Biden's evolution on death penalty issues mirrors public opinion. He was supportive of the death penalty in the 1990s, when it was at 1, is at a pretty high level of support. It's diminished over time. His support for it has now all been evaporated.
- [38:08]
E.J. Dionne
And he really does follow where the public was way back in the mid-1960s. Plurality of Americans actually opposed the death penalty. And then we had the great crime wave that began in the late 1960s and continued into the 1990s. And that crime wave made people angry. It made them mistrust the criminal justice system. And so opposition to the death penalty dropped from around 47% back in 1966 all the way down to 13% in 1995. Only 13% of Americans opposed the death penalty then. And then something happened. The crime rate started dropping. And just to give you a sense of that, in 1991, the murder rate was 9.8 per 100,000. Last year it had dropped to 5.7. And this year it'll probably drop a little lower. Americans got more confidence in the criminal justice system, and they were willing to rethink whether putting someone to death is actually the best response to murder. It doesn't bring the dead person back. I think the other thing that's happened is that a lot of religious people, including abortion opponents, have taken the words right to life seriously and said, you know, we want to hold this across the board. And you mentioned Pope Francis, the American Catholic bishops, who are very conservative on a lot of stuff, as we both know, had urged Biden to take this step. And I thought one of the most moving statements in response to. To this came from retired police officer named Donnie Leverio, and his partner, Brian Hurst was murdered by one of the people who sentenced Biden commuted. And he said that he agreed with this, that he would find no peace by having the perpetrator put to death. And he made a point of saying this is consistent with the faith that both the president and I share. So I think you have some developments, sort of ethical thinking on the one side, and the reaction to the drop in the crime rates.
- [40:32]
Unnamed Speaker 2
Yeah. And commuting the death sentence does leave each of these prisoners in prison for the rest of their lives.
- [40:42]
E.J. Dionne
Exactly right. And I think it's very important in the whole death penalty. You and I have followed the death penalty debate all our lives. Really. And what you found, even at the height of the death penalty, is that there were a lot of people who could say, all right, if it's really life without parole, if there's no possibility that someone will be let out, that is a just and legitimate punishment. And biden underscored that these folks will still be in jail for life. They will pay a big price for these horrible crimes. And again, I think that's consistent with a certain ethical sense Americans have about this.
- [41:25]
Unnamed Speaker 2
E.J. deon, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
- [41:28]
E.J. Dionne
It's very good to be with you. LAWRENCE ON thank you. What I think is a good night for Christmas.
- [41:35]
Unnamed Speaker 2
Thank you very much. E.J.
- [41:36]
E.J. Dionne
Peace on Earth.
- [41:37]
Glenn Ivey
Thank you.
- [41:38]
E.J. Dionne
Take care.
- [41:39]
Glenn Ivey
Bye.
- [41:39]
Unnamed Speaker 2
Thank you. Tonight's Last Word is next. If you're like me and you haven't finished your holiday shopping, you might take a minute to consider the kind fund kids in need of desks. The partnership I created between MSNBC and UNICEF to provide desks to schools in Malawi where the students have never had desks and to provide scholarships for girls to attend high school in Malawi, where public high school is not free and the girls high school graduation rate is less than half the boys graduation rate.
- [42:12]
Unnamed Speaker 1
I can tell you that a desk.
- [42:13]
Glenn Ivey
Delivered at the school, that's Christmas for these kids. Christmas comes in December 25th and pretty much nothing happens in their lives. When a desk is delivered to them at a school that is Christmas, you have made their day. You have made their year. You have made their lives.
- [42:32]
Unnamed Speaker 2
For most of the kids at these schools who own nothing, no toys, nothing, their very first sense of possession is the feeling they get when they sit at that new desk that they will call my desk. Waiwilema is 9 years old and won't be sitting on the floor in her classroom anymore today to get desks. I will be happy because when I will not sit on the floor and my uniform will not be dirty and my handwriting will be so very beautiful. Day six will help me to learn properly because when I sit on the desk, I will look properly on the front and when teacher is teaching to the front, I will hear properly. And when y is ready to go to high school, we'll be ready to help her with a scholarship to attend high school. You can help kids like why by going to lastworddesk.msnbc.com you can make a contribution in any amount and specify that your contribution is for desks or girl scholarships. You can make a gift in the name of anyone on your holiday gift list and UNICEF will send them an acknowledgement of your gift. Your kindness can give students in Malawi a future. In future, I want to become a doctor to help sick people and find money to feed my family. Why Mulema gets tonight's last word.
- [44:11]
Glenn Ivey
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