Lawrence: Ghislaine Maxwell may have already earned her Trump pardon on his final day in office

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell Episode: Lawrence: Ghislaine Maxwell may have already earned her Trump pardon on his final day in office
Release Date: August 12, 2025
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell, MSNBC

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Introduction and Overview

In this episode of The Last Word, Lawrence O'Donnell delves deep into the intricate connections between former President Donald Trump, Jeffrey Epstein, and Ghislaine Maxwell. Drawing from his extensive background in politics and media, O'Donnell provides a comprehensive analysis of recent legal developments and their broader political implications.

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The Grand Jury Transcripts Controversy

Timestamp: [01:00]

O'Donnell opens by discussing a federal judge's characterization of the Trump Justice Department's request to unseal grand jury transcripts in Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal case. The judge dismissed the request as a "diversion," suggesting Trump aimed to shift media focus away from his alleged ties to Epstein.

Key Points:

• The grand jury transcripts in question were deemed to contain "nothing new" beyond Maxwell's trial testimonies.
• The Trump administration's push to unseal the transcripts is portrayed as a tactic to distract from Trump's associations with Epstein and Maxwell.

Notable Quote:

"Diversion is what Donald Trump is all about. Now more than ever." – Lawrence O'Donnell [01:00]

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Judge Paul Engelmeier's Ruling

Timestamp: [05:00] & [31:07]

Judge Engelmeier, appointed by President Barack Obama, provided a detailed explanation in his 31-page ruling, stating that unsealing the grand jury transcripts would not uncover any meaningful new information. He emphasized that the transcripts did not reveal additional victims, new methods of operation, or undisclosed financial details about Epstein and Maxwell.

Key Points:

• The grand juries did not serve investigative purposes but rather reviewed compiled evidence.
• The transcripts lacked firsthand witness testimonies and did not introduce third-party involvements.
• Judge Engelmeier criticized the Trump Justice Department’s arguments as "demonstrably false."

Notable Quote:

"Its entire premise that the Maxwell grand jury materials would bring to light meaningful new information... is demonstrably false." – Judge Paul Engelmeier [05:00]

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Ghislaine Maxwell's Recent Prison Transfer and Potential Pardon

Timestamp: [09:41] - [31:07]

O'Donnell explores Maxwell's transfer from a federal prison in Florida to a minimum-security facility in Texas, describing it as a "country club" environment. He suggests this move, coupled with Maxwell's recent meeting with Todd Blanche (Trump's former defense lawyer and current Deputy Attorney General), indicates that Maxwell might be positioning herself for a pardon.

Key Points:

• Maxwell's lack of cooperation with federal prosecutors during her trial, avoiding perjury charges.
• Speculation on the influence of Todd Blanche in securing favorable treatment for Maxwell.
• O'Donnell predicts mass pardons on Trump's final day, with Maxwell being a prime candidate.

Notable Quote:

"Maxwell never felt safe talking to a federal prosecutor before... that's why she never did it." – Lawrence O'Donnell [15:30]

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Analysis of Diversion Tactics Employed by Trump

Timestamp: [23:21] - [35:17]

The discussion shifts to how Trump reportedly uses various distractions—such as tariffs and associations with controversial figures—to divert public attention from his legal issues. O'Donnell cites historical instances and current strategies to highlight this pattern.

Key Points:

• Comparison of Trump's tactics to previous political diversions.
• The role of media and public perception in sustaining Trump's influence.
• The legitimacy and intentions behind releasing certain legal documents.

Notable Quote:

"Donald Trump's attempts at diversion have become ever more frantic." – Lawrence O'Donnell [23:21]

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Expert Insights: Congressman Daniel Goldman and Andrew Weissmann

Timestamp: [24:19] - [35:17]

Dan Goldman, a Democratic Congressman from New York and member of the House Judiciary Committee, discusses the futility of the Justice Department's attempt to unseal the grand jury transcripts. He labels the move as a "diversion tactic" and emphasizes that the transcripts held no new information.

Key Points from Goldman:

• Confirmation that the Justice Department knew the transcripts were inconsequential before requesting their release.
• Critique of Todd Blanche’s involvement and potential conflicts of interest.
• The broader implications for Trump's involvement in the Epstein-Maxwell case.

Notable Quote:

"This is all a charade to continue to deflect from Donald Trump's inclusion in the Epstein files." – Daniel Goldman [25:23]

Andrew Weissmann, a former FBI general counsel and MSNBC legal analyst, further critiques the Justice Department's actions, highlighting procedural irregularities and the politicization of the case.

Key Points from Weissmann:

• Judge Engelmeier's detailed criticism of the Justice Department's motion.
• Historical precedents that showcase the rarity and inappropriateness of such legal maneuvers.
• The undermining of the Department's credibility through these actions.

Notable Quote:

"It's a complete diversion and distraction and they ought to release the Epstein files." – Daniel Goldman [28:06]

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Economic Policies and Trump's Tariffs with Congressman Brendan Boyle

Timestamp: [35:17] - [41:23]

The conversation transitions to the economic ramifications of Trump's tariff policies. Congressman Brendan Boyle of Pennsylvania criticizes Trump's tariffs as economically damaging, exacerbating inflation and disproportionately affecting low-income Americans.

Key Points:

• Trump's tariffs are equated to taxes on consumers, increasing the cost of imported goods.
• The administration's delay in implementing tariffs showcases inconsistency and economic mismanagement.
• Boyle highlights the negative impact of the Trump Republican budget bill, which favors high-income earners while burdening lower-income households.

Notable Quotes:

"Donald Trump's insane tariff policies... interest rates haven't come down and inflation is back soaring again." – Brendan Boyle [38:48]
"This will cost those households, on average, $1,200 a year." – Brendan Boyle [39:05]

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Conclusion and Final Remarks

Timestamp: [41:23]

Lawrence O'Donnell wraps up the episode by underscoring the intertwined nature of Trump's legal battles and economic policies, suggesting that these maneuvers are part of a broader strategy to maintain his political influence while deflecting scrutiny.

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Summary

In this episode, Lawrence O'Donnell presents a compelling narrative that intertwines legal intricacies and political strategies surrounding Donald Trump, Jeffrey Epstein, and Ghislaine Maxwell. Through expert interviews and detailed analysis, O'Donnell argues that Trump's recent legal actions are strategic diversions aimed at protecting his legacy and obscuring his connections to Epstein and Maxwell. Additionally, the discussion on economic policies highlights the detrimental effects of Trump's tariffs, further painting a picture of a leader employing multiple tactics to retain power amidst mounting controversies.

Notable Themes:

• Diversion Tactics: Using legal maneuvers and economic policies to shift public attention.
• Legal Integrity: Scrutiny of the Justice Department's actions and motivations.
• Political Strategy: Anticipated pardons and their implications on the political landscape.
• Economic Impact: The real-world consequences of tariff policies on different socioeconomic groups.

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This detailed summary encapsulates the critical discussions and insights from the episode, providing listeners with a thorough understanding of the complex issues addressed by Lawrence O'Donnell and his guests.

Transcript

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

A diversion that's what a federal judge called Donald Trump's Justice Department's request to unseal the grand jury testimony in the criminal case of Ghislaine Maxwell, in which she was convicted of sex trafficking for and with Jeffrey Epstein, who said he was Donald Trump's closest friend for 10 years. Diversion is what Donald Trump is all about. Now more than ever. Donald Trump doesn't want the news media attention on his old friend Jeffrey Epstein and what the Epstein files might say about Donald Trump. Where we know Donald Trump's name appears multiple times because his attorney general told him that Donald Trump is sending the national guard into Washington, D.C. five years late. Donald Trump didn't activate any troops on January 6th when his private troops were attacking the Capitol after he told them to go there and fight like hell. And he lied to them when he told them that he was going to go there with them. The biggest crime spree in the history of Washington, D.C. was on January 6th for Donald Trump, and Donald Trump did not send the National Guard that day. But now Donald Trump wants us all to be talking about his decision to send just enough National Guard troops onto the streets of Washington, D.C. so that news cameras can get pictures of them. The same pictures we've seen from Los Angeles, where the troops had absolutely nothing to do and are there for no reason at all other than as a diversion. A diversion from Donald Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, which may be described in the Epstein files In a way that Donald Trump wants to keep secret forever. Donald Trump is going to put 200 National Guard troops on the streets of Washington D.C. that means there will be more hotel doormen on the streets of Washington D.C. than National Guard troops. There are 3,400 Washington D.C. police officers in addition to 1,800 Capitol Police officers, bringing the total uniformed police officer count in Washington D.C. to 5,200. Without even counting the hundreds of federal uniform officers working in law enforcement in Washington D.C. thousands of them actually, as U.S. marshals, Secret Service agents, FBI agents and others. And so the 200 National Guard troops who will be on the street are just a photo op. He'll have to send 800 total in order to cover the 8 hour shifts, but only 200 at a time will be on the street. And that will just be for the pictures, a photo op to please Trump voters who apparently want Donald Trump to play these games with troops in cities that elect Democratic mayors. We will surely see this same scene play out in other cities that Donald Trump hates because Democrats live there. The troops presence will always be tiny compared to the police force already in place. But the TV cameras will magnify the troops presence and the endless talk about them online and on cable news and elsewhere will have Donald Trump's intended effect of amusing his supporters and diverting attention from Donald Trump's friendship with Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. Ghislaine Maxwell remains the only child rapist in history who received well wishes from a President of the United States. Donald Trump said, I wish her well after this was after she was charged with sex trafficking and after she was charged with sexually abusing children. That's when Donald Trump said, I wish her well. And so Donald Trump's attempts at diversion have become ever more frantic. Donald Trump is using tariffs, he's using Vladimir Putin now. He's using whatever he can think of, whenever he can think of it, to create the kind of diversion that a federal judge found today when he denied the release of the transcripts of the Ghislaine Maxwell grand jury. In his 31 page ruling, the judge revealed what is in the grand jury transcripts. Now we know the judge described the testimony to the grand jury without quoting any of it and reduced it all to this. There is no there there. The judge read the grand jury transcripts and wrote this in his ruling. The court's review confirmed that unsealing the grand jury materials would not reveal new information of consequence. There's no there there. There's no new information in the grand jury transcripts. That's what the judge told us today, and that is what Donald Trump already knew before Donald Trump's attorney general and Donald Trump's deputy attorney general, who used to be Donald Trump's personal criminal defense lawyer, asked to have those meaningless grand jury transcripts unsealed. They knew there was no new information in the secret grand jury transcripts that was not already revealed at the Ghislaine Maxwell trial. They knew that everything in those transcripts came out in public testimony in Ghislaine Maxwell's trial, where Ghislaine Maxwell did not dare testify under oath in her own defense. That's why the judge that Trump, who was asked to unseal the jury transcripts, calls it a diversion. The judge said there's nothing in those transcripts that we don't already know from Maxwell's trial. The judge said that the Trump Justice Department's argument for releasing the grand jury transcripts was, quote, demonstrably false. Demonstrably false. You could spend an entire career in the law prior to the Trump era and never see a federal judge describe the Justice Department's position as demonstrably false. But New York federal Judge Paul Engelmeier, who was appointed by President Barack Obama, said this about the Trump Justice Department's argument. Its entire premise that the Maxwell grand jury materials would bring to light meaningful new information about Epstein's and Maxwell's crimes or the government's investigation into them, is demonstrably false. The judge described what happened in the Maxwell grand jury and in the Epstein grand jury, saying, quote, first, the grand juries in this case were not used for investigative purposes. They did not hear testimony from any firsthand witness to any event at issue. They did not hear testimony from any victim, eyewitness suspect, or even a records custodian. Each grand jury received evidence on a single day. On that day, it heard testimony from one person, a law enforcement agent who, acting as a summary witness, testified to information obtained in the government's investigation to support the charges in the indictment. The agent, responding to tightly structured questions from an assistant United States Attorney, provided highly abbreviated hearsay accounts of the statements of select witnesses, the victims on whom the counts in the proposed indictment were based. The agent led the jury through a PowerPoint of exhibits, photographs, and business records. At the end of the testimony, the agent testified that he or she had not disclosed all that he or she knew, but had only responded to the Assistant United States Attorney's questions. Afterwards, each grand jury voted to return the proposed indictment. The judge revealed that the grand Jury transcripts, quote, do not identify any person other than Epstein and Maxwell as having had sexual contact with a minor. They do not discuss or identify any client of Epstein's or Maxwell's. They do not reveal any heretofore unknown means or methods of Epstein's or Maxwell's crimes. They do not reveal new venues at which their crimes occurred.

[Daniel Goldman]

They.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

They do not reveal new sources of their wealth. They do not explore the circumstances of Epstein's death. Donald Trump knew all of that before announcing that his Attorney General and his former criminal defense lawyer were going to request the release of the grand jury testimony. They knew that there was nothing in that transcript that had not already come out publicly. In Ghislaine Maxwell's trial, the judge said it would be reasonable for a member of the public to, quote, conclude that the government's motion for their unsealing was aimed not at transparency, but at diversion, aimed not at full disclosure, but at the illusion of such. And that's exactly what we reported to you on this program. On the very night that Donald Trump announced that he was going to ask for the grand jury transcripts to be released, the judge reviewed the Justice Department's public history of statements about the case. Before the Trump Justice Department asked to release the grand jury transcripts, the judge quoted a public memo released by the Attorney General and the FBI director. When they announced that they would not release a single page of the Epstein files and that there was nothing more to investigate, the judge quoted the Trump Justice Department's memoir saying, it is the determination of the Department of Justice and the Federal Bureau of Investigation that no further disclosure would be appropriate or warranted. In that memo, the Trump Justice Department and the Trump FBI said, we did not uncover evidence that could predicate an investigation against uncharged third parties. So after Donald Trump's Attorney General and Donald Trump's FBI director studied the Epstein files and they put thousands of FBI agents to work studying the Epstein files to find, among other things, every mention of Donald Trump's name. They discovered that the case should just be closed. They discovered that there is no one else who should face any charges and no one else who should even be the subject of any kind of investigation. We did not uncover evidence that could predicate an investigation against uncharged third parties. That means, among others, Bill Clinton. Even though Bill Clinton took four trips on Jeffrey Epstein's plane over a two year period to Europe, Asia and Africa and never to Jeffrey Epstein's island, the Trump Justice Department said in their memo of July 6th of this year that there's Absolutely nothing suspicious about anything that Bill Clinton ever did with Jeffrey Epstein on Jeffrey Epstein's plane. Nothing to investigate there. That's the official position of the Trump Justice Department about Bill Clinton's involvement with Jeffrey Epstein, that there's no reason at all to investigate Bill Clinton or anyone else who was ever on the Epstein plane or in Jeffrey Epstein's home or in Jeffrey Epstein's island. The Trump Justice Department put it in writing that there's no reason to bring charges against anyone other than Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. But on Sunday, Vice President James David Vance said this in an interview on the Fox propaganda channel, quote, democrat political leaders went to Epstein island all the time. Who knows what they did? But it's totally reasonable to ask these questions. According to a public memo written by Donald Trump's Attorney General and Donald Trump's FBI director who had a meeting with J.D. vance in the White House last Wednesday night, the answer to that question is they did nothing. The people JD Vance is talking about, they did nothing. That's the official FBI Justice Department answer. The answer to that question is there is no one else, no one else to investigate for any reason in the Jeffrey Epstein case. J.D. vance went on to say in that same interview, of course we know that Clinton, or allegedly he was, went to the island 26 times, 28 times. Bill Clinton says he went to the island zero times. And no one has ever, ever been able to contradict that in any way. And Donald Trump's attorney general believes Bill Clinton, Donald Trump's FBI director believes Bill Clinton, because they put that in writing, that there's no one else to investigate and nothing else to investigate in this case. J.D. vance said that Democratic political leaders went to Epstein island all the time. Those were his words. Name one. Name one. If a single Democratic political leader had ever been to Epstein island, we'd know about it. J.D. vance is suggesting that Donald Trump's Attorney General and Donald Trump's FBI director are protecting all sorts of Democratic political leaders who went to Epstein island, whose names are in the Epstein files. I guess, having gone to Epstein island, and that Donald Trump's Justice Department is protecting those Democratic leaders. J.D. vance will tell that lie and will tell any lie for Donald Trump about Jeffrey Epstein. Donald Trump flew on Jeffrey Epstein's plane eight times. That's eight times. Bill Clinton took four trips on Jeffrey Epstein's plane with multiple stops in Europe, Asia and Africa, but just four trips. Donald Trump took eight. The Epstein files surely have details about all of those trips, But Donald Trump is opposed to releasing the the Epstein files. That's why he created the diversion of asking for the release of the grand jury transcripts. Donald Trump's old friend Ghislaine Maxwell was, to her delight, but surely not her surprise, moved from a federal prison in Florida to a minimum security facility in Texas located near her family, which one former federal prison official describes as a country club. That move came just days after Ghislaine Maxwell decided to submit to a meeting and discussion with Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer, who now just happens to be the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche. Ghislaine Maxwell never felt safe talking to a federal prosecutor before or a federal agent of any kind, which is why she's never done it before. There's only one federal official in history who Ghislaine Maxwell was willing to talk to, and that's Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer, who is a friend of Ghislaine Maxwell's current criminal defense lawyer. Ghislaine Maxwell no doubt worried that she could be caught in lies if she ever spoke to a federal prosecutor before Todd Blanche, which is one reason why she never did it and why she never testified in her trial. Ghislaine Maxwell was already charged with perjury before her criminal trial and was not willing to run the risk of adding perjury charges by testifying under oath in her own defense. She didn't say one word in her defense during her sentencing hearing. When she did speak in court directly to the judge. What could Todd Blanche, the Deputy Attorney General, Donald Trump's former personal criminal defense lawyer, have possibly said to his friend Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal defense lawyer to make her so comfortable as to welcome Todd Blanche to come to see her in Florida and talk about her case or whatever they talked about over those two days? Did Ghislaine Maxwell promise Todd Blanche that she would never say an incriminating word about Donald Trump? Did Ghislaine Maxwell make that promise with the hope or understanding that she would be getting out of prison by the last day of the Trump presidency, less than three and a half years from now? Did Ghislaine Maxwell come out of that meeting with Todd Blanche thinking she only has three and a half more years in prison instead of the 20 years that she was sentence serve? Ghislaine Maxwell's lawyers have lied publicly since that meeting, claiming that she is a scapegoat in the Jeffrey Epstein case. The Maxwell lawyers tell the lie that Ghislaine Maxwell was prosecuted simply because Jeffrey Epstein died in prison and someone had to be prosecuted. In his ruling today, Judge Engelmeier reminded everyone what Ghislaine Maxwell was charged with a six count indictment against Maxwell alleging that she had facilitated and participated in Epstein's sexual abuse of multiple minor girls. It charged her with conspiracy to entice minors to travel, to engage in illegal sex acts, conspiracy to transport minors with intent to engage in illegal sexual activity, two counts of perjury. The judge then offered his description of what was proved beyond a reasonable doubt to the jury at Ghislaine Maxwell's trial and there will be a flood of pardons issued on Donald Trump's last day in office, that's for sure. Most of them will be undeserving, many of them will be flagrantly scandalous, and some of the most outrageous pardons on that day may be chosen just to take some of the outrage away from a pardon of Ghislaine Maxwell, the pardon she may have earned already in her conversation with Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer, Todd Blanche. If the day comes when Todd Blanche and Donald Trump try to convince Trump followers that Ghislaine Maxwell was just a scapegoat who was unfairly prosecuted, what Judge Paul Engelmeier wrote about her today should be remembered on that day. If Ghislaine Maxwell is ever shown that special mercy that is now within Donald Trump's pardon power the next time he wishes her well. Judge Engelmeier said that in her trial it was proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Maxwell had been instrumental in an approximately decade long scheme with Epstein to entice, groom, transport and traffic numerous young women and underage girls to engage in sexual activity with Epstein. Maxwell helped identify vulnerable girls for abuse, targeting those who faced difficult family circumstances including financial hardship, substance use disorders and prior sexual abuse. Maxwell purported to befriend the girls to gain their trust and create the illusion of friendship and responsible adult supervision while isolating them from others. She then manipulated that trust to normalize sexual abuse by Epstein and herself, often through the pretext of giving Epstein massages. Maxwell personally participated in acts of sexual abuse, including, for example, instructing then 14 year old Jane how to touch Epstein's penis during a massage and touching Jane's breasts herself. Maxwell and Epstein also paid young girls hundreds of dollars of cash in exchange for meeting Epstein to be sexually abused. Once a girl was introduced to these sexualized massages, she was offered more money if she brought other girls to engage in sexualized massages. Maxwell also fostered a culture of silence at Epstein's various households where sexual abuse occurred, directing employees to see nothing, hear nothing, say nothing. Elaine Maxwell personally participated in acts of sexual abuse and then told her victims to see nothing, hear nothing, say nothing. She was doing that while she and Jeffrey Epstein were friends with Donald Trump. And after she got indicted for that, Donald Trump said, I wish her well. And now Donald Trump is telling his followers that when it comes to the Epstein files, now it's their turn to see nothing, hear nothing, say nothing. Congressman Daniel Goldman will join us after this break.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Today, New York Congressman Dan Goldman posted Bondi and Blanche especially knew the transcripts contained nothing new. As many of us who worked in the Southern District of New York said Judge Engelmeier is a tough, objective and very thorough judge. If he says this request was simply a diversion tactic, you know it is. Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Daniel Goldman of New York. He's a member of the House Judiciary Committee. Congressman Goldman, thank you very much for joining us tonight. It's so fascinating with each legal turn here, a new judge gets a new opportunity to clarify what's actually going on in this case. What the case is actually about in relation to defendant Maxwell. But also today, what these grand jury transcripts actually contain. And as you point out, this is something the Attorney General and the deputy Attorney general already knew, which means Donald Trump already knew what was in those grand jury transcripts.

[Daniel Goldman]

Well, Donald Trump shouldn't know, but I'm sure he does. And the reality is that this was a diversion tactic from the get go, because first of all, the Department of Justice Bondi blanch had access to the grand jury transcript, so they knew what was in it. But anybody who has practiced in the Southern District of New York knows that very rarely and only in certain complex cases is the grand jury used really as an investigative body. And ordinarily, you put your case agent, your FBI agent in the grand jury and you go through all of the evidence because hearsay is allowed in federal grand juries. So that case agent will explain what all the other witnesses have said. And it's very narrowly tailored just to the indictment. This is not some exploratory investigation. So everybody knew that there was nothing in there that would be revealing. And I thought the most telling thing from Judge Engelmeier's opinion today is that the only temptation he had to release the grand jury testimony was to show what a lie and what false representations were made by the Department of Justice about these grand jury testimonies, as if they would include something new, which, of course, they did not. But let's go back to the beginning, Lawrence. This was the first thing that Donald Trump used to divert all the pressure and attention on his involvement in the Jeffrey Epstein files. It's a nothing burger. Many knew it was a nothing burger. Now we have confirmation that it's a nothing burger. The second thing, as you said, is Ghislaine Maxwell. Well, she would have had an opportunity to come in and cooperate with the Southern District of New York and get much low, get a much lower sentence than 20 years. She did not do that. And there are many reasons why a defendant does not do that, but it's not as if she never had an opportunity before. So this is all a charade to continue to deflect from Donald Trump's inclusion in the Epstein files.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, I mean, I just am marveling at the kind of communication that would be necessary between Todd Blanche, now a deputy attorney general who is friends with Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal defense lawyer. What could he possibly have said to suddenly make Ghislaine Maxwell comfortable enough for the first time in her criminal life to talk to a federal official?

[Daniel Goldman]

Well, it's even worse than that, Lawrence, you don't have to be friends to understand that the deputy Attorney general never ever interviews witnesses and he certainly wouldn't do that without the blind prosecutors, the prosecutors who tried the case and who actually know the evidence. Because you would want someone there who understands the case to measure whether or not what she was saying adds up. So even in and of itself, it's a preposterous notion that you would have the number two person in the Department of Justice who is really responsible for running the day to day operation of 115,000 employee department actually spending two full days interviewing a witness about who knows what, that she could have been interviewed before, but with people who knew what she was doing and it could have been useful to the Department of Justice. This is unbelievable that Todd Blanche especially continues to be Donald Trump's personal criminal defense lawyer, yet acting as the Deputy Attorney General. And that's all this is trying to deflect from him. It's a complete diversion and distraction and they ought to release the Epstein files.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Former federal prosecutor now Congressman Daniel Goldman, thank you very much for starting off our discussion tonight.

[Daniel Goldman]

Thanks, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. And Andrew Weissman will join us next.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Here'S more of what Judge Paul Engelmeier wrote in his decision denying the Trump Justice Department's request to unseal the grand jury transcript in the sex trafficking conspiracy run by Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. Any argument that the government's motion to unseal merits substantial deference is weakened by a host of irregularities with respect to that motion. That motion was not made, nor has it been joined in by any member of the government's trial team, the Department of Justice lawyers presumably most familiar with with the Maxwell case and the broader Epstein Maxwell investigation. The motion was filed by the deputy attorney general alone, without any signatory from the U.S. attorney's office in this district, and it was made under circumstances suggestive of haste rather than reflective deliberation. Joining our discussion now is Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel and former chief of the Criminal Division in the Eastern District of New York. He's an MSNBC legal analyst. Andrew, for the judge to call it a host of irregularities was, it seems, gentle language for what we're actually talking about here.

[Todd Blanche]

I think that's right. But you have to remember this judge is coming out of the same courthouse as where he saw all of the Eric Adams shenanigans, where again, you saw that the deputy attorney general's office taking unilateral action without any member of the career trial team, which really smacks politicization and weaponization, exactly what the department says it's not doing. I would note that Judge Engelmeier did actually lower the boom in terms of the language he uses, whereas Congressman Goldman said, he says on page 20 that the one thing that he thought long and hard about was disclosing this and I quote, because it would, quote, expose as disingenuous the government's public explanations for moving to unseal, unquote, that is saying that the reason he thought about unsealing is it would show that they were lying. That is strong language. But you know, we have seen that from judges across the country with this administration.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. And he reached for that old New York case of a New York politician who demanded that the grand jury transcripts be released to show that he never took the Fifth Amendment. Mario Biagi, for those of you who can remember, and of course, so that they released them to prove that he was lying, that yes, indeed, he did refuse to answer about 17 questions. It was an amazing passage in the judges ruling today, really saying as clearly as he possibly could, he doesn't believe what the government is doing and he could kind of hurt them by releasing these transcripts.

[Todd Blanche]

I think the other thing that took sort of a shot correctly, both at Ghislaine Maxwell but also at Todd Blanche and the government was pointing out how many times Ghislaine Maxwell has lied and on page five says that she lied to the court, to victims, to pretrial services in a civil deposition, pointing out whatever you're going to say, oh, suddenly she's saying X. This is a woman who you have a judge saying has repeatedly lied over and over again. And that is both attacking her in terms of what has been found with what she did, but also saying about Todd Blanche, what on God's green earth are you doing? Without even the trial team there's taking her word for this and now giving her this benefit of a cushy prison assignment which no other person would have received.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Andrew Weisman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Todd Blanche]

You're welcome.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up after Donald Trump attacked our guest on this program last week, Nobel prize winning economist Paul Krugman for what Professor Krugman said here about the Trump tariffs. Today, Donald Trump proved Paul Krugman's point once again about the economic madness of the Trump tariffs by delaying the illegal Trump tariffs for another 90 days. That and more is next with Congressman Brendan Boyle. It was another taco day for Donald Trump. That's the Wall street term, taco, meaning Trump always chickens out. The phrase Wall street had to come up with to describe Donald Trump's approach to his own illegal tariffs. The today, Donald Trump delayed implementing his illegal unconstitutional tariffs on imports from China by another 90 days. But before that, he told his most repeated lie about tariffs.

[Todd Blanche]

China tariff deadline is tonight, or do.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You plan to extend that? We'll see what happens. China's been, we've been dealing very nicely with China, as you probably have heard. They have have tremendous tariffs that they're paying to the United States of America. And we'll see what happens. China has never paid a tariff to the United States of America and never will. No foreign country has ever paid a tariff set by another country. That is impossible. 100% of the Trump tariff revenue that is being collected at the ports of entry in the United States and sent to the United States treasury has been collected only from Americans who are importing those goods and paying the tariff here in the United States. Joining our discussion now is Democratic Congressman Brendan Boyle of Pennsylvania. He's the top Democrat on the House Budget Committee and a member of the House Ways and Means Committee, which has jurisdiction over tariffs as the Constitution provided. Congressman Boyle, we keep going with this and we keep seeing the 90 day extensions and the random application of some tariffs. And still the congressional power that Republicans have over tariffs, they are ignoring that power and letting Donald Trump just do it.

[Brendan Boyle]

You know, Lawrence, Donald Trump sadly won my state of Pennsylvania, the biggest battleground state in every presidential election. Won it by just over one point because more than any other issue, he promised to bring down costs for the American people. Well, here we are about eight months later, and he's failed to do that. In fact, costs have only gone up. The problem has gotten worse. The tragedy is, by the end of last year, for the first time in the post pandemic era, inflation was back down to almost 2%. The Fed was saying they were projecting they would be able to cut interest rates three times this year. And yet Donald Trump's insane tariff policies, which every time people say tariff, I tend to use the word tax because that's exactly what it is, as you know, a tax on any good that you're buying that comes from overseas. So because of his dramatic tax increase on American consumers now interest rates haven't come down and inflation is back soaring again for the first time, really since 2021.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And there's another big cost that you've identified, which is the Trump Republican budget bill and how that is costing our lowest income Americans. And it's a huge profit center for the highest income Americans.

[Brendan Boyle]

Yeah. And you know, this is quite different, as you'll remember, from the Reagan tax cuts in the early 80s or the two rounds of George W. Bush tax cuts, or even Donald Trump's original tax cuts in 2017. Everyone in the income distribution was better off. Those tax cuts were all skewed heavily toward the wealthy. But at least they could argue that everyone was getting something. Everyone would be better off. That's not the case with this big ugly bill that is now law and just was passed a month ago. In fact, the Congressional Budget Office certified today that for the bottom one third of households, they are actually poorer off as a result of this bill. This will cost those households, on average, $1,200 a year. That is yet another essentially dramatic tax increase. And for the wealthiest 1% of Americans, they will get a bigger benefit from this bill than any previous bill in American history.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And so with inflation looming because of these tariffs, Donald Trump want, wants to make it harder to count that inflation by cutting the budget of the office that does try to count that inflation and now by trying to install someone of his own choosing who will give him an inflation number that he, that he will accept.

[Brendan Boyle]

Yeah. You know, I was wondering, whatever happened to Baghdad Bob and 20 years ago, I guess he's now essentially the new head of the bls. The real danger, of course, is that the markets, and no serious person will any more trust the official labor statistics. There are other private sector supply data that can maybe fill in the gap, but this is actually going to make the Fed's job a lot harder. It's going to make all of our jobs a lot harder. To get a clear picture on what the jobs data is, it also just again shows the remarkable insecurity of the man who occupies the White House, that when he gets a bad jobs report, rather than actually changing the policies that led to those bad job numbers, he instead fires the messenger.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Congressman Brendan Boyle, thank you very much for joining us again tonight. Thank you. Congressman Brendan Boyle gets tonight's last word.

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