Lawrence: How can Democrats negotiate with Trump, the 'world's most powerful man-baby'?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell – How can Democrats negotiate with Trump, the 'world's most powerful man-baby'?

Host: Lawrence O’Donnell
Date: September 25, 2025
Key Guests: Hakeem Jeffries (House Democratic Leader), Ken Delaney (MSNBC Reporter), Roy Cooper (NC Governor and Senate Candidate)

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Episode Overview

Lawrence O’Donnell analyzes the latest political turmoil under Donald Trump’s administration, focusing on the unique challenge Democrats face in negotiating with Trump—the self-styled “world’s most powerful man-baby,” as characterized by the British press. The episode features interviews with House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries, MSNBC investigative reporter Ken Delaney, and North Carolina gubernatorial-turned-senate candidate Roy Cooper. Discussions center on congressional negotiations, Trump’s abuses of power, the Epstein files, major corruption revelations, and the pivotal North Carolina Senate race.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump's Use and Abuse of Presidential Power

• Theme: Trump’s disregard for norms, laws, and the proper use of federal power is at the episode’s core.
• Lawrence tracks how Trump replaced the US Attorney of the Eastern District of Virginia with an unqualified former defense lawyer to push for an indictment of James Comey, despite career prosecutors arguing against it.
  • Quote: “Donald Trump's attempt to illegitimately use federal power, including federal prosecutorial power, literally knows no bounds.” (Lawrence O’Donnell, 02:44)
• Trump’s "deranged" speech at the UN is dissected—mocked in the British press, with O’Donnell relishing the “world’s most powerful man-baby” moniker.

2. The Epstein Files and Congressional Maneuvering

• Arizona Special Election: The addition of Adelita Grijalva to the Democratic caucus is pivotal; her presumed 218th vote could force the release of the Epstein files through a discharge petition.
• Republican Tactics: Reports on GOP efforts to block the petition, including threats to co-signers and possible procedural delays by House Speaker Mike Johnson.
• Transparency Push: Jeffries and other Democrats demand clarity and release of the files, criticizing Republican stonewalling.

3. The Impossibility of Negotiating with Trump

• Lawrence frames the underlying dilemma:
  • Quote: “How do you negotiate with someone who has no sense of responsibility about anything? ... How do you negotiate with the world's most powerful man-baby?” (Lawrence O'Donnell, 09:19)
• Interview with Hakeem Jeffries:
  • Jeffries says Democrats are “ready, willing, able” to negotiate to prevent a Republican-caused shutdown, but will not capitulate to drastic health care cuts. He accuses the GOP of gutting Medicaid, threatening millions, and eliminating public health resources.
  • Quote: "[Republicans] refused to extend the tax credits for the Affordable Care Act, which is going to result in at least 20 million Americans experiencing incredibly skyrocketing premiums." (Hakeem Jeffries, 13:36)
• Negotiating Points: "Cancel the cuts, lower the costs, save health care." (Jeffries, 18:49)

4. Corruption Exposés: Tom Homan and Historical Parallels

• Ken Delaney’s Reporting: Revelations that Trump’s former border czar, Tom Homan, accepted $50,000 in cash from undercover FBI agents—an act captured on video, reminiscent of the infamous ABSCAM operation.
  • Delaney underscores the need for transparency and release of these files.
  • Quote: “Even if it was legitimate, if you’re a cop, you know, you don’t take money in cash in a bag.” (Ken Delaney, 40:18)
• Historical Context: O’Donnell cross-references with ABSCAM’s notorious videotapes, emphasizing the cyclical nature of political corruption.
• Homan’s Non-Denial: Despite public reports and direct media questioning, Homan has not denied accepting the cash.

5. 2025 Senate Races: North Carolina as a Battleground

• Roy Cooper Interview:
  • Cooper critiques Trump’s FEMA pick Michael Whatley for failure in hurricane recovery—a microcosm for administrative dysfunction and policy failures.
  • Cooper connects GOP policies to rising costs of living and health care, pinpointing the impact of Trump tariffs and looming Medicaid cuts.
  • Quote: “People across America recognize that costs are going up. … Michael Whatley is supporting policies … that take their health care away, that put tariffs on, that are going to end up increasing the cost to everyday people.” (Roy Cooper, 46:17)
  • Cooper positions himself as a unifier with a bipartisan record and warns of unprecedented money pouring into the Senate race.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump as “world’s most powerful man-baby”:
  • “Deranged was the word chosen by the British newspaper the Daily Mirror, which also called Donald Trump the world's most powerful man baby.” (Lawrence O’Donnell, 05:19)
• Jeffries on GOP healthcare cuts:
  • “They knew this was going to happen. We warned them ... and they could care less. And people are going to die as a result.” (Hakeem Jeffries, 19:17)
• On Corruption and Transparency:
  • “People need to be reminded that is what corruption looks and sounds like. Raw political corruption.” (Ken Delaney, 39:43)
• Cooper on the stakes in North Carolina:
  • “We’ve come to North Carolina with a simple message for all the people of this region … and I’d like to put Michael [Whatley] in charge of making sure everything goes well.” (Roy Cooper, 45:14)
• Jeffries’ negotiation motto:
  • “Cancel the cuts, lower the costs, save health care.” (Hakeem Jeffries, 18:49)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:13] Trump abuses federal prosecutorial power – O’Donnell outlines the replacement of the U.S. Attorney and the orchestration to indict Comey.
• [04:45] The “Epstein files” and discharge petition – How a special Arizona election could shift transparency efforts.
• [09:19] Negotiating with Trump as “man-baby” – O’Donnell conceptualizes the challenge facing Democrats.
• [12:47] Hakeem Jeffries Interview – Jeffries details negotiation strategy, health care battle lines, and the Epstein file vote.
• [28:17] Ken Delaney’s reporting on James Comey indictment effort – Behind-the-scenes machinations at the DOJ.
• [35:15] Corruption in focus – The Homan files and ABSCAM history – O’Donnell and Delaney on public corruption, parallels, and transparency.
• [45:14] Roy Cooper on the North Carolina Senate race and Trump’s impact – Why the Senate race matters and what’s at stake for health care.

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Conclusion

This episode frames the Trump era as one of unprecedented abuse of power, chaos, and disbelief, raising thorny questions about how political opposition can function against tactics that “know no bounds.” O’Donnell, Jeffries, and Cooper reinforce the stakes: transparency, the integrity of health care policy, and the fight against both political corruption and misinformation. The hour is punctuated by sharp wit, biting frustration, and calls for accountability—leaving listeners with a sobering but urgent call to action for 2025 and beyond.

Transcript

[Laci Mosley]

What's poppin listeners? I'm Lacey Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess. The show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em? What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented cause representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Br and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Laci Mosley]

Hey, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Hey, Jen. That is, I guess, the least of Donald Trump's abuses of power. Violating that perfectly good permit that they had until Sunday. The park police cannot even bother to come up with the excuse. They can't look at that permit and even invent a reason that that permit.

[Ken Delaney]

Was somehow violated in the rank order. To your point, Lawrence, given we may.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Be looking at an indictment of one.

[Ken Delaney]

Of his top political enemies in the.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Next day or so. Yeah, it's low ranking but still important for people to know about. We have Democratic Leader of the House of Representatives Hakeem Jeffries as our first guest tonight. So we have to get right to it.

[Ken Delaney]

Jen, go to it. Have a good show.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you, Jim. Thank you. Well, the breaking news of the night reported by MSNBC's Kendelian, who will join our coverage this hour, is that federal prosecutors have written a memo arguing against trying to charge former FBI Director James Comey with crimes. Donald Trump has publicly demanded that James Comey be charged with lying to Congress, which is only possible in the next six days before the statute of limitations would run out and make it impossible to charge James Comey on that. This week, Donald Trump forced out the US Attorney who he personally installed in the Eastern District of Virginia. After that, U.S. attorney refused to try to bring charges against James Comey. Donald Trump replaced that U.S. attorney with a woman who has never tried a case of any kind in federal court and has never been a prosecutor, but did serve as one of the lowest ranking members of Donald Trump's criminal defense team. Donald Trump's attempt to illegitimately use federal power, including federal prosecutorial power, literally knows no bounds in either direction. There's no rule too small for Donald Trump to break and no rule too big for Donald Trump to break. And as you just heard today, Donald Trump had a statue of him and his pal Jeffrey Epstein removed from the National Mall, where the statue had a permit to appear this week until Sunday at 8pm the National Park Service removed the statue this morning, as they said, due to it not being in compliance with the permit. But the National Park Service refuses to say how the statue was not in compliance. It's a 12 foot tall statue, as you just saw, bronze painted statue of Donald Trump. And the man who said he was Donald Trump's closest friend for 10 years, the sex trafficker and raper of children, Jeffrey Epstein, who Donald Trump said was a terrific guy. The two men are holding hands in the statue and smiling at each other. That statue made Donald Trump the first president in history to have a statue of himself placed in Washington during his presidency. The National Park Service possibly violating its own permit rules to take down the statue is the least, as we said, of Donald Trump's abuses of presidential power. Last night in a special election, voters in Arizona gave our first guest tonight one more member of the Democratic team in the House of Representatives. House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries will be joined on the House floor by Democrat Adelita Grialva, who won a special election for the House seat held by her father, Congressman Raul Griava, until his death in March of this year. That means one more signature for the discharge petition that can force a vote in the House of Representatives to release the Epstein files. Semafor reports that Republican Congressman Thomas Massie is, quote, declaring victory on his move to force a vote on releasing the Jeffrey Epstein files after the election to fill a vacant Arizona House seat. And he says House Speaker Mike Johnson and some of the powers that be in D.C. are in favor of full panic right now about it. They came back and tried to get the four of us to take our names off the petition, Massie told Semaphore after an event in his Northern Kentucky district. They asked some of my colleagues who are co signers and they actually threatened them politically, not physically. Massie said if Johnson uses parliamentary tactics to evade a vote that there's enough notoriety on this issue that people will know that he's sweeping this under the rug. He also said if there is language included in a bill to sideline the petition, those who vote for that bill are part of the COVID up. And the reviews are in for Donald Trump's deranged speech to the United nations yesterday. Deranged was the word chosen by the British newspaper the Daily Mirror, which also called Donald Trump the world's most powerful man baby. On the front page, the sub headline says Trump rants to the UN about climate migrants, Gaza, Sadiq's Sharia, London escalators, marble floors and teleprompters. The world's most powerful man baby called for an investigation of why the escalator at the United nations stopped while Donald Trump was on it. The UN complied and found that the Trump staffer assigned to record video of Donald Trump's escalator ride probably stopped the escalator by mistake as he walked backwards at the top of the escalator. The United nations issued a statement about the investigation saying a subsequent investigation, including a readout of the machine's central processing unit, indicated that the escalator had stopped and after a built in safety mechanism on the comb step was triggered at the top of the escalator. The safety mechanism is designed to prevent people or objects accidentally being caught and stuck in or pulled into the gearing. The videographer may have inadvertently triggered the safety function and the safety function described above. The children at Fox rallied around the world's most powerful man baby and decided before the UN investigation that the escalator problem and a malfunctioning teleprompter were sabotage. Yeah, they sabotaged them. Yeah. And they could have hurt the first lady. Yeah. Trump would have fallen and would have gotten back up, but, you know, they would have blamed it on his rhetoric. And then they sabotaged the teleprompter. Yeah, I mean, this is an insurrection.

[Roy Cooper]

And what we need to do is.

[Ken Delaney]

Either leave the UN or we need.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

To bomb is in New York.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Though.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

There were no threats from Donald Trump or his administration against the stupidest person at Fox saying we need to bomb the United Nations. Ruben Murdoch, the billionaire owner operator of the Fox propaganda channel, had absolutely no problem with one of the people he pays to lie for Donald Trump advocating bombing the United Nations. Presumably their defense is. It was a joke. That is not a defense that Donald Trump and his thuggish administration accepted. In the case of Jimmy Kimmel, who came back on television last night after Donald Trump tried to get him banned for telling a joke. All Donald Trump succeeded in doing is getting Jimmy Kimmel the largest TV audience possible. Last night, Rupert Murdoch's refusal in any way to restrict his propagandists who suggest bombing buildings in America is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that there are no standards of any kind for anyone working at the Fox propaganda network. And there never will be. But they will happily continue to try to ban other people from television on other networks. And speaking of deranged, Donald Trump's reason in writing for canceling a meeting with our first guest tonight is that Democrats want transgender operations for everybody. Those are Donald Trump's actual words in explaining why he canceled a meeting about the federal budget with the Senate Democratic leader, Chuck Schumer. And our first guest tonight, the Democratic leader of the House of Representatives, Hakeem Jeffries. Donald Trump has also said in writing the Democrats want to leave dead people on Medicaid and Social Security rolls. That's his other reason for not meeting with Hakeem Jeffries. Donald Trump also said the Democrats want crime. Now, no politician in American history has ever accused the other party of being in favor of crime. Many Republicans have claimed that they are tougher on crime. But think of how deranged you have to be to say that Democrats want crime. Does that mean Democrats don't lock their cars? Does that mean Democrats don't lock their homes? Donald Trump says so many deranged things like that in a day that it's impossible to keep up with them. Negotiating the financing of the federal government in bipartisan negotiations is something that every president in, in our lifetimes has done repeatedly. Prior to Donald Trump, everyone involved in such negotiations has always taken that role very seriously. Everyone involved shared some sense of responsibility to keep the government funded. But how do you negotiate with someone who has no sense of responsibility about anything? How do you negotiate with someone who has already violated the budget laws that you've already passed in Congress? Congress? How do you negotiate with someone who's deranged? How do you negotiate with the world's most powerful man, baby? Now, we can all sit back and think it's impossible, impossible to negotiate with the man, baby. And we are probably right. But there are some people who have taken an oath of office that prevents them from fully indulging the feelings that all of us might have tonight about the utter pointlessness of trying to negotiate with with the world's most powerful man, baby. Our first guest tonight has taken an oath that requires him to do exactly that requires him to try to do what we all have a right to think might be impossible, requires him to try to negotiate with the world's most powerful man, baby. Leading off our coverage tonight is House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries. Thank you very much for joining us tonight, Mr. Leader.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Great to be with you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

How do you do it? We're all out here wondering how can you possibly negotiate with Donald Trump, who some newspapers are now calling deranged in headlines.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Well, here's the thing. We've made clear that we're ready, we're willing, we're able to sit down with anyone at any time, any place, including the president, to have a discussion about avoiding a painful and catastrophic Republican caused government shutdown. But at the same period of time, we've also been very clear we do not support this partisan Republican spending bill because it continues to gut the health care of the American people. We want no part of that. We've seen a massive attack on the health care of everyday Americans. Largest cut to Medicaid in American history. We've seen hospitals and nursing homes and community based health clinics close all across America because of the one big ugly bill. They refused to extend the tax credits for the Affordable Care act, which is going to result in at least 20 million Americans experiencing incredibly skyrocketing premiums, co pays and deductibles. There's actually a $536 billion cut to Medicare that may occur because of what Republicans have done in the one big ugly bill if Congress doesn't act over the next few months. And we know, Lawrence, that they've also shut down medical research and in large measure vaccine availability in the United States of America. This is like immoral stuff that Republicans have done. And so we're going to try to find a bipartisan resolution here. But there's a clear line in the sand and that we've drawn around the health care of the American people.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Just a diversion from the budget issue for a moment. Do you now see in the House of Representatives enough votes on the discharge petition to get the Epstein files?

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Yes. When Adelita Grijalva, who won yesterday, is sworn into Congress. And that needs to happen as early as next week. It should happen. In fact, we have a pro forma session of the House of Representatives on Friday. And this has happened before with Republicans being sworn in this year in the immediate aftermath of the Florida special elections during a so called pro forma session. And so the question, Lawrence, is whether Republicans are going to play games here because they know that Representative Elect Grijalva is the 218th vote to force the Trump administration to release the Epstein files, which they clearly have been hiding from the American people, apparently because they're afraid of what is in them.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So the speaker has the power to delay her swearing in?

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Yeah, it's largely at the discretion of the speaker and the majority to try to delay the swearing in of a new member until the election results were formally certified. But we know that Representative Grijalova won decisively and overwhelmingly. It was not close. And so there is no dispute as it relates to her joining the House of Representatives and following in her father's footsteps. She's going to be a tremendous progressive advocate for issues like lowering the high cost of living and fixing our broken health care system, while at the same time fighting for transparency in connection with the Epstein files. So we hope and expect that Republicans will do the right thing. And if they don't, we're gonna make clear to the American people why they are playing games as it relates to the swearing in of Rep Elect Grijalva.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee are now demanding the release of the Homan files, what may include an FBI undercover video recording of FBI undercover agents handing Donald Trump's border cz Tom Homan last year $50,000 in cash. Might that have to also get to a discharge petition?

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Well, we're going to use every means available to us. And led by Jamie Raskin, who's doing a great job leading the House Judiciary Committee on the Democratic side, and certainly Robert Garcia and members like Summer Lee, Ayanna Pressley, and others on the Oversight Committee, who pressed hard to force Republicans to actually press the Trump administration through the execution of subpoenas to get the birthday note, for instance, or birthday book for Epstein, which had some new information in it. We're going to continue to keep our foot on the gas pedal. We believe that the American people just simply deserve the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the whole truth with respect to all of the things. And we can do that. We continue to press our case as it relates to transparency, while at the same time also making clear that we're in this fight to stop this government shutdown and to protect the health care of the American people for a simple reason. We just need Republicans to understand they should cancel the cuts, lower the cost and save health care, because the unprecedented assault that has been launched on the health care of the American people is unconscionable and un American. And Democrats are standing up to push back and do something about it.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So you just said Cancel the cuts, lower the costs, and save health care. Are those your three negotiating points with Donald Trump?

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Yeah. Our view has been we will not continue to participate in an effort to gut the health care of the American people. That's why we oppose the one big ugly bill. Every single Democrat in the House partnering with Leader Schumer and every single Democrat in the Senate pushed back against their effort to enact the largest cut to Medicaid in American history, which is extraordinary. I mean, they're setting in motion hospitals and nursing homes and community based health clinics closing all across the country, including in rural America. And they knew this was going to happen. We warned them that this was going to happen and they could care less. And people are going to die as a result of what Republicans have done in terms of this assault on the health care in rural America, urban America, small town America, the heartland of America, black and brown communities all across America. And so we're saying that we've got the cuts that have to be dealt with. We have the need to lower health care costs and the fact that premiums, copays, and deductibles are about to explode for millions of Americans all across the country, in part related to their refusal to extend the tax credits for the Affordable Care Act. And overall, it's been such a unprecedented attack on the health care of everyday Americans that saving health care is what we are trying to do for the American people.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Donald Trump says in his statement about why he's refusing to meet with you that you want to keep dead people on the Social Security rolls, that you want to keep dead people on the Medicaid rolls, and. And that you want to cut funding for rural hospitals. Are any of those things true? I don't hear those things. When you listed your demands.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Not a single one of those things are true. And just to make it simple for Donald Trump, it's eight. Cancel the cuts, lower the costs, save health care, and let's have this debate before the American people. Donald Trump agreed to meet in the White House and then backed away from it in an unhinged rant and is running scared. And this is on top of the fact that the House Republicans canceled votes that were scheduled to take place next Monday and Tuesday in advance of government funding running out. And John Thune has basically said, I've got nothing to talk to Democrats about. You. Really? You don't. Let's start with the health care of the American people and the fact that Republicans are marching us toward a painful government shutdown and we are ready to have that conversation anytime, any place. It's the responsible thing to do. Like the notion that Republicans expect Democrats just to fall in line and vote for their partisan spending bill that hurts the American people without actually engaging in a discussion and a negotiation to arrive at a bipartisan spending bill that actually meets the needs of everyday Americans in terms of their health, public safety and economic well being. The notion that we're just supposed to fall in line and bend the knee, they're sadly confused about who we are. That's what Republicans have been doing, serving as a reckless rubber stamp for Donald Trump's extreme agenda. We want no part of that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries, thank you very much for starting off our conversations tonight.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. And coming up, MSNBC's Kandelanean has delivered us the breaking news of the night, that federal prosecutors have written a memo arguing against trying to bring criminal charges against former FBI Director James Comey. Khan Delaney joins us next. MSNBC's breaking news of the night is that federal prosecutors have written and submitted a memo explaining why charges should not be brought against former FBI Director James Comey. That news comes a day after a day of intense speculation that Donald Trump's new acting U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia, adjacent to Washington, D.C. will seek an indictment of James Comey, possibly for lying to Congress before Tuesday of next week because the five year statute of limitations on that charge will expire on Tuesday. Joining us now is the reporter who delivered this breaking news to msnbc, Ken Delaney, and MSNBC justice and intelligence correspondent Ken. This is a stunning development in what we know is a momentum created by Donald Trump to indict James Comey.

[Ken Delaney]

Yeah, that's right, Lawrence. Good evening. So before we reported on the memo, we quoted three people familiar with the matter telling us that the new Prosecutor, the new U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia, was racing to push an indictment of James Comey for lying to Congress and potentially other charges before the statute of limitations lapses for that charge on Tuesday, because we're talking about testimony that he gave to the Senate five years ago almost to the day, and it had to do with the FBI's Trump Russia investigation and whether he authorized a leak of a particular thing that his deputy, Andrew McCabe, talked to the Wall Street Journal about. And we had already said that career prosecutors in the office didn't think that there was a prosecutable case. In fact, the previous U.S. attorney who was fired or who resigned under pressure by Donald Trump, essentially forced out of office, he didn't think there was a case either, and he was Donald Trump's selection to lead that office as the U.S. attorney. So now Donald Trump has appointed his former defense lawyer, who's never prosecuted the case, Lindsey Halligan, and she's pushing forward. But we learned later this evening that prosecutors in the office had written her essentially, a declination memo, a memo saying that she shouldn't bring these charges because not only can't they win, can't they convince a jury to convict James Comey beyond a reasonable doubt? They don't even believe they have probable cause, a much lower standard to believe that a crime was committed. And so they don't think that ethically they should pursue this case. But we're being told that there's discussions about moving forward, and they may, in fact, go to the grand jury as soon as tomorrow. There's been a grand jury sitting and hearing testimony in this matter, and try to convince these grand jurors to indict James Comey, charge him with felonies on these charges of potentially lying to Congress, which, of course, he denies.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Lawrence? Ken, this could be one of those instances. If the new acting U.S. attorney has to go into that grand jury hearing herself, someone they've never seen before, and try to convince them to do this, this might be one of those rare instances where the grand jury refuses to indict.

[Ken Delaney]

I agree with you, Lawrence. And we've seen a surprisingly high number of those instances in Los Angeles and in Washington, D.C. in criminal cases around the country where grand jurors are just simply rejecting the requests of Trump prosecutors. And of course, we've all heard the old saw that a prosecutor can convince a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. But that hasn't been the case in some of these cases. And this one could be a similar situation, especially if prosecutors are saying there isn't even probable cause. I mean, look, perjury cases, lying cases, are really difficult to prove because you have to prove intent. They have to prove that James Comey knew that what he was saying was false under oath to Congress, not just that he had a different account or a different memory than his deputy, Andrew McCabe, about some particular thing. And so, yeah, I mean, that's the first backstop, is the grand jury could decline to indict. But, you know, grand jury, only the prosecutor presents evidence to a grand jury. There's no defense. And so it's conceivable that somehow they could get over that hurdle. And then the next hurdle, of course, would be an independent federal judge with a lifetime appointment who would look at this and would look at the truth social message that Donald Trump posted urging his Attorney General to prosecute James Comey and will probably first have to decide whether there is an issue of malicious or vindictive prosecution.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Lawrence Please stay with us, Ken, as we go into this commercial break here because another day has gone by with Tom Holman not disputing one word of your reporting, Ken, about him accepting $50,000 from FBI undercover agents in a payoff that was recorded on video. And we're going to talk about that, Ken, right after this commercial break.

[Laci Mosley]

What's poppin listeners? I'm Lacey Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake eras? We got em. What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented. Cause representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nic Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water. Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it, even in cold butter. Yep. Chocolate ice cream, sure thing. Barbecue sauce. Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new coldzyme technology. Just remember, if it's gotta be clean, it's gotta be Tide.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Another day of no denial from Tom Homan, Donald Trump's so called border Czar. After MSNBC broke the news over the weekend that undercover FBI agents handed Tom Homan $50,000 in cash in a paper bag last year and that undercover operation was secretly recorded on video. Tom Homan has not denied one word of MSNBC's reporting on this story by MSNBC's Kendallanian and MSNBC's Carol Lennick. Democrats in the House and Senate Judiciary Committees have demanded the release of the Homan files. That would include that FBI video recording of Tom Homan accepting $50,000 in cash. Tom. Tom Homan has not denied accepting $50,000 in cash from FBI undercover agents. The White House press secretary admitted on Monday that Tom Homan was in a meeting with undercover FBI agents, but also said, quote, Mr. Homan never took the $50,000. Later, in an interview on Fox, Tom Homan was not asked and did not say whether he took the $50,000. We know what undercover FBI videos look like because the FBI undercover investigation codenamed Abscam in 1979 captured six members of the House Representatives and one senator on video taking cash from undercover FBI agents posing as Arab businessmen.

[Narrator/Reporter]

This is one of the FBI videotapes recorded in August 1979. It shows FBI agent Anthony Amoroso stuffing an envelope with $50,000. Moments later, Amoroso met with Congressman Michael Myers of Pennsylvania, who sat on the left side of the couch. Myers came in with Mayor Angelo Araketti of Camden, New Jersey, who sat next to Myers on the couch. FBI informant Melvin Weinberg sat in the chair on the right. The numbers across the bottom of the screen are FBI identification numbers. NBC News has edited this tape. Agent Amoroso, posing as a representative of a phony Arab sheikh, asked Myers if he would use his influence to help the Arab get into the United States.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

What you're telling me is that you've got the Cloudmen to introduce legislation. To introduce legislation. I work with two different people right now, okay? Two different Arab groups, and they're highly interested in this because of, you know, listen, they got tons of money. They want to ensure that wherever they go, they're going to make it right. If it looks like a real promising thing there, we've got the promise of like eight or nine more of these people wanting to get involved in this thing, okay? And, you know, you're talking about a lot of money. Okay, Let me just say this to you. You're going about it the right way. I'm going to tell you something real simple and short. You know, money talks in this business, and it works the same way down in Washington.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Later in the tape, the FBI agent handed Meers an envelope which contained $50,000.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And as long as I got your guarantee that. My guarantee? Yeah. No problems at all. Guarantee. I don't need your guarantee. Let's go, buddy. Yeah, I know. On some court Stuff that we can. Four of us can meet back in Philly, spend it well. Pleasure. The FBI undercover video of Tom Homan taking a bag of cash would look like an updated version of that Abscam video. And it would look like a movie scene. In 2013, writer director David O. Russell's film American Hustle, starring Bradley Cooper, Jeremy Renner, and Christian Bale, delivered this fictionalized version of Abscam that shows how undercover FBI agents record cash payoffs.

[Ken Delaney]

I'm Federal Agent Richard Damaso. I place $75,000 into this briefcase for Representative John O' Connell of the Ninth District.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Representative O' Connell was contacted by Carmine.

[Ken Delaney]

Polito to ask if he could obtain rapid citizenship through an act of Congress for one Sheikh Abdullah, investor. How you doing? Nice to meet you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Nice to meet you. I'm excited to be here. Oh, John, please. This brings the state back. How long we know each other? You know what this is going to do for us? This is huge for the state of New Jersey. Stabilizes our economy. Hotels, restaurants, com. I see it. It's waiting to happen. This thing is waiting to happen. But the goddamn bankers, they're keeping their money on the sidelines.

[Roy Cooper]

How are we supposed to get anything done?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Bankers only put money in the game when they can reap insane profit.

[Ken Delaney]

The only problem is this citizenship situation.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We gotta expedite as soon as possible. Well, I'll tell you, you came to the right place, you know?

[Ken Delaney]

Yeah.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We can make it happen. Oh, hey. This is going to happen. You understand? This is real. On my family, all my kids, all.

[Roy Cooper]

My life, on my work.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I don't know that, Garman. They're a good man. I'm Federal Agent Richard Damaso.

[Ken Delaney]

I place $75,000 in this briefcase for.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

One Representative Jerry Ossonders of the Third District.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

I don't want to do anything illegal.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Please, Jerry, use it as a campaign donation. Whatever you want to do. Thank you. All right. Means a lot. So with us, Ken Delaney. And, Ken, that could be a version of the Tom Homan video. When and if we get to see it.

[Ken Delaney]

Lawrence, you've done a real public service here, because people need to be reminded that is what corruption looks and sounds like. Raw political corruption. Now, we don't know, obviously, what's on the Homan recording, what it sounded like, but we do know that he took $50,000 in cash. @ least that's what our sources are telling us. And he is not denying it. And, you know, he is a longtime career law enforcement officer. He was a police officer. He became a border patrol Officer and I was talking to some law enforcement officials this week about this, and they said, look, even if it was legitimate, if you're a cop, you know, you don't take money in cash in a bag. You just don't do that. It's just, it doesn't look good. That raises too many questions. And so that's where this starts. And the public is owed, I think, an explanation. And the easiest way to explain it would be for the Justice Department to release all the records. This is a closed investigation. They've said it's closed. So why not release any recordings they have and all the case files that show what happened here? Because one of the open questions we don't know the answer to is what happened to the money? It was FBI undercover money. It was taxpayer money that was handed to Mr. Homan. Did he give it back? If he didn't, did he pay taxes on it? Did it end up in his pockets? We have no idea. All we know is that he insists he did nothing illegal and that the Justice Department closed the case after the Trump administration took office, even though career public integrity prosecutors believe that they should continue the investigation and watch to see whether Mr. Homan fulfilled his promise to, to allegedly help this company win contracts, warrants.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And presumably, had it been a continued investigation, the Homan file would now include a tax return showing what happened on the tax return in relation to the $50,000. Kendallane an invaluable reporting. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Ken Delaney]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up, J.D. vance went to North Carolina today to try to prevent our next guest from becoming the next senator from North Carolina. Former North Carolina governor, Democrat Roy Cooper is now the front runner in the Senate race in North Carolina, and he will join us next.

[Laci Mosley]

What's poppin, listeners? I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em. What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know, they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o', Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Ken Delaney]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Ken Delaney]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

VGW Group Void where Prohibited by law CT and C's 21 plus Sponsored by Chumba Casino Democrats need to flip four Senate seats currently held by Republicans to win the Senate majority next year. And tonight it looks like our next guest could do that for the Democrats in North Carolina, where Republican Senator Tom Tillis has decided not to run for reelection. Republicans are so worried about North Carolina that today Vice President James David Vance went to North Carolina to raise money for the Republican Senate candidate, Michael Whatley, who is the current chair of the Republican national committee. Polling shows 54% of North Carolina residents disapprove of Donald Trump. And a poll last week shows North Carolina's former governor, Democrat Roy Cooper, as the four point frontrunner in the Senate campaign. Donald Trump tried to help his chosen Republican candidate for Senate, Michael Whatley, by telling the people of North Carolina that Whatley is in charge of FEMA's response to Hurricane Helene. The Democratic frontrunner in the Senate race, former Governor Roy Cooper, released this ad. We've come to North Carolina with a simple message for all the people of this region who were hit so hard by Hurricane Helene, and I'd like to put Michael in charge of making sure everything goes well. Growing frustration in western North Carolina as recovery efforts continue Nearly a year after Hurricane Helene, residents in the Black Mountain area are speaking out against President Trump's appointed Helene recovery czar Michael Whatley. Many of the region's municipalities wonder when reimbursement will come, their citizens wondering if they've been forgotten for months.

[Laci Mosley]

Local residents say they haven't seen Whatley doing anything. They say Watley has been absent.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So you think you can handle it? Michael I don't know. I'm not sure. Michael Joining us now is the former governor of North Carolina, Roy Cooper, he's now Democratic candidate for United States Senate there. Governor Cooper, it has been a year, I think on Saturday. Exactly. It'll be exactly one year since Hurricane Elaine hit North Carolina. Why are people still waiting for help from Donald Trump and FEMALE.

[Roy Cooper]

Well, western North Carolina got hit very hard from Hurricane Helene. And you would think that it would be easy for FEMA and the federal government simply to write the checks. It's hard to recover and rebuild roads and bridges and homes. But writing the check should be simple. The president put Michael Whatley in charge. He's been a complete failure. Many people are calling for his resignation and replacement. And look, my opponent is a DC Insider, big oil lobbyist out of touch with the people of North Carolina. In fact, he said recently that grocery prices are going down. People in North Carolina and people across America recognize that costs are going up. Groceries, utilities, rent, childcare. And they know that Michael Whatley is supporting policies in Washington that take their health care away, that put tariffs on, that are going to end up increasing the cost to everyday people and small businesses. And they've had enough of it. I've had enough of it. It's why I stepped up to run for the United States Senate. And Lawrence, they want to do anything to keep this seat from being flipped. That's why they're going to send people in lots of money. Politico said this may be the first billion dollar race in U.S. senate history, which is absolutely absurd. But we know we fight back with grassroots support and would love for people to go to rorycooper.com and help us out and show them that we have everyday people across this country making sure that we can flip this seat. And I believe we can.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Well, that kind of infusion of money into a Senate race is a statement about just how much is at stake in the power balance in the United States Senate. As you go forward in the campaign, are you finding, as you talk about the cost of living inflation, that North Carolina voters do understand that they are paying the Trump tariffs because they've been lied to for many, many years by Donald Trump who tells them that China pays the tariffs that they are actually paying?

[Roy Cooper]

I think more and more of them are recognizing it because they are seeing their cost rise. It's happening at the kitchen table and not only the tariffs, but what they're doing to health care. We know that Medicaid is in danger. I worked with a Republican legislature in a bipartisan way to get Medicaid expanded in North Carolina, getting 675,000 people, health insurance. But what's about to happen to people on Medicaid and people on the Affordable Care Act? Premiums are going to go through the roof. A lot of people, hundreds of thousands of people are going to lose Medicaid. And even if you aren't on Medicaid or Medicare or don't get your insurance under the Affordable Care act, this is going to cost every American. Because when uninsured people get treated by health care providers, the cost is spread everywhere. So add additional health care costs to these families. That's just not right. It's why I'm running for the Senate. I believe that Washington is broken. We're seeing evidence of that right now. I've had experience working to try to bring consensus. I think people want that right now. They also want people who will stand up to those who are doing wrong. I can do that as well. But I'm going to need everybody's help to get this done. And I'm excited. I loved serving my, my state as governor and I didn't really expect to do this, but two or three things happening every single day in Washington that you and I could talk about for hours each, each one of them the level of horror being an unprecedented, at an unprecedented pace. We know that something has to be done. And what has to be done is we have to win races. We have to win the U.S. senate, we have to win the U.S. house. And it starts with North Carolina and making sure that we can flip this seat.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Former Governor and current U.S. senate candidate Roy Cooper, who knows how to win elections in North Carolina, now the front runner in the Senate race. Thank you very much for joining us tonight and please join us when you can during this campaign.

[Roy Cooper]

Thanks, Lars. Be glad to come back.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. We'll be right back. North Carolina's Democratic Senate candidate, now the front runner in the race. Roy Cooper gets tonight's last word.

[Laci Mosley]

What's poppin listeners? I'm Lacey Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess. The show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em. What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented cause representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.