Lawrence: In newly public emails Epstein says 'of course' Trump 'knew about the girls'

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell

Episode: "In newly public emails Epstein says 'of course' Trump 'knew about the girls'"
Air Date: November 13, 2025
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell, MSNBC

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Overview

This gripping episode centers on the explosive release of Jeffrey Epstein’s emails, which directly reference Donald Trump’s knowledge of Epstein’s criminal activities. Lawrence O’Donnell leverages his political experience and in-depth reporting to walk listeners through the significance of the emails, Congress’s sudden drive toward transparency, and what the revelations may mean for Trump’s presidency and American politics. Featuring analysis and insights from Congressman Ro Khanna, legal expert Andrew Weissmann, and investigative journalist Barry Levine, the episode is marked by a tone of urgency, incredulity, and indignation at previous failures by federal authorities to follow up on leads.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Role of The Last Word in Releasing the Emails

[03:33]

• O’Donnell recounts how the idea for Congress to subpoena Epstein’s estate originated from attorney Brad Edwards on this very program.
• Ro Khanna, having appeared the same night, promised on-air to push for the subpoena, resulting in the release of crucial emails.
• O’Donnell gives credit to his booking producer Amy Schuster and the survivors’ lawyers, noting the unique impact of this live exchange on real-world congressional action:

  “The only reason these emails are out is Lawrence had the survivor's lawyers on who gave me the tip to subpoena the estate.” (O’Donnell quoting Ro Khanna’s tweet, [01:33])

The Emails: What Epstein Said About Trump

[12:45]

• Key emails show Epstein writing that Trump “knew about the girls” and spent hours at Epstein’s house with a victim.

• O’Donnell notes a 2011 email where Epstein refers to Trump as “the dog that hasn’t barked,” referencing Trump’s silence and apparent protection from exposure.

• Epstein’s correspondence with Maxwell suggests both knew Trump had exposure to victims:

  Jeffrey Epstein: “Of course he knew about the girls.” ([16:29]) Ghislaine Maxwell: “I have been thinking about that.” ([17:44])

• An email to Michael Wolff (2019) further states:

  “Trump…knew about the girls as he asked Ghislaine to stop.” ([44:32])

Congressional Maneuvering and GOP Fracture

[08:26]

• O’Donnell describes the historical oddity of Democrats—in a GOP-controlled House—successfully pushing a subpoena targeting a sitting Republican president.
• Trump makes frantic attempts to halt the release, including pressuring Rep. Lauren Boebert to withdraw her support in a Situation Room meeting—she refuses, defying the White House and doubling down with a tweet:

  Lauren Boebert: “Together, we remain committed to ensuring transparency for the American people.” ([18:53])

• Trump responds by publicly attacking Republicans supporting the release, calling them “very bad or stupid.”

[18:38]

• Politico reports “dozens of Republicans” may vote to release the Epstein files, risking a major bipartisan defeat for Trump.

Legal & Investigative Perspectives

Congressman Ro Khanna

[19:58]

• Emphasizes that none of these developments would’ve happened without The Last Word’s coverage and guest lineup.

• Predicts a “huge deal” as growing numbers of Republicans break with Trump—likens it to the collapse of Nixon’s support:

  “You’re going to have a situation when Massie and my bill comes to the floor next week…you’re going to see 50, 60, maybe even more Republicans vote against him. That is a huge deal.” ([21:14])

• Calls for renewed investigation, especially focusing on what Maxwell knows and how many around Epstein (including Trump) passively enabled abuse:

  “Who does that if, you know, someone is raping junior high girls to just sit there and still be friends with them?” ([22:48])

Andrew Weissmann (Legal Analyst)

[29:56]

• Stresses the emails’ corroborative value, upending Trump’s denials:

  “What we have seen tonight and the documents are devastating in terms of the story that we had been told.” ([29:56])

• Criticizes the DOJ’s soft handling of Maxwell and the lack of probing into Trump’s connections—labels this as potentially corrupt and politically motivated.
• Advocates for a special counsel to ensure an independent investigation, citing DOJ and White House collaboration to suppress the Epstein files.
• Highlights Trump’s silence at a public bill signing as telling:

  “He walked away from them without taking a single question, knowing every single question would have been about Jeffrey Epstein’s emails…” ([39:33])

Barry Levine (Epstein Biographer)

[42:49]

• Contextualizes the 2011 email: written after Virginia Giuffre publicly named Prince Andrew as an abuser—Epstein wonders why Trump’s name hasn’t surfaced, noting Trump spent “hours” with the same victim.
• Explains the Mar-a-Lago angle: Maxwell recruited girls there, Trump supposedly intervened to stop further recruitment—yet Epstein claims Trump was aware:

  “That of course, has to do with the fact that Maxwell was recruiting girls from the spa at Mar A Lago…Donald Trump was finding out about this and put a stop to Maxwell continuing to recruit girls out of his spa.” ([44:58])

• Levine affirms Epstein remained a Mar-a-Lago member after a 2008 conviction, contradicting claims he was expelled.
• Summarizes:

  “...knowing for a fact from Jeffrey Epstein that Donald Trump likely knew about his conduct, knew about the sex trafficking that was taking place.” ([45:57])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Of course he knew about the girls.”
  — Jeffrey Epstein, in an email, as reported by multiple guests ([16:29], [44:32])

• “That dog that hasn’t barked is Trump.”
  — Jeffrey Epstein, to Ghislaine Maxwell ([12:45], [42:49])

• “Who does that if, you know, someone is raping junior high girls to just sit there and still be friends with them?”
  — Rep. Ro Khanna ([22:48])

• “The attorney general, accompanied by Donald Trump’s former criminal defense lawyer, now deputy attorney general, Todd Blanche, failed in their mission to force Lauren Boebert to change her position.”
  — Lawrence O’Donnell ([27:11])

• “He walked away from them without taking a single question, knowing every single question would have been about Jeffrey Epstein’s emails…”
  — Lawrence O’Donnell, on Trump’s media silence ([39:33])

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Important Timestamps

• [03:33–08:00]: O’Donnell tells the behind-the-scenes story of the subpoena, crediting his team and show for the tip that led to the email disclosures.
• [12:45–18:00]: Analysis of the emails’ content, the “dog that hasn’t barked” phrase, and the mounting pressure on House Republicans.
• [19:58–24:43]: Rep. Ro Khanna discusses congressional actions, bipartisan momentum, and analogies to Nixon’s collapse.
• [29:56–34:38]: Andrew Weissmann’s legal analysis, critique of DOJ conduct, and call for special counsel.
• [39:33–41:35]: Discussion of Trump’s silent press event and the interpreted meaning of such strategic silence.
• [42:49–46:34]: Barry Levine contextualizes emails in the Epstein investigation, underscores the references to Trump, and explains their significance.

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Tone and Language

The episode remains serious, urgent, and deeply critical of those protecting Donald Trump from disclosure. O’Donnell’s style is passionate and precise, occasionally caustic regarding failures by law enforcement and the DOJ. Guests echo his forceful tone, at times incredulous over past inaction or evasions, underscoring the historic moment and the gravity of the revelations.

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Takeaways

• The Last Word's reporting directly triggered a congressional investigation and subpoena, leading to highly incriminating revelations about Donald Trump’s awareness of Epstein’s crimes.
• Trump, the DOJ, and loyalists are engaged in an unprecedented campaign to prevent further disclosure, met with rare defiance from some Republicans.
• The newly released emails, especially from Epstein himself, directly contradict Trump’s decades of denials regarding Epstein’s sex crimes.
• There is bipartisan movement in Congress to force the release of Epstein files—potentially a major political blow for Trump.
• Legal experts and investigators now call for independent oversight, renewed questioning (especially of Ghislaine Maxwell), and full public transparency.
• The episode marks a watershed in media-driven accountability, hinting at further shocking disclosures to come.

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For listeners who missed the episode, this recap captures the full scope of both the news and the high-stakes drama—placing today’s revelations in the larger context of American political and legal accountability.

Transcript

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[C]

Now it's time for the Last Word with Lawrence o', Donnell, which starts right now. Hey Lawrence.

[A]

Hey Jen. We have to be ready for a really, really big and crazy news day tomorrow.

[C]

No kidding.

[A]

Because Donald Trump is going to want to change the subject as only he can, using the powers of the presidency. So if you're a small country who Donald Trump has threatened, Tom, because he needs to get this subject changed away from those Jeffrey Epstein emails about him.

[C]

That is such a good warning. No one likes playing Battleship like a little boy more than that man. And that is a good warning to people out there to get a good night's sleep, I guess.

[A]

Yeah. I really think tomorrow night's going to be a bigger news night than tonight.

[C]

We'll see. I'm going to go home and get sleep now after I listen to your A block.

[A]

You better. Thanks, Jen.

[C]

Thanks Lawrence.

[A]

Thank you. If you're in a mood to thank someone, thank Amy Schuster. That is what I would have told our first guest tonight before he tweeted this at 9:56am the only reason these emails are out is Lawrence had the survivor's lawyers on who gave me the tip to subpoena the estate. Why did justice or the FBI not get and release these Carson Ro Khanna was booked on this program on July 23rd of this year. He followed that night an appearance by attorney Brad Edwards who revealed in our discussion that the way for Congress to obtain a massive trove of information about Jeffrey Epstein would be to subpoena Jeffrey Epstein's estate. Brad Edwards said that he knows the attorneys handling the Epstein estate and he is sure that they would immediately comply with such a subpoena. And he was right. Brad Edwards was booked on this program that night by Amy Schuster, whose job is to find us the best lineup of guests possible for this program. And she does it every Night without ever checking with me. I usually have no input on the guests. The words I say here are mine. What you hear from me on this program comes from me. I write the scripts, but that's just one piece of a program like this. Melissa Ryerson, for the last several years has been deciding what the shape of this program should be. She has a much better command of the news landscape than I do every day. And she suggests what we should be covering. And she's always right. And only then do I apply my thinking to what we're going to present to you tonight and eventually my writing of what we will present to you tonight. But having Brad Edwards, who is an attorney for hundreds of the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein join us on this program that night was Amy Schuster's idea. And telling us about sending a subpoena to the Epstein estate, was Brad Edwards idea announced right here on this program. I didn't think that up. I never would have thought of that. And so, yes, Congress issued the subpoena that produced these emails because Brad Edwards suggested that they do that on this program. And Congressman Ro Khanna, who was the next guest on this program that night, immediately said on television that night that he would take up that suggestion. And then he helped lead the charge for the subpoena issued by the House. A Republican controlled House, a Democratic member of the House of Representatives who gets the idea of issuing a subpoena to the Epstein estate on this program and then brings that idea into a Republican House of Representatives and prevails and manages to persuade the House of Representatives controlled by Donald Trump's loyalists to do something that has the potential to not just crush Donald Trump as a politician, but depending on what else might be revealed in the Epstein files and as a result of this subpoena, maybe Donald Trump's presidency could come to an end. Maybe Donald Trump could become the second president to resign the presidency, the second Republican president to resign the presidency. How bad could this get for Donald Trump? We have no idea. But he does. Donald Trump knows exactly how bad it can get because he knows everything about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. He knows everything that is or might be in the Epstein files or in the possession of the Epstein estate that could be damaging to him. He knows and we see the way he's behaving about this. This might be the worst of it. What we've discovered in Jeffrey Epstein's emails today might just be the worst of it. And if it is, then Donald Trump can probably survive this. But Donald Trump himself is making an all out effort to stop the release of the Epstein files. After these emails were released today, Donald Trump has made the judgment that what remains hidden in the Epstein files must never be seen by anyone. And that is why he had Congresswoman Lauren Boebert in the White House today, hoping she would be convinced to take her name off of the discharge petition which she had already signed in the House of Representatives. She did not bend to that pressure. The discharge petition has been officially filed after getting its 218th signature today when the newest member of the House of Representatives, Adelita Grialva, in her first act as a member of the House, became the most important member of the House today when she provided the 218th signature for that discharge petition, which will come to a vote possibly next week in the House of Representatives that would force the release of the Epstein files. J.D. vance is doing exactly what Gerald Ford did while the Nixon presidency was sinking and Richard Nixon was under increasing pressure over several months that led to his resignation. Gerald Ford said nothing. When things were the darkest for President Richard Nixon, Vice President Gerald Ford said nothing. And when Richard Nixon resigned the presidency, Vice President Ford said, our long national nightmare is over. Tonight. J.D. vance is silent tonight. J.D. vance is Gerald Ford. Gerald Ford said nothing about Richard Nixon as Nixon sank deeper into scandal, as Nixon on his way to impeachment, which he only avoided by resigning the presidency. Gerald Ford said nothing because Gerald Ford knew that when he eventually took over the presidency, he didn't want the stain of Nixon on him. And so J.D. vance is silent tonight. But what is J.D. vance supposed to say tonight when he reads an email written by Jeffrey Epstein during the Trump presidency in 2019, six months before Jeffrey Epstein's second arrest, saying of course he knew about the girls, meaning Donald Trump. Donald Trump has always denied any involvement in or knowledge of Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking and raping of children. And the Washington Post is reporting that one of Jeffrey Epstein's emails says Donald Trump never got a massage. Donald Trump wasn't involved, according to this email. The email written by Jeffrey Epstein says Trump knew of it and came to my house many times during that period, Epstein wrote in an email to himself on February 1, 2019. The Washington Post is reporting several months before he was arrested on trafficking charges and killed himself in jail, he never got a massage. So there's Jeffrey Epstein himself letting Donald Trump off the hook on that point. But Donald Trump's always insisted he never knew anything that Jeffrey Epstein was up to. Never knew anything possibly illegal that Jeffrey Epstein was up to. What is J.D. vance or Donald Trump or any Trump defender supposed to say tonight when they read an email from Jeffrey Epstein after the first criminal investigation of Jeffrey Epstein in Florida, which led to Jeffrey Epstein pleading guilty. And Jeffrey Epstein writes an email to his criminal co conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell in 2011 saying, quote, I want you to realize that that dog that hasn't barked is Trump. Jeffrey Epdeon says that one of the young girls in the investigation, quote, spent hours at my house with him. He has never once been mentioned, police chief, etc. I am 75% there. Donald Trump spent hours at Jeffrey Epstein's house with one of Jeffrey Epstein's victims. According to Jeffrey Epstein in a private communication with his criminal co conspirator whose response to this was, I have been thinking about that. The only way that Ghislaine Maxwell could have been thinking about that is that she knew what Jeffrey Epstein was talking about in every word of that email. That means she knew what it means that the dog that has barked is Trump. And Ghislaine Maxwell was not asked a single question about that email by Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer, who now serves as Donald Trump's deputy Attorney General. Todd Blanche, who went to Florida to do a so called interview with Ghislaine Maxwell. The Justice Department could have had that email and hundreds of other emails that we haven't seen yet that would be very specific about Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. That would have been legitimate and serious points of questioning for Ghislaine Maxwell, who's never ever answered questions to any federal prosecutor or in her federal criminal trial about any of this before Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer went down to Florida and threw softballs at her and believed her when she was clearly lying to him. The Justice Department may have had all of these emails for many years. Very likely that they did. You saw how easily the Epstein estate handed them over to Congress. The inept White House press secretary, whether intentionally or not, revealed that the interview the Trump team had with Congresswoman Boebert today to try to change her mind was held in the Situation Room. That is the room in the White House reserved for the most secret communications, including verbal communications, that can occur in government. Imagine the panic in that room this morning when they were trying to convince a Republican member of the House to change her mind and take her name off the discharge petition so that even with one more signature on the petition, by the end of the day, it would not be enough. Imagine the pressure on Congresswoman Boebert in that room. Why didn't she succumb to that pressure? Why didn't she take her name off that discharge petition? Why did she leave her name on that discharge petition and allow that discharge petition to get its final signature so that it could now be in progress toward a vote in the House of Representatives? Why did Lauren Bobert then tweet this at the same time the final signature in the discharge petition was obtained? Quote, I want to thank White House officials for meeting with me today. Together, we remain committed to ensuring transparency for the American people. Lauren Boebert did not only not remove her name from the discharge petition, she taunted the Trump White House with that tweet at 4:22pm at the same time the final signature was affixed to the discharge petition. It is impossible for a Republican member of the House of Representatives to be more defiant than than that. Is Lauren Boebert's defiance of Donald Trump, the Trump White House and the Trump Justice Department, who were all trying to suppress the Trump Epstein files, an indication of just how weak an argument the Trump team made in the secrecy of the Situation Room on behalf of Donald Trump? They could say anything to her in that room and whatever they said was so weak that this Republican congresswoman left the Trump White House and publicly tweeted her defiance. At the moment the Democrats obtained the final signature on the discharge petition today is a demonstration of Donald Trump's weakness now within his own party about his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein told the journalist Michael Wolff on tape, I was Donald's closest friend for 10 years. And Donald Trump told New York magazine and 2002, right in the middle of Jeffrey Epstein's career as a sex trafficker and raper of children, quote, I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do. And many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it. Jeffrey enjoys his social life. And Jeffrey Epstein said about Donald Trump, of course he knew about the girls, end quote. Donald Trump's newest strategy with House Republicans is to call them stupid. In a tweet today, Donald Trump said, quote, only a very bad or stupid Republican would fall into that trap. The trap being voting for the release of the Epstein file. If you do that in the House next week, when that vote is likely to occur, Donald Trump says you are a very bad or stupid Republican. Four Republicans have already signed that discharge petition, which is in effect a vote to release the Epstein files. Thomas Massie signed the discharge petition, which, according to Donald Trump, makes him a very bad or stupid Republican. Marjorie Taylor Greene signed the discharge petition, which, according to Donald Trump, makes her a very bad or stupid Republican. Nancy Mace signed the discharge petition, which, according to Donald Trump, makes him a very bad. Makes her a very bad or stupid Republican. Lauren Boebert not only signed the discharge petition, but then refused to take her name off the discharge petition after the most intense pressure the White House has ever applied to any individual member of Congress. The Trump White House has never pressured any Republican member of Congress more than they pressured Lauren Boebert today, and they failed. According to Donald Trump, that makes Lauren Boebert a very bad or stupid Republican. There is a very bad and stupid Republican at the heart of this story, and his name appears repeatedly in the Epstein files as it would, even if he never did anything wrong. Because when Jeffrey Epstein says, you're his closest friend, a federal employer investigation of Jeffrey Epstein is going to turn up facts like that. And when you say publicly in New York Magazine that you've known Jeff for 15 years and he's a terrific guy, that article itself is going to end up in the federal investigative files. In a federal investigation like that, there will be all sorts of names that will show up in the files. People who've done nothing wrong, people who are neighbors of the person being investigated, people who have nothing to fear by the release of those files. Donald Trump has obviously been living all year in fear of release of the Jeffrey Epstein files. And tonight, that fear has to be more intense than ever. The fear that makes him snap and call Republicans very bad and stupid is an informed fear. It is not an irrational fear. It's an informed fear because Donald Trump knows exactly what his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein was. We don't. Donald Trump knows exactly how much direct exposure and familiarity he had with the people Jeffrey Epstein calls the girls in his email. We don't. We don't know that, but Donald Trump does. Donald Trump knows everything about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein that might be in the Epstein file. And knowing everything that Donald Trump himself knows about his relationship to Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump had a choice. He could have said, let it all come out. I have nothing to fear because I know everything about it and I know there's nothing to fear. Or knowing everything Donald Trump knows about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. And after having been briefed about what the Epstein files say about him by his Justice Department, Donald Trump seems to have decided the Epstein files must never come out. That's the position he has chosen. And now the dog is barking at the very bad and stupid Republicans who support the release of the Epstein files after the dog barked at those Republicans and called them bad and stupid at 2:03pm today, four hours later, Politico reported senior Republicans privately believe dozens of Republicans will vote for it, possibly 100 or more, according to five people granted anonymity to speak candidly. And so the mad barking dog might be on his way to creating the biggest bipartisan landslide vote against Donald Trump the House of Representatives has ever seen. Tonight, instead of looking at the Epstein files that were created by the Justice Department's investigation into Jeffrey Epstein, we are looking at emails about Donald Trump written by Jeffrey Epstein that were in the possession of Jeffrey Epstein's estate after his death. And we have those emails tonight, thanks to a thread of luck that began 112 days ago when Amy Schuster decided that the guests on this program that night should be attorney for Epstein survivors Brad Edwards, along with Congressman Ro Khanna and Andrew Weissman. Andrew Weissman will be joining us tonight. And leading off our coverage of what we have learned today is Congressman Ro Khanna. Joining us now is Congressman Kahneman. Congressman, thank you very much for joining us tonight. And please accept my amendment to your tweet this morning about this program and how it all started off here. But this has really been a drama for viewers of this program to watch from the night you stood here on this program and said you were going to act on what you had just learned about the possibility of issuing a subpoena to the Epstein estate. And here we are tonight.

[D]

Lawrence, I said that because sometimes in all of the news, you and your team really haven't gotten the credit. But none of those emails would have come out. The emails with Jeffrey Epstein saying that Donald Trump was involved, that Donald Trump likely knew about this abuse. None of that would have come out if I wasn't on your program. If your team had not booked Bradley Edwards, and if Bradley Edwards hadn't made this obvious point saying, why is the Justice Department, why is the FBI not subpoenaing Epstein's estate? It was shocking to me they hadn't done that. And then Bradley Edwards said, look, if you subpoena that estate, I'm confident that they will comply. And your team connected Bradley Edwards with our team, and that's why we have these emails today, and that's why many more emails are going to come out. So they've done an incredible public service.

[A]

So it's a pretty dramatic day with that meeting at the White House that became public after the fact that Lauren Boebert, where they were obviously trying to pull at least one signature off the discharge petition. You cannot take your name off after it has been filed. But she could have taken her name off today and didn't. And then here we are tonight.

[D]

Well, I'm not sure if the White House knew that, frankly, Thomas Massie and I were texting back and forth all day. I mean, we've been at this five months. We were concerned. I mean, we, they, they brought her, as you pointed out, into the Situation Room, where they plan things like the bin Laden raid. And here they are pressuring Lauren Boebert to get off. They did the same with Nancy Mace, but they held. And you know what? The dam is breaking. Lawrence, I appreciated your analogy to Nixon because one of the things we saw with Nixon's end was Republicans started to desert him. And you're going to have a situation when Massie and my bill comes to the floor next week, which even the speaker now is saying that it will come. You're going to see 50, 60, maybe even more Republicans vote against him. That is a huge deal. Not because of the work Massie and I are doing, because it people are sensing the weakness of Donald Trump to be willing to cast that vote against him.

[A]

When we read things like Jeffrey Epstein saying that Donald Trump is the dog that has barked, we can all apply our imagined interpretations of what that can mean. But what kind of investigation do you think is necessary to actually get at the meaning of that? Especially given that it's an email to Ghislaine Maxwell, who is a living witness who could supply an explanation for what that email means? Because her response to Epstein is very clearly, she said, I've been thinking about that. So she knows exactly what it means.

[D]

Well, I think we need to investigate and interview Maxwell again, although, of course, her credibility is not very high. But we also know that there are other emails, there are more emails that likely mention Donald Trump, and we need to investigate those and see really two things. I mean, there's a question about what happened with underage girls, but there's also a question of how many people, including Donald Trump, did they know about the abuse and did they just sit there and not do anything with the abuse? And that is, in my view, equally damning. I mean, who does that if, you know, someone is raping junior high girls to just sit there and still be friends with them? And this whole thing is going to come and be exposed. Both Donald Trump and what I call the Epstein class, they need to have their day of accountability.

[A]

What do you expect to see next week? Is it just the, the vote on the discharge petition or will there be any other developments next week?

[D]

Well, there'll be the vote on the discharge petition. Of course, the numbers matter. Lawrence, you're more of an expert on the Senate than I am. But the bigger the number in the House, the more likely there is that this gets taken up in the Senate. And I'd like it to get taken up in the Senate because that's really, I mean, obviously what will force the release. But it also will send an incredible message in this country of people standing up to Trump. There's also further investigation. We expect more document releases. And then we have a press conference on Tuesday. Marjorie Taylor Greene, Thomas Massey and I, Bradley Edwards, and the survivors. And they're getting some of the survivors who haven't told their story before and they're going to talk about what really is in these files and what they want to see in terms of justice.

[A]

Congressman Ro Khanna, thank you very much for joining us once again tonight on this IMPORTANT story.

[D]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[A]

Thank you. And right now, Donald Trump is signing a bill that ends the government shutdown. We're keeping an eye on that. But coming up, Andrew Weissman will join us as he joined us 112 days ago when we first heard the idea of sending a subpoena to the Epstein estate on this program. Andrew Weissman is next.

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[A]

The bill signing at the White House took place during the commercial break. It just took minutes. Donald Trump then said to the assembled press, I'm sure you have questions, and then got up and left quickly without taking a single question. That's how afraid Donald Trump is tonight to be confronted with a single question about the emails released today about Jeffrey Epstein talking about Donald Trump. The Attorney General of the United States went to the White House situation room today to try to convince a relatively powerless Republican member of the House of Representatives, Lauren Boebert, to change her mind about supporting the release of the Epstein files. And the attorney general, accompanied by Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer, now Donald Trump's deputy attorney General, Todd Blanche, failed in their mission to force Lauren Boebert to change her position. If you're trying to imagine just how weak the attorney general's presentation was in that room in her defense of Donald Trump, here's the attorney general unable to answer a very simple question about what she has seen in the Epstein files. There's been public reporting that Jeffrey Epstein showed people photos of President Trump with half naked young women. Do you know if the FBI found those photographs in their search of Jeffrey Epstein, safe or premises or otherwise? Have you seen any such thing?

[C]

You know, Senator Whitehouse, you sit here and make salacious remarks once again trying to slander President Trump left and right when you're the one who was taking money from one of Epstein's closest confidants. I believe I could be wrong. Correct me, Reid Hoffman, who was with Jeffrey Epstein on multiple occasions, and the senator sitting right next to you tried to block the flight logs from being released. Yet you're grilling me on President Trump and some photograph with Epstein.

[F]

Come on.

[A]

The question is, did the FBI find those photographs that have been discussed publicly by a witness who claimed Jeffrey Epstein showed them to him? You don't know anything about that. Okay. By the way, she was wrong about that money. Also to Senator Whitehouse. Joining us now is Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel and MSNBC legal analyst. Andrew, your reaction to what we are learning in this release of emails tonight?

[B]

Well, one of the things that I've been thinking about is what should happen next. The what we have seen tonight and the documents are devastating in terms of the story that we had been told. And now what we see in black and white, I think it's totally correct, as you have done, is to put it in context, where Donald Trump has previously said to New York magazine that he was aware of Jeffrey Epstein's predilections, he liked young girls. And what we're seeing now is real corroboration for what he said. I'd also like to just remind people about what a Cabinet member of the Trump administration has said. Howard Lutnick, the Secretary of Commerce, he reported that he and his wife went to the Epstein townhouse, and there, right in his living room was the massage table. And they were, I think the phrase they used was grossed out, and they left. And the reason I'm raising that is that this is not a man, Mr. Epstein, who is hiding things. This is somebody who the, you know, a Cabinet member was in his former position, went to his house and saw all of this. So the idea that Donald Trump did not know, when you have Jeffrey Epstein saying in writing at a time that he has no known reason to lie, that he did know is, you know, is really devastating proof. But what should happen now, I think, is something you hit on with the congressman, which is, yes, there can be a congressional investigation. Ghislaine Maxwell is alive. She can be required to testify again. She can give a grand jury subpoena. She could even be immunized to find out what she knows. And at any normal administration, a special counsel could be appointed because this Department of Justice is clearly not independent just by the mere fact of what you just said, which is that the leaders of the Justice Department were engaged in a political mission for Donald Trump just today in the Situation room.

[A]

And they know what's in the Epstein files. The attorney General, the deputy attorney general, they know what's in the Epstein files. They have decided it is hugely important to Donald Trump that the Epstein files never come out.

[B]

And to that point, it is worth remembering if you go back and look at Todd Blanche's interview, which is now that is public, do you know how many questions there are of her related to these documents? I think that would be zero. And that is, you know, if you want to understand the nature of what, in my view is the COVID up, it is that when I saw these documents, as a former prosecutor, one of the first things I said is this is so damning of what the Department of Justice is doing here because how could you sit there with Ghislaine Maxwell, who has been convicted of not just witnessing but participating in Epstein's hideous crimes, and not ask her about this, of saying she's aware of what he knew, she's aware of what happened, that, you know, we see documents saying that Epstein is the person who has the goods on Donald Trump. How can you not ask about that and just instead of listen to her lying and then give her a benefit because she's sitting in a camp now with, as the New York Times has reported, all sorts of privileges and then.

[A]

Reportedly come back telling people that he believes her, he actually believed Ghislaine Maxwell.

[B]

Yes. I mean, look, this is, it is truly incredible. But what it tells you is how far we are from the Biden administration where special counsels were appointed for Joe Biden himself, for Hunter Biden. You had the idea that they understood what the role of the department is and what a conflict is here. You really do have people acting both in a, in a political capacity and still acting as the personal counsel for the president. And we really should not normalize that. And it is a reason why you need to have a special counsel looking at this because no one else is going to get at what is it that in fact Ghislaine Maxwell and people she spoke to and emails and documents that may exist that we don't know about are available to unravel what happened here and to explain why is the White House so afraid of releasing the rest of the documents.

[A]

We're going to later in the hour go through a line by line analysis of these emails today with an expert on the Epstein investigation. Investigations actually written a book about the Esther investigation. But Andrew, if you can hold on, I'd like to squeeze in a commercial break. And we'll be back with more after this break with Andrew Weissman.

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[A]

Andrew Weissman is back with us. And Andrew, in Ghislaine Maxwell's interview with Todd Blanche, she says talking about Donald Trump, I don't recall ever seeing him in his house, meaning I don't recall ever seeing Donald Trump in Jeffrey Epstein's house. And Jeffrey Epstein's own email to Ghislaine Maxwell in 2011, he talks about Donald Trump having spent hours at my house with one of the actual victims. That victim spent hours at my house with him, meaning Trump. To which Ghislaine Maxwell says, I have been thinking about that. It is a fair interpretation of that exchange that Ghislaine Maxwell has been thinking about those hours Donald Trump spent at Jeffrey Epstein's house with that victim of Jeffrey Epstein.

[B]

So, you know, does that in and of itself mean that she lied? No. She could have forgotten. But also the email itself doesn't say that Ghislaine Maxwell was present when that was happening. When I looked at these emails and I then had a chance, like you, to go back over key parts of her interview. What it suggested to me was that there was extremely careful scripting of her answers between her and her counsel. I'm not saying her counsel thought that that, you know, was coaching her to lie. I'm saying that this is one where he may have believed what she was saying, but it seemed really careful in terms of trying to have her avoid actually flat out lying, as opposed to misleading, because it's so danced around things that we now know. And to me, it highlighted it's not to blame the defense counsel and her. It's the job of Todd Blanche, the number two in the Justice Department, to press her with better questions and to confront her with these documents. So if she had said that in the deposition, any, any good prosecutor would have shown that document and said, well, are you saying that you were not there, you were never there and explain it? None of that happened. And that tells you everything about this administration. To me, that sort of. It's not just the Epstein documents themselves. It tells you everything about the corruption that is going on between the White House and the Department of Justice in terms of the rule of law.

[A]

So with Donald Trump, you can analyze what he says and you can analyze what he doesn't say. And some of the most interesting moments with Donald Trump are his silences. And tonight, he was silent. He had a public bill signing at the White House. He had one of those opportunities to talk to the reporters, as he usually likes to do, and just tell them lies in response to their questions. But tonight, he walked away from them without taking a single question, knowing that every single question would have been about Jeffrey Epstein's emails today released today about Donald Trump. What does that kind of silence tell us at a moment like this in this investigation?

[B]

You know, in the law, there is a doctrine where, you know, silence when you would normally speak is something that you obviously go to a jury and you say, well, why isn't the person explaining it? Obviously there are situations where you have a Fifth Amendment right not to testify, but that's not the situation we're in here. Here you have the situation where he knows, in my view, that he's just going to put more fuel into this story by saying something, and if it's not carefully scripted, he's going to get himself in worse trouble because we've already seen statements that he has made that seem completely belied by the documents that we have. So saying that I just had no idea what Jeffrey Epstein was up to is something that is just contradicted by not just what we've seen today, but some of Donald Trump's own prior statements. And so to me, that is why you're seeing this sort of silence on the part of the White White House. And to be clear, the efforts to get Congress to back off, to me, it's like he's going to be silent and he wants Congress to endorse that so that it's not just the Justice Department, but it's also the second branch of government that is going to stonewall and cover up what is happening here.

[A]

Andrew Weissman, thank you very much for joining us tonight on this important story.

[B]

You're welcome.

[A]

Thank you. And coming up, Barry Levine has actually written the book on Jeffrey Epstein, the Jeffrey Epstein investigation, and knows more detail of that investigation than possibly anyone we could hear from tonight. He'll give us his word for word analysis of the Epstein emails released today. That's next. Joining us now for an expert perspective on the Epstein emails released today is Barry Levine. He's the author of the Inside the Criminal Web of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. And Barry, I just want you to describe for us the surrounding context of Jeffrey Epstein's life and condition in, say, April of 2011, when he wrote this email to Ghislaine Maxwell, the one that says, I want you to realize that that dog that hasn't barked is Trump victim spent hours at my house with him. He has never once been mentioned, police chief, etc. I'm 75% there. To which Ghislaine Maxwell replies, I have been thinking about that.

[F]

Yeah, Lawrence, I mean, that's a very particular time. This was only a few weeks after Virginia Giuffre went public for the very first time in the London Sunday Mail where she acknowledged sexual abuse by Prince Andrew and others. And this was a response of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell talking about their sex slave who is now for the first time, going public. So Jeffrey Epstein is asking, what about Donald Trump? And he's telling Ghislaine Maxwell, well, Trump spent hours with her, okay? And then she responds knowingly. Now, we know that she has denied any type of wrongdoing by Trump, but this opens up the relationship so much, it also raises, he raises the police chief, that was Michael Ryder, who was the police chief in Palm beach, who investigated Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell back in 2004. So Epstein's wondering, when is Donald Trump's name going to surface? And this at this particular time. Also, Donald Trump was moving from the Apprentice into politics. He was making a lot of the birther claims about President Obama.

[A]

When is his name? When is his name going to surface? Do you mean possibly with Virginia Giuffre? Because as he's saying in the email, Trump spent several hours with that same person who was the source of the story that had just been published.

[F]

Correct.

[A]

Without Prince Andrew, but not mentioning Trump.

[D]

That's correct.

[F]

So Epstein is wondering and discussing with Maxwell, when is Donald Trump's name gonna surface in this?

[A]

Right, let's go to the other one. It says, this email is to Michael Wolff, January 2019, and it reads, victim Mar A Lago. And redacted. Trump said, he asked me to resign. Never a member ever. Of course, he knew about the girls as he asked Ghislaine to stop. How do you read that?

[F]

Well, that of course, has to do with the fact that Maxwell was recruiting girls from the spa at Mar A Lago. In fact, Virginia Giuffre was the first that she took back in 2000. And apparently she went. Maxwell went back there and attempted to recruit other girls. So this is a reference to the fact that Donald Trump was finding out about this and put a stop to Maxwell continuing to recruit girls out of his spa.

[A]

And the ask to resign. That's about the club membership.

[F]

That's about the club membership. However, we know through investigative research that Jeffrey Epstein, that Jeffrey Epstein stayed on the Mar A Lago membership logs. Well after his first slap on the wrist conviction in Florida back in 2008. He was still a member after that period of time.

[A]

And of course, he knew about the girls. That's as obvious as it seems to be.

[F]

Yeah. And there's a very interesting email that Jeffrey Epstein wrote basically for his own file. He wrote the email to himself where he said, Donald Trump very plainly said Donald Trump knows about this, but he also pointed out that Donald Trump did not have a massage. So what we're left with tonight is knowing for a fact from Jeffrey Epstein that Donald Trump likely knew about his conduct, knew about the sex trafficking that was taking place. Now, of course, Donald Trump has denied that all the way up to tonight.

[A]

Yep. Barry Levine, thank you very much for joining us tonight. We'll be right back. That is tonight's last word. Tomorrow's going to be a big news day.