← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Lawrence: 'Irreversibly stupid' Trump's biggest tariff 'humiliation day' has yet to come
00:42:55
Tonight on The Last Word: A second federal court rules Donald Trump’s tariffs are illegal. Also, a federal judge blocks Trump’s ban on Harvard University’s foreign students. And Elon Musk officially leaves the White House. Rick Woldenberg, Laurence Tribe, and Rep. Melanie Stansbury join Lawrence O’Donnell.
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- [00:00]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Every day is a chance to move forward, so why settle for gear that holds you back? Roan delivers technical fabrics that breathe, stretch and adapt, keeping you sharp and comfortable. From work to workouts. Roan's advanced fabrics fight odor, keep you cool and move with you. With wrinkle release tech and a tailored fit, you'll always look as good as you feel. Upgrade your wardrobe, because when your clothing performs, so do you. Roan Performance Apparel Fit for progress new customers get 20% off your first order at roan.com with code ROAN20.
- [00:32]
Jen Psaki
Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.
- [00:39]
Lawrence Tribe
All the stories that we're covering are.
- [00:41]
Rick Waldenberg
Live and happening as we speak.
- [00:43]
Jen Psaki
Watch your favorite shows live.
- [00:44]
Rick Waldenberg
What's happening right now is a hostile takeover of the US Government.
- [00:49]
Jen Psaki
Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app now@msnbc.com app the Last.
- [01:02]
Rick Waldenberg
Word with Lawrence O' Donnell starts right now. Hey, Lawrence.
- [01:06]
Lawrence Tribe
Hey, Jen. You know, I've become a very reluctant predictor in the age of Donald Trump, but I don't believe that he is ever going to get personal ownership of that plan if it, if it does get transferred to the government. I don't believe this government is then going to transfer it to him for his personal use at the end. I'm not. I don't. I think he's going to be able to make that part of the deal stick, but we're going to have to be patient to find out.
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Rick Waldenberg
I'm not going to take the other end of that bet, Lawrence. Maybe somebody watching will, but I'm with you.
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Lawrence Tribe
Okay. Right. We will see. Thanks, Jen. Thank you.
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Rick Waldenberg
Thanks, Lawrence.
- [01:51]
Lawrence Tribe
Well, Donald Trump said today that he will issue refunds of his illegal tariffs to every American business that has been forced to pay those tariffs. Donald Trump being the most incompetent president in history and the president who knows the least about what his own government is doing, his own White House at any given moment, means that it is very likely tonight that Donald Trump is learning this for the first time. It is very likely tonight that Donald Trump does not know until I just said it that he made that promise today. Donald Trump's Justice Department lawyers, desperately begging an appeals court to pause the unanimous ruling last night by the United States Court of International Trade against the Trump tariffs, knew. Those lawyers knew what they would have to tell the appeals court to get the appeals court to pause last night's ruling that the Trump tariffs are unconstitutional and illegal. And so Donald Trump's Justice Department lawyers put it in writing today that Donald Trump will issue refunds of his illegal tariffs if the final ruling in the case by the appeals court or the United States Supreme Court agrees with the real judicial experts about international trade that the Trump tariffs are illegal. The best way to hide important news like this from, from most people in the news media is to put it in writing, in legal pleadings that very few people in the news media ever actually read. There are some newspaper reports about the appeals court decision today to grant the Trump Justice Department's request to pause the ruling in the case. But even those reports don't find the reason why the appeals court did that. The federal appeals court didn't give a reason why they did it. The federal appeals court unanimously granted a temporary pause in last night's ruling by the United States Court of International Trade, saying today, quote, the request for an immediate administrative stay is granted. These cases are temporarily stayed until further notice while this court considers the motions papers. And that's all the appeals court said. They don't have to say why they were doing that. And they did not say why they stayed the case until at least June 9, which is now the deadline they issued for briefs from both sides to be fully submitted to the appeals court. One of the key factors in issuing a stay during an appeal like this is that the stay will not harm the other side. When you're asking for a stay, you have to make it clear to the court that the stay won't harm the other side in the case. And so on page 25 of the Trump lawyers pleading to the appeals court today for a stay in the case, Donald Trump's lawyers put this promise from Donald Trump in writing to the appeals court. If tariffs imposed on plaintiffs during these appeals are ultimately held unlawful, then the government will issue refunds to plaintiffs, including any post judgment interest that accrues. And a huge amount of interest could accrue on the tariffs that have already been paid. So there's Donald Trump's promise in writing that if and when he loses this case in the final adjudication by the appeals court or by the United States Supreme Court, all of the illegally collected tariffs, money by Donald Trump, all of it collected from Americans and American businesses, and only American businesses, all of the Trump tariffs will be refunded to those Americans who paid those illegal tariffs. The treasury of the United States, where that money was collected, knows exactly how to issue refunds. They issue refunds to many of you, millions of you, every year after you File your tax returns and you show that more money has been withheld from your paychecks for taxes during the year than you actually owe. The treasury sends out millions upon millions upon millions of such tax refunds every single year. Treasury knows how to do refunds. And now when Donald Trump loses this case, the treasury will be busy sending out billions of dollars to in Trump tariff refunds. And without Donald Trump's promise today to refund that money, it is very unlikely that the appeals court would have granted the Trump side of the case a pause in being subject to the ruling made by the federal judges on the International Trade Court, who know more about international trade than any other judges in our federal system. The very first federal case in a federal court in the United States of America was an international trade case. Litigation of international trade became increasingly more complex over the centuries. And in the 20th century, Congress decided it was time to create a unique federal court with expertise and jurisdiction over international trade cases. In 1926, Congress created the United States Customs Court. And in 1980, with the jet engine having brought international trade to the threshold of true global trade, the Congress clarified and enhanced the standing of the Customs Court and changed its name to the United States Court of International Trade. Democratic Senator Dennis de Concini, who sponsored the legislation, said the new court would be, quote, a vastly improved for judicial review of administrative actions of government agencies dealing with importations. The provisions make it clear to those who suffer injury in this area that they may seek redress in a court. And if they are successful, the Court of International Trade will be able to afford them relief which is appropriate and necessary to make them whole. And so today, Donald Trump, through his lawyers, had to promise to make them whole, had to promise to refund all of the Trump tariffs paid so far if and when they are found to be illegal and unconstitutional in a final court ruling. And so, as many humiliation days as Donald Trump has had since he started his failed trade war, refund day will be the ultimate humiliation day at the end of Donald Trump's disastrous trade war. Refund day is coming, and it will be the most humiliating day Donald Trump will suffer in his losing trade war. Tonight, Donald Trump humiliated himself once again by showing how irreversibly stupid and flawlessly ignorant he is of the actual words of the Constitution and their meaning. He did that in a social media post that once again reveals the most severe mental weakness not just in the history of the presidency, but in the history of federal elected officials in this country. The Trump social media post begins by saying the US Court of international Trade incredibly ruled against the United States of America on desperately needed tariffs. Of course, the correct way of putting that is the United States Court of International Trade predictably ruled in favor of the United States Constitution. Donald Trump goes on to show his inability to pass a high school civics test by saying, the horrific decision stated that I would have to get the approval of Congress for these tariffs. In other words, hundreds of politicians would sit around D.C. for weeks and even months trying to come to a conclusion as to what to charge other countries that are treating us unfairly. That is the constitutional design for how this country sets tariffs or how this country sets tax rates. Tariffs, the exclusive jurisdiction of Congress according to the United States Constitution. Exclusive jurisdiction. And hundreds of politicians have been sitting around D.C. for weeks and even months now trying to come up with a Republican budget for the United States, which the House of Representatives managed to pass by exactly one vote. And you never heard Donald Trump complain about the hundreds of politicians being involved in that legislation. Hundreds of politicians deciding exactly how to cut Medicaid, how to take health care coverage away from Americans. That was the work of hundreds of Republican politicians sitting around D.C. as Donald Trump would put it, for weeks and even months. And while they were sitting around D.C. those hundreds of Republican politicians decided just how big a tax cut to give to Donald Trump and his family and to Elon Musk and to the richest people in the world. Donald Trump didn't decide that he's just going to get to sign the legislation when it arrives at the White House. And in fact, international trade deals often take several years of people sitting around D.C. and sitting around Geneva and other capitals in the world, negotiating with other countries the specifics of trade deals and working on the details of international trade that then gets presented to Congress in a final bill that Congress votes on that sets all of the tariffs that this country has. Congress does that, not the president. And there is not a single high school student in America taking an AP government course this year who does not know that. Donald Trump goes on to say, if allowed to stand, this would completely destroy presidential power. The presidency would never be the same exclamation point. No, Donald. No, no, no, Donald. If the Court of International Trade's decision is allowed to stand, that means the presidency would be the same as it has always been. The presidency in which no president other than Donald Trump ever tried to randomly set new tariffs all around world all by himself. No president from George Washington to Barack Obama and then Joe Biden ever did that. Presidents are empowered by law to make very Minor, very specific, very temporary changes in tariffs for specific products for a very short period of time. But that's not what Donald Trump did. He put a 10% tariff on the entire planet. Congress could do that. They could pass an economically idiotic 10% tariff on the entire world. But even the Republican Congress isn't that stupid. The Republican Congress is not as stupid as Donald Trump about tariffs. And so Donald Trump has launched into his tariff madness alone, the only president in history to have done so. And with an exclamation point, the utterly lost occupant of the White House tells us that the presidency would never be the same if we actually restore, through sane court decisions, presidential power to what it has always been from the day George Washington took the oath of office. Donald Trump's permanently smiling and totally incompetent economic adviser, who never achieved tenure in his brief career as a low level economics professor before becoming Donald Trump's economics Professor in residence, took his frozen smile to friendly television interviewers today by saying that the ruling by the Court of International Trade will not have any impact at all on the Trump team's so called trade negotiations around the world in which they promised to deliver 90 trade deals in 90 days and have not yet delivered a single trade deal, not one. And while the childish bystanders of the economic profession, Kevin Hassett, was publicly spewing his nonsense about a court ruling against the Trump tariffs having no effect on the countries that the Trump team is trying to negotiate with. Of course, of course the Trump team was in court putting in writing exactly the opposite. The other point that the Trump lawyers had to convince the appeals court of today in order to obtain a stay was that if they didn't obtain a stay, they, their side of the case would suffer what the law considers irreparable harm, while insisting that the plaintiffs would suffer no harm because the government will simply refund to them the Trump tariff money if they win. The Trump lawyers insisted that Donald Trump was already suffering harm to his so called trade negotiations by the ruling that of the Court of International Trade because it takes away what the Trump lawyers called the credible threat. That was their phrase, credible threat of Donald Trump's tariffs, which means that, quote, foreign counterparts will have reduced incentives to reach meaningful agreements. The Secretary of State, Secretary of Treasury and US Trade representatives similarly explained that the trade trade negotiations currently ongoing with dozens of countries are in a delicate state and could be shattered by an injunction against the tariffs. So there was the smiling clown of Trump Economic Policy on television telling you the ruling by the court has no effect at all on their negotiations with other countries. While at exactly the same time, the Trump Justice Department lawyers are in court telling the appeals court that the negotiations with other countries have been shattered by the court ruling against the Trump tariffs. Quote, those negotiations are premised on the ability of the president to impose tariffs under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act. Just another day in Trumpland. The Trump clowns on TV saying one thing, the Trump lawyers functionally under oath in court saying exactly the opposite, and the goofy chaos agent at the center of it all not having the slightest idea what he's doing or what the people on his team in court are saying. Donald Trump is lost in the White House tonight. He is lost in the madness of his trade war. He does not have, and has never had the mental capacity to comprehend a single element of what it actually means to be President of the United States. Donald Trump makes every president who preceded him look better, including the criminal Richard Nixon, who was not half as criminal as Donald Trump, who, unlike Richard Nixon, has actually been convicted of crimes and was. Richard Nixon was supremely competent compared only to Donald Trump. Richard Nixon's worst day was better than Donald Trump's best day in the White House. And that is not something I said during the first Trump presidency. But the second Trump presidency has turned out to be much, much worse than his first presidency. Of course, the Trump tariff refunds won't make someone whole if their company has already got out of business because of the Trump tariffs. And so, until the final adjudication of the Trump tariff case at the appeals court or the Supreme Court, the Trump tariffs will continue to harm the American economy and all of us who live in it.
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Melanie Stansberry
Businesses cannot place orders because they don't know what the costs were going to be. There is an extra burden on the small businesses who can't afford to pay the tariffs on goods that they haven't sold yet. And manufacturers can't order parts because prices are fluctuating wildly in the supply chain. That means exporters do not know how foreign trading partners will even retaliate against them for shelf space.
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Lawrence Tribe
That was Democratic Senator Maria Cantwell today at the Port of Seattle. Today, another judge in another federal court ruled that the Trump tariffs are illegal and unconstitutional, following the reasoning of the Court of International Trade. In that case, the Trump Justice Department lawyer defending the tariffs told the court that it would be a diplomatic embarrassment. Those were his words. Diplomatic embarrassment. For the judge to rule that the Trump tariffs are illegal and unconstitutional. The judge ruled that they are illegal and unconstitutional. The case is Learning Resources Inc. Versus Trump in federal court in Washington, D.C. where our next guest sued Donald Trump for ruining his business by putting massive illegal tariffs on the learning toys and other learning tools that his company imports from China. Learning Resources, Inc. Won that case today against Donald Trump in the federal district court. It will now be appealed. Donald Trump has claimed that his tariffs are legal under the International Emergency Economic Powers act of 1977, which no president other than Donald Trump has ever used to impose tariffs because that law does not allow a president to impose tariffs, as the trade court ruled. The law Donald Trump is using as his justification for imposing tariffs does not even have the word tariff in it. That is how much the law does not authorize the president to impose tariffs. The Trump lawyer could not pretend that the law does allow tariffs. And so he simply argued in that case that it would just be too embarrassing to have a judge find that Donald Trump's tariffs are illegal and unconstitutional. The Trump lawyer said that would, quote, kneecap the president on the world stage. The clown of the world stage cannot be kneecapped by a federal judge since he has no knees left on the world stage based on the self kneecapping he does every day as the world's stupidest president. The other argument the Trump lawyers made for allowing Donald Trump to continue his illegal tariffs is that if our next guest is successful in his lawsuit against the Trump tariffs, quote, you would have multiple, potentially thousands of other plaintiffs that flood into this court and seek the same relief. That is as legally childish an argument as any lawyer could make in a courtroom anywhere. That's the Trump lawyer telling the judge, if you find that the Trump tariffs are illegal, everyone will find out that they are illegal. Well, thanks to the United States Court of International Trade, everyone found out. Leading off our discussion tonight is Rick Waldenberg, CEO of Learning Resources, Inc. Who's suing the Trump administration over the tariffs. His company has been making award winning educational toys for the last 40 years. Rick, thank you very much for joining us on this program Again, you were scheduled to join us last night before the breaking news came in from the Court of International Trade, changing everything we were doing last night. But you won today. You actually got to the spot you were hoping to get to in this case today. You'll now be part of this appeals process. What was it like to actually get to the point where you won your point at the first trial level, at the first court level in this case?
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Rick Waldenberg
Honestly, I was on a conference call and they walked in the room and they said, did you hear? And I Said what? And they said, we won. I said, we won what? I wasn't expecting it. I was obviously ecstatic. It's a huge victory for small businesses like ours. We've been siphoned out of a lot of money and now we have a fighting chance, I think.
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Lawrence Tribe
So what has it been like? Because the courts, they don't hear from, these appeals courts don't hear from you directly when they're deciding, should we impose this ruling now or should we stay it? Should we pause it? And the argument they heard today was Rick Waldenberg has nothing to worry about because if he continues to pay these tariffs that are ruled illegal, we will just eventually Donald Trump will refund those tariffs to you. And that's their argument, that delaying these rulings doesn't harm you in any way because eventually you will get a refund, if that's what it comes to. What's your reaction to that?
- [23:40]
Rick Waldenberg
Well, the judge commented on that. I filed a 17 page declaration making clear the many different ways in which we suffer losses every day. So some of our losses are in the form of the tariffs. And so they're correct. The tariffs that we pay would come back to us. But the money that we spend rebuilding our supply chain, supply chain, the money that we spend hiring services to move things around, to redesign, to retest the business that we lost, the cancellation of orders, the suspension of manufacturing, we have a list as long as your arm of losses that won't be compensated for because you can't seek those kinds of damages against the US Government.
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Lawrence Tribe
And in the meantime, are there other companies in your field that could be going out of business and in other fields that you're aware of, small companies that won't survive the waiting period to get to the, the ultimate real legal ruling on these tariffs?
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Rick Waldenberg
I know that there are hundreds of thousands of businesses in the United States that are experiencing the same problems we are. It's a completely discombobulating environment. We have upwards of 30% of our office employees working on tariffs full time or part time. They weren't. We had zero percent a month ago. It's unbelievably disruptive. It changes how you spend money, it changes how you spend time. It's hard to believe that there aren't a lot of companies citing this as a reason. We had a couple of major customers who were retailers who I think are going out of business and they cited in public filings tariffs as a reason. So, yes, everybody's feeling the pressure. This is a massive tax increase, Lawrence. Of course, they're feeling the pressure.
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Lawrence Tribe
Rick Waldenberg, thank you very much for joining us again tonight. Pleasure. Thank you. Harvard University constitutional law professor Lawrence Tribe will join us next.
- [25:45]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Every day is a chance to move forward, so why settle for gear that holds you back? Roan delivers technical fabrics that breathe, stretch and adapt, keeping you sharp and comfortable from work to workouts. Rhone's advanced fabrics fight odor, keep you cool, and move with you. With wrinkle release tech and a tailored fit, you'll always look as good as you feel. Upgrade your wardrobe, because when your clothing performs, so do you. Rhone Performance apparel fit for progress. New customers get 20% off your first order at rhone.com with code RHONE20.
- [26:16]
Jen Psaki
MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of the Briefing.
- [26:20]
Rick Waldenberg
We've never experienced a moment like this in our country, and it leaves us all with a choice. Are we gonna speak out or are we gonna be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents. I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies. You don't need to be hopeless. We have our voices, and I will continue using mine.
- [26:40]
Jen Psaki
The Briefing with Jen Psaki, Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.
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Lawrence Tribe
In an editorial tonight, the Wall Street Journal said in a ruling heard round the world, the US Court of International Trade on Wednesday blocked President Trump's sweeping tariffs. This is an important moment for the rule of law as much as for the economy, proving again that America doesn't have a king who can rule by decree. Joining our discussion now is Professor Lawrence Tribe, who has taught constitutional law at Harvard Law School for five decades. Professor Tribe, thank you very much joining us tonight.
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Alan Garber
Thank you.
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Lawrence Tribe
The Court of International Trade said that if Donald Trump's tariffs were allowed to stand, as they put it, it would be the death knell of the Constitution.
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Alan Garber
Well, that's pretty dramatic, but what it would do is basically rewrite it. The Constitution, as we all know, Article 1, Section 8 gives Congress the power to tax, and tariffs are a kind of tax. Now, Congress can delegate part of that power under constraints and standards to the president or to parts of the executive branch. But the court in this case, and it was three judges, by the way, one appointed by Ronald Reagan, one by Barack Obama, and one by, wait for it, Donald Trump. All three agreed that in this case there was nothing that authorized the imposition of these particular tariffs. The president claimed that the International Economic Emergencies act gave him the power and the supposed emergency was that we had trade deficits. Well, that's nothing new. We've had them for 49 years in a row. That doesn't work as an argument, and the three judges quickly dispensed with it. The other emergency was that with respect to the tariffs on China, Mexico and Canada, there was a problem with fentanyl and sex trafficking at the border. But as the court pointed out, that had nothing to do with the tariffs that were imposed. The argument that the tariffs might change the internal policies of Canada, Mexico and in other countries China didn't make any sense. And by the way, ultimately these tariffs, as we have all learned, are passed off onto consumers in the form of higher prices. How the process of refunding all of the consumers is going to work, I have no idea. So the whole idea is crazy. There is a law, a specific law that Congress passed in 1974, the Tariff act of 74. No, I'm sorry, I think it's called the Trade act of 74 that does authorize the imposition of specialized tariffs to deal with unique trade imbalances, but that wasn't invoked here. So altogether, the president is making it up out of whole cloth, and the ultimate victims are American taxpayers who will not be made whole and the Constitution, which will suffer a grievous wound even though it will not be totally destroyed. I think this will get to the US Supreme Court quite quickly and it is almost certain, I think, to agree with the three judges.
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Lawrence Tribe
First time I'd like to squeeze in a commercial break here. It was a big day at Harvard today and a big day in court for Harvard. I'd like to get your comments about that when we come back after this break. We'll be right back.
- [30:59]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Every day is a chance to move forward, so why settle for gear that holds you back? Roan delivers technical fabrics that breathe, stretch and adapt, keeping you sharp and comfortable. From work to workouts, Roan's advanced fabrics fight odor, keep you cool and move with you. With wrinkle release tech and a tailored fit, you'll always look as good as you feel. Upgrade your wardrobe, because when your clothing performs, so do you. Roan Performance Apparel Fit for Progress. New customers get 20% off your first order@rome.com with code ROME20.
- [31:31]
Melanie Stansberry
Hi everyone, it's Nicole Wallace from MSNBC. I'm so excited to tell you about my new podcast called the Best People. I sit down with some of the smartest and funniest, most creative people I've encountered, people who inspire me both professionally and personally people like Kara Swisher, Rachel Maddow, Doc Rivers, Jason Bateman and Sarah Jessica Parker.
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Lawrence Tribe
They'll often say, hey, Kerry, you know, they'll call me Carrie.
- [31:55]
Melanie Stansberry
And that's all right, too. Join me each week as I talk with and learn from somebody new, the.
- [32:01]
Jen Psaki
Best People with Nicole Wallace. First two episodes drop Monday. Follow now for early access ad free listening and bonus content. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
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Lawrence Tribe
It was a commencement day like no other at Harvard University today. It was Harvard's 374th graduation day. Our oldest university will continue having celebratory graduation days for the next 374 years. And there is nothing Donald Trump can do to stop the progress and the scholarship and the contribution to the world that Harvard University has been making since its founding in 1636. Harvard's president, Alan Garber, received an emotional welcome to the podium today. Welcome.
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Alan Garber
Sam. Thank you. Welcome family and friends, champions and supporters. Welcome guests from down the street, across the country and around the world. And welcome members of the Class of 2025. Members of the Class of 2020 from down the street, across the country and around the world. Around the world. Just as it should be.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
It.
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Lawrence Tribe
And we're back with Harvard Law Professor Lawrence Tribe. Professor Tribe lawyers were in court while that was happening in Harvard Yard, arguing the Harvard case against Donald Trump's attacks on the university. Judge saying that she wants to maintain the status quo by putting an injunction in place about the way that Trump is trying to stop foreign students from coming to Harvard. Judge saying people are terrified. What is the posture of that case now?
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Alan Garber
Well, the posture of the case is that the judge is almost certainly going to enter a preliminary injunction, which I'm sure that the Trump administration will appeal straight to the Supreme Court, trying to leapfrog the First Circuit. But the key point to remember is, and it's the reason really that President Garber got and deserved that remarkable standing ovation was that this is an attack not just on Harvard, but as Kristi Noem, the secretary of the Homeland Security Department, said, this is a warning shot to all universities in America. And the warning shot is that this president thinks he has the power to change the curriculum, change the approach, change everything about the way education proceeds in this country. Harvard is the one he's picking on now, and he's throwing everything he can at Harvard, not just the sudden withdrawal of the right to enroll foreign students who make an enormous contribution to Harvard and to the world, but also trying to strip Harvard of its tax exemptions and tax benefits and cutting off all the grants. The point about that is he's doing it to Harvard by name. And after Harvard, it'll be somebody else by name. Not since King Henry VIII has government, either in England or in the United States, asserted the power of a politician or political branch to simply decide whom to punish. That's called a Bill of Attainder. It went all the way back to Edward ii, and not even King George III exercised this kind of power. He had to get Parliament to go along. This guy thinks he is not just a king, but a king with powers beyond the imaginations of the modern kings of the last few centuries. In England, the Bill of Attainder is just shorthand for the attempt by either Congress or the president or both of them acting together to bypass due process, trial by jury, every process for deciding whether the institution or individual who is being singled out for punishment deserves it has actually done anything wrong. When Trump University was sued, Trump was all over the argument that we are entitled to fair hearing on whether we did commit fraud. And that was ultimately settled. But Harvard supposedly doesn't get that hearing. Well, actually, after President Garber stood up to President Trump, the government pulled back a bit. And this morning they issued a statement saying, okay, we will go through some procedures as the law requires before we take away your right to host foreign students under the exchange program that's been in place for 70 years. But they've clearly already reached their conclusion. That's why it's so clear, given the fear that these students have, so clear that Judge Allison Burrows insists on freezing the ability of the federal government to keep piling on to Harvard. And Harvard in this case is basically defending interests of the whole country.
- [39:53]
Lawrence Tribe
Harvard Law Professor Lawrence Tribe, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
- [39:58]
Alan Garber
Thank you, Lawrence.
- [39:59]
Lawrence Tribe
Thank you. And coming up, no Democrat in the House of Representatives has exposed done more to expose Elon Musk's destruction of the federal government than our next guest, Representative Melanie Stansberry, who is the top Democrat on the House Oversight Subcommittee on Government Efficiency. She will join us next on Elon Musk's so called final day in government. In a tweet yesterday, Elon Musk tried to save his electric car company by writing. As my scheduled time as a special government employee comes to an end, I would like to thank President Donald Trump for the opportunity to reduce wasteful spending. The Department of of Government Efficiency mission will only strengthen over time as it becomes a way of life throughout the government. Elon Musk's mission was, by all accounts, including his own, a total failure but it did expose the unadulterated evil of, as Bill Gates put it, the world's richest man killing the world's poorest children. That is exactly what what Elon Musk did by literally taking food away from starving babies and starving people of all ages in the middle of a famine in Sudan. That was Elon Musk's first idea, his first contribution to the American government. Tesla buyers made Elon Musk the richest person in the world. And they are apparently not happy with the monster Bill Gates describes. So Tesla sales have collapsed in the United States and in Europe. And Elon Musk is trying to emphasize his departure from Trump world to try to win those customers back, to try to convince people to still send him money through Tesla dealerships, money that he can then give to Donald Trump. Tesla sales made Elon Musk the biggest political campaign contributor in the history of the world, and he gave it all to Donald Trump. And now Elon Musk is going to try to beg American car buyers and car buyers around the world to keep him the richest person in the world, after he's been exposed, as Bill Gates put it, the world's richest man killing the world's poorest children. Joining our discussion now is Democratic Representative Melanie Stansbury of New Mexico. She is the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee Subcommittee on Government Efficiency. Carson Wood, Desbury. How would you rate Elon Musk's service so far in government, if we can call it that?
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Melanie Stansberry
Well, let's just say that I think we've had a front row seat to unfettered greed, unfettered power and unfettered hubris. And we've seen what the richest man does when he has unfettered access to the federal government and the destructive chaos that he unleashed on the American people. I think his legacy will be remembered for the more than 200 court cases and injunctions against the federal government, for the thousands of Americans who he fired and whose lives are in chaos, for the children, as you mentioned, for whom food aid was never delivered because of his dismantling of usaid. I think he'll be remembered for his belief in his own power to do anything he wanted and for his unchecked data hacking of the largest breach of data in American history and in addition to that, his self dealing. I don't think we've ever seen as much grift aside from Donald Trump as we saw during Elon Musk's tenure. We just heard even yesterday that NSF announced that they've been forced to shift to starlink. I mean, this is all still unfolding in real time. We're talking about billions of dollars in contracts to Starlink for private communications systems under the federal government, billions of dollars in contracts that went to Space X. We're talking about data that was leaked and downloaded into his AI system. So we don't even know the full scope of what he did in the damage that he did during his tenure. And we know that there's still dozens of Doge employees who are firmly implanted in these agencies, some of whom are still on his private payroll.
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Lawrence Tribe
As we go forward. Presumably if the Democrats win control of the House of Representatives next year, you'd then be in a position to finally conduct the real investigations about what Elon Musk has been doing.
- [45:01]
Melanie Stansberry
Yeah, I mean, these actual investigations are ongoing because there's so many court cases against what's going on. You know, it was just announced today that a judge was allowing a court case that's actually led by the Attorney General of New Mexico to continue because of the lawless way in which they've been conducting their activities under Doge. So I think it's going to take, frankly, not only many years to rebuild from the destruction that Elon Musk unleashed on the government, but to even understand what they did inside these agencies. And also, I mean, the impacts are still being felt to this day. Last night I was talking to a doctor here in New Mexico who said he can't renew his license to give prescriptions right now because Doge messed up the DEA website. So, I mean, Doge is still there, frankly, wreaking havoc on the federal government.
- [45:59]
Lawrence Tribe
Representative Melanie Stansberry, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
- [46:04]
Melanie Stansberry
Thanks so much.
- [46:05]
Lawrence Tribe
Thank you. We'll be right back. Representative Melanie Stansberry gets tonight's last word.
- [46:16]
Jen Psaki
Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis in anytime anywhere.
- [46:22]
Lawrence Tribe
All the stories that we're covering are.
- [46:24]
Rick Waldenberg
Live and happening as we speak.
- [46:27]
Jen Psaki
Watch your favorite shows live.
- [46:28]
Rick Waldenberg
What's happening right now is a hostile takeover of the US Government.
- [46:33]
Jen Psaki
Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app now@msnbc.com apparently.