Lawrence: It only takes one Republican vote to release the House Ethics report on Matt Gaetz

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Episode Title: It Only Takes One Republican Vote to Release the House Ethics Report on Matt Gaetz
Release Date: November 21, 2024
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell, MSNBC

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Introduction

In this episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves into the high-stakes political maneuvering surrounding the House Ethics Committee's investigation into former Congressman Matt Gaetz. Leveraging his extensive experience in political affairs and media production, O'Donnell provides an in-depth analysis of the potential implications of the committee's upcoming decisions.

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Background: House vs. Senate Powers

O'Donnell begins by highlighting the constitutional dynamics between the House of Representatives and the Senate:

Lawrence O'Donnell [02:00]: "In the culture of Capitol Hill, the House of Representatives suffers from a permanent and irreparable, actually a constitutional inferiority complex because the Senate has a superpower that the House of Representatives does not have."

He emphasizes that, historically, only the Senate holds the power to confirm presidential appointees, including cabinet members and federal judges, a privilege the House lacks. This sets the stage for understanding the unprecedented influence a single House member can now wield in the Ethics Committee's report on Matt Gaetz.

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The House Ethics Committee and Matt Gaetz's Nomination

O'Donnell explains the unique situation where the House Ethics Committee, traditionally seen as less powerful, now holds a pivotal role in determining the fate of Matt Gaetz's nomination for Attorney General. He outlines the committee's composition and voting dynamics:

Lawrence O'Donnell [04:34]: "All five Democrats on the House Ethics Committee will vote in favor of releasing the House Ethics Committee investigative report on former Congressman Matt Gaetz..."

The committee is evenly split between five Democrats and five Republicans. A pivotal moment occurs when a vote results in a 5-5 tie, effectively stalling the release of the report. This deadlock underscores the tension between party lines and the broader implications for Gaetz's nomination.

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Key Developments and Reactions

Susan Wild's Statement:

Susan Wild [04:34]: "To the extent that that suggests that the committee was in agreement or that we had a consensus on this, that is inaccurate."
(04:34)

Wild, the ranking member of the Ethics Committee, clarifies that there was no consensus to suppress the report, countering statements from Republican Chairman Michael Guest.

John Bresnahan's Reporting:

O'Donnell references John Bresnahan of Punchbowl News, who reports that the committee's vote to complete the report was a majority decision, not unanimous, indicating at least one Republican's support for proceeding.

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Guest Insights

Joel Leppert on Testimonies:

Joel Leppert [09:36]: "She was introduced to him. Representative Gates took her upstairs into a room and they had sex in one of the bedrooms upstairs."
(09:36)

Leppert, a lawyer representing witnesses in the investigation, details testimonies that expose Gaetz's illicit activities, including payments for sex with minors. These revelations are poised to dismantle Gaetz's nomination unless the Ethics Committee report is released.

Lawrence Tribe on Legal Implications:

Lawrence Tribe [35:19]: "It is a staggering argument... an argument that is so bizarre that I can't imagine even the current Supreme Court upholding it."
(35:19)

Harvard Law Professor Lawrence Tribe criticizes the Trump lawyers' attempt to dismiss guilty verdicts against Donald Trump by prioritizing election votes over jury decisions, labeling it a "nightmare" scenario undermining the justice system.

Senator Amy Klobuchar on Judicial Integrity:

Amy Klobuchar [28:06]: "It truly is... we have to see it."
(28:06)

Senator Klobuchar emphasizes the necessity of releasing the Ethics Committee report to maintain checks and balances, expressing concern over appointing Gaetz despite the ongoing investigations into his misconduct.

John Sandweg on Immigration Policy:

John Sandweg [42:16]: "Even if legally they were able to bypass the immigration courts... it's still a tremendously difficult task."
(42:16)

Former ICE Director John Sandweg addresses the feasibility of President Trump's aggressive border policies, highlighting resource limitations and the impracticality of completely sealing the border.

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Political Maneuvering and Future Implications

O'Donnell outlines the strategic moves by Republicans to suppress the Ethics Committee report, which contains damning evidence against Gaetz. He points out that releasing the report before the December 5 meeting could derail Gaetz's nomination, emphasizing that "the evidence in that report is not survivable by any presidential nominee."

He also discusses the Republican efforts to control the narrative and prevent the dissemination of critical information, noting the importance of one Republican vote in ultimately deciding the report's release.

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Concluding Remarks

As the episode nears its end, O'Donnell reiterates the precarious balance of power within Congress and the significant impact a single vote holds in high-profile ethical investigations. He underscores the critical nature of the upcoming December 5 vote, which could determine not only Matt Gaetz's future but also set a precedent for congressional accountability and bipartisan cooperation.

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Notable Quotes

• Lawrence O'Donnell [02:00]: "In the culture of Capitol Hill, the House of Representatives suffers from a permanent and irreparable, actually a constitutional inferiority complex because the Senate has a superpower that the House of Representatives does not have."
• Susan Wild [04:34]: "There was not an agreement by the committee to release the report."
• Lawrence Tribe [35:19]: "This is an argument that is so bizarre that I can't imagine even the current Supreme Court upholding it."
• Amy Klobuchar [28:06]: "We have to see it."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell provides a comprehensive examination of the intricate political maneuvers surrounding Matt Gaetz's nomination and the pivotal role of the House Ethics Committee. Through expert interviews and detailed analysis, O'Donnell sheds light on the broader implications for congressional ethics, the balance of power, and the integrity of political nominations in the United States.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Alex Wagner]

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[Susan Wild]

Good evening, Lawrence.

[Alex Wagner]

We're going to pick up that subject later in this hour with a former director of ICE during the Obama administration. It's that whole question of, okay, we know what Donald Trump is saying, but what is possible? How can you actually do this? How much of this can you do? I think those details are going to be increasingly important as before we get to January, it is so expensive, it is so complicated and it is so wrenching just in terms of our communities, our society. And then to say nothing of the legal, the legal challenges to all of this. I think it's really important that we get everybody clear on what the difference between what Trump's saying and what can actually be done. Yeah, we're going to try to do that tonight. Thanks, Alex. Have a good show. Thank you. In the culture of Capitol Hill, the House of Representatives suffers from a permanent and irreparable, actually a constitutional inferiority complex because the Senate has a superpower that the House of Representatives does not have. And that superpower is more powerful than the presidential power. When those two powers come into conflict over presidential appointments, only the United States Senate has the power to confirm presidential appointees. The House of Representatives has no vote on nominations to federal judgeships, including the Supreme Court. The House has no vote on nominations for cabinet positions. For 235 years, the House of Representatives has had to sadly and powerlessly sit by and watch across the campus as the United States Senate made the final decision about all of those presidential appointments to the cabinet, to the Supreme Court, to every federal judgeship. And now for the very first time in history, the most important vote in a confirmation process belongs to a member of the House of Representatives. It only takes one vote in the House of Representatives to destroy Matt Gaetz's nomination for Attorney General. Only five members of the House of Representatives have the power to cast that vote. They are the five Republican members of the House Ethics Committee. Unlike other House committees that are all heavily imbalanced in favor of the majority party, the House Ethics Committee membership is divided equally between the parties. Five Democrats and five Republicans. All five Democrats on the House Ethics Committee will vote in favor of releasing the House Ethics Committee investigative report on former Congressman Matt Gaetz when the committee meets again on December 5 after an apparently difficult meeting that the committee had today. After today's meeting, the Republican chairman of the committee said, quote, there was not an agreement by the committee to release the report. And that statement provoked this extraordinary scene in the hallway outside of the House Ethics Committee.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Good afternoon, everybody. I have just come. I'm Susan Wild. I'm the ranking member on the Ethics Committee. We just concluded a two hour meeting of the Ethics Committee and it was not my intention to make any comment. I walked out of this committee without making one and walked back to my office. But it has since come to my attention that in fact, we had agreed that we were not going to discuss what had transpired at the meeting. But it has come to my attention that the chairman has since betrayed the process by disclosing our deliberations within moments after walking out of the committee. And he has implied that there was an agreement of the committee not to disclose the report. That is an untrue. To the extent that that suggests that the committee was in agreement or that we had a consensus on that, that is inaccurate. And I will say that a vote was taken. As many of you know, this committee is evenly divided between Democrats and Republicans, five Dems, five Republicans, which means that in order to affirmatively move something forward, somebody has to cross party lines and vote with the other side, which happens a lot, by the way, and we often vote unanimously. That did not happen in today's vote. And I do not want the American public or anyone else to think that Mr. Guest's characterization of what transpired today would be some sort of indication that the committee had unanimity or consensus on this issue not to release the report. That would be an inaccurate portrayal and nobody should take that. From what they have heard so far, there was no consensus on this issue. We did agree that we would reconvene as a committee on December 5 to further consider this matter.

[Alex Wagner]

So that's the top Democrat on the House Ethics Committee, Susan Weil. And that scene in the hallway led to this response from the Republican chairman.

[Michael Guest]

She said the trade process, the trade.

[Alex Wagner]

Definition.

[Amy Klobuchar]

That'S her choice.

[Alex Wagner]

That's what she feels.

[Susan Wild]

And you can ask her if she.

[Alex Wagner]

Would like to come in. I made the only free statement that.

[John Sandweg]

I need to make on you today.

[Alex Wagner]

Which was the denomination. It's hard to find out what happens in closed door committee meetings like that. But what we have is John Bresnahan of Punchbowl News reporting, quote, ethics Committee held several votes. Ray Gates report released the report, which is not final yet, as is this, deadlocked on partisan lines. Committee then voted to complete report. This was a majority, but not unanimous. There will be another meeting in December. So if John Bresnahan's reporting is accurate, the committee voted 5 to 5, 5 Democrats versus 5 Republicans to release the report, with the Democrats voting in favor of releasing the report. A tie vote, and the Ethics Committee accomplishes nothing and does not move that issue forward. So that does not release the report. John Bresnahan reports that the committee then voted to complete the report and that that vote was a majority, but not a unanimous vote. And so what that means is at least one Republican voted with the Democrats to complete the report. It could also mean that more than one Republican voted to complete the report. It could mean that only one Republican voted against completing the report. When the committee meets again on December 5, the Gates report will presumably be completed and the Democrats will certainly call for another vote on releasing that report. And then perhaps one of the Republicans who voted today to complete the report might then vote to release the report. And so that Ethics committee vote on December 5th will be the decisive vote on Matt Gaetz nomination for Attorney General. If one Republican, just one Republican, votes to release that report. Because as you heard on this program last night, the evidence in that report is not survivable by any presidential nominee for any office at any point in the history of this country.

[Joel Leppert]

And she was invited to that party by Joel Greenberg, vis a vis her friend, who had met Joel Greenberg on seeking arrangements.

[Alex Wagner]

Joel Greenberg, who's now in prison.

[Joel Leppert]

That's correct, yeah. And when she arrived, she testified that she had sex with Representative Gates within minutes of arriving.

[Alex Wagner]

Within minutes of arriving.

[Joel Leppert]

Within minutes arriving, yes. She was introduced to him. Representative Gates took her upstairs into a room and they had sex in one of the bedrooms upstairs.

[Alex Wagner]

And was that a prearranged pay for sex encounter?

[Joel Leppert]

So that Situation was a situation that Joel Greenberg would have arranged ahead of time. There was no payment from Representative Gates at that particular time. My clients testified that the payments came later on at separate events.

[Alex Wagner]

And after that, in that setting. Is that when your client sees the 17 year old girl?

[Joel Leppert]

So it was at that same event back in July of 2017 at another time later on in the party. She was walking outside towards the pool area. She looked to her right and she saw her friend, who was 17 at the time, having sex with Representative Gates.

[Alex Wagner]

And your client knew that that girl is 17?

[Joel Leppert]

That's right. She was aware that her friend was under 17 as they went to high school together.

[Alex Wagner]

They went to high school together and that 17 year old was still in high school.

[Joel Leppert]

That's right.

[Alex Wagner]

The evidence in the Ethics Committee report will show that Matt Gaetz was paying for sex with multip. How much money was involved in the paying for sex with your two clients?

[Joel Leppert]

So when my clients testified to the House earlier this year, back in April and May, the House actually acquired records, presumably by subpoena, from Representative Gates. The amounts that were provided on the screen during their testimony by the House was from one client. It was over 6 in payments directly from Representative Gates to my client. And the other amount was a little over 4,000 directly from Representative Gates to my client.

[Alex Wagner]

So you're sitting there with your clients as they testify one at a time, and you discover then up on a screen in that hearing room that the Ethics Committee has all these Venmo payments and other forms of payment, electronic payment from Matt Gaetz to your client. They're just staring at the amount of money that he's paid them.

[Joel Leppert]

We were actually surprised because the numbers that we had thought was actually lower. The girls didn't of course, keep records. We were provided numbers in a civil related civil case that Representative Dorworth brought against Joel Greenberg and the Miner for defamation. And so we thought that number was actually lower. And the House investigation was much more thorough. And they uncovered payments that we were not aware of. And so we. So the investigation obviously was incredibly thorough. And so basically the House went through line by line and asked my clients, you know, what was this transaction for? What was that for? And kind of cross referenced their notes and looked at, okay, well, yes, this one was. This payment was the first sex on this event. This was for this particular event, and so on.

[Alex Wagner]

No nominee can survive that kind of evidence, that kind of testimony. That lawyer Joel Leppert represents only two of the witnesses who testified to the House Ethics Committee. But you know, that they were women in similar situations to your clients, women being paid for sex or involved in sex at these kinds of times.

[Joel Leppert]

I wasn't present for the testimony, but I have spoken with other lawyers, and that's my understanding.

[Alex Wagner]

No nomination can survive that kind of evidence provided under oath by those witnesses in a House Ethics Committee investigation. And so the Trump strategy for confirming Matt Gaetz is all about keeping that House Ethics Committee report hidden, never letting anyone see it. Everyone knows the day that committee report is released is the end of the Gates nomination. And so Donald Trump and Matt Gaetz are hoping that that day never comes. We now know that that day won't come before December 5th. And in the meantime, pieces of evidence from the committee investigation are emerging, including this graphic that the New York Times obtained that shows lines indicating payments made directly and indirectly to women for sex by Matt Gaetz and his best friend at the time, Joel Greenberg, who is now in federal prison after pleading guilty to sex trafficking as a result of the federal criminal investigation that produced that graphic and is represented in that actual graphic. The New York Times reports that the House Ethics Committee obtained that graphic and other evidence from the federal criminal investigation. Some of the other exhibits that were used in that federal criminal investigation, and that is that material from the federal investigation is no doubt included in the House Ethics Committee report that Donald Trump and Matt Gaetz and the Republican speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, are now desperately trying to suppress. And it just takes one vote, just one Republican member of the House Ethics Committee. And those members are Republican Chairman Michael Guest of Mississippi, Congressman David Joyce of Ohio, Congressman John Rutherford of Florida, Congressman Andrew Garbarino of New York, and Congresswoman Michelle Fischbach of Minnesota. It only takes one. One of them. New York Congressman Andrew Garbarino represents a heavily Republican area of Long Island.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Congressman Andrew Garbarino delivers for Long Island.

[John Sandweg]

A leader in the fight to restore.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Property tax deductions from Massapequa to Mastic. Andrew Garbarino gets stuff done for Long Island.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm Andrew Garbarino and I approve this message. Andrew Garbarino did not approve the messages that he discovered in the Ethics Committee investigation of his neighboring Republican congressman from Long Island, George Santos. On the day after the Ethics Committee released its report on George Santos, when Republican Ethics Committee Chairman Michael Guest filed a resolution to expel George Santos from the House of Representatives, Congressman Gaborino said, the Botox thing really did shock me. And also the immediate transfer of funds from one bank to another after he got people to donate. And also that money ended up in his Personal bank account. The Botox thing shocked him. The immediate transfer of funds shocked him. Imagine how shocked Congressman Andrew Garbarino was when he was looking at that FBI chart of the immediate transfer of funds from Matt Gaetz to the women represented in this chart who were being paid for sex in those transfers of funds. Congressman Andrew Garbarino didn't ask for this. He didn't ask for the superpower to destroy a nomination for Attorney General. No one gets elected to the House of Representatives and asks to be on the House Ethics Committee. Within the culture of the Congress, it is considered the least desirable assignment you can get. No one wants to police their colleagues, but someone has to do it. And the assignment usually goes to junior members like Andrew Garbarino who don't have the power or the seniority to get the more desirable committee assignments. That's how you end up on the Ethics Committee in Congress. But history has taken a turn in Andrew Garbarino's direction. And so he will decide on December 5 if the testimony about Matt Gaetz having sex with a 17 year old girl in the state of Florida where the age of consent is 18, is that more shocking to Andrew Garbarino than George Santos. Botox. On December 5, Andrew Garbarino can decide whether the immediate transfer of funds that Matt Gaetz was doing, as the evidence shows he was doing for sex, is more shocking to him than the immediate transfer of funds for self enrichment that George Santos was engaged in. Between now and December 5th, the pressure to release the Health Ethics Committee report will grow every day. It only takes one Republican vote on that committee to release that report. Just one vote. According to John Bresnahan's reporting about what happened in that secret meeting of the Ethics Committee today, at least one Republican voted against even completing the report. And if that reporting is true, there is at least one Republican who doesn't even want to complete the report. But it also means there is at least one Republican who does want to complete the report, who wants to do the right thing and complete the report. That Republican or those Republicans who voted today to complete the Ethics Committee report will on December 5th have the chance to decide whether to try to hide the Ethics Committee report forever from their constituents and from the country and from the United States Senate, or whether to show their work, show their work to the United States Senators who will have the final vote on whether Matt Gaetz will be the next Attorney General of the United States. Everyone knows. Everyone knows about Matt Gaetz. Oklahoma Senator Mark Wayne Mullen served in the House of Representatives with Matt Gaetz. Before moving up to the Senate, he has done a few interviews this week in which he has appeared to at first have opposed the Gates nomination and then suggested that his mind was still open on the nomination. And tonight, Senator Mullen is now quoted in the Washington Post saying, I think it's an extremely difficult path. In fact, I just don't see a path forward at this point. And here is what Senator Mullen said a year ago about Matt Gaetz.

[Susan Wild]

This is a guy that didn't have that the media didn't give a time of day to after he was accused of sleeping with an underage girl. And there's a reason why no one in the conference came and defended him. Because we had all seen the videos he was showing on the House floor that all, all of us had walked.

[Lawrence Tribe]

Away of the girls that he had slept with.

[Susan Wild]

He'd brag about how he would crush ed medicine and chase it with an energy drink so he could go all night. This is obviously before he got married. And so when that accusation came out, no one defended him.

[Alex Wagner]

Leading off our discussion tonight is Congressman Steve Cohen, Democrat of Tennessee. He's a former member of the House Ethics Committee and a current member of the House Judiciary Committee. Congressman Cohen, thank you very much for joining us tonight. And I just want to begin on that, that final point about everyone knows. Everyone knows about Matt Gaetz. Everyone in the House of Representatives knows about him. As we just heard from Senator Mullen, he has in effect self confessed on the floor of the House, according to what we just heard.

[Susan Wild]

Well, it was pretty well just noticed that he had shown pictures on the House floor of different girls. Now, there was nothing about the money. And there's other things in the report about misuse of powers, misuse of funds, mra, which is your congressional money being used for personal bases, and something about a bribe. I don't know what those are about. And I think that's something that needs to be looked at too, because those are awful activities for somebody who could be the Attorney General of the United States. And it also could be very illustrative to congresspeople about what the ethics require and what violations of ethics could take place. You know, I just don't know what exactly what it is, but it's a terrible situation. And there should be at least one of those. I think there's somebody other than on the Republican side. There could be a couple of people that could vote because there's some good people there that have values and they may rise to be a Jimmy Stewart.

[Alex Wagner]

Mr. Smith I think there's a lot of people listening to us right now who are pretty cynical or in their minds, realistic about the House of Representatives, the Senate now being so partisan that this is hopeless, that no Republican would ever vote against another Republican. But I've seen it. I've seen it in the United States Senate, certainly when I was working there, Republican senators on the Ethics Committee voting against Republican senators under investigation. You've seen it happen in the House of Representatives on that Ethics Committee. And so I believe that on December 5, there's a very strong chance that at least one of these Republicans on the Ethics Committee will vote to release that report.

[Susan Wild]

I think there is as well. I went to the floor the day after he announced Trump announced he was going to name Matt Gaetz and spoke on the floor for five minutes, which is what we were limited to about the need to release this report. It so happened that Mike guess, who was the chairman of the Ethics Committee, was the speaker pro tem that day. And I noticed that, and I kind of, in my remarks guided them towards him in the need and the importance for the respect of Congress to release the report. I saw him the next day in the gym and I talked to him about it, and he wasn't exactly sure where they're going to be. It sounded a little bit like he was considering the idea of giving it to the Senate. So I think there's a possibility. Mike did a good job on prosecuting Santos, but, you know, the House took about eight months to get rid of Santos, and he was just the most awful liar and thief that I guess we've had in the House. And there have been quite a few liars and thieves in the House.

[Alex Wagner]

And Congressman Gaborino and the other Republicans on Long island desperately wanted to get rid of Santos to get him out of their political lives on Long island so they could smoothly run for election. Congressman Steve Cohen, thank you very much for your expertise about the Ethics Committee. We're going to to need to hear from you as this proceeds. Thanks for joining us tonight.

[Susan Wild]

You're welcome, Lawrence.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, one Republican senator is suggesting that the Senate Judiciary Committee might subpoena the House Ethics Committee report on Matt Gaetz. Senate Judiciary Committee member Senator Amy Klobuchar will join our discussion next. It had to be you. Dang. You're not supposed to sound that good at karaoke. You've just only heard me sing all stuffed up with nasal polyps. But now I'm on this medicine and breathing better. So this is me with less congestion.

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[Alex Wagner]

Senate Democrats, led by Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, voted to confirm two more federal judges today after they were nominated by President Biden and approved by the Senate Judiciary Committee. And the New York Times is reporting tonight, quote, some Republican lawmakers like Senator John Cornyn of Texas have suggested that the Judiciary Committee, which has jurisdiction over Justice Department nominees, could subpoena the House committee if it did not willingly hand over the file. Joining our discussion now is Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. She's a member of the Judiciary Committee and chair of the Senate Rules Committee. She just won reelection to the Senate. Senator Klobuchar, you're so busy and we need your voice so much on this unfolding drama in your Judiciary Committee about Matt Gaetz. First of all, before we get to that, two more Biden judges confirmed today by the United States Senate. And that's the work of the Senate Judiciary Committee under the Democrats that has condemned continued.

[Amy Klobuchar]

It truly is. Lawrence and I will be presiding tonight at midnight. I assume you're going to be doing special coverage. Break in. People can watch it on C Span. Super exciting. We're going through the night. We have something like nine more on the dock tonight. Of course, they're making us wait through two hours each. Two hours each. Two hours each. But we are moving ahead. And we've got 220 some confirmed already. We've got 20 some left here. And it is so important, as I listen to your coverage, the horrific story of Matt Gaetz and how the House speaker and the House Ethics Committee will not allow. The Republicans on the committee clearly will not allow this report to be released. Well, checks and balances are, yes, the Senate and advice and consent, but checks and balances are also judges. And it is so important, important to put judges of integrity on the court. And we are devoted to getting this done.

[Alex Wagner]

It's Senator John Cornyn actually had a meeting with Matt Gaetz today who's been went around, by the way, did you see Matt Gaetz wandering the halls of the Senate trying to find Republican senators?

[Amy Klobuchar]

I did not. I saw J.D. vance, but I was not invited into the Strom Thurmond room where the meetings occurred.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, yeah, I know that. So that's the one they were using. Okay, so let's listen to this report from Senator Cornyn about his discussion with Matt Gaetz. Let's listen to this. Did the allegations come up at all or what?

[Michael Guest]

Did he, did he bring that up.

[Susan Wild]

Himself or did you bring that up?

[Alex Wagner]

Not. I just, all I said to him was the that there are not going to be any secrets here. Everything's eventually going to come out. And so I frankly said transparent currency is a good thing because these keep just dripping out a little at a time, then that's going to make things more difficult. Senator, it has to be bad news for Matt Gaetz that Senator John Cornyn is saying everything that every reasonable person would want him to say about this nomination. And he, as a Republican, has been insistent about demanding that House Ethics Committee report.

[Amy Klobuchar]

He is. Well, John Cornyn is a former prosecutor and I think he's speaking for a number of senators who maybe are being quieter about it on the Republican side. But we're literally a few blocks away. Hello. Could you just please give us that ethics report? Because otherwise we're going to use precious taxpayer money to recreate that report to get the documents, to get the witnesses. You just had very damning information on your show with one of the lawyers. We're going to get this information when we have Republicans and Democrats asking for it. And the question is, as Senator Cornyn said, are we going to get it all at once or are we going to have to re examine all of this and use FBI agents that should be out taking on crime, taking on the fentanyl rings. And this is exactly the agency, by the way, that they're going to put this man up, 115,000 frontline employees, prosecutors, federal agents, and we would have to install him into this job when he is clearly a subject of major investigations about sex trafficking, sex trafficking, illicit drug use, bribery or whatever. I don't want to. These are allegations. I want to see the report. But it is very clear when all these Republicans, even more than Democrats, have heard all of this information, we have to see it.

[Alex Wagner]

Senator Amy Klobuchar, thank you very much for joining us again tonight.

[Amy Klobuchar]

It was great to be on. See you at midnight.

[Alex Wagner]

I'll be watching. Thank you, Senator. Coming up today, Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyers told a judge that the votes Donald Trump got in the presidential election are more important than the unanimous guilty votes Donald Trump got from a criminal jury in New York. Harvard Law professor Lawrence Tribe joins us next.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Hey, I'm Yara Shahidi and I'm the host of the Optimist Project.

[Alex Wagner]

This is the podcast that asks what gives you hope.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Each week I sit down with changemakers you may or may not know from.

[Alex Wagner]

Comedy, music, academia and more, to uncover what inspires them to create a better tomorrow. Join us as we find out ways that we can cultivate optimism in our own lives. You can find the Optimist project wherever.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Alex Wagner]

Don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode. First and foremost, the thing that powers your business is power. And when it comes to power, Ford Pro has options. Now, scratch that, we've got every option. Diesel, gas, hybrid and all electric. Plus they're all connected, so you're always.

[John Sandweg]

In the driver's seat.

[Alex Wagner]

The power is yours. Visit fordpro.com today to learn more.

[John Sandweg]

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[Alex Wagner]

Today, Donald Trump's lawyers told a judge in Manhattan that the 34 guilty verdicts against Donald Trump earlier this year should now be dismissed simply because the vote in the presidential election is more important than the jury vote. In that case, the unanimous jury vote, Trump's criminal defense lawyers, who have both been chosen by Donald Trump for the number two and number three positions in the Justice Department next year, told the judge in the case, quote, On November 5, 2024, the nation's people issued a mandate that supersedes the political motivations of the district attorney of New York's people. This case must be immediately dismissed. Our next guest then said that new argument treats the presidency as a crime laundering device rather than an office dedicated to the service of the American people. Joining us now is Professor Lawrence Tribe, who has taught Constitutional Law at Harvard Law School for five decades. Professor Dreib, I have a feeling you have a very bad grade to issue on that particular argument by the Trump criminal defense lawyers.

[Lawrence Tribe]

It is a staggering argument. Much as I disagreed with the Supreme Court's earlier decision granting almost absolute immunity to Donald Trump and any president for actions taken within the boundaries of his office, at least one could understand what the court was trying to do there. It was trying to give presidents an incentive to go as far as their office reaches without worrying about being prosecuted for things they do in their official capacity. One can understand that although there are very powerful arguments about the danger of giving that kind of immunity to a president, what is impossible to understand is the idea that somebody who is convicted of felonies involving the manipulation of the election that put him in office and an additional felony for trying to cover up those crimes, that such a person can then get out of jail free card by getting elected president. Again, think of what that means. Suppose that Donald Trump had hired a hitman to go after Stormy Daniel. It wasn't hush money. He wanted to have her eliminated and he had her shot, let's say, on Fifth Avenue. And then after he left office, having secured the office by eliminating possibly embarrassing information, after he left office, he was prosecuted for murder in the state of New York. His new claim is that prosecution for murder would have to go away if I am again elected president. That's astonishing. People may have voted for him because they were upset by the price of eggs or because they wanted to go after immigrants or for any of a number of reasons, but they surely were not voting to give him a pass through the criminal justice system. So this is an argument that is so bizarre that I can't imagine even the current Supreme Court upholding it. I expect that argument will go down in flames. Certainly think it should. And it's important over time, not just because of what happens to Donald Trump. We really don't want a system of government in which you can commit crimes in order to become president, then serve a term as president, and then if you're elected again, completely wipe out the record and give yourself a complete pass. That's why I said that this argument amounts to making the presidency a crime laundering operation. I think it's an argument too far, and it really does underscore how bizarre the arguments that are being made on Mr. Trump's behalf have become.

[Alex Wagner]

So here's another disturbing element of that argument. The two lawyers who made that argument in writing are going to go into the Trump Justice Department the lead criminal defense lawyer, Todd Blanch. Donald Trump is going to nominate for deputy attorney general. He'll have a confirmation hearing. Emil Bove is the other attorney of record in that case who's on this pleading. He's going to be the principal assistant deputy attorney general. And so this kind of legal advice will now be in the Trump Justice Department. Right.

[Lawrence Tribe]

But we don't have to worry about that because Matt Goetz will supervise them. That is our guardian of justice. The whole thing is too scary to make up. It's sort of a nightmare. But it's a nightmare that we are living through. And I think we have to be very careful not to take for granted the idea that it will all just go away. We have to resist it at every step.

[Alex Wagner]

Professor Lawrence Tribe, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight.

[Lawrence Tribe]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[Alex Wagner]

Thank you. And coming up with Donald Trump threatening mass deportations will be joined next by John Sandweg. He is the former acting director of Immigration and Customs Enforcement in the Obama administration. He can tell us what is possible and what might not be possible in what Donald Trump is threatening to do. We'll be right back. Donald Trump has selected Stephen Miller to return to the White House to serve in essentially the same role he played in the first Trump White House, this time with the title deputy chief of staff for policy. Yesterday, Stephen Miller described day one of the next Trump administration this way. Quote, he will immediately sign executive orders sealing the border shut, beginning the largest deportation operation in American history, finding the criminal gangs, rapists, drug dealers and monsters that have murdered our citizens and sending them home. No one will be allowed to enter the country illegally. And ICE will be empowered in partnership with FBI, dea, ATF and the National Guard to fully seal and secure the border. Joining our discussion now is John Sandweg, who served as former acting director of U.S. immigration and Customs Enforcement in the Obama administration. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. I want to begin with this issue, this rhetoric of sealing the border absolutely shut. And I think some people or many people, millions of people who voted for Donald Trump think that on day one, that's it, nothing crosses the southern border at all. When in fact, we know there will be thousands of people legally driving across the southern border, legally walking across the southern border. And then there will also, there's never been a day where someone hasn't found their way across that border, that couple of thousand mile border, illegally cross that border.

[Michael Guest]

Yeah, Lawrence, look, I mean, the sealing the border is impossible, right? What we want to do is make sure that we have our hands on the ability to apprehend and interdict threats who cross the border. But of course, the challenge has been over the last few years, the large number of asylum claims we're seeing at the border. So first and foremost, I'm not sure what their plan is to deal with that. The biggest challenge there, as I've often said, is the immigration courts, right? Under long standing US Law, before you can be deported after making an asylum claim, you're entitled to a full and fair hearing before an immigration judge. The problem has been we've never financed the immigration courts anywhere near the demand that's placed on them. So we have about 700, 800 immigration judges today facing 3 million, a backlog of 3 million cases. So I think what's really a lot of this talk about the Alien Enemies act and these other things really are attempts to bypass those immigration courts so that they can have the legal, the capacity to deport people on this proverbial day one. But look, I'll tell you one other thing, that even if legally they were able to bypass the immigration courts and get orders of removal that would allow them to deport people back to their home country, it's still a tremendously difficult task for which the department, frankly, is just under resourced for today.

[Alex Wagner]

Let's talk about the deportation and let's for the moment just leave out the fact that people will still be coming across that border every day. But the Trump administration and Donald Trump has told his voters all year that in effect, he knows where these people are. He first of all knows exactly where to go to get them, apprehend them and somehow deport them. What is actually involved in if, let's just take a theoretical example that you suspect in that car wash on Ventura Boulevard in Los Angeles or somewhere in California, there might be some people working there who are undocumented, who can go there with what badges and do what and what happens to those people and how quickly can they be sent across the border?

[Michael Guest]

Well, Lawrence, first of all, you got to put this in perspective. So ICE has about a $9 billion budget right now of which some of those resources are dedicated to, importantly national security and public safety, criminal investigations, but also about 7,000 ERO officers, officers who are dedicated to enforcing the immigration laws. And I think just if you want to look really at 2019, Trump's last year before COVID the middle of his administration, ice only arrested 144,000 people. That year, only 123,000 of those people have been charged with or convicted of a Criminal offense. So to begin with, I'll just say that there are nowhere near enough resources to kind of be able to do the numbers that he's talking about. Now, I do anticipate they're going to do some things that we've seen in the past. That is what are called 287 agreements. They're trying to sign up state and local law enforcement and turn them into immigration officers. He may pull from other federal agencies. And of course, when you do that, that you're pulling officers off, let's say, expert control investigations or special agents who are investigating child exploitation now, putting them on the immigration beat. So there's a cost to national security and public safety when you do that. But even if he kind of marshals all of those resources, there's really no way he can get to the numbers he's talking about. That said, of course, though, they can do some things that are very disruptive, that don't really promote public safety. I think that's the most important point. These aren't targeted surgical operations. The kind of things they're talking about. They keep saying we're gonna get the criminal and the murderers off the streets, but, you know, that requires a more investigative approach that results in a lower number of apprehensions, but of a much higher quality. I think if you want to get these numbers, you know, you're looking at things like you said, workplace raids where you go to low wage types of employment, operations where you're likely to find migrants. But the migrants you find there are not the criminal gang members who are convicted felons. They're the ones who are trying to support their family. By nature, you find very little criminals there.

[Alex Wagner]

John Sandwich, thank you very much for joining us on this important issue tonight. Thank you. Tonight's last word is next. Today, President Joe Biden awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom to former Planned Parenthood President Cecile Richards. In a private ceremony, Cecile Richards has revealed that she is suffering from an aggressive form of brain cancer, the same cancer that President Biden's son Beau suffered from. Today, President Biden said this about Cecile. With absolute courage, she fearlessly leads us forward to be the America we say we are. A nation of freedom. Through her work to lift up the dignity of workers, defend and advance women's reproductive rights and equality, and mobilize Americans to exercise their power to vote. She has carved and inspiring legacy that is tonight's last word. First and foremost, the thing that powers your business is power. And when it comes to power, Ford Pro has options. Now, scratch that we've got every option. Diesel, gas, hybrid, and all electric. Plus they're all connected, so you're always in the driver's seat. The power is yours. Visit FordPro.com today to learn more.