← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Lawrence: Kamala Harris was the personification of the return of the peaceful transfer of power
00:39:42
Tonight on The Last Word: Donald Trump’s lawyers try to stop the release of Jack Smith’s report. Also, a New York judge denies Trump’s bid to delay his sentencing on Friday. And former Capitol police condemn Trump’s January 6 pardon pledge. Sen. Adam Schiff, Andrew Weissmann, fmr. Officer Harry Dunn, and fmr. Sgt. Aquilino Gonell join Lawrence O’Donnell.
Loading summary
Transcript71 lines
- [00:00]
Dr. Horton
Now is your time to get into a new Dr. Horton home by taking advantage of their national Red Tag sales event going on right now through January 19th. Stop by any of their participating communities and find select red tag homes at incredible Pricing. So whether you're buying your first home or looking for an upgrade, you don't want to miss the red tag sales event going on right now. Discover the Dr. Horton difference at Dr. Horton.com that's Dr. Horton.com drop Dr. Horton America's builder and equal Housing Opportunity Builder.
- [00:33]
Ted Danson
Hey friends, Ted Danson here and I want to let you know about my new podcast. It's called Where Everybody Knows yous Name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes doing this podcast is a chance for me and my good bud Woody to reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years ago. Plus, we're introducing each other to the friends we've met since, like Jane Fonda, Conan O'Brien, Eric Andre, Mary Steenburgen, my wife, and Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And trust me, it's always a great hang when Woody's there. So why wait? Listen to where everybody knows your name wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:13]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Well, the most important news of the day before what we just learned about the Jack Smith Report, and possibly still the most important news of the day, is the simple fact that no supporters of Kamala Harris attacked the Capitol today to try to prevent the counting of electoral votes. That is something that happens only on the other side of our politics and only with a very tiny, tiny percent of Trump supporters. Democrats have never done it, never attacked the Capitol. Republicans did it once four years ago and so we can reset the clock on peaceful transfer of power. We are now in the midst of our very first peaceful transfer of power since our only violent transfer of power four years ago. We moved from presidency to presidency for 232 years before Donald Trump became the first president to actively disrupt the peaceful transfer of power by telling his supporters to go to the Capitol and fight like hell. Donald Trump faced a federal indictment that Jack Smith has written a report about for his conduct on January 6 and for his weeks of criminal conduct leading up to that day. According to the indictment returned against him by a grand jury and pursued by Special Counsel Jack Smith, who has now summarized that case and those findings in his report. What is reported to be tonight in the breaking news of the night, a two volume report written by Jack Smith that the Trump lawyers are now desperately trying to block from ever becoming public. The Justice Department and Jack Smith withdrew that prosecution of Donald Trump for his activities on January 6, when Donald Trump won the presidential election. Because of a Justice Department policy to not prosecute current presidents of the United States, those charges could. They could be filed again against Donald Trump when he is no longer president. When future historians read that indictment, and if they get to read the Jack Smith report, this is what they will find.
- [03:39]
Unnamed Speaker
The president bears responsibility for Wednesday's attack on Congress by mob rioters. He should have immediately denounced the mob.
- [03:47]
Aquino Gunnell
When he saw what was unfolding.
- [03:49]
Unnamed Speaker
These facts require immediate action by President Trump, except his share of responsibility, quell the brewing unrest and ensure President Elect Biden is able to successfully begin his term.
- [04:05]
Lawrence O'Donnell
There's no question, none, that President Trump.
- [04:09]
Unnamed Speaker
Is practically and morally responsible for provoking.
- [04:16]
Lawrence O'Donnell
The events of the day. No question about it. The people who stormed this building believed.
- [04:24]
Unnamed Speaker
They were acting on the wishes and instructions of their president.
- [04:32]
Lawrence O'Donnell
That is what the Republican leadership of Congress thought and said four years ago. Donald Trump was responsible. Now, Republicans want you to forget all of that. In an op ed piece in the Washington Post today, President Biden wrote, quote, we should commit to remembering January 6, 2021, every, every year to remember it as a day when our democracy was put to the test and prevailed. To remember that democracy, even in America, is never guaranteed. The one thing, the one thing that we thought was guaranteed about government in America was democracy. And now we know better. Now we have the proof in the last two January 6th, that one party respects democracy, win or lose, and one party does not. The particulars of what we saw today we have seen only a couple of times before. It has occurred only three times in the lifetimes of even the most senior viewers of this program. The current Vice president who ran for president and lost presiding over the Electoral College count in Congress on January 6th. Vice President Richard Nixon had to do that on January 6th, 1961, when he lost to President John F. Kennedy.
- [06:08]
Adam Schiff
Members of the Congress. The state of the vote for President of the United States as delivered to the President of the Senate is as follows. The whole number of electors appointed to vote for President of the United States is 537, of which a majority is 269. John F. Kennedy of the state of Massachusetts has received for President of The United States 303 votes. Richard M. Nixon of the state of California has received 219 votes. Harry F. Byrd of the state of Virginia has received 15 votes.
- [06:44]
Lawrence O'Donnell
The first time most of us saw this process was on January 6, 2001, when the candidate who got the most votes for President, Al Gore, had to preside over an Electoral College count that would give the presidency to Republican George W. Bush. The state of the vote for President of the United States as delivered to the President of the Senate is as the whole number of the electors appointed to vote for President of the United States is 538, of which a majority is 270. George W. Bush of the state of Texas has received for President of The United States 271 votes. Al Gore of the state of Tennessee and has received 266 votes. It doesn't get closer than that. It was an agonizing loss for Al Gore. No matter what you thought of Al Gore, you couldn't help but admire him more after he was then forced by oath of office to perform the most difficult official duty a Vice President can carry out. It was Kamala Harris turn today. There are now exactly two people in the world who know what it feels like to do that as Vice President. With the whole world watching Al Gore and Kamala Harris, there is no greater professional loss than the loss of a presidential campaign. There is nothing bigger on this earth that you can compete for. And so there is no more difficult defeat to bear. In politics, defeat is one of the most important public tests of character. Donald Trump failed that test more miserably four years ago than any politician in American history. Today, the Vice President of the United States, to the surprise of no one, handled her duty with grace and dignity and with a frequent smile. Kamala Harris was on this day in American history, the personification of the return of the peaceful transfer of power. It was in her role as the top Democrat on the Senate Rules Committee that Senator Amy Klobuchar shared the duty with the new Republican chair of that committee and Republican and Democratic members of the House of reading the electoral vote tallies in individual states to the Congress. Four years ago, Republican Senators and Republican members of the House objected to the vote tallies that today were received as routine.
- [09:35]
Kamala Harris
Madam President, the certificate of the electoral vote of the State of Arizona seems to be regular in form and authentic. And it appears therefrom that Donald J. Trump of the State of Florida received 11 votes for president and J.D. vance of the state of Ohio received 11 votes for vice President.
- [10:03]
Lawrence O'Donnell
It was so routine and back to normal and good natured Today that Senator J.D. vance knowingly or absentmindedly found himself clapping even for states. Kamala Harris won.
- [10:19]
Kamala Harris
Madam President, the certificate of the electoral vote of the state of Minnesota seems to be regular in form and authentic. And it appears therefrom that Kamala D. Harris of the state of California received 10 votes for president, and Tim Walls of the state of Minnesota received 10 votes for vice president.
- [10:40]
Dr. Horton
It.
- [10:46]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And that's the way it's supposed to be. And that's the way it was every time. Every single time. Except once. The time Donald Trump tried to stop the count with the help of a Trump mob attacking the Capitol. An attack that Donald Trump watched on television in the small presidential dining room off the Oval Office and did not nothing as President of the United States, commander in Chief to stop the attack on the Capitol. 187 minutes of doing absolutely nothing was proved by the January 6th committee's investigation of Donald Trump. The one thing Donald Trump continued to do on January 6th was try to change the minds of Republican senators so that they would vote against certifying Joe Biden's win four years later. A half hour before the congressional session began today, the President of the United States was on his way out of town to New Orleans to grieve with the people there who lost loved ones in a terrorist attack that killed 14 people, carried out by a former sergeant in the United States Army.
- [11:58]
Unnamed Speaker
I know it's been five days staring at that empty chair in the kitchen, around the kitchen table, not hearing the voice. You think of the birthdays, the anniversaries, the holidays to come without them. You think of everything. Everyday things, the small things, the details you'll miss the most. The morning coffee you share together, the bend of his smile, the perfect pitch of her laugh. Rest of America has learned about them as well. Students who dreamed of becoming engineers and nurses, star athletes who worked on Wall street or helped coach small children, warehouse managers, bluegrass fan, cook, engaged to be married, single mom, just promoted at work and teaching her young son to read. They came from different states, even different country. There were children at dinner with their parents, ensuring before joining their friends on New Year's Eve. Some even ran toward the chaos try to help save others. We remember them hours before.
- [13:28]
Lawrence O'Donnell
The President spoke today in New Orleans at the Capitol when all the electoral votes were tallied. Today, the Vice President of the United States played her part in the peaceful transfer of power.
- [13:43]
Kamala Harris
The state of the vote for the President of the United States as delivered to the President of the Senate is as follows. The whole number of the electors appointed to vote for President of the United States is 538. Within that whole number, the majority is 270. The votes for President of the United States are as Donald J. Trump of the state of Florida has received 312 votes. Kamala D. Harris. Kamala D. Harris of the State of California has received 226 votes. The whole number of electors appointed to vote for Vice President of the United States is 538. Within that whole number, a majority is 270. The votes for Vice President of the United States are as follows. J.D. vance of the state of Ohio has received 312 votes. Tim Walz of the State of Minnesota has received 226 votes. This announcement of the State of the vote by the President of the Senate shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons elected President and Vice President of the United States, each for a term beginning on the 20th day of January, 2025, and shall be entered together with the list of the votes on the journals of the House and the Senate. Thank you very of the joint Senate having been concluded, pursuant to Senate Concurrent resolution number two, the 119th Congress, the chair declares this joint session dissolved. Thank you.
- [17:13]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And so, for the first time since Barack Obama was President of the United States, the President of the United States today did nothing to try to stop the peaceful transfer of power. For the first time since Barack Obama was President, the President of the United States today did nothing on January 6th that would get him impeached a week later in the House of Representatives. In his article in the Washington Post today, President Biden wrote, for much of our history, this proceeding was treated as pro forma, a routine act. But after what we all witnessed on January 6, 2021, we know we can never again take it for granted. Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Senator Adam Schiff of California. He served on the January 6 committee and was the lead impeachment manager for the first impeachment trial of Donald Trump. Senator Schiff, thank you very much for joining us on this important night. I'd like to begin with the breaking news of the night that I discussed with Rachel at the beginning of this hour, and that is Donald Trump's lawyers attempting to block what is apparently a two volume report by Jack Smith on the special prosecutor's investigations of Donald Trump. As you know, the precedent for special counsel's report of this kind is for them to be publicly released. With your own experience As a former U.S. attorney federal prosecutor, what is your reaction to the Trump lawyers trying to block this report?
- [18:50]
Adam Schiff
Well, I suppose at one level, it's not surprising that they should try. They have no shortage of chutzpah of nerve. But for the Attorney General to grant it, I think would be indefensible for the reasons that you mentioned. Historically, these reports are made public. These reports and the investigation underlying them are funded with taxpayer dollars. And the public has a right to know. It is astonishing to me as we sit here, Lawrence, the crime was committed four years ago, and in four years time, the Justice Department could not bring that offense to trial, not as against the main perpetrator in Donald Trump. If the attorney general were to decide here to allow this report to be buried, the lack of justice would be followed with a lack of any kind of accountability by the Department of Justice for those most responsible for inciting that violence. So I think it would be indefensible. I'm not surprised, I suppose, that they're trying. And it is again another shock that the criminal defense lawyers for President Trump who are representing him will be effectively running the Justice Department shortly. So unless this is made public and made public very soon, it will be buried. And as you pointed out earlier in your show, this case can be brought once again once the president is out of office. Nothing precludes that from happening. Whether it will or not may be another question. But nevertheless, allowing this report to be buried, particularly when there's so much effort at revisionist history, would be just indefensible.
- [20:27]
Lawrence O'Donnell
It took you, the House of Representatives, a week after January 6th to impeach Donald Trump, to investigate what Donald Trump had done leading up to January 6th, and to vote for impeachment, which is to say, send it to the United States Senate for a trial. So apparently for you in the House, that's how clear this evidence was to you, as we just heard from Kevin McCarthy, without a doubt.
- [20:56]
Adam Schiff
And as you played earlier in the segment, it was pretty clear to Kevin McCarthy, it was pretty clear to Mitch McConnell. Now, they wouldn't vote to impeach because I think, as Leader McConnell said at the time, there were other remedies they considered more appropriate, that is prosecution. Well, the prosecution didn't go forward in those four years, but we still have the prospect of at least some accountability coming from the Justice Department in this lengthy report. And the public ought to see it, the public ought to read it. We should be aware of all the facts in it. Because, you know, one of the concerns I think those of US on the January 6th committee have is if that report doesn't see the light of day, and even if it does, there may very well be an effort within the new leadership of the department to make some of the evidence go away. If they have the ability to do it. The best way to prevent that from happening is to make it public.
- [21:50]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Well, I mean, these, the Trump, defense lawyers going into the Justice Department where they'll be able to just, you know, do whatever they want with this evidence. It raises the possibility of them actually destroying the entire file and if necessary, being pardoned by Donald Trump for doing that.
- [22:11]
Adam Schiff
Well, that is certainly very possible. And I would hope that the Justice Department, in addition to publishing this report, is taking whatever steps it can take to give legal protection to that evidence, the evidence that they have gathered, whether that means providing that evidence to the archives or making some other public record of it so that it can be preserved, use of the grand jury to do so, whatever the mechanism may be to protect that evidence, that is to raise the bar for those who might otherwise seek to bury or destroy it. The department should be undertaking those steps.
- [22:48]
Lawrence O'Donnell
President Biden is arguing today in his op ed piece that the date January 6 should take its place in infamy every bit as much as December 7 did when Pearl harbor was attacked September 11, that it is a date that America needs to remember and remember every year because we came so close to losing a Democratic outcome in the last presidential election.
- [23:16]
Adam Schiff
I think that's exactly right. And those iconic images of people climbing on the Capitol, attacking the Capitol that day should never be far from our recollection. Today was most remarkable, Lawrence, in just how unremarkable it was. The joint session took around 30 minutes and 1/2 hour. That's all it took to go through the states to read the electoral counts. The vice president, as you said, and I think you used the two words that were most apropos today, with dignity and grace, performed her responsibility. It was remarkable and how unremarkable the process was. And it had been unremarkable for decades, indeed for centuries, except for the fact that it was taking place. But now, in the wake of the January 6th attack four years ago, this date has great significance. And as the president reminded us, President Biden reminded us in that op ed, we realized that as pro forma as it may seem, none of it can be taken for granted because we saw four years ago how very easily it could be taken away.
- [24:28]
Lawrence O'Donnell
California Senator Adam Schiff, thank you very much for starting off our discussion tonight.
- [24:33]
Adam Schiff
Thanks, Lawrence.
- [24:35]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And coming up, as promised, Andrew Weissman, former federal prosecutor, will be here to join us on the breaking news coverage of Donald Trump's lawyers trying to block the release of Jack Smith's report. We'll be right back with Andrew Weisman.
- [24:52]
Dr. Horton
Now is your time to get into a new Dr. Horton home by taking advantage of their national red tag sales event going on right now through January 19th. Stop by any of their participating communities and find select red tag homes at incredible Pricing. So whether you're buying your first home or looking for an upgrade, you don't want to miss the red tag sales event going on right now. Discover the Dr. Horton difference@drhorton.com that's drhorton.com Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal Housing opportunity builder.
- [25:25]
Ted Danson
Hey friends. Ted Danson here and I want to let you know about my new podcast. It's called Where Everybody Knows yous Name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes doing this podcast is a chance for me and my good bud Woody to reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years ago. Plus, we're introducing each other to the friends we've met since since like Jane Fonda, Conan O'Brien, Eric Andre, Mary Steenburgen, my wife, and Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And trust me, it's always a great hang when Woody's there, so why wait? Listen to where everybody knows your name wherever you get your podcasts.
- [26:05]
Unnamed Speaker
Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight. Today at Greenlight.com podcast.
- [26:36]
Lawrence O'Donnell
We continue our breaking news coverage of Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyers trying to block the release of Jack Smith's report. In a letter to Attorney General Merrick Garland with the title Draft Final Report by Jack Smith, it says, dear Attorney General Garland, we write on behalf of President Trump to demand that Smith terminate all efforts toward the preparation and release of this report. Twelve pages later, the lawyers say, given the status of Smith and his team as the inauguration approaches, using additional taxpayer resources to prepare, review and disseminate a report is not a legitimate use of taxpayer funds. Even if there were a valid appropriation here, which there is not, Smith's proposed plan for releasing a report is unlawful, undertaken in bad faith, and contrary to the public interest. Joining us now on this breaking news coverage is Andrew Weisman, former FBI general counsel, former chief of the Criminal Division in the Eastern District of New York. He's an MSNBC legal analyst. Andrew, I'm going right to the last question. Are we going to see this report?
- [27:42]
Unnamed Speaker
I think we will. I think the key thing to keep your eye on is in addition to this letter to Merrick Garland that I'm less concerned about, they have made a motion to Judge Cannon that is. And some people might be going, how can they make a motion to Judge Cannon? Because Donald Trump is no longer a defense defendant there, but the two remaining defendants, who are remaining defendants just until January 20th. Because we all know on January 20th the current president at that time is going to say dismiss the whole case completely. But the current two defendants, the former co defendants of Donald Trump, have made a motion to Judge Cannon to block the release, saying in essence this would harm them in terms of the fairness of their trial. Judge Cannon, wild card because she is yet to rule in some substantive way for the government. And so that's where I think we could see action by her and by the 11th Circuit. That's where I think the real issue is.
- [28:44]
Lawrence O'Donnell
So it does seem possible that Judge Cannon, because those two defendants still remain, could easily order this report not to be made public.
- [28:53]
Unnamed Speaker
Absolutely. And if she waits long enough, it could essentially be hard for the government to get to the 11th Circuit to reverse her to do, to say that it's wrong. So, you know, she could issue this on the 19th or the 20th. So that's the problem. Now, technically, she really shouldn't have jurisdiction over anything in the report that's unrelated to the two existing defendants. And I am pretty confident that this report is the kind of thing that would be sanitized. I'm just thinking of what we did in the, the Mueller report, where we actually did have pending defendants and we made sure, or people under investigation and we made sure that their names were not in the report. So it'll be hard to see how she's going to sort of cobble that together. But she's figured out ways in the past to.
- [29:42]
Lawrence O'Donnell
So it's referred to as a two volume report, presumably one about January 6th in Washington, the other one about Florida and documents and on and on the documents portion of that report. Your supposition about the professional way to do this, knowing that you have two defendants remaining in court, is to make sure there's nothing in the Florida version part of the report that could prejudice those defendants.
- [30:10]
Unnamed Speaker
Right now that could be tricky because, you know, it's hard to talk about this because they have a role in it. So that's where I think that Judge Cannon could have some leeway to sort of deal with that issue. But it shouldn't affect the part of the report on the January 6th case because that's not before her. And there's nothing about those two CO defendants that should relate to the January 6, you know, part of the report.
- [30:36]
Lawrence O'Donnell
I mean, it may be that these are two completely separate documents specifically because of this possibility.
- [30:43]
Ted Danson
Yeah.
- [30:43]
Unnamed Speaker
And because there are two very different parts that he investigated. January 6th and the Mar A Lago classified documents.
- [30:50]
Lawrence O'Donnell
So, I mean, they're. I was gonna say it would be inconceivable, but this is Judge Cannon to reach across outside of her case to this other case, the January 6th case in Washington, and try to block that document if it is a document that is completely separate from the other one.
- [31:09]
Unnamed Speaker
That is true. But just remember, Judge Cannon was reversed not once but twice by the 11th Circuit for things that you and I were sitting at this des, you know, not that long ago, I think it's inconceivable.
- [31:21]
Lawrence O'Donnell
It does seem highly likely as we sit here that Judge Cannon is absolutely going to order or the blocking of the release of at least the Florida part of the report and possibly the entire thing if it is somehow bound together and she doesn't care if you go, you know, the 11th Circuit to appeal it. Can Merrick Garland release it right now, now that it's been brought into contention in court with Judge Cannon, does that mean that they, the Justice Department, cannot release it because there's a pending court decision about it?
- [31:56]
Unnamed Speaker
The technical answer to your question is no, there's no order right now. But that would be unseemly. That is not something that they would do when there's at this, right at.
- [32:08]
Lawrence O'Donnell
This juncture, we're up against the gentleman way to do things in legal practice.
- [32:15]
Unnamed Speaker
That's true.
- [32:16]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And one side is trapped in that, and the other side's never heard of it. All right, we're gonna squeeze in a quick commercial break. We're gonna be right back with more on the breaking news that Donald Trump's legal team is trying to block the release of Jack Smith's report. And also, a judge today denied Donald Trump's appeal trying to block his sentencing date Friday in Manhattan. We'll be right back with both of those stories.
- [32:45]
Ted Danson
Hey, friends, Ted Danson here. And I want to let you know about my new podcast. It's called where everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes doing this podcast is a chance for me and my good bud Woody to reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years ago. Plus, we're introducing each other to the friends we've met since, like Jane Fonda, Conan O'Brien, Eric Andre Mary Steenburgen, my wife and Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And trust me, it's always a great hang when Woody's there. So why wait? Listen to where everybody knows your name. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [33:25]
Unnamed Speaker
Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight today@greenlight.com podcast.
- [33:53]
Dr. Horton
It's time to have your high five moment with High Five Casino, the top social casino where the action and real prizes never stop. Fun spins and big wins are right at your fingertips. With over a thousand games, including High Five Casino exclusives, High Five Casino is always free to play with free coins given out every four hours. Sign up today for a free welcome offer that can get you spinning and winning right away. Visit high5casino.com high5casino no purchase necessary. Void where prohibited by law. Must be 21 years or older. Terms and conditions apply.
- [34:27]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Andrew Weissman is back with us on the breaking news of the hour that Donald Trump's criminal defense team is trying to block the release of Jack Smith's investigative report of his investigations of January 6 and his investigation of Donald Trump's possession of classified documents at his Florida home. Andrew, there was another very important legal development today in Manhattan where a judge denied Donald Trump's appeal of the judge's order that he be sentenced on Friday of this week. He said, you know, Donald Trump has to show up or he could appear virtually now that he's president elect so he could come in over zoom or something. What's the status of that? And is Donald Trump going to be sentenced on Friday?
- [35:11]
Unnamed Speaker
We don't. So you keep on asking these questions where I'm like, I don't know. Here's the status, though. So Judge Merchan has on the same day that the papers were filed, he has heard from the da he has heard from Trump. And Trump said, can you issue a quick decision? And he did. Denied. And so Donald Trump's next move, which he's already taken, is to get appellate review. And so he is going to the New York State courts to get appellate review. That's his right to seek review to see if they will stop the sentencing from going forward. I wouldn't be surprised if he does not get relief from the New York courts that we're going to see this going. Yes. To the Supreme Court, all in a.
- [35:58]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Matter of days before 9:00am on, on Friday, first day everywhere. Again, an unprecedented move trying to take a simple sentencing issue like this to the Supreme Court.
- [36:10]
Unnamed Speaker
Well, also remember, what Judge Merchan has already signaled is that he is not going to be sending Donald Trump. Usually, a defendant would be like, great, sentencing me because that takes away the risk of going to jail. It also does something else. It allows Donald Trump to appeal. The way appeals work normally is that you appeal after you are sentenced. So Judge Marchant pointed out that by sentencing on Friday, he will have all of his appellate rights to challenge everything and anything with respect to the underlying trial. And so he can try and vindicate. Instead, what he wants is to never have that sentencing go forward.
- [36:49]
Lawrence O'Donnell
We're going to be watching both of these every day this week. Andrew Weissman, thank you very much for joining us on that breaking news tonight. And coming up, they were there and they're lucky to be alive. Two former Capitol Police officers who survived the attack on the Capitol on January 6th four years ago today will join us next. Quote, it's hard to witness a rich white man get rewarded for treachery while I'm punished for fulfilling my duty. That is a line from the New York Times opinion piece written by one of our next guests, Former Capitol Police Sergeant Aquino Gunnell, titled For Many of Us, January 6th Never Ended. Former Sergeant Gunnell writes, quote, for those who didn't experience the violence January 6, 2021 might feel like it's in the past, but it's not for me. I keep reliving the five horrific hours of that cold Wednesday afternoon as I tried to protect elected officials, regardless of their political ideology and their staffs inside the Capitol building, all without firing my gun. For my efforts, doing my duty as a Capitol Police sergeant, I was beaten and struck by, by raging rioters all over my body with multiple weapons until I was covered in my own blood. My hand, foot and shoulder were wounded. I thought I was going to die and never make it home to see my wife and young son. Over the last four years, it's been devastating to me to hear Donald Trump repeat his promise to pardon insurrectionists on the first day he's back in office. It will be my great honor to pardon the peaceful protesters, or as I often call them, the hostages, he said in the speech last year. But all of us who were there and anyone who watched on TV know that those who stormed the Capitol were not peaceful protesters. Pardoning them would be an outrageous mistake, one that could mean about 800 convicted criminals will be back on the street. It could also put me in danger as I've continued to to testify in court and I've given victim statements in cases against dozens of the rioters who assaulted me and my fellow officers. One of his fellow officers, Harry Dunn, who will also be joining us in a moment, he said this about Harry Dunn. In that article, my friend Harry Dunn, the first law enforcement member to prominently condemn the brazen uprising, testified about our primitive hand to hand fighting against improvised weaponry like flag poles, metal bike racks and projectiles, with officers bleeding and blinded and coughing from bear spray. Harry, who was called racial slurs, has since retired his blue uniform. And joining us now, former Capitol Police Sergeant Aquino Gunnell and former Capitol Police officer Harry Dunn. I have to say it is really an honor to have both of you here. And sorry, Sergeant Gannell, as you've said, January 6th never ends for you.
- [39:51]
Aquino Gunnell
Yeah, thanks for having me. Look, at the end of the day, we are still feeling the ramification of that horrible day, not only for myself, but for my colleagues as well. And whether Donald Trump pardoned these individuals or not, history be the judge of that. But I do want people to realize and remember the five names of the officers who die the result of the January 6th insurrection. And that's what really needs to be remembered. Not the victims or heroes as they want to call themselves, because there was nothing to be proud of on that day, but the defense of the valiant effort of the officers who defended the Capitol in our democracy.
- [40:41]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Harry Dunn, and I know when both of you speak about this, you are usually talking about what happened to other officers. You always like to direct the attention, quite understandably, to your colleagues and some of whom suffered physically more than you did. But tell us about the racial component of what you encountered there.
- [41:03]
Harry Dunn
Yeah, thanks, Lawrence, for having me. No, so I don't believe that January 6th was some big white supremacist racist event. That's not what it was. I don't think so. But there were a lot of racist people there. They used the word. I didn't suffer the injuries that Sergeant Ganell and several of my other coworkers did, which is why I talk about their injuries a lot. But the injuries I sustained were the words that they used. They used those words as weapons when they called me the N word and several of my other co workers the N word. When I, when I had the opportunity to testify before Congress, I asked Some of my coworkers tell me your stories and several of them shared with me how they had been also called the N word and, you know, subjected to racial slurs in addition to being attacked on the front lines. So while there were. So if you asked 100 different officers who were there that day, tell me what happened, you'll get 100 different answers. But everybody fought a different battle. But it seemed like the officers of color fought a little different battle than everybody else there that day.
- [42:12]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Sergeant Connell, what would you tell Donald Trump as he approaches his decision about who to pardon?
- [42:20]
Aquino Gunnell
It will be a miserable failure of justice if he pardoned the same people who attack us. Look, at the end of the day, we were doing our job. We fulfill our oath. And he cannot then go and say that he's the law and order president when he's pardoning people who committed violent crimes against officers who were defending the Capitol on his behalf under his banner in attacking the very same system that he's going to allow him to become president again. Some of the same, very same officers who were defending the Capitol on January 6th, they're going to be protecting him on January 20th when he's going to be sworn in. I'm sure he's not going to apologize or say something nice to us. Every time that he says something about us, he call us the failures and thugs and the people who attack us. He calls them heroes and patriots and victims. And there are not such of any of those things. You know, it's very disappointing that even after we fought so hard to protect that Republican elector, officials have failed to even stand along with the officers who defended them from being only one person present at the funeral of Brian Signey and not even passing the law, installing the plaque that they passed two years ago and they completely failed.
- [44:04]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Aquilino Gunnell and Harry Dunn, thank you very much for your brave service and it is an honor to have you joining us here tonight.
- [44:11]
Harry Dunn
Thank you, Lord.
- [44:12]
Aquino Gunnell
Thank you, thank you.
- [44:14]
Lawrence O'Donnell
The Capitol Police get tonight's last word.
- [44:17]
Dr. Horton
Hey, it's Mel Robbins, host of the Mel Robbins Podcast. Let's just cut to the chase. There is a change you want to make right now, but you're waiting to feel motivated. You don't need motivation. You've got me. You can change your life anytime you want. And when you're ready, the Mel Robbins Podcast is here to help you with inspiration and simple science backed tools to help you create a better life.
- [44:38]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Listen.
- [44:39]
Dr. Horton
Listen to me and you'll feel motivated. All right, listen to the Mel Robbins Podcast now. On the SiriusXM app. Download it.