Lawrence: Letitia James should wear being on Trump's enemies list as a badge of honor

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: "The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell"

Episode: Letitia James Should Wear Being on Trump’s Enemies List as a Badge of Honor

Date: October 10, 2025
Host: Lawrence O’Donnell (MSNBC)

Overview

In this episode, Lawrence O’Donnell examines the political significance of former President Donald Trump’s public enemies list, drawing a historical comparison to Richard Nixon. He focuses on the recent indictment of New York Attorney General Letitia James, arguing that her inclusion on Trump’s list should be celebrated as a badge of honor, much like those targeted by Nixon. O'Donnell scrutinizes the legitimacy of the charges against James, highlights the erosion of institutional norms in Congress, and discusses the dysfunction in Washington, with guests including Rep. Ro Khanna, Rep. Greg Casar, and historian Norm Ornstein.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump vs. Nixon: The Public Enemies List [01:26–04:46]

• O’Donnell draws direct historical parallels between Richard Nixon’s secret enemies list and Donald Trump’s very public version.
• Nixon’s enemies list was revealed during Watergate and became “a badge of honor” for those named, whereas Trump’s approach is more chaotic and out in the open.
• Trump’s accidental public posting of his prosecution demands on social media displayed “command and chaos” in his leadership style.

Notable Quote:

"The big difference between disgraced Republican President Richard Nixon and disgraced Republican President Donald Trump is that Richard Nixon did not spend his life locked in a Trumpian prison of stupidity."
— Lawrence O’Donnell, [01:30]

2. Badge of Honor: Letitia James’ Indictment and Trump’s Retaliation [05:19–14:22]

• Letitia James has been indicted for alleged bank fraud regarding a mortgage application — a charge O’Donnell calls baseless and impossible to prove unless intent can be established (“state of mind”).
• The prosecution claims she intended to rent a property she purchased as a second home, something millions of Americans do.
• O’Donnell predicts James will defeat the charges and likens her position to that of Comey and others previously on Nixon’s list.
• The process, he argues, is a selective, political, and prejudicial prosecution with little legal merit.

Notable Quote:

"Donald Trump's enemies list is the badge of honor of our era. And today, New York State Attorney General Letitia James got one of those badges."
— Lawrence O’Donnell, [07:15]

3. Letitia James Responds [14:22–16:30]

• Letitia James issues a forceful statement, calling the charges "baseless" and condemning Trump’s misuse of the justice system as a tool for personal retribution.
• She emphasizes her faith, resilience, and intent to fight the indictment, reinforcing her commitment to protecting New Yorkers.

Notable Quote:

"I’m a proud woman of faith, and I know that faith and fear cannot share the same space... No weapon formed against me shall prosper."
— Letitia James, [15:52]

4. Weaponization of Justice: Selective Targeting and What Really Matters [16:30–19:11]

• O’Donnell reassures listeners that James and Comey, unlike the powerless, have ample resources to defend themselves.
• He shifts outrage toward Trump-era immigration policies and abuses suffered by vulnerable individuals, highlighting the difference between the powerful and the powerless.

Notable Quote:

"There is much to summon our outrage about in the madness of the Trump presidency. But...the people who Donald Trump has so far dragged into court could not possibly be better equipped or better financed..."
— Lawrence O’Donnell, [13:13]

5. Trump Administration, Robert Kennedy Jr., and the Cabinet Show [19:11–22:22]

• A satirical critique of the Trump Cabinet, specifically ridiculing Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (current Secretary of Health and Human Services in this context) for making ignorant public comments regarding pregnancy and anatomy.
• O’Donnell contrasts Kennedy Jr.’s legacy with his father Robert F. Kennedy Sr.’s stance against McCarthyism and Nixon.

Memorable Moment:

"Saying the fetus is in her placenta during pregnancy is like saying it's in her foot."
— Lawrence O’Donnell, [19:57]

6. Epstein Client List, Congressional Inaction, and Selective Justice [22:22–27:39]

a. Public Demands for Transparency

• Discussion of Trump’s Attorney General Pam Bondi’s evasions regarding the unreleased Jeffrey Epstein client list and rumors of compromising photographs.
• Senator Sheldon Whitehouse’s probing questions met with deflections.

Senator Whitehouse: “Did the FBI find those photographs that have been discussed publicly by a witness who claimed Jeffrey Epstein showed them to him?”
— [23:50]

b. Ro Khanna, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and Congressional Maneuvering

• Rep. Ro Khanna decries congressional stalling over the release of Epstein-related files and allies with surprising partners (Marjorie Taylor Greene) on transparency.
• Both lament House inactivity, linking it to attempts to suppress disclosure.

“It is just so rotten. And it really raises the question, what is there to hide?”
— Rep. Ro Khanna, [27:17]

7. Government Shutdown Pain: Testimonies and Political Responses [29:31–35:33]

a. Voices from the Shutdown

• A military spouse delivers an emotional plea to Speaker Mike Johnson about the real-life consequences of the shutdown, particularly for military families facing missed paychecks.
• Rep. Greg Casar delivers constituent letters to Sen. John Cornyn, criticizing the Senator’s avoidance of constituents and his pursuit of Medicaid cuts.

"The audacity of someone who makes six figures a year to do this to military families is insane."
— Caller to Speaker Johnson, [31:15]

b. Election Implications and Democratic Strategy

• O’Donnell and Casar discuss the political ramifications for Texas Republicans, emphasizing the stakes of health care and government aid in upcoming elections.
• Democrats want to show, beyond opposition to Trump, that they will “stand up and fight for” real issues.

8. Collapse of Senate Institutional Norms: "Institutional Patriotism" [36:36–46:59]

a. Senate Hearings and Accountability

• O’Donnell spotlights Attorney General Bondi’s evasive, disrespectful performance before the Senate regarding an FBI sting (Tom Homan $50k bribe) and laments Republican senators' lack of accountability.
• Reminisces about earlier Senate eras, when oversight was bipartisan and respect for institutional norms was paramount.

b. Norm Ornstein on "Institutional Patriotism"

• Historian Norm Ornstein explains how the Senate once prioritized its transcendent institutional role ("institutional patriotism") above partisanship — a principle now absent.
• Both Ornstein and O’Donnell argue the Senate’s decline is aiding Trump’s autocratic tendencies.

"If anything mattered to senators inside, it was integrity. It was their own word. Your word is your bond... The fact that we don't have a single one of them we can rely on is appalling and astonishing."
— Norm Ornstein, [45:40]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump and Nixon:

  "Donald Trump could have had a moment in high school when he decided, you know what? I should really learn something here... But he didn’t."
  — Lawrence O'Donnell, [01:39]

• On Prosecutorial Futility:

  "This is a state of mind crime. And the prosecution doesn’t know her state of mind. The prosecution will never be able to prove what they claim is a fact."
  — Lawrence O’Donnell, [08:56]

• Letitia James Stands Tall:

  "I know that faith and fear cannot share the same space. And so today, I'm not fearful."
  — Letitia James, [15:55]

• On Congressional Evasion (Epstein Files):

  “How long does it take to review a list?”
  — Lawrence O’Donnell, [22:29]

• On Senate Erosion:

  "There isn’t a single one of them now who has any level of respect for their own institution."
  — Norm Ornstein, [44:02]

---

Structure & Flow

• The episode flows as a series of interconnected monologues and interviews, starting with historical perspective, moving to current legal/political events, underlining the personal and public impacts, and closing with analysis of institutional decline in Congress.
• O’Donnell’s tone is sharp, satirical, and passionate, particularly when contrasting the powerful (James, Comey) with the voiceless (immigrants and everyday citizens affected by Trump-era policies).

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |-----------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Trump vs. Nixon’s Enemies List | 01:26–04:46 | | Letitia James Indictment Analysis | 05:19–14:22 | | Letitia James Responds | 14:22–16:30 | | Weaponization of Justice & Powerful vs. Powerless | 16:30–19:11 | | Cabinet/Cabinet Show Satire: RFK Jr., Trump Cabinet | 19:11–22:22 | | Epstein List & Congressional Inaction | 22:22–27:39 | | Shutdown Pain: Real Stories | 29:31–35:33 | | Institutional Patriotism: Senate’s Decline | 36:36–46:59 |

---

Conclusion

Lawrence O’Donnell’s episode delivers a rich, historically-informed critique of Trump’s public “enemies list” and the modern decline of congressional integrity. Letitia James becomes the focal point for resilience against political retribution, symbolizing the contemporary “badge of honor.” The episode ties the personal, the political, and the institutional — showing how the collapse of norms amplifies the dangers of unchecked power, and urging listeners to direct their outrage toward those truly suffering under these systemic failures.

Transcript

[A]

If you're a smoker or dipper ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zynn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zynn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zynn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zyn. Check out Zyn.com find to find Zyn at a store near you. Warning. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

[B]

Hey, guys. Finding the perfect gift for the food.

[A]

Lover in your life is easy thanks to Goldbelly.

[B]

Goldbelly ships America's most iconic foods straight.

[A]

From world famous restaurants right to your door. So if you want to treat someone to Joe's Stone Crab from Miami, Franklin Barbecue from Texas, or desserts from famous foodies like Ina Garten or Martha Stewart, Goldbelly has you covered.

[B]

Just go to goldbelly.com and for a limited time, get 20% off your first.

[A]

Order with promo code gift. That's promo code gift.

[C]

The Last word with Lawrence o'.

[D]

Donnell.

[B]

Hopefully he's not running around the studios like he was last night.

[C]

Starts right now. Hey, Lawrence.

[B]

Jet. I'm just finishing my notes on your podcast and where to find it and exactly how to get it.

[D]

Oh, my goodness.

[E]

I hope you scan the Q and A.

[B]

You want to say that one more time? Your podcast is findable. How?

[C]

Anywhere you get your podcast.

[B]

There you go. There you go.

[E]

It's easy.

[C]

Easy to remember.

[E]

Wherever you listen, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, we're there.

[B]

All right, we're going to get it. Thanks, Jen.

[C]

Thanks, Lawrence.

[B]

Thank you. Well, we have been here before, and it did not end well for the madman at the center of the plot, the president with an enemies list. The big difference between disgraced Republican President Richard Nixon and disgraced Republican President Donald Trump is that Richard Nixon did not spend his life locked in a Trumpian prison of stupidity. A prison from which Donald Trump has never even tried to escape. Donald Trump could have had a moment in high school when he decided, you know what? I should really learn something here. He could have had a moment like that in college. He could have decided to stay home one night and read a book instead of partying with Jeffrey Epstein. But he didn't. He never did. Richard Nixon grew up poor. He inherited nothing. He worked hard in high school. He worked hard all the way through Whittier College and Duke Law School, worked his way through. Richard Nixon was constantly trying to learn but he never learned enough to contain his darkest criminal impulses that destroyed him in the end, forcing him to resign. The presidency in scandal. One big difference between Republican Donald Trump and Republican Richard Nixon is that Richard Nixon did not make his enemies list public. We are learning in new reporting from the Wall Street Journal that Donald Trump intended to send a personal, private text to his Attorney General, Pam Bondi, demanding the criminal prosecution of former FBI Director James Comey, New York State Attorney General Letitia James, and California Senator A.D. schiff. But what he actually composed instead of a text and what he actually sent was a social media post that became available to the entire world. The Wall Street Journal reports Trump believed he had sent Bondi the message directly addressing it to Pam, and was surprised to learn it was public. According to U.S. officials familiar with the matter, the misfire provided a window into how, through command and chaos, Trump has executed a wholesale transformation of the Justice Department. Donald Trump is going to Walter Reed National Military Medical center tomorrow for another physical, only six months after his last physical. And he very proudly told reporters today that he expects to do very well on another cognitive exam to detect evidence of dementia. Luckily for Donald Trump, texting is not on the cognitive function exam. Most important thing to know about the enemy's list is that it was a badge of honor when the full version of the Nixon enemies list was unveiled by the Nixon White House counsel John Dean at the Watergate hearings. By that time, everyone was hoping they were on it.

[F]

The next is a document dated September 9, 1971. It's From Charles Colson to John Dean in which Mr. Colson has checked in.

[B]

Blue those that he would give top.

[F]

Priority on the enemy's list and a an attached series of lists that were.

[B]

Prepared by Mr. Colson's office of what.

[F]

Were deemed opponents or political enemies.

[B]

In a secret memo written by John Dean in the Nixon White House two years before the Watergate investigation, John Dean outlined, quote, how we can use the available federal machinery to screw our political enemies. And it didn't work. Some people had their telephones tapped. They had their taxes audited. But for just about all of the 200 or so people in the full version of the Nixon enemies list, nothing happened. In fact, they didn't get screwed. They thrived. Gene Hackman won his first Oscar while he was secretly on the Nixon enemies lists. Gregory Peck didn't have to give back his Oscar because he was on Nixon's enemies list, along with Paul Newman and Steve McQueen and New York jets quarterback Joe Namath, who was erroneously listed as the New York Giants quarterback. That's how crazy the Nixon enemies list was. Dozens of members of the news media were on the list when it came out, including three from the Boston Globe, which the Globe then lorded over other newspapers with fewer entries on the enemies list. Sander Van Oker made the list to make NBC News proud. Twelve senators were on the list, including one Republican. None of them got screwed by Richard Nixon and his White House thugs in any way. Every black member of Congress was on the Nixon enemies list because of course, the list was also racist. In addition to being crazy, Harvard could not have been prouder of its most famous professor at the time, economist John Kenneth Galbraith, for making the Nixon enemies list. Yale's president was on the Nixon enemies list. Harvard Law School's dean was on the Nixon enemies list. And the most famous surgeon in America at the time, Texas heart surgeon Michael DeBakey, for some Nixonian reason, was on Nixon's enemies list. The most famous conductor and composer in America at the time, Leonard Bernstein, was no one's enemy except Richard Nixon's, and he could not have been prouder. And so the badges of honor are being awarded once again, and it will end the same way. Donald Trump's enemies list is the badge of honor of our era. And today, New York State Attorney General Letitia James got one of those badges when the same possibly illegally appointed acting U.S. attorney who indicted James Comey indicted Attorney General James. Attorney General James is being indicted in a three and a half page two count indictment for one count of bank fraud and one count of false statement to a financial institution because on a mortgage application, Attorney General James indicated that she would use a second home she was buying as a second home. And then at some time after that, after she bought the home, she apparently, according to the indictment, that home, quote, was not occupied or used by James as a secondary residence and was instead used as a rental investment property, renting the property to a family of three. Now, millions of people in America have done exactly that. Millions of people in America have obtained mortgages for their primary home or their secondary home and then decided at some point to rent out that house. And none of them thought they had to then immediately refinance their homes, because they didn't, they were just renting out their property. The key words in this indictment that the most incompetent acting US Attorney in history offered absolutely no proof of, the key words are as James then knew. This indictment presents as a fact that Attorney General James knew when she was filling out the application form that she would later rent out the house. And if she didn't know that at the time that she was filling out the form, or if she just hadn't decided at the time if she was going to rent out the house, there is no possible crime in this case. This is a state of mind crime. And the prosecution doesn't know her state of mind. The prosecution will never be able to prove what they claim is a fact. The indictment says James represented and affirmed in uniform residential loan applications and related documents that the property would be used as a secondary residence. This is the key part. When, in truth and fact, as James then knew. Those are the most important words here. As James then knew, the property was intended and used as an investment property. So this entire case comes down to the prosecution having to prove what it claims as a fact that Attorney General James then knew and that she intended to rent out the property. This is state of mind. You have to be able to read her state of mind to do this. Prosecution. If you fill out your application for your home mortgage and you say the property is for your own use, and then after you own the property, if you decide to rent out that property, you have every legal right in the world to rent out that property. And no one can come along and prosecute you because your mortgage application didn't say you were going to at some point rent out your property. We live in a place that we like to call a free country, and one of your freedoms is renting out your property. And you can decide to do that at any time after you buy that property. And so imagine this prosecutor has never prosecuted a case in her life trying to convince a trial jury that Attorney General James willfully lied on the application and always knew that she was going to rent out the property. That is simply not a provable state of mind. And the prosecutor cannot call Attorney General James as a witness to ask her what her state of mind was. And so there's a very strong chance that this case, if it makes it to trial, will get a directed verdict from the judge, finding that the prosecution was incapable of proving what it claims in writing in the indictment is a fact. Attorney General James state of mind. So Attorney General James is probably on her way to take her place in history with former FBI Director James Comey at the top of the Trump enemies list and as the people who beat the madman in the White House in court, because that is what is likely to happen here. You can listen to all sorts of lawyers talk about this case, but it comes down to the same elements as The James Comey case. The first motions are going to be to disqualify this new acting U.S. attorney. Those motions will very probably succeed. The other motions will be to identify this as a selective and prejudicial prosecution. Those motions will likely succeed, and that'll be the end of the case. Attorney General James has already beaten Donald Trump in court for business fraud practices in the state of New York. Donald Trump's appealing that case in the state of New York. James Comey and Letitia James have the best defense lawyers you can possibly have in these cases. They're going to win. Donald Trump is going to lose. Don't worry about them. You don't have to worry about them. There is much to summon our outrage about in the madness of the Trump presidency. But the people who Donald Trump has so far dragged into court could not possibly be better equipped or better financed to fight Donald Trump in court and crush him. What Donald Trump is doing to other people in court, what he's doing to immigrants in this country who show up at federal courts for their appointments and then get thrown to the floor by masked men and beaten and dragged away from their families and shipped off to countries that they've never been to, they deserve the full force of your outrage. Those people have no resources. They have no voice. They've done nothing wrong. They've tried to do everything right. They went to that federal court to do everything right, and their lives are already ruined. They cannot wear their deportation as a badge of honor. But the Attorney General of the State of New York can.

[C]

This is nothing more than a continuation of the President's desperate weaponization of our justice system. He is forcing federal law enforcement agencies to do his bidding, all because I did my job as the New York State Attorney General. These charges are baseless, and the President's own public statements make clear that his only goal is political retribution at any cost. The President's actions are a grave violation of our constitutional order and have drawn sharp criticism from. From members of both parties. His decision to fire a United States Attorney who refused to bring charges against me and replace them with someone who is blindly loyal not to the law, but to the president, is antithetical to the bedrock principles of our country. This is the time for leaders on both sides of the aisle to speak out against this blatant perversion of our system of justice. I stand strongly behind my office's litigation against the Trump Organization. We conducted a two year investigation based on the facts and evidence, not politics. Judges have upheld the trial court's finding that Donald Trump, his company, and his two sons are liable for fraud. I'm a proud woman of faith, and I know that faith and fear cannot share the same space. And so today, I'm not fearful. I'm fearless. And as my faith teaches me, no weapon formed against me shall prosper. We will fight these baseless charges aggressively. And my office will continue to fiercely protect New Yorkers and their rights. And I will continue to do my job.

[B]

This blatant perversion of our justice system that is Donald Trump's perversion. She's right. She has nothing to fear. That smile is real. She knows she's going to win. She knows Donald Trump's going to lose. And she knows she can wear her place on the Trump enemies list as a badge of honor for the rest of her life. Robert Kennedy, the younger brother of President John F. Kennedy, began his career in government working for the worst member of the United States Senate. In 1953. Robert Kennedy worked on the committee staff of Republican Republican Senator Joe McCarthy, a raging lying alcoholic who was falsely accusing hundreds of people of being communists. And he really was ruining lives. Robert Kennedy grew disgusted by Senator McCarthy's tactics and Robert Kennedy quit after six months. And now Robert Kennedy's son, Robert Kennedy Jr. Who hoes everything he has in this life, including his current occupation, to his father's name, happily works for the 21st century version of Joe McCarthy. Robert Kennedy is the first Secretary of Health and Human Services who specializes in delivering life threatening advice on medical issues. And today, he once again demonstrated the price we are all now paying for the two biggest addictions of his heroin and fame. Robert Kennedy Jr. Was a heroin addict in high school when he was supposed to be studying biology and couldn't. Robert Kennedy Jr. Was a heroin addict in college and couldn't possibly take a single pre med course. Wouldn't have understood a word in those courses. But you don't have to have finished high school to know how insanely wrong he was today about women's bodies. It happened during the Trump Cabinet show. They used to be called Cabinet meetings, but Donald Trump has simply turned them into a TV show where, like his previous NBC show, the Game Is who can praise Donald Trump the most. Every member of the Cabinet always embarrasses themselves on the Trump Cabinet show, but Today, Robert Kennedy Jr. Managed to outdo them all with this public burst of insanity. I'll say one other thing about Todd.

[G]

Only because of this. This morning before I came in here.

[B]

Somebody showed me a TikTok video of.

[G]

A pregnant woman, eight months pregnant she.

[B]

Is an associate professor at the Columbia Medical School. And she is saying F. Trump and.

[G]

Gobbling Tylenol with her baby in her placenta.

[B]

With her baby in her what? Her baby in her placenta. Either he doesn't know what a placenta is or he doesn't know what a baby is. He's the Secretary of Health and Human Services, and he has no idea what a placenta is. And he's speaking to a President of the United States who also has absolutely no idea what a placenta is. And between them are two men in that cabinet who show no hint of having the slightest idea of what a placenta is. Saying the fetus is in her placenta during pregnancy is like saying it's in her foot. Robert Kennedy Jr. S father turned against the senator with an enemies list in 1953. Joe McCarthy. And Robert Kennedy Jr. S father hated Richard Nixon and ran for president in 1968, right up until the day he was assassinated, in the hope of stopping Richard Nixon from being the next President of the United States. Because Senator Robert Kennedy knew what kind of person Richard Nixon was. Senator Robert Kennedy was right about Richard Nixon. Senator Robert Kennedy would not have been even slightly surprised to discover that Richard Nixon had an enemies list. But Senator Robert Kennedy didn't live long enough to make it on to the Nixon White House enemies list. But his younger brother Ted was on the Nixon enemies list, something Senator Ted Kennedy carried as a badge of honor for the rest of his long life. And There's Robert Kennedy Jr. Today, worshiping @ the altar of the most ignorant man who has ever sat in the center chair in the Cabinet Room, the man with the enemies. Listen up next. Donald Trump's enemies list is public. And Donald Trump's Justice Department still has not produced Jeffrey Epstein's client list that Trump's attorney General said was sitting on her desk. Congressman Ro Khanna will join us next. So Donald Trump makes his enemies list public, but he's still hiding the Epstein client list that his attorney general said on television was sitting on her desk in February. This is something Donald Trump has talked about. The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients. Will that really happen?

[E]

It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump.

[B]

How long does it take to review a list? And Donald Trump's Attorney General now is in her third day of abject silence about the possibility that she personally has seen photographs in the Epstein files of Donald Trump that were in Jeffrey Epstein's possession. Photographs of Donald Trump with young women.

[H]

Let me ask you something else. There's been public reporting that Jeffrey Epstein showed people photos of President Trump with half naked young. Do you know if the FBI found those photographs in their search of Jeffrey Epstein's safe or premises or otherwise? Have you seen any such thing?

[E]

You know, Senator Whitehouse, you sit here and make salacious remarks once again trying to slander President Trump left and right, when you're the one who was taking money from one of Epstein's closest confidants. I believe I could be wrong. Correct me, Reid Hoffman, who was with Jeffrey Epstein on multiple occasions and the senator sitting right next to you tried to block the flight logs from being released, yet you're grilling me on President Trump and some photograph with Epstein.

[D]

Come on.

[H]

The question is, did the FBI find those photographs that have been discussed publicly by a witness who claimed Jeffrey Epstein showed them to him? You don't know anything about that? Okay.

[B]

Didn't dare say a word. She was lying, of course, about the contributions Senator Whitehouse. That never happened. That was the only question in her Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on Tuesday that left her in fear of even saying a word about it. Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California. He's a member of the House Oversight Committee. Congressman Khanna, when I see these, you know, cross campus hearings, I wonder what's the reaction in the House when you see this moment in the Senate? That moment about the photographs that Senator Whitehouse isolated was really quite stunning.

[F]

Well, Lawrence, you know, Senator Whitehouse, he's not someone for drama or sensationalism.

[B]

He's.

[F]

He was asking a simple, factual question. And Pam Bondi basically didn't respond. She just started hurling accusations against Senator Whitehouse, baseless accusations and everyone else because she didn't want to answer the question about whether there were pictures of Donald Trump with young girls. Obviously, there's a reason she didn't deny it. And then today she has the goal to tweet out that she believes in one tier of justice for all Americans. What about the rich and powerful men in the Epstein files? Obviously, she doesn't believe in one tier of justice for them.

[B]

As we go forward, we are now, as I think people know, one vote away in the House of Representatives from the House voting to have the Justice Department turn over the Epstein files. And Marjorie Taylor Greene, who supports you on this, on getting the Epstein files today, talked about, what's the delay? Is this part of why the speaker is not bringing Republicans back into the House? Let's listen to what she said I.

[E]

Can'T conclusively say if that's why the House is not in session, but the House should be in session and the House should be in session for many reasons. We have appropriation bills that need to get passed. There is a new Democrat that's been elected that does deserve to be sworn in. Her district elected her. We have other bills that we need to be passing. And if it's to avoid the discharge petition, why drag this out? That is going to have 218 signatures. And so I say go ahead and do it and get it over with.

[B]

Carson Connell, I have to say, Marjorie Taylor Greene, making sense is a whole new experience for me. What was your reaction to that?

[F]

Well, she's just telling the truth. You know, Lawrence, I've got to be honest, I'm a little nervous coming on your show because I think last week I came on and I said, Marjorie Taylor Greene myself, Thomas Massie, are going to have a press conference this week with the survivors. And the day that we get the 218 signature, I'm convinced the speaker staff is monitoring this show and others. And they said, oh, we can't have that. And so we're just not going to have the Congress come in to vote. And I think Marjorie Taylor Greene is upset about that. Look, the speaker was asked this morning by a mother almost in tears, a Republican mother saying the troops are not being paid. Can we at least get Congress in to pay the troops? And they don't want to have Congress in to pay the troops because they're afraid of swearing in Adelita Grijalva because they're afraid of a vote on the Epstein Falls. It is just so rotten. And, and it really raises the question, what is there to hide?

[B]

Carson Ro Khanna, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[F]

Thank you.

[B]

Coming up today, the Republican speaker of the House, as you just heard, finally had to face people suffering in the government shutdown that he has created. That's next.

[A]

If you're a smoker or dipper ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zyn nicotine pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Reasons Zyn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus Zyn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zinn. Check out zen.com find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

[B]

Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected and each one more expensive and more complicated than the last. It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and are all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up [e-mail] that's o d o.

[G]

O.Com hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie.

[B]

When you use Angie for your home.

[G]

Projects, you know all your jobs will be done well.

[B]

Roof repair, done well.

[G]

Kitchen sink install, done well.

[B]

Deck upgrades, done well. Electrical upgrade, done well.

[G]

Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years.

[B]

So we know the difference between done and done well.

[G]

Hire high quality [e-mail].

[B]

Today the speaker of the House was finally forced to face the pain of his decision to shut the down the government.

[I]

Hi Mr. Johnson. So my question or comments are related to what you said yesterday about not being open to pass any legislation to ensure that military gets paid. I'm sure you can tell by my voice I'm very shaky. Just want you to hear a little bit about my family. I have two medically fragile children. I have a husband who actively serves this country. He suffers from PTSD from his two chores in Afghanistan. If we see a lapse in pay come the 15th, my children do not get to get the medication that's needed for them to live their life because we live paycheck to paycheck. I heard you earlier say that you side with President Trump on anything that he says. Well, I just read an article this morning that said he absolutely, wholeheartedly believes that there needs to be legislation put in so that we do not miss a paycheck. You have the power to do that. And as a Republican, I am very disappointed in my party and I'm very disappointed in you because you do have the power to call the House back. You did that or you refused to do that just for a show? I am begging you to pass this legislation. My kids could die. We don't have the credit because of the medical bills that I have to pay regularly. You could stop this and you could be the one that could say military is getting paid. And I think that it is. And the audacity of someone who makes six figures a year to do this to military families is insane.

[B]

Today, Democratic Congressman Greg Kazar of Texas went to Texas Republican Senator John Cornyn's office in San Antonio to deliver letters from Texans worried about their health care.

[D]

Dear Senator Cornyn, I'm a Texan and a mom asking you to stop huge cuts to Medicaid. If the one trust trillion dollars in Medicaid cuts goes through that you voted for, it could be devastating for my son and for people with disabilities across Texas. My name is Diane, and my son has severe physical disabilities that affect his ability to care for himself and live independently. He relies on Medicaid not just to see a doctor and stay healthy, but also for the services that allow him to live here in our community and not be put away in an institution. We cannot and will not let the progress that has been made over the last 35 years by disability rights activists like Justin Darden and Judy Heumann be destroyed by this Trump administration. Please help us fight and save Medicaid. Sincerely, Diet.

[B]

Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Greg Kazar of Texas. He is the chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Congressman, did you manage to get those letters to Senator Cornyn?

[D]

Look, it isn't normal. You don't normally see members of Congress trying to deliver letters to other members of Congress or having rallies outside of the offices of other members of Congress. But these aren't normal times. Senator Cornyn has been avoiding talking to his own constituents. So we tried to deliver these letters from people who need their health care. And not only weren't we not even allowed to the front desk, they wouldn't even accept the letters. They refused to hear from their own constituents. And so these clearly aren't normal times. So Democrats can't just act normally. We have to make this fight very clear to the American people that senators like John Cornyn are fighting hard right now to keep the government shut down, to take away your health care and serve billionaires, while Democrats have to show that we're willing to fight to make sure everyday people are heard, whether you're a Democrat or a Republican.

[B]

So it's one thing for a Republican senator to kind of hide out from constituents if their next reelection campaign is five years away. But Senator Cornyn is running now for reelection next year. How long can he avoid his constituents on this with a Senate campaign going on?

[D]

Well, look, last time that Trump was in office, Senator Ted Cruz was the one running for reelection, and he only made it by. By 200,000 votes. Right now, Senator John Cornyn is trying to jack up health care costs for over 3 million Texans, kick another million Texans off of their health care. This could be an extremely tight race. And the saddest thing about it is Senator Cornyn is known to be a very cordial guy. I've gotten to know him, and he's one of the people who knows better than this. But he is so scared of losing to Ken Paxton. He wants to act as MAGA as he can, wants to cozy up and sell out to the billionaires as much as he can. But what's sad is he's probably going to lose to Ken Paxton the primary anyway. It's a real disgrace to him because he could have been a John McCain in this moment, and instead he's just been a sellout.

[B]

What are your constituents telling you they are hoping for next year?

[D]

Look, I know so many people out in the country know that Democrats are opposed to Donald Trump, but they want to know what we're willing to stand up and fight for. What are the issues that are motivating the Democratic Party of today? And I think right now in this government shutdown, we can show people united that we're willing to stand up to make sure that you can afford to live, that you can afford your health care, that you don't get your money taken away from you by a billionaire in the C suite or a billionaire in the White House. And I think that's what we're trying to show the American people is both Donald Trump's horrible policies, but also the Democrats can stand for something better.

[B]

Congressman Greg Kazar, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[D]

Thank you very much, Lawrence.

[B]

And coming up, more on why John Cornyn may be failing his constituents and failing to live up to his role as a senator. Institutional patriotism. That's a phrase that explains everything that has been lost in Washington in the Trump era and has left us with the stunning weakness of Republican members of the House and Senate on tragic display every day. That's next.

[A]

If you're a smoker or dipper ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zyn nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Reasons Zyn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zyn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zyn. Check out zyn.com find to find Zyn at a store near you. Warning. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

[B]

It's Cybersecurity awareness month. And Lifelock is here with tips to help protect your identity. Use strong passwords. Set up multi factor authentication and report phishing scams. And for comprehensive identity protection, Lifelock is your best choice. Lifelock alerts you to suspicious uses of your personal information and also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, stay safe and stay protected with a 30 day free [e-mail] Specialoffer terms apply.

[G]

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. One thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. And for decades, Angie's helped millions of homeowners hire skilled people, pros for the projects that matter. Get all your jobs done [e-mail].

[B]

On Tuesday, in her testimony to the Senate, Donald Trump's attorney general mostly refused to answer questions about MSNBC's reporting about Donald Trump's so called border czar Tom Homan being caught on FBI video accepting $50,000 in cash from undercover FBI agents last year. On Tuesday, Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse zeroed in on the Homan cash.

[H]

What became of the $50,000 in cash that the FBI paid to Mr. Homan in a paper bag? Evidently.

[E]

Senator, as Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch recently stated, the investigation of Mr. Homan was subjected to a full review by the FBI agents and DOJ prosecutors. They found no credible evidence of any wrongdoing.

[H]

And that was not my question. My question was what became of the $50,000 in cash that the FBI delivered, evidently in a paper bag, to Mr. Homan?

[E]

Senator, I'd look at your facts.

[H]

Are you saying that they did not deliver $50,000 in cash to Mr. Homan?

[E]

Senator, as recently stated, the investigation of Mr. Homan was subjected to a full review.

[H]

Different question.

[E]

Five FBI agents. That's a different question by Department of Justice prosecutors. They found no evidence of wrongdoing.

[H]

That's a different question. What became of the $50,000? Did the FBI get it back?

[E]

Mr. Whitehouse, excuse me, Senator Whitehouse, you're welcome to talk to the FBI.

[H]

The report to you. Can't you answer this question?

[E]

Senator Whitehouse, you're welcome to discuss this with Director Patel.

[H]

Did homan keep the $50,000?

[E]

As Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche recently stated, the investigation of Mr. Hoban.

[H]

Never mind. I can see I'm not going to get a straight answer from you to a very simple question.

[B]

The tragedy of that hearing was not just the robotic answers and the wise guy attitude of the witness, but the complete collapse of the senatorial integrity of the Republicans on that committee and on every Senate committee who allow the worst clowns in the Trump Cabinet to refuse to answer questions. In the committee and actually try to insult Democratic senators. We have never seen this before. This didn't happen during the first Trump presidency. And Chuck Grassley, the 92 year old Republican chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, who is healthy and well on his way to completing his current Senate term at age 96, knows better. I knew Chuck Grassley well in the 1990s when he was a not so senior member on the minority side of the Senate Finance Committee. And I was the staff director of that committee. And I fully respected Senator Grassley then. He was the second most conservative member of the committee. And I thought at the time that his votes against the policies that, that the Democratic chairman I served, Senator Moynihan, were principled Republican votes. And if Bill Clinton's Treasury Secretary or Bill Clinton's Secretary of Health and Human Services came to our committee and refused to answer any of Chuck Grassley's questions, Chairman Moynihan would have interceded and forced the Democratic witness to answer the Republican Senator's question, as would every other Democratic chair on every other Senate committee at that time. Congressional hearings didn't get the kind of attention then that they get now. And so much of the country has no idea how shocking it is for people with longer experience in the Senate to watch Senate Republicans flatten their integrity, flatten their institutional loyalty, and flatten their egos, all in service to whatever lie Donald Trump wants his Cabinet members to tell that day. Yes, Pam Bundy's conduct in Tuesday's hearing was disgraceful to me. But even more disgraceful was the now deeply cowardly Chuck Grassley and every Republican member of that committee silently supporting the grotesque behavior of a Trump Cabinet member who. Who tries to so fully personify Donald Trump in her poisonous attitude as a witness. Our next guest, who began working in the Senate 20 years before I did and knows the Senate better than I do, says that what the Republicans in the Senate have lost is what he calls institutional patriotism. Joining us now is congressional historian Norm Ornstein. He's an emeritus scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. Norm, thank you very much for joining us tonight. And in something you wrote and sent to me earlier this week, I discovered that phrase institutional patriotism, and realized that perfectly expresses what has been lost. Tell us what institutional patriotism is and how you saw it in the past in the Senate.

[G]

So, you know, as you said, Lawrence, I came there in 1970. I worked with dozens and dozens of Republican senators and of course, with Democrats. And what struck me about the Senate, and it's why you and I have loved this institution, along with our friend Ira Shapiro. People who've been around the institution for a long time because it was a place they revered. They understood their role. They could be fierce partisans and they could support their presidents, but there was a line that wasn't crossed. You supported your own independent role, whether it was advice and consent or oversight or ethics. They stood for the Senate and its role and understood what a special place it was. And that's true for some of these people who are there now, as you had with Chuck Grassley, I had with John Cornyn, who you just talked about a little while ago, working on continuity of government issues. But there isn't a single one of them now who has any level of respect for their own institution. You know, what you played with Pam Bondi is one part of it. She took every single question. Adam Schiff, who was on with you the other night, expressed it better than the others, refused to answer every single question, but accompanied it for every senator with character assassination. Every Democrat, not one Republican, stood up for their colleagues. None of them did anything in their questions to suggest that there was any oversight. And you put that together with how they've abandoned advice and consent tonight, yet another outrage. Every Republican senator blocking an amendment to keep Trump from getting over a billion dollars to refurbish that jet that he has taken from Qatar that he will have for his personal use after he leaves office. And it's astonishing, disheartening, disgraceful, and it's a good part of the reason why. The guardrails that we hope would be in place to guard against an autocrat, a corrupt autocrat, a grifting autocrat, are just not there. And the one place I would have thought was going to be the best hope that we would have.

[F]

Yeah.

[B]

And, Norm, we've seen a bunch of reasons why House and Senate, especially chairman, have stood up to presidents in their own party all the time, both privately and publicly, if necessary. They preferred to communicate it privately, but sometimes it had to go public. And they would vote against their ideas. They didn't fear that. They knew that the next day they'd all be working together again on something else. This complete devotion to Donald Trump is something we never saw before.

[G]

No. And what's also the case is that if anything mattered to senators inside, it was integrity. It was their own word. Your word is your bond. The bait and switch that they've done with these illegal and absolutely appalling. Rescissions. Having an agreement that you've done with your colleagues and not standing behind it is another example of the deterioration of the fundamental norms of the Senate. You know, that term institutional patriotism was coined in 1960 by Donald R. Matthews, a political scientist who wrote a definitive book on the Senate at the time. And I read it as a graduate student, and it's what brought me to the Senate in the first place when I worked there in 1970. I saw it again when I worked there as a staff director when the committee system was reorganized. I've seen it over many decades, and it's gone now. And the fact that we don't have a single one of them we can rely on is appalling and astonishing.

[B]

Norm Ornstein, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[G]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[B]

We'll be right back. Norm Ornstein gets tonight's last word.

[A]

If you're a smoker or dipper ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zyn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zyn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus Zyn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zyn. Check out Zinn. Com Find to find Zinn at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.