Lawrence: Matt Gaetz cannot possibly survive a Senate confirmation hearing

Summary

Summary of "Lawrence: Matt Gaetz cannot possibly survive a Senate confirmation hearing"

The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell – Episode Released November 20, 2024

In this pivotal episode, Lawrence O'Donnell delves deep into the controversial Senate confirmation hearing of Representative Matt Gaetz. Drawing from his extensive political experience, O'Donnell dissects the mounting evidence against Gaetz, the strategic missteps in his nomination process, and the broader implications for American politics.

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1. Introduction: The Unlikely Nominee

Lawrence O'Donnell sets a foreboding tone early in the episode, predicting that Matt Gaetz's Senate confirmation is on the brink of failure due to serious allegations against him.

• O'Donnell [01:13]:
  "I firmly believe that Matt Gaetz cannot possibly survive a Senate confirmation hearing."

2. Allegations and Evidence: Testimonies Against Gaetz

The core of the episode revolves around the testimonies presented against Matt Gaetz. O'Donnell introduces Joel Leppard, an attorney representing two young women who have testified before the House Ethics Committee about Gaetz's misconduct.

• Joel Leppard [12:11]:
  "I'm here strictly on behalf of my clients. They have provided so much testimony both to the DOJ back in 2020, they provided testimony before the grand jury also in 2020."

Leppard elaborates on the nature of the accusations:

• Sexual Misconduct: Gaetz is accused of engaging in sexual activities with a 17-year-old girl in Florida, where the age of consent is 18.

• Financial Transactions: The House Ethics Committee uncovered substantial financial transactions, including over $6,000 and $4,000 in payments from Gaetz to the two women.

• Reluctant Witnesses: The young women, under threat of perjury, have expressed their desire to remain private and avoid further public scrutiny.

• Leppard [25:10]:
  "When my clients testified to the House earlier this year, the amounts that were provided on the screen during their testimony by the House was from one client, over 6,000 in payments directly from Representative Gaetz to my client."

3. The Role of Elon Musk: Failed Lobbying Efforts

O'Donnell critiques Elon Musk's attempts to influence Gaetz's nomination, highlighting Musk's broader struggles in Washington and his unsuccessful lobbying efforts.

• O'Donnell [10:30]:
  "No one can help him now, not even his new cheerleader, Elon Musk."

He underscores Musk's failed attempts to secure Howard Lutnick as Secretary of Commerce and his ineffective support for Gaetz, illustrating the limited sway high-profile individuals have in such political processes.

4. Anticipating the Senate Hearing: Survival of the Nominee

O'Donnell anticipates the grueling Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, emphasizing the weight of the evidence Gaetz faces and the improbability of his confirmation.

• O'Donnell [36:31]:
  "Going into this hearing with Matt Gaetz being asked, how many times did you have sex with the 17 year old and how much money did you pay the 17 year old? It just looks inconceivable to me."

5. Expert Insight: Andrew Weissman's Analysis

Bringing in former FBI general counsel and legal analyst Andrew Weissman, the discussion deepens with an expert assessment of the credibility and impact of the evidence against Gaetz.

• Weissman [33:31]:
  "There may be much more, because one of the things you would say as a prosecutor is it all matches. One corroborates the other."

Weissman highlights the consistency of testimonies, financial evidence, and potential additional witnesses, all converging to undermine Gaetz's standing.

• Weissman [35:53]:
  "This is so potentially explosive with respect to somebody who is being nominated to be the chief law enforcement officer of the United States of America."

6. Political Implications and Senate Dynamics

O'Donnell discusses the broader political ramifications, noting that Gaetz is viewed unfavorably even within his own party. The Senate's dynamics are such that a mere handful of Republican senators opposing Gaetz could doom his nomination.

• O'Donnell [37:35]:
  "It doesn't help him that he's the most despised Republican member of the House of Representatives. By Republicans."

7. Additional Segments: Media Perspectives and Voter Insights

While the primary focus remains on Gaetz, the episode also touches upon media coverage and voter behavior, featuring insights from Claire Malone of The New Yorker. Malone discusses the disconnect between media narratives and the lived experiences of voters, highlighting the complexities of political reporting in the modern era.

• O'Donnell [43:51]:
  "How do you cover this person, this Donald Trump thing? Because it is unlike anything any candidate we've had to cover before."

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Conclusion: The Unfolding Drama

As the episode wraps up, O'Donnell reiterates the slim chances of Gaetz's confirmation amidst the overwhelming evidence and internal dissent within the Republican Senate ranks. The discussion underscores a critical moment in American politics, reflecting on accountability, the power of legislative scrutiny, and the intricate dance between personal misconduct and public service.

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This episode serves as a comprehensive examination of Matt Gaetz's nomination challenges, blending firsthand testimonies, expert analysis, and sharp political commentary to provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the unfolding situation.

Transcript

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[Ashley Flowers]

True crime podcasts. There is no shortage to consume. And if you're like me, you've consumed them all. I'm Ashley Flowers, creator and host of the number one true crime podcast, Crime Junkie. Every Monday we cover a case in a way that's not like you've heard before because I have built a one of a kind team of investigative journalists dedicated to conducting original reporting, making sure that you get the inside scoop. Listen to hundreds of Crime Junkie episodes now, wherever you get your podcasts. Now it's time for the Last word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Good evening, Alex. We're going to be on the worst nomination Donald Trump has delivered, which is.

[Ashley Flowers]

The Matt that's a high bar.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, for me it's the Matt Gaetz nomination and I think it will be for everyone. If it isn't already. It will be for everyone when you hear from the attorney who represents two of the young women who testified to the House Judiciary Committee for several hours under oath about what Matt Gaetz did with them and their eyewitness testimony about what he did with a 17 year old girl. Alex, I do not believe that the Gates nomination can possibly survive what we're about to hear from this attorney who represents those two witnesses.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay, Lawrence, I'm going to be watching. That's a big tease.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Okay, thanks, Alex.

[Ashley Flowers]

Have a great show.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. Well, our first guest tonight, attorney Joel Leppard, wants to spare his clients, two young women, the burden of testifying publicly on worldwide television against Matt Gaetz at his Senate Judiciary Committee confirmation hearing. Their testimony is already available to the Senate Judiciary Committee because they testified for several hours to the House Ethics Committee, which has written a full report of their testimony that includes just how much money Matt Gaetz paid them for sex, just how many thousands of dollars he paid each one of them. And that House Ethics Committee report includes eyewitness testimony of Matt Gaetz having sex with a 17 year old girl in the state of Florida, where the age of consent is 18 years old. And when you hear what our first Guest has to say tonight you will understand why. I now, as of tonight, firmly believe that Matt Gaetz cannot possibly survive a Senate confirmation hearing. Matt Gaetz will not be confirmed. Cannot be confirmed in the United States Senate. Matt Gaetz cannot survive the testimony that already exists against him from the young women he paid to have sex with at parties. And no one can help him now, not even his new cheerleader, Elon Musk. And that's why it's important to know that today, Elon Musk lost again. Elon Musk's dramatic public failures as a lobbyist continue while Donald Trump continues to take Musk with him everywhere he goes, the same way that President Franklin Delano Roosevelt always took his little puppy dog with him everywhere he went. But Elon Musk, like Donald Trump's children before him, is learning the hard way that being at Donald Trump's side doesn't mean he's listening to you. Today's big public loss for Elon Musk was Donald Trump's selection of Howard Lutnick as the next Secretary of Commerce. The loss for Elon Musk in that is that he was publicly lobbying through social media posts in favor of Howard Letnick getting a different job. He wanted him to get Secretary of the treasury, but Elon Musk lost. And now his candidate is not going to get Treasury Secretary. Elon Musk will not have the Treasury Secretary that he wanted. Donald Trump hasn't chosen the treasury secretary yet. The Treasury Secretary could be hugely important to Elon Musk's fortune in Bitcoin. Elon Musk clearly wants a Treasury Secretary who will do whatever he can to make Bitcoin even more profitable for Elon Musk. And so Elon Musk lobbied Donald Trump both publicly and privately, urging him to choose Howard Lutnick. And Donald Trump said, no, that is exactly how it's going to work. When Elon Musk and his sidekick Vivek Ramaswamy, who will play Robin to Musk's Batman, advised Donald Trump on what budget items the President should cut. Elon Musk will then discover that the President doesn't have the power to cut the budget. That power belongs exclusively to Congress. And Elon Musk will then have to lobby Congress to cut the budget. Elon Musk has promised to cut $2 trillion from the budget of the United States of America. And I have promised you that that will not happen. In fact, anyone who knows anything about the budget of the United States can promise you that that will not happen. It is highly doubtful that Elon Musk will be able to take credit for any budget cuts in the American government, even though Donald Trump has assigned him the title of a job that does not exist, the director of the Department of Government Efficiency. And as I've reported here before, that job was described by Donald Trump as a purely advisory assignment in a fictional department that does not exist. And so that just makes Elon Musk another Washington lobbyist trying to get the Congress and the president to agree on budget cuts that he suggests. And in one of Musk's big defeats as a public lobbyist this season, one of his first big defeats, Elon Musk saw and felt what the Republicans in the United States Senate think of him. After Elon Musk told them, ordered them to elect Florida Senator Rick Scott as the Republican Senate Majority Leader. Rick Scott came in last of three candidates in that election. And Republican senators ignored Elon Musk and voted for the long time presumed heir apparent of Mitch McConnell, Senator John Thune of South Dakota. And those Republican senators cast those votes for John Thune after Elon Musk publicly said Republican Senator Thune is the top choice of Democrats. And today, lobbyist Elon Musk once again offered his full support for Matt Gaetz for Attorney General of the United States. And now you know that support means nothing in the United States Senate. Matt Gaetz's future is now completely up to Republicans in the United States Senate who have already shown how willing they are to reject lobbying from Elon Musk, who today said this. As for these accusations against him, I consider them worth less than nothing. Under our laws, a man is considered innocent until proven guilty. If A.G. garland, an unprincipled douchebag, could have secured a conviction against Gates, he would have. But he knew he could not. Case closed. The only audience for that tweet is the United States Senate. And that is not the way Republican senators see federal criminal investigations of members of the House of Representatives for possible sex trafficking and possible criminal drug use. In the federal investigation, Elon Musk refers to Matt Gaetz's best friend. Joel Greenberg pleaded guilty to six federal offenses. Sex trafficking of a child, illegally producing a false identification document, aggravated identity theft, wire fraud, stalking, and conspiracy. Matt Gaetz best friend Joel Greenberg is now serving a prison sentence of 11 years for those crimes. Not all cases of men paying for sex meet the federal criminal standard of proof for federal sex trafficking charges. And so if Matt Gaetz escaped those federal charges, that does not mean that he did not, for example, commit statutory rape. And the Ethics Committee evidence in this case, as you will Hear in a moment, it is that while he was a member of Congress, Matt Gaetz in the state of Florida had sex with a 17 year old girl. In the state of Florida, the age of consent is 18. And so that incident may not be sex trafficking, but it does fit the age elements of statutory rape in Florida. In the under oath testimony that two young women gave to the House Ethics Committee, you will hear that when Matt Gaetz discovered The girl was 17 years old, he patiently stopped having sex with her until she turned 18. Elon Musk was there at the creation of the Gates for Attorney General. Campaign reports in the New York Times and elsewhere indicate that a plot was hatched on Donald Trump's plane. Among the three people in Trump world most disconnected from Donald Trump, Elon Musk and Matt Gaetz. The three of them thought Matt Gaetz for Attorney General was a brilliant idea. Reporting indicates the plot was hatched while Donald Trump's next White House Chief of staff, the politically professional and astute Susie Wiles, was in another section of the plane. And now the New York Times is reporting that one of the geniuses who came up with the Gates for Attorney General idea now thinks he won't get confirmed. In his private conversations over the past few days, President elect Donald J. Trump has admitted that his besieged choice for Attorney General, Matt Gaetz, has less than even odds of being confirmed by the Senate. So on the same day that failed lobbyist Elon Musk goes all out in his public lobbying of the United States Senate for Matt Gaetz, Donald Trump allows it to be leaked to the New York Times that Donald Trump doesn't think Gates is going to get confirmed. Which one of them do you think is right? The Gates nomination was in trouble from the minute it was announced. But since then, no one has delivered more ammunition to the United States Senate to use against Matt Gaetz in the confirmation process than our next guest. Leading off our discussion tonight is Joel Leppard. He is an attorney representing two women who testified to the House Ethics Committee about Matt Gates. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it. So why are you here? Why are you discussing this publicly?

[Joel Leppard]

I'm here strictly on behalf of my clients. They have provided so much testimony both to the DOJ back in 2020, they provided testimony before the grand jury also in 2020.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And that, to be clear, is the sex trafficking investigation.

[Joel Leppard]

That's my understanding, yes. They testified to the House this year about that DOJ investigation. They have hours of testimony and hundreds of documents to the House. And I'm here so that they do not have to provide additional testimony to the Senate.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So you believe it's in your client's interest and your clients don't want to testify to the Senate?

[Joel Leppard]

That's right. Their interest. I'm sorry, their interests are to remain private, to go back about their lives as young, 20 something individuals. They really don't have a dog in this fight.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And so releasing the Ethics Committee report, for example, to the Senate could save your clients from having to testify.

[Joel Leppard]

Their worst case scenario would be to be forced to testify on the floor of the Senate on national television and to have their identities made known to the public. They've already been facing intense scrutiny and only the media knows their names. They've had individuals jump out of the bushes, they've been stalked, they've been harassed, and frankly, they're concerned about their personal well being if their identity became public.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Well, here is that worst case scenario. And I don't think this is what John Cornyn, I don't think Texas Senator John Cornyn realizes what you've just said when he said this. He said this the other day about your clients testifying to the Senate Judiciary Committee. Let's listen to this. Well, the truth is the information is.

[Joel Leppard]

Going to come out one way or the other.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So I guess the more I thought about it, it's not critical that they report because we know roughly who the witness are and I assume they'll be called before the Judiciary Committee. So he's a senior and experienced Republican Senator on the Judiciary Committee, and he was at first insisting you have to give us the House Ethics report. And now he's saying, well, it's not so important because we can just call these witnesses. He thinks we can just call your clients.

[Joel Leppard]

You know, to say that we can just call the clients again is incredibly wrongheaded. The House has been investigating a very thorough and very professional investigation over the last six months. Presumably their investigation would be hundreds of pages long. There's no way that a Senate should or could conduct such a thorough investigation that's already been conducted on the same topic. It would be pointless and frankly fruitless for the Senate to conduct another investigation.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So there's a report of that. Some of the committee's. The Ethics Committee's information has been hacked. A hacker has gotten in there and gotten some of the evidence and exhibits possibly involving your clients. None of that has leaked yet, but it seems extremely likely that this report will become available to the Senate. And when the Senate gets that report, when John Cornyn reads that report, assuming he does, assuming it gets there, what is the story that he will learn from your two clients in that report?

[Joel Leppard]

You know, the story is basically two individuals who were asked to call and testify before the House truthfully, and that's what they did. But as to how the House kind of examined or questioned my witness, essentially they took the criteria of their examination of what they were called to answer the question, did Representative Gates engage in improper sexual actions? Did he engage in illegal drug use, possession, consumption and purchase? And my clients did answer questions about that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And was the answer yes, that he did engage in illegal drug use?

[Joel Leppard]

Yes. So there were a lot of questions about the illegal drug use. My clients testified that each one of the events that they went to with Representative Gates, that ecstasy was present, that marijuana, which for him I presumably would be illegal because he was purchasing it from, not a medical dispensary. They were also questioned and they answered honestly. Did you recall a specific incident six or seven years ago wherein you remember Representative Gates putting a Molly pill in his mouth? And they said they did not recall that. However, the House did follow up and say, are you familiar with the signs of someone who's, who's on X? And they said, yes, he's up all night having sex. He's, you know, really excitable, you know, the same kind of symptoms that everyone else is kind of exhibiting. So they believe that he did appear to be on drugs.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And your clients, these two women were testifying under oath.

[Joel Leppard]

Yeah, that's right. They also provided text messages to the House where he was requesting party favors. He described a party favor mecca. He described party favors in three different text messages where he's essentially requesting that the party favors be present at the events.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

What's a party favor? What's he talking about?

[Joel Leppard]

Well, as a criminal defense lawyer, when someone's requesting that drugs be present or if they're purchasing drugs, they're not going to say, please give me some drugs or I'd like five grams of heroin. So those are code words, essentially.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And you represented just two witnesses to the committee. And is it your understanding that there were more witnesses and how many more possibly young women witnesses were there?

[Joel Leppard]

Yeah. So the House issued a statement that there were over a dozen witnesses. So my clients were just two out of the over a dozen witnesses. So my clients are just a small piece of the larger puzzle of what would come out in the House report, hopefully tomorrow.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And to be clear, you do not represent the 17 year old girl who is described in this testimony.

[Joel Leppard]

That's correct. Both of my clients were above the age of 18 for all irrelevant purposes.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

But they are friends with and were friends with that girl who was 17 at the time?

[Joel Leppard]

That's right. My client, my first client, who testified that she saw the underage individual having sex. They were actually friends at the time and had been friends for several years.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

What is the setting in which she sees the other girl, the 17 year old girl, having sex with Matt Gaetz?

[Joel Leppard]

Right. So she testified to Congress that she was invited to a party at Christopher Dolber's house. He was a representative in Florida. And she was invited to that party by Joel Greenberg vis a vis her friend, who had met Joel Greenberg on Seeking Ranger Services.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joel Greenberg, who's now in prison?

[Joel Leppard]

That's correct, yeah. And when she arrived, she testified that she had sex with Representative Gates within minutes of arriving.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Within minutes of arriving?

[Joel Leppard]

Within minutes of arriving, yes. She was introduced to him. Representative Gates took her upstairs into a room and they had sex in one of the bedrooms upstairs.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And was that a prearranged pay for sex encounter?

[Joel Leppard]

So that situation was a situation that Joel Greenberg would have arranged ahead of time. There was no payment from Representative Gates at that particular time. My clients testified that the payments came later on at separate events.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And after that in that setting. Is that when your client sees the 17 year old girl?

[Joel Leppard]

So it was at that same event back In July of 2017, at another time later on in the party, she was walking outside towards the pool area. She looked to her right and she saw her friend, who was 17 at the time, having sex with Representative Gates.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Roughly how long is that after he's had sex with the first girl?

[Joel Leppard]

I don't resolve the exact timeframe, but it wasn't immediately after it would have been.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

But it's the same event.

[Joel Leppard]

Exactly.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's the same event. And your client knew that that girl is 17?

[Joel Leppard]

That's right. She was aware that her friend was under 17 as they went to high school together.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

They went to high school together and that 17 year old was still in high school?

[Joel Leppard]

That's right.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And somewhere in the evidence to the Ethics Committee, someone seemed to suggest, possibly one of your clients, that when Congressman Gates found out that she was 17, he then stopped having sex with her.

[Joel Leppard]

Actually, my client did testify to that fact to the House. She said that her understanding was that Representative Gates was not aware that her friend was 18. I'm sorry, that was under the age of 18. But then when she then represented Gates, found out that they seized all sexual relationship and didn't continue that until after she was 18.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

There was some interstate travel described in this testimony. And I just want to show an appearance of Congressman Gates, November 9, 2018, when he is on Fox. Let's just take a look at this. Because while he's doing this appearance, according to the testimony, apparently two of these girls are in New York with him. Let's look at this. I think that Elizabeth Warren is to the 2020 election what Chris Christie was.

[Carl's Jr. Advertisement]

To the 2016 election.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I think had she campaigned earlier, she would have been able to coalesce that key constituency within the Democratic Party that leans farthest to the left. So that's the 12 noon show on Fox. What happened after that?

[Joel Leppard]

Was that in November of 2019?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah.

[Joel Leppard]

Okay. I don't. My clients testified that they went to New York in January of 2019. So I'm not sure. I'm not sure that's the right clip. I just saw that on there. But they did testify that they observed. I'm sorry, that they traveled up to New York. They received a tour of the facility with representative at Fox.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

They went to Fox while he was doing a Fox appearance. Like that sort of thing?

[Joel Leppard]

Exactly. Exactly that sort of thing. And they received a tour and they waited in essentially a green room and afterwards they went on to a show.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Later on, did he introduce them to people working at Fox?

[Joel Leppard]

That actually was a question that the House had. And they didn't recall being introduced to anyone of note.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And so in that interstate travel, it did not involve anyone under the age of 17?

[Joel Leppard]

That's correct. Everyone was above the age of majority at that time.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Was there anything that you're aware of in the federal sex trafficking laws, given that this did involve, at certain points or many points, sex that Matt Gaetz was paying for? Was there any exposure in that kind of interstate travel to New York that might have interested the prosecutors on a sex trafficking case?

[Joel Leppard]

Well, I can't speak to what was in the federal prosecutors minds at the time. There's some disagreement among lawyers about what really constitutes under. Under the Mann Act. But I imagine the prosecutors were interested in it. But I think they were probably concerned with the underage, which is the underage situation, because when you have Venmo transactions that meets the standard for the interstate travel because of the Venmo and electronic wires for the underage.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We're going to squeeze in a quick commercial break right here. We're going to be back with Joel Leopard with more on the investigation of Congressman Matt Gaetz. We'll be right back.

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[Ashley Flowers]

Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen. You can listen to Jeff Lewis Live at home or anywhere you are. Download the SiriusXM app for over 425 channels of ad free music, sports, entertainment and more. Subscribe now and get 3 months free offer details apply.

[Yara Shahidi]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Back with us, Joel Leopard, the attorney representing two women who testified to the House Ethics Committee and their investigation of Matt Gaetz. How much money was involved in the paying for sex with your two clients?

[Joel Leppard]

So when my clients testified to the House earlier this year, back in April and May, the House actually acquired records, presumably by subpoena from Representative Gates. The amounts that were provided on the screen during their testimony by the House was from one client, over 6,000 in payments directly from Representative Gates to my client. And the other amount was a little over 4,000 directly from Representative Gates to my client.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So you're sitting there with your clients as they testify one at a time and you discover then up on a screen in that hearing room that the Ethics Committee has all these Venmo payments and other forms of payment, electronic payment for from Matt Gates to your client. They're just staring at the amount of money that he's paid them.

[Joel Leppard]

We were actually surprised because the numbers that we had thought was actually lower. The girls didn't of course keep records. We were provided numbers. In a civil related civil case that Representative Dorworth brought against Joel Greenberg and the minor for defamation. And so we thought that number was actually lower. And the House investigation was much more thorough. And they uncovered payments that we were not aware of. And so the investigation obviously was incredibly thorough. And so basically the House went through line by line and asked my clients, what was this transaction for, what was that for? And kind of cross referenced their notes and looked at, okay, well, yes, this payment was the first sex on this event, this was for this particular event, and so on.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So Matt Gates said this, told Tucker Carlson, as you know, that him having sex with the 17 year old girl, his words for that, he said, this is totally false. Do you believe that? The information in the House Ethics Committee proves that as a fact.

[Joel Leppard]

You know, I wasn't present for the minor's testimony, but I can tell you that my client's testimony was incredibly credible.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's eyewitness testimony. It's eyewitness testimony of Matt Gaetz having sex with a 17 year old.

[Joel Leppard]

That's right. And they have no motivation to lie. If they had a choice, they would have never testified at all.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

They were reluctant witnesses. They didn't want to be there.

[Joel Leppard]

Exactly. They had no desire to be called in to testify. But here they are. They testified truthfully.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Reluctant witnesses. They're there, they're under oath. They know the worst thing that can happen to them in that room is to walk out of there with any risk of any kind of perjury.

[Joel Leppard]

We talked about that quite a bit. And in fact, my clients were much more conservative about they were. They had no desire to overreach. So if they had any doubt in the mind about whether or not they should testify to it, they said they did not recall.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

If you were representing your clients in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee in this confirmation hearing and you were allowed to make an opening statement on their behalf before their testimony or instead of their testimony, what would you tell those senators?

[Joel Leppard]

See, the thing about opening statements is when you're taking an action as an advocate in this role, my job is to counsel my clients.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Let me just call it a presentation. What do you think the proper presentation of these facts would include to the committee?

[Joel Leppard]

Sure. So essentially, the evidence that the committee would see from my two clients is two individuals over the course of 2017 to January of 2019, just a course of conduct that has been proven through text messages, that's been backed up by multiple witnesses. This is really a situation where you have lots of witnesses who are all saying the same thing. You've got text messages, you've got photographs, you've got a video of my client at Christopher Dorworth's house where they said that she wasn't there at all. You've got gate records, you've got Venmo payments. You've got really conclusive evidence. And again, my clients are just a small piece of the puzzle. So I would imagine when you put it all together, it's going to paint a pretty conclusive picture about what actually happened.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Do you have any idea about who those other witnesses were to the Ethics Committee? Do you know that they were other women?

[Joel Leppard]

Yeah, I do know that other women testified. It was not two women and 10 men, of course, but I wouldn't want to reveal their identity.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

But you know that they were women in similar situations to your clients, women being paid for sex or involved in sex at these kinds of.

[Joel Leppard]

I wasn't present for the testimony, but I have spoken with other lawyers and that's my understanding.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joel Leopard, thank you very much for joining us tonight with this Ethics Committee report on the verge of being made public. It may be made public largely due to your presentations here tonight. Thank you very much for joining us.

[Joel Leppard]

Thanks for having me.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Really appreciate it. Thank you. And coming up, former federal prosecutor Andrew Weissman will join us to describe what Matt Gaetz could do as attorney general with Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyers now chosen for the number two and number three jobs in the Justice Department. And we will get Andrew's evaluation of the Ethics Committee evidence against Matt Gaetz. That's next.

[Yara Shahidi]

Hey, I'm Yara Shahidi and I'm the host of the Optimist Project. This is the podcast that asks what gives you hope. Each week I sit down with changemakers you may or may not know from comedy, music, academia and more to uncover what inspires them to create a better tomorrow. Join us as we find out ways that we can cultivate optimism in our own lives. You can find the Optimist Project wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast.

[Angie Hicks]

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie One thing I've learned is that you buy a house but you make it a home. And for decades, Angie's helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the project that matter. Get all your jobs done [e-mail].

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Here is a preview of Matt Gaetz's testimony at his Senate confirmation hearing. They're saying there is a 17 year.

[Andrew Weissman]

Old girl who you had a relationship with.

[Joel Leppard]

Is that true? And who are they?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Who is this girl?

[Joel Leppard]

What are they talking about?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The New York Times.

[Joel Leppard]

The person doesn't exist.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I have not had a relationship with.

[Joel Leppard]

A 17 year old.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That is totally false. Joining us now is Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel and former chief of the criminal division in the Eastern District of New York. He's an MSNBC legal analyst and co author of the New York Times best selling book the Trump Indictments. And Andrew, the Testimony about this 17 year old girl is as we just heard from attorney Joel Leppard, one of his clients knows the 17 year old girl, sees the 17 year old girl across the room having sex with Matt Gaetz at a party. He tells you where the party was. The party he says was at the home of a former Republican congressman at the time this guy left the Congress in 2012. Christopher Dorworth. Dorworth has testified elsewhere under oath. I wasn't home. So that's, that's his testimony. He's not helping. He's just saying I wasn't home. That's the entirety of his hurting. He's not helping. He's not saying there wasn't a party at my house. He's saying I was at home. So that's all the testimony we know about right now about that particular situation. Obviously the standards for Senate confirmation are much looser than a courtroom. You don't need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. You actually just need doubt. You just need doubt that this person is going to be able to do a good job because of what you've just heard about. But evaluating this evidence for credibility, just for credibility standards. Say you were counsel to the committee or something. What do you see in this evidence as we know it now in terms of credibility?

[Andrew Weissman]

Well, one of the things you do look at for credibility is you look at sort of what is the constellation because you want to see what's the corroboration. So we don't have all of those pieces, but there's at least one potential cooperator, as you mentioned, Joel Greenberg. There seem to be text messages, there seems to be payments and there seems to be a host of women of which we have a report from one counsel of just two of what they say. So that's sort of already something where you're saying, does that all sort of line up? And there may be much more, because one of the things you would say as a prosecutor is it all matches. One corroborates the other. Something I was struck by in terms of credibility was in looking at and assessing credibility. Obviously we don't have them in front of us and that's the most important thing. But I was struck by the fact that the counselor said that their client was going out of the way to like they didn't want to be there.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Right.

[Andrew Weissman]

This was that there's a downside if they lie, but mostly that he did not know that she was 17. And that's the kind of thing that. That has the hallmark of somebody who is not trying to just say the very worst thing about Matt Gaetz. I have to say in the clip you played, that puts a lot of weight or focus on the word relationship, because he said, I didn't have a relationship with the 17 year old. I mean, that is playing kind of fast and loose. It turns out there is hard evidence that in fact there was this affair or encounter, even if he can say, well, it wasn't a relationship. This reminds me so much of the case that we just had because remember, we're talking about a nomination from a person who is the president elect who has been found guilty of 34 felonies and he's been found liable for sexual assault. And one of the felony is related to exactly this kind of. This kind of behavior. But there it was consensual and it was not with a minor here. This is so potentially explosive with respect to somebody who is being nominated to be the chief law enforcement officer of the United States of America.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. And in vote count in the Senate, it just means you need four. You just need four Republican senators to say, I'm not voting for this guy. And that's the end of that nomination. And usually you're aware of that before you even go into the hearing process. You'll probably have at least two publicly announced and maybe more. And at that point, going into this hearing with Matt Gaetz being asked, how many times did you have sex with the 17 year old and how much money did you pay the 17 year old? It just looks inconceivable to me.

[Andrew Weissman]

Well, he could get caught in a lie. You know, that's where we're.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Why would he want to go in that room under oath? Yeah.

[Andrew Weissman]

I mean, unless he was assured that he was going to become attorney general. And I have to say for the senators in the position, they have to be wondering if he is in fact, confirmed, how is he going to wield his power? In other words, is he going to go after people who are enemies? For, in other words, he has enormous power in terms of who to pursue at the end of the day. Of course, a jury has to make findings, but he can decide, you know, that friends are not going to be pursued for political corruption or economic corruption, but enemies and people who he thinks have slighted him, whether in the House or the Senate, are people could be the wrong end of, you know, the stick in terms of what he's looking at. And so not having that kind of reputation, I would think would really be something that would hurt him with senators who are thinking about what would happen to them going forward.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, it doesn't help him that he's the most despised Republican member of the House of Representatives. By Republicans. I mean, this is when that stuff really matters. Andrew Weissman, thank you very much for joining us tonight. And coming up, our next guest did the only kind of presidential campaign reporting that really matters. The New Yorker's Claire Malone actually got out there in Pennsylvania and talked to real voters. Claire Malone will join us next. Our next guest, Claire Malone did some of the most important campaign reporting this year for the New Yorker, including a profile of the hopeless presidential candidate Robert Kennedy, Jr. Who is now the very hopeful possible Secretary of Health and Human Services, who would be the single most difficult person ever to get through the Senate confirmation process were it not for some of Donald Trump's other choices for his Cabinet, including obviously, Matt Gaetz. Like Matt gaetz, Robert Kennedy, Jr. Could face questions about possible abuse of young women, including a babysitter who now accuses Kennedy of groping her. When that accusation became public this summer, Robert Kennedy wrote an apology to the former babysitter saying, quote, if I hurt you, it was inadvertent. I feel badly for doing so. In the final weeks of the campaign, Claire Malone did the only kind of reporting that really matters at that stage. She talked to real voters in a compelling piece titled the Fight Over Truth in a blue collar Pennsylvania county. In Lackawanna County, Claire Malone found a woman Trump voter who's a former Planned Parenthood volunteer and a firm believer in reproductive rights for women. And that woman said, I think that Trump is for women's reproductive rights. The Supreme Court is not just one justice, okay? It's a group of nine. And they talk about things together. So they found that Roe vs. Wade should really be up to the states. Claire Malone's reporting with Pennsylvania voters seems to be a precursor of Nathan Heller's post election New Yorker article titled Republican Victory and the Ambiance of Information, which we discussed on this program last night. The Ambiance of information describes how information flows in our society. Quote, information travels differently across the population. Ideas that used to come from local newspapers or TV and drift around a community now come along an unpredictable path. Detail, even when it's available, doesn't travel widely. Big, sloppy notions do. After the election, Claire Malone told the Columbia Journalism Review, a lot of the president elect's talking points make their way into the conversation with voters. Joining us now is Claire Malone, staff writer for the New Yorker. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. I want to go to Lackawanna because that reporting was so fascinating. And that woman who I just quoted, I think reveals what most of the media coverage of elections literally cannot comprehend. Like, just doesn't have the facility to comprehend that there's a committed Planned Parenthood woman in Pennsylvania who's voting for Trump because of her view of the Supreme Court, which is not what anyone in the organization. That's not the way Planned Parenthood organization sees the Supreme Court. And you see that she thinks Trump's okay on the abortion issue for her. She's also living in a state where she hasn't lost any rights.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah, I mean, this woman was, and I should say very smart, very organized, very capable, was a person who was kind of coordinating other Trump volunteers. And I think what she sort of said to me over the course of this day that I spent with her and with other people is Trump gets her values, the values of her community. She wasn't particularly adhering to any one talking point. And we kind of talked a lot about the abortion issue because I thought it was one to push on. And it was really interesting and sort of contradictory, obviously. But she really just, I mean, I always use the phrase political pheromones. She just likes the cut of Trump's jib. You know, even if he's a rich guy from Queens, Manhattan, wherever, he just gets her. Right. And that's what's important. And I think what was so interesting about the abortion question is Trump actually did a really effective job in sort of obfuscating. Right. Even Melania's book where she says she's pro choice, that was actually kind of canny political strategy. And that book was brought up to me. Right. So I think Trump kind of changed positions enough that people could almost project onto him what they want. Right. He's kind of on our team, and I'll project what my values are onto him. And he has, you know, he's very sui generis. Right. No other politician could really do this. But Trump kind of becomes this vessel for what people think. And I think he does sort of get the. He's inhabited the. I am the man of the working class. Right. I am your messenger. And people can put whatever they want into that bottle and he'll kind of send it out. So that was what really stuck with me.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So in your discussion with the Columbia Journalism Review, which I was really fascinated by, you were kind of groping toward trying to figure out, as we all are all the time, how do you cover this person, this Donald Trump thing? Because it is unlike anything any candidate we've had to cover before, unlike any president we've had to cover before. He's obviously going to continue to do things the way he does them. And somehow, is there a better way to deliver to those people in Lackawanna what Donald Trump's actual effect is? I was going to say position, but I want to leave that out and say, no, this is what the actual effect is. So that woman could understand. Well, actually, Donald Trump's three justices on the Supreme Court, that's really what did it.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah. Listen, this is the big, I think, existential question for all of us in mainstream media, by the way, if you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Don'T have the answer of exactly how we're supposed to improve our coverage, then. I don't know. I say that knowing. Listen, I don't know. I don't know.

[Angie Hicks]

I mean, I would say my thoughts. One, I think we, as the media broadly need to cover the root causes of what is essentially a class war in America right now. Right. People are saying elites in the media, elites in government don't understand us. And I think American media has to find more ways to write compellingly, not in an eat your vegetables way, about what's going on in Lackawanna, what's going on in Cleveland, wherever. And I think the death of local journalism in a lot of places. I mean, there's hundreds upon hundreds of counties throughout America that don't have a local news source. Right. And that. And that distorts people's view of American life. It makes you think that, yes, inflation was high, there were lots of pocketbook issues, but you're not kind of getting the. If you're only watching national news, if you're only watching msnbc if you're only watching, watching Fox, whatever it might be, you're only getting a slice of the picture. So I think one is learning how to cover root cause issues that affect everyday Americans in a compelling way, and that's hard. Then two, I think for someone like me at the New Yorker or for people at the New York Times or the Washington Post, you kind of have to realize that most people aren't going to read your articles. Right. And you have to start to think strategically about the way your reporting and the narratives that you've reported on are being metabolized by the media, just ecosystem in general. So for me, as a New Yorker, it's going on TV or, you know, what goes on TikTok or Instagram and is shared by people. And how does information make its way to people who don't have the time or the desire to read, you know, a 10,000 or even 1500 word piece?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I like your 10,000 word pieces. Thank you for them. And we didn't even get to your coverage of Robert Kennedy, which is absolutely fascinating. We might get to it in the confirmation process. Claire Malone, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Angie Hicks]

Thanks for having me.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We'll be right back. The New Yorker's Claire Malone gets tonight's last word.

[Ashley Flowers]

Hey, I'm journalist Sam Sanders. I'm poet Saeed Jones. And I'm producer Zach Stafford.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And we are the hosts of a.

[Andrew Weissman]

Podcast called Vibe Check.

[Ashley Flowers]

On Vibe Check, we talk about everything, news, culture and entertainment and how it all feels. That's right.

[Andrew Weissman]

We talk about any and everything on.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Our show, from real life issues like.

[Andrew Weissman]

Grief to music and movie critiques. And that barely scratches the surface.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yes, indeed. And it doesn't stop there. We have got a lot to say, so join our group, chat come to life, follow and listen to Vibe Check. Wherever you get your podcasts.