Lawrence: Musk vs. Trump. Trump's silence on Musk's budget bill attacks proves who’s afraid of whom

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell Episode: Musk vs. Trump. Trump's silence on Musk's budget bill attacks proves who’s afraid of whom
Release Date: June 5, 2025

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1. Introduction and Breaking News

[00:22] Jen Psaki opens the episode by highlighting the night's major topics:

• Donald Trump's New Travel Ban: A comprehensive ban targeting travelers from 12 countries with partial restrictions on an additional seven.
• Republican Budget Bill: Controversial legislation facing opposition from within the Republican Party.
• Elon Musk's Opposition: The tech mogul's vocal challenges against Trump's budget proposals.
• Impact on New York: Governor Kathy Hochul discusses the potential repercussions for New Yorkers.

2. Donald Trump's New Travel Ban

[00:22] Lawrence O'Donnell details Trump's latest executive order:

• Total Ban Countries: Afghanistan, Burma, Chad, Republic of Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Haiti, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and Yemen.
• Partial Ban Countries: Burundi, Cuba, Libra, Laos, Sierra Leone, Togo, Turkmenistan, and Venezuela.

[00:22] O'Donnell explains the rationale behind the ban:

"The claimed reason for the travel ban is the failure of the named countries to properly screen and vet travelers to the United States."

[00:22] He suggests ulterior motives:

"The other obvious reason for announcing the travel ban tonight that will take effect on Monday is to turn our attention away from Elon Musk's war on Donald Trump."

3. Elon Musk's Attack on Trump's Budget Bill

[01:34] Elon Musk initiates his opposition via Twitter, labeling the budget bill a "disgusting abomination."

[02:07] Musk continues his critique:

"It more than defeats all the cost savings achieved by the Department of Government Efficiency team at great personal cost and risk."

[02:50] Another critical tweet from Musk:

"Bankrupting America is not okay. Kill the bill."

[03:25] O'Donnell portrays Musk's actions as relentless:

"Elon Musk is using his loud social media voice to urge Republicans to kill the bill in a steady stream of angry and bitter tweets."

4. Republican Budget Bill and Internal Opposition

[11:08] Lawrence O'Donnell accuses Trump of misinformation:

"Donald Trump is just lying about the bill."

[11:25] Discussion shifts to Republican leadership struggles:

"Mike Johnson... is the kind of in over his head guy who's willing to tell you publicly who won't return his calls."

[11:53] O'Donnell reveals his own unsuccessful attempt to contact Musk:

"Well, I'll tell you, I called Elon. But I hope to talk to him today."

[15:35] Criticism of Republican leadership continues:

"Republican Senator Joshua Hawley... voted for work requirements being imposed on Medicaid, which will be used to kick people off Medicaid who are unable to find a job."

[16:10] Kathy Hochul underscores the severity:

"They're taking a wrecking ball against vulnerable children and families and senior citizens and people who are too sick to work."

5. Impact on New York State

[19:05] Governor Kathy Hochul elaborates on the consequences:

"If one single person, Mike Lawler, Elise Stefanik, anybody else who thinks they're running for higher office, any one of them had voted against this bill, it would have been dead."

[22:37] Focus on Medicaid and healthcare:

"Hospitals will lose $3 billion in the state of New York per year. We can't help solve that problem. This is federal dollars that we need to have here."

[23:47] Nursing Homes Impact:

"100,000 people in the state of New York who are in nursing homes will lose their Medicaid coverage."

[25:14] Discussion on Trump-imposed tariffs:

"The Trump tariff is devastating for the state of New York. We have a 450-mile shared border."

6. Donald Trump's Conversation with Vladimir Putin

[32:57] Michael McFaul critiques Trump's handling of foreign affairs:

"There was no pushback, nothing like they're about to attack Ukraine. What can I do?"

[34:32] McFaul assesses Ukraine's military actions:

"This particular operation... reinforced hitting military targets. If these were docked airplanes, that means they even avoided killing the crews of those airplanes when they hit them."

[36:46] McFaul addresses Trump's understanding of warfare ethics:

"I don't think our president understands the difference between the laws of land warfare and how modern armies operate to avoid crises and hitting civilians."

7. Ukraine's Drone Attack on Russian Bombers

[34:32] McFaul praises Ukraine's strategic strike:

"This operation... hurt the Russian military in terms of billions of dollars and loss of a major element of their strategic air force."

[37:24] O'Donnell contrasts strength and weakness:

"When you have effects-based operation... Allen's being strong here... Putin looks pretty weak."

8. Trump's Silence on Vladimir Putin's Threats

[37:42] O'Donnell criticizes Trump's lack of response:

"President Trump... just reporting it out, you know, speaking very strongly. That's a big missed opportunity."

[41:40] O'Donnell denounces the travel ban's impact on America's image:

"This is outrageous and in the long term, it will have a big damage to our image in the world."

9. Closing Remarks and Upcoming Segments

The episode concludes with a brief mention of upcoming discussions on:

• The impact of Trump's travel ban with Ambassador Michael McFaul.
• MSNBC's Weekend Programming details.

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Key Takeaways:

• Trump's Travel Ban: Aimed at enhancing national security but criticized for its broad and discriminatory nature.
• Elon Musk vs. Trump's Budget Bill: Musk's vocal opposition highlights internal conflicts within the Republican Party regarding fiscal policies.
• Impact on New York: Significant threats to healthcare, Medicaid, and local economies underscore the bill's far-reaching consequences.
• Foreign Policy Concerns: Trump's handling of international relations, particularly with Russia, raises alarms about leadership and ethical considerations in warfare.
• Internal Republican Struggles: Leadership hesitations and public criticisms indicate a possible fracturing within the party's ranks.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jen Psaki [00:22]: "There's so much to cover. And of course, we have breaking news tonight about Donald Trump's travel ban."
• Lawrence O'Donnell [00:22]: "Now, when is the last time someone with a loud public microphone called Donald Trump or something?"
• Kathy Hochul [19:05]: "They're taking a wrecking ball against vulnerable children and families and senior citizens and people who are too sick to work."
• Michael McFaul [34:32]: "This operation... hurt the Russian military in terms of billions of dollars and loss of a major element of their strategic air force."

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This episode offers a comprehensive analysis of the intertwined dynamics between political maneuvers, fiscal policies, and international relations, emphasizing the profound impact on both national and state levels.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Jen Psaki]

THE Last Word with Lawrence o' Donnell starts right now. Hey, Lawrence. Hey, Jed. Thank you. And thank you for letting people know what's coming up at this hour. There's so much to cover. And of course, we have breaking news tonight about Donald Trump's travel ban. We're going to get to that later in the hour. Governor Hochul is going to join us here. You know, as you know, the Republican budget bill cannot pass without the votes of the House members from the state of New York, where much harm will be done by that bill. The governor's going to tell us what she might be able to do to protect New Yorkers from some of that harm. But some of it is pure federal government activity that these Republican House members from the state of New York. So they voted for it the first time. But when it comes back through for the final passage, will they be there? That's the big question. Always the big question. And some of them said they would never support Medicaid cuts. And then they did. Then they did. Yeah. So here we are. Thanks, Jen. Thanks, Lawrence. Thank you. Well, the breaking news of the night is that Donald Trump has issued another travel ban. It is a total ban for anyone except athletes entering the United States from 12 countries and a limited ban on people entering the United States from seven other countries. The bans do not apply to athletes, coaches and their immediate relatives traveling to the United States for the World cup, the Olympics and some other sporting events. The 12 countries facing a total ban are Afghanistan, Burma, Chad, Republic of Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Haiti, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen. The partially restricted countries are Burundi, Cuba, Libra, Laos, Sierra Leone, Togo, Turkmenistan and Venezuela. The claimed reason for the travel ban is the failure of the named countries to properly screen and vet travelers to the United States. The other obvious reason for announcing the travel ban tonight that will take effect on Monday is to turn our attention away from Elon Musk's war on Donald Trump. Elon Musk has not mentioned Donald Trump's name in his now nonstop attacks on the Trump budget bill. But Elon Musk is using his loud social media voice to urge Republicans to kill the bill in a steady stream of angry and bitter tweets. Elon Musk began his war against Donald Trump at 1:34pm yesterday, saying in his most anguished Twitter voice, I just can't stand it anymore. And he called the Trump budget bill a disgusting abomination. And as of tonight, Donald Trump remains cowering in abject, silent fear of Elon Musk. The proof that Donald Trump is terrified tonight after the richest person in the world turned against him, is that Donald Trump has remained absolutely silent about Elon Musk's attacks on the Trump budget bill and Donald Trump. Now, when is the last time someone with a loud public microphone called Donald Trump or something? Donald Trump was doing a disgusting abomination without being immediately attacked by Donald Trump? Remember, Donald Trump has attacked Taylor Swift for nothing. Donald Trump attacked Bruce Springsteen for something Bruce Springsteen said at a concert on. On the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. And Donald Trump attacked Bruce Springsteen immediately. Donald Trump's rule of life, as he announced in the first book published in his name, which of course was ghostwritten for him, that whenever he is criticized or something he's doing is criticized, he always has to hit back harder. That's Donald Trump's rule. But Donald Trump dare not strike back against the richest person in the world. Maybe Elon Musk can push Donald Trump to that breaking point that Elon Musk himself reached yesterday at 1:34pm when he screamed on Twitter, I just can't stand it anymore. Donald Trump might get there, but Donald Trump has never, ever taken longer to get there as he maintains his fearful silence about Elon Musk. Elon Musk continued his attacks on Donald Trump and Donald Trump's budget bill beginning in the middle of the night at 2:07am When Elon Musk said, it more than defeats all the cost savings achieved by the Department of Government Efficiency team at great personal cost and risk. Now there is Elon Musk reminding us of his complete failure to cut trillions of dollars of federal spending that he claimed he was going to cut, and then asking for our sympathy at how much it personally cost him in lost Tesla customers and dropping Tesla stock prices. When America and the world turned against Elon Musk as he played the role of Donald Trump's executioner, the world turned against Elon Musk. With Tesla sales dropping around the world while Elon Musk was deciding to take food away from starving babies, from starving children, from starving people of all ages who depend on famine relief from the United States Agency for International Development, which Elon Musk personally decided to destroy. And Elon Musk now wants us to feel sorry for him about the cost and the risk that he suffered while being Donald Trump's executioner. Seven minutes after that tweet, at 2:14am, Elon Musk tweeted, this immense level of overspending will drive America into debt slavery. No, it won't. But it is more debt than the country has ever had. And 14 minutes after that, at 2:28am, Elon Musk attacked Donald Trump and his budget bill again, saying interest payments already consume 25% of all government revenue. This is Elon Musk speaking, so of course that's not true. Interest on the debt is not that high. It's high, but not that high. Elon Musk then put down his Twitter machine for almost eight hours and then began attacking Donald Trump in his budget bill again just after noontime today. And then Donald Trump finally arose from his Twitter silence about Elon Musk attacking him. And at 1:59pm, just over 24 hours after Elon Musk launched his direct attack on Donald Trump, calling Donald Trump's budget bill a disgusting abomination and saying anyone who supported it should be turned out of office, Donald Trump bravely tweeted about Elon Musk without comment, simply by retweeting the old ELON ELON From May 28, seven days ago, when Elon Musk tweeted, as my scheduled time as a special government employee comes to an end, I would like to thank President Donald Trump for the opportunity to reduce wasteful spending. And then in that same tweet, Elon Musk told this lie. The Department of Government Efficiency mission will only strengthen over time as it becomes a way of life throughout the government. And that was only seven days ago that he was telling that lie. And now Elon Musk is telling you that his budget cutting mission has not just completely collapsed, it has been completely overrun by the Trump budget bill, which the Congressional Budget Office said today will increase the national debt by $2.4 trillion. Now, imagine how deep Donald Trump's fear is that when he couldn't stand it anymore today and he had to tweet something about Elon Musk attacking him for 24 hours. Donald Trump's attack. The only thing Donald Trump dared to tweet was an old Elon Musk tweet with no comment at all. And two minutes before Donald Trump tweeted that old Elon Musk tweet, Elon Musk tweeted a new One, telling the Republicans they needed a new bill. And six minutes after Donald Trump's tweet, Elon Musk tweeted another new one. No one who actually reads the bill should be able to stomach it. That means you, Donald Trump. And then 44 minutes later, at 2:50pm, Elon Musk tweeted, call your senator, call your congressman. Bankrupting America is not okay. Kill the bill. And it didn't take long for the childish mind of Elon Musk, seeing the words kill and bill so close together, to just turn that into a movie poster version in his next tweet eight minutes later, using the title of the movie, Kill Bill. The Congressional Budget Office estimate of the impacts of the bill released today shows that close to 16 million people would lose health care coverage because of the Trump Republican budget bill. Republican Senator Joni Ernst's response to concerns about losing health care coverage at a town hall in Iowa was to say, we are all going to die. Which she seemed to mean sort of maybe as a joke. But then instead of apologizing for what she said or any misunderstanding of what she intended when she said it, she decided to mock people who didn't like her response and insult those people by pretending that those people don't know that we're all going to die someday. Today, the Senate Democratic leader, Chuck Schumer said this.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Donald Trump is just lying about the bill. Lying about the bill. Well, here's the we are all going to die act. It says nearly 14 million. It's 16 million getting closer to 16 million according to CBO's numbers.

[Jen Psaki]

We've been told 16 million people losing health insurance thanks to Republicans voting for Donald Trump's disgusting abomination. Mike Johnson, the perpetually in over his head guy who got the job of speaker of the house when Kevin McCarthy was kicked out and no one else wanted the job, is the kind of in over his head guy who's willing to tell you publicly who won't return his calls.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Well, I'll tell you, I called Elon.

[Jen Psaki]

Last night and he didn't answer.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

But I hope to talk to him today. I mean, it's not, you know, it's.

[Jen Psaki]

Very friendly and we can, and we've.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Laughed about our differences on policy before.

[Jen Psaki]

I'm not upset about this. No, he's not upset about it. He doesn't look upset about it. Why should he be? He was a junior member of the House who got catapulted into the speakership from obscurity after a couple. He gets the biggest office in the Capitol he gets a bigger paycheck than the other House members. He gets Secret Service protection. He's second in line for the presidency in the line of succession. Why would he be upset that Elon Musk is trying to destroy his disgusting abomination and won't return his calls? Mike Johnson's lucky to be there. So of course Mike Johnson's not upset about it. I'd love to talk to him this week and hope he calls him back today.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I've talked.

[Kathy Hochul]

I talked to President Trump, you know.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

All the time, multiple times a day. Obviously, we've talked about this.

[Jen Psaki]

He's, as you know, he's not.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

He's not.

[Jen Psaki]

Elon did a 180 on that. Okay, so we got it. So Trump easy to get on the phone several times a day. Musk won't return the call to the speaker of the House. So there's the speaker of the House wandering the halls of the Capitol, sounding like a high school kid on a tour, saying he really hopes the richest person in the world calls him back today or someday. And here's what the richest person in the world did after Mike Johnson said that. Elon Musk took that video of Mike Johnson saying, I hope he calls me back today, and he put it in his tweet at 2:05pm no one who actually reads the bill should be able to stomach it. Which means no one should be able to stomach what they heard Mike Johnson say in that video when he's hoping Elon Musk will call him back today. Congressional leadership has never looked more pathetic, more chaotic, more. More childish, or more, to use Elon Musk's word, disgusting. If the Senate fails to pass the bill, then the Republicans will have to start all over again. And tonight, Senator Rand Paul has said he will vote against it, and he sounds like he means it. Senator Ron Johnson has yelled about the bill, sounding as if he will vote against it, but there's no reason to believe any of the rantings of Ron Johnson. Republican Senator Joshua Hawley says he won't vote for the bill with what he calls Medicaid benefit cuts, but he has said he will vote for work requirements being imposed on Medicaid, which will be used to kick people off Medicaid who are unable to find a job. That's one of the ways millions of people are going to lose their access to health insurance. Truck drivers at the Port of Los Angeles, for example, and other ports around the country who are losing their jobs now because of the Trump tariffs will not be able to turn to Medicaid and Joshua Hawley will vote for that. Sounds like he's going to be fine with that. The only Republican senator willing to say publicly that he is ignoring Elon Musk is North Dakota's Kevin Cramer. If Elon was going to give me.

[Kathy Hochul]

Advice on how to get to the moon, I'd listen.

[Jen Psaki]

You know, if he was going to.

[Kathy Hochul]

Give me advice on how to raise.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It, several billion dollars from other billionaires, listen.

[Jen Psaki]

But he's not. He doesn't govern. And so to be honest, Elon just is not that big a factor. I know he's a glamorous sort of celebrity, but he's not a big factor. Kevin Kramer is in year one of a six year Senate term. And that's always the year when senators are at their bravest. Senator John Thune of South Dakota, now the Republican majority leader of the Senate, said after a meeting at the White House with Donald Trump today the plan to deal with Elon Musk is to simply lie about the bill. Why do you think Elon Musk is.

[Kathy Hochul]

Trying to kill this bill?

[Michael McFaul]

Well, I can't speak to, you know.

[Jen Psaki]

His reasons other than what he stated.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And I think that what he stated.

[Michael McFaul]

Was that he thought it was something.

[Jen Psaki]

That would add to the deficit. And we believe the opposite. And that is like believing that the earth is flat. But Republicans are willing to publicly believe anything to deliver massive tax cuts to Donald Trump and his billionaire friends. John Thune is saying that Republicans are simply going to lie and say the Congressional Budget Office for the first time in history is wrong when they are telling us that legislation will increase the national debt. The Congressional Budget Office has never been wrong about the overall budget impact of legislation. They might not project exactly the right number. But when they say the legislation will reduce the deficit, it always does. And when they say the legislation will increase the deficit and the debt, it always does. And any slightly sharp high school math student could tell you that the Republican budget bill will dramatically increase the national debt. But Donald Trump has spent years leading up to this moment, years teaching Republicans just how much they can lie. And so it will be lying season about the national debt for Republicans with Elon Musk continuing his attacks on Donald Trump and what Elon Musk calls the disgusting abomination that is the Trump Republican budget bill. And there's John Thune admitting that it is such an indefensible abomination that they just have no choice except to lie about it. Coming up after this break, the Republican budget bill cannot pass without the votes of the Republican members. Of the House of Representatives from the State of New York, where 1.5 million people will lose their health care coverage if the bill passes. New York Governor Kathy Hochul joins us next. Donald Trump and Republicans have a plan to kick 16 million people off of health insurance, including 1.5 million people in the state of New York. New York State alone would lose $13.5 billion in federal Medicaid funds if the Trump Republican budget bill is enacted. New York Governor Kathy Hochul and House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries held a press conference on Sunday to discuss what Elon Musk is now calling a disgusting abomination.

[Kathy Hochul]

They're taking a wrecking ball against vulnerable children and families and senior citizens and people who are too sick to work. If we can't take care of them, what does that say about us as a nation? And why do they need to be the collateral damage in these wars?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It would visit upon the people of New York and the American people the largest cut to health care in American history. The largest cut to Medicaid in American history. Children will be hurt. Families will be hurt. Seniors will be hurt every day. New Yorkers will be hurt. People with disabilities will be hurt.

[Jen Psaki]

Every New York Republican member of the House of Representatives voted for the Trump Republican budget bill, including Congressman Mike Lawler, who is reportedly considering running for governor of New York. Mike Lawler failed to protect the 100, 142,000, 271 Social Security recipients in his own district when Elon Musk and Donald Trump decided to close the Social Security office closest to his district. Joining us now is Democratic Governor Kathy Hochul of New York. Governor, thank you very much for having us. Great to see you again, Lawrence. I want to begin with this point about Congressman Mike Lawler. This used to be completely bipartisan in Congress. If you had a government office in your district, near your districts, like Social Security, helpful to your community, the president, the administration of your party would never close that, ever. Because you as a Republican or a Democrat with a Democratic president, if they were even thinking of it, if it was ever on a list, you'd get in there, you'd fight for it, you'd keep it open. That didn't happen here.

[Kathy Hochul]

That shows how insignificant the members of Congress are. All the power has been ceded to the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue. It's all in Donald Trump's hands. And they're sitting there on their hands, silent, afraid to say a word because he might help somebody in a primary against them. They've been paralyzed into inaction. And as A result, if one single person, Mike Lawler, Elise Stefanik, anybody else who thinks they're running for higher office, any one of them had voted against this bill, it would have been dead. And they did not look out for the rural hospitals in their districts that will close the thousands of people thrown out of jobs in an area where it's hard to get work in our red parts of our state, the most rural areas, I know them so well, my old district and Mike Lawlor letting that Social Security office close, it serves seven counties now, people have to travel over an hour, hour and a half. Some have to go to Connecticut to get services. And if you're walking into an office for social services, Social Security services, you're usually an elderly person, can't get around you haven't figured out how to use your computer, and you're showing up in person, and now you've got to travel over an hour. Thank you, Mike Lawler. Thank you, Republican members of Congress, because you clearly don't give a damn about the people who put you in office.

[Jen Psaki]

The in upstate New York, the areas we're talking about now, frequently, hospitals are one of the very big employers.

[Kathy Hochul]

Yes, they are.

[Jen Psaki]

What do Medicaid cuts of this scale mean to those hospitals?

[Kathy Hochul]

Hospitals will lose $3 billion in the state of New York per year. We can't help solve that problem. This is federal dollars that we need to have here. It is a major employer. When I represented seven very rural counties in the reddest part of our state in Congress, I'd always want to see who the employers are. When I went to visit our school, the hospital was always the largest. Then sometimes it was the prisons, then it was county government. It took a long time to get a private employer because these were people got their jobs, they worked hard, they struggle, it's hard to recruit doctors. So they're always living on the margin. So this basically says it's not just going to close for Medicaid recipients, it's going to close for everybody. When your kid gets sick, needs emergency care, your parents are having a heart attack, mom or dad are sick, you're not going to have a hospital to get them to. That's how serious this is.

[Jen Psaki]

Medicaid is the single biggest payer for nursing homes, not just in New York State, but throughout the country, pays about 40% of the revenue to nursing homes. What does it mean for nursing homes?

[Kathy Hochul]

100,000 people in the state of New York who are in nursing homes will lose their Medicaid coverage. Now, what are the options if you're in a nursing home, you're usually in a difficult situation. Right. Are you going back to your family's couch? Your grandchildren going to live in their spare bedroom? It does not have a path forward. That's why the insanity of this bill has to be stopped. Never thought I'd be relying on the Republican Senate to bail out our country, but that just shows how desperate we've become, that we're counting on them to do the right thing.

[Jen Psaki]

And if there's any changes in it, I mean, you used to work in the Congress. You know how it goes. If there's any changes in it in the Senate, it goes back to the House. Mike Lawler gets another vote on this in the House. The pressure would be on the New York House Republicans once again. If it goes back to the House.

[Kathy Hochul]

Well, even if he sees the light and all the constituents that are really unhappy with him right now force him to change his vote, you'll never walk away from that first one. You'll never be able to walk away from that.

[Jen Psaki]

This is all happening at the same time where Donald Trump is imposing tariffs that the trade court has said are all completely illegal. You've got a, you're a border state with Canada. You do an awful lot of trade across that border every single day. That's important for all of New York. What are the Trump tariffs doing to.

[Kathy Hochul]

The Trump tax is devastating for the state of New York. We have a 450 mile shared border. We're basically neighbors. We don't even think of them as a foreign country at all. And so we have a $50 billion trade balance. And what that means is it's farmers who can't export into Canada anymore because they won't accept our goods. And nothing is coming our way because they can't afford it. One farmer told me that it's going to cost him $10,000 more a month. And these people live on the margins. They have a bad crop. The chickens have to be killed because of bird flu. They're always struggling. And the cost of everything from aluminum to steel to the shavings that they get to put in the stalls because we get them from the trees in Canada. We have such a synergy with them. But it's not just the crops and the business going back and forth and the trade of commodities. It's also the tourism. Lawrence, they're not coming over. They used to fill the stadium in Buffalo because Buffalo Bisons are an affiliate of the Toronto Blue Jays. They used a third of the people going to Buffalo Bills games. And hockey games and our small tourism towns up in the north country, Lake Placid and Saranac Lake and Plattsburgh, Lake George. They're all suffering now because the Canadians are saying not just this threat of tariffs, but the fact that you're talking about taking over our country. It is so insulting to our Canadian friends. I understand it. But flights from Canada are down dramatically at jfk. They're not coming to New York City. They're not spending money. They're not going to the shows. And the rest of the state is feeling the ripple effect. It is devastating.

[Jen Psaki]

The Republican budget bill, they're working on it now. You've already got a budget. You did your job on a budget much earlier than Washington, as usual, I would say you had to get, you had to do the best you could with that budget with the information you had at the time. Might this be a situation where you have to come back if this Republican budget becomes law, come back and revisit the New York state budget?

[Kathy Hochul]

We may have to do that. But what I want to talk about for one minute is my budget. In contrast to what's happening in Washington. When we talk about these tariffs, we're talking about over three to six thousand dollars more in additional costs. Everything's going to cost more, especially commodities from China. I'm focusing on affordability because I know New Yorkers are struggling. My own family used to live in a trailer park, flip coupons. We bought our clothes that used clothing stores. So when I see parents, moms and dads today trying to make ends meet, I said the best thing I can do for them is to help lift them out of poverty or lift them out of their circumstances, put money back in their pockets. I have $5,000 going back in the pockets of New York families with child tax credit, middle class tax cut and inflation rebate covering the cost of school lunches and breakfast for every family. And parents are so grateful. But I'm going to put that in this pocket and the Trump tariffs are taking it out because everything's going to cost more. So families feel like they just can't get ahead. So we'll come back if we have to to deal with this. I expect we'll come back in the fall. But we received $93 billion from the federal government. I can't make that up. No state's going to make that up. So that's the harsh situation that we'll be seeing when cuts to everything, the largest cut to nutrition program is happening. Title I under education law means that schools in New York state that take care of our highest need kids will be cut. There's no part of our state that will be untouched. If that devastating bill becomes law. We must stop that.

[Jen Psaki]

Governor Kathy Hogle, thank you very much for finding the time to come by and see us. Really appreciate it.

[Kathy Hochul]

Great to see you again.

[Jen Psaki]

Thank you. And coming up today, according to Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin told Donald Trump that he will respond very strongly, as Donald Trump phrased it, to Ukraine's drone attack on Russia. And Donald Trump apparently said nothing in response to Vladimir Putin's threat. That's next. MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of the Briefing. We've never experienced a moment like this in our country and it leaves us all with a choice. Are we going to speak out or are we going to be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents. I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies. You don't need to be hopeless. We have our voices and I will continue using mine. The briefing with Jen Psaki, Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. In every version of the White House that does not include Donald Trump, after the president speaks to the Russian president, for example, by phone, White House staff would publicly release what they call a readout of the phone call. It would be as complete a summary of the conversation as possible. But in the Trump White House, we of course just get a social media post from Donald Trump. Donald Trump today posted. I just finished speaking by telephone with President Vladimir Putin of Russia. The call lasted approximately 1 hour and 15 minutes. We discussed the attack on on Russia's docked airplanes by Ukraine and also various other attacks that have been taking place by both sides. It was a good conversation, but not a conversation that will lead to immediate peace. President Putin did say and very strongly that he will have to respond to the recent attack on the airfields. We also discussed Iran. And Donald Trump obviously didn't say anything very strongly back to Vladimir Putin after Putin told him that he is going to attack America's ally Ukraine again. And when Donald Trump uses the phrase very strongly, we know that he means that admiringly. He only uses that phrase admiringly. And so there's Donald Trump saying in Trump language that he admires the way Vladimir Putin plans to strike back very strongly at Ukraine and kill more children and kill more civilians, because Vladimir Putin has never limited Russia's attacks to military targets, the kind of military target that Ukraine struck last week. We're getting new images of the extent of the damage done by Ukraine's drone attack. Ukraine released this footage of drones hitting Russian bombers. Ukraine's security service said that it had struck more than 40 bombers deep inside Russian territory in an operation dubbed Spiderweb. Satellite images show Destroyed and damaged TU 95 and TU 22 bombers, which are considered by military analysts to be crucial to the Russian Air Force. Joining us now is Michael McFaul, who served as the US Ambassador to Russia for President Obama. He's an MSNBC international affairs analyst. Also joining us is retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, the commander of the U.S. army in Europe. And Ambassador McFaul, let me begin with you because I know you've been involved in composing what becomes the public readout of high level phone calls like this. Tell us how that's normally done and what you make of what we saw today from Donald Trump.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Well, you're right, Lawrence. I worked three years at the White House for President Obama. I set up those phone calls. I was a note taker in those phone calls. I listened to them. I speak Russian, so I hear both sides. When President Obama was speaking to Russian leaders, medveda for Putin. And then I would write exactly what you're talking about, of course, with my colleagues. And we would write those to advance American national interests. We would write those to communicate what we were seeking to achieve in those phone calls. And what is striking, as you rightly underscored, is this is just him like reporting it out, you know, speaking very strongly. And he does like that phrase in talking about Vladimir Putin. He's used it many, many times. And the biggest point that you made, I just want to underscore it. There was no pushback, nothing like they're about to attack Ukraine. What can I do? And when we talking about it again, I'm just repeating some of the very excellent points you made. But the Ukrainians attacked military targets, by the way. I want those folks on my side. And the Putin attacks, I guarantee you they're going to be civilian targets, they're going to be children, they're going to be grandmothers. And yet no response whatsoever from the president. Those are missed opportunities when you get a chance to communicate about the call and all you do is say he spoke very strongly. That's a big missed opportunity.

[Jen Psaki]

General, what's your military assessment of what Ukraine accomplished in that strike? It seems to be a narrative new level of offensive action by Ukraine.

[Michael McFaul]

It is, Lawrence. And if you don't mind, I'd like to reinforce what the ambassador just said, because the responding very strongly that that's the way Putin has to work. And without President Trump saying anything, it puts him complicit in the kinds of war crimes that Vladimir Putin has been committed, literally thousands of them. But to go to your question, in terms of the operation itself, this is what the military calls effect based operations. It's specifically geared toward targets that are key to the strategy. And I would suggest that this particular operation, which was brilliant in my view, and kudos to the Ukrainians for executing it the way they did, again reinforcing hitting military targets. If these were docked airplanes, that means they even avoided killing the crews of those airplanes when they hit them. But it prevented future attacks. But when you have effects based operation, it's a combination of special operators, intelligence personnel, targeteers, people on the ground. And in this case, the Ukrainians even used, as we now know, Russian truck drivers to get the targets or to get the ammunition to the place where they could hit the targets. So all of these things, what I'd suggest, certainly hurt the Russian military in the terms of billions of dollars and loss of a major element of their strategic air force, but it also hurt their economy. And that's where Vladimir Putin and his Russian Federation is in dire straits right now. And I think the Ukrainians are certainly not only targeting for the military targets, but they're targeting continued emphasis on the Russian economy, which is right now in dire straits.

[Jen Psaki]

And General, I want to stay on your point about this targeting. Donald Trump doesn't seem to have any comprehension at all about the difference between a military target and a civilian target. And there's no, I mean, Donald Trump could have said to Vladimir Putin, you know, first of all, don't do it, but at minimum, stop targeting civilians.

[Michael McFaul]

Yeah, well, I mean, Putin has been using these aircraft to toss glide bombs, to launch cruise missiles, to launch hypersonic missiles at civilian infrastructure and civilians inside of Ukraine. All of those strikes, every single one of them, is a war crime. It violates different protocols within the Geneva Convention. And you're right, I don't think our president understands the difference in between the laws of land warfare and how modern armies operate to avoid crises and hitting civilians versus what are viable targets for a military operation. And that truthfully concerns me a little bit.

[Jen Psaki]

Ambassador McFaul, assuming Donald Trump did not in any way object to Vladimir Putin saying he's going to hit Ukraine, what does that mean to Putin? When Putin hears no resistance at all from Donald Trump, he hears weakness.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

He knows that there's no consequences for his actions. President Trump has had this strategy to try to end the war of just giving Putin everything. And so he just keeps asking for more. But I hope President Trump just to use his own language, Lawrence, just for a minute, right? He loves the language of strong and weak. Who looks strong and weak over this weekend? Look what the Ukrainians did. That looks like a pretty strong act to me. Mr. President, Putin looks pretty weak. He can't even protect his own bombers in Siberia. Think about that, Mr. President. And winners and losers. He likes that language, too. Who looks like the winner and the losers here? Putin's been trying to capture these four regions for three years. He's lost over a million casualties. That's a winner. I hope that Trump just in his own way of thinking about things, might reconsider because I think the Ukrainians here are the strong ones. The Ukrainians here are the winners.

[Jen Psaki]

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight. And Ambassador McFaul, please stay with us. Going to discuss the Trump travel ban. Coming up, we will discuss the impact of Donald Trump's new travel ban with Ambassador Michael McFaul. That's next. It's conversation. It's perspective. It's the weekend on MSNBC with three new dynamic hosts, Jonathan Capehart, Eugene Daniels and Jackie Alemani. And in the evening, it's the Weekend Prime Time with Eamon Mohadin, Katherine Rampel, Elise Jordan and Antonia Hilton. Join them as they offer analysis on the week's most important events and set the agenda for the week ahead. The weekend at 7am eastern and the weekend primetime at 6pm eastern Saturdays and Sundays. On MSNBC. Tonight, Donald Trump ordered a new travel ban. The New York Times reports the ban, which goes into effect on Monday, primarily affects travelers from countries in Africa and the Middle East. The list includes Afghanistan, Miramar, Chad, the Republic of Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Haiti, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen. Mr. Trump also partially manned travel from other countries, including Burundi, Cuba, Laos, Sierra Leone, Leon, Togo, Turkmenistan and Venezuela. Mr. Trump's order frames the reasoning for restricting travel as necessary because of national security threats. But critics say that the order discriminates against broad swaths of people based on their ethnicity alone. In his first term, Mr. Trump barred travel from several Muslim majority countries, including Iran. Back with us is former Ambassador Michael McFaul. Ambassador McFaul, this of course, falls to the embassies around the country to basically enforce this ban. Refused to issue any travel documents to anyone. What is your reaction to it?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Job of the president, United States is to Advance American national interests. This is not in America's national interests. Of course we have procedures in place. I'm a former U.S. ambassador to find terrorists, to screen out people that we do not want in the country and we should provide more resources for that. But to ban everybody from all of these countries, it's just anti American. I mean, think about most of these countries are dictatorships. I know people from Afghanistan, Burma, Iran and Sudan looking at the list who are here in the United States right now. And you know why they're here? Because they're human rights activists. Cuba, think about it. Eisenhower adopted the Trump approach towards immigrants back in 1956. You know who not have moved here? Secretary of State Marco Rubio's parents. And I just wish that we, America, we celebrate the individual. We don't believe in group punishment and treating everybody the same. And I just think this is just not in America's national interest. I hope it'll be reconsidered.

[Jen Psaki]

There are people in Afghanistan tonight who helped the United States forces while the United States was there for years. They're now banned from even attempting to get into this country.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You're exactly right, Lawrence. And I know some of the people that got out, thankfully, and I know a lot of people still there. I just think it's outrageous and in the long term, it will have a big damage to our image in the world. People are looking at this, talking to me on different platforms right now, saying what has happened to the America that we once knew. So I hope this is not going to go forward because I do think it's very damaging to American national interests.

[Jen Psaki]

Ambassador Michael McFaul, thank you for joining us tonight. Thank you. We'll be right back. Ambassador Michael McFaul gets tonight's last word. Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Karen Howe, author of Empire of AI.

[Jen Psaki]

Dreams and nightmares, in Sam Altman's OpenAI. If you make too early of a call and you try to replace all your workers with AI and then it.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Doesn'T work out, you hire back the workers.

[Jen Psaki]

But there are lots of other things that this hype around AI is driving forward that is not reversible. That's this week on why is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Wherever you're listening right now and follow.