Lawrence: No one else on the planet but Americans will ever pay a Trump tariff

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Episode Title: Lawrence: No one else on the planet but Americans will ever pay a Trump tariff
Release Date: January 24, 2025
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell, MSNBC

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I. Pete Hegseth’s Nomination Controversy

Timestamp: 00:45 - 10:41

Lawrence O'Donnell opens the episode by delving into the contentious nomination of Pete Hegseth for Secretary of Defense. Drawing on Lisa Rubin's investigative reporting, O’Donnell examines the allegations against Hegseth, highlighting the non-disparagement agreements embedded within his divorce proceedings. These agreements potentially restrict ex-wives and others from speaking freely about their experiences and allegations.

Rachel Maddow adds depth to the discussion by referencing an email from Pete Hegseth's mother, which accuses him of non-physical abuse, including "belittling, lies, cheats, sleeps around and uses women for his own power and ego" (00:48). Despite Republican senators defending Hegseth by asserting the absence of physical abuse, the focus shifts to his character and personal conduct.

O'Donnell criticizes the rushed confirmation vote scheduled for the following day, arguing that the newly uncovered information demands more thorough scrutiny. He emphasizes the need for transparency, questioning whether Hegseth will release individuals bound by non-disparagement agreements to speak openly about their allegations (01:52).

Senators Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins express profound concerns over Hegseth's qualifications and character. Murkowski underscores the importance of character in leadership roles, especially in the Department of Defense, stating, "The leader of the Department of Defense must demonstrate and model the standards of behavior and character we expect of all service members" (04:22). Similarly, Collins highlights Hegseth's lack of managerial experience and his controversial statements regarding women in the military (04:22).

Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer vehemently criticizes the nomination, highlighting its absurdity in reaching the Senate floor despite significant concerns (04:22). The episode underscores the bipartisan resistance Hegseth faces, with potential implications for the confirmation vote, including the possibility of a tie-breaking vote from the Vice President if more Republican senators oppose the nomination (10:41).

II. Donald Trump's Attempt to End Birthright Citizenship Blocked

Timestamp: 18:38 - 24:00

The conversation shifts to a significant legal battle involving former President Donald Trump’s executive order aimed at terminating birthright citizenship. A federal judge in Seattle, appointed by Republican President Ronald Reagan, has blocked the order, deeming it "blatantly unconstitutional." Judge Judd Kunauer issued a restraining order for 14 days, which can be renewed, and criticized the Trump Justice Department's defense of the order as baseless (18:38).

Neil Katyal, former acting U.S. Solicitor General and MSNBC legal analyst, joins the discussion to provide legal insights. He asserts that Trump's order, which sought to revoke citizenship for children born in the U.S. to undocumented immigrants, directly contravenes the 14th Amendment. Katyal emphasizes the clarity of the Constitution's language, stating, "If you're born in the United States, you're a citizen of the United States. End period. Stop." (19:54)

Katyal further criticizes the manipulation of legal terms, addressing the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" and rejecting the White House's attempts to redefine its meaning. He predicts that the Supreme Court will likely strike down the executive order, labeling it as an act of "political theater" rather than a genuine legal challenge (22:57).

Rachel Maddow probes deeper into the legal nuances, questioning whether the phrase leaves any room for interpretation. Katyal responds unequivocally, asserting that there is no constitutional basis for Trump's arguments and condemning the executive order as an assault on legal principles (22:00; 23:10).

III. Trump's Speech on Tariffs Explained

Timestamp: 24:00 - 32:18

Lawrence O'Donnell critiques President Trump's recent speech at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, focusing on Trump's claims about tariffs and their economic benefits. O'Donnell dismantles Trump's assertion that tariffs would funnel "hundreds of billions of dollars and even trillions of dollars into our treasury to strengthen our economy and pay down debt," clarifying that only American importers bear the financial burden of tariffs (25:56).

He elucidates the mechanics of tariffs, explaining that when an American company like Best Buy imports goods, they pay the tariff at the point of entry, which directly increases the cost of products for consumers. O'Donnell highlights the misconception propagated by Trump that foreign countries would absorb these costs, stating, "No foreign country has ever paid one penny of tariffs to the United States in the history of tariffs. A tariff is taking money from Americans in exactly the same way that a tax is taking money from Americans" (27:12).

O'Donnell underscores the inherent flaw in Trump's economic strategy, noting that the projected revenues from tariffs are vastly overstated and that relying on tariffs to finance the government is unsustainable. He criticizes Trump's attempt to mask tariffs as a revenue-generating mechanism for the U.S. Treasury, emphasizing that it ultimately results in higher consumer prices, not increased federal income (30:00).

IV. Discussion on "Say Nothing" Hulu Series

Timestamp: 32:18 - 43:26

Transitioning from political discourse, Lawrence O'Donnell and Rachel Maddow pivot to discussing the critically acclaimed limited series "Say Nothing" available on Hulu. Based on Patrick Radden Keefe's book, the series delves into the tumultuous period of the Troubles in Northern Ireland, portraying the complexities and human stories behind the conflict.

Patrick Radden Keefe, the author of the book and a distinguished staff writer at The New Yorker, joins the conversation to offer insights into the adaptation process. He explains the show's intimate focus on individuals, particularly sisters who joined the IRA in the early 1970s, aiming to provide a personal perspective rather than a broad historical overview (34:51).

Rachel Maddow praises the series for its exceptional writing and performances, noting its ability to resonate with contemporary issues of division and conflict. She draws parallels between the show's themes and recent events in the United States, such as the January 6th Capitol attack, highlighting the enduring human struggle with persuasion and conflict (40:14).

Both hosts commend the show's ability to create emotional connections and prompt viewers to reflect on historical and present-day divisions. They discuss the challenges of adapting complex historical narratives into compelling television, emphasizing the importance of maintaining authenticity while making the story accessible to a broader audience (38:25).

V. Closing Remarks and Advertisements

Timestamp: 43:26 - 45:30

The episode concludes with a brief mention of upcoming topics and a recap of the discussions. Lawrence O'Donnell teases future segments, including a focus on Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy and an endorsement of Patrick Radden Keefe’s work. Advertisements for various products and services are interspersed, but as per the summary guidelines, these non-content sections are omitted from the detailed summary.

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Notable Quotes

• Rachel Maddow (00:48): "You are an abuser of women. A man that belittles, lies, cheats, sleeps around and uses women for his own power and ego."

• Lawrence O'Donnell (01:52): "It just seems like a rush to me to hold his confirmation vote tomorrow while this whole new window has just been opened on the process."

• Senator Lisa Murkowski (04:22): "Character is the defining trait required of the Secretary of Defense and must be prioritized without compromise."

• Neil Katyal (19:54): "If you're born in the United States, you're a citizen of the United States. End period. Stop."

• Lawrence O'Donnell (27:12): "A tariff is taking money from Americans in exactly the same way that a tax is taking money from Americans."

• Patrick Radden Keefe (38:25): "We wanted to be very kind of intimate, sometimes uncomfortably, intimately close, with these sisters who joined the IRA in the early 1970s."

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This episode of "The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell" offers a comprehensive examination of significant political developments, blending in-depth analysis with compelling storytelling to provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of current events and their broader implications.

Transcript

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Now it's time for the Last word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence.

[Rachel Maddow]

Good evening, Rachel. I just wanted to add to what you were just discussing with Lisa Rubin that the abuse that has been described in that second marriage to Samantha Hegseth. This is from Pete Hegseth's mother. This is her email to him at the time where she says to him, you are an abuser of women. A man that belittles, lies, cheats, sleeps around and uses women for his own power and ego. No accusation of physical abuse there. She then goes on to list the abuse as your abuse over the years to women. Dishonesty, sleeping around, betrayal, debasing, belittling needs to be called out. And what's so important about this is Republican senators are saying, they're defending him by saying there was no physical abuse. And his second wife Samantha says there was no physical abuse. That's correct. She does say that Pete Hegseth's mother describes what the abuse, the non physical abuse actually was that they're talking about right there.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And with Lisa Rubin's new reporting tonight, we see this non disparagement agreement as part of the divorce papers, which does seem to open a whole new window into what details we have heard, what corroboration we have or have not heard, what Pete Hegseth's ex wives may feel legally constrained from talking about despite allegations named non anonymous allegations from other people. And it just feels quite materially relevant to the very serious Questions raised about Mr. Hegseth that he has been deflecting and deflecting and deflecting. And now we may know why we don't have some of those answers. It just seems like a rush to me to hold his confirmation vote tomorrow while this whole new window has just been opened on the process. He should be asked, I mean, Tim Kaine asked him, would you release anybody from a non disclosure agreement? And he said it's not My responsibility. Well, his lawyer insists that it isn't a nondisclosure agreement, that it's a non disparagement agreement. Well, he should be asked now if he'd release people from the non disparagement agreement so that they could speak freely about these allegations that have been made.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah. And you know, you know the way families go. Good days, bad days, good years, bad years. Pete Hegseth's mother was at the confirmation hearing, sitting beside him, supporting him. Now, she said on Fox that after she wrote that email, a few hours later she sent another email apologizing for saying what she said here. But she has never retracted any specific words of this email, never once retracted any of the specific descriptions of the behavior in this email. And this, all this talk about, oh, it's just anonymous people. It's just anonymous people that Republicans keep saying that just isn't true.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

No, not at all. It's good reporting and it's good to have this information. It's also at a really visceral level, it's sicken. It turns my stomach to know that this vote is still scheduled for tomorrow.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah. And there's that whole separate issue of qualifications which, which, you know, I'm so glad that Senator Collins today in announcing her opposition stuck exclusively to the qualifications issue. Senator Murkowski mentioned some of these other issues involving his behavior, but she just stayed with the qualifications, which is a big enough bad story on Pete Hegseth. I wish that were just were the only story.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator Mark Kelly told Chris live in the 8:00 hour tonight here on MSNBC that he understands that for a job as big as Defense Secretary, it's really hard to find somebody who can check all of the boxes in terms of somebody who can really do all this, do all the things required of a person in this incredibly difficult, incredibly challenging job. He said, I understand we're not going to find somebody who can check all the boxes. I have yet, I'm paraphrasing here, but I have yet to figure out which box at all. Pete Hegsev checks there. There is no box that is checked next to the name Pete Hegseth. He doesn't meet any of the qualifications for this. You know, other than being a Fox News weekend morning co host, I guess, which maybe is all you need that.

[Rachel Maddow]

Seems to be good enough for the Trump standard. You know, if you're on Fox News, that meets his standard. Right.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you, Lars.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you, Rachel. Thank you. It doesn't have to be this way. It really doesn't The United States Senate doesn't have to be confronted with the worst presidential nominees in history for Senate confirmation. And Donald Trump himself proved that today that it doesn't have to be this way. When Donald Trump's choice for CIA director, John Radcliffe, was confirmed by the United States Senate, 74 to 25 CIA directors before the Trump era used to be routinely confirmed unanimously. But 74 to 25 is as solid a vote as you can expect for a Trump nominee. 21 Democratic senators, 21 are betting that John Radcliffe will be at least okay as a CIA director. That's all a yes vote means. Voting no on a presidential cabinet member is saying that person is terrible for that job. That's the standard for a no vote. But for a yes vote, it just means that you think this person will be okay. Might be great, maybe, but will probably be at least okay. That's the standard for a Senate confirmation vote. Yes. No one in the United States Senate, no one thinks that Marco Rubio is a terrible choice for Secretary of State, which is why the United States Senate confirmed Marco Rubio as Secretary of State unanimously. Unanimously. Donald Trump knows how to get a unanimous vote for a Cabinet choice. He did it with Marco Rubio. He does have to live with the uncomfortable history that Marco Rubio has called Donald Trump a con man. But getting a unanimous vote in the Senate is worth overlooking, things like that. And then Donald Trump has insulted the Senate with so many of his other choices, beginning with Matt Gaetz for Attorney General, a choice so insulting to the Republicans in the United States Senate that they wouldn't even consider him. And Donald Trump had to meekly withdraw the worst choice for Attorney General in history. On the same day that the United states Senate voted 74 to 25 to confirm John Radcliffe for director of the CIA today, the Senate voted only 51 to 49 to limit the debate on the nomination of Pete Hegseth for Secretary of defense. The 30 hours of debate started today will probably end around 9pm tomorrow night when the Senate will vote on the nomination. The vote to limit debate is usually identical to the vote in favor of whatever is being debated. Every Republican Senator who supports the Hegseth nomination voted to limit the debate today. The two Republican Senators who joined all of the Democrats in refusing to limit debate both announced their opposition to the nomination. Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski said, although he has recently revised his statements on women in combat since being nominated, I remain concerned about the message that confirming Mr. Hegseth sends to women currently serving and those aspiring to join. While the allegations of sexual assault and excessive drinking do nothing to quiet my concerns. The past behaviors Mr. Hegseth has admitted to, including infidelity on multiple occasions, demonstrate a lack of judgment that is unbecoming of someone who would lead our armed forces. Above all, I believe that character is the defining trait required of the Secretary of Defense and must be prioritized without compromise. The leader of the Department of Defense must demonstrate and model the standards of behavior and character we expect of all service members. In Mr. Hegseth's nomination to the role poses significant concerns that I cannot overlook. Given the global security environment we're operating in, it is critical that we confirm a Secretary of Defense. However, I regret that I am unable to support Mr. Hegseth, and Republican Senator Susan Collins of Maine issued a statement focusing on policy and experience. She said, I am concerned that he does not have the experience and perspective necessary to succeed in the job. I am concerned that Mr. Hegseth does not have the management experience and background that he will need in order to tackle these difficulties. His limited managerial experience involved running two small non profit organizations that had decidedly mixed results. I am also concerned about multiple statements, including some in the months just before he was nominated, that Mr. Hegseth has made about women serving in the military. He and I had a candid conversation in December about his past statements and apparently evolving views. I am not convinced that his position on women serving in combat roles has changed. Mr. Hegseth also appears to lack a sufficient appreciation for some of the policies that the military is required to follow because they are codified in the laws of the United States of America. While I understand his points on the importance of up to date and workable rules of engagement, our prohibitions against torture come from American laws and treaties ratified by the United States, including the Geneva Conventions. Therefore, I will vote against the nomination on the Senate floor today. Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer said, I want my colleagues to think about how absurd it is that this nominee has even made it to the floor.

[Pandora]

It's a shame that that has happened.

[Rachel Maddow]

We are being tasked to trust our armed forces to a man with a history of erratic behavior. One of the kindest words that might be used to describe Mr. Heckseth is erratic and that's a quality you don't want as head of DoD. He has a history of excessive drinking, of alleged domestic abuse, and zero experience leading a large organization of any kind. How on earth can America entrust our safety and security to a man who has allegedly shown up to work and other events inebriated? What if he shows up inebriated during a crisis, what's going to happen? This is dangerous. NBC News is reporting that the top two lawmakers on the Senate Armed Services Committee, quote, received a third briefing yesterday evening on the FBI background check into Pete Hegsett. Senator Jack Reid provided the following statement to NBC News after that third briefing. As a rule, I do not publicly discuss the contents of an FBI background investigation. However, two things are true in this case. One, during my time Senate, the FBI has never before needed to deliver multiple briefings on a defense secretary nominee. And two, the recent reports about the contents of the background briefings on Mr. Hegseth are true and accurate. NBC News reports. During a second briefing the two senators had received, the Trump transition team told Senator Wicker and Senator Reid that Samantha Hegseth, Pete Hegset's second wife, spoke with the FBI regarding Pete Hegseth and gave them a prepared statement that said she has had and continues to he can. He has had and continues to have a problem with alcohol abuse. Pete Hegseth says he no longer has a problem with alcohol abuse. And Samantha Hegseth said in a said in a statement, as we've already said repeatedly on this program many, many times that she has said Pete Hegseth has not physically abused her. The issue of abuse in the in second marriage case has never been an issue of physical abuse. No one has alleged that. It is possible that some of the Republican senators who voted to limit debate might still be undecided about how they will vote on the nomination. For example, Senator Mitch McConnell has not indicated how he will vote on the nomination. If Pete Hegseth loses one more Republican senator, then the Vice President will have to cast the tie breaking vote in the Senate. And if Pete Hegseth loses two more Republican senators between now and the time of the vote, he will not be confirmed and Donald Trump will have to look for another Defense secretary. Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congresswoman Mikey Sherrill of New Jersey. She's a member of the House Armed Services Committee and a former helicopter pilot in the United States Navy. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. I want to pick up with you where Senator Collins left off, which is on policy involving things like the Geneva Convention and torture, on experience and preparation for the job. I think people have heard enough about all of the personal issues involving Pete Hegseth and anyone can make their own judgments about that. But you are uniquely positioned to make judgments about what is necessary to do the job of Secretary of Defense.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Sure.

[Mikey Sherrill]

Well, Lawrence, I think what Keeps striking me as so ironic is how Pete Hegseth suggests that he just wants a merit based military. And yet there is no world in which he has the qualifications or the merit to serve as the Secretary of Defense. He's not served in the role of guiding a large organization. I thought Secretary, I thought Senator Collins comments that he led small organizations with decidedly mixed results. Was being. I don't think the results were very mixed. He did not do it well. And so to see that this is somebody that is being put forward to be the Secretary of Defense, it's not just an insult to the Senate and Senators, it's an insult to our troops and they deserve better. You know, when you hear that he doesn't like the Geneva Conventions or doesn't agree with the discussion on torture in the rules and codified in our law, in United States military law, I have to say I have been to POW training camp. You know, when you serve as a helicopter pilot or a pilot in the Navy or a special operator and you may be behind enemy lines, you go to a training on what it might be like to be a pow and you are told in that instance that the United States upholds the rule of law, upholds the Geneva Conventions, because then we can advocate strongly for the release of POWs across the world. And I will tell you, part of the reason that I got out of the military and went to law school is because I was so dismayed with the undermining that took place with Abu Ghraib, with torture, with rendition, with Guantanamo, the undermining of these ideals of our military. And I can tell you that when we do that, it undermines our role in the world and what we are able to do with servicemembers. So to think that we would have a Secretary of Defense that doesn't even believe in the values and the ethos of our military, that's really shocking.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator Collins said that she's listened to him in what appears to be his evolving views, as she put it kindly again, about women serving as you did, as helicopter pilots, for example. And she's not convinced, she is absolutely not convinced that he has changed his mind about that and believes that and seems to believe that he's still opposed to the idea of people like you serving as helicopter pilots.

[Mikey Sherrill]

Well, when he says something like I just want a merit based military, I mean, does he not realize that some of the highest ranking people in our military are women? Does he not know that the Chief of Naval Operations, the highest ranking person in uniform is a woman right now? Does he not realize that the superintendent of the Naval Academy, that one of the commanding officers of an aircraft carrier recently was a woman? I mean, does he not understand that about our military? It seems as if he doesn't. Once again, it makes you question why he is the person that should be placed in charge of the Defense Department.

[Rachel Maddow]

Congresswoman Mikey Sherrill, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Pandora]

Thank you.

[Mikey Sherrill]

Thank you again for having me.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you. Well, once again, a judge has stopped Donald Trump, this time calling Donald Trump's action blatantly unconstitutional in trying to eliminate birthright citizenship. Neil Katial joins us next.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Rachel Maddow]

Today, a federal judge in Seattle who was appointed by Republican President Ronald Reagan blocked Donald Trump's executive order purporting to end birthright citizenship. The judge called Trump's order blatantly unconstitutional. Judge Judd Kunauer signed a restraining order for 14 days that can be renewed when that order expires. At a short 25 minute hearing this morning, the judge questioned how the Trump Justice Department department could even come into court and defend Trump's executive order. Judge said, Frankly, I have difficulty understanding how a member of the bar could state unequivocally that this is a constitutional order. I can't remember another case where the question presented is as clear as this one. This is a blatantly unconstitutional order. The 14th Amendment of the Constitution says all persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. Joining our discussion now is Neil Katyal, former acting US solicitor general who has argued over 50 cases before the United States Supreme Court. He's a professor of law at Georgetown Law and an MSNBC legal analyst. Neil, have at it.

[Neil Katyal]

Well, Lawrence, when a judge appointed by Donald Trump's own party calls Trump's executive order, as you said, blatantly unconstitutional, those are the words he used. It's clear this is not about partisan politics. It's just about fidelity to the rule of law. And Trump's executive order wasn't just a misunderstanding of our Constitution and our glorious Fourth Amendment. It's really a full scale assault on basic literacy. What Donald Trump's order said, Lawrence, is that children born in the United States to undocumented immigrants are no longer citizens. And it applies even to babies of moms who were in the country legally but temporarily, like a student or a tourist or something like that. And here's the basic legal problem. You just flash it on the screen. The language of the 14th Amendment is as clear as day in its opening words, that if you're born in the United States, you're a citizen of the United States. End period. Stop. Why does it look that way? Because the framers of the 14th Amendment, and in particular Representative Bingham from Massachusetts who wrote it, said we need to overturn the worst line and the worst Supreme Court case in American history. The line in Dred Scott about citizenship, that slaves couldn't be citizens. That's what this is about. And particularly for a president who claims to be about the original understanding of the Constitution or strict construction, this is unconstitutional every day of every week.

[Rachel Maddow]

So Neil Trump supporters are clinging to this phrase in the middle of that line, subject to the jurisdiction thereof, all persons born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof. I always read that as meaning, well, you know, a baby born to the French ambassador in the French Embassy in Washington, D.C. is not subject to the jurisdict of the United States. So it's like it's this tiny diplomatic immunity sort of references is all I've understood it to be.

[Neil Katyal]

Yeah, Lawrence, obviously you went to a school that taught English, and that's where you're getting that from. The idea that other folks aren't subject to the jurisdiction of the United States is kind of crazy. I mean, that means you couldn't prosecute them. They can go and commit whatever crimes. I thought Donald Trump was the guy who against all of that. So this is not constitutional and there isn't a way that the Supreme Court, I think, is going to find, is going to uphold it. So I think it's an obvious easy thing for the courts to do to strike it down. The harder question is when Donald Trump does other stuff which is unconstitutional, but not quite as blatantly unconstitutional, is this kind of a shot across the bow at the courts right now with something obviously unconstitutional with the hope that he has that the other stuff he does, he'll be able to get away with.

[Rachel Maddow]

So, Neil, I just want to go over it one more time. Subject to the jurisdiction thereof. That is the phrase that the Trump White House is clinging to. Is there anything there?

[Neil Katyal]

No. And one of Trump's own appointees, Jim Ho, wrote an article all about that subject to the jurisdiction thereo being obvious and having a simple understood meaning. And look, can you contort the word not to mean not not, I guess. But, you know, that's the kind of gamesmanship that's going on here. And I don't think that the courts are going to stand for it. And, you know, ultimately, what's Donald Trump doing here? He's treating babies like a threat to national security. And you got to wonder, like, what's next? Is he going to have like a travel ban on strollers or something like that? I mean, this is all about, this is political theater. It's about scoring points. It's not about fidelity to the Constitution. It's not about good faith legal arguments.

[Rachel Maddow]

Neal Katyal, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight.

[Neil Katyal]

Thank you.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you. Coming up today, Donald Trump unknowingly humiliated himself big time in his speech to the World Economic Forum. That's next. Today from Washington, Donald Trump read a teleprompter speech to the World Economic Forum annual meeting in Davos, Switzerland. And I make the point about the teleprompter because it means that the things that Donald Trump said that are completely untrue were fully premeditated lies. It's one thing to misstate something when you're speaking extemporaneously. We've all done that. But to have staff type a lie into a teleprompter that you can then tell to listeners in Switzerland, all of whom know it's a lie, is the kind of unique choice that in the history of the American presidency has been made only by Donald Trump. He also made choices in that teleprompter speech that weren't lies but were things that no other president would say, like this. I'll demand that interest rates drop immediately. And likewise, they should be dropping all over the world. Interest rates should follow us. The Federal Reserve Board sets interest rates in this country. Other countries set interest rates through similarly structured independent financial arms of their governments. It has never been within the powers of the President of the United States to set interest rates. And because the Federal Reserve was created in 1913 as an independent body, presidents have refrained from telling the Federal Reserve what to do with interest rates, even when they wish they could. But Donald Trump is trying to trample on the independence of the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve chair, Republican Jerome Powell, who was first appointed by Donald Trump and then reappointed by Joe Biden to another five year term, doesn't sound afraid of Donald Trump.

[Mikey Sherrill]

If he asked you to leave, would you go?

[Rachel Maddow]

No.

[Mikey Sherrill]

Do you think that legally you're not required to leave?

[Rachel Maddow]

No.

[Pandora]

Do you believe the President has the.

[Rachel Maddow]

Power to fire or demote you?

[Neil Katyal]

And has the Fed determined the legality of a president demoting at will any.

[Rachel Maddow]

Of the other governors with leadership positions not permitted under the law? And so Donald Trump, who likes to flaunt his power, didn't realize that he was flaunting his powerlessness with Jerome Powell today. The lie Donald Trump told to the World Economic Forum today is a lie he has told just about every day of his political career. It's one thing to tell a lie to people who don't know it's a lie, like Trump supporters at a Trump rally. It's another thing. It is indeed pathological to tell a lie directly to people who all know it's a lie. You're going to recognize this lie when you hear it. You've heard it before. Here's today's version. If you don't make your product in America, which is your prerogative, then very simply, you will have to pay a tariff, differing amounts, but a tariff which will direct hundreds of billions of dollars and even trillions of dollars into our treasury to strengthen our economy and pay down debt. No, you won't. You won't have to pay a tariff. Everyone at the World Economic Forum knows who pays the tariffs, and they all know it's not them. The only people who pay the Trump tariffs, which do indeed end up in the United States treasury, are the only people who can contribute to the United States treasury, the people of the United States of America. If Donald Trump puts a tariff on televisions made in China or South Korea when they arrive at the port of entry of this country, that tariff is not paid by anyone in China or any foreign country. That tariff will be paid, literally at the dock by the person or company in the United States who wants that tv. So basically, the way it works is someone from Best Buy is at the dock at the Port of Los Angeles or wherever the TVs come in, in whatever container ship they come in on. And. And when those goods come into this country, when the big shipment of TVs made in Asia arrives for Best Buy, Best Buy's person is right there paying the tariff, in this case, let's say a Trump 50% tariff right at the dock. And that tariff is paid by Best Buy directly to the same person who's been at that dock since the start of this country. A customs agent. A customs agent right there at the dock collecting the money from the American standing there at the dock, who's paying him that money called a tariff. And that customs agent, in effect, then sends that money to the United States Treasury. And the TV that Best Buy was going to sell for $1,000 now costs $1,500 because Best Buy has to make up the money that it just paid for the 50% tariff at the port of entry. When you buy the tv, you'll never see the tariff built into the price of it. You'll just see the $1,500. But if Donald Trump imposes the kind of tariff he's threatening to impose, you will see the prices of televisions at Best Buy go up by at least 50%. Donald Trump's choice of treasury secretary said in his confirmation hearing that he doesn't expect the price of important televisions to go up 50% because he expects the television manufacturers in Asia to cut their prices by 50% so that you'll continue to buy their TVs at the same price. A TV manufacturer might be able to do that for a very short period of time if the tariff were, say, 5% or less. So it could be on a very low tariff for a very short time, that a foreign manufacturer would lower the price so that the product that you buy, you wouldn't experience the price increase. But. But the money paid for that tariff would still be paid by that same person, that same American importer at the dock, which is to say by Americans. The Americans who imported those TVs would pay those tariffs. No foreign country has ever paid one penny of tariffs to the United States in the history of tariffs. A tariff is taking money. A Trump tariff is taking money from Americans in exactly the same way that a tax is taking money from Americans. And Donald Trump doesn't want you to know that his tariffs take money from you. And so it is his most enduring and most repeated lie, actually the correct way for Donald Trump to say what he was trying to say. Today would be if you don't make your product in America, America which is your prerogative, then very simply, the American people will have to pay a tariff. Differing amounts, but a tariff which will direct hundreds of billions of dollars and even trillions of dollars into our treasury to strengthen our economy and pay our debt. Of course, he's wildly overestimating how much money you can raise from tariffs, which is why no country in the world tries to rely on tariffs to finance their government. The American people alone pay Trump tariffs. No one else on the planet, no one in China, will ever pay a Trump tariff. We patiently await the White House press corps confronting Donald Trump about his perpetual lie about tariffs, something they have never done. Coming up, if you haven't seen the limited series say Nothing on Hulu, you are missing one of the greatest pieces of television ever made. You'll see a bit of it next on the author of the book say Nothing, Patrick Redenkeef joins us.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

What's up podcast listeners? It's Tanks, host of the It's Me Tanks podcast. Join me weekly on It's Me Tanks as I dive into topics like relationships, why it's okay to feel lonely, fighting, summer comparison, and pop culture's hottest takes. I don't shy away from getting candid about my personal experiences, and I want to share all the advice I have learned with you. I'm even joined by some of my friends like Claudia Ashre, Connor Wood, and Amanda Hirsch each Friday for our new Office Hours episodes. You can listen to It's Me Tanks every Monday, Wednesday and Friday wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show so you don't miss an episode.

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I think that America should realize that America supplies the guns to the British government who supply the arms to the Royal Ulster Constabulary, who supply the arms to the B Specials who shoot people in Northern Ireland with it. That was Northern Ireland's Bernadette Devlin in 1969 on Meet the Press, complaining about the use of American arms against innocent people. A few years later, after the violence had gotten much worse in Northern Ireland, President Biden's favorite poem, Seamus Heaney, who is from Northern Ireland, said in a poem about what they then called the troubles in Ireland, quote, the voice of sanity is getting hoarse. That poem is titled whatever you say, say nothing. Say nothing is now the title of a powerful, compelling new limited series on Hulu about that deadly period of recent Irish history.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I looked into the eyes of the people who was beating us.

[Rachel Maddow]

And they.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Were glazed over with hate. And I thought to myself, you know, I thought, no, I'm never going to convert these people.

[Rachel Maddow]

It was that feeling about the hopelessness of persuasion that converted some people from peaceful protesters to desperate acts of violence. Put the money in the bag.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

All right, all yous listen up. We are liberating funds for the Irish Republican Army. Mother Superior.

[Rachel Maddow]

Every. Everyone down on the ground. Nigh. Everyone, hands on your head.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Get down.

[Rachel Maddow]

Go on. Missus, on the ground.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Please.

[Rachel Maddow]

No.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

This is sacrilege. This is.

[Rachel Maddow]

I'll not be having any part of it.

[Pandora]

No, it's just a bit of flare, love.

[Rachel Maddow]

Go on. Pretty please. No.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

[Rachel Maddow]

She won't find out.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Supposed to die. I think we're gonna have to make an example of her life. She's 100 years old. Free. Your handbook.

[Rachel Maddow]

Anyone who resists is disloyal to the cause. She's Catholic. I'm Catholic, too, by the way.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Just shoot her in the foot.

[Rachel Maddow]

Hey, how come she gets to start dying?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Okay, okay, okay, okay. Money in the bag. Let's go, let's go, let's go. Okay.

[Rachel Maddow]

Jenny.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Jenny, is it. Yeah.

[Rachel Maddow]

Okay. Just relax. Jenny, it's okay.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I'm doing this for your family as much as mine, Okay?

[Rachel Maddow]

I just want our kids to go.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Up in a free Ireland.

[Neil Katyal]

Okay, Love.

[Rachel Maddow]

Okay.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That's okay. Good girl. Don't be holing at me now.

[Rachel Maddow]

Jenny.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Love.

[Rachel Maddow]

Your wife.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

No Polish. Non touchy. Marc.

[Rachel Maddow]

At ya. Kobe. Look at you. Okay.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Mother Superior, we're away.

[Rachel Maddow]

It is my honor to be joined now straight from my old neighborhood in Boston via the New Yorker, by Patrick Reddin Keefe, distinguished staff writer at the New Yorker. His books include Empire of Pain, Exposing the Sackler family's profiteering in the opioid in opioid sales and say Nothing. A true story of Murder and Memory in Northern Ireland, which has been adapted as a limited series, available now on Hulu. And Patrick, it is simply. I don't know that I've ever seen better television. It's up there in that tie for best ever with a few, you know, a handful of things that I've seen. I want to go to that scene in the back, because everything, everyone in Northern Ireland is represented in that bank in the sense that this is a very tight focus, the series, on the violence. But most people in Northern Ireland were not part of it and objected to it. And I love that woman who just says no. And you should be ashamed of yourself because she's Catholic. She's one of them, but she doesn't approve of what they're doing. It's all there, including that final moment where they switched the. It's obviously a Catholic teller, and she switches into speaking Irish, which the Protestants in Northern Ireland can't do, to communicate secretly about that currency that you don't want to take.

[Pandora]

Yeah, exactly. And it's funny you should say it, because in terms of the kind of focus, the close focus, because that was very much the approach we wanted to take, was not to think of this as a history lesson or a lesson in political science or a documentary, but really to be very kind of intimate, sometimes uncomfortably, intimately close, with these sisters who joined the IRA in the early 1970s.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah. The Sopranos is not a history of New Jersey at that time. Right. And so there are giants of that era like Bernadette Devlin, who's not in this. John Hume, the great peacemaker, who's not in this. Who, by the way, one day walking in Northern Ireland, said. Encapsulated what I felt the whole thing in one sentence when he said to me, well, you know, the Irish never forget and the English never remember. Yeah, that seemed to be the whole story.

[Pandora]

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because since the show has come out, it's been fascinating watching the reactions in Ireland and Northern Ireland and England. And there has been a reaction in England where they talk about the title say Nothing, and the idea that there's this kind of omerta, this very Irish sort of tribal sense that you don't talk about things. And it's funny for me because I feel as though there is a kind of English code of silence about these events as well. You talk to English high school kids or college students, they do not learn the history of the Troubles. It is a bit of unpleasantness that they don't want to necessarily address.

[Rachel Maddow]

These performances are simply extraordinary. The writing. I have to say, having written dramatic television, I was sitting there in awe of the writing in the pilot. And, you know, I'm generally not a fan of flashbacks, of cutting through time. I think people use that as a cheat a lot. It's so brilliantly done here. And so I was just in awe of the structure, the writing team getting together and coming up with the structure. But I loved it so much. I did something I'd never done before. I got the book after watching the series.

[Pandora]

Love to hear it.

[Rachel Maddow]

And the structure is right here in the book. The writer's room had a pretty easy time with structure because it's exactly the way the book is done.

[Pandora]

Well, it's similar. I mean, it's funny. Cause I do think that a good adaptation is. It's not the book. Right. You have to depart. It has to be its own thing and work on its own terms. It's hard. And Josh Zedimer, who is our showrunner and his team really were just incredible in terms of the way they sort of honored the DNA of the book and then some of those structural conceits. But then it lives on its own as television in a way that I think is hopefully thrilling and fascinating for people who may never have picked up.

[Rachel Maddow]

The book and listen. I'm a believer in drama having no obligation to telling us anything about our present tense. This happens to do that. When you see that line about, you know, I looked in their eyes and I realized there's no way to persuade these people. Well, I mean, people looking in the eyes of January 6th attackers of the Capitol, you know, have had that experience. That experience exists in this country. It exists within our families, where you look and you go, I can't persuade these people. And if you stay with this story over the remainder of the century, you discover that people were persuaded into a zone ultimately of the reasonable. Not necessarily the agreeable, but the reasonable. Let's stop doing this.

[Pandora]

Yeah, I mean, it's one of these fascinating things where when I was working on the book, I mean, for me, this is a 10 year project. I started this in 2014, was my first trip to Northern Ireland. And during the years I was working on the book, to some extent, I felt as though I was looking at a history that felt kind of very different to me. Far away and long ago. And then by the time we were working on the series and the writers room got up and running, you had Black Lives Matter, you had a kind of increasing sense of division across the United States. Eventually, you had Gaza and protests on US Campuses, and there were all these things where, you know, I don't want to draw anything. Glib analogies. And we, again, were telling a kind of quite specific story. But I think, done right, what you can do is kind of create these resonances that might give us an opportunity to have other types of conversations about things that are happening today.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah, it absolutely does that. And I. In the very first place I went outside of this country was Northern Ireland. It was the first place I entered Ireland in my life, as I was in college. The Troubles were very hot at the time, and I was befriended by this guy on my first day there, who drove me around eventually and did tours. We were driving down one of the main streets. It'd be like driving down Fifth Avenue. And he said to me, you know, I've never been on this street before because it was a Catholic neighborhood and he was Protestant. He was my age. We're both 19. And I said, well, how would they know? Because he looks, you know, there's nothing. How would they know? You know? And there was nothing in his name. And he said, well, you know, they'd pull me over and they'd say something to me in Irish, and I wouldn't be able to say anything. And it was all these little things about it. But he felt, because he was with me, he was with American, he was safe, and he. He did feel safe in his life. It's hard to describe this to people. We were falling asleep in his house. You could hear bombs going off, but people felt safe as long as they were even slightly distant from where the actual action was.

[Pandora]

Yeah, it's one of those strange experiences I had when I was working on the book, where I thought initially that me being an outsider, an American, would mean that nobody would talk to me. And the book is called say Nothing. That people wouldn't open up, that they wouldn't share any of this history. What I discovered when I got there is that if you're that guy that you just described walking down the street, there's nothing about you that looks necessarily that would distinguish you. But the minute you open your mouth and start talking, you just say a few things, and somebody hears your accent, and immediately they're judging you and thinking, I know where this guy's from. I know what religion he is. I know what kind of school he went to, what kind of sports he watches, what sort of team. And you're sort of plotting somebody on an ideological matrix to be an American. I was like an alien. I just kind of dropped in there and people didn't know quite what to make of me. Notwithstanding my very Irish name.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah, you made me binge. I binged two things. I binged the series and then I binged the book and Writers Guild Awards. It's nominated. And I gotta warn my friends in the Writers Guild that the deadline for voting is Tuesday. So, you know, and I can't publicly campaign or anything like that. But I've got my ballot. I'm gonna fill it out tonight. Patrick Redden Keefe, thank you so much. Thank you for joining us tonight. We'll be right back. For the first hundred days of the Trump presidency, Alex Wagner will be covering the impact of the Trump agenda around the country on her new podcast, Trumpland with Alex Wagner. Scan the QR code on your screen to listen to my friend Alex Wagner's show. Now Patrick Redden Keefe gets tonight's last word. Say nothing is on Hulu. There is no better television available to you than that limited series right now. Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy live and uncensored.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems.

[Rachel Maddow]

To follow me, you never know what's going to happen. You can listen to Jeff Lewis live.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

At home or anywhere you are.

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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