Lawrence on the White House press briefing ‘Trump standard’

Summary

The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell: Episode Summary Episode Title: Lawrence on the White House Press Briefing ‘Trump Standard’
Release Date: January 22, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O’Donnell delves deep into the lingering impacts of the Trump administration on the White House press briefings, the controversial pardoning of January 6th rioters, and other significant political developments. Drawing from his extensive experience in political staff roles and media production, O’Donnell provides insightful analysis and critical perspectives on the current state of American politics.

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The Silence of the Press Briefing Room

O’Donnell opens the discussion by reflecting on the stark absence of White House press briefings during Donald Trump’s presidency. He highlights that the Trump administration went over 300 days without a single press briefing, setting a new and concerning precedent.

Lawrence O’Donnell [03:31]: "The White House press briefing room is now a waiting room for a plane that's never going to take off."

He contrasts this with the Biden administration's approach, emphasizing the double standards applied by the Washington press corps towards different administrations.

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The Trump Standard and January 6th Pardons

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the ramifications of Trump’s decision to pardon individuals involved in the January 6th Capitol riot. O’Donnell criticizes the White House’s apparent disregard for democratic norms and the legal system.

Lawrence O’Donnell [04:08]: "Washington certainly isn't fair. And the White House press corps, for this first week at least, personifies just how unfair Washington can be."

He discusses the release of 211 January 6th convicts and the lack of repercussions for those who committed violent acts against law enforcement, highlighting a "grotesque double standard" that benefits Trump.

Expert Perspectives

O’Donnell welcomes Ryan Reilly, a justice reporter for NBC News, and Andrew Weissmann, a former FBI general counsel, to discuss the broader implications of these pardons.

Ryan Reilly [15:40]: "There are a lot of guns at the Capitol that day. We'll never have a full count of how many there were because so few people were arrested that day."

Reilly underscores the severity of the Capitol attack and the insufficient legal accountability for the perpetrators, many of whom were released without proper supervision.

Weissmann adds to the conversation by emphasizing the critical role of state law enforcement in maintaining justice, especially when federal systems falter under political pressures.

Andrew Weissmann [20:12]: "We are going to have to look to state prosecutions to have any sort of form of justice in this country."

O’Donnell and his guests collectively argue that the "Trump standard" undermines democratic institutions and erodes public trust in the justice system.

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Tulsi Gabbard’s Controversial Meetings with Assad

Shifting focus, O’Donnell examines recent revelations about Senator Tulsi Gabbard’s meetings with Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in 2017. Citing a Washington Post report, he discusses the lack of transparency and the potential ramifications for her political career.

Lawrence O’Donnell [25:16]: "No member of Congress had been to Syria in six years at that time."

Democratic Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut joins the discussion, questioning the judgment and integrity required for roles such as Director of National Intelligence.

Jim Himes [28:18]: "This is not the attribute we need in our senior mode. Intelligent chief."

Himes criticizes Gabbard’s actions as "grossly negligent naivete", questioning her suitability for high-level intelligence positions.

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Russell Vogt and the Future of Federal Management

The episode proceeds to scrutinize the nomination of Russell Vogt for Director of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB). O’Donnell and Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon critique Vogt’s fiscal policies and approach to federal workers.

Jeff Merkley [34:36]: "He wants to cut the basic programs that support healthcare, housing, education and good-paying jobs."

Merkley labels Vogt as potentially "the most dangerous nominee that Trump has been put forward," citing his involvement in Project 2025 and his aggressive budget-cutting strategies favoring the wealthy.

O’Donnell underscores the paradox of attacking federal workers while proposing significant tax cuts for the affluent, highlighting the disconnect between policy proposals and their real-world implications.

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Honoring Cecile Richards

Concluding the episode, O’Donnell pays tribute to Cecile Richards, former president of Planned Parenthood, who recently passed away after a battle with glioblastoma. He reflects on her legacy and her contributions to civil rights and reproductive rights advocacy.

Lawrence O’Donnell [38:00]: "Cecile fearlessly led us forward to be the America we say we are."

O’Donnell shares heartfelt sentiments about Richards’ impact and the lasting inspiration she provides to future generations.

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Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Lawrence O’Donnell provides a thorough and engaging analysis of pressing political issues, from the erosion of press freedoms under Trump to the controversial pardoning of January 6th rioters and the implications of high-profile political nominations. By incorporating expert interviews and critical commentary, O’Donnell ensures that listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the complex dynamics shaping American politics today.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Lawrence O’Donnell [03:31]: "The White House press briefing room is now a waiting room for a plane that's never going to take off."

• Lawrence O’Donnell [04:08]: "Washington certainly isn't fair. And the White House press corps has applied a grotesque double standard."

• Ryan Reilly [15:40]: "There are a lot of guns at the Capitol that day."

• Andrew Weissmann [20:12]: "We are going to have to look to state prosecutions to have any sort of form of justice in this country."

• Jim Himes [28:18]: "This is not the attribute we need in our senior mode. Intelligent chief."

• Jeff Merkley [34:36]: "He wants to cut the basic programs that support healthcare, housing, education and good-paying jobs."

• Lawrence O’Donnell [38:00]: "Cecile fearlessly led us forward to be the America we say we are."

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This detailed summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions and insights while providing context and critical analysis for listeners who may not have tuned in.

Transcript

[Ted Danson]

Hey, friends, Ted Danson here, and I want to let you know about my new podcast. It's called Where Everybody Knows yous Name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes doing this podcast is a chance for me and my good bud Woody to reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years ago. Plus, we're introducing each other to the friends we've met since, like Jane Fonda, Conan O'Brien, Eric Andre, Mary Steenburgen, my wife and flee from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And trust me, it's always a great hang when Woody's there, so why wait? Listen to where everybody knows your name. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Ryan Reilly]

USAA.

[Rachel Maddow]

Now it's time for the Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Good evening, Rachel. You told me that last night about get on Blue sky. And I'm looking at Blue sky right now. I'm [e-mail], bluesky, and I guess I think I'm. Let me just read to you, actually, Rachel, the very first thing I said on Blue sky, it's kind of like Alexander Graham Bell, you know, on the first phone call, it felt that way. It felt like it has to be profound. And so this is what I came up with nine minutes ago. Rachel told me to join Blue sky last night and it only took me 24 hours to figure it out. And here I am.

[Rachel Maddow]

Do you see what's posted on my Blue sky account right now?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I wish I knew. Let me see.

[Rachel Maddow]

You don't know how to do it.

[Jeff Merkley]

I think I do.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Wait, I'm going to press this thing here and I think I'll. You did it, y'all. This is fantastic.

[Rachel Maddow]

It says you did it, Lawrence.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Woot.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yes, you.

[Rachel Maddow]

And then I also replied to your message to encourage you to do more because you're perfect.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, no, listen, I'm gonna pull an all nighter now and just. That's all I'm gonna do is I'm gonna sky. Is they call it sky? Is that what I'm just gonna sky?

[Rachel Maddow]

That's not what they call it. You can just follow all the people that I'm following. I'll follow the people that you're following. We'll make a whole thing. There's a whole MSNBC feed thing there that we can get people on it's gonna be a who.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We're off and running. It's going to work.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you, my friend.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you, Rachel. Thank you. Well, the White House press briefing room is now a waiting room for a plane that's never going to take off. The new White House press secretary has not set foot in the White House press briefing room. One of Donald Trump's White House press secretaries never set foot in the White House press briefing room in the last Trump presidency. That last Trump White house went over 300 days without a press briefing. 300 days. And then four years ago, this is what happened in the White House press briefing room on Inauguration Day.

[Rachel Maddow]

Good evening, everyone. Thank you for joining us on this historic day. It's an honor to be here with all of you. When the President asked me to serve in this role, we talked about the importance of bringing truth and transparency back to the briefing room. And he asked me to ensure we are communicating about the policies across the Biden Harris administration and the work his team is doing every single day on behalf of all American people. There will be times when we see things differently in this room. I mean, among all of us. That's okay. That's part of our democracy.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Trump White House doesn't think so. They don't think that's part of our democracy. They don't care about what Jen Psaki just called our democracy. Every day. Every day. Jen Psaki walked into that briefing room every day for two years and took all of their questions and handled those questions masterfully, better than any White House press secretary of the television era. Then Karine Jean Pierre took over the briefings every day for two years. The White House press corps became as openly hostile to Karine Jean Pierre as they have ever been to a White House press secretary, including the famously beleaguered Ron Siegler of the Nixon White House, who had the impossible press secretary job of trying to defend a criminal president. The White House press corps attacked Karine Jean Pierre more than they ever attacked Ron Zigler. Because although there are some able and honorable reporters in that room, as a group, they have absolutely no sense of balance whatsoever. And as of tonight, there is no White House briefing even scheduled. None. And there is not a single complaint from the White House press corps. They could turn on their cameras and scream at the empty podium and televise that to show their outrage at not being allowed to ask a single question of the White House press secretary, but they would never dare do that in the Trump White House. We all know that life isn't Fair. And Washington certainly isn't fair. And the White House press corps, for this first week at least, personifies just how unfair Washington can be. We should not pass from the Biden White House to the Trump White House without noting the grotesque double standard that the Washington press corps has applied to Joe Biden and Donald Trump entirely to Donald Trump's benefit. It's not just Republican members of the House and Republican members of the Senate who know better, who have accommodated themselves to Donald Trump. We all know that Republicans in Congress who know better who have accommodated themselves to Donald Trump do that completely out of fear, the fear of losing their reelections to a Trump favored candidate. Bravery is not a typical characteristic of politicians. So there's no surprise in politicians, Republican politicians fear of Donald Trump. And it doesn't take bravery for a reporter to scream at Karine Jean Pierre in a White House press briefing. And it didn't take bravery for reporters to scream at Joe Biden in the Oval Office as they did, or in the Roosevelt Room as they did. But it would take bravery for them to scream at Donald Trump or at the White House press secretary working for Donald Trump. If she ever shows up in that briefing room in, say, the next 300 days, don't be surprised if you don't hear reporters screaming in the White House for at least another four years. Because Washington is now operating under the Trump standard. And it is not just Republican politicians who are operating under the Trump standard. The day after Donald Trump legally forgave, through commutations or pardons, all of the people who attacked the Capitol on January 6, including every single violent criminal who was convicted of physically beating and attacking police officers, even some Senate Republicans couldn't justify Donald Trump's decision. People who committed violent crimes on January 6th of 2021 should not be pardoned. And I think this is a terrible day for our Justice Department. It's wrong to assault anybody, but certainly to assault an officer. And I'm a big back to blue guy. I'm disappointed to see that.

[Rachel Maddow]

And I do hear the message that.

[Ted Danson]

He sent to great men and women, but goodbye.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Glad those words are on the screen because I couldn't hear. Senator Murkowski, there was nothing wrong with your TV set. So here we are. It's the Trump standard. Most Republican senators, most Republicans, members of the House of Representatives, are desperately afraid of criticizing Donald Trump for pardoning people who beat police officers, who tried to kill police officers and said they wanted to kill Mike Pence. The Trump standard changes that for Republican members of Congress, except for those Few voices that you just heard. The Department of Justice had to send victim notifications to the police officers who those Trump rioters assaulted and beat and threatened to murder and tried to murder. They actively tried to murder them. Those police officers got victim notifications as required by law, saying that the people who attacked them by name, telling them who they were, will be released and have been released back into the community without any court supervision whatsoever. Sergeant Aquino Ganel received this message this morning involved informing him of the release of Federico Klein, a former Trump appointee to the State Department, actually who received a nearly six year sentence for assaulting police officers and other crimes. Quote, advance notice of this release was not possible since this release was immediate and or unexpected. Upon release, the inmate will reside in Annandale, Virginia, but is not subject to community supervision. Following release, prosecutors said that Klein, quote, joined the large mob fighting against the police on the West Plaza. While there, he shoved police officers who were trying to control the crowd and protect the building. During that assault, Klein called out, you can't stop this. He also called to rioters behind him for help in pushing against the police. Klein was convicted of eight felonies, including six assaults, civil disorder, an obstruction of an official proceeding and four misdemeanors. Because most of the January 6 convicts have served their time already, actually only 211 of the Trump insurrectionists were released by the Bureau of prisons within the 12 hours of the Donald Trump order. They're now able to stand back and stand by as Donald Trump might want them to do, ready to engage for Donald Trump in any way he might call upon them to do in the future. Because Most of the January 6th convicts have served their time, the entire process of those individuals under the Bureau of Prisons custody took approximately 12 hours and resulted in the release of 211 individuals. In several of these cases, family members and partners helped bring rioters to justice. Informed on them in some cases, including leaders and members of extremist groups like the Oath keepers and the 3 percenters. And these family members are now afraid for their lives. In an interview with USA TODAY in October, the ex wife and son of the so called Oath Keepers leader Elmer Stewart Rhodes expressed fear that they are on a kill list. On this program In October, Jackson Reffitt explained why he reported his father, Guy Reffitt, to the FBI and that his father brought his guns to Washington on January 6th. Jackson Reffitt told us how he would feel last night if Donald Trump were to free his father. What will it mean to you if all of the January 6th prisoners are released on Inauguration Day.

[Ryan Reilly]

It means I'm always going to be in danger. Trump has said that one of the biggest targets is the enemy within. And I'm sure from a lot of perspectives such as Trump's, I am one of those examples. So if my father and everyone involved in January 6th is released, I don't know what else to think other than fear.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

His father threatened to kill him before he knew that his son turned him into the FBI. Now that Donald Trump has freed them all without supervision, every single prison sentence, from the longest term of 22 years for proud Boys leader Enrico Tarrio for seditious conspiracy to those with short jail sentences for misdemeanors, they've all been erased. The rioters assaulted more than 140 police officers with chemical spray tasers, bike racks, stolen riot shields, a fire extinguisher, flag poles, and other weapons. Some arrived to Washington that day with their guns. And former Capitol Police officers Michael Fanone testified to Congress that other rioters threatened to shoot him with his own gun. Michael Fanone suffered a heart attack and traumatic brain injury from that attack. In the body cam footage of that assault, officer Fanon can be heard desperately trying to stop them from killing him by telling them that he is a father. Joining us now is Ryan Reilly, justice reporter for NBC News is the author of sedition how January 6 broke the Justice System. Also joining us, Andrew Weisman, former FBI general counsel, former chief of the Criminal division for the Eastern District of New York. He's an MSNBC legal analyst. And Riley, you've studied every one of these. Ryan, you've studied every one of these prosecutions and been informing us about them as they went on. How many of these people? You know, there's this myth that there were no guns, that no one brought guns to the Capitol that day. How many people did and how many people did you see testimony about real near lethal behavior and assault of police officers.

[Ryan Reilly]

Yeah, there are a lot of guns at the Capitol that day. We'll never have a full count of how many there were because so few people were arrested that day. And it's so difficult to prove prove that someone had a gun at that point. But, you know, right near that place where Michael Fanon is being assaulted in that video inside of that tunnel, there was a man who actually had two guns on him that day, one of which he dropped in the fray there and left there and then reported stolen. When he got back, he had another gun on him as well. And so that's just one example. But at the tip of the spear. Before they actually reached that Lower west tunnel, the two people at the front of the mob had both had weapons on them, including one that was tucked under. Actually, I was looking through the recent notifications for the U.S. attorney's Office on the docket today involving a lot of these cases. And one case that the federal government has now moved to dismiss involved another individual that the federal government alleged had a weapon that day. His name is Edward Kelly. He was the fourth person to breach the Capitol. He was wearing paramilitary uniform. And I sat in court and I watched at testimony from this FBI special agent testifying to the fact that they proved that he had a holster on him that day. It was under the waistband. It was this inside the waistband holster. But they couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he had that gun on him that day. But they said that they did believe he had the gun on them that day. But the only thing is that they didn't have a clear picture of that to show to the judge who was overseeing that trial. Ultimately, Edward Kelly was convicted on a number of charges, including assaulting law enforcement officers as he stormed up those Capitol stairs. And that case is now gone. But that doesn't mean Edward Kelly is out, because unlike most January 6th defendants, he has this other case. And that's because Edward Kelly then plotted to murder the FBI special agents who investigated him for January 6th and was convicted by a separate federal jury sitting in the state of Tennessee. This was outside of the District, this is outside of D.C. they convicted him with a jury, federal jury in Tennessee. And so that conviction, it was not covered by the pardon. So that still stands today.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

LAWRENCE so Ryan, is that that's fascinating, is that the only January 6th defendant who was convicted of crimes on January for January 6th, who is now in prison tonight because of other crimes related to that committed elsewhere later?

[Ryan Reilly]

Yeah, you know, it's a great question. I think that there are a few defendants who have other charges that sort of grew out of this, right, because you often find really damning information on people's computer. In this particular example, I'm going to next isn't actually an example of that, but there was someone who was recently arrested who now has been pardoned in the last couple of weeks. They were just arrested on January 6th charges, and their case was just starting to go through the system. And they were actually taken into custody from state custody because they had been convicted of possession of child pornography. So that's how they got into custody. So, you know, there were a lot of individuals who were charged with sex crimes, including horrible sex crimes against children. And so that's just another aspect of this. The pardon, of course, isn't for that behavior, but that is their past criminal behavior. And, you know, there's a lot, there's this myth out there, this notion that these folks were just upstanding citizens who made a mistake. And that may be true of many of them who got caught up in that mob mentality. That's certainly true of a lot of them. But there's a significant portion of these individuals who have significant criminal histories which resulted in them having lengthier sentences, because that's how the system works. If you continue to do something, you're punished more severely, because that's how we set up our criminal justice system. So that's just the reality of these cases. Some of these individuals who committed these brutal assaults have lengthy criminal histories that up to the amount of time that they were sentenced to behind bars.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So Andrew Ryan's just reframed this story for me. Donald Trump has just pardoned people charged with child pornography, possession of possibly some convicted of. He's pardoned those people. And Andrew, we remember as we were leading up to this, there were many comments by people around Donald Trump saying they were going to go through each one of these cases individually and make sure they were only pardoning worthy people, and they wouldn't pardon anyone who committed any violence against a police officer. Everyone who said that was wrong. And it turns out to be even worse than that. Donald Trump pardoned people who were charged on child pornography charges.

[Andrew Weissmann]

So a couple points about that, which is totally right, which is that we're seeing the same kind of dysfunction that we were told wouldn't happen in a Trump 2.0. One of the people who you are referencing who said that of course we shouldn't be pardoning people who engaged in violent activity, is the current vice president of the United States. Another person who said it would be inappropriate to pardon and to treat leniently people who attacked police officers is the current nominee to be the Attorney General of the United States, Pam Bondi. So you're seeing already this schism where you have Donald Trump making them really look foolish. And the final point that I think Ryan's really getting at is how much we are going to need to look to state law enforcement in these situations to carry the burden, because we no longer, with Donald Trump functionally being the head of the Justice Department and giving direction as to who to prosecute and who will be pardoned and who will not be prosecuted to the Department of Justice that we are going to have to look to state prosecutions to have any sort of form of justice in this country.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And Andrew, in the previous Washington not controlled by the Trump standard, Pam Bondi would be immediately getting peppered with questions by report about Donald Trump issuing these pardons. But according to the Trump Standard, she may never answer a reporter's question again.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Yeah, I mean, this is your point of the consequence of fear, power, access and money and the destabilizing effect it is having on all of this sort of guardrails, including, as you noted, the fourth estate is going to be paramount to combat. Again, I do think this is a place where state prosecutions are going to be important. And here's just a classic example. Donald Trump, you know that we the one criminal case that went forward was the state case that picked up the charges that were dropped at the federal level under the first Trump administration. And it was Alvin Bragg who picked up the baton to make sure that he was held to account. And it's the one criminal case where there's been a trial and a conviction. And so that's that at least is something. But that is a perfect example for a model of trying to hold people to account, the people who Ryan so carefully outlined as people who engaged in crimes that should be prosecuted, but under this current Department of Justice may very well not be.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Ryan Reilly, thank you for your four years of coverage of these cases, these prosecutions. And Andrew Weissman, thank you for joining our discussion tonight.

[Ryan Reilly]

You're welcome.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. And coming up, the Washington Post is reporting new information about Tulsi Gabbard's trip to Syria, where she visited twice, where in 2017, she twice visited with Syrian dictator Bashar al Assad. Her Senate confirmation hearing for director of National Intelligence still has not been scheduled. And this story doesn't help House Intelligence Committee member Jim Him. Join us next.

[Ted Danson]

Hey, friends, Ted Danson here. And I want to let you know about my new podcast. It's called where everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes doing this podcast is a chance for me and my good bud Woody to reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years ago. Plus, we're introducing each other to the friends met since, like Jane Fonda, Conan O'Brien, Eric Andre, Mary Steenburgen, my wife and Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And trust me, it's always a great hang when Woody's there. So why wait? Listen to where everybody knows your name. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Jim Himes]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Today the Washington Post reported crucial new information about a 2017 meeting between Syria's murderous dictator Bashar al Assad and Tulsi Gabbard, who was then a Democratic member of the House of Representatives. Washington Post report says 44 former staffers who were involved in the discussions told the Post they were alarmed to learn only after the fact that Gabbard had met with Assad twice in three days. The aides, one of whom had advised against such a meeting, said they struggled to get direct answers from Gabbard about who she had met with and for how long. Emails, text messages, Google Docs, edit logs and other records reviewed by the Post show that Gabbard's team had been left largely in the dark about her schedule in Damascus. Her itinerary had changed drastically from a version approved by the Ethics Committee before she left, which listed no meetings with Syrian politicians or officials. One former staffer recalled that the first meeting was listed as somewhere around three hours. I remember thinking, that's insane. What do you talk about for three hours in a supposed unplanned meeting? Joining our discussion now is Democratic Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut. He's a member of the House Intelligence Committee. What would you want to know in a confirmation hearing from Tulsi Gabbard about this meeting?

[Jim Himes]

Well, Lawrence, you know the story in the Washington Post is her staff trying to figure out why the meeting happened, whether it was 90 minutes or three hours. That's not the question. The question is why in God's name did the meeting happen to begin with? What does the DNI need to be a dni? And I've known a bunch of them. Director of National Intelligence needs to be prudent, careful, truthful, a sense of integrity, a sense of risk. You know, there's a reason why it's a bad idea to meet with Assad at all, whether it's 90 minutes or two minutes. Why? Because there can be photographs that he will use to say, look, an American congresswoman supports me because there may be a compromise of that congressperson. There's a thousand reasons. And again, it doesn't matter whether it was 2 minutes, 30 minutes, 90 minutes, or 3 hours. What matters is that it shows a almost grossly negligent naivete about how a brutal murderer, Assad, could use her presence in his service. Now, that's before we even get into the many conspiracy theories that Tulsi Gabbard has promoted over time, before we get into the fact that she has completely changed her tune on things like Edward Snowden, who she introduced legislation to pardon, and now she says Edward Snowden did a terrible thing to her treatment at fisa. What emerges here is a portrait of somebody who will quirkily do and say anything in the moment and in this particular moment in order to get the next glittery high office. And I can tell you, as somebody who's been involved in intelligence for a very long time, that this is not the attribute we need in our senior mode. Intelligent chief.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You know, over many decades, different people, usually not members of Congress, have visited controversial places, places that are adversarial to the United States. And you could see the theory of what they had in mind about why they were doing that. I can't. Can you figure out any rationale for why she was doing this? No member of Congress had been to Syria in six years at that time. Yeah.

[Jim Himes]

And Lawrence, I mean, let's be really discerning and discriminating about what we mean here. You know, Bill Burns, as director of CIA, went and saw Vladimir Putin right before his attack on Ukraine. Bill Burns was in the Middle east to negotiate indirectly with Hamas. Enormously sophisticated diplomats who are trained over many decades. And what the downside is of appearing with bad people are the ones that do those sorts of things. As a junior member of the United States Congress without any diplomatic training or any security briefings, it is a profoundly risky thing to do. And again, it speaks to whether somebody has the judgment, the prudence, and maybe even the character to hold arguably one of the most sensitive posts in the United States government. And I think the answer on that is pretty clear.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Congressman Jim Himes, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Jim Himes]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Coming up, Donald Trump's choice for the Director of Office of Management and Budget thinks that air traffic controllers and all federal workers are villains. That's next with Senator Jeff Merkley.

[Rachel Maddow]

Do you believe the tax code should treat wages differently than it treats. Well.

[Ted Danson]

That. Look, in any tax system that advantages and creates distortions. It, it is a change that, Senator. It is a decision that was made when the tax codes were written. And so every tax codes in involves the trade offs and distortions in favor of other games.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It sounds to me like you do.

[Ryan Reilly]

Believe that it's fine to treat wealth more favorably.

[Rachel Maddow]

I couldn't disagree more.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The idea that a dollar earned by.

[Rachel Maddow]

A hedge fund manager has more value than a dollar earned by a teacher or a factory worker, I just think it's a disconnect with the American people.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That is Donald Trump's nominee for Secretary of Treasury explaining to the top Democrat on the Senate Finance Committee in his confirmation hearing why he thinks it's perfectly okay for hedge fund managers to not have to pay Medicare taxes because their income is not treated as wages like the rest of us, including the highest paid professional athletes in America, all of whom pay Medicare taxes on their entire contract salaries. Donald Trump's nominee for Director of the Office of Management and Budget, Russell Vogt, had the first of two of his confirmation hearings in the Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee where New Jersey's freshman Senator Andy Kim asked him about why he thinks air traffic controllers and all federal workers are villains.

[Andrew Weissmann]

I've also heard you say in other.

[Ryan Reilly]

Circumstances, quote, you know, we want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected when they.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Wake up in the morning.

[Ryan Reilly]

We want them not to want to go to work because they are increasingly.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Viewed as the villains. We want to put them in trauma.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I raise this with you because I.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Was a career nonpartisan civil servant.

[Ryan Reilly]

You know, I worked in multiple departments and agencies. And I guess I just wanted to.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Ask you why you would use a language like villains in talking about people serving our nation.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

In those comments, I was referring to the bureaucracies that I believe have been weaponized. And there are portions of weaponized bureaucracies.

[Jeff Merkley]

Across the federal government.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The Senate Budget Committee, which also has jurisdiction over the Office of Management and Budget, will hold a second confirmation hearing on Russell Volk tomorrow. Joining us now is the top Democrat on the Senate Budget Committee, Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon. He's also a member of the Appropriations Committee. Senator Merkley, I have some doubts about that answer. He just gave the idea that there are weaponized federal workers out there and he only means them when he's talking about federal workers.

[Jeff Merkley]

No, absolutely. Let's recognize that Russell Vogt may well be the most dangerous nominee that Trump has been put forward. He hasn't gotten the same attention as many others. But why do I say that? Major architect of Project 2025. He has, he's whip smart, he has vast experience. He was the director of the Office of Management and Budget at the end of the last Trump administration. And he is ideolog. And what he wants to do is cut the basic programs that support healthcare, housing, education and good paying jobs and things like child tax credit. He wants to cut those and he wants to drive through massive new tax cuts for the very richest Americans. That's what he's all about. And he has made it very clear that he's willing to break the law to do so. In fact, GAO found he broke the law eight times by keeping agencies open that he wasn't supposed to keep open. And in addition, he has this theory about impoundments in which the President can decide how much is spent on programs, rather than Congress deciding it's been adjudicated time and time again. But he came into my office and said he has no hesitation in continuing to advise the President to not follow the law put forward by Congress.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You know, as you know, this obsession with federal workers, if you fired every single one of them, you couldn't come close to balancing the budget. That would only get you $250 billion if you fired every one of them. Tiny fraction of what they will be spending on the tax cuts and other issues.

[Jeff Merkley]

Yeah, this is kind of the taking the war against government. I really appreciated what Andy Kim said. I worked for Secretary Weinberger under President Reagan in the office of Secretary of Defense. I worked for the Congressional Budget Office in a nonpartisan role. And I can tell you I saw so many people working so hard to make this government deliver for the people. But if what you want is to shrink the programs for ordinary people, you attack the people who administer those programs while you rush through tax cuts for the very. And when we're talking about Russell Vogt wanting to do basically $4.6 trillion in giveaways where almost all of it goes to the richest Americans. And how's he going to pay for that? Well, he's going to cut a whole lot of programs. In his last budget with Trump, he proceeded to say we should get rid of community development, block grants for housing. We should make student loans for students for college much more expensive. We should cut about a trillion dollars out of health care for families that are struggling to get on their feet and they need that health care to be able to go get a job is just attack one program after the other. And this is the great betrayal Trump ran on being a champion for families. And Russell Vogt represents the real Trump agenda, which is to attack the programs for families and deliver massive wealth to the already wealthiest.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I think it's fairly easy when we're thinking about which Trump nominee may break the law or break the law the most. One candidate is the one who's already done it. Senator Jeff Merkley, thank you very much for joining our discussion.

[Jeff Merkley]

You're very welcome. Thank you, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. And coming up, the remarkable life and career of Cecile Richards. That's next.

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Jim Himes]

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The first time I walked into the convention hall at a presidential nominating convention was in 1988 when the Democrats were nominating Massachusetts Governor Michael Dukakis to run against the then Vice President of the United States, George H.W. bush. And the very first voice I heard in that convention hall in the middle of her speech when I entered, Richard was Texas State Treasurer Ann Richards. Poor George.

[Rachel Maddow]

He can't help it. He was born with a silver foot in his mouth.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Ann Richards was then the most prominent woman in American politics. She went on to serve as Governor of Texas and was defeated in her re election campaign as governor in 1994 by the first first time candidate for office named George W. Bush. Here she is with her then 38 year old daughter Cecile. After that reelection campaign.

[Rachel Maddow]

Were you worried about her? Was I worried about her? I mean, I guess, you know, she's been through it all. Worry about her is not a term I would use.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, I don't think that's a problem.

[Rachel Maddow]

No.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Cecile Richards went on to serve as the president of Planned Parenthood and became a frequent guest on this program, including March 5, 2020, on the night Elizabeth Warren was the last woman to drop out of the campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination. Joining Cecile on the program that night was her daughter Lily, who worked on Kamala Harris's presidential campaign that year. Cecile, your mother was that kind of inspiration and Elizabeth Warren is one of this generation's inspirations like that. The message I hope is getting through that. That's what girls do.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's. And Elizabeth said it herself tonight. I think all the women who have run for president have touched literally thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of women in this country. And I do kind of, I love thinking about this tonight because I thought about, you know, my mom, Lily's grandmother, Ann Richards, who there are now women in the legislature in the state of Texas. We have the first women in Congress that are Latina, from the state of Texas. There's a slew of women now in office in Texas and that is how change happens. I think we all wish that change would happen faster. But the most important thing is what Ann Richards believed, what Elizabeth Warren said tonight, which is you can't give up hope.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

In 2023, Cecile Richards was diagnosed with glioblastoma, the same aggressive fatal brain cancer that took President Biden's son Beau. I last saw Cecile Richards at a small group dinner in New Orleans last March when she was as cheerful and passionate as ever without showing the slightest hint of what she was suffering. Yesterday, Cecile Richards family released this announcement. This morning, our beloved Cecile passed away at home surrounded by her family and her ever loyal dog, Ollie. Our hearts are broken today, but no words can do justice to the joy she brought to our lives. We are grateful to the doctors and healthcare workers who provided her excellent care and the friends, family and well wishers who have been by her side during this challenging time. If you'd like to celebrate Cecile today, we invite you to put on some New Orleans jazz, gather with friends and family over a good meal and remember something she said a lot over the last year. It's not hard to imagine future generations one day asking when There was so much at stake for our country. What did you do? The only acceptable answer is everything we could. Kirk, Lily, Hannah, and Daniel. Cecile Richards was 67 years old. President Biden, who awarded Cecile Richards the Presidential Medal of Freedom in November, said, jill and I are deeply saddened to learn of the passing of Cecile Richards. Cecile fearlessly led us forward to be the America we say we are. Carrying her mom's torch for justice. She champions some of our nation's most important civil rights causes. She fought for the dignity of workers, defended and advanced women's reproductive rights and equality, and mobilized our fellow Americans to exercise their power to vote. She was a leader of utmost character, and I know that her legacy will continue to inspire generations to come. Jill and I are sending our love and strength to her husband Kirk, her children Daniel, Hannah, and Lily, her grandson Teddy, and the entire Richards family. In August of last year, Cecile Richards followed in her mother's footsteps when she stepped up to the microphone at the Democratic National Convention.

[Rachel Maddow]

These last few weeks have been a celebration of women, from cheering on Team USA to supporting Kamala Harris for her preference president. As my mother, Governor Ann Richards, would say, I hear America singing. When women are free to make their own decisions about their lives and to follow our dreams, we are unstoppable.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Well, in the hour since I announced. Is that sound coming back into the studio here? Yeah, it is. In the hours since I announced that I was joining blue sky, about 35, 37,000 of you have managed to find me there. So I guess at this pace of 35,000 an hour, I should have about a billion followers. I don't know, by the weekend or something. I've got one post up there. This is where I'm gonna be hanging out on social media. Blue Sky. See you there. That is tonight's last word.

[Ted Danson]

Hey, friends, Ted Danson here, and I want to let you know about my new podcast. It's called where everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes doing this podcast is a chance for me and my good bud Woody to reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years ago. Plus, we're introducing each other to the friends we've met since, like Jane Fonda, Conan O'Brien, Eric Andre, Mary Steenburgen, my wife, and Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And trust me, it's always a great hang when Woody's there, so why wait? Listen to where everybody knows your name. Wherever you get your podcasts.