← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Lawrence on Trump's second term: 'He is in his 94th consecutive day of failure'
00:42:04
Tonight on The Last Word: China denies Donald Trump’s claims of “active” tariff talks. Also, The New York Times reports that Trump is pressuring Ukraine to accept a peace plan that sharply favors Russia. And tariffs could be a major issue in the 2025 Senate race. Catherine Rampell, Timothy Snyder, and Jordan Wood join Lawrence O’Donnell.
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- [00:00]
Adam Pally
Adam Pali here and I'm John Gabris. We're a couple actors and best friends who you may know as the host of the TV show 101 Places to Party before youe Die. Now we're bringing you a comedic look at health and wellness with our new show, Staying Alive. We'll have guests like our friend actor Jerry O'Connell, ketamine therapist Dr. Steven Radowitz, Paul Scheer, Ego Wodem, Gillian Bell, Dr. Dolittle. Staying alive with John Gabris. And Adam Pali is out right now. Get them a week early and ad free with SiriusXM podcast plus on Apple Podcasts.
- [00:31]
Unknown
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- [01:03]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Now it's time for the last word with the great Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence.
- [01:07]
Rachel Maddow
Good evening, Rachel. I have a thought exercise for you. Perhaps I should wait until the 101st day for this. But let's think about it because we might not come up with the answer right away. Jonathan Alter wrote a wonderful book about Franklin Delano Roosevelt's first hundred days of titled the Defining FDR's Hundred Days and the Triumph of Hope. Got any ideas about a book title for the first hundred days of this one?
- [01:41]
Lawrence O'Donnell
The Triumph of Oops? Maybe. I don't know. I mean, I continue to. I maintain my thesis at least, and I could be proven wrong because 100 days isn't up yet and something crazy could happen between now and then. But I continue to believe that the most important thing we have learned about Donald Trump being back in power thus far in these first hundred days is that contrary to all the punditry, that said, this time he's not gonna be so bumbling this time he's A, out for revenge and B, he's gonna be really good at stuff. I think the most important lesson we've learned here is that he's terrible at everything he's trying to do. Regardless of whether you like what he's trying to do or you don't like what he's trying to do, it's just been one error after error after error. And all the stuff that he's had to reverse and take back and pretend he didn't do, it's an astonishing amount of just failure on his own terms. And so I'd get oops in the title somewhere. I just don't know exactly how the rest of the phrase would go.
- [02:41]
Rachel Maddow
You know, during the Trump era, beginning fairly early in it, I learned to give up predicting. And especially when I very confidently said, when he went up to 12% in the polls in the Republican primary, I can remember very confidently saying, well, it's not going to get any higher than that. So I have given up predicting, but. And I've also turned away from segments that are oriented toward predicting things that haven't happened since. There's an awful lot to deal with right in front of us here. He really has made predicting impossible, as Wall street found out the hard way. But here's a secret. Here's a prediction I tried to avoid making publicly. I'm one of the people who thought Donald Trump's not gonna do what he says he's going to do with tariffs. Throughout the campaign, I just thought, he's not gonna do it. Joe Biden's gonna hand him, if he wins, the greatest economy a president's ever had. Why would you ever ruin that when you can just spend every day at the golf course and get credit for it? Just. And so I privately thought he won't do the stupid stuff with tariffs that he claims he's going to do. And another good example of why I gave up publicly predicting anything.
- [04:02]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Yeah. As the, you know, the wheel spins. Never put your chips down on. Won't do the stupid thing.
- [04:11]
Rachel Maddow
Right, yeah. Yes, we've learned that. We have learned that. That's it.
- [04:16]
Lawrence O'Donnell
We've learned that.
- [04:17]
Rachel Maddow
Thank you, Rachel. Thank you for that advice. Thank you very much. Let's keep Rachel laughing. Just the sound of that off camera. We could live with that. The focus, you know, on the first hundred days of a presidency actually began 92 years ago with the first hundred days of Franklin Delano Roosevelt's presidency in 1933, in the depth of the Great Depression. It was a worldwide economic depression caused to some degree by the Republican President Herbert Hoover signing into law a Republican tariff bill pushed through the Congress by Senator Reed Smoot and Congressman Willis Hawley. President Roosevelt did more in his first hundred days than any other president in history, more to build back the economy of this country with a flood of legislation and executive action that stabilized the banking system that was on the verge of collapse, delivered new employment opportunities for workers, basically created the shape of the modern economy that we have all been living with since. Donald Trump is in his 94th day, and his presidency is sinking lower than any previous presidency in its 94th day. Donald Trump has scared a lot of people. Donald Trump has heaped cruelty on people, but not as much cruelty as he wants to. Donald Trump's mass deportation plan is a complete failure at the mass level. We have not seen mass deportations. We have seen relatively small deportations with some glaringly stupid, cruel, illegal, and unconstitutional mistakes that they have made. We have seen the most dramatic stock market crash ever caused by a single human being. And today, Donald Trump is effectively trying to have the United States switch sides in the middle of a war. The war the man he admires and has called a genius, Vladimir Putin, started in Ukraine. Donald Trump said he would end the war in Ukraine on the first day of his presidency. He's in the 94th consecutive day of failure on that promise to end the war in Ukraine on the first day. He has failed every day on the economy. And he has surrounded himself with the most incompetent Cabinet, the White House and White House's advisors in history. And the public, including Trump voters have noticed and have turned on Donald Trump. There will be some Trump voters who support Donald Trump until the end, just as there were some Nixon voters who supported Richard Nixon after articles of impeachment were drawn up against him and after he resigned from the presidency and accepted a pardon for crimes committed during his presidency. But the marginal voter who made Donald Trump, that swing voter who made Donald Trump president, has now turned against Donald Trump. If those voters voted for Donald Trump because they believed China would pay his tariffs, they now know that they have to pay those tariffs. They have learned the hard way that they have to pay those tariffs, and they don't like it. And so Donald Trump's power is slipping and could slip away if the polling disaster Donald Trump is personally facing right now, tonight spreads to Republicans in the Senate and the House facing reelection next year. Donald Trump will never face reelection again in his life, but Republican senators will. And if their polling numbers start to get as bad as Donald Trump's, they will then be able to abandon Donald Trump because they have never actually feared Donald Trump. Republican senators and House members have always feared Donald Trump's voters. They have always feared Donald Trump's voters throwing them out of their jobs. The vividness of the incompetence in Donald Trump's Cabinet from a Treasury secretary who gets in Screaming matches in the White House with the richest person in the world because the richest person in the world is seizing the department that's supposed to be running by the Treasury Secretary to the inane babblings of a Commerce Secretary who promised people that the Tesla stock price would go up and urge them to buy Tesla stock. Something that no previous member of a cabinet has ever done. Advocating the purchase of a private stock is as unethical as a Cabinet member can possibly get. Not criminal. But criminal is the next step for that kind of behavior. And then there's the guy who said I'll hook you up to an effing polygraph. Screamed that. How unhinged do you have to be to scream that at an admiral? I'll hook you up to an effing polygraph. That's what the Wall street polygraph. That's what the Wall Street Journal is reporting tonight. 44 year old Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, who sounds 14 years old, shouted at Admiral Christopher Grady, who was then the Acting Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Admiral Grady was never hooked up to a polygraph, despite the profane screamed threat by the Secretary of Defense. Pete Hegseth promised that he would quit drinking completely stop if he was confirmed and became Secretary of Defense. That was his promise. He would stop drinking if he became Secretary of Defense. And implicitly in that promise, he would maybe keep drinking if he didn't become Secretary of Defense. Screaming I'll hook you up to a f ing polygraph to an admiral should get you hooked up to a Breathalyzer. Any Trump voter can see how incompetent this Secretary of Defense is when he is leaking sensitive information that he claims isn't classified and everyone else in government insists is classified to his wife and to a journalist at the Atlantic. Pete Hegseth has never denied leaking specific combat information to his wife or to a journalist from the Atlantic. But he has said that those battle plans were not classified information. All battle plans have always been classified information. It's why classification was invented. The most protected information in the history of the American government has always been the details of the next combat attack the American government is going to launch. According to Pete Hegseth's brand new definition of classified that has never existed before, General Dwight Eisenhower could have told his wife all about the D Day invasion and exactly which day in the spring or early summer of 1944 he was thinking about. According to Pete Hegseth's new definition of classified. General Eisenhower could have told his wife when he delayed the invasion by One day, he could have told his wife exactly where the invasion was going to be, exactly which beaches in Normandy. The American and British allies spent months and months and months, did a great deal of classified work to try to convince the Germans that they were going to invade Europe at a different location from where they actually did invade Europe. And that location was classified, just like every other location of every other American battle plan. And every one of those details was classified for every minute that those details were being contemplated or planned or carried out. And so even the most uninformed Trump voter in the country, which is probably Donald Trump himself, knows that battle plans have always been classified, and a Secretary of Defense is not supposed to tell anyone about them very much, including his wife. Pete Hegseth is making the stupidity of the Trump administration fully vivid to anyone who might still be having a bit of trouble understanding just how stupid the Trump tariffs are or how stupid and harmful to international security. Donald Trump's switching sides in the war in Ukraine is, as you may have.
- [12:38]
Adam Pally
Noticed, the media likes to call it chaos.
- [12:44]
Rachel Maddow
I'll hook you up to an effing polygraph. Screamed at an admiral. That could be chaos. That could be ranked stupidity. That could be a lot of things. But what the vast majority of Americans know is that that stuff only happens in a Trump administration, and nothing like it has ever happened when anyone else has been President of the United States. Donald Trump's first hundred days will be studied almost as much as Franklin Roosevelt's first hundred days, and they will be studied for the opposite reasons. The Roosevelt hundred days became the model for every subsequent president to aspire to. No president has ever faced greater challenges in his first hundred days than Franklin Roosevelt faced or accomplished more. No president has ever accomplished more than those first hundred days. No president ever faced an easier first hundred days than Donald Trump. And no president has ever turned the best economy ever handed to an incoming president into a disaster. With predictions of recession and China responding to a trade war with the promise we will fight to the end. Donald Trump's friendliest polling operation, the Fox Network, has produced the most disastrous report card on any president's first hundred days in a country that does not teach economics in high school as a required subject and does not teach economics anywhere as a required subject. Donald Trump has always scored well in polling questions about the economy in a country uneducated about the economy. He's never scored well with people who actually understand the economy and know what tariffs are. But in general polling, he has scored very well on the economy, and that's all over now. Donald Trump destroyed that. Donald Trump destroyed that polling advantage he used to have in the 94th day of his presidency. According to Fox, 38% of registered voters approve of Donald Trump's handling of the economy. 30. That number used to be often 20 points higher than that for Donald Trump, almost always above 50%. Now he's at 38%. And it gets worse. Donald Trump's handling of inflation, the very thing he claimed he was going to fix on the first day of his presidency, the reason so many people voted for him. Donald Trump's handling of inflation has the approval now of just 33% of voters. Same with Donald Trump's tariffs. The candidate who ran for president saying tariff was his favorite word. The candidate who ran for president lying to every voter every day that China would pay the tariffs that Donald Trump's audience would in fact have to pay. Those people who are now listening to radio ads and TV ads from car dealers telling them it's time to run out and get to the dealerships to get the pre tariff price on cars. Those people have turned against Donald Trump. And only 33% approve of Donald Trump's tariffs. 72% now know Donald Trump was lying about tariffs and inflation. 72% correctly believe Donald Trump's tariffs will increase the cost of products, according to the Fox poll. Donald Trump said it himself yesterday, as I pointed out here last night, and it's worth pointing it out again because it's the first time in his life he has ever admitted that a tariff is something added to the price of goods in the United States. So when you add that to the price of a product, you know a lot of those products aren't going to sell. Yeah, you add that to the price of a product. That's right. A tariff is added to the price of a product. And it's also right that a lot of those products won't sell now that they're more expensive and they won't sell to the Americans who are looking at those products in America with the higher price tags because the tariffs and the Americans who still have enough money to buy one of those products are the people who will be paying the Trump tariffs. And Donald Trump has said he doesn't care. Donald Trump has said he doesn't care if prices of cars go up. He said, I couldn't care less if they raised prices. Those are his words. Recessions and economic depressions are driven by real economic conditions, like insanely high tariffs. But feelings also steer an economy toward a recession. If I'm pessimistic about my personal economic future or the country's economic future. I might decide not to buy a car this year or not to buy a house this year or not to buy a new washing machine this year. I might put a lot of stuff, a lot of buying decisions on hold and that slows down the economy and that helps get you to a recession. And Donald Trump is fueling pessimism in this economy which can help push us toward a recession. With just 32% percent telling Fox in their poll that Donald Trump's policies are helping the economy, that means most people don't think Donald Trump's policies are helping the economy. And that is going to make them less enthusiastic about helping to fuel that economy with their purchasing power. 71% tell Fox that the economic conditions are fair or poor. 55% told Fox that the economy is getting worse for their families. Donald Trump couldn't possibly win an election now with 55% saying the economy is getting worse for their families because of him. And with virtually all of those people knowing that it's getting worse entirely because of one person, Donald Trump. Donald Trump's reaction to this report card from Fox about his disastrous 94 days in the presidency was of course an unhinged Trumpian complaint about the poll itself on social media saying, Rupert Murdoch has told me for years that he's going to get rid of his Fox News Trump hating fake pollster, but he has never done so. This pollster has gotten me and MAGA wrong for years also. And while he's at it, he should start making changes at the China loving Wall Street Journal. The China loving Wall Street Journal. Imagine if Joe Biden had ever called it the China loving Wall Street Journal. The screams about Joe Biden's mental competence would be filling the White House press briefing room, filling the Fox studios. Donald Trump appears to be caught in what will be the thousands upon thousands of lies he tells in his second term as president. We might not have an official count of those lies this time because the Washington Post's owner has decided to stop counting them in the first Trump presidency. Jeff Bezos, Washington Post caught Donald Trump in 30,573 provable lies. And so with that in mind, Donald Trump is claiming that negotiations are underway on a great trade deal with China. But China is saying there are no negotiations. None. The New York Times David Sanger reports the White House kept hinting that the Chinese were beginning to negotiate, seeking a way to end the tariffs. In fact, the strategy that Beijing appeared to be following was, was to wait for Mr. Trump to feel the pain of his own actions. The expected phone call from President Xi Jinping never came, and Mr. Trump didn't want to be the first to call either, a sign of desperation in private, some Trump officials concede that they did not accurately predict China's reaction. Mr. Trump seemed to expect China to be among the first to come begging for relief, given the size of its exports to the United States. CNBC's Eunice Yun reports from Beijing.
- [20:13]
Kathryn Rampell
This tougher stance comes as a perception is growing here that the Chinese government is really trying to foment that the Chinese have the upper hand and that President Trump is in a weaker position. The hashtag Trump ChickeningOut has been trending with 250 million views. State TV has also been using one of the memes that has bursted onto the scene here when mocking President Trump, officially calling him the 10,000 tariff grandpa and saying that his constituents have been suffering because of some of his actions. The other memes that are going around King know it all and Trump the nation builder.
- [20:56]
Rachel Maddow
But that Nation is China, CNBC reports. Quote @ present there are absolutely no negotiations on the economy and trade between China and the U.S. ministry of Commerce spokesperson told reporters in Mandarin translated by cnbc. He added that all sayings regarding progress on bilateral talks should be dismissed. If the US really wants to resolve the problem, it should cancel all unilateral measures on China. And yesterday a spokesperson for the Chinese government said we will fight till the end. Donald Trump is not saying we will fight till the end. None of the Trump administration cheerleaders of the tariffs during the first week of the tariffs, none of them is now saying we will fight to the end. Donald Trump's enthusiasm for trying to save TikTok in the United States might weaken now that the China owned TikTok is filled with anti Trump tariff posts. And TikTok is not the only humiliation Donald Trump is suffering in China. New York Times reports that in China the Internet is filled with images, videos, music, mostly generated by artificial intelligence, mocking the American leaders for what the Chinese believe are ridiculous and outrageous policies and remarks. Mr. Trump is mocked for expecting a call from Mr. Xi, who's ghosting him to make a trade deal. In a widely shared AI generated image, a character that looks like Mr. Trump lies on a pink bed in a pastel colored children's bedroom. With his face resting on his hands. He stares at a smartphone behind him. On the wall is a large portrait of Mr. Xi smiling. Ha ha ha. Who's going to call after a breakup Commented a Weibo user with an Internet address in the northwestern province of Ganzhu. Do you think you're filming a soap opera? Mr. Vance has attracted the most brutal trolling. His peasants comment offended many Chinese. In a widely shared AI generated video, a character resembling Mr. Vance in a pink jacket, pink nails and hot pink lipstick, applies eyeliner while saying in a promotional female tone, CIS hillbilly brand eyeliner made in China, reliable quality. Another video shows a cartoon character saying, vice President Vance, I'm a Chinese peasant. Do you realize your tariff policy will lead to the soaring price of your eyeliner? There are so many posts about the topic that Mr. Vance is now known as the Eyeliner man on the Chinese Internet. Agreeing with Mitch McConnell didn't used to be such a strange feeling for me. He was a Republican member of the Senate Finance Committee, which has jurisdiction over tariffs and taxation. When I was the chief of staff of that committee under the Democratic Chairman, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, I disagreed with Mitch McConnell completely and always about taxes, then and now. But I mostly agreed with him and many other Republicans about tariffs, as did many Democrats today. Mitch McConnell made me feel like I was back in the hearing room on the Senate Finance Committee, sitting behind the senators while he said something that every member of the Senate Finance Committee, Democrat and Republican in those days, would have agreed with about tariffs. I think the public needs to understand this issue is not about exporting jobs. It's a tax increase for everybody, for everybody. That's where the cost will end up being sent. And so this is part of the public education of the impact of a tariff war. It's also, for those who are paying close attention to it, remarkably similar to what happened in the 30s. It was called the Smoot Hawley Taft bill signed by Herbert Hoover before FDR came into office, which was widely thought to help move the Depression worldwide. And the slogan in the 30s was America First. So we've seen this in history unfold in a way that did not work for us or for other countries. And there's some of us who think, Mr. President, why don't we try something different? It's a tax on everybody. That is exactly what tariffs are. Leading off our discussion tonight is Kathryn Rampel, co host of of the new evening edition of MSNBC's the Weekend on Saturday and Sunday. She's also an opinion columnist for the Washington Post. Katherine, thanks for joining us tonight on the tariffs, since so much of the regime stays in place, even though we're hearing from the White House that there will be some backing down on the China side of it, what are consumers going to be living with as these tariffs really begin to bite a couple of months from now if they stay in place?
- [26:09]
Kathryn Rampell
Well, that's the real question here, right? That Trump keeps on producing this vaporware, these fake outs about how there will be some de escalation, Trump or anonymous officials in the White House who appear to be wishcasting about all of that. But for the time being, we still have very high tariffs around the world, at least 10%, which during the campaign was of course the worst case scenario, something too insane to believe that Trump would actually execute, as well as tariffs of up to 145% on China. Now a lot of those tariffs will be passed along to Americans. Now whether those, those, the incidents of those tariffs will be borne entirely by consumers or by the importers or wholesalers or retailers. It really depends on the market. But I think we cannot avoid the idea that prices will rise as a result of everything that we import coming into the United States getting this tax.
- [27:16]
Rachel Maddow
Yeah, I mean I keep hearing the thing that I think is penetrating more than anything in news coverage could penetrate are those TV ads, radio ads about get to the car dealership to get the pre tariff prices. That teaches the lesson about tariffs more clearly than anybody else could.
- [27:36]
Kathryn Rampell
Look, of course companies are going to use whatever excuse they have to market at current economic conditions. But in these cases it is likely going to be true for autos in particular, if not only the autos themselves, but also the parts, the auto parts that are imported that American companies or US based plants in any event need to build cars. If all of those things get more expensive, yes, that will be passed along to consumers and or we will just have shortages. Either the price is going to go up or you won't have the goods on the shelves, the cars in the lots, or probably some combination of both of those things.
- [28:18]
Rachel Maddow
And consumers will notice stability, which is what Wall street craves and what business planners crave. And by the way, what we would all like to have in our economic lives is completely unachievable. It seems possibly during this entire presidency. Since Donald Trump is maintaining that the tariffs on any given day are completely up to him.
- [28:41]
Kathryn Rampell
Yeah, how can a business make decisions about where to invest, whether to invest, whether to hire, whether to make purchase orders from where, it's just impossible. So even if these tariffs eventually go away, let's say, or get gets scaled back, in the meantime, businesses are paralyzed and that in and of itself feeds into greater economic malaise. Consumers notice right they get worried about their jobs, they get worried about prices going up. And so maybe they pull back, they stop spending. That in and of itself, as you were describing before, can feed into basically a self fulfilling prophecy of at the very least, a slowdown and potentially at worst, a recession or global depression. Heaven forbid. But, but yes, this uncertainty is just paralyzing and the costs, I mean, in many ways, if Trump would just decide this is the regime, yes, we're going to have 145% tariffs on Chinese goods, that would be bad, but it would probably still be better than the current status quo because at least companies could work around that. They would know what the rules of the road are. They could plan. And that would give greater certainty to their employ and to their customers.
- [30:05]
Rachel Maddow
And that Fox poll is telling the White House exactly what voters are feeling about this. Katherine Rappel, thank you very much for starting off our discussions tonight.
- [30:15]
Kathryn Rampell
Thank you.
- [30:16]
Rachel Maddow
Thank you. And coming up, Donald Trump's response to Vladimir Putin murdering more Ukrainians with a new round of missile strikes in Ukraine's capital city today was to say literally, Vladimir, stop. Those are his words on social media, of course, not directly to Vladimir Putin. Donald Trump's attempt to become the first president in history to change sides in the middle of war is next with Yale professor Timothy Snyder.
- [30:45]
Adam Pally
Adam Pal here and I'm John Gabris. We're a couple actors and best friends who you may know as the host of the TV show 101 Places to Party before you die. Now we're bringing you a comedic look at health and wellness with our new show, Staying Alive. We'll have Garrett guests like our friend, actor Jerry O'Connell, ketamine therapist Dr. Stephen Radowitz, Paul Schier, Ego Wodom, Gillian Bell, Dr. Doolittle. Staying alive with John Gabris and Adam Pally is out right now. Get them a week early and ad free with Sirius XM podcast plus on Apple Podcasts.
- [31:16]
Unknown
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Rachel Maddow
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Rachel Maddow
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- [32:10]
Rachel Maddow
Head to your DSW store or visit dsw.com today, 93 days after Donald Trump promised, had promised he would have ended the war in Ukraine on the first day of his presidency, Donald Trump posted this on social media today. I am not happy with the Russian strikes in Kyiv. Not necessary and very bad timing. Vladimir, stop. Exclamation point. 5,000 soldiers a week are dying. Let's get the peace deal done. Of course, he always exaggerates the number of people who are dying. And Donald Trump, what he's actually proposing in Ukraine is not a peace deal. It is a surrender deal. He is trying to become the first president in history to switch sides in the middle of a war and force Ukraine to surrender to Vladimir Putin. Everything Vladimir Putin has stolen from Ukraine in Vladimir Putin's war against Ukraine, which Donald Trump said was genius. That was his word for it, genius. In the first days of that war. During the presidential campaign, Donald Trump said this. If I'm president, I will have that war settled in 1 day, 24 hours.
- [33:25]
Kathryn Rampell
How would you settle that war in one day?
- [33:27]
Rachel Maddow
Because I'll meet with Putin. I'll meet with Zelensky. They both have weaknesses and they both have strengths. And within 24 hours, that war will be settled. It'll be over. It'll be absolutely.
- [33:37]
Unknown
Do you want you.
- [33:41]
Rachel Maddow
He promised day one. We're at day 94. And his friend Vladimir Putin, according to NBC News, struck Ukraine's capital city, Kyiv, today with, quote, 70 missiles, 48 of which were shot down and 140 drones, 64 shot down. Ukraine's air force said the death toll has risen to 12, according to Ukrainian officials. And after they recovered two bodies from under the rubble, another 90 people were injured. Today, Donald Trump admitted that he wants all of the concessions in a ceasefire deal to be made exclusively by Ukraine. While he has demanded no concessions at all from Russia, what concessions has Russia offered up thus far to get to the point where you're closer to peace, Stopping the war, stopping taking the whole country? Pretty big concession. Joining us now is Timothy Snyder, professor of history at Yale University. He's the author of the New York Times bestsellers on freedom and on Tyranny. His book on tyranny is Currently number one in paperback nonfiction. New York Times bestseller list. Professor Snyder. It was so jarring to see those people in that audience clapping for Donald Trump, ending that war on day one because they believed him, because they thought he could do this. What are we seeing today that is a result of Donald Trump's approach to this, given that he has, in effect, done everything he can now to side with Vladimir Putin?
- [35:16]
Timothy Snyder
Mr. Trump is an excellent television entertainer, and the bit that you showed is a good example of that. Of course, it's great TV to say you can end a war in one day. The problem is that as President of the United States, he also behaves as if everything were a television show, as if installing, for example, a makeup room in the Pentagon is the kind of thing that will change the overall geopolitical situation around the world. No one accepts this television show. No one's watching that channel. There are still Americans who think that he has some kind of skill or some kind of plan. But that charisma just doesn't work in Russia or in China, as we've seen. You can't bluff your way to peace, and you can't get. You can't get to peace by siding with the aggressor. What Mr. Trump has done is he's basically asked Russia to write a list of the things that it would like to get and then pretend that that's some kind of a peace plan. It's not a peace plan. It offers nothing to Ukraine. It gives things to Russia that Russia couldn't get on its own. And more than that, it completely undermines the international order built after the Second World War by acknowledging that Russia has a legal claim to territories that it took by aggression.
- [36:34]
Rachel Maddow
And what commitments does Ukraine have to make in the future, according to the version of the deal that exists now?
- [36:43]
Timothy Snyder
Well, I mean, the. The sa. I mean, part of the sadness, but the moral sadness, but also the geopolitical idiocy of all of this, is that Ukraine isn't actually offered anything. So Ukraine has been defending not only itself, but Europe, the West, the world, for three years. They've taken terrible losses, soldiers and civilians, to defend the rule of law, to hold back Russia, to deter China, basically to fulfill the entire NATO mission, to buy the rest of us time. And in this peace plan, as it's called, that doesn't really exist. It's not a plan. It's not about peace. The Ukrainians are asked to give everything up, and they're offered nothing. I mean, there's all these Russian frozen assets. There's the normal process of rebuilding after war. There's foreign investment, there's EU membership, there's NATO membership, there's security guarantees. There's a possibility of troops on the ground. There's reparations from Russia. Completely normal laundry list of things that Ukraine could expect and none of them is being offered. What Ukraine is expected to do is, in effect, give up a lot of territory, a lot of sovereignty and wait for Russia to attack again.
- [37:49]
Rachel Maddow
We have to squeeze in a quick commercial break here. When we come back, I want to ask you about how the Trump China trade war is seen by the rest of the world and affects the rest of the world. We'll be right back with Professor Timothy Snyder.
- [38:02]
Adam Pally
Adam Pally here, and I'm John Gabris. We're a couple actors and best friends who you may know as the hosts of the TV show 101 Places to Party before you die. Now we're bringing you a comedic look at health and wellness with our new show, Staying Alive. We'll have guests like our friend, actor Jerry O'Connell, ketamine therapist Dr. Stephen Radowitz, Paul Schier, Ego Wodom, Gillian Bell, Dr. Dolittle. Staying alive with John Gabris and Adam Pally is out right now. Get them a week early and ad free with Sirius XM Podcast plus on Apple Podcasts.
- [38:33]
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- [39:39]
Rachel Maddow
Yesterday, a spokesperson for the Chinese government told the world this about Donald Trump's tariffs. China's attitude is consistent and clear. If you want to fight, we will fight to the if you want to talk, the door is open. Back with us, Yale Professor Timothy Snyder. Professor Snyder, what is the world learning about Donald Trump and the United States from his trade war with China to his attempt to reverse the American position in the war in Ukraine?
- [40:13]
Timothy Snyder
Yeah, I mean, number one, the thing that those two events have in common is that everyone can see how easy it is to trigger Trump. All you have to do is tell him that he's being ripped off and then he'll do the thing you want him to do. So the Russians tell Trump that Ukraine is somehow ripping him off. He thinks USAID is a ripoff. People tell him that trade deficits are a rip off. So he puts tariffs around the world. So he's very easily triggered and predictable, which is a bad thing for a US President. Second thing that people can see around the world is that this White House doesn't know how to use policy instruments. No policy instruments were applied on Russia 0 in order to bring Russia to the table. And meanwhile, the policy instruments which were applied to China are quite probably hurting the United States more than the Chinese. But the underlying thing is that all of this opens up the world to China by, by being so unpredictable, irresolute and self harming. The United States is essentially not only bailing out Russia and Europe, but it's creating a world in which China looks like the more reliable partner. And the Chinese see this and so does everybody else.
- [41:17]
Rachel Maddow
Professor Timothy Snyder, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thank you. Maine's Republican Senator Susan Collins says she is concerned about the Trump tariffs against Maine's biggest trading partner, Canada. But a new Democratic candidate for Senate in Maine says Susan Collins repeated concerns about Donald Trump are not enough. Jordan Wood announced his candidacy for Senate in Maine today and will join us next. California was the first state to sue the Trump administration over the unconstitutional Trump tariffs. And today 12 other states joined together in a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the Trump tariffs. One of the states joining today's lawsuit is Maine, which shares a border with Canada. Canada is Maine's largest international trading partner, which has made Maine's retire Republican Senator Susan Collins a bit concerned about the Trump tariffs. For example, many Maine blueberries are processed in Prince Edward Island. Maine also sends between 200 million and $400 million worth of lobster to Canada each year year for processing. There are 240 lobster processing plants in Canada, but only 15 in the United States. The fact is that if we impose these tariffs on Canadian processing, it's going to be our main lobstermen who will bear the cost. It's going to be consumed consumers who bear the cost. Susan Collins vote in the Senate could help stop the Trump tariffs. And she is now facing a new Democratic candidate for Senate in Maine, Jordan Wood.
- [43:21]
Jordan Wood
I truly believe this is a make or break moment. We've got a wannabe dictator in the White House stomping on our rights, shredding alliances and handing Elon Musk a chain. And Susan Collins, she says she's worried that she's concerned Maine needs more than concern. I spent the last decade taking on the powerful, fighting to get corporate money out of our politics, holding CEOs accountable as Katie Porter's chief of staff and defeating election deniers. It's time for courage, not concern. I'm Jordan Wood and I hope you'll join me.
- [43:58]
Rachel Maddow
Joining us now is Jordan Wood, Democratic candidate running for United States Senate in Maine. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. What is at stake for Maine in the current Trump tariff regime?
- [44:12]
Jordan Wood
Well, thanks for having me, Lawrence. You know, I grew up in Lewiston, Maine, a central part of the state working class family. My father was a pastor, my mom a teacher. Most of my childhood, we lived paycheck to paycheck. And these tariffs are going to mean higher prices on everyday goods for all Mainers, from groceries to the cost of buying a car to lobster processing. As Senator McCarland said, this is a time where Maine really needs a courageous leader and advocate for them. And that's just not what we're seeing from Senator Collins.
- [44:52]
Rachel Maddow
I saw in your social media posting today something I loved. You were in second grade when Susan Collins was elected to the United States Senate.
- [45:03]
Jordan Wood
Yep, that's right.
- [45:06]
Rachel Maddow
So your experience working in the House with Katie Porter, what will that do for you in terms of your ability to negotiate the Senate?
- [45:18]
Jordan Wood
Well, you know, Katie Porter, she's a great example of a courageous leader for everyday working families. And she knows how to use her position to bring real change to people's lives. Holding corporate CEOs accountable, Big Pharma executives, and showing what it's like to have a leader who will represent and serve regular working people. That's the leader that Maine needs right now, is someone who's gonna be their advocate. Advocate, not on the side of corporate PACs and lobbyists and special interests.
- [45:53]
Rachel Maddow
Jordan Wood, Democratic candidate for Senate in Maine. Thank you very much for joining us tonight at the beginning of your campaign.
- [46:00]
Jordan Wood
Thanks so much for having me, Lawrence.
- [46:02]
Rachel Maddow
Thank you. We'll be right back. Democratic candidate for Senate in Maine, Jordan Wood, gets tonight's last word.
- [46:13]
Adam Pally
Adam Pally here. And I'm John Gabris. We're a couple actors and best friends who you may know as the host of the TV show 101 Places to Party before youe Die. Now we're bringing you a comedic look at health and wellness with our new show, Staying Alive. We'll have guests like our friend, actor Jerry O'Connell, ketamine therapist Dr. Steven Radowitz, Paul Scheer, Ego Wodom, Gillian Bell, Dr. Dolittle. Staying alive with John Gabris and Adam Pali is out right now. Get them a week early and ad free with SiriusXM podcast plus on Apple Podcasts.