Lawrence on Trump's 'vile, antisemitic' attack on Schumer: Trump's mind is gone. It is shattered.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell Episode Title: Lawrence on Trump's 'Vile, Antisemitic' Attack on Schumer: Trump's Mind is Gone. It Is Shattered. Release Date: March 13, 2025

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1. Introduction

In this episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves into the disturbing remarks made by former President Donald Trump regarding Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer. The episode critically examines Trump's antisemitic comments, his mental state, and the broader implications for American politics and national security.

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2. Trump's Antisemitic Remarks Toward Chuck Schumer

Rachel Maddow opens the discussion by highlighting Trump's recent offensive statements about Chuck Schumer. She condemns Trump's characterization of Schumer as "Palestinian" and asserts that such rhetoric is not only antisemitic but also indicative of Trump's deteriorating mental state.

• Quote:
  • Rachel Maddow [04:16]: “Chuck Schumer is a Palestinian as far as I'm concerned. You know, he's become a Palestinian. He used to be Jewish. He's not Jewish anymore. That is how the anti Semitic President of the United States sees Jewish men.”

Analysis: Maddow connects Trump's comments to his previous derogatory remarks about Jewish people, emphasizing the continuity of his antisemitic views.

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3. Analysis of Trump's Mental State

Maddow argues that Trump's statements reflect severe cognitive decline, suggesting his inability to comprehend the gravity and offensiveness of his words.

• Quote:
  • Rachel Maddow [03:45]: “Donald Trump's mind is gone. It is shattered. You just saw that there is no recognizable neurological function going on there.”

Insight: This assessment raises concerns about Trump's capacity to govern effectively, especially given his access to critical national security information.

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4. Republican Response to Trump's Comments

Maddow criticizes the Republican Party for their silence and lack of condemnation regarding Trump's antisemitic remarks.

• Quote:
  • Rachel Maddow [05:44]: “Not a single Republican anywhere in America who claims to be a staunch supporter of Israel and the Jewish people rose up to object to Donald Trump declaring Chuck Schumer to not be Jewish anymore.”

Discussion: The absence of Republican opposition underscores a troubling alliance with Trump's divisive rhetoric, potentially alienating Jewish communities and other minority groups.

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5. Impact on National Security

The episode underscores the dangers of having a president with questionable mental stability and prejudiced viewpoints, particularly one with access to nuclear codes and executive power.

• Quote:
  • Rachel Maddow [05:18]: “...has access to the nuclear codes while he's saying things like that.”

Conclusion: Maddow warns that Trump's impaired judgment poses significant risks to national and international security.

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6. Mass Deportation Plan and Guantanamo Bay

Maddow shifts focus to Trump's failed mass deportation initiative, specifically the use of Guantanamo Bay as a detention facility for immigrants.

• Quote:
  • Rachel Maddow [21:50]: “The breaking news of the night is the New York Times reporting ICE returns all migrants from Guantanamo to stateside facilities.”

Insight: She highlights the ineffectiveness and exorbitant costs of the operation, questioning its legality and ethical implications.

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7. Interview with Representative Sarah Jacobs on Guantanamo Operations

Sarah Jacobs, a Democratic Representative from California, discusses her firsthand observations of the Guantanamo Bay detention efforts under Trump.

• Quote:
  • Sarah Jacobs [23:21]: “We saw service members guarding empty tents that aren't usable.”

Key Points:

• Lack of operational necessity for using Guantanamo Bay.
• High costs with minimal migrant detention achieved.
• Absence of proper documentation and oversight.

Policy Critique: Jacobs criticizes the administration's haphazard and inefficient approach, emphasizing the misuse of military resources and the failure to achieve promised deportation numbers.

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8. Interview with Professor Timothy Snyder on Antisemitism

Timothy Snyder, a Yale University history professor and author, provides a scholarly analysis of Trump's antisemitic rhetoric and its historical parallels.

• Quote:
  • Timothy Snyder [38:29]: “Carl Lueger was one of the pioneers of modern anti Semitism... he formed the political climate in which Adolf Hitler was raised and educated.”

Analysis:

• Snyder draws comparisons between Trump's statements and historical antisemitic propaganda, particularly referencing Carl Lueger, a figure instrumental in shaping Nazi ideology.

• He warns that such rhetoric erodes the meaning of antisemitism, making it a political tool rather than a genuine expression of hatred.

• Additional Quote:

  • Timothy Snyder [40:35]: “These are people who have spread anti Semitic slurs... this has to be taken really seriously.”

Implications: Snyder emphasizes the long-term dangers of normalizing antisemitic language in the highest office, suggesting it fosters a climate of intolerance and discrimination.

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9. Conclusion and Implications

Lawrence O'Donnell wraps up the episode by reiterating the critical nature of Trump's recent actions and statements. He underscores the need for accountability within the Republican Party and calls for urgent measures to address the threats posed by Trump's leadership.

• Final Thoughts:
  • The episode serves as a stark warning about the repercussions of allowing harmful rhetoric and unfit leadership to persist at the helm of the nation.
  • It calls on listeners to remain vigilant and advocate for policies that protect minority groups and uphold democratic values.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Rachel Maddow [04:16]:

   “Chuck Schumer is a Palestinian as far as I'm concerned. You know, he's become a Palestinian. He used to be Jewish. He's not Jewish anymore. That is how the anti Semitic President of the United States sees Jewish men.”

2. Rachel Maddow [03:45]:

   “Donald Trump's mind is gone. It is shattered. You just saw that there is no recognizable neurological function going on there.”

3. Rachel Maddow [05:44]:

   “Not a single Republican anywhere in America who claims to be a staunch supporter of Israel and the Jewish people rose up to object to Donald Trump declaring Chuck Schumer to not be Jewish anymore.”

4. Sarah Jacobs [23:21]:

   “We saw service members guarding empty tents that aren't usable.”

5. Timothy Snyder [38:29]:

   “Carl Lueger was one of the pioneers of modern anti Semitism... he formed the political climate in which Adolf Hitler was raised and educated.”

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Key Takeaways

• Antisemitism in Politics: Trump's comments represent a dangerous perpetuation of antisemitic tropes, echoing historical figures responsible for similar rhetoric.

• Mental State Concerns: Repeated offensive statements suggest cognitive impairments that could hinder competent governance.

• Party Accountability: The Republican Party's failure to condemn Trump's remarks signifies a troubling alignment that may have broader societal repercussions.

• Policy Failures: The mass deportation plan exemplifies inefficiency and misuse of resources, reflecting poorly on Trump's administration.

• Historical Parallels: Comparisons to pre-Nazi antisemitism highlight the profound risks associated with normalized hate speech in leadership roles.

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This episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell presents a comprehensive critique of Donald Trump's troubling rhetoric and policy failures, emphasizing the urgent need for political accountability and the protection of minority communities.

Transcript

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

There's probably both messaging and policy issues.

[Rachel Maddow]

But as you look to kind of where the Democratic Party is, do you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Now it's time for the Last word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence.

[Rachel Maddow]

Good evening, Rachel. And I know you've pledged to cover and be here for the first hundred days of the Trump presidency. I hope you notice that I did not make that same pledge when you did.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You're not going anywhere, are you?

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, here's the thing. This is day 52. I thought it was day 92. It turns out it's day 52, Rachel. And I'm exhausted at day 52. And so I'm gonna take next week off. And I'm telling you that now because I know you don't like it when I just drift away. And I don't. But just taking next week off, then I can come back and go with you all the way to the hundred days.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I know we all tell each other, you have to take care of yourself. You gotta pace yourself. You gotta be in this for the long haul. And so I can't hold it against you, but I'm very sad.

[Rachel Maddow]

Can you hold this against me? I'm gonna get a head start by taking tomorrow off.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yes.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah, I thought you might. I thought you might, Rachel.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Okay, I'm pre mad right now. It's like. And I'm not. It's not even tomorrow yet.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah, that's why.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Take me. Can I go with you? Where are you going? Don't tell me.

[Rachel Maddow]

No, no, you said 100 days. You said 100 days. You can't. 100 days on the 101st day, Rachel, you and I. Yeah, right. Happy day 52, Rach. Rachel.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Safe travels, Lawrence. Thank you.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you, thank you. And so America is at this hour completing the 52nd day of having a President of the United States whose brain does not work. Donald Trump's brain is broken, badly damaged, as he exhibits every day. And once again today, Donald Trump said something that would have gotten any other president rushed to the hospital for a neutral examination and an evaluation for dementia, for starters. That's where they would have begun. It was a vile anti Semitic outburst by the man who once said this after he saw a black accountant working at one of his failed casinos. Quote, black guys counting my money. I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day. Those are the kind of people I want counting my money. No one else. That is how the anti Semitic President of the United States sees Jewish men. Little short men who wear yarmulkes every day. That's Donald Trump. Donald Trump spewed this demented poison today. What the poison we will get to. It came out of him. In response to this question, Are you.

[Sarah Jacobs]

Planning to lower corporate taxes to match Ireland?

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, we are.

[Donald Trump]

We are planning to lower taxes, yeah, if the Democrats behave. But the Democrats have no clue.

[Rachel Maddow]

Are you planning to lower corporate taxes like Ireland? There's Donald Trump sitting in the Oval Office today with the head of the Irish government, asked a question about corporate taxes in Ireland and the United States, which then got him rambling on for a few completely irrelevant paragraphs that could never be called an answer. And then he ended his response to that question about corporate taxes with this hateful statement about Chuck Schumer.

[Donald Trump]

Schumer is a Palestinian as far as I'm concerned. You know, he's become a Palestinian. He used to be Jewish. He's not Jewish anymore. He's a Palestinian.

[Rachel Maddow]

Not a single Republican anywhere in America who claims to be a staunch supporter of Israel and the Jewish people rose up to object to Donald Trump declaring Chuck Schumer to not be Jewish anymore. So Donald Trump, who has no idea what it is to be Jewish or Palestinian, now decides who is Jewish in this country. Only in his own perverse, deeply brain, deeply perverse brain could he do that. But the disgrace of every elected Republican in Washington is that not one of them dares to complain about that kind of poison coming out of the foul mouth of Donald Trump. And not one of them worries about the mental capacity of the kind of person who can say that, who, oh, by the way, has access to the nuclear codes while he's saying things like that. Donald Trump's mind is gone. It is shattered. You Just saw that there is no recognizable neurological function going on there. Not a single person who ever tries to interpret Donald Trump for you and defensively tries to tell you what Donald Trump meant when he says something insane, ever uses the actual words of Donald Trump to explain Donald Trump. Because Donald Trump, who once said, I have the best words, says things all the time, every day that make absolutely no sense and frequently are filled with hatred. He's not Jewish anymore. So the United States of America now has a head of state who decides who's Jewish and who isn't. Who else had a head of state who did that? Ever heard of a head of state doing anything like that? You have to be in your 90s to remember the last time the world had a head of state who decided who was Jewish and who was not. That was one of Adolf Hitler's first ideas about how to govern Germany. First of all, decide who's Jewish and who is not. The people who attacked the Capitol on January 6th and made their way to the Senate were heard saying, where's the big Jew? They meant Chuck Schumer, who had just become the first Jewish majority leader of the United States Senate in history. The day before the attack. And that was not lost on Trump supporters who attacked the Capitol wearing clothing celebrating the Holocaust. Robert Keith Packer was wearing his Camp Auschwitz hoodie. What would he have done if he had found Chuck Schumer? While Donald Trump's supporters were looking for Chuck Schumer saying, where's the big Jew? Donald Trump was silent for 187 minutes. If Donald Trump was ever going to say Chuck Schumer isn't Jewish, maybe then, maybe then, when his people were walking around the Senate saying, where's the big Jew? Nazis invaded the capital of the United States looking for Chuck Schumer. 76 years after Nazis were rounding up and executing members of Chuck Schumer's family in Nazi death camps, and today the poisonous broken brain of Donald Trump said, he used to be Jewish. He's not Jewish anymore. All of the sane people in the world, all of the sane people in America, all of the sane people in the Republican Party, the sane ones do not have to work hard to not say things like that. They are not spending their day and their energy fighting the impulse to say, Chuck Schumer is not Jewish anymore because they are not insane. On CNBC yesterday, the normally mild mannered, very pro business Steve Leisman used a word I've never heard him use before in his analysis of the economy or the stock market or anything else. It was the word insane, and he applied it to Donald Trump. I'm going to say this at risk of my job, Kelly, but what President Trump is doing is insane. It is absolutely insane. It is about the eighth reason we've had for the tariffs. And now he's saying he's putting 50% tariffs on Canada unless they agree to become the 51st state. That is insane. There is just no other way of describing it. That's enough for Donald Trump to call Steve Liesman a Palestinian. That's enough for Donald Trump to say he's not Jewish anymore. Steve Liesman is not a short guy with a yarmulke. So maybe Donald Trump thinks Steve Liesman doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to anything financial or economic. It took an insane person to make Steve Liesman use the word insane in describing what Donald Trump is doing to the economy and the stock market with his tariffs. And it took an insane person to say Schumer is a Palestinian. As far as I'm concerned, you know, he's become a Palestinian. He used to be Jewish. He's not Jewish anymore. He's a Palestinian. Okay? That's what Donald Trump's last word was. Okay. No, not okay. And it's not okay that we live in a country where that is not a story. It is not okay where the New York Times, which is read by more Jewish people than any other newspaper in the world, doesn't have a story about the President of the United States deciding that the Senate Democratic leader is not Jewish anymore. Once again, imagine what the New York Times would do if Joe Biden had said that. How many inches high would the headline be on page one about Joe Biden or any other president saying that? But Donald Trump's most insane statements, including the ones filled with bigotry and hatred, now just slipped through the cracks, the very big cracks in the American news media. And most people in Israel and most people in the world, most people in America, most Jewish people will not know that the only president of the United States in history who can legitimately be described as insane has decided and announced that Chuck Schumer is not Jewish anymore. And we're told we have to select our outrage with Donald Trump. I understand that we can't be outraged at everything we're told. I guess that's true. But the problem with that approach is that too many reporters and too many members of the news media are learning not to be outraged by anything. And that is exactly what happened in the Oval Office today. Because when Donald Trump Finished saying, he's a Palestinian. And then he turned to the reporters saying, okay, meaning I'm ready to take another question. Not one of them said a word to him about what he just said about Chuck Schumer. That was one of the most disgraceful public moments in the history of the Oval Office, if not the most disgraceful, possibly outdone only by Donald Trump in other Oval Office moments. And not one White House reporter screamed at Donald Trump about that. Not one of them said a word to Donald Trump. Asked a single question to Donald Trump about when he became in charge of deciding who is Jewish. Remember how they used to scream at Joe Biden? Remember that sound? That wasn't there today after Donald Trump said, chuck Schumer's not Jewish anymore, you know what they'll tell you? They'll say, well, he didn't mean it. White House reporters will tell you that. They'll say, he didn't mean it. When someone doesn't mean what they're saying, there's supposed to be something in the delivery that makes that apparent, especially if it's a joke. For example, let's take a look. Let's take a look at Donald Trump saying this one more time. And when you look at this, see if you can find the slightest hint that he doesn't mean every word of this.

[Donald Trump]

Schumer is a Palestinian. As far as I'm concerned. You know, he's become a Palestinian. He used to be Jewish. He's not Jewish anymore. He's a Palestinian.

[Rachel Maddow]

And then he turns and says okay to the reporters. I guess it was okay with them. Donald Trump didn't say a single thing today with more seriousness than he said he's not Jewish anymore. And Donald Trump said that sitting beside Ireland's head of state in an annual visit around St Patrick's Day, which is Monday, to celebrate the Irish contribution to American life. The Irish head of state always comes to the White House around this time of year, around March 17th. Michael Martin is the leader of a country whose people take their Irish identity very seriously. Irish Americans have been known to take their Irish identity sometimes too seriously, like on St. Patrick's Day, when they can cause a traffic jam here and there. But saying Chuck Schumer isn't Jewish anymore is the neurological equivalent of saying Michael Martin, the head of the Irish government, sitting beside Donald Trump in the Oval Office, isn't Irish anymore. Go ahead, Donald. Turn to him and say that to him. Turn to him in the Oval Office and say to him, he's not Irish anymore. Because what you don't know. Donald Trump is that the Irish government has a much more sympathetic posture toward Palestinians than Chuck Schumer ever has. Much more. And you wouldn't dare Donald Trump to turn to Michael Martin and say, you're not Irish anymore, you're a Palestinian. Wouldn't dare. Donald Trump has a broken brain that leaks ugly poison every day and it cannot be fixed. It is getting worse. It is worse on day 52 of his presidency than it was on the first day of his presidency this time. And it will be worse on the hundredth day of his presidency. And it will be worse, much, much worse on the thousandth day of his presidency and on this, the 52nd day of his presidency. Today, Donald Trump, the weakling, backed down in a very big way. Once again, we've seen Donald Trump's childish and now predictably weak backing down on his ridiculous tariff game, his dangerously stupid tariff game that he's playing against Canada and Mexico and the world. But today, Donald Trump backed down on something that's even bigger to him, and it is much more important to his voters than tariffs. Which is why Donald Trump is using the tariff game and the madness it has created to distract from his biggest broken promise to his followers and his biggest failure so far, and that is mass deportation. There have been no mass deportations. None. And the breaking news of the night is the New York Times reporting ICE returns all migrants from Guantanamo to stateside facilities. That's right, all of them. And there were very few there. Remember the promises of the 30,000 people who were going to be scooped up in the United States and sent straight to Guantanamo? 30,000. He didn't even send 300. Not even 1/10 of 1% of what he said he was going to do. And now he's given up on Guantanamo and doesn't want you to know it. The New York Times reports as of Friday, according to a court filing this week, 290 migrants from 27 countries have since cycled through the base. As of Friday, the court filing said 17 migrants were being held in a medium security facility, a dormitory style building on the other side of the base from the wartime prison where 23 were in Camp 6. So that is a grand total of 40 as of last week. 40 people detained by Donald Trump at Guantanamo Bay as of Friday. And now there are none. Zero. The operation has so far cost $16 million, according to representatives of the Guantanamo migrant detention mission, who briefed a congressional delegation during a visit last week. It has a staff of 1,000 security forces and civilian contractors, many of them mobilized from military bases in the United States. In other words, many of them mobilized from military bases in the United States for no reason to go to Guantanamo and do nothing. A complete Trumpian waste of money. While his court jester, Elon Musk is trying to pretend that he's the one who's finding the waste in the federal government, immigration law specialists have questioned the legal basis for the operation, arguing that the act does not authorize the government to transfer people to the soil of another unrelated country without its consent. Nor, they said, does it provide authority to detain people outside the territorial United States, which appears to exclude Guantanamo. That is what Donald Trump is trying to hide. That's why he's illegally using federal property to try to sell Elon Musk's cars, which American buyers are turning away from, apparently because they don't want to be accused of driving what could be interpreted as the rolling version of a Nazi salute thanks to Elon Musk's disgraceful public antics. That's what that car has become in the minds of some. Antics that the president of General Motors doesn't do, idiotic antics that the president of Ford doesn't do, hateful posts on social media that the presidents of other automobile companies don't do. And because the people running General Motors and Ford don't publicly disgrace themselves every day, people can buy electric cars from General Motors and Ford without fear of the very car itself associating the driver with with any political position at all. Donald Trump wasn't asked a single question about Guantanamo Bay yesterday when he was trying to sell cars illegally on federal property in the White House driveway. Donald Trump wasn't asked a single question about Guantanamo Bay in the Oval Office today when he decided that Chuck Schumer isn't Jewish anymore. Donald Trump's so called border czar Tom Homan is busy trying to threaten mayors in places like Boston, which has the lowest crime rate of any major city, because Donald Trump knows Tom Homan has failed to round up and deport the millions of people that Donald Trump promised to throw out of this country right away. Under the Donald Trump presidency, inflation went up, the price of eggs went way, way, way up and are still going up. The stock market is going way down and tonight Guantanamo Bay is empty. Instead of being a harsh holding pen for the tens of thousands of criminals who Donald Trump has not found after INS be easy to find and round up and get rid of. And so far the only people Donald Trump has managed to get rid of are American citizens who work in America for the American government. And that's the way it is as of day 52. Coming up, representative Sarah Jacobs saw Donald Trump's failed mass deportation project in action at Guantanamo. She was there. She will join us next with what she reported to her colleagues about what she saw at Donald Trump's now empty deportation prison at Guantanamo Bay. That's next.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Now is the time, so we're gonna.

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Do it, providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?

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The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Sarah Jacobs]

We did a day trip to Guantanamo Bay to see how the immigrant population is being treated there. I think to me, one of the biggest things that I saw was that there is no operational reason for this, for using Guantanamo Bay for immigrant detention. That, you know, it's really expensive. They told me it cost about $16 million already. And at the time I was there, they told us that there were only 41 immigrants that they were holding. And at max right now they can have 225. So we saw service members guarding empty tents that aren't usable.

[Rachel Maddow]

Joining us now is Democratic Representative Sarah Jacobs of California. She's a member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee and the ranking member of the Subcommittee on Africa. She's also a member of the House Armed Services Committee. Congresswoman Jacobs, it Sounds like both those committees had jurisdiction over what you were doing down there at Guantanamo. And so let me just begin with, are you surprised by the breaking news report of the night? The breaking news headline in the New York Times. York Times saying that ICE returns all migrants from Guantanamo to stateside facilities?

[Sarah Jacobs]

I'll be honest, I am not surprised. It was clear to me when I was there that there is no actual reason to hold immigrants in Guantanamo Bay. It was done solely because Donald Trump liked the optics of being able to say that he sent immigrants to Guantanamo Bay. With its history of human rights abuses and everything, that that means it was clear that there was no actual workable plan to get to 30,000 beds, which is what he talked about. And it was so expensive and used so much of our military for such low capacity, to me, there was no reason for the cost or the cruelty of it.

[Rachel Maddow]

And when you were there, were there any representatives of Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency down there trying to decide how efficient that particular operation was or whether they should be firing anybody there?

[Sarah Jacobs]

Not to my knowledge, no.

[Rachel Maddow]

That's kind of what I thought. That was a joke question, of course. And so tell us what you did see, what you were able to determine. Were you allowed to speak to any of the people being held there?

[Sarah Jacobs]

So we weren't able to speak to any of the migrants, but we did see the living conditions of the high threat migrants who were in Camp 6, one of the facilities that had previously obviously been used for detainees from the War on Terror. We saw the conditions they were living in. We were able to see some of the, you know, access they had to phones and other things like that. We weren't able to see where the lower threat migrants were being held, but we did see the tents that DoD set up to the cost of about $3.1 million that had no ability to be used because they did not meet DHS standards. And you had, you had service members literally guarding these empty tents that couldn't be used. So it was very eye opening experience. And we were able to see where some of the higher threat migrants were being held.

[Rachel Maddow]

Did anyone document for you how it was determined that one of these people was any one of these people was so called high threat?

[Sarah Jacobs]

What they told us is that they were only accepting immigrants who had final deportation orders that had already gone through the legal process. And the higher threat migrants were folks who had been convicted of a felony or a serious misdemeanor. Now, we weren't able to talk to the migrants, so I wasn't able to corroborate any of that. But that's how they told us they were separating folks out.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah. And it was all just words. There was no documentation for any of those statements, right?

[Sarah Jacobs]

Not to my knowledge.

[Rachel Maddow]

Right. And so going forward, this pace that was supposed to be mass deportation, whatever it is, it is not mass. We have not reached a threshold of what we'd call mass deportation. And in fact, the Trump deportation schedule that we're on as of now is lower than some previous presidents. What are you expecting next? Did you pick up anything about their giving up on Guantanamo? That's over. What's their next move?

[Sarah Jacobs]

I represent San Diego, a border community, and so we see firsthand everything that happens on the border, no matter who the president is. And deportations are not new. They are something that has happened under every president. What is new is trying to use the military to do these deportations, trying to use military facilities to do this. They told us that they are trying to get to 100,000 beds for immigrant detention across the country. That would necessitate using military facilities, which is very dangerous for our military readiness. But they clearly did not have any real plan for any of this, and it's all been very haphazardly put together.

[Rachel Maddow]

I want to go to your jurisdiction at the House Foreign Affairs Committee for a moment for the US Agency for International Development. We had Dr. Atul Gawande on here last night who used to work there, talking about what it means for starving children in Sudan. And he and other experts have said from the start that what Elon Musk did in shutting that off and literally shutting off food that was on its way, literally on its way to the mouths of starving children, that people have died because of these decisions. Is there anything that can possibly be saved in what's going on at USAID at this point?

[Sarah Jacobs]

That's exactly right. People have died. You know, we have heard of food literally rotting in the warehouses that it's held in. And a reminder for everyone, this food is bought from US Farmers. So it's US Farmers who are going to be out the money when they don't get paid for further commodities that we give to these starving people. I've introduced a bill that says that it is currently illegal under law to dismantle usaid, that any reform of USAID should be consistent with law and policy. We actually use Secretary Rubio's own language against him in this and that no money can be used to dismantle USAID illegally. And if I'd introduced this bill in December, it would have had broad bipartisan support. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to get any Republicans to sign on yet. I know they have privately expressed their concerns to the administration. But to me, the time for those private conversations is done and it's time for them to sign on to my bill and to make sure that we're actually protecting the foreign assistance that they know is incredibly important reform. Yes, but what Elon Musk is doing, completely getting rid of it, is hurting people around the world, as you said, but it's also really hurting our national security and Americans who are no longer being protected from these diseases, from terrorism, from all these other things that USAID does.

[Rachel Maddow]

Representative Sarah Jacobs, thank you very much for reporting from Guantanamo for us and for joining us tonight.

[Sarah Jacobs]

Thanks for having me.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you. Coming up, Vladimir Putin's apparent response to Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky agreeing to the terms of a cease fire was to launch a deadly attack on President Zelensky's hometown last night. Yale history professor Timothy Snyder joins us next.

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[Timothy Snyder]

Do you think now that he, he's.

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Rachel Maddow]

After Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky agreed to the terms of a 30 day ceasefire yesterday. Vladimir Putin attacked President Zelensky's hometown last night, leaving one person dead and injuring 14 others. Today in the Oval Office, Donald Trump said this.

[Donald Trump]

We had a great success yesterday. We have a full cease fire when it, if it kicks in. We have to see. It's up to Russia now, but we've had a good relationship with both parties actually, and we'll see.

[Rachel Maddow]

Joining us now is Timothy Snyder, professor of history at Yale University. He is the author of the New York Times best sellers On Freedom and On Tyranny. Professor Snyder, we just heard yet another tone from Donald Trump in the Oval Office today about the situation, but in the end saying, in effect, well, it's just all up to Vladimir Putin.

[Timothy Snyder]

Yeah. Where we are right now is that the Ukrainians have agreed to an unconditional ceasefire, the only condition being that Russia agrees as well. And so now we're at a critical point. What Russia will very likely try to do is to say, what do we get for this ceasefire? And demand, in effect, that they get all the things that they wish they would have had if they'd won this war. Like controlling who's going to be the next Ukrainian president, controlling Ukrainian domestic politics, deciding what the Ukrainian constitution says, deciding what Ukraine foreign policy is going to be, and so on. And so, in effect, Russia is going to try to turn a ceasefire into a big Barbara targeting chip. They're going to attach huge conditions, whereas the Ukrainians have not done this. And so then thinking down to the next step, once Russia does this, which is very likely, what does the United States then do? The only way forward would be for the United States then to apply pressure to Russia to try to get Russia to take the same position the Ukrainians have already taken. And the open question is whether the United States under this administration, is capable of doing that.

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, I mean, how open is that question? Is there any evidence at all that Donald Trump is capable of doing that? Isn't all the evidence the opposite of that?

[Timothy Snyder]

Yes, all of the evidence thus far is the opposite of that. Donald Trump has a decade long history of agreeing with Vladimir Putin. He speaks generally the same geopolitical language as Vladimir Putin. Thus far, the Americans, whether it's Donald Trump or his Cabinet Senate, have tended to concede over the heads of the Ukrainians very important points which they really have no right to concede, like borders, alliances and so on and so forth. So there is no evidence thus far the scenario that nice conservatives have is the optimistic one. And that is a scenario that Donald Trump will feel that Putin is now betraying him and that he has to show strength. That is what they are hoping for. That is where their chips are. I would be very happy if they were right.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah. And of course, it's very hard for me to conceive of Donald Trump ever, ever stopping feeling grateful for Vladimir Putin helping him win the presidency in 2016 and then helping him win it again, this time by all the Russian disinformation pumped into Twitter and pumped into our political, political system.

[Timothy Snyder]

That is all true. And I've been working and thinking about those things for a long time. As you know, all that, you're putting me into the position of making the opposite argument. So I'll do my best. And all I could say would be something like this, that the way things are now set up, the Ukrainians have done everything they could be reasonably asked to do. And it is very clear If Russia now says, we're going to put conditions on this, that they are defying directly and personally the President of the United States in a way which will be unmistakable for everyone in the world. That's the leverage. That's all that's there.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah. And that's why my initial impression of President Zelensky kind of instantly agreeing to the ceasefire was that that was a brilliant tactic because he was. Either way, he could be betting that Putin won't, and therefore, that puts Trump. Exactly. You said it puts him. So was it your sense, what was your sense strategically, about President Zelensky's agreement to the 30 days?

[Timothy Snyder]

Yeah, I mean, the bottom line, of course, just to remind folks, is that this is a war that Ukraine never wanted. This is a war that Russia wanted. All Ukraine wants is for the Russians to leave their country and stop shooting missiles and stop bombing, whereas the Russians have these much more extraordinarily ambitious goals to change the whole structure of Ukrainian society, to make Ukraine some kind of colonial puppet, to exploit Ukraine in every possible way. That's a very fundamental difference. And so that means when you get to this point in negotiations, the position of the Ukrainians can be much simpler. It can be, okay, let's stop. Let's stop fighting, and let's use that as a beginning of some kind of real negotiation. Whereas the Russians are, in a way, trapped by their own really extraordinarily ambitious or crazily ambitious ideas that they should control everything that happens in Ukraine. And so what the Ukrainians have essentially done is forced everyone to take a step away from unreality, the unreality of what Russia wants, the unreality of how Mr. Trump thinks about Russia towards reality, which is that Ukraine, in fact, does want peace. And Russia thus far has only shown that it wants more. That reality has been made plain. And I agree with you. That shows a very deft diplomacy on the part of the Ukrainians. And to be fair, I think it also reveals some diplomatic skill on the part of the Americans who are present in those discussions. Yes.

[Rachel Maddow]

To be able to put Humpty Dumpty back together in some sense. Since the Oval Office, we're going to squeeze in a quick commercial break here. I'd like to continue with this, and when we come back, I'm going to invite you, and you don't have to if you don't want, but I know with your expertise, I'm interested in what you might. What reaction you might have to Donald Trump saying to the descendant of Holocaust survivors today that he is not Jewish. Anymore. We'll be right back with Professor Timothy Snyder. Let's take one more look at what Donald Trump said about Chuck Schumer today.

[Donald Trump]

Schumer is a Palestinian. As far as I'm concerned. You know, he's become a Palestinian. He used to be Jewish. He's not Jewish anymore. He's a Palestinian.

[Rachel Maddow]

Professor Timothy Snyder is back with us. And Professor, I know you have studied the Holocaust deeply, and I've just been wondering, what did you hear in that?

[Timothy Snyder]

I'm sorry, I'm going to say five words in German. That was the mayor of Vienna, Carl Lueger. I decide who's a Jew. Carl Lueger was one of the pioneers of modern anti Semitism. He formed the political climate in which Adolf Hitler was raised and educated as a young man in Vienna. That is, of course, what I thought of, and I'm sure many other historians thought of that, that as well. It is a primal and basic act of the anti Semite to say that he, a non Jew, has the power to decide who is Jewish and, and who is not. That he has the power to say who has suffered from anti Semitism and who is not suffering from anti Semitism.

[Rachel Maddow]

And, and Chuck Schumer is. I mean, there's so much to say about it. You know, this, this Brooklyn boy grew up in Brooklyn all his life and in a, in a, a wonderfully warm Jewish family with loving parents. And he is the descendant of people who were executed in the Nazi death camps by that spirit that lives in that German quote that you just gave us.

[Timothy Snyder]

Yeah, this is the terrible thing. I mean, the overall trajectory of this is transforming antisemitism from being a very real force, the oppression of Jews, structures of beliefs about Jews which lead to discrimination, marginalization, repression and death. Taking that very real thing and turning it into a political slogan which you use to justify the things that you want to do anyway, like, for example, attack universities or suppress freedom of speech or suppress freedom of oppression. And in doing that, you're not only carrying out the evil of suppressing freedoms in the U.S. you're also making anti Semitism as a word, meaningless, which of course, in the end is terrible for the Jews and is itself an anti Semitic action. That's what's going on.

[Rachel Maddow]

And while he was at it there, he's using Palestinian as a slur.

[Timothy Snyder]

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And one can ask, where does it go when you say that the role of the Jew is to be hostile to the Palestinian and when you say so directly that the role of the Palestinian is to be hostile to the Jew. Where does it go when you deliberately deport a Palestinian who you know has committed no crimes? Is that meant to be good for the Jews? These things don't make sense. If you, if at all, if what you're, if your claim is that you're fighting antisemitism, these are things which foment discrimination and end up generating much more anti Semitism. And I'm afraid, given the overall climate, given that we have Mr. Musk in the White House, a man who carries out a Hitler salute, given that we have J.D. vance in the White House, a man who goes to Germany and encourages the far right, given that we have Jack Posobiek accompanying or being invited to accompany the secretary of Defense, These are people who have spread anti Semitic slurs. Given that this is what's happening in the White House, I think that's the basic framework from which we have to begin. And this has to be taken really seriously. The fact that the White House is using anti Semitism as a slogan doesn't mean that they care about it. It could mean very well, could mean, on the contrary, that they want to make it meaningless because they're trying to do things which will end up hurting Jews.

[Rachel Maddow]

Professor Timothy Snyder, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Always appreciate it.

[Timothy Snyder]

Thank you.

[Rachel Maddow]

And we will be right back with a very special last word tonight night. If you're one of the thousands and thousands of lucky ones, you've sampled the food and conversation at K and K Soul Food in Atlanta, which Atlanta Mayor Andre Dickens described has called a beloved institution in our city. One of our producers on this program, Carlton Smith, grew up in K and K Soul Food, a family business built by his great aunt Martha Mahone and her sister, brother and mother. And that experience growing up in K and K Soul Food from the time he was literally crawling on the floor to today makes Carlton my invaluable one man focus group on Georgia politics. His great union, Martha Mahone, known in the community as Toby, passed away last month at the age of 86. The Atlanta City Council issued a proclamation saying the Atlanta City Council proudly recognizes her invaluable contributions to Atlanta's history, culture and culinary heritage. Her obituary said, a loving sister, aunt, great aunt, cousin and good friend, she will be remembered for her sense of humor, unique spoken honesty and being a fierce protector of anyone she loved. All of us here at the Last Word know that her spirit lives on in her great nephew, our dear friend and colleague, Carlton Smith.

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