Lawrence: Republican senators say ‘hell no’ to Musk and Trump

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Lawrence: Republican Senators Say ‘Hell No’ to Musk and Trump" The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell aired on November 22, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves into the tumultuous political landscape surrounding former President Donald Trump's recent cabinet nominations. The focus centers on the rejection of Elon Musk's proposals and Trump's nomination of Matt Gaetz for Attorney General by key Republican senators. The episode features insightful discussions with Senator Elect Adam Schiff, attorney Joel Leppard, Congressman Steve Cohen, and Congressman Maxwell Frost, offering a comprehensive analysis of the current political dynamics and their implications for the future.

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Trump’s Nomination of Matt Gaetz and Republican Senators’ Rejection

The episode opens with O'Donnell addressing the controversial nomination of Matt Gaetz for Attorney General by former President Donald Trump. Despite Gaetz being a close ally of Trump, significant pushback emerged from within the Republican party.

Lawrence O'Donnell [05:36]: "I know enough people that were a hell no in the conference to know that the path would have been very, very difficult."

O'Donnell explains that prominent Republican senators, including Mitch McConnell, Lisa Murkowski, and Susan Collins, collectively rejected both Elon Musk and Trump’s influence, signaling a critical shift within the party.

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Elon Musk's Lobbying Efforts and Senate's Rejection

Elon Musk's attempts to influence Senate decisions through lobbying were a significant focus. Musk's proposal to cut $2 trillion from the federal budget and his appointment as Director of the Department of Government Efficiency—which lacks legislative backing—were major points of contention.

Lawrence O'Donnell [05:37]: "Elon Musk will be the best positioned lobbyist in Washington, while the rest of us will have to just write letters to our members of Congress."

O'Donnell highlights Musk's repeated failures to secure support from key senators, emphasizing the diminishing influence of high-profile figures over Senate proceedings.

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Interview with Senator Elect Adam Schiff

Senator Elect Adam Schiff of California joins the discussion, providing his perspective on the unprecedented confirmation process under Trump’s administration.

Adam Schiff [23:23]: "Matt Gaetz has set a very different standard for his nominations than any I think we've seen in history."

Schiff criticizes the selection of nominees who are perceived as personal allies rather than qualified professionals, expressing concerns about the potential misuse of the Justice Department as Trump’s personal shield and weapon against adversaries.

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Interview with Attorney Joel Leppard on Matt Gaetz's Nomination

Attorney Joel Leppard discusses the downfall of Matt Gaetz's confirmation efforts, attributing Gaetz's collapse to credible testimonies from his clients.

Joel Leppard [29:57]: "Your mission in representing these women was to save them."

Leppard underscores the significant impact of the testimonies from women alleging misconduct against Gaetz, which played a pivotal role in derailing the nomination process.

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Discussion with Congressman Steve Cohen on the Ethics Committee

Congressman Steve Cohen of Tennessee provides insights into the House Ethics Committee's handling of allegations against Matt Gaetz and the broader implications for future nominations.

Steve Cohen [40:11]: "He could come back on January 3rd and say, take the oath and then he'd be a member of Congress, in which case the Ethics Committee should continue and complete the report."

Cohen emphasizes the necessity of releasing the Ethics Committee report to maintain transparency and accountability, irrespective of Gaetz’s congressional status.

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Interview with Congressman Maxwell Frost on Ethics Committee Report

Congressman Maxwell Frost, the co-chair of the Democratic Policy and Communications Committee, discusses the importance of releasing the Ethics Committee report on Matt Gaetz and strategies for Democrats in the upcoming Congress.

Maxwell Frost [44:24]: "The timing of his resignation is all connected to the fact that he wanted to evade this report coming out."

Frost advocates for the public release of the report to inform voters and uphold ethical standards within the government. He also outlines Democratic strategies to leverage their positions in a narrowly divided House to counteract Republican agendas.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with O'Donnell reiterating the significance of Republican senators' unified rejection of Trump's and Musk's nominations. This collective stance not only disrupts Trump's influence within the Senate but also signals potential resistance against future extreme proposals. The discussions with Schiff, Leppard, Cohen, and Frost collectively underscore the evolving political dynamics and the ongoing battle for the integrity of governmental institutions.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Lawrence O'Donnell [05:36]: "I know enough people that were a hell no in the conference to know that the path would have been very, very difficult."

• Lawrence O'Donnell [05:37]: "Elon Musk will be the best positioned lobbyist in Washington, while the rest of us will have to just write letters to our members of Congress."

• Adam Schiff [23:23]: "Matt Gaetz has set a very different standard for his nominations than any I think we've seen in history."

• Joel Leppard [29:57]: "Your mission in representing these women was to save them."

• Steve Cohen [40:11]: "He could come back on January 3rd and say, take the oath and then he'd be a member of Congress, in which case the Ethics Committee should continue and complete the report."

• Maxwell Frost [44:24]: "The timing of his resignation is all connected to the fact that he wanted to evade this report coming out."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing listeners and non-listeners alike with a clear understanding of the critical issues addressed.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

To the People.

[Alex Wagner]

When work gets crazy, I like to stop by the bar after, have a few cold ones. I don't drink at all until 4:00. We limit ourselves to one bottle of wine a night. Excessive drinking has a way of sneaking up on us. A few drinks, a few nights a week, it can add up and suddenly we're at greater risk for long term problems like heart disease, cancer and depression. Reason enough to rethink the Drink [e-mail] an OHA initiative.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Now it is time for the Last.

[Alex Wagner]

Word with the great Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence. Good evening, Alex. And imagine Adam Schiff's excitement at going into the United States Senate from the House of Representatives just in time to vote on the strangest set of cabinet nominations in history. We're going to find out how he feels about that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

This is his first interview since he won that Senate seat. Is that right?

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. Yes. And I know you know that because I know Chris Hayes happened to mention that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Listen, I'm here to promote your show, too.

[Alex Wagner]

No, it's a fan.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's a daisy chain of love from the 8 to the 9 to the.

[Alex Wagner]

10 to the 11.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It just cycles through the whole day.

[Adam Schiff]

It's a whole family.

[Alex Wagner]

Alex, I just have to figure out how to promote your show when I come after you. You know what? I'm not sure how to do that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Don't ask Chris Hayes how to.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay, Okay.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I saw that Playbook yourself.

[Alex Wagner]

I saw that. It was my favorite moment of the night so far. This is one.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

This one's a close second. You're going to have a great show.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm excited for it. Thanks, Alex. Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Have a good show.

[Alex Wagner]

Thank you. Well, the breaking news of the night is that Donald Trump has made his second selection for Attorney General of the United States. Former Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi, who was one of Donald Trump's defense lawyers in his first Senate impeachment trial. Viewers of this program, of course, have known for days now that Matt Gaetz was not going to be the next Attorney general. The only suspense being how long would the Gates drama continue? Yesterday, most TV news programs showed you video of Donald Trump giving a clear one word answer to the question, are you reconsidering the Gates domination? Donald Trump's clear one word answer to that, seen all over TV news except here, was no. The reason I did not bother to show you that video was that I knew that that was a lie. Of course he was reconsidering the Gates nomination. And he must also be reconsidering any and all advice he gets from Elon Musk, who now has three strikes against him. Donald Trump has given Elon Musk the title of Director of the Department of Government Efficiency. There is no Department of Government Efficiency and such a department could only be created by an act of Congress. Departments are the essential organizing structures of the executive branch of government. The Department of Agriculture, the Department of Defense, the Department of State and the Department of Treasury were the very first two departments created by the first Congress. Donald Trump can use whatever words he wants to describe Elon Musk's job because it is a fake job. As I have previously reported on this program, the only power Elon Musk will have is the same power we all have, which is the power to lobby the Congress and the President to agree to spending cuts. Elon Musk's claim that he is going to cut $2 trillion from the budget. He's not going to cut anything. He will never have the power to cut anything. And the United States Senate. The power to institute real budget cuts belongs to the Senate Finance Committee, which has jurisdiction over the biggest pieces of the budget, Social Security and Medicare, along with Medicaid and other programs. And the other Senate committee with authority over the rest of the budget is the Appropriations Committee. Elon Musk has not yet attempted to lobby the Senate Appropriations Committee to legislate spending cuts that he recommends. But he has already struck out with powerful members of the Appropriations Committee who he would have to convince to carry out his spending cuts. NBC News is reporting, quote, at least five Senate Republicans Senators Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, Susan Collins of Maine, Mark Wayne Mullen of Oklahoma and Senator elect John Curtis of Utah were a no on Gates and had communicated to other senators and those close to Trump that they were unlikely to be swayed. The three senior most senators there are members of the Senate Appropriations Committee, Mitch McConnell, Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins. Susan Collins will be the chair of the Appropriations Committee next year. Elon Musk lobbied them and lobbied them hard to vote for Matt Gaetz, the richest person in the world who spends all day every day with Donald Trump lobbied those Republican senators to vote for Matt Gaetz for Attorney General. And they said hell no. They said hell no to Elon Musk. And they weren't the only ones.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I know enough people that were a.

[Alex Wagner]

Hell no in the conference to know that the path would have been very, very difficult. Elon Musk will be the best positioned lobbyist in Washington, while the rest of us will have to just write letters to our members of Congress. Elon Musk can get any Republican member of Congress on the phone in a second and tell them what he wants them to do. And he can publicly issue his lobbying orders to Congress as he has done repeatedly to the United States Senate since he became Donald Trump's constant companion. And the Senate has ignored Elon Musk. Each time. Elon Musk publicly urged Republican Senators to vote for Rick Scott as the Republican Senate Majority Leader, that vote was taken in secret among Republican Senators and Elon Musk's candidate came in third. That was strike one. Then Elon Musk lobbied Donald Trump to choose Howard Lutnick for Secretary of the Treasury. And again, Elon Musk went public with his lobbying, urging Donald Trump to to choose Howard Lutnick for Treasury. And Donald Trump instead chose Howard Lutnick for Secretary of Commerce, which ranks far below treasury in the hierarchy of the Cabinet. So Elon Musk failed in his attempt to lobby his new best friend in politics, Donald Trump, on who should be Secretary of the Treasury. That was strike two. The choice of Matt Gaetz for Attorney General was made by the three people in Trump world most disconnected from reality. Elon Musk, Matt Gates and Donald Trump. They hatched a plan on Donald Trump's plane. And Donald Trump immediately and intemperately announced Matt Gaetz for Attorney General with Elon Musk's full support. Then Elon Musk went to work lobbying the United States Senate publicly to confirm Matt Gaetz. He just needed to convince 50 of next year's 53 Republican senators to vote for Matt Gaetz. And here's how we lobbied those Senate Republicans. Matt Gaetz has three critical assets that are needed for the AG role. A big brain, a spine of steel and an axe to grind. He is the Judge Dredd. America needs to clean up a corrupt system and put powerful bad actors in prison. Gaetz will be our hammer of justice, I promise you. 82 year old Mitch McConnell doesn't know who Judge Dredd is. Then Elon Musk evaluated the growing then sex scandal around the Gates nomination, saying, as for these accusations against him, I consider them worth less than nothing. Under our laws, a man is considered innocent until proven guilty. If AG Garland could have secured a conviction against Gates, he would have, but he knew he could not. Case closed. Elon Musk thought the case was closed. Elon Musk told Republican senators the case was closed. And Republican senators said hell no to Elon Musk and to Donald Trump at the same time. Elon Musk struck out with Republican senators. And his striking out with Republican senators may be the most important longer term story to emerge from the Gates nomination. Elon Musk tested his strength as a lobbyist with the Republican Senate, and he lost very badly. He lost three times in a row. Three of the hell no votes against Elon Musk. Against Elon Musk, Matt Gates and Donald Trump. Against all of them are the senior members of the Senate Appropriations Committee, the committee Elon Musk is going to have to beg to vote for the spending cuts that he proposes. Susan Collins is going to be the chair of that committee. She said hell no to both Elon Musk and Donald Trump today. Lisa Murskowski, senior member of that committee, said hell no to both Elon Musk and Donald Trump today. And Mitch McConnell, unburdened by his position in leadership, now may become the Mitch McConnell of the 1990s in that Senate, when he was chairman of the Senate Ethics Committee and he investigated the powerful Republican chairman of the Senate Finance Committee at the time on sexual harassment charges. And Mitch McConnell led the Senate Ethics Committee to recommend the expulsion of that Republican senator. No one in the Senate was surprised in those days when Mitch McConnell did that, because Mitch McConnell was regarded then as an honorable senator who would approach the work of the Ethics Committee with integrity, and he did. And because I had watched the way Mitch McConnell ran that Senate Ethics Committee. When I was working in the Senate, I had high hopes for Mitch McConnell. When Donald Trump became president, I had high hopes that Mitch McConnell would be the one to say hell no to Donald Trump during the first Trump presidency. But Mitch McConnell made another choice in order to hold on to his position in leadership. And I was very wrong about having high hopes about him. But now, now Mitch McConnell is just the senior senator from Kentucky with no leadership burdens at all. Mitch McConnell's probably never going to run for reelection again. His seat is up in 2026. And so for the next two years, in his position on the Senate Appropriations Committee, Mitch McConnell will be in a position to say hell no to Elon Musk's proposals for cutting the federal budget. And Elon Musk has to be very, very careful with Mitch McConnell, because Mitch McConnell does cling to One point of power in the Appropriations Committee. Mitch McConnell will be the chairman of the subcommittee on defense spending. Mitch McConnell will have a lot to say about the funding that benefits defense contractor Elon Musk. And so, yes, an absurdly unqualified nominee for Attorney General has been crushed by Republican senators. That's who crushed that nomination. But more importantly for the way we will be governed in the next four years, Mitch McConnell finally found his hell no voice. Mitch McConnell might never stand in Donald Trump's way again. This might be a one time event, but the fact that he did say no when Donald Trump had gone into personal lobbying mode, calling senators, asking them for their vote is an indication, and only an indication, that there could be real resistance among Republicans in the United States Senate to Donald Trump's most inappropriate ideas. If Mitch McConnell knows he's not going to run for reelection, that makes him even stronger in his ability to say hell no to Donald Trump. Remember all that video that was all over cable news yesterday of Matt Gaetz walking the halls of the Senate with Senator J.D. vance, who was suddenly supposed to be a powerful Senate player? Remember the confidence they both exuded as they walked past the reporters? It was all nonsense. It was the hopeless loser parade and everyone in the Senate knew it. And what was J.D. vance doing today? Exactly the same thing with the other Trump nominee drowning in what is now the most prominent sex scandal of the Trump transition. What happened in room 528? That is the subject of a Monterey Police Department report released in response to a public records request by reporter Joshua Kopecz of KSW News in California. The 15 page police report describes an unnamed woman's memory of what she says was the rape she suffered in Pete Hegseth's Hyatt hotel room in Monterey, California in October 2017. She was one of the women in attendance at an event, a gathering of Republican women in that hotel where Fox Weekend host Pete Hegseth was the keynote speaker. The woman identified in the police report is identified only as Jane Doe and she is seen. Police saw her on hotel surveillance video with Pete Hegseth. That's on hotel surveillance video. The police report indicates she, quote, believes that something may have been slipped into her drink. As she cannot remember most of the night's events. She ended up in Pete Hegseth's hotel room, room 528. She told the police she remembers Pete Hegseth on top of her with his shirt off and his dog tags hanging from his neck down into her face. When the Monterey police got Pete Hegseth on the phone 10 days later. He admitted that the woman identified as Jane Doe was in room 528 with him. And he admitted that he had sex with her. He was even asked to describe the positions. And Pete Hegseth's descriptions of the positions confer that his dog tags would have been hanging in her face. Pete Hegseth insisted to the police that the sex that happened in that room was completely consensual. Hotel personnel who were interviewed by the police described an incident near the hotel pool that night where Pete Hegseth was being loud and disorderly. The hotel security told the police that when they approached Pete Hegseth being overly loud at the pool at 1:30am Quote, Hegseth began to curse. Hegseth told Blank that he had freedom of speech. Jane Doe intervened and told Blank that they were Republicans and apologized for Hegseth's action. Blank stated Jane Doe placed her hand and arm on the back of Hegseth and escorted him toward building 4 and 5. Blank stated he watched Hegseth and Jane Doe disappeared into the era of Building 5. Blank stated Hegseth was very intoxicated. Blank stated Jane Doe was not intoxicated. Intoxicated, was standing on her own and was very coherent. Other witnesses told the Monterey police that Pete Hegseth seemed to be on a campaign to get some woman, any woman, to come back to his hotel room that night. A witness described Pete Hegsett's approach to another woman earlier in the evening. During the conversation, Blank stated Hegseth placed his hand on Blank's knee. Blank made it clear that his hand on her knee was not acceptable. Despite the touching, Blank stated she was not uncomfortable. Blank stated Hegseth had invited her back to his hotel room. Blank stated she politely declined the invitation. The police report says this about the police interview of Pete Hegseth. Hegseth stated he was buzzed but not intoxicated. Hegseth did not know who was leading him from the bar. Hegseth described the person's clothing, the person wore blank. Hegseth described Jane Doe's dress. Hegseth did not remember being chastised for being too loud and did not remember an argument by the pool. Hegseth did not remember being belligerent with anyone. So that's Pete Hegseth who claims he was Buzz but not intoxicated, contradicting the hotel security who told the police that pig Hegseth was very drunk and very noisy. There were no hotel witnesses who contradicted anything that Jane Doe said. Hegseth's Statement to the police confirms some details in Jane Doe. The unnamed woman's statement. Hegseth told police that she, quote, asked Hegseth if he had a condom. Jane Doe had already told police exactly that. More than a week before the Hegseth police interview. Hegseth confirmed Jane Doe's memory that he was wearing dog tags. And Hegseth's statement confirmed the precise and graphic detail of the way he reached a climax. Hegseth statement in the police report ends this. Hegseth gave her something to clean up, and Jane Doe later got dressed. Jane Doe's version of that moment in her statement to the police was Hegseth threw a towel at her and asked her, are you? Hegseth's lawyer, Tim Pollatori, issued a statement today dismissing the entire incident and saying, quote, this police report confirms what I've said all along, that the incident was fully investigated and police found the allegation to be false, which is why no charges were filed. That is not true. The police report does not find the allegations to be false. The last line of the police report is, I recommend this case be forwarded to the Monterey County District Attorney's office for review. That lie will be told every day by some Republicans supporting Pete Hegseth's nomination for Secretary of Defense. You will be lied to every day by at least one Republican who will tell you that the police report found the allegations to be false. That is a lie. Pete Hegseth married his first wife in 2004. Pete Hegseth transitioned from his first marriage to his second marriage by starting an affair during his first marriage. During his second marriage, Pete Hegseth had an affair with someone working at Fox who got pregnant during that affair and had a baby. Pete Hegseth's second wife filed for divorce in September of 2017 upon discovering that her husband's girlfriend working at Fox had a baby a month earlier. So Pete Hegseth has a baby with his girlfriend that he met working at Fox in August 2017. His wife files for divorce in September of 2017, and he's in room 528 in October of 2017 with his dog tags, as the police report put it, hovering over her face two years later. Pete Hegseth married the girlfriend who had the baby two months before the alleged rape. And at some point in the next year, Pete Hegseth paid Jane Doe, the woman who accuses him of rape, a financial settlement of some kind to avoid a possible lawsuit from her. Pete Hegseth's lawyer told the New York Times that He paid the woman to try to keep the matter secret because, quote, he feared he might lose his job as a Fox News anchor if the allegation became public. And he's right. He would lose his job as a Fox anchor over those allegations. Fox was run from its founding by the sexual predator Roger Ailes, whose biggest star, Bill O'Reilly, was finally dismissed because of his behavior as a sexual predator at work. That cost the network millions upon millions of dollars. So, yeah, accusations like that would get you fired now as a weekend host from Fox, because now, now Fox has higher standards and Fox has higher standards than Donald Trump. You can sexually abuse anyone you want, and Donald Trump is more likely to see that as a qualification than as a reason not to hire you. Donald Trump, the self confessed sexual assaulter on the Access Hollywood video, wants the world to believe there's no such thing as sexual assault. There's no such thing as rape. That's why Donald Trump chose Matt Gaetz for Attorney general. He wanted the affirmation of the United States Senate in the confirmation process to, in effect, say, the women are all lying. Matt Gaetz did nothing wrong. Now Donald Trump is asking Republicans in the United States Senate to vote in favor of everything Pete Hegseth did in room 528 while he was still married to wife number two and having the affair with the woman who'd become wife number three. The question now is, will four Republican senators. That's all it takes, four Republican senators. Will four Republican senators say hell no to Pete Hegseth and Donald Trump? Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Senator elect Adam Schiff of California. He's a former chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, served on the January 6 committee. He was also the lead impeachment manager for the first impeachment trial of Donald Trump. Senator Elect, Shift, it really is an honor to have you here in your first interview since the election. You're going into what is now the strangest confirmation process we have seen and even much stranger than the first confirmation process Donald Trump put us through on his first cabinet.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That is certainly true. And it brings to mind, Lawrence, what some people were saying before the election, that not having to run for reelection, he'll be a different kind of president than in his first term, that he'll be concerned about his legacy now. Well, Donald Trump has assured anyone who might have believed those claims not true. If he is going to be changed in the second term, it means that he's going to be more extreme in the second term. And these nominees certainly bear that out. Whether it Was Matt Gaetz or now Pam Bondi or Tulsi Gabbard? RFK Pete Hegseth. He has set a very different standard for his nominations than any I think we've seen in history. And yes, it's going to be an interesting confirmation process for all of these nominees. They're going to have to face a lot of tough questions, including ones about alleged rape or sexual assault, including about fondness for foreign despots like Bashar al Assad, who gasses his own people, questions about their failure to accept science and their conspiratorial thinking. So it's going to be, I think, a different kind of confirmation hearing process than we've seen before.

[Alex Wagner]

I assume you don't know yet what committee assignments you might have in the United States Senate.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I don't. You've had some initial discussions about committees I would like to serve on, but a lot will depend on what the ratios are on the committees, who else is interested in the same committees. So I really don't know yet.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. And so we don't know which of these confirmation hearings you might be participating in. That will depend on what committees you are actually a member of. But every senator gets a vote on the floor in every one of these nominations that makes it through the committee. So you're going to have to examine every one of them as a first order of business as a senator, and this will be the first time you're participating in the confirmation process. It seems to me that there's something more at stake than these individual confirmations. It seems to me that Donald Trump is trying to degrade the entire process of confirmation and what it means. And he's trying to say, in effect, there's no such thing as qualifications.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I think that's right. I think he has chosen people like Matt Gaetz that he knows are unqualified, even worse than unqualified, affirmatively should be disqualified from consideration. Both to dare the Senate to stand up to him, to see whether if he could roll them on someone like Matt Gaetz, can he roll them on anything to show essentially his dominance over the Senate. And I'm encouraged that with respect to the most extreme of his nominees, Matt Gaetz, that there were sufficient number of Republican senators to say no, that's going too far. Now, whether that pattern will recur or whether that was, you know, the last demonstration of independence, we'll find out soon enough. But these are choices that are designed to tear down the institutions, that are designed to be disruptive, but not disruptive in a good way. Just Disruptive of the whole government enterprise. And the other motive here by the president is he wants loyalists that will defend him and go after his adversaries. I'm obviously particularly interested in the Justice Department because I came out of the Justice Department and, you know, we dodged a bullet certainly with Matt Gaetz. But nevertheless, he has chosen for the very top positions now, including the nominee of Bondi, people that are basically his personal attorneys, his criminal attorneys, his impeachment attorney. He views the Justice Department not as a department representing the American people or the public interest, but as a department representing Donald Trump, his criminal liability, his civil liability, to be his shield and also to be his sword and go after his enemies. That's not what the department is for. And we'll find out through the confirmation process whether that is going to be what the department becomes.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. No previous president had ever had a criminal defense lawyer before becoming president. And here's Donald Trump. The top three people that he wants at the Justice Department, the attorney general was a defense lawyer for him in an impeachment trial in the Senate. And then the number two and number three were his criminal defense lawyers in Manhattan who won him 34 guilty verdicts.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yes. And as well, Pam Bondi was one of the election deniers out there very early on in Pennsylvania making claims of fake ballots. So if she is going to be the attorney general, what does that mean in terms of how Donald Trump and the Justice Department treat all of those people convicted of assaulting police officers on January 6? Is she going to continue as attorney general pushing out the big lie? These are questions that she's going to have to answer during her confirmation hearings. But you're right, those that have been loyal to him, those that have been willing to essentially present his false defenses and his fake claims have been now elevated to the top ranks. Or if he has his way, will be elevated the top ranks of our justice system.

[Alex Wagner]

California Senator elect Adam Schiff. Very eager to discover which confirmation hearings you will be participating in. A real honor to have you join us tonight.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you.

[Alex Wagner]

Thank you. Coming up, our next guest, attorney Joel Leppard, crushed any hope that Matt Gaetz could survive the confirmation process when he came on this program and others and described the testimony the House Ethics Committee heard from his clients. Two young women who Matt Gaetz paid for sex, one of whom was an eyewitness to Matt Gaetz having sex with a 17 year old girl in Florida, where the age of consent is 18. That is the information that crushed Matt Gaetz. Joe Leppard, the attorney who made that information public. Joins us next.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Adam Schiff]

Given the allegations that are out there.

[Alex Wagner]

Have been reported on, would you vote for him today? No, I would not vote for him today. And I have been clear. If I had to vote on what we know today, I would not. Joining us now is Joel Leopard. He's the attorney representing two women who testified to the House Ethics Committee in the Matt Gaetz investigation. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. So you have succeeded because I Know, your mission in representing these women was to save them. What would have been the nightmare of having to testify to the Senate Judiciary Committee, which they might have had to if that House Ethics Committee report didn't make it to the Senate. But now the whole nomination has collapsed, which is an alternative outcome that benefits your clients. And just to be clear, as you said, the first time you were in this program, your interest was not in the nomination, and what happened to the nomination, your interest was what happened to your clients and saving them from testifying to the Judiciary Committee in the Senate.

[Adam Schiff]

That's right, Laurence. My clients are incredibly relieved today in our little group chat. There's just such an expression of gratitude that they're able to move on with their lives and that they wouldn't have to be forced to testify before the Senate.

[Alex Wagner]

Now there's still this open issue of what happens to the House Ethics Committee report. There's going to be a push from Democrats to make that public. Republicans, we can already see, are pushing to keep it locked up forever. Do your clients have an interest in that report becoming public?

[Adam Schiff]

Certainly they are open to the report being released. They've put a lot of effort and time, and they've put everything out there on the line. The country has called and requested that they testify under oath, truthfully about what happened, and that's what they did. And certainly they're open to the report being released so that everything they've gone through is not for nothing.

[Alex Wagner]

Would you want their names to be redacted in that report?

[Adam Schiff]

Well, see, that's the thing, Lawrence, is that the House has assured us that their names would be redacted, everything about them, all personal information would be redacted. And they've actually been really great with us so far. And I'm positive that. That if the report was released, that no one would who they are, apart from those that already know, which is basically the press.

[Alex Wagner]

When you basically mounted this public campaign to get the word out about what is really in this report, the report couldn't be released. But you're not in any way bound by the House rules of the Ethics Committee. Of the members not discussing it, you were completely empowered to discuss it. And when we heard Senator Cramer there just saying, based on what he knows now, he would vote no. What he knows he knows because of the way you opened up this report.

[Adam Schiff]

Yeah, and actually, the House asked us, they said you're allowed to speak if you choose to, but they requested that we didn't do so. You know, our position has always been that we will not speak publicly unless required to do so. And at this point, when the House report was not released, at that point, we felt we had to speak up, and that's the reason why we did. And fortunately, we were successful.

[Alex Wagner]

How much? When your clients were testifying to the House Ethics Committee, they don't live in Washington, D.C. there were expenses involved. How was that handled?

[Adam Schiff]

You know, the House did offer to fly my clients out and pay for their hotels and get a free trip to D.C. essentially as they do for any witnesses. But my clients couldn't take off work. So it was done via zoom over lunch break or, you know, from work, from home day. Don't tell anyone. But it was that kind of thing where they really couldn't take time off. And it was a big deal to them. I mean, they are paycheck to paycheck, just like most Americans.

[Alex Wagner]

So. So the. There hasn't been a financial cost to them in this process, or has there been?

[Adam Schiff]

I mean, they've had to pay for lawyers throughout the process prior to my engagement. They've had to pay some known travel expenses. It's, you know, they've actually paid for a lot of their own counseling once the FBI counseling was done. So. And there's a cost and an emotional toll that's taken place. So it's been a big part of their lives, and they are really grateful that this part is hopefully over and that they can move on.

[Alex Wagner]

What was your observation in the committee because you were present for their testimony, what was your observation of the way the committee handled this evidence and the collection of this evidence?

[Adam Schiff]

They were real professional throughout the entire process. All the staff lawyers at the House were very sensitive to my clients. And I couldn't have asked for a better House committee, really.

[Alex Wagner]

You know, when the ethics committees that have even membership in both bodies, you know, equal number when they're working their best, you can't tell in a hearing, in a meeting like that which ones are Democrats and which ones are Republicans. Is that the way this worked?

[Adam Schiff]

They were staff lawyers, and I had no idea if anyone was Republican or Democrat if that was the case. It's my understanding that it's not the case. They're just staff members. But if they were, honestly, I wouldn't know.

[Alex Wagner]

But the staff members themselves are working for individual Republicans and Democrats, and they very much are Democrat and Republican. And what you're saying is you couldn't tell?

[Adam Schiff]

I have no idea.

[Alex Wagner]

That's the best way for it to work. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it.

[Adam Schiff]

Thanks.

[Alex Wagner]

And coming up, what happens next when the House Ethics Committee meets again on December 5, will there be at least one Republican who's willing to vote to make that report public? That's all it would take is one Republican to join the Democrats Former House Ethics Committee member Congressman Steve Cohen will join our discussion next.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Pete Hegseth]

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[Alex Wagner]

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[Alex Wagner]

If you could hear love, what would it sound like? Son, can we talk Talk about your drinking? Yeah, Dad, I think we should helping.

[Pete Hegseth]

Those closest to you think about their excessive drinking.

[Alex Wagner]

Maybe that's what love sounds like. [e-mail] an OHA initiative. Here's what the chairman of the House Ethics Committee said after Donald Trump withdrew the name of Matt Gaetz for Attorney General.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I think that this should end the discussion of whether or not the Ethics Committee should continue to move forward in this matter. He has withdrawn his nomination. He is no longer a member of Congress, and so I think that this.

[Alex Wagner]

Settles any involvement that the Ethics Committee.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Should have in any matters involving Mr. Gates.

[Alex Wagner]

Joining us now is Congressman Steve Cohen, a Democrat of Tennessee. He's a former member of the House Ethics Committee and a current member of the House Judiciary. Congressman Cohen, what is your reaction to that?

[Steve Cohen]

Well, we don't know what Matt Gaetz will do. We don't. We finally learned what he did, but we didn't know it while he did it. But we don't know what he'll do. And he could come back to the Congress. He resigned and he said something about resigning from all future congressional elections, but it's not clear if one can resign when they haven't been sworn in. And this is something that I think the chairman of the Ethics Committee knows. So he could come back on January 3rd and say, take the oath and then he'd be a member of Congress, in which case the Ethics Committee should continue and complete the report. I think what they might not have had in the final report was the punishment that would have been appropriate and they would have to come up with that. And I think that may be why Gates doesn't come back, but I think he could. So there's no reason to dismiss it. I think they need to keep it there because this man is very, very unpredictable.

[Alex Wagner]

Let's listen to what Congressman Glenn Ivey, a member, current member of the Ethics Committee, said. I think it contains information that the public should have, especially if he does decide to pursue additional office, whether it's the congressional seat, a Senate seat, a.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Gubernatorial seat, a different kind of appointment.

[Alex Wagner]

To the Trump administration. I think the public should see that information, and I know in some other prior occasions, the fact that, well, you know, the potentially material that could be relevant to larger debates about how we pursue cases, whether it's at the Ethics Committee level, the Department of Justice, there might be some light to shed on that, too. I can't go into details there, but that's another consideration. Congressman, there are thousands of jobs that Donald Trump could appoint Matt Gaetz to that do not require Senate confirmation.

[Steve Cohen]

Yeah. And I think I agree with Glenn that he could get appointed position in the Trump administration, and I think he probably will. And that could be such a job that it would be important for the public to know about this report, particularly the things, as I've discussed on the show in the past, not necessarily related to the sex, but to potential bribery or misuse of his office and use of funds, improper. Those would be relevant to pointing to a position in the administration.

[Alex Wagner]

Carson. Steve Cohen, thank you very much. For joining us tonight and guiding us through Ethics Committee process. Really appreciate it.

[Steve Cohen]

You're very welcome. You know, November 22, 1963. Think of John Kennedy tomorrow.

[Alex Wagner]

Yes, that's tomorrow. Yes. Thank you very much, Congressman. Thank you.

[Steve Cohen]

You're welcome. Good to be with you.

[Alex Wagner]

Coming up, Congressman Maxwell Frost made history as the youngest member of Congress. Now he's making history again. Congressman Maxwell Frost will join us next. He entered the House of Representatives as the youngest member of Congress, and now he is the youngest member of House leadership. Joining us now is Florida Congressman Maxwell Frost, who is the new co chair of the Democratic Policy and Communications Committee. He's also a member of the House Oversight Committee. And I guess I have to call you Mr. Chairman now.

[Maxwell Frost]

Well, thank you so much. I think it would be co chair officially. We have such a great group, you know, our main chair on the committee is Representative Debbie Dingell, but also Lori Trahan and Lauren Underwood. We had our first meeting a few days ago, and I'm just really excited to be part of the team to figure out how we move forward.

[Alex Wagner]

I just want to ask you one question about the Gates Report that the Ethics Committee has. People have talked about it should be released in case he gets appointed to some other government job. But what about the fact that the American people paid for this work? And what about the Ethics Committee releasing this work to show what a good job they did investigating this? And importantly, as a warning, as a warning to people out there about this man, as a warning to women, as a warning to the women of Florida, where he's from?

[Maxwell Frost]

Yeah, I 100% agree with what you're saying. And here's the thing, like, we have to look at the facts. Number one, the timing of his resignation is all connected to the fact that he wanted to evade this report coming out. The second thing is the report is finished. There was already a vote scheduled to release the report to the House. And so look, we're not in a situation where we were in the middle of a report or an investigation just started, and he let them. There's no jurisdiction anymore. The report is finished. And he used the resignation to evade the report. No one should be able to do that in the House of Representatives. And so I do think it needs to come out for many different reasons. But top of which, like you mentioned, this is something that taxpayers have paid for, is finished and I think should be made available.

[Alex Wagner]

You're heading into another Congress in a, what we would call in the Congress, a strong minority position, in the sense that the majority just has a very, very slight margin over the minority here. And what are the strategies the Democrats might have for using the leverage that they have in the House?

[Maxwell Frost]

Yeah, and I think it's really important to know that, right. The last two years, even though we've been the minority, we've really been governing all the mass must pass legislation has been passed with more Democratic votes than Republican votes because of all the division on their side. And even though we did suffer massive losses across the country, obviously we lost the presidency. House Democrats actually slimmed the Republican majority going into this next Congress. And so they're in an even worse position. And guess what? It's not just Democrats slimming their majority. Donald Trump is also slimming their majority because he keeps appointing people to his cabinet that are House Republicans. They really have no one to spare. We still have, I think, one or two races that are yet to be called. And so there's a few things. Number one, obviously looking for cracks in their coalition, which we saw a lot over the last two years as part of the reason, you know, even though Hakeem Jeffries wasn't the actual speaker of the House, he kind of was because we were really driving a lot of this must pass big legislation. And so we'll see where the cracks in their coalition are. I mean, we have to hope that there'll be some sensible people who want to fight back and against this really extreme agenda on the Republican side. I don't have a ton of hope on that. And on the times where we can't work with folks, we're going to hold the line for the things we believe in.

[Alex Wagner]

Carson Maxwell Frost, the co chair of the Democratic Policy and Communications Committee. Mr. Co Chairman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Maxwell Frost]

Thanks for having me.

[Alex Wagner]

We'll be right back. Maxwell Frost gets tonight's last word.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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