Lawrence: Retreating on tariffs 'economically illiterate clown' Trump admits he's too weak to do his job

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Retreating on Tariffs 'Economically Illiterate Clown' Trump Admits He's Too Weak to Do His Job"

Title: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell, MSNBC
Release Date: May 9, 2025

In this riveting episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves deep into the tumultuous political landscape surrounding former President Donald Trump's recent retreats on tariffs and his waning influence within the Republican party. The episode also explores the election of America’s first pope, Pope Leo XIV, and concludes with an analysis of the philanthropic endeavors of billionaires Bill Gates and Elon Musk.

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1. Donald Trump's Retreat on Tariffs and Senate Confirmations

The episode opens with a critical examination of Donald Trump's recent political maneuvers, highlighting his inability to secure Senate confirmations and his faltering trade policies.

Key Discussions:

• Withdrawal of U.S. Attorney Nomination:
  Donald Trump found himself unable to secure the necessary 50 votes from Republican senators plus the vice president to confirm his nominee for U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia. In a candid admission, Trump stated,

  Donald Trump [03:19]: "I can only lift that little phone so many times in a day."

  This statement was criticized by O'Donnell as the "stupidest explanation a President has ever given for being unable to achieve a Senate confirmation."

• Temporary Appointment of Jeanine Pirro:
  Facing confirmation hurdles, Trump appointed Fox News host Jeanine Pirro as the acting U.S. Attorney, a position limited to 120 days without Senate approval. O'Donnell mocked this choice, suggesting Pirro would be ineffective in the role, especially in contrast to her public statements.

• Trade War Retreat:
  The Wall Street Journal and Nobel laureate Paul Krugman were cited discussing Trump's retreat from his aggressive tariffs, particularly with the United Kingdom. Trump's focus on protecting Rolls Royce imports was portrayed as misguided and detrimental to American automakers. O'Donnell highlighted that this move undermined the U.S. automotive industry's competitiveness.

  Notable Quote:

  Paul Krugman [played through transcript]: "This will be smoke and mirrors, an attempt to persuade the gullible that Trump's tariffs are actually working."

• Market and Legal Repercussions:
  Trump's unilateral tariff adjustments led to legal challenges, with lawsuits claiming his actions were unconstitutional. The stock market reacted positively to Trump's retreats, reflecting investor confidence in his ability to negotiate lower tariffs.

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2. Critique of Trump’s Cabinet and Leadership Weakness

O'Donnell didn't shy away from criticizing Trump's cabinet members, portraying them as ineffectual and excessively loyal to the president.

Key Discussions:

• Howard Lutnick's Remarks:
  Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick was heavily criticized for his unprofessional and inappropriate response to Trump's derogatory comments about Senator Chuck Schumer. When Trump called Schumer a "Palestinian," Lutnick responded with laughter and applause, actions that O'Donnell condemned as lacking decency.

  Notable Quote:

  Donald Trump [18:33]: "They have Trump derangement syndrome. Senator Schumer has become a Palestinian."

  O'Donnell dubbed Lutnick as the "most pathetic and buffoon court jester in the history of the American presidential Cabinet," questioning his loyalty and competence.

• Assertion of Cabinet's Loyalty:
  The discussion emphasized that Trump's cabinet members have effectively taken an oath to support him unwaveringly, making no moves to invoke the 25th Amendment despite his apparent weaknesses and erratic behavior.

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3. Election of America’s First Pope: Pope Leo XIV

A significant portion of the episode was dedicated to the historic election of Pope Leo XIV, the first American to assume the papacy.

Key Discussions:

• Background of Pope Leo XIV:
  Born in Chicago in 1955 and a graduate of Villanova University, Leo XIV is the first American and the first Augustinian friar to become pope. His heritage includes partial descent from Creole people of color, adding to his unique identity within the Catholic Church.

• Sister Simone Campbell's Insights:
  Sister Simone, an esteemed Catholic advocate, lauded Pope Leo XIV's commitment to social justice, aligning him with the legacies of Pope Francis and Pope Leo XIII.

  Notable Quote:

  Sister Simone Campbell [40:49]: "I think it's a refreshing, engaging opportunity that we have at this moment in the church. It's exciting."

• Pope's Stance on Social Issues:
  Pope Leo XIV has a history of advocating for marginalized communities, migrants, and has publicly criticized policies he finds unjust, including those of Donald Trump and J.D. Vance.

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4. Tale of Two Billionaires: Bill Gates vs. Elon Musk

Concluding the episode, O'Donnell juxtaposed the philanthropic efforts of Bill Gates with the controversial actions of Elon Musk.

Key Discussions:

• Bill Gates' Philanthropy:
  Celebrating the 25th anniversary of the Gates Foundation, Gates has committed to accelerating his charitable contributions, aiming to deplete his wealth within the next 20 years to fund initiatives that could save millions of lives.

  Notable Quote:

  Bill Gates [played through transcript]: "There are too many urgent problems to solve."

• Elon Musk's Actions:
  In stark contrast, Musk was criticized for dismantling the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) and his detrimental policies affecting global hunger and healthcare. O'Donnell accused Musk of instigating a humanitarian crisis, particularly in Sudan and Africa.

  Notable Quote:

  Bill Gates [played through transcript]: "The picture of the world's richest man killing the world's poorest children is not a pretty one."

• Political Implications:
  The segment tied Musk's actions back to Trump's administration, suggesting that policies enacted under Trump's leadership empowered Musk to make decisions detrimental to global humanitarian efforts without congressional oversight.

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5. Analysis by Professor Timothy Snyder

Throughout the episode, Professor Timothy Snyder of Yale University provided expert analysis on the discussed topics, especially focusing on Trump's declining political influence and international trade policies.

Key Insights:

• Trump's Negotiation Style:
  Snyder criticized Trump's reactive and submissive approach in negotiations, contrasting it with traditional negotiation tactics that emphasize initial pressure and clear objectives.

  Notable Quote:

  Professor Snyder [25:00]: "They have to apply the sanctions now. They have to change the situation now."

• Ukrainian Ceasefire Dynamics:
  Snyder highlighted Ukraine's proactive stance in seeking a genuine ceasefire, juxtaposed with Russia's inability to honor such agreements, emphasizing the need for American support in arming Ukraine to shift the war's trajectory.

  Notable Quote:

  Professor Snyder [27:13]: "Ukrainians have done literally every single thing that they can do... The Americans have to help them by either putting them in a position to defend themselves when the war pushed the Russians back."

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Conclusion

Lawrence O'Donnell's episode provided a comprehensive critique of Donald Trump's current political ineffectiveness, the questionable loyalty within his cabinet, the hopeful emergence of Pope Leo XIV, and the contrasting philanthropic paths of Bill Gates and Elon Musk. With expert insights from Professor Timothy Snyder and heartfelt commentary from Sister Simone Campbell, the episode offered listeners a nuanced understanding of the prevailing political and social dynamics shaping the United States and the broader international community.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.

[Jen Psaki]

All the stories that we're covering are.

[Timothy Snyder]

Live and happening as we speak.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Watch your favorite shows live.

[Timothy Snyder]

What's happening right now is a hostile takeover of the US Government.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app Sir David Frost gave us an intimate look at some of the most compelling personalities of our time.

[Jen Psaki]

What makes people tick fascinates me. You can't fake interest. You can't fake curiosity.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

MSNBC Films presents a six part documentary series David Frost versus On the next episode, Jane Fonda.

[Jen Psaki]

The war is being escalated in the.

[Howard Lutnick]

Most tragic, cruel way.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Sunday at 9:00pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Timothy Snyder]

It's time for the Last Word with Lawrence O' Donnell. Hey, Lawrence.

[Jen Psaki]

Hey, Jen. Could you say that one more time just so I can take a sip of water before my.

[Timothy Snyder]

Oh, sure. Do you want me to. I'm very capable of just continuing to talk, as you know. So if that's needed, I'm always here for you.

[Jen Psaki]

That's all I needed. We, we have Timothy Snyder joining us tonight now that Donald Trump and J.D. vance for the first time seem to be willing to almost say that it's possible Vladimir Putin hasn't been telling them the truth. So that's a big turn for them. That's a turn later in the hour. Jan, I don't know if you noticed this today at the Vatican, but when the new pope emerged today, he was flanked by the leadership of the church and there was not a single woman up there, as usual, as has been the case for quite a long time. And so we're gonna hear from Sister Simone tonight about her perspective on this new pope. And there's really interesting news breaking about him tonight. Every hour we're learning more and more about him, including really interestingly, his roots in New Orleans. This is becoming a more fascinating story by the hour.

[Timothy Snyder]

It's so fascinating, I feel like I need to watch Conclave. I'm not the only one. It sounds like there was reporting that some of the bishops were watching Conclave. So I can't wait to see your reporting and to hear what sisters from. Yes, there were no women. I noticed that as well. Think everyone did.

[Jen Psaki]

There will be in our discussion of the new Pope, that's for sure.

[Timothy Snyder]

Love to hear that.

[Jen Psaki]

Thanks, Jen.

[Timothy Snyder]

Have a great show.

[Jen Psaki]

Thank you. Well, today Donald Trump retreated and surrendered twice, once in his trade war and once again in the United States Senate. We reported on this program last night that Donald Trump's increasing political weakness had made it impossible for him to get enough votes in the Senate to confirm his choice to be the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia. And today, Donald Trump surrendered and withdrew his choice for confirmation to that position. And while he was at it, Donald Trump admitted, in effect, that he's just too old and too weak to do his job.

[Donald Trump]

I can only lift that little phone so many times in a day.

[Jen Psaki]

That's how Donald Trump explained his inability to get the 50 votes he needs from Republican senators plus the vice president to achieve that Senate confirmation. And you know, he only had to make one phone call to get that nomination through the Senate. That would be a phone call to Republican Senator Thom Tillis on the Senate Judiciary Committee, who publicly came out and defied Donald Trump, as we reported to you here last night, because Donald Trump is now so politically weak among Republicans in the United States Senate. Thom Tillis said, no, publicly, I will not vote for Donald Trump's choice. And today, Donald Trump just publicly and meekly surrendered to Tom Tillis, to that one Republican Senator who stood in his way with Donald Trump, saying, I can only lift that little phone so many times in a day. The single stupidest explanation a President has ever given for being unable to achieve a Senate confirmation. Today, Joe Biden appeared on the View for a full hour taking all questions and was always smart, sometimes wise, and always made perfect sense for the full hour, the way you would expect a President to do. Joe Biden was dignified for the full hour. Joe Biden was indeed presidential for the full hour. Imagine, if you will, Joe Biden in his presidency explaining his failure to win a vote in Congress by saying, I can only lift that little phone so many times in a day. Imagine the screaming from the White House press corps if Joe Biden had ever said anything like that. By the end of the day, Donald Trump had come up with a truly preposterous temporary appointment to that same position where he cannot win a Senate confirmation. He actually chose fox host 73 year old Jeanine Pirro to serve as the acting U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, where she will be allowed to serve as an Acting U.S. attorney for 120 days maximum and cannot serve one day longer without being confirmed by the Senate, which would never happen in her case. Here's just a sample of the thinking of Donald Trump's temporary substitute for U.S. attorney, Acting U.S. attorney in the District of Columbia.

[Howard Lutnick]

I want Joe Biden to issue a Travel alert to the world. None of you are coming here anymore. We're done with everybody. There is a cleansing needed in our FBI and Department of Justice. It needs to be cleansed of individuals who should not just be fired, but who need to be taken out in handcuffs.

[Jen Psaki]

Jeanine Pirro, you can safely assume, will not take a single person out of the FBI headquarters or Justice Department in handcuffs. During her temporary tenure, Donald Trump's other big retreat was on the world stage today. The Wall Street Journal describes it in this head Trump stages a trade war retreat. The Wall Street Journal said Republicans want to pretend this retreat is genius at work. Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman writes, this will be smoke and mirrors, an attempt to persuade the gullible that Trump's tariffs are actually working. We can be sure of one it won't lead to any significant opening of the British market to US Goods. Why? Because that market was already wide open before Trump stomped in. The most important thing to understand about Trump's trade war is that it's an attempt to solve a problem that only exists in his imagination. Trump's tariffs are a huge, destructive attempt to fix something that wasn't broken. Unlike China, the United Kingdom is one of those countries that actually buys more from the United States than the United States buys from the United Kingdom. That's who Donald Trump announced some kind of agreement with today. Donald Trump tried to stress today how important it is to get a trade agreement with such a big trading partner as the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom was once the biggest economy in the world, but that was a very long time ago. And now the United Kingdom is a smaller economy than California. And so Donald Trump has agreed not to impose his illegal tariff of 25% on British cars imported into the United States. And you will not be surprised to know that the only actual British carmaker that Donald Trump repeatedly mentioned when discussing British cars today was the kind that he used to ride around New York City in Rolls Royce. Of the 14 million cars sold in the United States in a year, Rolls Royce accounts for 1,765. It is the most insignificant imported product into the United States that you could possibly think of. But that car dominated Donald Trump's thinking today.

[Donald Trump]

I mean, unless somebody shows me that there's another kind of a car that's comparable to a Rolls Royce, and there aren't too many, this is a good commercial for Rolls Royce. They're going to order a lot of.

[Jen Psaki]

Mr. President, I wonder whether you'd like to buy.

[Donald Trump]

I mean, well, the last time this.

[Jen Psaki]

Happened, I would be happy to suggest a discount, obviously a very modest discount. We have a spectacular.

[Donald Trump]

I've had many of them, actually.

[Jen Psaki]

That's right, he said many of them. The gaudiest New York vulgarian of our lifetimes used to ride around New York City in a Rolls Royce before he decided as a politician that no one should ever buy a foreign car. As usual, Donald Trump demonstrated in his announcement of a return to almost normal trading status with the United Kingdom that he has no idea what he's talking about. Or better put, he has no idea what he's asked about. Listen to Donald Trump's answer about non market barriers to trade and see if there's the slightest hint that he knows what that means.

[J.D. Vance]

On the non market barriers. How did you get the UK to bend and what was the 11th hour deal or ask?

[Donald Trump]

Well, I think it was really just a part of the overall. I mean, they have so many things that are so good for them, it's going to be so good for the country. And that was sort of easy. It wasn't. We had non market, I call it non market or non monetary trade barriers. And we had quite a few of them. Not nearly as bad as some countries. Some countries have. You know, they have virtually no tariff, but the rest of it is so brutal you can't do business with them.

[Jen Psaki]

Right.

[Donald Trump]

So it's a very important question, actually. No, I think the overall, the overall deal just worked out very well from their standpoint. They, they were willing to give that in order to get other things and you might want to speak to them, Mr. Ambassador.

[Jen Psaki]

That's right. When you have no idea what the question is about, you turn to the British ambassador and you say you might want to speak to that. Mr. Ambassador, Donald Trump just said there's quite a few of them, but he never said what they are. He never identified even one. So Donald Trump spent the day trying to protect Rolls Royce and he did protect the market for Rolls Royce in the United States. The American automobile industry, though, is disturbed that Donald Trump is more concerned with his friends in the United States being able to buy Rolls Royces at their usual price instead of the survival of American automobile manufacturers. Today, the big three U.S. automakers issued a statement saying they are disappointed. Quote, the US Automotive industry is highly integrated with Canada and Mexico. The same is not true for the United States and United Kingdom. We are disappointed that the administration prioritized the UK ahead of our North American partners. Under this deal. It will now be cheaper to import a UK vehicle with very little US Content. Than a USMCA compliant vehicle from Mexico or Canada that is half American parts. This hurts American automakers, suppliers and autoworkers. We hope this preferential access for UK Vehicles over North American ones does not set a precedent for future negotiations with Asian and European competitors. And there you have it. British cars imported to the United States as of today have been given a huge advantage over American made cars by Donald Trump's unilateral manipulation of his own illegal tariffs. Donald Trump said that what was announced in the Oval Office today is a trade deal that is a lie. There is no trade deal with the United Kingdom because of what happened in the Oval Office today. It is simply a rogue president violating American law on tariffs, declaring that he is going to violate that law in a different direction when it comes to the United Kingdom and only the United Kingdom. There are a number of solid lawsuits out there in federal courts tonight claiming harm from Donald Trump's tariffs to American importers and arguing to the courts that Donald Trump's tariffs are illegal and unconstitutional. And the United Kingdom knows this. They know that nothing will be written into American law that they have discussed with Trump negotiators. They also know that federal courts could completely throw out everything that Donald Trump's team has agreed to because they do not have the legal authority to agree to it. Only Congress could make what Donald Trump is talking about the actual trade law of the United States. And nothing agreed to by the White House on international trade can ever become law, can ever be written into law without the approval of Congress. The stock market very much approved of Donald Trump's retreat today. The market was up and will probably be able to stay up on the now well earned belief and expectation that Donald Trump will continue to surrender in so called trade negotiations and continue to dramatically reduce or eliminate the illegal tariffs he has been threatening to impose. Donald Trump has gotten no concessions from China since launching his trade war against China. Zero. And the New York Post is reporting tonight that Donald Trump is already planning to drop his illegal tariff against China from 145% to 50% next week when Trump administration officials will be meeting with Chinese officials in Switzerland. The Chinese officials reading that information in the American press about Donald Trump already caving to them before they've even arrived in Switzerland and said a word is no doubt very encouraging to the Chinese negotiating team. Donald Trump is rightly seen as the confused, economically illiterate clown at the center of his own trade war who has become the most unpopular president in the first hundred days of his presidency in the history of Presidential polling in the Atlantic, Michael Shulman writes about what that will mean in the next week's talks in Switzerland with China, quote, trump's negotiating position will be the weaker one. Already in recent months, US Policy has appeared to vacillate, its strategy and goals uncertain. While Chinese leader Xi Jinping has held fast, presented an image of strength, and kept his larger geopolitical goals in focus, China has taken the opportunity of Trump's chaos, of the chaos of Trump's trade policy, to draw other countries, including American allies, closer to itself. The longer this standoff has persisted, the more Trump has signaled that he's the one who badly needs a trade deal. Just days ahead of talks with China, Trump's goals remain unclear. Beijing's far more consistent position has been that China will not bow to American pressure and that Washington must act to resolve the crisis it started. Trump's tariffs have given Xi an opportunity to portray himself as the more responsible and reliable statesman. And that is the easiest thing any head of state has ever tried to do, portray himself as more responsible and reliable than Donald Trump. The people standing around Donald Trump in the Oval Office today, with the exception of the British ambassador to the United States, have all made a commitment, an oath of of sorts, to publicly lie for Donald Trump about international trade and, in J.D. vance's case, about anything and everything. They have all implicitly taken an oath to never use one of their powers as members of the cabinet, and that is invoke the 25th Amendment along with the Vice president, to remove the president from office and install the vice President as acting president. Due to the President's inability to serve, Donald Trump chose a Cabinet that really is 25th amendment proof. They would never dare to even consider using the 25th Amendment against Donald Trump, no matter what he does. And they demonstrate their fealty to Donald Trump in the most perverse ways in the history of presidential cabinets. The rodeo clown of the Trump cabinet, Howard Lutnick, who has no experience in government and apparently no experience in decency, debased himself once again today, this time not with the stupidest words ever spoken by a Commerce Secretary about tariffs. He does that every day. This time it was with a goofy guffaw, bending over, laughing and clapping. When Donald Trump, in a Trumpian ramble, reeking of dementia, called the first and only Jewish leader of the United States Senate a Palestinian. The Jewish Secretary of Commerce decided he's the one who should laugh the very loudest at that, Howard Lutnick decided he should have the biggest reaction to that. Bigger, even than J.D. vance's smile. Howard Lutnick decided calling Chuck Schumer a Palestinian is something that he wants to declare to the world. Is bend over laughing and clapping funny?

[Donald Trump]

They have Trump derangement syndrome. Senator Schumer has become a Palestinian.

[Cardinal Robert Prevost]

Welcome.

[Donald Trump]

I don't know when they're going to give him the ceremony, whatever the ceremony may be. It's terrible what's happened to the Democrats.

[Jen Psaki]

Why? Why is Howard Lutnick laughing? Most of the people standing behind Donald Trump didn't laugh. Donald Trump has said it before. Donald Trump has been attacked for saying it before. Chuck Schumer correctly was outraged by Donald Trump calling him a Palestinian several weeks ago. It certainly wasn't the shock of the new that Howard Lutnick was spontaneously laughing at. Howard Lutnick is from Long Island. Howard Lutnick has no doubt over the course of his life heard a lot of nasty jokes directed at Jewish people that he doesn't like. It may be that Howard Lutnick thinks that anytime a line includes the word Palestinian that that is somehow funny. I don't know. I don't know what he thinks because it is inexplicable that a person would laugh at that statement. No one in that room today praised Donald Trump more than Howard Lutnick. Why?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Why?

[Jen Psaki]

That's what Howard Lutnick thinks he has to do. He thinks he's in a competition with everyone else in the cabinet in praising Donald Trump. And he is the most pathetic and buffoo court jester in the history of the American presidential Cabinet. Howard Glutnik will go about his business doing public interviews in friendly venues, and he will never be asked, why did you laugh at that? He will be allowed to lie about tariffs everywhere he goes on television to his friendly interviewers, and he will never be asked, why did you laugh at Donald Trump saying Senator Schumer has become a Palestinian? We don't have any questions for Donald Trump about a moment like that because we know the man's brain is broken and full of poison and always has been. He is a hateful hunk of stupidity and bigotry sitting in that chair. The question for Howard Lutnick is, what is wrong with you? The question for Howard Lutnick is, have you no decency? Yale University history professor Timothy Snyder will join us next.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime anywhere.

[Jen Psaki]

All the stories that we're covering are.

[Timothy Snyder]

Live and happening as we speak.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Watch your favorite shows live.

[Timothy Snyder]

What's happening right now is a hostile takeover of the US Government.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app Citizens, since.

[Mayor]

We each upgraded to Xfinity in our homes, the WI Fi has been booming. It's fair to say our town has officially become a boom town.

[Timothy Snyder]

Mayor, will I be able to drop into multiplayer gaming battles with low lag?

[Mayor]

The lag won't be an issue, but your questionable skills may be.

[Jen Psaki]

And what if I have hundreds of devices on the Wi Fi? Purely hypothetical.

[Mayor]

Seems like a lot, but sure, hundreds of devices all booming together with the Xfinity Gateway. Yes, friends and neighbors, with Xfinity, the WI Fi is booming.

[Timothy Snyder]

Restrictions apply.

[Jen Psaki]

Today, Vladimir Putin welcomed China's President Xi to Moscow as the main guest for what Russia calls Victory Day, a celebration of victory in World War II. The New York Times reports Mr. Putin described Moscow's close ties with Beijing as a stabilizing factor in the international arena. Despite what he called a difficult geopolitical situation. Vladimir Putin promised that Victory Day would bring a three day ceasefire in Ukraine. Ukraine says the ceasefire lasted only hours. Reuters reports Ukraine's foreign minister said on Thursday Russia had repeatedly violated its own three day cease fire hours after it began and called the initiative a farce. After speaking with Ukrainian President Zelensky by phone this afternoon, Donald Trump posted the US calls for ideally a 30 day unconditional ceasefire. Hopefully an acceptable ceasefire will be observed and both countries will be held accountable for respecting the sanctity of these directions negotiations. If the cease fire is not respected, the US and its partners will impose further sanctions. President Zelensky then immediately agreed to a 30 day cease fire. In a social media post and on Fox this afternoon, JD Vance said this.

[J.D. Vance]

What would bother me is if we conclude that the Russians are not engaging in the negotiation in good faith and if that happens, yeah, we're going to walk away. The President's going to say we're out of this thing. Russia can't expect to be given territory that they have even conquered yet. And that's one of the things that they put down in that initial peace plan.

[Jen Psaki]

Joining us now is Timothy Snyder, professor of history at Yale University. He's the author of the New York Times best sellers on Freedom and on Tyranny. Professor Snyder, I'm happy to say encouraging sounding statements today from Donald Trump and J.D. vance.

[Professor]

Well, it's to the credit of the Ukrainians who keep consistently saying we will accept a 30 day ceasefire. We are ready for this and that makes the reality event dawn that the Russians are the ones who keep talking about a ceasefire but not believing it. I'd like to think this is good news, although I would hope that the President and the vice president could go beyond saying, we'll walk away, which isn't much leverage, and say specifically, we're going to exert pressure on Russia now to get them to the table.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. They seem to be just patiently waiting. You know, Vladimir, what are you going to say when anyone else in this situation would be presenting Russia with the encouragement to come to the table and the prices you will pay rather specifically if you don't?

[Professor]

Yeah. It's quite ironic given that Donald Trump's own explicit negotiating philosophy is that you overwhelm the person with pressure right at the beginning and force them to react. They've done the opposite. They've made concession after concession to the Russians and thereby they've taught the Russians that time is on their side. So for this all to work, the Americans are going to have to do something quite dramatic. And they can't say, look, if the Russians don't do something, we'll eventually do something. They have to apply the sanctions now. They have to change the situation now.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. It's so striking when you compare it to, say, China, where he begins with 145% tariff. That's how he begins the discussion. And here he begins with patient waiting.

[Professor]

Yeah, it's really quite strange because it's just politics 101. Russia's the aggressor. Russia says over and over again it wants the war. If you want to get Russia to do something else, you have to change the overall structure of the situation. You can't wait for their permission to do it. You have to act yourself. And you think this would be, as you say, Trump's strength, but it hasn't been. He's been passive.

[Jen Psaki]

I just want to read exactly what President Zelensky said today, because he's handling this so well. He said Ukraine is ready for a full cease fire starting right now, from this very moment. A 30 day silence. But it must be real. No missile or drone strikes, no hundreds of assaults on the front. The Russians must respond appropriately by supporting the ceasefire. They must prove their willingness to end the war. I mean, that is just perfectly phrased to put it right on Russia So that even J.D. vance and Donald Trump can see it. And one wonders whether it seems President Zelensky really has figured out the code in dealing with these people.

[Professor]

He's done everything pretty much as well as it could be done. The ball isn't just in Russia's court. Right. The ball has been resting there the entire time. Right. And what Zelenskyy has done is make it very simple for the Americans. Very simple. We are doing the thing, exactly the thing that you asked us to do. Please look at the other side, which is the aggressor, which is continuing the war, which is committing the war crime crimes and so on.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. And so what Zelenskyy's established is, in effect, I'm going to show you, by agreeing with you, everything I'm going to agree right away. I'm going to make the precious earth deal with you. I'm going to make these, deal with you on our resources. I'm going to do all of that. And you're going to see Vladimir Putin's going to do absolutely nothing. He'll never come in your direction. Yeah.

[Professor]

Ukrainians have done literally every single thing that they can do, but they can't bring this across the line by themselves. The Americans have to help them by either putting them in a position to defend themselves when the war pushed the Russians back. The key story here is that in about a week, American military supplies to Ukraine will run out. If we want this war to change in the right direction, we have to arm them, which is not being talked about at all.

[Jen Psaki]

One thing Donald Trump does when he talks about this war is he always exaggerates the number of casualties that are occurring everywhere. He's always. He's got this number, 5,000. I don't think there's been a week when 5,000 people have been killed in this war, certainly not 5,000 soldiers. Why is he doing that? Why is he exaggerating the death count? What does that do for him? And the way he sees this, I.

[Professor]

Think it does two things. The first is that it allows him to both sides of the issue. So he always says countless soldiers are being killed on both sides, as though this were some kind of generic tragedy as opposed to a war that the Russians started and are continuing. I think the other thing that he does with this is that he tries to create the impression that it's unclear why anybody would be fighting. Right. And it is clear why the Ukrainians are fighting. If they don't fight, they still get killed.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. And so as we go forward, is it possible that Vladimir Putin now is, in effect, the person who's doing the most damage to Vladimir Putin's position with Donald Trump?

[Professor]

I'd like to think that that's true. I'd like to think that the Russians are going to overplay their hand. They tend to overplay their hand. But we can't underestimate the extent to which Donald Trump has liked to be thus far in a submissive, reactive position, as you say, uniquely vis a vis Vladimir Putin. So I'd like to think there's something the Russians can do that would alter that. They will push and push and push because in their view, they can keep pushing indefinitely. It's up to the Americans to show that that's wrong.

[Jen Psaki]

Professor Timothy Snyder, thank you very much for your guidance on this once again tonight. Always appreciate it. And coming up, a tale of two billionaires and what the one who was once the richest person in the world can teach the current richest person in the world. Bill Gates versus Elon Musk is next.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of the Briefing.

[Timothy Snyder]

We've never experienced a moment like this in our country and it leaves us all with a choice. Are we going to speak out or are we going to be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents. I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned is that you can't cower to bullies. You don't need to be hopeless. We have our voices and I will continue using mine.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The Briefing with Jen Psaki, Tuesday through Friday at 9:00pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Jen Psaki]

And now, tonight's Tale of Two Billionaires. The richest person in the world once said, the man who dies rich dies disgraced. No, that obviously wasn't the current richest person in the world who said that. That was Andrew Carnegie. In 1889, he created a charitable foundation that has continued to live after him for more than a century and helped fund, among many other things, the best children's programming this country has ever seen on pbs, as well as some health care programs for children. As Walter Isaacson reported in his biography on the current richest person in the world, Musk has shown little interest in philanthropy. Bill Gates tried. Walter Isaacson's book tells the story of Bill Gates, who was once the richest person in the world, trying to convince Elon Musk to give something back. But he got nowhere. Bill Gates has apparently given up on Elon Musk after Elon Musk decided that that the United States of America should stop feeding starving children with the excess food that the United States produces and cannot consume. At the same time, Elon Musk has decided that the United States of America should stop providing life saving medicine to the poorest people in the world, including the poorest children in the world. Elon Musk destroyed the United States Agency for International Development without Donald Trump apparently even knowing what it is. But Donald Trump is the president who empowered the richest person in the world to take food away from starving children, to take food away from starving mothers, starving grandfathers, and the current famine in Sudan. In an interview with the Financial Times published today, Bill Gates said the picture of the world's richest man killing the world's poorest children is not a pretty one. Let's consider that formulation for a moment from the person who once was the richest person in the world. That's Bill Gates describing the world's richest man killing the world's poorest children. No one voted for that in the last presidential election, but that's what we.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Got.

[Jen Psaki]

And that's what we gave to the world. The world's richest man killing the world's poorest children. Today is the 25th anniversary of the Gates foundation, created by Bill Gates and his then wife, Melinda Gates, to give away most of his wealth. On this 25th anniversary of the creation of the Gates Foundation, Bill Gates has announced that he is speeding up, giving his money away to the point that he expects the Gates foundation to spend all of it in the next 20 years and close down. That will mean a surge of funding by the Gates foundation, two important projects around the world that could save the lives of many millions of people. Today, Bill Gates told the New York Times that there might be hope for Elon Musk to someday have a change of heart about charitable giving. Bill Gates said he could go on to be a great philanthropist. In the meantime, the world's richest man has been involved in the deaths of the world's poorest children, people who decide presidential elections. That marginal group of voters, 3, 4, 5% of them who make up their minds at the end of a presidential campaign based on feelings or a slogan or a TV commercial, cannot know everything they are voting for when they are voting for a presidential candidate. In fact, none of us can know that, because the federal government is far too vast and complex for us to be able to anticipate every single decision or choice a candidate might make if that candidate becomes president of the United States. But we now know that a vote cast for Donald Trump in the last election has turned out to be a vote to heap cruelty on starving children and literally take their food away. Bill Gates knows that everything Elon Musk did to the United States Agency for International Development was done in full and complete ignorance. Bill Gates told the New York Times. You have to go to Africa and see a malaria ward at the height of the malaria season, or you have to see kids who are stunted. And weirdly, the incredible success of the last 25 years is not as visible to people as it should be. But that also means that when people cut these things, will they notice? They cut the money to Gaza Province in Mozambique that is really for drugs, so mothers don't give their babies hiv. But the people doing the cutting are so geographically illiterate they think it's Gaza and condoms. Will they go meet those babies who got HIV because that money was cut? Probably not. Definitely not. Elon Musk did that to those babies. No one voted for that. But that is what a vote for Donald Trump has turned into. The New York Times asked Bill Gates, were you surprised by the cruelty? Bill Gates said the reductions to USAID are stunning. Yes. I did not expect that. I don't think anybody expected that. Nobody expected the executive branch to cut the president's emergency plan for AIDS relief or polio money without the involvement of Congress. What's going on with HIV research and trial networks? I didn't expect that either. We will do our best to get these things changed. I will be an advocate, but those are real headwinds. I see it as a four to six year interruption, four to six years in which Bill Gates, who has been there, sees, quote, the picture of the world's richest man killing the world's poorest children. The Financial Times reports Gates intends to pass on less than 1% of his wealth to his children. He said he was a supporter of a strong estate tax to prevent dynastic wealth and of much more progressive taxation. And explaining his decision to part with his wealth over the next 20 years, Bill Gates, who is 69 years old, said, people will say a lot of things about me when I die, but I am determined that he died rich will not be one of them. There are too many urgent problems to solve. Coming up, Sister Simone Campbell will join us to discuss the Catholic Church choosing its first American pope today, Pope Leo XIV. That's next. For the first time, the world's 1.4 billion Roman Catholics have an American population. Pope Robert Prebost, who is Now Pope Leo XIV, was born in Chicago in 1955 as a graduate of Villanova University, a Catholic university near Philadelphia. Along with being the first American pope and the first to be born on the North American continent, Leo the 14th is an Augustinian and the first Augustinian friar to be named pope. The New York Times described Pope Leo XIV saying a member of the Order of St. Augustine, he resembles Pope Francis in his commitment to the poor and migrants and to meeting people where they are. Prior to becoming Pope, Leo XIV occasionally posted on social media, including posts critical of Donald Trump and J.D. vance. His most recent was in April when he shared a post from a Catholic commentator who referred to Donald Trump and El Salvador's President Bukele for laughing about the deportation of Kilmar Abrego Garcia. In February, he posted an article titled JD Vance is wrong. Jesus doesn't ask us to rank our love for others. In the article, the writer rebutted the vice president's claim from a Fox interview that Christians prioritize loving people close to them before those from other countries. The New York Times is reporting tonight that the new pope is partially descended from Creole people of color, according to Jari Onora, a noted genealogist and historian. Mr. Honora works at the Historic New Orleans Collection, a museum in the French Quarter, and was a researcher on the TV show Finding youg Roots with historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. The word Creole has multiple meanings in the Louisiana context. It can refer to people of Europe descent who were born in the Americas, but it also commonly refers to mixed race people of color. And joining our discussion now is Sister Simone Campbell, award winning author of Hunger for Prophetic Communities, Contemplation and the Common Good. She is former executive director of the Catholic advocacy group Network. Sister Simone, I have been wondering what all day, what you have been feeling and thinking about this new Pope.

[Sister Simone Campbell]

Oh, Lawrence, I was so excited when his name was announced and that it was Leo, because Catholic social teaching, the whole impetus of the Catholic Church in social justice, was started by Pope Leo xiii. And now we have Pope Leo II xiv, who is picking up that mantle not just from Pope Francis but also from Pope Leo xiii. I think it's a refreshing, engaging opportunity that we have at this moment in the church. It's exciting.

[Jen Psaki]

And Sister, the first American pope.

[Sister Simone Campbell]

Yes, he's an American in Chicago and I understand there's a fight in Chicago about whether he supported the Cubs or the White Sox. But apart from that, I think he's also a man of the world because he's lit about a third of his life in the US About a third in Peru and about a third in Italy. So he's really an international person who speaks five languages fluently. So he's a great gift of internationality and his emphasis, like Pope Francis, on cnidality, which is the whole effort at conversation in the church, at coming Together through conversation, I think makes him a natural for the next step.

[Jen Psaki]

We have seen some American cardinals who, I guess the way I would put it, are surprisingly sympathetic to Donald Trump. They try not to be overtly political, but you can tell that there's a certain chumminess and sense of support of Donald Trump by some of them. And we also have many American cardinals who stand in opposition to so much of what Donald Trump stands for. Can we place the new pope somewhere in that mix? Do we know enough?

[Sister Simone Campbell]

Well, I think based on this is funny to say about a new pope, but based on his tweets, I think we can say that he stands with those who are marginalized in our society. So he stands with the migrants he had a tweet about opposing. Well, the one you had about the dismissal of the problem with the immigrants that have been deported to El Salvador that he criticized the administration for that. He also has a history of being present to those who are most vulnerable. And I think since the segment that you just had about this administration's refusal to care for those marginalized, those suffering in our world, I think we're going to see some clear critique of that, of their attitudes.

[Jen Psaki]

Sister Simone Campbell, so important to me personally to hear your reaction to this new pope tonight and to our audience. Thank you very much for joining us.

[Sister Simone Campbell]

An honor to be with you. Thank you.

[Jen Psaki]

Pope Leo will get tonight's last word in English next. Here is Cardinal Robert Prevost last year before he became Pope Leo xiv.

[Cardinal Robert Prevost]

And as Pope Francis has reminded us many times, a bishop is called to serve. His authority is service. And so to look for different ways in which a bishop can serve in any given society, in any given church, I think is very important. The bishop is not supposed to be a little prince sitting in his kingdom, but rather called authentically to be humble, to be close to the people he serves, to walk with them, to suffer with them, and to look for ways that he can better live the gospel message in the midst of his people people.

[Jen Psaki]

Pope Leo XIV gets tonight's last word for life with Pets. There's Chewy delivering everything, whether you need food, fun or pharmacy. Chewy even has 24, 7 live chat with everything you need or need to know. There's Chewy for life with Pets.