Lawrence: RFK Jr., the most dangerous nepo baby in American history, testified today not under oath

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Episode: RFK Jr., the most dangerous nepo baby in American history, testified today not under oath
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell
Date: September 5, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the testimony of Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Secretary of Health and Human Services under Donald Trump, before the Senate Finance Committee—remarkably, not under oath. Lawrence O’Donnell explores RFK Jr.’s legacy of nepotism, repeated misinformation around vaccines and public health, and the consequences of his appointment. The episode transitions to include discussions on federal court rulings against Donald Trump's tariff policies and concludes with an in-depth interview with Abigail Spanberger, Democratic candidate for governor of Virginia, addressing challenges facing her state.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. RFK Jr.’s Testimony and the Legacy of Nepotism

[01:51-10:26]

• Lawrence O’Donnell sets the stage by comparing RFK Jr. to famous "nepo babies," including Kim Jong Un and Donald Trump, each inheriting unearned power.
• He documents RFK Jr.'s lack of qualifications and history with addiction:
  “Robert Kennedy Jr. Was a heroin addict in high school, college and law school and beyond. He did not have one day of his life as a serious student.” ([04:11])
• Criticizes Trump’s appointment of RFK Jr. based solely on name recognition:
  “He got that job from Donald Trump because of one word, Kennedy.” ([07:12])
• RFK Jr.’s history of misinformation:
  • Called COVID vaccines “a crime against humanity,” and yet in a contradiction, praised Trump’s vaccine efforts in Senate testimony.
  • O’Donnell: “Robert Kennedy Jr. Is a crime against humanity. People are already dying this year... because they followed the guidance of the anti vaccine warrior and madman, Robert Kennedy Jr.” ([08:47])

2. RFK Jr., Perjury, and Ties to Jeffrey Epstein

[10:26-13:04]

• RFK Jr. was not sworn in during testimony after Republican chairman Mike Crapo declined to put him under oath.
• O’Donnell details RFK Jr.’s connections to Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, quoting Maxwell's highly questionable exculpatory statement:
  “I never, ever saw any man doing something inappropriate with a woman of any age.” —(Maxwell, [10:45])
• O’Donnell points out the absurdity and unreliability, highlighting Maxwell’s perjury and her conviction for trafficking.

3. Lack of Accountability and Congressional Response

[13:04-17:43]

• O’Donnell voices frustration at RFK Jr.’s lies before the committee:
  “The birthright that he believes he has to any job that he's unqualified for comes with, he believes the right to lie to anyone about anything...” ([13:34])
• Georgia Senator Raphael Warnock directly confronts RFK Jr. with his own words regarding the CDC:
  • Warns RFK Jr. is a "hazard to the health of the American people.”
  • Calls for resignation or firing: “If you don't resign, the President of the United States... should fire you.” ([17:21])
• O’Donnell’s background as Senate Finance Committee staff lends unique insight: witnessing such open hostility and dishonesty from a witness is unprecedented.

4. Senator Raphael Warnock Interview

[17:43-24:29]

• Warnock discusses the CDC shooting in Atlanta, fueled by anti-vaccine rhetoric similar to RFK Jr.’s:
  “Our CDC workers here in Atlanta are heroes... In the midst of this, you have this reckless policy being put forward rooted in conspiracy theory...” ([19:46])
• Reiterates need for national, not patchwork, public health leadership:
  “We can't have a patchwork of solutions... That's why we have a Health and Human Services Department cabinet in the first place.” ([21:24])
• Expresses disappointment with Republican senators who permitted RFK Jr.’s confirmation due to party loyalty.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Nepotism and Incompetence:

  "Donald Trump, the most famous Nepo baby in the New York real estate business, is a born believer in nepotism."
  —Lawrence O’Donnell ([07:45])

• On Vaccine Misinformation:

  "Robert Kennedy Jr. is a crime against humanity. People are already dying this year in this country from measles because they followed the guidance of the anti vaccine warrior and madman, Robert Kennedy Jr."
  —Lawrence O’Donnell ([08:47])

• On Lying During Testimony:

  "He believes he was born with the right to lie like that. He says, this is the first I'm hearing about it. That's a lie. You know that's a lie. Everyone knows that's a lie."
  —Lawrence O’Donnell ([13:32])

• On Threats to CDC Staff:

  “Our CDC workers here in Atlanta are heroes. …In the midst of this, you have this reckless policy being put forward rooted in conspiracy theory…”
  —Senator Raphael Warnock ([19:46])

• On RFK Jr.'s Public Health Record:

  “For the first time, we’re seeing deaths from children, from measles. … We’re seeing that under your watch.”
  —Senator Raphael Warnock ([17:09])

• On Congressional Responsibility:

  "Why go through the trouble... of running... only to go to Washington and give all of your power, advise and consent... over to Donald Trump? ...If they had just stood up, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place."
  —Senator Raphael Warnock ([23:40])

---

[24:29-34:14] Switch to Legal and Economic News

Trump’s Federal Court Losses and Tariffs

• O’Donnell reports on Trump’s illegal tariffs and loss in court, joined by Senator Amy Klobuchar ([26:26-34:14]):
  • Tariffs ruled unconstitutional, hitting US manufacturers/farmers hard.
  • Klobuchar notes lack of support outside Trump’s base:
    “38% of the American people… say that they're okay with these tariffs, which is basically his extreme base by now.” ([33:22])

---

[34:14-46:22] Virginia Governor’s Race: Abigail Spanberger Interview

Importance & Dynamics of the Virginia Governor Race

[36:17-39:49]

• O’Donnell sets up the historic importance of the off-year governor’s race, highlighting Spanberger’s credentials and current polling lead.

Abigail Spanberger on the Ground in Virginia

• Spanberger describes:
  • Her campaign’s momentum and massive door-knocking effort.
  • Top voter concerns: affordability, housing, healthcare, schools, and Washington’s “chaos.” ([39:49])
  • Mobilizing voters and building enthusiasm:
    “The energy is electric here in the Commonwealth of Virginia…” ([40:46])

Impact of Federal Layoffs

[41:23-43:48]

• Discusses financial and community pain caused by Trump and Musk’s mass federal layoffs, with significant job losses and economic stagnation.
• Shares a personal encounter with a constituent losing his job due to federal cutbacks.

Protecting Public Health at the State Level

[43:48-46:09]

• Spanberger outlines catastrophic effects of federal public health cuts and the imperative for state-level leadership:
  • “More than 300,000 Virginians stand to lose their health care because of the reconciliation bill that the president signed into law…” ([44:54])
  • Pledges as governor to defend vaccine access, healthcare, and public well-being.

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

| Segment Description | Start Time | |--------------------------------------------------------------|------------| | Opening political context, Virginia’s significance | 01:02 | | Nepotism, RFK Jr.'s qualification, and testimony overview | 01:51 | | RFK Jr.'s ties to Epstein, ethics, and perjury | 10:26 | | Lying under oath and legacy of entitlement | 13:04 | | CDC shooting and Warnock's critique of RFK Jr. | 16:07 | | Senator Warnock interview—public health impacts | 17:43 | | Trump tariffs, federal courts, and impact summaries | 26:26 | | Interview: Sen. Amy Klobuchar on tariffs | 28:06 | | Introductions, context for Virginia governor’s race | 36:17 | | Interview: Abigail Spanberger—campaign and economic impacts | 39:49 | | Spanberger on health care, public health threats | 44:54 |

---

Takeaway

This episode highlights the dangerous intersection of nepotism, misinformation, and public policy through the lens of RFK Jr.'s Senate appearance and broader political consequences. O’Donnell and his guests sound the alarm on the direct harms caused by unqualified leadership—whether in health policy or trade—and underline the urgent need for accountability and science-driven leadership, echoed at both state and national levels.

---

Recommended for listeners who want sharp, insightful political analysis with a strong focus on the consequences of current leadership decisions—delivered in Lawrence O’Donnell’s signature skeptical and urgent tone.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Ondeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, Ondeck's loans up to $250,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star trust pilot reviews, Ondeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in [e-mail] depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondeck does not lend to North Dakota, all loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

[Lifelock Advertiser]

Sometimes an identity threat is a ring of professional hackers. And sometimes it's an overworked accountant who forgot to encrypt their connection while sending bank details.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

I need a coffee.

[Lifelock Advertiser]

And you need Lifelock. Because your info is in endless places. It only takes one mistake to expose you to identity theft. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first [e-mail] special offer terms apply.

[Jen Psaki]

The Last Word with Lawrence O' Donnell starts right now. Hey, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Hey, Jen. We have Abigail Spamberger joining us tonight. Candidate for governor in Virginia, the most important election of the year. As you know, of course, my home state. Yeah. And it's always, it's, it's as if some political science class designed this, that there's always the governor's election in Virginia the year after the presidential election because Virginia has that one term election limit for the governor for years. And so we all stare at what does this mean for Washington when we see which party comes out on top there.

[Jen Psaki]

It's a really interesting race. She's a great candidate. There's also the New Jersey governor's race. The two of them were roommates, the Democratic nominees, both natsec ladies, which I love experts. So really interesting. I look forward to watching your interview.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thanks, Jen. Thank you. Well, the most dangerous Nepo baby in American history testified today, not under oath. The most dangerous Nepo baby in the world is, of course, the owner and operator of North Korea's nuclear weapons, Kim Jong Un, who inherited his dictatorship from his father. Robert Kennedy Jr. Inherited his cabinet position from his father, who was the only other Kennedy to have served in the Cabinet. Neither Kennedy earned a cabinet position. Robert Kennedy was appointed Attorney General by his brother, the President of the United States, John F. Kennedy, in 1961. Even though Robert Kennedy had no experience as a prosecutor and had never appeared in court as a lawyer, no one other than his brother ever would have chosen Robert Kennedy as Attorney General of the United States. Robert Kennedy's nomination as Attorney General sailed through the Senate Judiciary Committee unanimously with Democrat and Republican support and only one Republican voting against the nomination on the Senate floor on the grounds that the 35 year old Robert Kennedy did not have enough experience to be Attorney General. Nepotism was a widely accepted practice in 1961 that surprised no one and almost never attracted public comment. The term Nepo baby would not be invented until the next century. Robert Kennedy didn't earn his jobs in Washington in the 1950s and the 1960s, but he was a serious student of and practitioner of government. And he was always growing in the job. And later, as United States Senator from New York, Robert Kennedy tried to move the country and our politics in the right direction. And he was assassinated in 1968 during his presidential campaign in which he was trying to save lives by running against American involvement in the Vietnam war. Robert Kennedy Jr. Is not trying to save lives. Robert Kennedy Jr. Repeatedly today in his Senate testimony used the phrase when my uncle was president. No Kennedy has ever trafficked more blatantly and offensively in the dead Kennedy's memories than Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Who has never been a serious student of or practitioner of anything. Robert Kennedy Jr. Was a heroin addict in high school, college and law school and beyond. He did not have one day of his life as a serious student. I was in one class with him in college in a small classroom where when he showed up, it was obvious that he wasn't really present. The first professional entry in his resume came from, of course, a family friend, the longtime Manhattan District Attorney Robert Morgenthau, who handed Robert Kennedy Jr. An assistant district Attorney's job as soon as Robert Kennedy Jr. Finished law school. But before he passed the bar exam. Robert Kennedy Jr. Had to surrender that job when, not surprisingly, he failed the bar exam. While he was a heroin addict. He was a heroin addict. While he was taking the bar exam and working in the District Attorney's office in Manhattan, he was breaking the law every day. Robert Kennedy Jr. Did not take organic chemistry in college. Robert Kennedy Jr. Did not Take inorganic chemistry in college. Robert Kennedy Jr did not take biology in college. Robert Kennedy Jr did Not take a single pre med course in college and could not have gotten through one day of such a course. And that is who Donald Trump has put at the top of the Department of Health and Human Services with jurisdiction over Medicare and Medicaid and everything else the federal government does in the health care sector. And he got that Job from Donald Trump because of one word, Kennedy. Donald Trump, a lifelong attention addict, grew up obviously dazzled by the Kennedy fame machine. Fame is currency with Donald Trump. And so the most unqualified and incompetent Health and Human Services secretary in history took his place in the Trump Cabinet, working for a man whose fortune and business career was handed to him by his father. Donald Trump, the most famous Nepo baby in the New York real estate business, is a born believer in nepotism. Donald Trump, whose neurological aging has surely reached the point where he can no longer spell the word science, appears to hate expertise, especially in medical science. And so Donald Trump got the Health and Human Services secretary that he deserves, but the country did not. Robert Kennedy Jr. Has called the COVID vaccines, quote, a crime against humanity. But in today's hearing, he agreed with the Republican senator who said that Donald Trump should get the Nobel Prize for development of the COVID 19 vaccines, even though Nobel Prizes in science are actually awarded to these scientists who do the work. And so Today, Robert Kennedy Jr. Says that Donald Trump should get a Nobel Prize for what Robert Kennedy Jr. Has called a crime against humanity. Robert Kennedy Jr. Is a crime against humanity. People are already dying this year in this country from measles because they followed the guidance of the anti vaccine warrior and Madman, Robert Kennedy Jr. Robert Kennedy Jr. Lies about science every time he pretends to talk about it. He has called the COVID 19 vaccine the deadliest vaccine ever made. But he did not dare say that today because two of the Republican doctors on the Senate Finance Committee don't like that kind of crazy talk. Today's hearing in the Senate Finance Committee began with a request by the former chairman of the committee and now the top Democrat on the committee, Ron Wyden, to have the witness, Robert Kennedy Jr. Sworn in so that he would be testifying under oath. And the Republican chairman of the committee from Idaho, Mike Crapo, ever faithful to Donald Trump and the right to publicly lie, refused to put the witness under oath. And so the Trump Cabinet member who was friends with Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell did not have to testify under oath today. When Robert Kennedy Jr. Was first asked by Newsweek how many times he flew on Jeffrey Epstein's plane, he said once. When the New York Post asked him about it. Later, he changed it to twice. In her very friendly discussion with Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer, Todd Blanche, now the Deputy Attorney General, Ghislaine Maxwell, fills pages of the transcript talking about her friendship with Bobby, as she calls him, Ghislaine Maxwell friend of Robert Kennedy Jr. She talked about being on the Epstein plane with Robert Kennedy Jr. And then Todd Blanche asked if she recalled there being anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy and masseuses or young women. Do you have any recollection of Mr. Kennedy, of there being anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy and masseuses or young women on the trip you just talked about?

[Jen Psaki]

I never saw anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Do you know whether he ever got a massage from one of the masseuses?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Do you know either way?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I do not. But not something you remember. I mean, absolutely not.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, he.

[Abigail Spanberger]

Well, I mean, yesterday, if I didn't.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Make it clear, I will reiterate.

[Jen Psaki]

I never, ever saw any man doing something inappropriate with a woman of any age.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Well, I guess that settles it. There's convicted sex trafficker Elaine Maxwell, who was indicted for perjury, saying that Robert Kennedy Jr. Did nothing inappropriate with masseuse or young women. And in the same breath, she delivers the pure perjury of I never, ever saw any man doing something inappropriate with a woman of any age. And we have under oath testimony in Ghislaine Maxwell's trial that she was in the room while Jeffrey Epstein had sex with naked young girls more than once. We have under oath testimony in Ghislaine Maxwell's trial that she personally engaged in sexual activity with Jeffrey Epstein and those girls at the same time in the same room. And so the person who's telling you that Robert Kennedy Jr. Didn't do anything inappropriate with masseuses and young women on Jeffrey Epstein's plane on a trip with Jeffrey Epstein is the very same person who in the very same breath, tells the lie. I never, ever saw any man doing something inappropriate with a woman of any age. Robert Kennedy Jr. Is more interested in what's in the Epstein files than any other Cabinet member in the Trump Cabinet. And today, when he was not under oath, Robert Kennedy Jr. Said several things that absolutely would be perjury if he were testifying under oath, including this.

[Senator Mike Crapo]

Do you think the women on the steps of the Capitol were a hoax yesterday?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I don't know about any women on the steps of the Capitol.

[Senator Mike Crapo]

The women who were talking about Epstein, do you think they were a hoax yesterday?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Do I think they were.

[Senator Mike Crapo]

Do you think they were perpetrating a hoax yesterday?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Perpetuating a hoax? Yeah, I have no idea what they were saying. This is the first I'm hearing about it.

[Senator Mike Crapo]

Your first? That you're hearing about the women on the Capitol step saying that they believe that the Epstein information should be made Public. That's the first you're hearing about it. What I'm saying is you are perpetrating hoaxes. You, as the Secretary of health, so you're undermining the whole health care delivery system and you keep trying to point to chronic disease, but you're not putting solutions on the table to cover more Americans, and you're taking away the science and technology that has made us the leader, that has saved, according to the first Trump administration surgeon general, millions of lives. And you don't want to keep that going. So, no, I don't support your continued efforts at secretary.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Now, you know what he looks like when he's lying. Of course, you already did. He actually said, I don't know about any women on the steps of the Capitol yesterday. That's a lie. That's a lie. The world knows that's a lie. And he has. He believes Kennedy entitled audacity to be able to sit there and lie in that committee, to that committee, to you, to the world. He believes he was born with the right to lie like that. He says, this is the first I'm hearing about it. That's a lie. You know that's a lie. Everyone knows that's a lie. Everyone in Washington, everyone in the country knew what was happening on the steps of the Capitol last night. Robert Kennedy Jr. Sat in the witness chair in the Senate Finance Committee and accused United States senators of lying. That has never happened in the witness chair in that hearing room before, where I worked on the staff of that committee during hundreds of hearings over several years. The birthright that he believes he has to any job that he's unqualified for comes with, he believes the right to lie to anyone about anything, including when lives are at stake, the right to lie to parents about how to keep their children healthy, the right to lie to this country about public health, the right to lie to the world about vaccines has that right. Our first guest tonight, Georgia Senator Raphael Warnock, represents Atlanta, the home of the Centers for Disease Control, which was the target of a madman with a gun who killed himself after killing DeKalb County Police Officer David Rose and firing over 500 bullets at the CDC. The investigation found that the shooter wanted to make the public aware that he shares Robert Kennedy Jr's distrust of vaccines.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Did you say that the CDC was, quote, the most corrupt federal agency in the history of the world?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Not the history of the world, but definitely hhs.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Did you say that?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I did not say that, but I did say it's the most corrupt agency at hhs. And maybe the government.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

So you call the CDC corruption. Did you say that CDC staff are, quote, horrible people?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Horrible people.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Did you say that they're killing children and they don't care?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

No.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Okay. I think that we all have a history of listening to you and these answers, but you're on the record for a number of these statements. Despite your lack of credentials and expertise, clearly you have an agenda. It is a threat to the public health of the American people. It's clear that you are carrying out your extremist beliefs, which is why you attempted to fire Dr. Manarez.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We're the sickest people on Earth.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

I'm speaking.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

How am I a threat?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Secretary Kennedy, for the first time, we're seeing deaths from children, from measles. We haven't seen that in two decades. We're seeing that under your watch. You are a hazard to the health of the American people.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Can I respond to that, Senator?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

No, I need my time.

[Abigail Spanberger]

We need to wrap.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

You are a hazard to the health of the American people. I think that you ought to resign. And if you don't resign, the President of the United States who put forward Operation Warp Speed, which worked, should fire you. Thank you so much.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Senator Raphael Warnock of Georgia. He's a member of the Senate Finance Committee. Senator, thank you very much for joining us tonight. What was it like for you to sit there and read his words to him and have him lie to you and saying he's never said those things?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Well, Lawrence, it's good to be here with you tonight. Let's face it, Robert Kennedy has a history of lying. That's what he does. He lied to me during his confirmation hearing when I confronted him with his own words, and he said he didn't say those words. And then I held up the transcript. So no surprises there tonight. But listen, this is deadly serious. This is not about partisan politics. This is about the health of the American people. It's about our children. As school begins and this chaos of confusion, who sits now at the helm of Health and Human Services has created a situation in which people don't know what to do. And we're seeing death from measles in children for the first time in a couple of decades. Robert Kennedy is a hazard to our health, and he ought to be fired, and that can't happen soon enough.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator, I want to focus on part of what you were focusing on today in the committee, which is the hazard he is to the health of people working at the cdc, literally, that his rhetoric fueled the madman shooter who opened fire on everybody working there. What can be done to protect people working there in the future? And what can Atlanta do in the face of this kind of threat? Because when you, if someone's out there firing at a building in Atlanta that's threatening the entire city.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Well, first of all, let me just say that our CDC workers here in Atlanta are heroes. They are American heroes. They are the best among us. These are scientists, these are healthcare professionals, public health professionals, folks who are engaged in work from dealing with the issue of maternal mortality to vaccinations to keeping our soldiers safe in developing countries. They did noble work for us in the midst of the last pandemic and they're busy getting us ready for the next one. And in the midst of this, you have this reckless policy being put forward rooted in conspiracy theory that Mr. Kennedy has held for years. And as you point out, he shares the views of this madman who came to the CDC. I think some 500 casings were found. He came to do a lot of damage. Sadly, we lost an American hero, a police officer. We could have seen a whole lot more damage than that in more ways than one. He's putting all of us at risk going forward.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

How can we just heard in the last hour, Governor Morihale of Massachusetts talking about how Massachusetts is now going to step in the public health arena in a stronger way in order to defend the people of Massachusetts against Robert Kennedy Jr. And what he's doing in Washington, what needs to be done in Georgia.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Well, I think you may well see more of this. But listen, while I applaud and I saw the governor's interview, I applaud what she's doing. I appreciate what my friends on the west coast are doing to deal with this issue. But there's a reason why it's called public health. When you're talking about disease, when you're talking about an airborne disease, for example, COVID 19, it knows no state boundaries, it knows no political parties. And so we can't have a patchwork of solutions to these problems, which is why we have a Health and Human Services Department cabinet in the first place. And so there's a solution to this. President Trump, who to his credit was responsible for Operation Warp Speed, which saved a lot of lives, ought to lean into that part of his legacy. Fire Robert Kennedy. Let's bring back the world class scientists who, some of whom have been fired, others who have resigned in the wake of the mess that he's created, and let's restore integrity to the CDC and continue to build on the incredible work that these workers have been doing for a long time.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

When Senator Wyden asked for Robert Kennedy to be put under oath, he, of course, remained silent. Chairman Crapo protected him. But he could have raised his hand at that moment and volunteered and said, I will voluntarily, happily testify under oath. That didn't happen.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Lying is what he does. He's a con man. He is unqualified. He is unfit. He is unserious. And all of us have seen how privilege works in the world. But in this case, it's a matter of life and death. He never should have been confirmed. I'm deeply disappointed that my Republican colleagues continue to give over their power to Donald Trump. I wonder, why go through the trouble it takes a lot to become a senator. Why go through the trouble of running and making your case before the people of your state, only to go to Washington and give all of your power, advise and consent, the power of the purse, the power to put forward bipartisan solutions for the problems that Americans face every day? Why would you give that up? If they had just stood up, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. I was glad to see some of them speak up today, and maybe they will join me and others in calling for the resignation of Robert Kennedy in this sad moment in which the biggest threat to the health of the American people is the Secretary of Health and.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Human Services, Senator Raphael Warnock. Thank you very much for starting off our coverage tonight.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Coming up, Donald Trump is on a losing streak in federal courts against Harvard University with his illegal and unconstitutional. And with his illegal and unconstitutional tariffs. Senator Amy Klobuchar will join us next.

[Ondeck Advertiser]

Cash flow crunch on Deck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply [e-mail] funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondac does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. I'm now switching my team to some fancy work platform that somehow knows exactly how we work. And its AI features are literally saving us hours every day. We're big fans, and just like that, teams all around the world are falling for Monday.com with intuitive design, seamless AI capabilities, and custom workflows, it's the work platform your team will instantly click with. Head to Monday.com the first work platform you'll love to use.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should 1. It's $15 a month.

[Jen Psaki]

2.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Seriously, it's $15 a month. 3. No big contracts.

[Abigail Spanberger]

4.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I use it.

[Abigail Spanberger]

5.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

My mom uses it. Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront.

[Ondeck Advertiser]

Payment of $45 for three month plan $15 per month equivalent required New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and some fees extra. See mint mobile.com.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Donald Trump is On a Losing Streak in Federal Court Yesterday in Boston, Federal District Court Judge Allison Burrows ruled that Donald Trump violated the law and the constitution by blocking $2 billion of federal research funding at Harvard University. Donald Trump will now appeal that decision. With the case likely reaching the United States Supreme Court, the Trump tariffs are finally on their way to the United States Supreme Court. The Trump Justice Department has asked the supreme for an expedited appeal after the United States Circuit Court of Appeals confirmed affirmed the unanimous decision of the United States Court of International Trade that found the Trump tariffs to be unconstitutional and illegal. The appeals court opinion issued on Friday said both the Trump trafficking tariffs and the reciprocal tariffs are unbounded in scope, amount and duration. These tariffs apply to nearly all articles imported into the United States and in the case of the reciprocal tariffs apply to almost all countries, impose high rates which are ever changing and excessive and are not limited in duration. The trafficking and reciprocal tariffs assert an expansive authority that is beyond the express limitations of the authority delegated to the President by the International Emergency Economic Powers Act. Joining our discussion now is Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. She serves on the Senate Judiciary Committee and the Senate Commerce Committee. Senator, thank you very much for joining us tonight. And the.

[Jen Psaki]

Thanks, Lauren.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The courts are seeing these tariffs exactly as you have.

[Jen Psaki]

Exactly. And I am so glad you have kept on this because when you think of these tariffs or not, not just a bunch of gobbledygook court decisions. It's $2,400 tax on every single American family. And I was listening to the first part of your show with great interest. Love the work my Democratic colleagues did at that RFK Jr hearing. And I was thinking, what's the through line? Well, the through line is that just as RFK Jr. And this administration does not listen to patients, does not listen to doctors, doesn't care about public health, undermines the system and doesn't do anything about costs. Same thing with tariffs. They're not listening to the small businesses, they're not listening to the farmers. And instead, they have done these across the board tariffs. The big surprise, the courtsand by the way, the original decision, a Trump appointee, a Reagan appointee, they still exist, and an Obama appointee together said, no way. They don't even use the word tariff in this statute. And Congress is the one that has the authority to decide on tariffs. So that's why you saw this federal court decision that now it's going up to the Supreme Court. My guess is that they'll take it because it's a major question and that they will, I would think, look at the law and say, wait a minute, if we do any kind of a strict construction of the Constitution, he does not have the right to do this.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

There's so many ways we're getting reports every day about how these tariffs are actually working. Donald Trump's demented notion that this was going to somehow help American manufacturing. John Deere, very important American manufacturer and equipment supplier to Minnesota farmers and farmers literally everywhere in the world. New York Times is reporting. John Deere said that it expected 2025 sales for large agriculture machinery, the source of most of its revenue, to fall 15 to 20% and that that the malaise would continue into 2026. Last month, John Deere said net income in its most recent quarter was down 29% from a year earlier. Higher tariffs, primarily on steel, but also on aluminum, have cost the company $300 million so far, with nearly another 300 million expected by the end of the year. This summer, the company laid off 238 employees across factories in Illinois and Iowa. And, Senator, that's a real life story about the way the Trump tariffs come back and hit the United States.

[Jen Psaki]

And did you hear the last state you just mentioned? Iowa? The very state where the incumbent Republican Senator Joni Ernst just decided not to run in. This is gutting the rural economy. And you look at those numbers, it's across the board. Manufacturing jobs have been down every month since Donald Trump announced his tariffs. And in fact, for the first time now, we see the number of unemployed people exceeding the number of job openings since the pandemic. So that's what is happening. John Deere, of course, they make a bunch of their manufacturing equipment in America and that's great. But where do some of the parts come from? Where do they sell some of them? This is part of our economy that works with the rest of the world. And instead of looking at targeted tariffs or focusing on a few countries, he've just assessed these countries against our allies, against Canada, against Mexico, you name it. And you can now see the results. Costs are up, chaos is up. He's done it over 100 times, made tariff changes. And yes, corruption is up because he just decides who he's going to help and who he's not with. The 50% tariff tax on Brazil was a great example on that. When we have a trade surplus with them. Cuz he doesn't like that his buddy over there is on trial.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. The point you make about the corruption opportunities here, when you create a tariff regime that's being invented by one person by the day, it invites a massive amount of Washington lobbying targeted at trying to get exemptions. Apple has managed to do it. They've managed to keep the iPhone out of the Trump tariff system. And other companies are trying to do that every day, which opens up all sorts of incredible corruption opportunities in Washington at the lobbying level and elsewhere.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, because small businesses, they're roadkill. They do not have the money to hire those kinds of lobbyists. They do not have the resources to suddenly be invited into the White House or to a meeting by the Treasury Secretary. So you create this complete corrupt regime in how this has done. And there's nothing this president likes better. But I think the bottom line is this is affecting people in their everyday lives. 38% of the American people are only that percentage say that they're okay with these tariffs, which is basically his extreme base by now. And so you've got a situation where you do not have the support for these tariffs from moderate Republicans, from rural America, from independents. It's an unbelievable problematic thing for our economy. And I am really worried about what's going to happen next because he is not backing down. So the court is now going to see these. We in Congress are pushing legislation to overturn these tariffs. We were victorious on the bill that Senator Kaine and I and Senator Warner had. And I'm very excited. By the way, I'm going to tune into your interview with Abigail Spanberger, who's going to be our next great governor from the state of Virginia. But Virginia is a state that works with the rest of the world. And these kind of tariffs are hitting Virginia just like they're hitting other states in this nation.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator Amy Klobuchar, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Jen Psaki]

Great to be on Lawrence. Thank you. Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up the most important election of the year for the Democratic Party and the Republican Party is the election for governor of the swing state of Virginia, an election that is always seen as a sort of referendum on the current president. The Democratic candidate, former U.S. congresswoman Abigail Spanberger, is currently in the lead in Virginia, and she will join us next.

[Ondeck Advertiser]

On Deck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team or bridging cash flow gaps, On Deck's loans up to $250,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star Trustpilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in [e-mail] depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. On Deck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans an amount subject to lender.

[Lifelock Advertiser]

Approval Sometimes an identity threat is a ring of professional hackers, and sometimes it's an overworked accountant who forgot to encrypt their connection while sending bank details. I need a coffee and you need Lifelock. Because your info is in endless places, it only takes one mistake to expose you to identity theft. LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first [e-mail] specialoffer terms apply.

[Ondeck Advertiser]

I'm not switching my team to some fancy work platform that somehow knows exactly how we work, and its AI features are literally saving us hours every day. We're big fans, and just like that, teams all around the world are falling for Monday.com with intuitive design, seamless AI capabilities, and custom workflows, it's the work platform your team will instantly click with. Head to Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The first big political test after every presidential election is the election for governor of Virginia. Virginia has given us a permanent political test that seems like it was designed in a political science course. Virginia governors are term limited to 14 year term, and the election for Virginia governor is held in the odd numbered years immediately following the presidential election year. Because Virginia is a swing state that could go either way, the political world studies the Virginia governor's race for evidence about the strength of the incumbent president's political position. One year after Joe Biden won the presidency, Republican Glenn Youngkin won the governorship of Virginia in what was taken at the time to be a bad sign for Democrats politically. Now, almost a year after Republicans won the White House. A Democrat is in the lead in the campaign for governor in Virginia, the most important election that we will have this year in this country. Former Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger, who will join us in a moment, has a seven point lead in the latest polling in the Virginia governor's election. The New York Times describes Abigail Spanberger as having, quote, an unlikely mix of credentials, especially for a Democrat. A down to earth suburban mom of three who spent years tracking terrorists, narco traffickers and other transnational bad guys. Her biography helps convey a gut level grasp of Virginians everyday anxieties about schools and crime and providing for their families and experience making tough calls in life or death situations involving national security. Message Here is a leader both formidable and approachable, tough and caring, driven by her commitment to service. Former Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger served as a CIA officer and was a volunteer at the gun safety organization Moms Demand Action before she was elected to Congress in 2018 during Donald Trump's first term. She is running against the state of Virginia's Lieutenant governor, Republican Winsome Earl Sears, who has called abortion, quote, genocide.

[Abigail Spanberger]

I'm Abigail Spanberger, candidate for governor and I sponsored this ad. MAGA Republican Winsome Earl Sears. I am speaking. What does she say about Trump's bad budget bill?

[Jen Psaki]

The bill, as you know now does so many great things. What the Trump budget raises health care.

[Abigail Spanberger]

Costs, raises mortgages, raises the price of electricity and gas.

[Jen Psaki]

You pay more so billionaires can pay less.

[Abigail Spanberger]

We've heard enough when Samuel Sears is so far right, she's wrong for Virginia.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joining us now is former Democratic Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger of Virginia running for governor in the election that will be held two months from today, exactly two months from today. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. I want to begin with where you are in the momentum here with this lead that you have at this point. You've had a larger lead earlier in the summer. What do you see as the next couple of weeks of this race going into election night?

[Abigail Spanberger]

Well, things are exciting on the ground here in Virginia and we actually have 45 days of early voting. So the first chance to go to the polls and vote in the Commonwealth of Virginia will be September 19th. So we have been running hard since I first launched this campaign, traveling across the Commonwealth. I've been listening to people about the issues that matter most to them and developing plans to address those issues. Certainly everywhere I go people are talking about the issues of affordability, cost of housing, health care and their energy bills. People are talking about the concerns they have for their kids. And the strength of our public schools and overall, how we as a commonwealth can contend with so much of the chaos that is impacting us as it comes out of Washington. So we're going to continue campaigning all across Virginia, getting people excited, mobilizing volunteers. We have knocked more doors than any campaign in Virginia's history, not just for our campaign, but for our fantastic lieutenant governor candidate Ghazala Hashmi, our attorney general candidate Jay Jones, and the 100 Democrats who are running in all 100 of our seats in the House of Delegates that will all be on the ballot this year. So it's an exciting time. The energy is electric here in the Commonwealth of Virginia. And if anybody wants to follow what we have going on here, you can go to abigail spanberger.com to keep tabs on everything happening in Virginia as we run through the tape on Election Day. We intend to win.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The state of Virginia, especially as it borders Washington, D.C. has been heavily impacted by the job losses involved with Donald Trump's and Elon Musk's mass firing of federal workers. How has that impacted Virginia?

[Abigail Spanberger]

Let me talk about just what it feels like on the ground. And then. And then I'll talk about numbers. So. Well, for starters, Virginia is home to more than 320,000 federal employees, people who devote themselves to public service in service to neighbors and friends. Our national security the research that has enabled breakthroughs in science, technology and medicine and agriculture. And across Virginia, everywhere I go, but it's heavily concentrated in Northern Virginia and Hampton Roads. I hear from people who have lost their jobs, whose neighbors have lost their jobs. I hear from restaurant owners whose clientele have lost jobs. Jobs. The impact is substantial. And, you know, so notably, I was at an event a couple weeks ago and I had a gentleman approach me. It was a Thursday evening, and he said, I just wanted to come to the event. I wanted to let you know I'm going to be fired tomorrow because of Doge. And while, you know, he expressed great sadness about losing the job he had devoted himself to, he spoke a bit about the national security role that he fills and his worry about what that means into the future. So it's extraordinary to hear from all of these Virginians who are kind of heartbroken over the loss of their jobs, but also the duty and the responsibility that they filled. But UVA just came out with a study that says we are expecting no job growth throughout 2026. That's in addition to the jobs that we've already lost. You know, so many people were fired in the beginning and early months of the year, but so many people also took deferred retirement. So the end of this month, September, we will see many people's public service come to an end. And that has a real impact on Virginia's economy. We've had job losses every month. And you know, it is impacting our economy. It is impacting our employment rates. And ultimately, I'm hearing about it from small business owners in addition to those who have had the direct impact on themselves and on their livelihoods.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We have to squeeze in a commercial break here. When we come back, I want to ask you about something that Massachusetts Governor Maura Healey was discussing earlier tonight with Jen Psaki about what she's doing in Massachusetts, basically to defend public health and defend it against the threats that are coming from Donald Trump and Robert Kennedy, Jr. To Public Health. We're going to be right back after this break. Democratic candidate for governor of Virginia, Abigail Spanberger is back with us. Your state senior Senator Mark Warner asked Robert Kennedy, Jr. Today in the Finance Committee hearing how many Americans died of COVID and Robert Kennedy, Jr. S answer was, I don't know. Senator Warner was astounded at that ignorance. But in the face of that ignorance, Massachusetts Governor Maura Healey was saying earlier tonight she's changing Massachusetts approach to public health. California is, New York is. What do you think Virginia has to do about public health now that Donald Trump and Robert Kennedy are in charge of public health nationally?

[Abigail Spanberger]

Well, I think the landscape is even more dire than just having someone as unqualified as Robert Kennedy at the helm in charge of public health. It's the attacks on Medicaid, the attacks on rural hospitals in Virginia. More than 300,000 Virginians stand to lose their health care because of the reconciliation bill that the president signed into law. A minimum of six of our rural hospitals are likely to face closure in coming years. And we know that there are an estimated $26 billion in federal money that has historically come to Virginia hospitals over the next 14 years that will just disappear. So the threats to public health are then coupled with cuts, cuts to our health care systems and the social safety net that are dire. So this is a time when governors across the country need to stand up to protect access to vaccines, access to health care, access to public health, and put those priorities first. Certainly that's what I intend to do as governor. And it is a driving force for me to run because I will put Virginia to first, their safety, security, our economy ahead of anything, certainly ahead of a president or an ill informed HHS.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Secretary Abigail Spanberger, the frontrunner for governor of Virginia as of tonight. Thank you very much for joining us tonight and discussing your very important campaign. Thank you.

[Abigail Spanberger]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We'll be right back. The Democratic candidate for governor of Virginia, Abigail Spanberger, who's currently in the lead speed, gets tonight's last word.

[Abigail Spanberger]

Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving. Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports. Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time, help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast.