Lawrence: The most perverse thing during Blanche/Maxwell interview was their laughter

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Episode: "Lawrence: The most perverse thing during Blanche/Maxwell interview was their laughter"
Date: September 3, 2025
Host: Lawrence O’Donnell
Guests: Brad Edwards (attorney for Epstein victims), Anoushka DiGiorgio (Epstein survivor and trial witness), Andrew Weissmann (former FBI general counsel, legal analyst)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the recently released “interview” between Ghislaine Maxwell and Todd Blanche, Donald Trump’s former criminal defense lawyer and current Deputy Attorney General, conducted under the Trump Justice Department. Lawrence O’Donnell dissects the troubling details and context of these meetings, emphasizing the perverse atmosphere—particularly the inappropriate laughter shared by all parties in the room, including Maxwell, her lawyers, and Justice Department officials. The conversation highlights the ongoing plight of Epstein’s survivors, the Department of Justice's troubling response, and the political efforts in Congress to finally bring transparency to the Epstein files. The show includes firsthand perspectives from a victim and a victims’ representative.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The "Interview" and Its Context

• Timing and Secrecy: O’Donnell opens by connecting the Friday-afternoon release of the transcript to “Take Out the Trash Day” (00:58), when the White House traditionally dumps unfavorable stories to minimize attention, drawing on his West Wing experience.
• Faux Transcript: The transcript is not comprehensive or official—there was no court reporter, and only selective recordings were transcribed, meaning critical context (like when the recording was turned on/off) is missing (03:28).
• Atmosphere in the Room: O’Donnell emphasizes the “perverse” laughter throughout the sessions, calling this “the single sickest reaction you could have in that discussion of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell’s sex crimes” (03:28, 04:13).
  • Quote: “The worst thing about it is the laughter... They all laughed. And no one laughed more than Ghislaine Maxwell.” (03:28)

Blanche and Maxwell—A Friendly Chat

• The nine-hour session over two days was described more as a casual, friendly conversation among friends than an investigative interview (04:33).
• Blanche, far from being adversarial, repeatedly assisted Maxwell’s answers, rarely challenged her, and steered conversations to digressions involving famous people (04:33–05:21).
  • Quote: “Todd Blanche reached out to help Ghislaine Maxwell in every way he possibly could in his very friendly conversation with her. He helped finish her answers when he could...” (04:33)
• There was a clear effort to insert as many famous names into the record as possible to dilute the impact of Trump’s association—a “smoke screen” tactic (05:34).

Maxwell's Lies and Denials

• Maxwell confidently denied all criminality, called all her victims liars, and received no pushback from Blanche (06:20).
  • Notable moment: Blanche’s refrain: “everything was great today. I think that we... it was very helpful and I appreciate you trying to be as complete as you can.” (06:53)
• She offered nonsensical or contradictory answers regarding finances, her relationship with Epstein, and her role in recruiting victims (08:03–09:09).
  • Quote: “I don't believe any of that was my money [referring to $30 million in payments from Epstein].” (09:09)

Testimony of Survivors—Firsthand Accounts

Anoushka DiGiorgio (“Kate” in Maxwell’s trial) (25:13–38:18)

• Reveals her identity publicly, having testified as “Kate.”
  • On Maxwell’s denials: “Ghislaine Maxwell was a liar when I met her, and she remains a liar. ...So I’m really not worried about Ghislaine Maxwell’s lies.” (26:29)
• Describes deeply traumatic abuse, victim-blaming, and the pain of having to repeat her story, only to see Maxwell call all witnesses liars.
• Stresses that true accountability lies in the response of government and society, not in Maxwell’s continued denials (28:19).
• Shares the terror of testifying publicly, harassment and threats she endured, and the difficult choice to use her trauma for a greater purpose—helping bring Maxwell to justice and now advocating in Washington for victim transparency (33:28–38:18).

Brad Edwards (Attorney for Survivors) (30:01–39:45)

• Bluntly rejects Maxwell's assertions that the prosecution was a conspiracy he invented. “It’s absurd, but I’ll wear it as a badge of honor.” (30:01)
• Notes the pattern: Epstein also tried to scapegoat him in 2009 (“Epstein sued me... and he apologized in open court in 2018.”).
• The Blanche/Maxwell conversation was “worthless at best,” serving as a platform for Maxwell to “spin fairy tales.” He offers, “If somebody wants the truth, let me take her deposition.” (31:57)
• Calls for bipartisan transparency in the Epstein files, redaction of victims’ names, and public reckoning for governmental failures to protect victims (38:55).
  • Quote: “There is no other side to this argument. ...Let the whole world see who was Jeffrey Epstein, who were his friends? Why was he protected? And why was he so much more important than the victims were?” (39:45)

Legal Analysis with Andrew Weissmann (41:45–46:29)

• Outlines how Maxwell was rewarded—immunity in conversation, a transfer to a more comfortable prison, and prospects of future release as part of apparent political bargain (41:45–45:21).
  • Quote: “If you are a victim... the idea that... the convicted person who has victimized you is treated with kid gloves and then given a reward—... is beyond cruel. It is... a slap in their face.” (42:29)
• Affirms the point: the outrage isn’t only what Maxwell said, but in the DOJ’s response and complicity (44:11–45:21).
• Warns of a political deal to ultimately grant Maxwell early release, with the only barrier being victims’ public advocacy and attention (45:21–45:59).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On the Interrogation’s Tone:
  “The worst thing about it is the laughter. ...In nine hours of... casual conversation... the single sickest reaction you could have in that discussion... was laughter. And they all did it.” — Lawrence O’Donnell (03:28)

• On Blanche’s Role:
  “You’d never know [Maxwell’s a predator] if you listened to Todd Blanche’s very, very, very friendly discussion with her. ...It was just what it sounds like... a pleasant discussion among friends.” — Lawrence O’Donnell (03:06, 04:33)

• On Maxwell’s Denials:
  “Ghislaine Maxwell was a liar when I met her, and she remains a liar.” — Anoushka DiGiorgio (26:29)

• Victim’s Courage:
  “It was absolutely terrifying...to be in the room speaking about things that are, frankly, humiliating, embarrassing things that you would never want to discuss... I was harassed, I was followed, I was threatened...” — Anoushka DiGiorgio (33:28)

• On DOJ Failure:
  “It is a disgrace to the Department of Justice. It is an affront to victims of sexual assault.” — Andrew Weissman (45:59)

• On Transparency:
  “There is no other side to this argument... show some unity and let the whole world see who was Jeffrey Epstein, who were his friends? Why was he protected? And why was he so much more important than the victims were?” — Brad Edwards (39:45)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------| | 00:58 | O’Donnell introduces the episode and context | | 03:28 | Detailed breakdown of the Blanche-Maxwell interview | | 06:20 | Maxwell’s sweeping denials and lack of challenge | | 09:09 | Maxwell claims $30M wasn’t her money | | 25:13 | Anoushka DiGiorgio reveals her identity, testimony | | 30:01 | Brad Edwards responds to Maxwell's accusations | | 33:28 | Anoushka describes testifying, trauma, and threats | | 38:18 | Testimony and transparency reforms in Congress | | 42:29 | Andrew Weissmann: DOJ’s handling and its cruelty | | 45:59 | Concerns over political deals and public response |

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Conclusion

Lawrence O’Donnell uses this episode to shine a spotlight on the disturbing nature of the so-called investigative sessions with Ghislaine Maxwell, especially the inappropriate camaraderie and laughter. The show provides direct survivor testimony, exposes how the Justice Department mishandled both process and optics for the benefit of politicians, and finishes with a call to action: Only transparency and genuine victim advocacy in government—and public vigilance—can counteract efforts to obscure truth and enable justice for survivors.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Last Word with Lawrence O' Donnell, who's back starts right now. Hey Lawrence, welcome back. Hey Jen. Thank you. You know, I will never forget the day, and I'm sure Aaron Sorkin will never forget the day in season one of the West Wing when White House press secretary Dede Myers told us that in the White House they call Friday take out the trash day, because that's the day late Friday afternoon. That's the day when you dump out stories in the White House that you're hoping get very little attention or try to suppress the attention by releasing them on Friday and they just get lost in the weekend media. And of course, as soon as Aaron Sorkin heard the phrase take out the trash day, that became the title of episode 13 in season 1, brilliantly written by Aaron, with Dede Myers, brilliant input that you could only get from a White House press secretary, invaluable perspective on how it all works. And so it was no surprise to me that when Donald Trump decided that it was time to release the very, very, very friendly discussion that his former criminal defense lawyer Todd Blanche had with Ghislaine Maxwell, that it would be a Friday afternoon. Of course it would be a Friday afternoon. And that's when they released that. And it got the news treatment that it did. And then of course, it got pushed around by a lot of other things that have come after that. But the Epstein files are very much back at the center of things in Washington and will be tomorrow. Our first guests tonight will be in Washington tomorrow telling the story of what Jeffrey Maxwell actually did to the real victims, who Ghislaine Maxwell completely ignored and lied about in her interview, so called interview with Todd Blanche. I can't Wait to watch.

[A]

And Ghislaine Maxwell deserves all of the criticism and criti. She is a predator, just as Epstein was.

[B]

And that's important to remind people of, as I'm sure you will.

[A]

Great to have you back, Lon.

[B]

You'd never know it if you listened to Todd Blanche's very, very, very friendly discussion with her. Just, it's really a stunning thing to listen to, as I did all the way through.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Well, I can't wait to hear. We've been waiting to hear all of.

[A]

The things that you can get off.

[B]

Your chest from being away.

[A]

So now we can tune in to see everything you have to say.

[B]

Thanks, Jen. Thank you.

[A]

Thanks, Lawrence.

[B]

Have a good show. Thank you. The worst thing about it is the laughter. That's the part that the news reports haven't told you about. There was a lot of laughter. They all laughed. And no one laughed more than Ghislaine Maxwell. In nine hours of what turned out to be casual conversation spread over a Thursday and a Friday in Florida, the single sickest reaction you could have in that discussion of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell's sex crimes was laughter. And they all did it. Ghislaine Maxwell laughed the most, joined by her three criminal defense lawyers. And their laughter was joined by the four people from the Trump Justice Department sitting in that room with a convicted sex trafficker, an indicted perjurer, and they laughed the day away with her two days in a row. But that's not in the transcript released by the Trump Justice Department on a Friday afternoon, because it is not a real transcript of what actually happened in that room. No court reporter, no stenographer was allowed in that room. And so this transcript that we have, it's not real. On page 215 of this first day's transcript, a woman who is being called the official transcriptionist says in writing that she was provided audio recording media. And so this is not a transcript of everything that was said in that room. This is a transcript only of what was recorded in that room. And the recording was given to someone to type it up. So we have no idea what was said in that room before an FBI agent pressed record, and we have no idea what was said in that room after an FBI agent pressed stop. But thanks to the recording that we do have, we can hear the laughter. Most court reporters will note laughter when it occurs in a court transcript or a deposition transcript, but the laughter is not included in the transcript that was released. And news organizations trying to quickly report to you the news that's in that transcript do not have the time to listen to the audio recording. That's nine hours. They can speed read the transcript much faster and they can search for key words in the transcript and deliver to you what they think is the news contained in that transcript as fast as they can. But there's a price to that speed because you don't find out about the laughter. The most perverse thing that you could possibly have done in that room was to fill that room with laughter, which Ghislaine Maxwell did repeatedly. Ghislaine Maxwell and Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer who appeared to be acting as Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer in that room, laughing about her memories and failure of memories about her decades of time spent with Jeffrey Epstein in which she described herself and her criminal co conspirator Jeffrey Epstein as friends with benefits. She was friends with a lot of other people besides Jeffrey Epstein, according to her. And Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer, Todd Blanche, now the Deputy Attorney General of the United States of America, desperately wanted to get as many of those names in the transcript as possible so that the name Donald Trump could be swimming in a sea of other well known names, including as many Kennedys as possible. Senator Ted Kennedy, who never met Jeffrey Epstein and died in 2009, was brought into the discussion by Todd Blanche, as was John F. Kennedy Jr. Who died in 1999 and never met Jeffrey Epstein. But Todd Blanche managed to drag John F. Kennedy Jr. Into this discussion, which was not an interview, was not a deposition. It was just what it sounds like when you listen to it, a pleasant discussion among friends. That's what it sounds like. Todd Blanche is friends with Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal defense lawyer. It was a very friendly chat. Todd Blanche reached out to help Ghislaine Maxwell in every way he possibly could in his very friendly conversation with her. He helped finish her answers when he could, leaving Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal defense lawyer no need to ever lean in to be protective of his client in any way when the got too tough because it never came close to being challenging in any way for Ghislaine Maxwell. Maxwell's criminal defense lawyer, David Marcus, was so relaxed with his personal friend Todd Blanche doing the questioning that when Ghislaine Maxwell mentioned an investment she claimed she made in Microsoft, her criminal defense lawyer thought that's the perfect time for him to throw in a joke which was, quote, don't charge her with insider trading. And that got a big laugh in the room because that's the kind of room it was. It was a joke. Legally, the whole thing was a joke from start to finish. And legally, it was a travesty from start to finish. Ghislaine Maxwell laughed easily and confidently when she spoke with awe about meeting John F. Kennedy Jr. And her awe was based entirely on on how handsome he was and how much she put it to Todd Blanche. She fancied JFK Jr. That was one of the many completely useless and inane and time wasting and disgraceful digressions in that friendly discussion that lasted nine hours and had less than one hour of relevant discussion to the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. Ghislaine Maxwell now says they're all lying. She received no challenge at all from Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer, now the deputy Attorney General, when she said that Ghislaine Maxwell said that every victim who testified in her criminal trial where she was convicted was lying and committing perjury. And Todd Blanche said at the end of a day of such lies by Ghislaine Maxw, everything was great today. Quote, everything was great today. I think that we it was very helpful and I appreciate you trying to be as complete as you can. I appreciate you trying to be as complete as you can complete. Why didn't he say honest? Why didn't he say truthful? Because even Todd Blanche knew he couldn't possibly get away with the suggestion that what Ghislaine Maxwell was, was honest. And you couldn't possibly even claim that it was complete. But complete was a safer word for him to use. Here's an answer and you can guess the question. 2015, 2016, 2017. That was an actual answer by Ghislaine Maxwell. The question was, when is the last time you spoke to Jeffrey Epstein? And the answer was 2015, 2016, 2017. She had no idea, according to her under oath convers. When's the last time you spoke with him, Ghislaine Maxwell? Maybe 2016, 2017. Maybe 2016-2015-2016-2017. In that area, I believe that is what Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer Todd Blanche calls complete. He let her get away with anything she wanted to get away with, including refusing to answer the simple question. When is the last time you spoke to Jeffrey Epstein? On the first day of the questioning and that friendly discussion, Ghislaine Maxwell said, I've never recruited a masseuse from Mar a Lago for that as far as I remember. And on the second day she changed that to say she had no memory of doing that. But considered it within the realm of possibility. And that's because Virginia Giuffre testified under oath that Ghislaine Maxwell recruited her for Jeffrey Epstein when she was in high school, working as an assistant on Donald Trump's payroll at the spa at Mar a Lago. Virginia Giuffre testified that Ghislaine Maxwell was in the room with her, in the room with her the first time she had sex with Jeffrey Epstein. Quote, they asked me to lick his nipples and give him oral sex. And Ghislaine Maxwell was doing the same things that she asked me to do for him, while touching me in my private areas as well. And then at the very end, they instructed me to get on top of Epstein. And that's how the night ended. She was asked why she went back, and she said, that answer is so complicated, I could have run. I should have run. I wish I ran. But fear was one fear of what happens if I piss these bad people off. I mean, I know they're powerful. You could listen to all nine hours of this very friendly discussion and wonder what it was all about, wonder why it was happening. Todd Blanche showed no prosecutorial interest of any kind in any other possible crimes. The only thing he seemed to come to Florida to hear from Ghislaine Maxwell is that Donald Trump never got a massage from one of Jeff Epstein's victims recruited by Ghislaine Maxwell. And Todd Blanche wanted to fill up the transcript with names of other famous people. That's it. Ghislaine Maxwell understood the mission from the start. To deliver famous names to help flood the Epstein zone with famous names in order to insulate one name in the Epstein files, Donald Trump. And so, on day two of her friendly conversation with Todd Blanche, she began by volunteering, quote, some more names did come to me in the night. Of course they did. Todd Blanche brought up the name Elon Musk. And sure enough, Elaine Maxwell said she met Elon Musk in a situation having nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein. But Todd Blanche managed to get Elon Musk's name in the Epstein files as some sort of Trumpian revenge for Elon Musk, saying that Donald Trump was in the Epstein files back when Elon Musk was having one of his fits about Donald Trump after leaving Elon Musk's disgraceful and destructive work in the Trump government. Todd Blanche got the Cuomo brothers in there, Andrew and Christopher, simply because at some point, Ghislaine Maxwell met them. Ghislaine Maxwell made one faux pas when she brought up without being questioned about him, Robert Kennedy Jr. Donald Trump's most deadly cabinet member. She testified that Bobby Kennedy, as she calls him, was very friendly with Jeffrey Epstein, unlike the Cuomo brothers and so many others who were needlessly mentioned in that discussion. The federal prosecutors who convicted Ghislaine Maxwell of sex trafficking showed the jury $30 million in bank transfers from Jeffrey Epstein to Ghislaine Maxwell. Todd Blanche spent a few minutes on the second day discussing the $30 million that the prosecutors said was Ghislaine Maxwell's reward for her participation in Jeffrey Epstein's sex and for recruiting the young girls who Jeffrey Epstein raped. Ghislaine Maxwell's responses to every question about the $30 million were nonsensical. When Todd Blanche asked her about a specific payment of $7.4 million in 2007, Ghislaine Maxwell said, I don't personally have any memory of receiving a check from him for $7 million. And that was good enough for Todd Blanche. That was the end of that. Ghislaine Maxwell tried to suggest that there was some kind of shell game going on with Jeffrey Epstein's money and that the $30 million transferred into her accounts under her control wasn't really her money. She said, I don't believe any of that was my money. And she said that after having been formally warned at the beginning of this friendly discussion that the one thing she's not allowed to do in the discussion is lie. Todd Blanche warned her that it's a crime to l federal prosecutor or to an FBI agent sitting at that table. And having heard that warning, Ghislaine Maxwell had the audacity to say, I don't believe any of that was my money. $30 million in her accounts. I don't believe any of that was my money. And you'll never guess what the tough Deputy Attorney General of the United States said in response to that. He said, yes, I understand that that is the official Trump Justice Department view of the $30 million that went from Jeffrey Epstein's accounts to Ghislaine Maxwell's accounts. The Trump Justice Department thinks whatever Ghislaine Maxwell says about it makes sense when not one word of it made any sense or sounded in any way anywhere close to truth. We discovered in this very friendly discussion that Todd Blanche has never been to Davos. Maxwell asked him, have you been to Davos? To which he said, no, I have not. Another in those crazy time wasting, irrelevant discussion diversions. And at one point, Todd Blanche asked Elaine Maxwell, why do you think that? And her answer Actually was my female intuition. And that was good enough for Todd Blanche. That was Todd Blanche accepting that from a convicted sex trafficker. Ghislaine Maxwell's worst lies, her ugliest lies, the perjury she committed in that room without any fear of being charged with perjury again by the Trump Justice Department. The worst of it were the lies she told about our first guests tonight. She blamed all of her problems on Brad Edwards, an attorney for the Epstein victims. Brad Edwards will join us tonight for the second time. When he joined us on this program earlier in the summer, Congress was watching when he advised members of Congress to subpoena the Epstein birthday book that the Wall Street Journal first reported on that contains a birthday note with Donald Trump's name on it. Congressman Ro Khanna was watching and he went to work. And so Congress has subpoenaed that book and Congress is going to hear tomorrow from some of the Epstein victims. Glenn Maxwell said under oath that Brad Edwards conspired to create this false criminal prosecution against her. Brad Edwards will respond to that in just a moment. She told Todd Blanche that she learned about her friends with benefits, Jeffrey Epstein's involvement with underage girls only when he got arrested. Never had any idea before that she actually told this lie, this blatant lie to a federal prosecutor, to Todd Blanche told it to his face and he accepted this. She said, I have no, no memory, no act of anything, of having seen anybody that resembles a young, a child, let's call it what it is at that house, giving him a massage at all. How about a 98 pound 17 year old girl? At Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal trial, a witness testified under oath under the pseudonym of Kate. That witness will join us here in a moment. At the trial, she testified that she was 17 years old when she met Ghislaine Maxwell. And Ghislaine Maxwell soon introduced her to her friend Jeffrey Epstein. And in her first encounter with Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell asked her to massage Jeffrey Epstein's feet and then his shoulder. And then Jeffrey Epstein got an important phone call and disappeared. A few weeks later, Ghislaine Maxwell called Kate and asked her to come to Epstein's house. House because a massage therapist who was supposed to show up had to cancel and Jeffrey desperately needed a massage and thought that her 17 year old hands were strong enough. As you listen to this passage of this victim's testimony, this witness's testimony under oath testimony from the trial, remember that Ghislaine Maxwell told Todd Blanche, I have no memory, no act of anything, of having seen anybody that resembles a young. A child, let's call it what it is, at that house, giving him a massage at all. Question if any photographs. What, if any photographs did you see in Epstein's house in Palm Beach? There were lots of photographs of young girls. Question what do you remember about those photographs? Answer I remember they were the young girls clothed or unclothed in the photographs? Unclothed. Where did you see those photographs? In Epstein's house in Palm Beach. They were in almost every room. Did there come a time that you were given clothing to wear when you were staying at Epstein's Palm beach house? Answer yes. What were you given to wear? I was given a schoolgirl outfit. Question can you please describe the schoolgirl outfit for the jury? It was a short. A short pleated skirt, white socks, white panties and a shirt. Question where did you find the schoolgirl outfit? On my bed. What, if anything, did Ghislaine say? I asked her what was happening with the. There were clothes in my room. And she said, I thought it would be fun for you to take Jeffrey his tea in this outfit. Question did you put on the schoolgirl outfit? Answer yes. Question why did you put on the schoolgirl outfit outfit? Answer I didn't know. I didn't know how to say no to that. I was. I didn't know anybody in Florida. I'd never been to Palm beach or Florida before. I had no idea even where the house was or how. And I wasn't sure if I said no, if I would have to leave or what kind of consequence there might be for not doing it. She was young, looking for 17. She weighed all of 95 pounds. Kate, do you remember the first time you saw Jeffrey Epstein naked? Yes. Do you remember who was standing next to you? Yes. Who was standing next to you? Ghislaine Maxwell. Question how old were you? Answer 17. Can you explain to the jury why you remember that so clearly? I remember it so clearly because I was terrified and frozen. Ghislaine Maxwell lied about all of that. Ghislaine Maxwell lied constantly and relentlessly for nine hours to two federal prosecutors and an FBI agent. And she was rewarded for her lies. She was immediately transferred to a prison camp closer to her family in Texas that has been called a country club by a former federal prison official. Todd Blanche admitted in his rambling and usually lost questioning that there was no prosecutorial mission for those two days in Florida. That friendly conversation that he called great. He actually said, I don't have a plan. I didn't know that I was coming here until this week. It was true that Todd Blanche had no prosecutorial plan in that room. It was true that Todd Blanche had no legitimate Justice Department plan or reason for being in that room. But the Trump plan to get Ghislaine Maxwell to say nice things about Donald Trump and to praise Donald Trump was what those two days in Florida were all about. Those two days of friendly conversation in which at the end of day one, after Ghislaine Maxwell had already delivered her praise of Donald Trump, Todd Blanche could say everything was great today, that that was the plan. Leading off our discussion tonight is Bradley Edwards, a Florida attorney who has represented over 200 victims of Jeffrey Epstein. He's author of the book Relentless My Fight for the Victims of Jeffrey Epstein. Also with us, Anousko DiGiorgio. She was one of four of Epstein's victims who testified against Ghislaine Maxwell under the pseudonym Kate Maxwell, introduced her to Jeffrey Epstein when she was 17. Anoushka, thank you very much for joining us tonight. What has changed for you since the trial when you felt compelled to testify under a pseudonym? Joining us tonight with a full reveal of your name at your choice.

[C]

Thank you, Lawrence, for having me. I think what's changed for me was not so much of a change that I participated in. By inference, many people seemed to guess and it was revealed who I was. So it sort of became a farce that I would remain anonymous when it seemed that many people on the Internet had already realized by inference who I was. And at that point, I thought the most beneficial thing that I could do was take ownership of that and see if I could be helpful.

[B]

And Anouska, I hope you haven't done anything like what I did, which was sit there and listen to all nine hours of Ghislaine Maxwell. But if you took in any of what she had to say, I can tell you that she denies everything. She denies everything that every witness against her said in her criminal trial, including every word that you said about her. She denies seeing anything inappropriate happen at any time. She denies that there was any hint of Jeffrey Epstein's interest in young girls. What is your response to what you're aware of? Ghislaine Maxwell now finally saying.

[C]

What Ghislaine Maxwell says is of no concern to me. Ghislaine Maxwell was a liar when I met her, and she remains a liar. And the people who know who I am know that I am telling the truth. The jury and the judge found my testimony to be compelling enough. And the testimony of my fellow survivors. So I'm really not, I'm not worried about Gillon Maxwell's lies. Of course, I'm a human being and I've been through many, many traumatic years of abuse at the hands of Ghislaine Maxwell and facilitated by Ghislaine Maxwell, witnessed by Ghislaine Maxwell with Jeffrey Epstein. And so it is unnerving that somebody could be so committed to pathologically lying for self interest.

[B]

And Anoushka, it's not just that she was allowed to lie, but when you actually, and I know Brad has gone through all this in the transcript and in the record, knows it's there, Todd Blanche was there to help her. Todd Blanche was helping her pull her way through all the various sections of the discussion. And the lightest part of the discussion, the part that Todd Blanche stayed away from the most, was the specifics of what Ghislaine Maxwell was actually accused of doing and convicted of doing by that jury, which unanimously accepted your testimony. And the judge, as you may know, in the sentencing hearing specifically cited your testimony and the witness's testimony as all being completely convincing in that courtroom. That seemed to all get ignored in that discussion with Todd Blanchard.

[C]

Yes. And of course, that's disappointing and it's difficult to hear, it's difficult to read, and it's emotionally re traumatizing also. But the fact is it doesn't matter what Ghislaine Maxwell says. It is far more important what is the response to what she's saying? So that's my concern. What is the response going to be? And I think we're all waiting to find out.

[B]

Brad, you were the. It turns out you, according to the Maxwell theory of the case, is you invented the whole thing. If there were no Brad Edwards, she would not be in prison tonight. There never would have been an indictment. There would have been nothing like that ever would have been brought against her. I'm just looking at my clock on my monitor and, Brad, I'm going to have to squeeze in a commercial break right here. And when we come back, I want you to pick up with what I know you're aware of what she said about you in the middle of her conversation with Todd Blanche. She talked about you almost as much as she talked about Jeffrey Epstein. We're going to be right back with Brad Edwards and a newspaper DiGiorgio. We'll be right back after this break. We're back with Brad Edwards, an attorney for Epstein survivors, and Anoushka DiGiorgio, who was a witness for the prosecution in the Criminal trial of Ghislaine Maxwell, where Ghislaine Maxwell was convicted as an Epstein co conspirator of sex trafficking and sentenced to 20 years in federal prison. Brad Edwards, in her conversation with Todd Blanche, Ghislaine Maxwell blamed the whole thing on you, as I'm sure you have read. What is your response to that?

[D]

It's absurd, but I'll wear it as a badge of honor. I don't know if you remember this from the last time we spoke, but there was a time in 2009 when Jeffrey Epstein also sued me and blamed the whole thing on me, as if I made everything up that time and I had to sue him back and ultimately won and he apologized in open court in a very, very clear, open apology to me in 2018. And here we go. We've given a platform to somebody who was already indicted for perjury on this exact same subject and the best she can come up with is, I made all of this up again. All I do is tell the truth, put a case together and make sure that we stick with the victims and bring justice to a situation. Not caring at all about how rich somebody is, how powerful they are. Those things should be immaterial. This is a bipartisan issue and I stood by the victims. Against Jeffrey Epstein and Gillian Maxwell the same. The truth came out. She doesn't like it. She's in prison, where she deserves to be, and she got an interview that was worthless at best, where she got to say whatever she wanted to because she was talking to somebody. Not disparaging Mr. Blanche, but she was talking to somebody who just didn't know anything about the case. So she was able to spin fairy tales one after another after another. It was total rubbish in her words.

[B]

Just to clarify, I am disparaging Mr. Blanche and the very fact that he doesn't know anything about the case is the reason why he should not have been in that room, along with many other reasons why he shouldn't have been in that room. But Brad, what do you think are the important points about that discussion? I'm calling it a discussion. They're calling it an interview. Very friendly discussion. What are the important points you think should be highlighted from that discussion?

[D]

There aren't many important points. I mean, it was very self serving. The portions that I read and I didn't go and read nine hours of anything. I could tell right away that she was trying to curry favor and that she was saying things that even matched up on a timeline of reality. Timeline with evidence made absolutely no sense. And could be disproven immediately. If somebody wants to hear her testimony and want somebody to keep her in line, let me go take her deposition. There's nobody that knows the case better than me. You want to bring her before a court, I'll gladly take her deposition and twist her in. So many lies, she'll never get out of it. If somebody really cares about the truth, fine. Let me know the day. Let her know the day, and we'll have it out. Until then, I don't think anybody should give her any traction whatsoever with that gratuitous interview that she was able to give.

[B]

Anoushka, I know you're going to be speaking in Washington tomorrow along with other victims of Jeffrey Epstein, but you're one of the four who testified, testified in federal court against Ghislaine Maxwell, testified under oath. Your testimony was evaluated by a jury under oath, found to be completely credible, also by the federal judge in the case who commented on it during sentencing. What was it like for you in that courtroom to be sitting there in that courtroom with Ghislaine Maxwell in the room with you as you delivered that testimony money?

[C]

It was absolutely terrifying. I hadn't seen Ghislain Maxwell for many years. It was difficult for me to even look at pictures of Ghislaine Maxwell or Jeffrey Epstein without flinching. Not only was it terrifying to be in the room speaking about things that are, frankly, humiliating, embarrassing things that you would never want to discuss in front of another person, let alone discuss in front of a group of strangers, but it was also terrifying leading up to the trial because I was harassed, I was followed, I was threatened, and all kinds of lies and stories were made up about me to disparage me and to discourage me from testifying.

[B]

Anoushka, we're going to put in a little one more commercial break here. When we come back, I'd just like to ask you why you decided to continue and go on with the testimony, given how much fear and how intimidating that whole process was. We're going to take a commercial break here and we'll be right back with Brad Edwards and Anoushka DiGiorgio. We'll be right back.

[A]

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[D]

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[B]

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[B]

We'Re back with Brad Edwards, an attorney for Epstein survivors and Anouska DiGiorgio who was a witness for the prosecution in the criminal trial of Ghislaine Maxwell. Anoushka was a victim of Jeffrey Epstein when she was 17 years old. Maxwell was convicted as a result of Anoushka's testimony and other witnesses testimony as a sex trafficker and sentenced to 20 years in prison. Brad Anoushka, I'm sorry, I wanted to go back to you on this. The question of coming forward and testifying in a case like this. There were only four of you who testified in Ghislaine Maxwell's trial. There were others presumably who could have who absolutely didn't want to do that and shied away from doing that. No fault to that. It's understandable. What was it like for you to make that decision in the face of the fear that you were feeling and now to stay with it and step up again in Washington tomorrow.

[C]

So I think that's a really good question. And one of the facts that I think is little understood is when you're in an indictment, it's not something you volunteer for. It's something that I found out on the same day that everybody else found out. I was called in the morning and told that I was in the indictment. I didn't even understand what that meant. And the truth was it wasn't a request. It was something that I was already included in. So I then had the choice whether I would participate in a collaborative way with the government. And I think that's where I had to decide. I'd already experienced the pain. I'd already lived through things. So would I transform that pain into some kind of purpose and into helping hold Ghislaine Maxwell accountable not just for myself, but for the many, many other victims?

[B]

And tomorrow, Anouska, as you go public again, this time in Washington with Congress, what are you hoping to accomplish tomorrow?

[C]

Tomorrow I'm very much hoping that we get to plead with, implore Congress to pass the bill for transparency on all the files so that we can understand not only the public, not only all other parties involved, but also so that we as survivors can understand all the different pieces. Because for many survivors, we actually don't have the files on ourselves.

[B]

Brad, what do you think the survivors are owed by their government tomorrow?

[D]

Well, we did meet with the House Oversight Committee today and they apologized for the mistreatment of the victims. And I think that that needs to be more public and loud and clear is an apology for the many years of the victims having to suffer in part because the government failed to stand up for and really let him down. And at this point, it's a time to make up for it. This is pretty easy. It should be a bipartisan issue. Let all of the files come out. There should be pure transparency. Redact the victims names because you don't want to re victimize anyone else. But there is no other side to this argument. That's the one thing in Washington, people should get along, be on the same side, show some unity and let the whole world see who was Jeffrey Epstein, who were his friends? Why was he protected? And why was he so much more important than the victims were?

[B]

Attorney Brad Edwards, thank you very much for joining us tonight. And Anoushka Togiorgio, thank you very much for illuminating this situation for us the way you have. We are all very sorry for what you've suffered that has brought you here tonight. And I wish it could be for some other reason. But thank you very much for what you've helped us understand tonight.

[D]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[B]

Thanks again.

[C]

Thank you. Thank you, Lawrence.

[B]

Thank you. Andrew Weissman will join us next.

[A]

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[D]

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[B]

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[B]

Here is the first thing that Todd Blanche said directly to Ghislaine Maxwell. Whatever you talk about today, you have what's called immunity. So that means that the words that you say today we cannot use against you in a case in chief if we were to ever bring one. Okay, Ghislaine Maxwell, thank you. Joining us now, Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel and MSNBC legal analyst. Andrew, that thank you seems really appropriate for the gift she was given there right at the beginning.

[E]

Well, let's just remember that as a reward after these two days, she was moved to a camp. If you are a victim, the idea that somebody who has abused you, who had the ability to testify at trial and chose not to a jury has credited you. The judge has credited you. And now the victimizer, the convicted person who has victimized you is treated with kid gloves and then given a reward. When you are in the Department of Justice, the victim who you just had on is the reason that is why you go into the government to do this is to vindicate their rights. The idea that you are doing something that is antithetical to that, that is so gross and abuse is such a slap in their face is, is just. It is beyond cruel. It is. You just don't understand what makes up that kind of person.

[B]

I spent nine hours trying to find a legal purpose to this exercise. And there's a spot in the discussion, as you know, where Todd Blanch basically says, I don't have a plan. I didn't know I was going to be doing this until this week. I've never seen a lawyer with less of a plan. And even the way it all unfolds, it's such a ramble. He apologizes, time, time again, for being all over the place. He doesn't know the case. And all I could find, as I said before, is he just wants to get a bunch of pages with other famous names in it to bury the Donald Trump name in the middle of all of this.

[E]

And to have her say, in addition to that, that I don't have sort of direct evidence with respect to Donald Trump, with no effort at all to do even the most gentle cross examination. But let's just remember, you could have started with, this is a woman who's denying that she is guilty of anything. And that means that she is saying every single person lied and she is denying culpability. So why are we supposed to believe her when she says anything about anybody else? Like she says, Jeffrey Epstein, she says is not guilty, she is not guilty. Who cares then what she has to say about Donald Trump or anyone else? It's just not a credible source. And I think your last segment where the victim said, the real issue here is not what Ghislaine Maxwell said, it's really about the Department of Justice. It is the reaction to this that's really the take home here and is really the thing that's sort of a lasting consequence is this sort of callousness with respect to true victims and what they're hiding.

[B]

So deal number one with Ghislaine Maxwell was we're giving you immunity and we're going to ask you questions about Donald Trump and you're going to tell and we know what you're going to say. Deal number two is, oh, we really liked the way it went. Todd Blanche says it was great. He says that on the record. Therefore, we're sending you to the camp. And obviously the end point of the deal is you will get out of jail. On the final day of the Trump presidency. Presidency or after the next presidential election. So it won't harm J.D. vance's chances in the election. That deal is coming. And the only thing standing between that deal, the get out of jail are the victims that we're going to hear tomorrow.

[E]

And the victim who we heard tonight is public pressure. That's absolutely right. It is a disgrace to the Department of Justice. It is an affront to victims of sexual assault. And, you know, kudos in a small way to Congress actually giving a forum and the fortitude of victims to speak up at this moment, which again, cannot be easy.

[B]

Andrew Weissman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[A]

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