Lawrence: The Trump-Republican budget bill is the work of 'sadistic zombies'

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell Episode: Lawrence: The Trump-Republican Budget Bill is the Work of 'Sadistic Zombies'
Release Date: May 22, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves deep into the contentious Republican budget bill, sharply criticizing its impact on American social programs and economic policies. Drawing upon insights from esteemed guests, including Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman and former USAID official Dr. Atul Gawande, O'Donnell unpacks the multifaceted repercussions of current political maneuvers on both domestic and international fronts.

The Republican Budget Bill: A Critique of Cruelty and Inefficacy

Lawrence O'Donnell launches the discussion by denouncing the Republican budget bill, coining the term "sadistic zombies" to describe Donald Trump and congressional Republicans spearheading the legislation. He emphasizes the bill's regressive nature, highlighting significant tax cuts for the wealthy juxtaposed with severe cuts to vital social programs.

Lawrence O'Donnell [02:15]: "Professors Krugman calls zombies, sadistic zombies. They are on track to enact a hugely regressive budget. Big tax giveaways to the wealthy combined with cruel cuts in programs that serve lower-income Americans."

O'Donnell details how the budget bill threatens Medicaid, Medicare, and food assistance programs, ultimately imposing a heavier tax burden on everyday Americans while favoring billionaires like Elon Musk.

Interview with Senator Adam Schiff: Exposing the Budget’s Flaws

Senator Adam Schiff of California joins the program to shed light on the budget bill's detrimental effects on healthcare programs. He confirms alarming projections from the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) indicating a $535 billion cut to Medicare, the largest in its history.

Senator Adam Schiff [12:22]: "The CBO confirms a $535 billion cut to Medicare. This is the biggest cut to Medicare in the history of the program."

Schiff criticizes the Republican Congress for reneging on promises and exploiting procedural maneuvers to pass harmful legislation without adequate oversight or transparency.

Discussion with Paul Krugman: The Depth of the Budget’s Damage

Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman joins the conversation to provide an expert analysis of the budget bill's economic implications. Krugman contrasts the current bill with previous Republican initiatives, highlighting how the latest approach is more intertwined and inherently more destructive.

Paul Krugman [26:25]: "Now you have a tax bill that is overwhelmingly just for the top 0.1% of the population combined with truly savage cuts primarily to Medicaid, also to food stamps. We're ripping up the social safety net."

Krugman elaborates on the ineffectiveness of proposed work requirements for Medicaid, labeling them as "zombie ideas" that have consistently failed to achieve their intended outcomes.

Paul Krugman [27:54]: "A zombie idea is something that should be dead, that's been proved wrong again and again and gets its seat still keeps on shambling along, eating people's brains."

The Impact of Trump's Economic Policies on American Consumers and Businesses

O'Donnell and Krugman discuss the ramifications of Donald Trump's trade policies, particularly the imposition of tariffs on consumer goods. Target’s decision to cut its sales outlook serves as a case study for the broader economic fallout.

Paul Krugman [34:51]: "Americans are going to pay the tariffs. It's not going to be the Chinese. It's going to hit places like Target and Walmart, making everyday essentials significantly more expensive."

Krugman warns that such tariffs not only burden consumers but also stifle genuine job creation in America, contradicting the administration's promises to boost manufacturing.

Interview with Dr. Atul Gawande: The Human Cost of Budget Cuts Abroad

Dr. Atul Gawande, former assistant administrator for global health at USAID, provides a harrowing account of the global consequences stemming from budget cuts. Operating from Nairobi, Kenya, Dr. Gawande details the dire impact on food and medical aid, exacerbating malnutrition and disease in vulnerable populations.

Dr. Atul Gawande [40:23]: "The estimates are that from malnutrition alone, it's over 50,000 malnutrition deaths for children thus far. Even bigger, an estimated 100,000 pneumonia and diarrheal deaths."

He criticizes Elon Musk's interference in humanitarian aid, accusing him of undermining decades-long USAID efforts to support needy populations, both internationally and domestically.

Dr. Atul Gawande [42:09]: "We're seeing wards of malnourished children... The cuts have gone to CDC, to NIH, to our capacity to do preventive HIV escalation across the board."

Tragedy at the Brooklyn Bridge: A Reflection on Resilience

In the latter part of the episode, O'Donnell recounts a tragic accident involving a Mexican Navy ship that collided with the Brooklyn Bridge, resulting in the deaths of two sailors. Drawing parallels to a 1904 disaster, he underscores the unwavering resilience and communal spirit of New Yorkers in the face of tragedy.

Lawrence O'Donnell [47:45]: "Most of the dozens of people on the dock that day after the tragedy... were as much of a New Yorker as anyone else."

The narration emphasizes the city's enduring spirit and the diverse fabric of its inhabitants, highlighting a poignant moment of unity and mourning.

Conclusion

Lawrence O'Donnell wraps up the episode by highlighting the interconnectedness of domestic budgetary decisions and their far-reaching global impacts. He calls for accountability and a reevaluation of policies that prioritize the wealthy at the expense of the vulnerable, both within the United States and abroad.

This episode of The Last Word offers a thorough and critical examination of the current Republican budget bill, its implications for American social programs, and the broader economic and humanitarian consequences of prevailing political strategies. With expert insights and heartfelt narratives, O'Donnell provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the challenges facing the nation today.

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Notable Quotes:

• Lawrence O'Donnell [12:22]: "The CBO confirms a $535 billion cut to Medicare. This is the biggest cut to Medicare in the history of the program."

• Senator Adam Schiff [12:22]: "The CBO confirms a $535 billion cut to Medicare. This is the biggest cut to Medicare in the history of the program."

• Paul Krugman [26:25]: "Now you have a tax bill that is overwhelmingly just for the top 0.1% of the population combined with truly savage cuts primarily to Medicaid, also to food stamps. We're ripping up the social safety net."

• Paul Krugman [27:54]: "A zombie idea is something that should be dead, that's been proved wrong again and again and gets its seat still keeps on shambling along, eating people's brains."

• Dr. Atul Gawande [40:23]: "The estimates are that from malnutrition alone, it's over 50,000 malnutrition deaths for children thus far. Even bigger, an estimated 100,000 pneumonia and diarrheal deaths."

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For more insightful discussions and in-depth analysis, stay tuned to The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell every weeknight.

Transcript

[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there everyone in podcast land. I just wanted to thank you all for listening and telling your friends about our little podcast. Let's talk off camera with me, Kelly Ripa. I know there are millions of podcasts out there, so I really appreciate you giving us a listen. There are so many gems from season one from Matthew McConaughey disclosing that he and Woody Harrelson might be brothers to Salma Hayek telling us about the argument that started her friendship with Prince. Hope you enjoy season one and stay tuned for a bigger and better season two.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The last word with Lawrence o' Donnell starts right now. Hey, Lawrence. Hey, Jen. It seems like forgetting his real job is Donald Trump's thing. It's Evergreen. It's not the first time. Not the first time, Jen. Later in this hour, I'm going to talk about what I did on Sunday, the morning after that Mexican Navy sailing ship had that horrible and fatal accident for two sailors at the Brooklyn Bridge. I just, I walked down to the east river and didn't know where the ship was, but found it on the east side, right, right on the border of the Lower east side in Chinatown. And it was a very moving scene there. And I'm gonna talk about what it meant, what it means for New Yorkers, what it means to be a real New Yorker. It was all on display there in the aftermath of another tragedy in New York, which New York does know how to respond to. Sounds incredibly powerful. I always love hearing about your walk around. You observe quite a lot. I'll be watching as you talk about it. Thanks, Jim. Thank you. Well, sadistic zombies is not the kind of phrase you expect from Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman, who will be joining our program this evening. Professor Krugman is a former columnist for the New York Times whose invaluable writing now appears on Substack, where everyone is can and who can should absolutely make an effort to read it and learn, read it and learn seems to be something Donald Trump has never been able to do. And the Republicans he dominates in Congress seem to have the same deficiency. The cruelty of the budget bill designed by Donald Trump and the Republican Congress has provoked the mild mannered Professor Krugman, not known for rhetorical excess, to call Donald Trump and the Republican Congress sadistic zombies. And I will take the liberty during this hour to extend Professor Krugman's term to include the Trump ally who actually might be the most sadistic of all, Elon Musk, into the group of sadistic zombies now trying to control our governing and in Elon Musk's case, trying to control this starving little girl in a refugee camp near South Sudan, because Elon Musk believes that she, the girl you're looking at right there, Elon Musk believes that she has received too much free food from you, too much free food from the United States of America. The United States of America has been producing more food than we can consume for more than a century now. And we have been sending food aid around the world for almost 200 years, as we did during the Irish Famine in 1847. Former USAID official Dr. Atul Gawande is in Africa tonight where he has seen what these sadistic zombies have done to that little girl and to people who need the HIV care that the United States has been supplying, thanks to a program created by Republican President George W. Bush, but no more. Dr. Atul Gawande will join us later in this hour. The sadistic zombies are trying to take food aid away from people here in the United States who need food aid. They're trying to take that away from people in their budget bill. They are trying to take health care away from the people who earn the least amount of money in this country. They are trying to take health care away from Medicaid recipients. They are trying to give the most massive tax cut in history to Elon Musk and other billionaires while still maintaining a much heavier tax burden on many taxpayers and on working couples, for example, who are very well paid, who can no longer deduct all of their state and local taxes on their federal tax returns because Donald Trump and the Republicans eliminated the possibility of deducting all of your state and local taxes from your federal tax returns, which we've all been able to do during our entire lives. And they did that during the first Trump presidency. And so Donald Trump actually increased significantly the tax burden on those taxpayers who ended up paying much more in their overall tax burden, even though their federal income tax rate was technically and slightly reduced. And those taxpayers are not happy. Those taxpayers live in Long Island. Some of them voted for Republican members of the House who are now betraying their promise to restore those taxpayers ability to fully deduct their state and local taxes like they did their entire lives, until Donald Trump took that away from them and in effect, raised their tax bills enormously. And that's one of the problems with the Republican tax bill, is how do you get those Republican House members in New York and California who lied about this in their campaign saying they were going to fix this? How do you get them to vote for that bill and betray their voters? They promised they would fix that problem for them. The Republican House leadership is pushing forward to try to pass a bill for a president who has no idea what he is doing, a president who has no idea how the American economy and the global economy actually work. And finally, Donald Trump's overwhelming stupidity about all of that has finally, finally, finally broken through to American voters. With now 66% disapproving tonight of how Donald Trump is dealing with inflation and the cost of living, the reason so many voters voted for him, 63% disapprove of Donald Trump's tariffs, all of which, by the way, are illegal. And 58% disapprove of how Donald Trump is handling economic, economic issues generally. The utterly fraudulent notion that the successful businessman Donald Trump was very good at the economic side of the presidency has evaporated. And it did evaporate, even before Donald Trump reached the 100 day mark of this presidency. And now with the most recent polling right now in May, even after Donald Trump has retreated from his most inane illegal tariffs, American voters are not quickly forgiving him for his tariff madness that crashed the stock market and scared them for very good reason. And the tariff madness that they will still suffer the next time they go into a Target or any other store. And so casting a vote for policies advocated by a popular president is one thing, but casting a vote on economic policy and a budget for a president who two thirds of the country believes does not know what he is doing on economic policy is something that could only be done by people who are not thinking about what they are doing. People who are approaching the Republican budget process, like what Paul Krugman calls zombies, sadistic zombies. And if they win, if the sadistic zombies win, they will lose. If the Republicans win the vote in the House of Representatives, they might then lose the vote in the United States Senate and throw the Republican Congress into utter chaos for the rest of the year. But if they win the vote on this budget bill in the House and then they win a vote in the Senate on the same budget bill, they will then have the booby prize of having passed the cruelest budget bill ever passed in American history and signed into law by the cruelest president. And they will take that cruelty with them into the next congressional election and see how it goes. See if those 66% who oppose what Donald Trump is doing now will thank them next November for helping visit that cruelty upon them or upon their neighbors or upon their grandmothers. Every voter in the next congressional election is going to know that Donald Trump lied when he said this.

[Adam Schiff]

We're cutting three waste, fraud and abuse.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We're not changing Medicaid and we're not changing Medicare and we're not changing Social Security. Donald Trump is changing Medicaid and the Republican Congress is helping Donald Trump change Medicaid. And as we learned in breaking news on this program 24 hours ago, Donald Trump is changing Medicare. Cutting Medicare. And that is exactly what House Republicans are determined to do. They are going to vote to cut Medicare in this bill. Last night at this hour, the top Democrat on the House Budget Committee, Brendan Boyle, joined us and brought the breaking news directly from the Congressional Budget Office, who had just informed Congressman Boyle that the Republican budget bill would trigger cuts in Medicare. And even though Medicare is not mentioned in the Republican budget bill, Congressman Boyle explained, as I interpreted at the time, that it was the interaction of the Medicaid cuts and the rest of the budget bill that would force, in effect, these cuts on Medicare. Three hours later, Congressman Boyle was officially delivering that news to the House Rules Committee, which began a hearing in the middle of the night last night. That is a necessary procedural step before bringing the budget bill to the floor of the House for a vote by the full House of Representatives. That hearing got underway at 1:20am and the top Democrat on that committee, the Rules committee, Congressman Jim McGovern, began his participation in that hearing. This.

[Jim McGovern]

I've got a simple question. What the hell are Republicans so afraid of? What the hell are you so scared of that you guys are holding this hearing at one o' clock in the morning? It's a simple question that speaks to the heart of what's going on here and one that I'm going to keep on asking. If Republicans are so proud of what is in this bill, then why are you trying to ram it through in the dead of night?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So after Congressman Brendan Boyle broke the news about the $500 billion cut to Medicare on this program last night, the biggest cut to Medicare in the history of the Medicare program. It was no surprise in that hearing room at 2:15am When Congressman Boyle testified to the committee.

[Jim McGovern]

As you know, statutory paygo, which stands for pay as you go, is a law that requires tax cuts and spending increases to be offset, meaning that they do not add to the deficit. If at the end of the year congressional legislation collectively violates paygo, those deficit effects trigger across the board cuts to programs like Medicare. Does this bill trigger statutory paygo?

[Brendan Boyle]

Yes, and it's not me saying it. It is the Congressional Budget Office confirming it as of a couple hours ago. And look, this is really the breaking news because when the Budget committee kicked off this process approximately three months ago, there was a commitment by President Trump that there would be no Medicare cuts in this piece of legislation. And indeed, over the last several months, there's been no discussion of Medicare at all. There has been of Medicaid, but not of Medicare. Well, here we are tonight because as you explained, because of the size of the deficits, because of the pay go or pay as you go act, that would trigger sequestration of Medicare and it would total over $500 billion. The official figure that CBO confirms is $535 billion in cuts to Medicare.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So the Rules Committee got that news, breaking news, as the congressman called it, formally presented to them about four hours after you got it here on this program from Congressman Boyle. And so Donald Trump is cutting Medicaid after promising not to, and he's cutting Medicare after promising not to. And while he's doing that exactly at the same time he's doing that, he is taking a free plane from a Middle Eastern dictator who funds Hamas, while Donald Trump is cutting your Medicaid or your Medicare or your grandmother's Medicaid. And Medicare, Medicaid is the single largest payer to nursing homes in America. And Donald Trump is cutting that program. Medicaid is the single largest provider of health care coverage for poor children and poor babies in America. And Donald Trump is cutting that funding. And while he's doing it, he's taking a free plane from a dictator who was trying to sell that plane, which is 13 years old and not good enough for the dictator and couldn't find a buyer. And so instead the dictator decided he'd rather have Donald Trump owe him. It helped that there were absolutely no buyers for that 13 year old 747 on the used plane market these days. The listed value of that used plane is $400 million, which is much, much less than that same dictator has given to Hamas and gave to Hamas before Hamas's October 7th attack on Israel. The Defense Department, in full participation in the international scheme to violate the Constitution and give Donald Trump a free plane, formally accepted the free 747 from the dictator of Qatar today. And now Donald Trump is the first president in history to try to have three, count them, three Air Force ones. We've always had two identical Air Force One aircraft ready to take the president anywhere in the world. To make sure an Air Force One is always ready, there have to be two planes so that there's a backup plane in case one plane has a problem. And now Donald Trump wants a third Air Force One at a massive cost to taxpayers. And that's the part where this scheme might just break down. The country has never needed a third Air Force One. The country has never paid a nickel to have a third Air Force One. Congress has never paid a nickel for a third Air Force One. And Congress will have to pay for that third Air Force One to be converted into a usable Air Force One, which is estimated to cost at least a billion dollars. Now, Donald Trump's going to pay a billion dollars of your money to have a dictator's so called flying palace converted into a usable Air Force One. But Congress controls that billion dollars. He's going to have to come to Congress for that money. It is very unlikely he's going to get that money even from the sadistic zombies. Donald Trump wants to do all this while Boeing is building two new versions of Air Force One that were ordered while Donald Trump was president the first time. This is so perfectly Trumpian. This is Donald Trump's Marie Antoinette moment of obliviousness to the suffering he is causing while Donald Antoinette dreams of the cake and McDonald's junk food he will have on the free plane that the dictator has given him, so that Donald Trump will be able to use that plane as his personal plane after his presidency. Because that's the scheme. The scheme is for Donald Trump's Defense Department to deliver that plane as a gift to Donald Trump's presidential library when Donald Trump is leaving office, so that Donald Trump will have full custody of a former dictator's palatial 747 to fly wherever Donald Trump wants to for the rest of his life. That is the scheme. And that scheme is the work of sadistic zombies. Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Senator Adam Schoof of California. He serves on the Senate Judiciary Committee, Agriculture Committee, and Small Business Committee. Senator Schiff, I know you have been studying this transfer of this plane. Apparently, it has been officially transferred or is very close to being officially transferred to the Defense Department. So that's stage one of the scheme. If the Defense Department, therefore, the United States government, takes ownership of it. But getting that ownership transferred over to Donald Trump eventually is a whole different layer of the scheme.

[Adam Schiff]

Well, it is. And the emoluments clause, the Constitution is quite clear. Presidents of the United States, like any other person in public office, are prohibited from getting any present from any foreign state unless Congress approves. And obviously we haven't approved. We will not approve. There's nothing to approve here. It is all to be shunned. And the reason that's in the Constitution is we want the American president to be looking out for the American people. We don't want them paying back favors to foreign leaders or foreign dictators or foreign kings or princes or emirs. Now, you can imagine in the future, Lawrence, if there is some decision the president of the United States makes that is beneficial to the nation of Qatar, the American people are going to have to wonder, why is he doing this? Is this really in our interest or is this payback for that plane? And there are other problems as well. This gets to your Marie Antoinette metaphor, and that is, while Americans are facing higher and higher fares to get on a plane to visit their family or for work, while Americans are having smaller and smaller space for their legs on an airplane, well, Americans are having to pay more and more for their luggage fees, while you're required to take less and less onto an airplane for your overhead compartment. While Americans are dealing with those problems, Donald Trump is dissatisfied with the appointments on his Air Force One. That's what he's focused on. While there are crashes at airports, while there are near misses, while radar is going down, while there are blackouts, your president, the President of the United States, fellow Americans, is focused on getting a $400 million gift from Qatar that he can use once it's laundered through the Defense Department. So much wrong with all of this.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So we have air traffic controllers who desperately need upgraded equipment. And Donald Trump wants to spend an additional $135 million a year just on the maintenance of a new Air Force One. The New York Times reporting that each Air force1 costs $135 million a year just to maintain. And now Donald Trump wants a third to add that expense to that, as you say, as at the very same time, they are doing these sadistic budget cuts that affect not just Starving children in Africa, but children in the United States who also nutritional aid.

[Adam Schiff]

Well, you know, Lawrence, it is really a challenge to be only a two Air Force One president. I mean, we need to have a little sympathy here. He's used to all the gold finishings and whatever. And to have a plane that doesn't have that is really quite an imposition on the president. When he's not out playing golf, as he does just about one out of every four days, he likes to ride around in a nice aircraft. So. But on a serious note, as you were just discussing, they're making cuts to people's health care. They're saying investing in people's health is wasteful, it's abusive. But no. Getting a third Air Force One, that's a good investment. If there were really an entity as Doge pretends to be trying to cut out waste and abuse in the federal government, they would start with this airplane. There would be no question that this is a terrible investment for the United States. There are far cheaper ways to move the president around, more secure ways than having to retrofit, debug, essentially dismantle this aircraft and reassemble it. But of course, what this is all about, Lawrence, is not about what aircraft he's going to use while president, it's about what aircraft he's going to own when he's the former president.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Exactly. Senator Adam Schiff, thank you very much for starting off our discussions tonight.

[Adam Schiff]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Coming up, our next guest says this about Donald Trump's budget bill. It's hard to avoid the sense that the counterproductive viciousness is actually the point. That's Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman, who will join us next.

[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there, everyone in podcast land. I just wanted to thank you all for listening and telling your friends about our little podcast. Let's talk off camera with me, Kelly Ripa. I know there are millions of podcasts out there, so I really appreciate you giving us a listen. There are so many gems from season one from Matthew McConaughey disclosing that he and Woody Harrelson might be brothers to Salma Hayek Taylor, telling us about the argument that started her friendship with Prince. Hope you enjoy season one and stay tuned for a bigger and better season two.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Sadistic Zombies that is how Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman is describing Donald Trump and congressional Republicans. He writes, republicans in Congress taking their marching orders from Donald Trump are on track to enact a hugely regressive budget. Big tax giveaways to the wealthy combined with cruel cuts in programs that serve lower income Americans. But this reconciliation bill is different in both degree and kind from what we've seen before. Its cruelty is exceptional even by recent right wing standards. Furthermore, the way that cruelty will be implemented is notable for its reliance on claims we know aren't true and policies we know won't work. What some of us call zombie ideas. And it's hard to avoid the sense that the counterproductive viciousness is actually the point. Think of what we're seeing as the attack of the sadistic zombies. Joining us now is Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman. He is Distinguished professor at the City University of New York's Graduate center and a former New York Times columnist whose writing now appears on Substack. Professor Krugman, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Let's begin with what is the difference between this latest version of Republican budget bill compared to the last Republican budget bills we saw in the previous Trump presidency?

[Paul Krugman]

Well, first of all, last time Trump passed a tax cut, which was a very Republican tax cut, big cuts for the rich, crumbs for people further down the scale, but separately tried to kill the Affordable Error Affordable Care Act. So the, the damage to health care was a separate vote which failed. So that didn't go through. So at least the tax bill, although it was money coming from nothing, it was deficit spending. It looked like it was doing people a favor. Now it's tied together. Now you have a tax bill that is overwhelmingly just for the top 0.1% of the population combined with truly savage cuts primarily to Medicaid, also to food stamps. So basically the social safety net, we're ripping up the social safety net. We're leading to a lot of people being impoverished, probably quite a few people dying because of lack of aid, all in the interest of somewhat reducing the explosion of the deficit that comes from cutting taxes on the rich.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

One of the arguments that Republicans make is we're not cutting Medicaid. They'll accept that phrasing. They say we're just making it work better. For example, imposing work requirements on people to be able to be able to enroll in Medicaid.

[Paul Krugman]

Okay, and this is when I talk about zombie ideas. A zombie idea is something that should be dead, that's been proved wrong again and again and get its seat still keeps on shambling along, eating people's brains. We've been through this many times. There are essentially no people, able bodied adults who could be working, who are on Medicaid and not working. There just is nothing. The work requirement is not going to get anybody who isn't working to work. There's a handful of people who on paper might be working in art, but it's a tiny, tiny at 3% of the total Medicaid rolls. And almost surely there are special circumstances there. So this just doesn't happen. We know that work requirements don't actually make people work because they already are. The US US Benefits are too small for people to just, you know, live on the dole. You can't do that in, in 2020 first century America. So all that these work requirements do is they just create hurdles, they create paperwork, they make it hard for people to enroll. And particularly the kind of people who need this help tend to have jobs that are not, you know, they're, they're informal, they're, they, they don't have employers who are producing nice W2 forms that they can use to prove that they're employed, but that doesn't mean they're not working. So this is just all about basically denying people health care, denying people nutritional aid, but doing it in a way that you pretend that you're doing something positive. And you know, I hate to use the word evil, but this really is evil.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. On the work requirements, I remember seeing draft versions of these that Republicans would come up with when I was working on this kind of legislation in the Senate in the staff and invariably it looked like I used to explain to people, it'd be like saying to you, you have to file a tax return twice a month. That's what you'd have to do in your normal life. Imagine they said that to you. You were perfectly tax compl before doing it once a year, but now they want you to do it like that and it just becomes impossible, Especially for someone who's out of work for two weeks or three weeks or six weeks.

[Paul Krugman]

Yeah. And for you or me, we would probably manage to do it because you're college educated and we have jobs that are formal and steady and employers who themselves routinely fill all the requirements. Take I spend a lot of time in New Jersey. There are a lot of people working in Trenton. They're hard working, they're trying to support their families. But what they do is every day they line up at street corners hoping that they'll be hired to do day work. How are they going to prove the problem is not that they're not working, the problem is that they have a hard time proving that they're working and yet they're being given this burden of trying. It's not a question of working, it's a question of satisfying the requirements of officials who are probably going to be quite hostile, are going to be looking for ways to not pay them.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Professor Krugman, we have to squeeze in a commercial break here. If you can stay with us, I'd love to widen the lens about the overall effect of the Trump policies, the Trump trade war on the economy, on American workers. What's coming? We'll have more with Professor Krugman right after this.

[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there everyone in podcast land. I just wanted to thank you all for listening and telling your friends about our little podcast. Let's talk off camera with me, Kelly Ripa. I know there are millions of podcasts out there, so I really appreciate you giving us a listen. There are so many gems from season one from Matthew McConaughey disclosing that he and Woody Harrelson might be brothers to Salma Hayek telling us about the argument that started her friendship with Prince. Hope you enjoy season one and stay tuned for a bigger and better season two.

[OnDeck Advertisement]

Building a business may feel like a big jump, but Ondeck small business loans can help keep you afloat. With lines of credit up to $100,000 and term loans up to $250,000, OnDeck lets you choose the loan that's right for your business. As a top rated online small business lender, Ondeck's team of loan advisors can help you find the right business loan to fit your needs. Visit ondeck.com for more information. Depending on certain loan attributes. Your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or sell. The bank on deck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

[AllTrails Advertisement]

We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes, nature makes all of our lives, well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize. With alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The retail giant Target is one of the victims of Donald Trump's economic policy. CNBC is reporting Target on Wednesday cut its full year sales outlook. As executives said weaker discretionary spending, consumer uncertainty about tariffs and backlash to the company's rollback of key diversity, equity and inclusion efforts hurt its business. Back with us is Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman. Professor Krugman, there's a set those effects right there. It's a lineup of Trump policies that are hitting that one store right in the center of them all, all over America. And what is the overall impact of the Trump policies, including the Trump trade war?

[Paul Krugman]

Well, remember that the tariffs are largely who's going to be paying the tariffs really? We say Americans. It's not going to be the Chinese. It's not going to be foreign countries. It's going to be Americans. And it's going to hit particularly relatively inexpensive consumer goods. If you ask where our price is going to go up a lot, it's going to be at places like Target and Walmart. It's going to be places that sell inexpensive items that are subject to tariffs. If you're, you know, if you are a rich person eating fancy meals at restaurants, very little of that is going to be subjected to the tariff. But if you are buying consumer essentials at big box chain stores, you know, which are what we have in America, then you are right in the firing line. And couple that with the way that the whole uncertainty, the craziness of policy is pushing us towards a slowdown and quite possibly a recession. And this is, you know, it's extremely cruel to ordinary working Americans.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The tariff level now with China is on the order of 30%, which is astronomical compared to historical patterns of this. And so there's this, there's kind of an effect out there in the coverage of it that, oh, we've gone from 145 down to 30. Oh, okay. But the people out there who walk into a Target and other stores and see a price go up by 30% are going to experience the reality of it.

[Paul Krugman]

Yeah. People talk as oh, big. We came down from 145 to 30. 145 is prohibitive. It basically destroys trade. 30 only cuts imports by probably around 65%. Right. It's still destructive. It's still basically saying to people, you know, you can't, you can't afford extra dollars for your kid. That's Trump saying, you know, I have gold toilets, but you don't need more than two dolls. And it's just incredible.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And the, this Trump notion that this is how you will create more manufacturing jobs in the United States.

[Paul Krugman]

Yeah. And this is not going to happen. We are not going to start doing doll manufacture is incredibly labor intensive. There's just no way that's going to be taking place in America. And look, they're putting tariffs on all kinds. There's a tariff now on bananas, I guess. Are we going to start opening banana plantations in Minnesota? I mean, this is just not going to do anything for US jobs. All it's going to do is make Americans worse off.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

As we go forward with the combination of assuming this bill passes, that they're trying to pass, we're going to see this astronomical debt increase that usually always goes up when Republicans have power. They always preach against it and they always push up the national debt.

[Paul Krugman]

Yeah. And this is, you know, I'm usually a deficit dove. People often get bent out of shape over deficits or claim to. Republicans constantly denounce deficits, then blow them up when they're in power. But at this point, you know, a country like the United States has historically gotten a lot of running room. We have ende jargon, fiscal space, because people, markets, investors assume, look, it's the United States, it's rich, it's politically stable, they will eventually get their act together. Do we look like that kind of country now? Is this a country you would trust to honor its obligations? I mean, every tariff that Trump is putting on, aside from everything else, you have to realize it's a violation of solemn agreements we've made with other countries. We've just demonstrated that we're a country that just does not honor its promises. So why will countries lend to us if, if we're going to keep on doing this? So I think that the chance of a real, you know, full on, what we call a sudden stop where the, where the money just starts, stops coming to America because people are nervous. It's not certainty, but it looks like a we're looking a whole lot more like Argentina or Indonesia than I ever imagined my country would.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Paul Krugman, thank you so much for joining us tonight. Always an honor to have you join us. Really appreciate it. You can find Paul Krugman's writing now on substack. And coming up, sadistic zombies Donald Trump and Elon Musk have literally taken food away from starving children in Africa. That's next with Dr. Atul Gawande, who will join us live from Kenya tonight. We have been shipping food from the United States to starving people around the world for almost 200 years. But Elon Musk, an immigrant from South Africa, put a stop to that. Elon Musk personally decided that this little girl should get no more food from us. She is starving to death. And the food that was on its way to her from the United States is now rotting away in warehouses in the United States and in Africa because Elon Musk decided that this little girl was getting too much food from us. Our next guest met this little girl in Kenya in a refugee camp near South Sudan, which is now being ravaged by famine. Dr. Atul Gawande is the former assistant administrator for global health at the United States Agency for International Development, the agency that was delivering food to starving people around the world until Elon Musk, with Donald Trump's full approval and the approval of Republicans in the House and the Senate, stopped those food deliveries. Dr. Gawande is in Africa now documenting what the Republican destruction of USAID is doing to people around the world who have depended on aid from USAID to stay alive thanks to that life saving aid, food aid and medical aid that USAID was delivering until Elon Musk decided that no one deserves HIV medications provided by the United States. Joining us now from Nairobi, Kenya, is Dr. Atul Gawande, former assistant administrator for global health at USAID. Dr. Gawande, please just let us know what you've been finding there. I'm sure you'll be reporting it in your writing in the New Yorker. But what is the scale of the deprivation that has occurred because of this cut of usaid?

[Dr. Atul Gawande]

The scale is enormous. The estimates are that from malnutrition alone, it's over 50,000 malnutrition deaths for children thus far. Even bigger, an estimated 100,000 pneumonia and diarrheal deaths. You have estimates still to be made about deaths related to complications of childbirth after cutting maternal and child health funding. It is Senator Rubio, I should say Secretary Rubio testified that, you know, the aid is continuing that 85% of HIV funding is moving and it's just not true. I confirmed that just yesterday speaking to a state official, a State Department official, off the record. I'm here with a team for the past who've been here past few weeks for filming a documentary as well, to capture what is real and what is not real. And I can tell you what we're seeing is real. Wards of malnourished children in this one refugee camp where they're seeing deaths per month this month that are higher than any other month last year. And this is still before malaria season when they see the peak level of deaths.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Of course, the issue of the night and day in Washington is the domestic budget and domestic budget cutting. And there's so much that has gotten in the way of the coverage, or what should be the coverage of this story that you're covering for us, that the Republican Congress and the people who've done this have no idea about the numbers that you're talking about.

[Dr. Atul Gawande]

Or they're denying them. You know, these are deeply connected. It started with terminations of staff and of programs abroad where, you know, these were less visible to us, but it's moved to the United States. Here, for example, there is no more funding flowing for prevention of hiv, including a long acting injection. That's a game changer, an injection that stops HIV for up to a year. Basically we could get a flu shot that would stop hiv. That rollout is also the funding for it in the United States. The cuts have gone to cdc, to nih, to our capacity to do preventive HIV escalation across the board. I just got notified at my university at Harvard that the attack on the universities has reached our program eliminating funds for our work, reducing deaths in surgery in the United States. So this is tolerating hundreds of thousands of people's lives will become millions at risk, decimating our scientific enterprise and looking to end our strength and capability. This is weakening us now.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Dr. Atul Gawande, your global perspective on this is invaluable. Thank you very much for joining us tonight, for making the time in Nairobi so early in the morning to join us. Really appreciate it. Thank you very much.

[Dr. Atul Gawande]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Tragedy struck New York when two sailors on a Mexican Navy sailing ship were killed last weekend in an accident at the Brooklyn Bridge. And the real New Yorkers, including one who doesn't speak a word of English, responded the way they always do. That's next. They laid out the bodies of men, women and children on the dock at the end of Misery Lane. After the worst disaster that ever occurred in New York City's east river separating Manhattan and Brooklyn. It was the largest single event death count in American history prior to 9 11, when on a beautiful June day in 1904, a fire broke out on a steamboat that had just left a Lower east side dock heading up the river for a few hours of relief from the ghetto life in the city. For the passengers, mostly immigrants living in the Lower east side, 1021 bodies were too many for the morgue located at the end of East 26th street on what was known as Misery Lane. And so the bodies were arranged for identification outdoors on the dock at the end of Misery Lane that day. And I could see that shadow of death on the east river on Sunday when I walked down south of Misery Lane to the Lower east side where another east river death ship was docked. I went up to the Manhattan Bridge to get a view of the Mexican Navy training ship that had apparently lost engine power on Saturday night and backed into the Brooklyn Bridge, which chopped off the top of its three masts, sending two Mexican sailors to their deaths. 20 year old America Sanchez and 23 year old Adal Yair Maldonado Marcos. I could imagine what everyone on the ship felt when the river's strong current and wind took control of the vessel. I've been at the helm of boats fighting against that current in the east river, which is at as strong a current as most boats ever face. On Sunday, the day after the accident, from the Manhattan Bridge, I could see what appeared to be two crew members working at the top of the damaged rigging. The day after, two crew members were killed. When I got down to the dock, there were Mexican TV crews there covering the tragedy, and there was a small but now growing collection of flowers to honor the dead the day after. Most of the dozens of people on the dock that day after the tragedy I spoke with were Mexican immigrants as fully New Yorkers as those Lower east side immigrants who went out on what they thought was a day cruise on the East river in 1904 and never came back. The dock where the wounded ship is tied up is at the lower edge of the Lower east side that borders Chinatown. And one of the people bearing flowers was a Chinese speaking man who a Mexican TV reporter tried to interview but couldn't because he couldn't speak a word of English or Spanish. But that Chinese speaking man was obviously moved by the tragedy on his doorstep, as were New Yorkers all over the city. And in paying his respects with flowers, he proved himself to be as much of a New Yorker as anyone else who made their way down to the new misery lane on the east river on Sunday. That is tonight's last word.

[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there everyone in podcast land. I just wanted to thank you all for listening and telling your friends about our little podcast. Let's talk off camera with me, Kelly Ripa. I know there are millions of podcasts out there, so I really appreciate you giving us a listen. There are so many gems from season one from Matthew McConaughey disclosing that he and Woody Harrelson might be brothers to Selma High Hayek telling us about the argument that started her friendship with Prince. Hope you enjoy season one and stay tuned for a bigger and better season two.