← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Lawrence: Trump and GOP effectively taking food from Americans as shutdown cuts to food stamps loom
00:42:30
Tonight on The Last Word: Donald Trump refuses to use emergency funds for food aid during the government shutdown. Also, Senate Republicans defy Trump and join Democrats to block tariffs on Brazil. Plus, farmers and businesses suffer under illegal Trump tariffs. And 40 million Americans prepare to lose SNAP benefits. Rep. Hakeem Jeffries, Sen. Amy Klobuchar, and Paul Krugman join Lawrence O’Donnell.
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A
You know what? A girl's best friend is, not diamonds. Her lawyers. From executive producer Ryan Murphy comes a fiery new legal drama. It's our own boutique women representing women you can't afford to miss.
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B
Make it ring.
- [00:15]
A
Showtime, ladies. Stand up straight and breeze into that room like a storm no one saw coming. Hulu Original series All's Fair premieres November 4th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers. Terms Apply Cash Flow Crunch On Deck small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today@ondeck.com funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by On Deck or Celtic Bank. On Deck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans an amount subject to lender approval.
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B
The last word with Lawrence o', Donnell.
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A
Who is back, starts, hi, Lawrence. Hey, Jen. I haven't taken any what animals that questions lately. I don't remember them being too tough whenever I did take them, that's for sure.
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B
Me neither. We could pass those with flying colors, I'm fairly certain, but we wouldn't be given them so frequently, I don't think either.
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A
You're seeing madness at work every day down there, no question about it. Thanks, Jen.
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B
Thanks, Lawrence.
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A
Thank you. Well, we will not be covering Donald Trump's third term. Donald Trump will not serve a third term. Donald Trump will not run for a third term. Donald Trump's name will not appear on a presidential ballot in any state. So we won't be covering the third term. And we won't be talking about the possibility of a third term because it's impossible. But Donald Trump wants us to talk about him running for third term because it will distract from the Epstein files and it will distract from the cruelty he is imposing on all fronts, foreign and domestic. Donald Trump taunted our first guest tonight with the idea of a third term in a meeting in the Oval Office when he offered Democratic leader House Hakeem Jeffries A Trump 2028 hat and nothing else. And that is when the discussion was supposed to be about how do we solve and prevent a government shutdown. And Donald Trump instead played with hats. That's the story Donald Trump wanted out there that day, the 2028 hat, instead of what was happening because of his shutdown of the government. And so every time Donald Trump says something insane about a third term. This program will devote to no time to that subject. And we're not the only ones who don't want to hear about that subject. That was a complete waste of time. The Republican speaker of the House made it very clear today that he fears the Trump third term. Speaker Mike Johnson made it clear that he doesn't fear Donald Trump actually serving a third term because the speaker said today that that is impossible. And the speaker is right. What Speaker Johnson really tried to do today was to stop the public talk of the madness of a third term for Donald Trump, because the speaker obviously believes that the more crazy Trump and crazy Republican talk there is in Washington about Donald Trump serving a third term, the worse it is for Republicans trying to get reelected to the House of Representatives Next, number one job of a Republican speaker of the House is to hold onto the House. That's it. To hold on to the Republican majority in the House. For a Republican speaker, holding onto power comes first, and any attempt at any form of governing comes in a distant second. And so Mike Johnson believed that he had to say this today as part of his strategy for Republicans to keep control of the House representatives. The Trump 2028 cap is one of the most popular that's ever been produced, and he has a good time with that trolling the Democrats whose hair is on fire about the very prospect. But I do believe that we've got three extraordinary years ahead of us, and the two years of the Trump administration are going to be an incredible thing. And I don't see a way to amend the Constitution, because It takes about 10 years to do that, as you all know, to allow all the states to ratify what 2/3 of the house and 3/4 of the states would approve. So I don't see the path for that. So there's a Republican speaker with the House of Representatives who believes the more talk there is about Donald Trump serving a third term, the more likely it is that our first guest tonight, Hakeem Jeffries, will be the next speaker of the House. Republicans in the House of Representatives have been granted the longest vacation ever offered by a Speaker of the House during a government shutdown caused by those same Republicans. House Speaker Mike Johnson has rewarded House Republicans for shutting down the government by giving them a permanent paid vacation that is now in its sixth week and may go on for months. Mike Johnson sent them on vacation more than a week before the government shutdown, which is now in its 28th day of shutdown. They've had more vacation this year than most Americans get in three years. Republican members of the House have not done one day of work since Mike Johnson led them to shut down the government. And today, in a conference call, Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene once again became the Republican voice of reason about the Republican government shutdown. A Republican source who was on the conference call tells NBC News, quote, greene accused her party of letting the country down. Green also argued that Republican shutdown strategy has angered the American people and hurt Trump's popularity. Johnson, who was leading the call, pushed back on Green. He argued that Republicans are working day and night on a health care solution and that conversations on the expiring Affordable Care act subsidies are ongoing. But Marjorie Taylor Greene took to social media after that conference call and said this. I have no respect for the House not being in session, passing our bills. And I demanded to know from Speaker Johnson what the Republican plan for health care is to build the off ramp on off Obamacare and the ACA tax credits to make health insurance affordable for Americans. Johnson said he's got ideas and pages of policy ideas and committees of jurisdiction are working on it. But he refused to give one policy proposal to our GOP conference on our own conference call. Apparently I have to go into a skiff to find out. The Republican health care plan during Donald Trump's first presidency, Donald Trump said repeatedly that the Trump Republican health care plan would be released next week. Those were his words. Next week. Next week became the week that never came. There is no Republican health care plan. Mike Johnson has no pages about that. None. There has never been a Republican health care plan in the 21st century in Congress. There never will be a Republican health care plan in Congress. Mike Johnson knows that. Marjorie Taylor Greene knows that. Every Republican in the House of Representatives knows that. Every Republican Senator knows that. There are exactly two Republican senators currently serving whoever saw a Republican health care bill introduced in Congress. It was introduced in 1994 by Rhode Island's Republican Senator John Chafee. And it was prevented from ever coming to a vote in the Senate by the Senate Republicans, who then included Senator Mitch McConnell and Senator Chuck Grassley. They are the last two working Republican senators who ever saw a Republican health care bill introduced in the Senate and only introduced because they killed it. Mitch McConnell, Chuck Grassley and all the other Republican senators killed the Republican Senate health care bill. That Republican health care bill introduced by Senator Chafee was proposed as a Republican counter to President Bill Clinton's health care bill. And the Republicans in the Senate killed both of them. That's what Republicans do to health care legislation. They kill it. If it were up to Republicans, there would be no Medicare, there would be no Medicaid, there would be no Affordable Care act, there would be no health care beneficiaries in America whose health care benefits derive in any way from the federal government. And now Republicans are choosing to dramatically increase the costs of health care for people participating in Obamacare because Republicans hate Obamacare. Republicans want to kill it. Donald Trump wants to kill it. Republicans, led by Donald Trump, tried to kill it during the first Trump presidency. And the only reason Obamacare still exists is because Democrats in the House and The Senate stayed 100% united in preserving Obamacare during the first Trump presidency. And they were joined just in one crucial vote in the Senate by Republican Senator John McCain, whose vote was the vote that saved Obamacare. And that's the same John McCain who voted against Obamacare. Like every other Republican, when President Obama's Affordable Care act passed the Senate to become law, John McCain tried to kill it the first time when President Obama was getting it through the Senate. But in what John McCain knew were his final days as a senator, in his final days of life, he decided he would cast that one vote, the one vote of his life, in favor of health care. Supporting health care. The Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, formerly known as food stamps, was created in a compromise between Republican Senator Bob Dole and then the most liberal member of the United States Senate at the time, Democrat Senator George McGovern. Bob Dole's support of food stamps was the most honorable thing he ever did as a United States senator. Some other Republicans hated Bob Dole for supporting food stamps. Republican Newt Gingrich accused Bob Dole of being an enabler of the welfare state. And Newt Gingrich's view eventually became the dominant view of the Republican Party and the view that Republicans live by today, which is, if you are hungry in America, it is your fault. If you cannot afford food in America, you do not deserve any government assistance. That's the Republican view. So even though the Department of Agriculture, where the food stamp program originated, because Bob Dole of Kansas saw it as an important market for the agricultural products for his state, even though the Agriculture Department has enough money to continue to fund food stamps during the government shutdown, Donald Trump is ordering them not to fund food stamps. Donald Trump is ordering the Agriculture Department to fund to not use any of the emergency funding that they have available specifically to continue to fund food stamps. That's the legal intention of the emergency funding that the Agriculture Department has. And that is why states are suing Donald Trump for blocking the funding of food stamps because they believe, correctly, that it is illegal to block that funding even during the government shutdown. They believe Donald Trump is breaking the law again. And so, after beginning the year by allowing the richest person in the world, Elon Musk, to shut down the United States Agency for International Development, and thereby take American food supplies away from starving children in the middle of famine in Africa and creating a situation that Bill Gates called the world's richest man killing the world's poorest children, Republicans have chosen to bring the spirit of that policy home and take the food away from the children who depend on those food stamp benefits. 40% of the people fed by the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance program are children. 40%. Donald Trump and Republicans don't want them to have that food during this government shutdown. Donald Trump and Republican senators and congressmen are basically saying, let them starve, if that's what it comes to. Now, they would never use the word starve, of course, but that is the word they use when they're feeling that they haven't had dinner. Soon enough, they'll say, I'm starving. We've all said it and we've never meant it. And now we are on the verge for the first time in the 21st century of millions of people in America and children in America actually knowing what starving feels like. Republicans did this, and Republicans have given us what our first guest tonight calls the Republican health care crisis.
- [14:50]
C
We have to address the Republican health care crisis and the fact that on November 1, just a few days from now, open enrollment will begin and reality will strike for tens of millions of Americans who receive their health insurance both from the Affordable Care act tax credits and beyond that, their health care costs are about to skyrocket, in some cases increase by $10,000 per year, $15,000 per year, more than $20,000 a year. These are working class Americans.
- [15:29]
B
Who are.
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C
About to be hit with these dramatic increases that they cannot afford.
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A
Leading off our discussion tonight is House Democratic leader Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of New York. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. I want to begin with that last meeting that you had in the Oval Office, which was about this government shutdown. Hasn't been a meeting since. There's been no attempt to solve the problem since by Donald Trump or the Republicans. And Donald Trump taunted you with that hat. And you cut to today and there's Speaker Johnson trying to end this subject, trying to make it clear that there's absolutely no possibility of Donald Trump running for a third term while Donald Trump still plays that game publicly. Do you see the Johnson move as an attempt to just completely shut this down for strategic reasons, that Trump is probably helping you elect Democrats with that kind of talk?
- [16:31]
C
Yeah. It seems to me, Lawrence, that Johnson understands that the second Trump term has been a national nightmare. And the notion that the American people will have to experience more of what they are dealing with right now. Largest cut to Medicaid in American history. Republican health care crisis, threatening to starve children and seniors and veterans by cutting off snap. The fact that costs haven't gone down, they're going up. The assault on all of the things, the American way of life, law abiding immigrant families, democracy itself, the rule of law, it's all a nightmare. Now Donald Trump tries to distract, as he did in that meeting, by dropping those hats in the middle of the meeting randomly in front of myself and Chuck Schumer. We were there to talk about the fact that Republicans are gutting the health care of the American people. And as Democrats, we would not support it. And I think Johnson wants no part of this subject because he knows the more talk of Trump and a third term, the more disastrous it is for.
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A
Republicans, electorally so, on the nutritional benefits, they have never been interrupted during any of the previous government shutdowns that we have ever seen. It was never contemplated by Republicans or anyone at any point in power to do that. You have state attorneys general saying it's illegal, this is against the law, that the law specifically provides for the ability to deliver those benefits even in a government shutdown. Is this something that the Congress could simply rise up tomorrow and say, okay, we will pass a bill right now to make sure this happens? If necessary.
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C
Yes, the Congress could rise up tomorrow. Part of the problem, of course, is that Republicans, as you've pointed out, have been on vacation for the last six weeks. Canceled votes for the last five weeks is extraordinary. They're nowhere to be found. But the money already exists to ensure that SNAP Benefits continue through November 1st into November. But the administration is clearly trying to weaponize hunger as part of their effort to continue to try to jam their right wing ideology and this partisan spending bill down the throats of the American people. And remember, this is the same group of folks, these MAGA extremists who passed their one big ugly bill that in addition to including almost a trillion dollar cut to Medicaid, involved the largest cut to nutritional assistance, Lawrence, in American history, $186 billion. They literally ripped food out of the mouths of hungry children and seniors and veterans and women and families in order to provide billionaire donors with massive tax breaks that they also made permanent. And now they can't find a dime for nutritional assistance, they allege, and can't find a dime to extend the Affordable Care act tax credits for working class Americans.
- [19:34]
A
So there's a new mystery Republican health care bill apparently or policy, piece of paper or sentence or something. And Republican Marjorie Taylor Greene apparently does not believe it. We saw her public reporting about the Republican conference call today in which the speaker apparently tried to placate people like her and others possibly with the idea that, oh, no, no, we're working on coming up with something on health care. Have you ever seen a sentence of Republican health care policy?
- [20:08]
C
Not at all. And you know, Mike Johnson has been fond over the last several weeks of saying, we're working on it, we're working on it. Republicans are the party of health care. No reasonable person in America believes that Republicans give a damn about the health care of the American people. This is the same group of folks, mind you, who have tried to repeal and destroy the Affordable Care act more than 70 different times since 2010 over the last 15 years. It's the same group of people who as a result of their policies from the one big ugly bill are causing hospitals and nursing homes and community based health centers to close all throughout America, including in rural parts of their country, in Louisiana, in their own communities. It's the same group of people, of course, who have triggered the possibility of a $536 billion cut to Medicare if Congress doesn't act at the end of this year because of the one big ugly bill. It's a Republican health care crisis that's devastating rural America, urban America, small town America, working class America, the heartland of America, and black and brown communities throughout America. So it's laughable for them to argue that they have a health care plan designed to make life better for the American people. And Marjorie Taylor Greene is correct, that is nowhere to be found.
- [21:33]
A
Before you go, this government shutdown can only end when there's a phone call from Donald Trump to you or from the speaker to you. At some point, someone has to reach across to the aisle to someone. Chuck Schumer, you. And the conversation has to start. What is going to happen next?
- [21:56]
C
Well, we continue to maintain publicly, Leader Schumer, myself, House and Senate Democrats, we're ready, we're willing, we're able to sit down with any of them anytime, any place, either at the Capitol or we'll go back to the White House in order to reopen the government to pass a bipartisan spending agreement that actually makes life better for the American people, not worse. And then, of course, decisively addresses the Republican healthcare crisis. Trump gets back into town, apparently at the end of the week. We'll be here ready to meet with him. Because we certainly know that in the absence of Donald Trump actually coming to the conclusion that it's time to end the Republican shutdown, Mike Johnson and Leader Thune don't have the permission or the ability to act independently because Republicans in this Congress are nothing more than a wholly owned subsidiary of the Trump cartel.
- [22:51]
A
House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries, thank you very much for starting off our coverage tonight.
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C
Thank you.
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A
Coming up on the day, same day that Marjorie Taylor Greene once again publicly turned against Donald Trump and the Republican position in the government shutdown, Republican Senator Rand Paul led a group of Republicans in an open revolt in the Senate against Donald Trump's tariffs, where the majority of the Senate, including five Republicans today voted against the illegal and unconstitutional Trump tariffs. That's next.
- [23:29]
B
You know what?
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A
A girl's best friend is not diamonds her lawyers. From executive producer Ryan Murphy comes a fiery new legal drama. It's our own boutique women representing women you can't afford to miss.
- [23:42]
B
Make it ring.
- [23:44]
A
Showtime, ladies. Stand up straight and breeze into that room like a storm no one saw coming. Hulu Original series All's Fair premieres November 4th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Ondeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team or bridging cash flow gaps, On Deck's loans up to $250,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star Trustpilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes@ondeck.com depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. On Deck does not lend to North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda, follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.
- [24:46]
B
The American people are basically telling the the president that they are not okay with any of this.
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A
Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter@msnbc.com Project 47 today, a clear majority of United States senators rose up against Donald Trump's tariffs and voted against them. With five Republicans joining the Democrats in a vote of 52 to 48 to block Donald Trump's tariffs imposed on imports from Brazil. The leader of the five Republicans voting against Donald Trump today was Senator Rand Paul. This administration has declared emergencies with over 100 nations with these emergency declarations. The President claims the unilateral right to levy import taxes. Think about this.
- [25:39]
D
What do you think of when you.
- [25:40]
A
Think of an emergency? You think of a war, a tornado, a famine. You don't think of trade policy, that all of a sudden we have to give up on all of our constitutional prerogatives, all of the separation of powers, all that is embedded in the Constitution because there's an emergency in trade policy. I, for one, still believe in the principle of no taxation without representation and will vote to terminate this contrived emergency and end these unconstitutional import taxes. Minnesota's Democratic Senator, Amy Klobuchar has introduced legislation to undo Donald Trump's illegal tariffs on imports from Canada. She called the Trump tariff regime, quote, the ultimate example of boneheaded revenge economics. Joining us now is Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar, Minnesota. She serves on the Senate Judiciary Committee and the Commerce Committee. Senator, of all the reasons to impose new tariffs on Canada, a TV commercial quoting Ron Unbelievable, word for word, and accurately. That's what you're living with now.
- [26:47]
B
Unbelievable. And I do want to thank five Republicans who are brave enough to join us and stand up for capitalism when it came to Brazil, where the President has shoved a 40% tariff tax on a country with which we have a surplus. And now, next up is Canada. I want to thank Senator Kaine for his work on this. We have all come together. Democrats said, what are you doing? This is a tax on American families. It's about $2,000 per family. It is on things like tools. It is on things like audio equipment. It is on things like Halloween candy, which, by the way, I assume the speaker may have a bowl of Halloween Candy that's 10% more expensive. And that's probably where these bills will sit as we wait for the House to come back. But I believe we will also pass this bill, bill on Canada that basically says, no, the President does not have the right to unilaterally decide that he is going to assess this major tariff 10% more because of an ad correctly quoting Ronald Reagan from a premier of one of the provinces. This isif it wasn't so crazy, you would not believe it. But this is what's happened. And it is on all of us, as members of the Senate, to stand up, assert our power our power on behalf of the American people and say we're sick and tired of these boneheaded economics where you're basically adding, we ask people, what's happening to your grocery bills right now? What's happening to your health care premiums, what's happening to your electricity bills? They know the answer. So whatever he does, pardon George Santos, you know, say he needs money from the Justice Department personally, and none of this is going to take away from what they know is the truth.
- [28:36]
A
Senator, one of the things that seems to be getting through with Rand Paul and everybody else who's speaking today is that these are taxes. It's a tax on the American people. That's who pays it. No foreign country pays one penny of these tariffs. And as long as you keep having these debates in the Senate, are there any Republicans standing up on the Senate floor saying, oh, no, no, Donald Trump's right, Americans don't pay the tariffs. China pays the tariffs. Does anyone try that lie on the Senate floor?
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B
You know, in their votes they do, because except for these five senators who have stood up, the rest of them have gone along with this. Now behind closed doors, they say, this is really a disaster for my farmers. This is really bad. And maybe they're waiting for their Supreme Court to take them out of their misery. But this is happening right now. And we await the Supreme Court hearing next week.
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A
Senator Amy Klobuchar, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
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B
It's great to be on. Thanks, Lawrence.
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A
Our next guest, Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman writes, it sounds crazy to say that Republicans are making children go hungry to protect pedophiles, but it's actually a reasonable interpretation of the situation. Paul Krugman joins us next with the Supreme Court ready to hear oral arguments on Donald Trump's illegal and unconscious constitutional tariffs next week. Donald Trump chose to give the Supreme Court a vivid demonstration of just how wildly unconstitutional and illegal and irrational his tariffs are when he imposed a new tariff on everything imported from Canada because Canada showed a TV ad quoting Republican President Ronald Reagan on just how bad tariffs can be. When someone says, let's impose tariffs on foreign imports, it looks like they're doing the patriotic thing by protecting American products and jobs. And sometimes for a short while it works, but only for a short time. But over the long run, such trade barriers hurt every American worker and consumer. Donald Trump then repeatedly told the public lie, quote, ronald Reagan loved tariffs. The Wall Street Journal editorial board sided with Reagan over Trump, saying Reagan knew that tariffs are taxes, while Mr. Trump pretends they are paid by foreigners. Reagan knew protectionist barriers over time breed complacency and lack of innovation. Mr. Trump thinks he's making American manufacturing great again when he is really hurting US Manufacturers by burdening them with higher costs. He can boast about tariffs all he wants, but he shouldn't get away with taking Reagan's trade beliefs in vain. Our next guest, Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman, wrote in the ad, Reagan sounded presidential and trustworthy, a sure reminder of how far the Republican Party has sunk while in the grip of a grandiose, snarling, whining toddler. So Trump claimed the ad was fake and that Reagan loved tariffs. Actually, the ad accurately conveyed the sense of Reagan's remarks. And no, Reagan didn't love tariff. I can also attest personally to the reality of Reagan's tariff policies because I served a year in the Reagan administration as a sub political technocratic staffer working on international policy at the Council of Economic Advisors. One thing that was clear to me while working within the Reagan administration was that Reagan and his people, totally unlike Trump, took their promises to other countries seriously. I never met Reagan, but I was close enough to witness how the tariff policy sausage was made during his administration. And it was nothing like the lawless chaos that rules under Trump. My favorite tariff was the one that benefited me, and it was a Reagan tariff. By the Beginning of the 1980s, Harley Davidson was the last motorcycle manufacturer left in the United States and it was drowning in competition from Japan with Honda and Yamaha, and From Germany with BMWs, as well as classical English motorcycles like Triumph and Norton. Japanese motorcycles were flooding the market in the United States because they were cheaper than Harley Davidsons and because they didn't leak oil like Harley's constantly did. On the verge of collapse as a company, Harley petitioned the International Trade Commission for protection from what they called unfair trade practices by foreign motorcycle manufacturers, especially the Japanese. The International Trade Commission ruled in Harley's favor and recommended a solution that President Reagan accepted and enforced, which was a five year tariff on imported motorcycles that in effect raised prices on imported motorcycles to the point that Harley Davidson was almost at a competitive price level. It was just enough protection for Harley Davidson to survive and take the time by studying Japanese motorcycles and Japanese manufacturing processes to figure out how to finally build a Harley Davidson engine that would not leak oil constantly. The new Harley engine was announced in the second year of the tariff and the Evolution engine, as it was called, was a marvel to behold. A Harley Davidson engine that never leaked oil. That's when I bought my First Harley Davidson. That's when I helped Harley Davidson survive the foreign competition. And because it that first Harley of mine could spend the winter in the living room of my New York City apartment and suddenly Harley Davidson sales were booming. The recovery of the company was so successful that Harley Davidson asked to have the tariff protection removed a year early. And Harley Davidson went on to compete fairly on a level playing field with foreign competition here in the United States and grew into a significant export exporter of American motorcycles around the world. It is as good a story about tariffs as exists. A highly targeted, very precise tool used to save one company that happened to represent the entire motorcycle manufacturing industry in America at the time. Ronald Reagan did not love tariffs. He reportedly went along with the protective tariff for Harley Davidson reluctantly. And it turned out to be the best story that I know about tariffs. Joining us now is Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman. He is distinguished professor at City University of New York's Graduate center and a former New York Times columnist who is now posting his work on Substack. Professor Krugman, I was delighted to discover, I think for the first time that there is your name on that list of the staff of the Council of Economic Advisors during the early Reagan administration with Larry Summers name there too as the domestic policy economist. Those were the days where you could assemble a bipartisan group of economists to reasonably advise a president.
- [35:52]
D
Yeah, I mean I did not then and do not now like a lot of what Reagan did, but it was professional, it was competent and you know, trade is very much an area that was my thing where we made international agreements. That was how we did trade policy was the President and the US Trade Representative would negotiate deals with other countries, then Congress would vote them up or down. But that once the deals were made, they were made. My first meeting in that role was the enamel on steel cookware case. There are lots of things, things like that. And the one thing that would happen quite often was somebody would say why don't we do this? And the guy from USTR from the trade office would say that would be in violation of our agreements. That would be GATT illegal to use the jury, end of discussion. Reagan administration, whatever else, whatever its many flaws, it did not break agreements that it made. And everything Trump has done on terrorist is a violation of solemn agreements. So you know, the idea that Reagan was somehow the same as Trump is just not the same. It's just not true.
- [37:11]
A
You used that old term GATT General Agreement on Tariffs and Trades, which was something that was really functionally governing world Trade as best as could be done over the years. It would take years and years to reach those general agreements. They could begin, the negotiations could begin in one presidency and a couple extend over into the next presidency. And there was a bipartisan flow to that kind of negotiation. And once those agreements were arrived at, they were and are law. No president could violate the law that they have agreed to in those agreements.
- [37:49]
C
That's right.
- [37:50]
D
There are various kinds of, there's a little flexibility. The old system, the system that existed until Donald Trump marched back to the White House was one that had and some escape clauses. You can do stuff. And like the Harley Davidson case, that was a section 301. That was a, a temporary tariff to deal with unfair foreign trade practices, allegedly. You can also do temporary protection for industries that are under stress that, that you think can recover, but they're very limited and there is not something to be done lightly. So Reagan was a pragmatist, as have has. You know, every other president has been pragmatic, willing to do tariffs sometimes. Obama did a tariff on tires, but not at all like, you know, we're going to put tariffs on every place in the world, including islands inhabited only by penguins. Right. This is what we're seeing right now is completely out of the spirit. And by the way, that wasn't Canada that ran the ad, that was the province of Ontario. So this is as if China declared trade war on the United States because the governor of California cut an ad that said something negative about China. You don't do that.
- [39:05]
A
And could you ask for more proof for the Supreme Court next week about what these tariffs are actually about than Donald Trump reacting to a TV ad from Ontario that accurately quotes Ronald Reagan word for word.
- [39:21]
D
Yeah, the only thing that's even worse is the tariffs on Brazil for having the temerity to put a former president on trial for trying to overturn an election. You know, we've got a 50% tariff on Brazil and not even a pretense that has anything to do with economics. This is just trying to, you know, I guess Donald Trump sees a kindred spirit. But my God, these are nothing in the laws that give the president some discretion to impose temporary tariffs. Nowhere does it say that you can impose tariffs because somebody did something that makes the president feel bad.
- [39:58]
A
Professor Krugman, if you could stay with us across the commercial break, I want to ask you about something you've explained as well as anyone has attempted to, which is the Republican choice and you frame it as a choice to stop food aid in this country. We're going to have more with Professor Krugman next. Next. You know what a girl's best friend is?
- [40:20]
B
Not diamonds.
- [40:20]
A
Her lawyers. From executive producer Ryan Murphy comes a fiery new legal drama. It's our own boutique women representing women you can't afford to miss.
- [40:31]
B
Make it ring.
- [40:33]
A
Showtime, ladies. Stand up straight and breeze into that room like a storm no one saw coming. Hulu original series All's Fair premieres November 4th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Ondeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team or bridging cash flow, Gaps on Deck's loans up to $250,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A Plus by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star Trustpilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes@ondeck.com depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by On Deck or Celtic Bank. On Deck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. The connection between the guests on the show is the show.
- [41:21]
B
All that we do is put together.
- [41:24]
A
People who are smart, people who are brave, people who are honest, and lots of times people who've never met each other to have a conversation that has never happened before before. But on that day deepens everyone's understanding about the moment in which we gather. Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC. Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman writes, it sounds crazy to say that Republicans are making children go hungry to protect pedophiles, but it's actually a reasonable interpretation of the situation. Paul Krugman is back with us. Professor Krugman, give us that interpretation of the situation.
- [42:10]
D
Okay, so money is running out for food stamps. It ends Saturday. So we're right on the edge of 40 million people, 16 million children being cut off from nutrition. Crazy. And many of you know it's bipartisan. There's probably more Republicans than Democrats. But this is easy to fix. Even if we can't reopen the government. You know, the whole thing. The easiest solution would be a bipartisan standalone bill just to keep the food stamps going out, just to keep the food flowing. And we know that there's an easy majority of the Senate to pass that bill. Democrats would join the Republicans for that. But you'd also have to call the House back into session. And the House would easily pass it, too. But Speaker Johnson will not call the House back into session.
- [43:04]
B
Why?
- [43:05]
D
Because he would have to seat Congresswoman Grijalova, who would be the 218th vote for a motion to release the Epstein files. There's no other reason for him refusing to call the House back into session. And this is crazy. I mean, we are 16 million children are about to go hungry because Speaker Johnson doesn't want to let the Epstein files be made public. And we have a pretty good idea why. So, you know, it's crazy. But this is where we are as a nation.
- [43:41]
A
You have shown, you put up a map on your substack piece showing the concentration of the Supplemental Nutrition act benefits around the country. And you do indicate that there's a heavy Republican recipient community here, that possibly majority Republican recipient community. You point out one county, just one county in Kentucky as an example. You wrote the county is 96% white and last year it cast 88% of its votes for Trump. Also, 37% of residents are on SNAP. And so, professor, that's clearly a heavily Republican county with more than a third of the population receiving these food benefits that the Republicans have chosen to end.
- [44:36]
D
Yeah, I mean, food stamps now called snap. But SNAP is our, you know, we don't have the welfare that we used to have. We don't have AIDS families, we dependent children. SNAP is sort of the front line of defense against poverty. And some of the poorest places in America are rural areas that have been kind of left behind by the 21st century economy. It's not their fault, but there they are. And many of these places are very strongly Republican. Many of them are, as it happens, very white. I think there's still a caricature that government aid goes to non white people in inner cities. Well, that's just not true anymore. And particularly snap, rural areas are more dependent upon SNAP than urban areas. There's lots of people in both that get it and a lot of non Republicans. This whole idea and you say, well, why don't they just go out and get jobs? Well, 40% are children. Another almost 40% are either elderly or, or disabled. And many of the people who are left actually do have jobs. That jobs just don't pay well enough. So this is incredible that we're imposing literal hunger on people by allowing this program to expire.
- [46:05]
A
And you're writing a report from your local bodega of seeing people, generally elderly people with those cards paying for food necessities. We'll see what happens there in the coming weeks. Paul. Paul Krugman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
- [46:19]
D
Thank you.
- [46:20]
A
We'll be right back. Nobel prize winning economist Paul Krugman gets tonight's last word. Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water. Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it. Even in cold butter. Yep.
- [46:41]
B
Chocolate ice cream. Sure thing, barbecue sauce.
- [46:45]
A
Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new coldzyme technology. Just remember, if it's gotta be clean.
- [46:57]
B
It'S gotta be Tide.