Lawrence: Trump backs down on tariffs after a day of fearing Elon Musk might call him a 'moron'

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Lawrence: Trump Backs Down on Tariffs After a Day of Fearing Elon Musk Might Call Him a 'Moron'"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
• Host: Lawrence O'Donnell, MSNBC
• Episode: Trump Backs Down on Tariffs After a Day of Fearing Elon Musk Might Call Him a 'Moron'
• Release Date: April 10, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves deep into the dramatic reversal of President Donald Trump's tariff policies. Drawing from his extensive experience in political strategy and media production, O'Donnell unpacks the events leading to Trump's decision to back down on tariffs, the influence of high-profile figures like Elon Musk, and the broader economic and political ramifications of these actions.

Trump's Tariff Decision Driven by Fear of Financial Crisis

Lawrence O'Donnell begins by highlighting that President Trump's decision to reverse his tariff stance was primarily driven by fears of triggering a financial crisis. Citing a New York Times report, O'Donnell explains:

Lawrence O'Donnell [02:00]: "Mr. Trump's decision was driven by fear that his tariff scandal could quickly turn into a financial crisis. And unlike the two previous crashes the last 20 years, this would be entirely attributable only to one man."

This acknowledgment underscores the unprecedented nature of the situation, where a single individual's policy decisions could potentially destabilize the entire economy.

Impact on the Stock and Bond Markets

The conversation shifts to the immediate effects of Trump's tariffs on the financial markets. In a dialogue with Harvard economist Jason Furman, O'Donnell emphasizes the severity of the impact:

Jason Furman [02:12]: "If the bond market goes, it's a thousand times, it's a million times more serious than the stock market going."

Furman elaborates on how the bond market serves as the backbone of the U.S. economy, and its destabilization poses a far graver threat than fluctuations in the stock market alone.

Elon Musk's Influence and Tariff Exemptions

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to analyzing Elon Musk's role in influencing Trump's policy decisions. O'Donnell recounts Musk's public criticism of Trump's tariff adviser, Peter Navarro:

Lawrence O'Donnell [03:34]: "Yesterday, Elon Musk was enlisting his little brother to attack Peter Navarro and Donald Trump about the Trump tariffs directly."

Following Musk's denouncement, O'Donnell notes a noticeable silence from Musk during Trump's subsequent announcement to back down on tariffs. This strategic quietude suggests Musk's behind-the-scenes influence:

Lawrence O'Donnell [16:23]: "It seems if anyone can be said to be in charge, it is Elon Musk."

The discussion points to possible exemptions for companies like Tesla, indicating a blurred line between corporate interests and governmental policies.

Concerns Over Insider Trading and Market Manipulation

O'Donnell raises alarms about potential insider trading within the Trump administration. The timing of the tariff reversal, closely following Musk's critiques, raises suspicions about privileged information being leveraged for financial gain:

Lawrence O'Donnell [08:40]: "Donald Trump and who knows how many other people in and around the White House knew that Donald Trump was going to back down. That means they were in possession of the most valuable investment inside information in the world."

This segment underscores the urgent need for investigations into possible financial misconduct stemming from inside government circles.

Investigation into Potential Conflicts of Interest with Elon Musk

The episode transitions to a discussion with Democratic Congressman Stephen Lynch, who illuminates the extensive federal contracts awarded to Elon Musk's enterprises:

Melanie Stansbury [34:12]: "Elon Musk and his companies have been receiving defense contracts even before he joined the Trump administration."

Stansbury highlights the concerning overlap between Musk's business interests and government contracts, suggesting a "severe conflict of interest." The conversation calls for a formal inquiry to scrutinize these relationships and ensure transparency.

Political Repercussions: North Carolina Senate Race

The episode also touches upon the political fallout from the tariff saga, particularly in North Carolina. Former Democratic Congressman Wiley Nichol announces his Senate bid against incumbent Republican Senator Thom Tillis, attributing Tillis's support for the tariffs as detrimental to North Carolina's economy:

Wiley Nichol [43:30]: "This is just bad for North Carolina. We wanted to make this issue front and center in my campaign for the Senate."

Nichol criticizes Tillis for voting against measures that would block Trump’s tariffs on Canadian imports, positioning himself as a defender of North Carolina's economic interests.

Economic Implications: Inflation and Recession Risks

Harvard economist Jason Furman provides a sobering analysis of the long-term economic consequences of Trump's tariff policies:

Jason Furman [27:07]: "We're going to be seeing higher inflation over the next couple of months. All the problems for the Fed, higher unemployment rate as well."

Furman warns of persistent inflation and elevated unemployment rates, attributing these outcomes to the extensive tariff measures, especially the unprecedented 125% tariffs on China.

Lawrence O'Donnell reinforces this outlook by questioning the selective enforcement of tariffs, suggesting that exemptions for certain companies like Tesla could exacerbate market distortions:

Lawrence O'Donnell [30:03]: "It's entirely up to Donald Trump. ... Donald Trump is going to do it in a way where there will be no rules at all for how he does it."

Conclusion

In this episode, Lawrence O'Donnell effectively dissects the complex interplay between presidential decision-making, corporate influence, and economic stability. Through incisive interviews and thorough analysis, the podcast sheds light on the fragile state of the U.S. economy under Trump's tariff policies and the significant role of influential figures like Elon Musk in shaping these policies. The episode serves as a critical examination of governance, market dynamics, and the potential for systemic corruption within high-stakes economic maneuvers.

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Notable Quotes:

• Lawrence O'Donnell [02:00]: "Mr. Trump's decision was driven by fear that his tariff scandal could quickly turn into a financial crisis."

• Jason Furman [02:12]: "If the bond market goes, it's a thousand times, it's a million times more serious than the stock market going."

• Melanie Stansbury [34:12]: "Elon Musk and his companies have been receiving defense contracts even before he joined the Trump administration."

• Wiley Nichol [43:30]: "We wanted to make this issue front and center in my campaign for the Senate."

• Jason Furman [27:07]: "We're going to be seeing higher inflation over the next couple of months."

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the critical issues addressed without needing to tune in.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Jason Furman]

Now it's time for the Last Word with the great Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Good evening, Rachel. You know, after midnight last night when I know you were fast asleep, I was watching bond market developments on Bloomberg, which was covering it live. And following the guidance of Stephanie Rule on Twitter and realizing that something really big was happening in the bond market. Don't ask me to explain it. I just know it was like a wicked big day and it really changed the game today on the, on the Trump tariffs. And it has been a pretty dramatic. I want to read the I have here the the New York Times account of what really turned it. This is their Inside the House reporting. It says the real credit Mr. Trump's advisers claim. So there's that should go to the bond market. Mr. Trump's decision was driven by fear that his tariff scandal could quickly turn into a financial crisis. And unlike the two previous crashes the last 20 years, this would be entirely attributable only to one man. And that's pretty much what was being said, you know, 2:00 in the morning last night about the action on the bond market. And here we are tonight.

[Jason Furman]

Yeah, I mean seeing the stock market crash and crash and crash and crash like a Wile E. Coyote cartoon or something. And like, oh, he's out the bottom of the cliff. Oh no, here comes the anvil to land on his head even though he's at the bottom of the cliff. Here comes the piano to land on the anvil. I mean, to see that just catastrophic collapse that he initiated in the stock market is one thing, but in the bond market it is a whole different thing. That is the spine of the US Economy and the and it underscores, it undergirds the entire claim that we have to be the world's dominant economy, let alone the world's reserve currency. But if the bond market goes, it's a thousand times, it's a million times more serious than the stock market going. And that's what started to happen. And so, yeah, he completely caved because he had to, because he destroyed something that scared even him.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And Jason Furman's going to join us. Jason Furman is going to join us tonight with the sober point that's worth making, which is, oh, by the way, the tariffs that remain in place at this point are exactly the same tariffs that were in place last Wednesday. He's just removed the most egregious, insane ones that he added in the meantime. And so the stock market might have gotten a bit too happy today. We will see. We will see.

[Jason Furman]

Yeah, it's a like, stop, stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself feeling.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah.

[Jason Furman]

Thanks, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you, Rachel. Thank you. Trump backed down. That was the New York Times headline today, when Trump backed down as predicted exactly 24 hours ago on this program. I mean, I didn't say it was going to be today. I didn't know that. But I did say the only way this was going to end, the only way, was with Donald Trump backing down in the next few days. I suggested last night or in a few months. The moron, as Elon Musk calls him, was nowhere to be seen in the media opportunities at the White House surrounding the great event of Donald Trump backing down today. Donald Trump's tariff adviser, Peter Navarro, was reportedly not in the room in the Oval Office when Donald Trump was composing his tweet that would revive the stock market today. But Treasury Secretary Scott Besant was, and it was the treasury secretary standing alone beside the White House press secretary in the White House driveway for the dramatic televised version of the announcement heard around the world today in what turned out to be the biggest media day of the year. At the Trump White House, Elon Musk was nowhere to be seen. Elon Musk was silent today about the biggest news that Donald Trump has made in his presidency. Donald Trump backing down from his trade war was even bigger news than Donald Trump starting his trade war. And Elon Musk was silent about what Donald Trump did today. Yesterday, Elon Musk was calling Donald Trump's chief tariff adviser, Peter Navarro, a moron and saying that he was, quote, dumber than a sack of bricks. And then, of course, apologizing for insulting bricks. Yesterday, Elon Musk was enlisting his little brother to attack Peter Navarro and Donald Trump about the Trump tariffs directly. But today, Elon Musk was silent, but Kimbal was not silent. Kimbal Musk, as we have reported to you, is Elon Musk's younger brother, who is a wholly owned subsidiary of Elon Musk and a member of the Tesla board, which means he is unlikely to ever say anything, a word publicly that his older brother and boss does not approve of, and I mean word for word. At 9:47am, a little more than three hours before Donald Trump announced that he was backing down, Kimball attacked directly by name, JD Vance and Donald Trump. On Twitter, Kimbal Musk identified a tweet by JD Vance saying, it's bizarre to see all the limousine socialists screech desperately for dependence on Chinese supply chains and inflated equities. The Musk brothers and Tesla are entirely dependent on Chinese supply chains. And so Kimbal Musk replied to J.D. vance saying, Republicans for higher prices. How about that? This Trump tariff tax has driven prices for everyday goods through the roof. J.D. vance, I read your book. It's good. I'd think you'd have more sympathy for your community's cost of living. Inflation sucks for everyone, but it especially hits our underserved communities the most. And we all know how much the Musk brothers worry about our underserved communities who cannot afford to buy Teslas. So there's the musk team at 9:47am calling it the Trump tariff tax and saying JD Vance and Donald Trump are now the leaders of Republicans for higher prices. Why did Elon Musk shy away from the Twitter battle this morning? When did Elon Musk know that his stock price was going to start climbing back up today because Donald Trump was going to announce that he was backing down. The potential for insider trading on that information today was unlimited. Donald Trump all but admitted that it was in the middle of the night last night that the bond market scare made him realize that his time was up. Markets that persuaded you to reverse. I was watching the bond market. The bond market is very tricky. I was watching it. But if you look at it now, it's. It's beautiful. The bond market right now is beautiful. But yeah, I saw last night where people were getting a little queasy. Of course, he doesn't actually understand the bond market. They weren't getting a little queasy. It was panic, justifiable panic. And the President's morning TV diet didn't help.

[Stephen Lynch]

Did you speak with anyone?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You know? Jamie Dimon? Did you speak with anyone? Well, I watched Jamie Dimon on Maria Bartiroma show this morning and he was very good. Here is what Donald Trump heard The head of JPMorgan Chase, Jamie Dimon, tell him this morning about what was coming if he didn't back down. How significant would you expect that? Do you personally expect a recession? I am going to defer to my economist at this point, but I think probably that's a likely outcome because markets, I mean, when you see a 2000 decline, 2000 point decline, it sort of feeds on itself, doesn't it, because it makes you feel like you're losing money in your 401, you're losing money in your pension. So imagine Donald Trump with all those White House breakfast pastries spread out in front of him, watching Jamie Dimon and Maria Bartiromo agree that a recession is coming thanks entirely to Donald Trump. The Trump recession had already had a name. As much as Donald Trump loves naming everything after himself, that's the one thing he never wanted named after him. The next recession. But the chances of a recession are still high because after, after Donald Trump backed down, Goldman Sachs reduced the chances of a recession from 65% down to 45%, which is still dangerously high and much higher than it was on Donald Trump's inauguration day when exactly no one was predicting a recession was even possible thanks to the Biden economy that Donald Trump inherited and lied about. Today. Joe Biden handed us over a country that was in very serious trouble economically. Joe Biden handed him the greatest economy any president has ever handed another president. The stock market crash created by Donald Trump could only be reversed by Donald Trump backing down. Donald Trump has twice now backed proved beyond a reasonable doubt, including today, that the stock market crash was all about him. The first time he proved it was Monday when CNBC reported on a rumor floated on Twitter that Donald Trump was considering a 90 day pause in his worldwide tariff madness. We showed you how that drama unfolded on CNBC in real time on Monday for about 20 minutes, when the stock market believed that rumor, the stock market just shot straight up. And then CNBC's reliable White House reporter Eamon Javors reported that the White House press secretary denied that rumor. And that denial then sank the stock market immediately. Once again, two days later, with the stock market in more danger than ever after a terrifying turn of events in the bond market overnight, Donald Trump announced on Twitter that he was backing down. He announced his 90 day pause that we all know is a forever pause. If you were awake after midnight last night watching Bloomberg's live coverage of what was happening in the Bond market overnight around the world, you saw some very dark predictions for what was to come. In the stock market today. We know Donald Trump, the admitted insomniac, was awake after midnight when the bond market was crashing. He was probably on the phone with his treasury secretary then, who was surely advising him that it was time to give up and back down. And so probably from the approximately midnight last night until 1:18pm today when Donald Trump announced that he was backing down. Donald Trump and who knows how many other people in and around the White House knew that Donald Trump was going to back down. That means they were in possession of the most valuable investment inside information in the world. And that is why some senators were wondering today just how much insider trading might have been going on in and around the Trump White House House before Donald Trump made his announcement that sent the stock market skyrocketing back up. But not all the way back up to where it was before Donald Trump started his economic death march of the last seven days. Absolutely. I'm writing to the White House to demand who knew in advance that the president was going to once again flip flop on tariffs and are people cashing in? There is just all too much opportunity for people in the White House and the administration to be insider trading and you can't put it past them for a minute. So we're going to try to find out.

[Melanie Stansbury]

This administration is replete with grifters. Corruption is its middle name. And I have no doubt that a investigation of stock dealing as well as potentially other investments is going to reveal deep corruption in this administration. Insider trading is a real threat here. And I hope there will be a searching, penetrating investigation into the potential for manipulation and insider trading of securities.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

In the war of Donald Trump versus the world, Donald Trump lasted much longer than I thought he would. At the beginning of his war, he lasted almost a full seven days. I didn't expect Donald Trump to keep fighting his war after one day of the stock market crashing. I didn't think Donald Trump was crazy enough to accept even one full day of the stock market crashing. But I was wrong about that. And the House Ways and Means Committee today, Congressman Stephen Horsberg asked the person who is supposed to be in charge of international trade policy in the administration, but is not U.S. trade Representative Jamison Greer. If what we were watching today was the manipulation of the stock market so that some people could have a very good day in that stock market.

[Brendan Boyle]

We have people that are planning to send their kids to college this fall, retire, people who are retirement retiring, whose benefits have declined Is this market manipulation?

[Jamie Dimon]

No.

[Brendan Boyle]

Why not? If it was a plan, if it was always the plan, how is this not market manipulation?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's not market manipulation, sir.

[Brendan Boyle]

Well, then what is it? Because it sure is not a strategy.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We're trying to reset the global trade system.

[Brendan Boyle]

What has that done? How have you done? How have you achieved any of that, but to enact enormous harm on the American people, which was our concern from the very beginning. Tariffs are a tool. It can be used in the appropriate way to protect US Jobs and small businesses. But that's not what this does. So if it's not market manipulation, what is it? Who's benefiting? What billionaire just got richer? And all the while, there are not even any Republicans left in this hearing. They all left because they don't even want to defend this. But meanwhile, the speaker is rushing to the floor to pass a budget reconciliation to screw America by passing the biggest tax cut in history on the backs of the American people. Wtf? Who's in charge?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It seems if anyone can be said to be in charge, it is Elon Musk. One day after Elon Musk called Donald Trump's tariff advisor a moron, without saying that that makes Donald Trump a moron for following a moron's advice, which is the obvious implication, Donald Trump started following Elon Musk's advice and he backed down. As I said last night, Donald Trump, if he managed to sleep after learning about what was happening in the bond market, was going to have to try to fall asleep knowing that he was probably next, that if Elon Musk was calling Donald Trump's tariff adviser a moron, the next logical person for Elon Musk to call a moron was the person taking the moron's advice. And Donald Trump was not prepared to live more than 24 hours of suspense of when Elon Musk might start calling him a moron. And so Elon Musk, in his public silence today, got Donald Trump to do what he wanted him to do today. But Elon Musk is not finished. Elon Musk needs Tesla to be exempted from the tariffs on goods coming into this country from China because assembling a Tesla in the United States involves using components built in China. Sir, would you consider exempting some US.

[Jamie Dimon]

Companies, maybe some larger companies who have been hit hard in the markets last few days?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

During this 90 days, as time goes by, we're going to take a look at it. There are some that have been hard, there are some that by the nature of the company, get hit a little bit Harder.

[Stephen Lynch]

And we'll take a look at that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Just instinctively more than anything else. So how are you going to determine which companies will be allowed to import goods from China without a tariff on them? And the answer is instinctively. That's what Donald Trump said. Donald Trump's going to do it in a way where there will be no rules at all for how he does it. There will be no legal process for how he does it. Donald Trump's going to do it instinctively. That was his word. In other words, Donald Trump is going to do it for the richest person in the world who has given him more money than anyone alive. Donald Trump is going to instinctively make sure that Tesla is able to import whatever it needs to import from China without the burden of the Trump tariffs. Donald Trump said, quote, we're going to take a look at it. There are some that have been hit hard. That means Tesla. There are some that, by the nature of the company, get hit a little bit harder. That means Tesla. And we'll take a look at that. He said, we'll take a look at that. Yeah. And so, on what may have been the day that saw more insider trading in Washington than any other day in history, we embarked on the beginning of the most corrupt possible arrangements for deciding what companies will not have to pay the Trump tariffs on which goods imported from which countries lobbyists will make hundreds of millions of dollars this year alone lobbying the Trump White House on that very issue. And Elon Musk will be lobbying Donald Trump directly right in his ear, while Elon Musk can remain, as he did today, publicly silent. Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Brendan Boyle, P.A. he's a top Democrat on the House Budget Committee and serves on the House Ways and Means Committee. Congressman, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I want to begin with what was the breaking news from the House floor, which is nothing got done tonight. The Republicans were supposed to pass their budget tonight on the House floor, the same version that the Senate passed. What happened?

[Wiley Nichol]

Well, good to be with you. We started off this morning in Rules Committee. The House Republicans were able to pass a rule in order to bring their budget reconciliation bill to a floor for debate, which we debated this afternoon. And I was proud to lead on the Democratic side, but it became clear during that debate that a couple of their speakers on their side stood up, they're mostly Freedom Caucus members, and said that frankly, they didn't believe that the cuts to Medicaid and cuts to other programs went far enough. And so at about 6:30 or so, they walked off the floor, a good 20 of them with Speaker Mike Johnson. The floor came to a halt for about a good hour and a half. And then when they came back, they decided they would give up and come back tomorrow and attempt to get an agreement. So the sticking point basically is a bill that already includes the biggest cuts to Medicaid in American history in order to pay for trillions of dollars of tax cuts for the top 1%. The Freedom Caucus and some House Republicans, enough to really tip the balance, believe it doesn't go far enough in terms of hurting those who are on Medicaid.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So we saw in your committee today a testimony from the US Trade representative insisting, not very convincingly, that there was no stock market manipulation involved at all in what Donald Trump's been doing for the last week. The Wall Street Journal editorializing tonight says it would be hard to find better evidence that markets believe the biggest threat to the world economy is Mr. Trump's tariffs. It does seem that that case has been proven this week.

[Wiley Nichol]

Yeah, there's no question about this. A few months ago, hard to believe under three months ago, before Donald Trump became president, absolutely no one was predicting a recession. The Fed was projecting continued growth, the Wall street firms, all of them projecting growth, rating agencies like Moody's and others. The only question was how much growth would there be now for all of them, their base case is that a recession is more likely than not. Unlike 2001, the recession that was caused by the 911 attacks, or 2008, the recession that was caused by the housing bubble, or even 2020, the pandemic. This would be the first recession, I believe, in my lifetime that you can easily directly attribute to one human being and his policies. Taking a growing economy and driving it into the ditch, into recession in just one week.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, it's the only one in history. Even Smoot Hawley was in. Those tariffs were passed by the House and the Senate. President Hoover signed them into law. There was a bunch of fingerprints on that. But this was Donald Trump all by himself. Congressman Brendan Boyle, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Wiley Nichol]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. Coming up, so what Trump tariffs remain in place after Donald Trump backed down today? The answer, which Wall Street's going to realize maybe sometime tomorrow, is most of them. Harvard economist Jason Furman will explain what Wall street is going to soon discover remains in the Trump tariff package. Professor Furman was President Obama's chief of the Council of Economic Advisers. And he'll join us next. Foreign.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

CNBC's Steve Liesman pointed out this afternoon that today's increase in the stock market was not high enough to wipe out all of the losses people have suffered in the markets since Donald Trump was.

[Jamie Dimon]

Inaugurated after withering punishment from markets, from bond markets. Trillions lost across the globe. The president, he didn't just flinch, but he ducked when it came to what was coming his way here. So they can try to spin this as a victory and maybe they have 75 calls, maybe they get 75 trade deals. But, but it just seems to me that the other way to tell this story is that the president just flinched and did not run this by the markets, run this by the business. And he was facing a deep recession. I will point out there are still trillions lost from that day. Kelly, there's still quite a bit that's been lost here in terms of where we were just on April 3rd. We're still down, way down. These 10% tariffs. The market doesn't like these either. We didn't get that back yet.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joining us now is Jason Furman, former chair of the Council of Economic Advisers with President Obama. He is a professor of economic policy at Harvard University. Professor, thank you for joining us. Once again tonight, Donald Trump backed down to the extent he did without achieving a single trade deal with a single country in the world, not one. And Steve Liesman points out that we haven't gotten back all that was lost in the market just in the last week. What else is Wall street going to realize about the tariff regime on day two on the day after their recovery from the brink of disaster, that there.

[Elon Musk]

Are still quite a lot of tariffs and in fact, one quite important tariff went up. So we're going to be seeing higher inflation over the next couple of months. All the problems for the Fed, higher unemployment rate as well. Those tariffs include 10% on basically every country in the world, 25% on the parts of trade from Canada and Mexico that aren't covered by a trade agreement, 25% tariffs on autos, steel and aluminum, and perhaps most significantly for the economy, 125% tariff rate on China. And whatever you think about the U.S. economic relationship with China, that large and abrupt a change is going to be very painful for us if the President sticks with it.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. So this tariff regime that you just described is by far the highest tariff regime that this country has ever had.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, that's absolutely. Well, no, no, the highest in about 100 years. You can go to the 19th century. They did better than. Better than. But the highest in 100 years, a huge increase from where we were. I think what the markets were excited about, and I don't know that they're totally wrong, is that the President cares about them and he has their, their interests at heart. And so this Governor that I agreed with you, I was thinking the same thing as you. It would only take one day to knock him off it. So it took seven days, but he listened. And so I do think they think that these tariffs are going to come down even more on China. But if they don't, if they stick where they are right now, it will get ugly again.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So everything people have heard about the prices of cars going up, all of.

[Elon Musk]

That still holds 25% tariff on cars. That's still there. Thousands and thousands of dollars more.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

When you buy a car and explain how the tariff on cars that let's call them foreign cars, it's not easy to define a car made in the United States, car not made in the United States. But explain how a tariff on cars not made in the United States will actually also lead to an increase in the price of cars made in the United States.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah. I teach an introductory economics class. And if you have two things that are relatively similar, they're going to sell for the same price. How does that happen here? Well, the price of foreign cars goes up, so the demand for them goes down. People shift over, increase their demand for domestic cars, that drives up the domestic car price. Plus domestic car sellers can charge a higher price. So there's no way out of this. I mean, you know, the Same thing with bottled water. You know, you want to buy Poland Spring bottled water instead of some foreign bottled water. Guess what, they're both going to go up by about the same price. That's because both of those waters, at least to me, taste pretty similar.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So it is, as we now know. We've always known. It's entirely up to Donald Trump. And the other door he opened today is the possibility of these so called tariffs won't necessarily apply to every importer of Chinese goods. It may well be that Tesla is allowed to import whatever it wants from China without paying any of these tariffs. Donald Trump might just carve out an exception for Tesla or any other company he wants to help.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, in President Trump's first term, he added more and more and more exceptions to his tariffs as time went on. And people that studied those, those exceptions found that they were granted for companies that had disproportionately donated to Republicans. And so far he has not really done that. I mean, there've been a few small ones, but there haven't been that type of thing. But yes, either the 125% China rate will come down or we'll get more and more exceptions. And I don't think those exceptions will be based on what is best for the US Economy as a whole. It will be based on whoever has the President's ear.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So first, what would you say tonight to people who are worried about their savings, worried about their possible retirement funds, worried about the pension funds that they might be participants in that are invested in this market and where the future of their own solvency depends on what Donald Trump decides each day he wakes up?

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, I mean, the President's putting us all through much, much more uncertainty. I wish I was not on your show two nights in a row. Lawrence, as much as much fun as it is to be here, he's putting us all through much, much too much uncertainty for most people who are investing. I still would focus on the long term. I would, you know, I have bought and held. It's too hard to figure out the timing and game this, you know, if you sold all your stocks this morning, you would have lost money on the game today. So I would buy hold, but I'd be a little bit pissed off about all the volatility, risk and general down rather than up that's been introduced by this.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

There you go. Using those fancy Harvard professor terms. Professor Jason Furman, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it.

[Elon Musk]

Thanks for having me.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. And coming up, Elon Musk is a walking, talking conflict of interest. The biggest conflict of interest in the history of the American government. Boston Congressman Stephen lynch is investigating that conflict of interest and will join us next.

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[Wiley Nichol]

Just this week we have seen as Elon Musk is on his exit out of the federal government, he has secured billions of dollars in new contracts across the federal government. Conflict of interest? Yes, absolutely. It appears that he has recently secured contracts and promises for contracts at the Department of Defense.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That was Democratic Representative Melanie Stansbury of New Mexico, who joined us on this program last night when we were reporting on Elon Musk's federal contracts and potential conflicts of interests that were issues in that hearing yesterday at the House Oversight Committee on Government Efficiency. Elon Musk's contracts have been reported by the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Daily Beast, and many others. In a letter to the Department of Defense, Congressman Stephen Lynch, a member of the committee, writes, quote, as of February 2025, Mr. Musk and his companies have received a combined total of at least 38 billion in contracts, loans, subsidies and tax credits from the federal government and state governments. In fact, Mr. Musk's businesses have been more reliant on government funds than many of his competitors. Mr. Musk's businesses, which span various industries including the transportation, health, telecommunications and defense sectors, are also subject to the regulatory jurisdiction of numerous federal agencies, including the Department, Department of Justice, and the Department of Transportation. And several of his companies are presently under federal investigation for safety, labor or other serious violations. Elon Musk's companies have been receiving defense contracts even before he joined the Trump administration. Congressman lynch writes, quote, Mr. Musk's space exploration company, SpaceX, its affiliated satellite Internet service, Starlink, and Mr. Musk's car company, Tesla, have enjoyed $13.5 billion in federal benefits from Department of Defense since 2003. This includes at least 9.5 billion in direct contract funds Mr. Musk's companies have received from the Department of Defense. Congressman Stephen lynch and the Democrats on the House Oversight Committee are also focusing on other Trump administration officials. Today, the Democrats introduced a resolution of inquiry to investigate the Trump administration's illegal use of a chat room app that anyone can download on their phones to discuss national security duties that included a journalist and included war plans. The resolution would require that the Trump administration provide documents, communications and information regarding the Trump administration's plan to preserve official communications and compliance with federal regulations, record keeping requirements, the use of signal, Gmail and other electronic communication platforms on personal and government phones to conduct official business plans, procedures, guidance or practices to ensure that official business conducted on messaging platforms like Signal are preserved. And joining us now is Democratic Congressman Stephen lynch of Massachusetts. He's a member of the House Oversight Committee. Congressman lynch, thank you very much for joining us tonight. What do you see in the pattern of what could be conflict of interest in involving Elon Musk?

[Melanie Stansbury]

Good to be with you, Lawrence. First of all, one of the challenges for Jerry Connolly and I in trying to get this information, Jerry's the ranking member on the subcommittee on the full committee. Excuse me. Is that when Trump came in, he immediately fired 17 of the inspectors general who normally would be the cop on the beat to police. Conflicts of interest and ethics violations, things like that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So.

[Melanie Stansbury]

So that person is out. So the dod, Bob Storch was the previous Inspector General for the Department of Defense. He's gone. And now we're dealing with general counsel over there who's in an acting position. But at every turn, you see Elon Musk's presence either gaining an advantage over his competitors in terms of DoD contracts, are actually working to undermine his competitors by removing the personnel who are already at DOD and then inserting his own people. Sometimes people who come from his own company are going on the payroll for the Department of Defense, and they're going to make decisions with respect to outgoing contracts and an ongoing contract. So it's deeply troubling. There's clearly a severe conflict of interest here. And what we're trying to do, both Mr. Connolly and myself, is trying to get that information so that we can begin an earnest and formal investigation of Mr. Musk, but also proceed to the floor on some of these matters and get them before committees, get people on the record with respect to the signal chat that you spoke of where the highest level officials, Mike Walsh, National Security Advisor, the Secretary of Defense, the Director of the Office of National Intelligence, got on an unsecure platform and discussed imminent attack plans. We would like a formal resolution of inquiry to advance so that we can have a hearing on that. We'll bring in witnesses. And then within 14 days, if it's not given that attention, then it'll proceed to the floor for a House vote, a floor vote within 14 days. So we've begun that process. Give great credit to our ranking member, Jerry Conley. He's, he's put a lot of this in motion. And we have, we have a great group of members in the House, members who are brand new members who have been there a while, like myself, that are working together to get this information.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Congressman Steven lynch, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Melanie Stansbury]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up, we now know how Democrats are going to run against Donald Trump's tariffs and Republican senators in next year's Senate elections. Wiley Nichol, North Carolina Democratic candidate for the United States Senate, will show us how when he joins us next. During yesterday's Senate hearing on Donald Trump's failed tariff strategy, North Carolina Republican Senator Thom Tillis asked Donald Trump's US Trade Representative, Jameson Greer, a rather pointed question. In management consulting, we like to focus on is this concept of one throat to choke? In other words, when you're finally taking a look at a strategy, someone has to own it. And you can't say that it's the president or the vice president. So my first question to you in this scenario, the decision maker who decided the alla prima approach, who has obviously had to have spent time anticipating what we saw in the markets and some of the pushback. I'm assuming this all got gamed out because it's a novel approach. It needed to be thought out. Whose throat do I get to choke if this proves to be wrong? And at 1:18pm today, Donald Trump choked. And so Senator Tillis can now control his worst impulses, which we know he didn't really mean. Senator Tillis won his Senate seat in North Carolina in 2020 with only 48% of the vote. Today, former Democratic Congressman Wiley Nichol announced he is running against Senator Tillis in North Carolina. And the Trump tariffs are the main issue in that campaign. As of today, the people of North Carolina depend on $5 billion in goods imported from Canada every year. But Senator Tillis voted against a bill in the Senate that would have blocked the Trump tariffs on those Canadian imports. Senator Tillis is now one of seven Republican co sponsors of a bill that restores Congress's control over tariffs as granted to Congress in the Constitution. The Trump tariffs are going to be following Senator Tillis and every Republican senator in their re election campaigns.

[Stephen Lynch]

Senator Thom Tillis time after time on issue after issue, Tillis votes with MAGA extremists for the Trump agenda. He voted for the tariffs that are cratering our economy and driving up prices for North Carolina families. Instead of standing up for our state, he bends the knee for a would be dictator. And that's why I'm running to represent North Carolina in the U.S. senate. Our democracy is at stake. Our economy is at stake. Our rights are at stake. President Obama always says change won't come if we wait for some other person or some other time. That time is now. Join this [e-mail] let's get to work and get it done.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joining us now is former Democratic Congressman Wiley Nichol of North Carolina. He's running for the United States Senate in North Carolina. What do you see in terms of the Trump tariffs and its impact on North Carolina? What are voters there seeing in the impact?

[Stephen Lynch]

This is just bad for North Carolina. We wanted to make this issue front and center in my campaign for the Senate. Thom Tillis is the most vulnerable Republican and my concern are the families, the farmers, the seniors in North Carolina who are going to be hit incredibly hard by rising costs. Many of them have retirements that have been hit incredibly hard by these tariffs. They're bad for North Carolina. And as I said in that announcement video, Thom Tillis voted for these tariffs. So we've got a tremendous opportunity to make sure we send Thom Tillis packing. For those who are as angry as I am and want to make sure we get rid of Tom Till, they can join my campaign and learn more@wiley.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Nickell.Com we just had Harvard economist Jason Furman explaining to us that we are going to see inflation. Even though Donald Trump pulled back only some of the tariffs today, we are going to see real inflation from this. And everything we were going to see in the increase in auto prices, we are still going to see Imported cars prices will go up. American manufactured cars prices will go up. Used cars prices will go up. Are North Carolina voters ready for that?

[Stephen Lynch]

You know, they are going to hit hard in North Carolina. And what we really need is we need a senator with a backbone, someone who's going to stand up to Donald Trump. And every time when the chips are down, Thom Tillis lays down, he has the leverage. He has been the deciding vote for so many of Donald Trump's horrible nominees, including Pete Hegseth. So that's really the issue that we see playing out. And this is an issue where we think we've got Republicans running scared. As you pointed out, Donald Trump is even running scared and pulled back some of these tariffs. But there's a whole bunch out there and the effects are going to be really bad for our state.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Wiley Nichol, candidate for Senate in North Carolina. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Stephen Lynch]

Thanks so much.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We'll be right back. North Carolina Democratic candidate for Senate, Wiley Nichol gets tonight's last word.

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