Lawrence: Trump has never said 'I wish her well' to any Epstein victims, just Ghislaine Maxwell

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Lawrence: Trump has never said 'I wish her well' to any Epstein victims, just Ghislaine Maxwell"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
• Host: Lawrence O'Donnell, MSNBC
• Description: Drawing upon his experience as a former chief of staff on the Senate Finance Committee and as an Emmy-winning executive producer and writer of ‘The West Wing,’ Lawrence O’Donnell examines the compelling and impactful political stories of the day. Join him every weeknight.
• Episode Title: Lawrence: Trump has never said 'I wish her well' to any Epstein victims, just Ghislaine Maxwell
• Release Date: July 23, 2025

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of "The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell," host Lawrence O'Donnell delves into the intricate web surrounding former President Donald Trump, Jeffrey Epstein, and Ghislaine Maxwell. The episode, released on July 23, 2025, scrutinizes the controversial connections and the ongoing political fallout, offering listeners a comprehensive analysis of recent developments.

Main Discussion Points

1. Trump’s Relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell

The episode opens with O'Donnell highlighting the testimonies from a former associate of Jeffrey Epstein’s co-conspirator in a 2002 criminal trial. The testimony reveals alarming details about Epstein's abuse of a 14-year-old girl and underscores Donald Trump’s association with Epstein during this period.

• Key Testimony Highlights:
  • Timeline: Trump and Epstein's friendship reportedly began around 1987, seven years before Epstein's criminal acts against minors began in 1994.
  • Public Statements: Despite Epstein's heinous crimes, Trump publicly described Epstein as "a terrific guy" during the time Epstein was committing atrocities ([Timestamp: 01:56]).
  • Ghislaine Maxwell’s Involvement: The victim testified that Ghislaine Maxwell was frequently present during Epstein’s abuse, yet Trump has only ever expressed sentiments of "I wish her well" regarding Maxwell, no such expressions have been made towards other victims ([Timestamp: 18:30]).

2. Discharge Petition to Release Epstein Files

Congressional dynamics take center stage as Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna teams up with Republican Congressman Thomas Massie to introduce a discharge petition aimed at forcing a vote to release the Epstein files. This move signifies a rare bipartisan effort to address the opaque handling of Epstein-related documents.

• Guest Commentary:

  • Ro Khanna: "It's exactly why Thomas Massie and I are fighting. It's exactly why this is bipartisan. They are undermining Trump's promise to be transparent and release these files."
  • Thomas Massie: "This bill is moving. This is coming to a vote. We've got enough Republican co-sponsors, twice as many as we need, such that when they sign it and every Democrat signs this, we're going to force a vote on it" ([Timestamp: 23:22]).

• Speaker of the House Reaction:

  • Mike Johnson, the Speaker, responded by recessing the House to avoid the overwhelming discharge petition, signaling a strategic move to control the release of sensitive Epstein files ([Timestamp: 27:00]).

3. Legal Battles: Trump vs. Wall Street Journal

A significant portion of the episode covers Trump’s lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal and Rupert Murdoch, alleging defamation over the publication of articles labeling him as a friend of Jeffrey Epstein.

• Analysis by Tim O'Brien:
  • Evidence of Friendship: "Including Donald Trump's own repeated statements that they were friends... There is film of him and Jeffrey Epstein at events together."
  • Legal Strategy: O’Brien suggests that Trump's lawsuit is unlikely to prevail due to the verifiable nature of the friendship and the Wall Street Journal’s robust defense mechanisms ([Timestamp: 34:01]).

4. Confirmation Process of Emil Beauvais

The episode also touches upon Emil Beauvais, Trump’s former criminal defense lawyer, who is undergoing a confirmation process for a federal judgeship amidst scrutiny over his involvement with the Epstein files.

• Senator Amy Klobuchar’s Concerns:

  • Judicial Discretion: Klobuchar criticizes Beauvais for his role in dismissing high-profile cases and his potential influence on prosecutorial decisions, highlighting previous instances where Beauvais oversaw controversial dismissals ([Timestamp: 43:07]).

• Mimi Rocca’s Insights:

  • Legal Proceedings: "The judge's order is actually very interesting... He is asking for a serious argument if they're really going to file this" ([Timestamp: 37:28]).
  • Victim Notification: Rocca emphasizes that the Department of Justice is reportedly neglecting their statutory responsibility to notify victims in favor of political maneuvering ([Timestamp: 38:43]).

5. Public Opinion and Polling Data

O'Donnell presents recent polling data indicating significant public dissatisfaction with Donald Trump's handling of the Epstein files and related political issues.

• Poll Statistics:

  • 75% of Americans are dissatisfied with Trump's management of the Epstein situation.
  • 64% disapprove of his handling of inflation.
  • 60% oppose his tariffs on imports ([Timestamp: 27:47]).

• Senator Klobuchar’s Commentary:

  • Approval Ratings: "He is at his lowest approval rating ever since he became president... People are on our side of this question tonight" ([Timestamp: 28:15]).

6. Broader Political Implications

The episode examines the broader implications of these scandals on the political landscape, particularly focusing on the potential weakening of the MAGA base and the internal conflicts within the Republican Party.

• Impact on MAGA:

  • Structural Damage: "This may be the kryptonite of the MAGA base. And in politics, you never know what it is that would topple the house of cards" ([Timestamp: 29:15]).

• Legislative Consequences:

  • Budget and Policy Delays: "They're shutting down Congress early... Shutting down the business of Congress to protect the Epstein files" ([Timestamp: 27:47]).

Notable Quotes with Attribution and Timestamps

• Lawrence O'Donnell:

  • "I’ve never seen anything like this. I don't think any of us have." ([Timestamp: 00:58]).
  • "Donald Trump can commute her sentence. Donald Trump can pardon her. Donald Trump can just say she's been punished enough." ([Timestamp: 02:30]).

• Conger Ro Khanna:

  • "It's exactly why Thomas Massie and I are fighting. It's exactly why this is bipartisan." ([Timestamp: 25:40]).

• Senator Amy Klobuchar:

  • "He is at his lowest approval rating ever since he became president." ([Timestamp: 43:44]).
  • "People's premiums are going to go up. You're going to see changes to the Affordable Care Act." ([Timestamp: 45:30]).

• Tim O'Brien:

  • "Donald Trump uses these suits to weaponize the legal system, to not really seek justice, but to try to cow the media." ([Timestamp: 35:12]).

• Mimi Rocca:

  • "He's a guy who actually oversaw the firing of line prosecutors who worked on the January 6 cases." ([Timestamp: 41:06]).

Insights and Conclusions

The episode paints a stark picture of the intertwining relationships between high-profile political figures and notorious individuals like Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. O'Donnell meticulously unpacks the political maneuvers aimed at concealing incriminating information, highlighting the use of legal tactics and legislative maneuvers to obstruct transparency.

Key Takeaways:

1. Lack of Accountability: Donald Trump’s selective expressions of sympathy, particularly towards Ghislaine Maxwell, while neglecting other victims, underscores a pattern of favoritism and potential obstruction of justice.

2. Political Manipulation: The strategic recessing of the House to avoid the discharge petition demonstrates a concerted effort by certain Republicans to control the narrative around the Epstein files, reflecting deeper divisions within the party.

3. Legal Escalation: Trump's lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal signifies an aggressive attempt to suppress unfavorable media coverage, which is likely to backfire given the substantial evidence of his association with Epstein.

4. Public Discontent: The alarming polling data reveals a significant disconnect between Trump's actions and public expectations, potentially heralding a shift in political allegiance and weakening of his support base.

5. Institutional Integrity at Risk: The involvement of figures like Emil Beauvais raises concerns about the impartiality and integrity of the judicial system, especially in cases intersecting with powerful political entities.

Conclusion:

Lawrence O'Donnell’s episode serves as a compelling exposé on the ongoing saga involving Donald Trump, Jeffrey Epstein, and Ghislaine Maxwell. Through incisive analysis and robust discussion, the podcast underscores the urgent need for transparency, accountability, and ethical governance in the face of entrenched political interests. For listeners seeking an in-depth understanding of the current political climate and its implications on justice and public trust, this episode offers a thorough and enlightening perspective.

Transcript

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The last over with Lawrence o' Donnell is starting right now. Hey Lawrence. Hey Jen. Thanks for mentioning that Ro Khanna is going to be here. He blew up the House of Representatives today and sent everyone scattering home. So he's going to lead off our discussions tonight and explain what's next in the House of Representatives. We love somebody who's gutsy enough to blow things up, right? Well, he did it this time and we'll see what happens when they come back in September. But to actually do that forces the speaker to just close down the House and leave town. I can't. I've never seen anything like this. I don't think any of us have. I don't think so either. And the way that Speaker Johnson changed his take on the Epstein files over the last week is quite telling too. Yeah, we don't know the reason why, but we can guess. I'm sure Ro Khanna has some thoughts. We will. We will find out. Thanks Jen.

[Guest 1]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. Now Jane, I want to ask you, did there come a time in your life when you met someone named Jeffrey Epstein? Answer yes. What year Was that? Answer 1994. Did there come a time in your life when you had sexual contact with Jeffrey Epstein? Yes. How old were you when that first happened? 14 years old. Donald Trump was friends with Jeffrey Epstein that day, that very day in 1994 when Jeffrey Epstein raped that 14 year old girl. That testimony was given under oath in the criminal trial of Jeffrey Epstein's co conspirator in sex trafficking, Ghislaine Maxwell in 2002. Donald Trump said he was friends with Jeffrey Epstein for 15 years. That means their friendship began in and around 1987, seven years before Jeffrey Epstein raped the 14 year old girl whose testimony you just heard. And during that time when Jeffrey Epstein was raping children, Donald Trump publicly called Jeffrey Epstein a terrific guy. That victim whose testimony you just heard was asked if Jeffrey Epstein raped her more than once. Question did that happen once or more than once when you were 14 years old? Answer More than once. Was there ever anyone else in the room with you when you had sexual contact with Jeffrey Epstein when you were 14 years old? Answer yes. Who was most frequently in the room when you had sexual contact with Jeffrey Epstein when you were 14 years old? Answer Ghislaine Maxwell. The only thing Donald Trump has ever said about Ghislaine Maxwell since she was convicted of sex trafficking and abusing that girl was I wish her well. That's the only sentiment Donald Trump has ever expressed about Ghislaine Maxwell. And after she was convicted of co conspiring with child rapist Jeffrey Epstein, I wish her well. Ghislaine Maxwell is serving a 20 year sentence tonight in federal prison and she knows that the President of the United States, who wishes her well, also has the power to release her from prison immediately. Donald Trump can commute her sentence. Donald Trump can pardon her. Donald Trump can just say she's been punished enough. And tonight, Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer is using the Trump method of going public when possibly trying to subvert the law. Donald Trump's last criminal defense lawyer, Todd Blanche, who is now the Deputy Attorney General, announced on Twitter that he is in talks with Ghislaine Maxwell's lawyer. And he said, I intend to to meet with her soon and no good can possibly come from that meeting. Todd Blanch's tweet actually says for the first time, the Department of Justice is reaching out to Ghislaine Maxwell to ask, what do you know? Attorney General Pam Bondi's direction. I've contacted her counsel. I intend to meet with her soon. No one is above the law and no lead is off limits. Now, Todd Blanche is lying, so obviously because we know that any lead on Donald Trump is off limits. We know that about the Trump Justice Department and we know that about Todd Blanche, Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer. Todd Blanche has already contacted Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal defense lawyer and the only reason for Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal defense attorney to talk to Todd Blanche is to get her out of prison. Any criminal defense lawyer would be able to tell Ghislaine Maxwell exactly what she has to say to get out of prison. She has to say Donald Trump knew nothing about it. Donald Trump knew nothing about what we were doing to those girls. And it would be very helpful to Donald Trump if Ghislaine Maxwell was also willing to say something incriminating about other prominent people who knew Jeffrey Epstein, like maybe Bill Clinton. And Todd Blanche is exactly. Exactly who Donald Trump would send to Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal defense lawyer to offer a get out of jail deal, if that's what they are up to. Of course, Ghislaine Maxwell had the chance to tell the Justice Department everything she knew, and she refused to do that. She refused to say a word to federal prosecutors. She refused to cooperate with the Justice Department when the Justice Department would have been happy to accept truthful testimony from her about Jeffrey Epstein when he was still alive. Ghislaine Maxwell and her criminal defense lawyer now know they are dealing with the most corrupt department of justice in American history. And the only incentive that Ghislaine Maxwell and her lawyer have to speak to Todd Blanche is to give Todd Blanche the magic words that he can pass on to Donald Trump to get Ghislaine Maxwell out of prison. Ghislaine Maxwell was convicted by a jury in Manhattan, and she is currently appealing her case. Most appeals of criminal convictions don't have a chance of succeeding. And most lawyers know that it is legally and procedurally scandalous that Todd Blanche, of all people, has contacted Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal defense lawyer and intends to meet with her. And Todd Blanche knows how scandalous that is, which is why, in Trumpian fashion, he has made it public. Donald Trump makes public announcements about his intended illegal conduct all the time, including every single time he announces that he is going to illegally change a tariff. That's the Trump method. If he says it publicly, it can't possibly be scandalous. And the Washington press corps mostly falls for that. The bias of the Washington press corps is that all scandals have to be dug out of the deep darkness of the insides of some corrupt institution like the Trump White House or the Trump Justice Department. The most scandalous behavior during the first Trump presidency occurred behind closed doors and was dug up by congressional investigators in the January 6 committee and by enterprising, resourceful reporters. But not anymore. They go public with it on Team Trump with the belief that no one will recognize just how outrageous it is that they are doing what they are confessing to do in tweets that Witness whose testimony you just heard was asked who Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell talked about when they talked about their friends. And the first name, the very first name that that witness gave was Donald Trump. And so that means the name Donald Trump is in the Epstein files. We know it from that testimony has to be in the Epstein files just for that point, because that would have come up in investigative discussions with the FBI and they would have put that in the files. The first name a 14 year old girl listening to Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell talk about their friends and the very first name she mentions that she heard was Donald Trump. Question what names do you recall them mentioning to you when they would tell you about their social circle? Answer. Donald Trump, Bill Clinton, Mike Wallace, people at somme that I didn't know. Donald Trump and his supporters have always suggested that the real dirt of the Epstein investigation would get all over Bill Clinton. And now tonight, we have very strong reason to believe that that is not true. Because Donald Trump is in control of the release of the Epstein files and everything the Epstein files says about Bill Clinton, Donald Trump could release all that. And Donald Trump is refusing to release those files. Donald Trump by tonight must also know, having been briefed by his former criminal defense lawyer, Todd Blanche, everything that the Epstein files say about Donald Trump. And Donald Trump has decided those files can never come out, Never, no matter what they might say about Bill Clinton. That witness whose testimony you just heard was asked about a tragedy that her family suffered the year before she met Jeffrey Epstein. Directing your attention to the fall of 1993. What happened in your family at that time? My father died of leukemia. What was your home life like after your father passed away? Answer. It was not great. My father's employer had canceled his health insurance without him knowing and ended up in the hospital and died very suddenly. And basically my family went into complete bankruptcy and lost everything and we had to move out of our home. Question. You testified that before he passed away your father was a composer. Were you involved in the arts growing up? Yes. Question. Were your brothers involved in the arts? Answer. Yes. Did you continue being involved in the arts after your father passed? Answer. Yes. Directing your attention to the summer of 1994. What did you do that summer? Answer. Me and my two brothers, we went to camp for the first time. Interlaken Arts Camp. What is Interlaken Arts Camp? It's a camp for children with all kinds of artistic abilities. Music, musical theater, theater, orchestra. Question when you arrived at camp that summer, how long had it been since your Father passed away. So the end of October 93. So what is that nine months? Question did there come a time that summer at Interlaken Arts Camp when you met a man and a woman? Answer yes. Where were you when that happened? I was in the main campus area where all the students hung out during a break and where all the little cafes were and sort of the gift shop. And I was on a park bench or a picnic bench with my friends from camp and we were eating ice cream. Question what do you remember happening next? Answer well, we were sitting around and socializing and we see this tall, thin woman approaching us. Well, she was walking with a cute little Yorkie. And the Yorkie came by us and we asked if we could pet the dog. Question what happened then? Answer we started chit chatting, petted the dog, and the rest of my classmates had to go to class. And probably about a minute later another man came and joined her and the rest of my friends. My classmates left and I was there by myself and I sat on the bench still eating my ice cream and the man sat across from me. Question did you have a conversation with that man and that woman? Answer Yes, I did. He seemed very interested to know what I thought about the camp, what my favorite classes were, what my least favorite classes, teachers, whatnot, what the experience was like, and proceeded to say that they were big benefactors of this camp and that they went there every summer and that they gave different kids scholarships. And so they wanted to really know what a student attending the camp, what their perspective was on a question. What, if anything else, did you discuss with them? Answer well, they asked me where I was from and I said I lived in Palm Beach, Florida. And the man said, what a coincidence. We lived there too. What are your parents names? Question that man, that woman you had this conversation with, who were they? Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. What was your impression of them at that point? They seemed very friendly. I thought they were a married couple. She was in eighth grade. She was in eighth grade when Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell together raped her. Why didn't you tell your mother during those years? Because I felt very ashamed. I felt very disgusted. I was confused. I didn't know if it was my fault. And my mother and I did not have that kind of relationship. We didn't talk about our feelings. We weren't allowed to. I was raised in a household where you were sort of spoken to and you don't speak unless you're spoken to. And I would be afraid that I would be in trouble if I said something? Question during those same years, did you tell your brothers or any of your friends that you were being sexually abused by Maxwell and Epstein? Answer no. Question and why not? Answer because how do you tell or describe any of this to any one of your peers or your siblings when all you feel is shame and disgust and confusion and you don't even know how you ended up there? Were there ever times when you were 14 or 15 and 16 while all of this is happening where you thought about hurting yourself? Answer yeah. Question can you explain to the jury what that was like for you? Answer well, it was a multitude of things of my father dying and losing our home and then having a manic, depressed mother who didn't know how to cope and know how to take care of us and, you know, just kind of feeling like it was hopeless. I guess it didn't seem like there was a lot of joy to look forward to and it was just, it was all, it was very painful. Very painful. Donald Trump has never said I wish her well. About that victim of Jeffrey Epstein or any victim of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. Donald Trump reserves all of his sympathies, all of his good feelings in the Epstein Maxwell child rape story for Ghislaine Maxwell and no one else. What is Todd Blanche going to say to Ghislaine Maxwell? Is he going to wish her well? Are there any other convicted criminal defendants in federal prison tonight around the country who did not testify at their trials, who Todd Blanche wants to talk to about anything? Of course not. There's just one. The person who was there with Jeffrey Epstein committing the crimes at the very time that Donald Trump said Jeffrey Epstein is a terrific guy at exactly that same time. We know that Ghislaine Maxwell has things to say about Donald Trump because the testimony at her criminal trial showed, as you just heard, that she talked about Donald Trump to 14 year old girls before and after raping them. The in over his head speaker of the House seemed to mock his own overbearing public religiosity today when he actually invoked scripture on the side of continuing to keep the Epstein files secret. On the side of Donald Trump blocking the release of the investigative files of the child rapist who Donald Trump called a terrific guy. Our guest tonight, Congressman Ro Khanna has teamed up with Republican Congressman Thomas Massie to create a nightmare for Donald Trump and for the speaker of the House. They've been planning to bring a discharge petition that will be signed by both Democrats and Republicans in the House that will force A vote in the House on releasing the Epstein files. Donald Trump has attacked Thomas Massie now more than he's attacked any other Republican. And the speaker of the House is now asking God's help in dealing with Thomas Massie. I try to follow Ronald Reagan's 11th Commandment, never speak evil of another Republican. My gosh, it's hard to do sometimes around here. I also try to follow the scripture, you know, it says, bless those who persecute you. So let me just say about Thomas Massie, could you just accept my Southern. Bless his heart. Okay. What a weakness. Little tiny minded man in subservient service to Donald Trump. Here's what Donald Trump said when asked about his former criminal defense lawyer. Talking to Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal defense lawyer and trying to talk to Ghislaine Maxwell.

[Guest 1]

Mr. President, do you support the Justice.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Department seeking a new interview with Ghislaine Maxwell and did you urge the Attorney.

[Thomas Massie]

General to seek one?

[Guest 1]

I don't know anything about it. They're going to what, meet her?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

They're going to.

[Guest 1]

Your deputy Attorney general is reached out.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

To Ghislaine Maxwell's attorney asking for a new interview. Yeah, I don't know about it, but I think it's something that would be. Sounds appropriate to do. Yeah. Do you have any concern that your deputy Attorney general, who's your former attorney, would be conducting the interview given?

[Mimi Rocca]

No.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

He's very.

[Thomas Massie]

He's a very talented person.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

He's very smart. I didn't know that they were going to do it. I don't really follow that too much. He's such a bad liar. Pathological liars are terrible at lying because they don't actually know what their lying sounds like to sane people. I don't really follow that too much. Donald Trump actually said that about the Epstein files. Donald Trump says it sounds appropriate for his former criminal defense lawyer to be talking to Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal defense lawyer to get something from Ghislaine Maxwell in exchange for what From Donald Trump or Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer. What does he have to offer to Ghislaine Maxwell? No, nothing about that. Nothing. Nothing about that sounds appropriate. Donald Trump is, of course, trying to change the subject by absurdly and childishly accusing President Obama of crimes when the Obama administration was investigating the Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election. Absolutely nothing will come of these inane Trump accusations. There won't be a single minute of investigation about that. The Trump accusations are insane, not supported by a single fact. But this time President Obama finally decided a response was necessary. President Obama issued a statement saying that Donald Trump, what he was doing was a weak attempt at distraction. And he said, out of respect for the office of the presidency, our office does not normally dignify the constant nonsense and misinformation flowing out of this White House with a response. But these claims are outrageous enough to merit one, that these bizarre allegations are ridiculous and a weak attempt at distraction. Nothing in the document issued last week undercuts the widely accepted conclusion that Russia worked to influence the 2016 presidential election but did not successfully manipulate any votes. These findings were affirmed in a 2020 report by the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee, led by then chairman Marco Rubio. The distraction is not going to work. It is especially not going to work on this hour of television that you're watching right now. Donald Trump has already hit Republican Thomas Massie as hard as he can. And Thomas Massie for now is still standing. This morning, Thomas Massie said, this.

[Thomas Massie]

President'S consultants have spent $1.8 million against me. And I got a new tweet last night or a truth social last night.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And clearly that was because I've done.

[Thomas Massie]

This Epstein file like dogs don't bark at parked cars.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Right?

[Thomas Massie]

This bill is moving. This is coming to a vote. We've got another enough Republican co sponsors of the bill, twice as many as we need right now, such that when they sign it and every Democrat signs this, we're going to force a vote on it. It's not going away.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

After Thomas Massie said that, the speaker of the House decided to recess the House representatives for the rest of the summer to avoid Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna's discharge petition overwhelming the House of Representatives this week. And so Mike Johnson seems to have guaranteed that the House of Representatives will once again take its place as the battleground over the Epstein files in September. In Thomas Massie's words, it's not going away. Question how did you feel at the time about the attention that Epstein and Maxwell were paying to you when you were in middle school and high school? Answer how did I feel about the attention? Question yes. Answer Initially I felt special. You know, I didn't really have much support or attention at home. So he was someone who was seemingly looking out for me and caring for me is how it felt. And then he raped her. A year after Jeffrey Epstein attended Donald Trump's second wedding, Jeffrey Epstein raped that 14 year old girl for the first time. And eight years later she could read about the guy Jeffrey Epstein told her about Donald Trump telling New York magazine, I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do. And many of them are on the younger side. They were in middle school and high school. And that is why it is not going away. Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California. He's a member of the House Oversight Committee and the House Armed Services Committee. Carson Khanna, what is the state of play as of tonight and what have you been through today?

[Guest 1]

Lawrence, let me just say that was such a powerful monologue. It's exactly why Thomas Massie and I are fighting. It's exactly why this is bipartisan. There are 11 Republicans who are pushing for a vote, and every Democrat is going to push for this vote, you know, but the speaker basically doesn't want anyone to vote, so he shut down Congress. It really would be as if there were students who didn't want to take a final exam because they were going to fail. So they go to the principal. And you know what the principal does? He says, okay, we'll just end school. We'll call summer recess. I mean, it is a farce. What is going on? They're shutting down Congress because they don't want Republicans voting on the release of the Epstein files.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I want to read something that Rachel Maddow posted tonight. She said, whatever else, Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson and the congressional Republicans who serve under him ever do in this life. This headline will last forever and ever for their whole blessed lives. The headline is johnson Cuts Short House Business to avoid vote on releasing Epstein files. Do they? It seems that some Republicans, Thomas Massie and do you have an estimate of how many other Republicans understand that they simply cannot be associated with shutting down the House to protect the Jeffrey Epstein files?

[Guest 1]

Well, there are 11 Republicans, including Thomas Massie, who are co sponsors, but they're probably two dozen who are appalled by what Johnson is doing. And they understand the consequences here. I mean, they're protecting child pedophiles, rapists instead of young girls. They are undermining Trump's whole promise that he was going to be transparent and release these files. And they're shutting down the business of Congress. It's not just that we were supposed to vote on the Epstein file. We had other votes and other business with the budget that was supposed to happen this week. But because they are so afraid of votes on the Epstein file, they're literally shutting down Congress early. Having us not do anything on the budget simply to make sure that these files don't get released.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So the Republicans who are standing with you, they must be reading, aware anyway of the polls. CBS polls saying 75% are very or somewhat dissatisfied with Donald Trump's handling of the Epstein files. So 75% of the public is on your side of this question tonight and on the side of those Republicans like Thomas Massie, who have joined you in this effort.

[Guest 1]

Absolutely. Even the pollster Rasmussen, who is the most pro Trump sort of results, is saying that they're going to overwhelmingly lose the House if they don't reverse course. The reality is Donald Trump promised that he's not a perfect person. People thought, okay, maybe he's had affairs, but he was going to take it to Washington. He was going to expose the corruption. He was going to let the chips fall where they may. And now he is doing the exact opposite. He's protecting the rich and powerful. And when you're losing people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, like Lauren Boebert, like Nancy Mace, you're losing some of the most vocal people in your base. This is really devastating. I believe after 10 years, it's sort of the first fatal blow to Maga.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Carson, kind of what does it feel like tonight to have initiated this procedure that has really just blown up the House of Representatives and sent everybody scattered, going home?

[Guest 1]

Well, I am saddened that our politics is in the state that it is. I mean, when I introduced it with Massey, I thought, okay, we would get a vote. I didn't think that we would have Donald Trump reply about arresting the first African American president who had the most ethical administration. I mean, Jon Favreau, a speechwriter, said it's just so sad how dumb our politics have become when he saw that tweet. But it is sad to me that we can't in the Congress agree that we should be releasing these files about child pedophiles and getting it out in the public. I mean, it's just frustrating. So I didn't do this to score some political points. I did it because I really believe that this should be released. But it turns out that this may be the kryptonite of the MAGA base. And in politics, you never know what it is that would topple the house of cards. This seems to have been one of the things that will do it.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Carson, Rohana, thank you very much for joining us once again tonight.

[Guest 1]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up, the Trump lawsuit against Rupert Murdoch in the Wall Street Journal looks more and more ridiculous by the day. And today, a federal judge considering the release of grand jury testimony in the Epstein case, said he will decide the issue as quickly as possible. That's.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile now. I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Today, the federal judge considering the Trump Justice Department's motion to release the grand jury testimony in the cases against Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein said, quote, the court intends to resolve this motion expeditiously. However, the court cannot rule on the motion without additional submissions. Judge Paul Engelmeier said the government's motion, quote, does not adequately address those are his words, the factors that he needs to consider before he can unseal grand jury testimony. Joining us now is Mimi Rocca, former district attorney for Westchester County, New York, and a former Assistant U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York. Also with us, Tim o', Brien, senior executive editor for Bloomberg Opinion and the author of Trump Nation. He is an MSNBC political analyst. Mimi first of all, to Todd Blanche's meeting. He's trying to get a meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell, claiming that no one in the Justice Department has ever tried to speak to her before.

[Mimi Rocca]

And I can say, as a former colleague of Todd Blanche, I worked closely with him in the sdny. He was there for many years. He knows that that is almost certainly not true because SDNY has essentially an open door policy in the sense that if you're a defendant who has been charged and you want to come in and talk and be truthful with your attorney and cooperate, the Southern District will absolutely always listen. But it is very stringent about people being truthful. And that is likely, I'm going to surmise why it didn't happen. Probably Ghislaine Maxwell didn't want to have to fess up to stuff that she hadn't already been charged with. And unfortunately, I don't think Todd Blanche, when he talks to, if he talks to Ghislaine Maxwell, cares about the truth. And that's the real travesty here.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Tim, on the Wall Street Journal lawsuit that you have got great experience because Donald Trump sued you when you were reporting on him and still employed at the New York Times, you won that case against Donald Trump, as the Wall Street Journal surely will. One of the specific counts, one of their specific causes of action in their complaint against the Wall Street Journal and Rupert Murdoch is that the Wall Street Journal said that Donald Trump was a friend of Jeffrey Epstein. That is something that they are suing the Wall Street Journal over. Since they filed that lawsuit, the New York Times has had the Trump friendship in a headline. It has been repeated time and time and time again. It's been repeated all over the place. And no one else is getting sued for saying that Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein were friends. And there's the evidence. You couldn't ask for more evidence of that friendship.

[Thomas Massie]

Including Donald Trump's own repeated statements that they were friends to me and to others for many, many years. And it, you know, there are.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So, Tim, can I. Tim, can I hold you right there? So Donald Trump and Rupert Murdoch is going to need this testimony from you at some point. So Donald Trump has actually told you that he was friends with Jeffrey Epstein?

[Thomas Massie]

Yeah. In 2004, he and Jeffrey Epstein, while they were still friends, were bidding on a mansion in Palm beach that they both wanted. Trump outbid him towards the end of 2004. And when I was with Donald in Palm BEACH in early 2005, he took me on a tour of the mansion and he later sold this mansion to a Russian oligarch for quite a bit of money. But that's a different story. When we were there together, he sort of reveled in saying that he, he beat out Jeffrey Epstein for control of the mansion. They had been friends. He thought they would continue to be friends. He was a member at Mar? A Lago, et cetera, et cetera. But he was reveling in the fact that he had outbid him and won this mansion. There is film of him and Donald Jeffrey Epstein at events together. So it begs the question of why Donald Trump's lawyers are suing the Wall Street Journal on an easily verifiable fact pattern that only, I think, undermines the seriousness of the suit itself. And it just shows how Trump uses these suits to weaponize the legal system, to not really seek justice, but to try to cow the media. And he is in for a very, very long uphill battle on this particular suit because the circumstances around it are far different than circumstances around the ABC suit or the CBS suit. And then he's gone out of his way to insult Rupert Murdoch. So there's going to be a lot of institutional willingness, I think, on Dow Jones and the Wall Street Journal's part to vigorously defend this case.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I don't think there's going to be a vigorous pursuit of this case by the plaintiff. I think Donald Trump has done, I think, filing it was the whole thing. And they're never going to follow up. Amimi on the judge. Considering the grand jury testimony, what are the fact. What's the information he needs in order to make a decision on this?

[Mimi Rocca]

Well, I think the judge's order is actually very interesting. I mean, essentially he says, what you filed, doj, this was not a legal brief. This is not an argument. You didn't even address the factors. He's saying, I'm not predetermining it. There are these statutory factors, but there are other considerations. A judge does have discretion. You have to look at, you know, are people still alive who are involved? Yes. I mean, almost all of the factors weigh against disclosure. But again, I think the judge, in a very appropriate way, is saying, come on, you know, give me a serious argument here if you're really going to file this. Although to your point, like the lawsuit, I think the filing is really what they wanted to accomplish here because they don't actually care or think it's going to get disclosed. And very importantly, he said, to your point at the beginning of your show, have you notified the victims here? They're the, you know, D.O.J. that's your responsibility. Notifying victims is actually a statutory responsibility as well. And I do not think that DOJ is thinking about victims here right now. They're thinking about politics and everything that they should not be thinking about as a Department of Justice.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And Tim o', Brien, thank you both very much for joining us tonight. And coming up, Donald Trump's other former criminal defense lawyer, Emil Beauvais is being rewarded with a federal judgeship. But before his confirmation vote in the Senate, Democratic senators want to ask him about his involvement with the Epstein files in his current job in the Trump Justice Department. That's next with Senator Amy Klobuchar.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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That's a hard question.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joining our discussion now is Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. She serves on the Senate Commerce Committee. Senate Judiciary Committee. Senator the Epstein files made their way into the confirmation process of Emil Beauvais to become a appeals court judge. But the Republicans so far have successfully blocked any attempt for any of you to ask him about the Epstein files.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Yes. So this is something that Senator Booker had raised and wanted to know what he had to do with Epstein, if he had anything to do with him. But the point was we never got answers because, as you know, they shut off all debate. I was literally the next one who was going to speak when the chairman shut it off because they didn't want to have any debate about this highly controversial and problematic man. What I was going to say, since you've now given me a chance, is that this is a guy who literally oversaw the firing of line prosecutors who worked on the January 6 cases, who prosecuted cases where police officers had been beat off. This is a guy who actually went after and decided that he was going to dismiss the case against Eric Adams. And then when these very courageous prosecutors, conservatives worked for justices like Justice Roberts and worked for, now Justice Kavanaugh, he was a judge at the time when they said, no, we're not going to do that. Emil Beauvais said, hey, you know what? This is a policy matter. We want him to be able to enforce the Trump policies, so we've got to leave the mayor in. And so they then said, no. I still remember what one of them said. I expect you will eventually find someone who is enough of a fool or enough of a coward to file your motion, but it won't be me. And these people left the U.S. attorney's office as a result, or were fired. This is Emil Bove. This is why we all wanted to have a chance to make our case, to hear from the whistleblower that Senator Durbin was knowledgeable about. But we didn't have any of those opportunities because they shut it off to bring it to the floor for his vote.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator Klobuchar, please stay with us. We're going to squeeze in a commercial break, and we'll be right back.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

A new CBS News poll shows that 70% of Americans think Donald Trump is not focusing enough on lowering prices. 64% disapprove of Donald Trump's handling of inflation. 60% oppose Donald Trump's tariffs on imports, and 47% say Donald Trump's budget, which he signed into law earlier this month, will hurt them. Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar is back with us. Senator Klobuchar, you wrote recently about the deals made to get this bad deal done.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Yeah, I don't think we're surprised by those numbers at all. I'd Also add that he is at his lowest approval rating ever since he became president. And when you look at what's happening here is he promised people, he had people vote for him that truly believed he was going to bring down costs. And instead we've seen costs are up, we've seen more corruption and we've seen a lot more chaos every which way you look. And one of the things that I couldn't believe when it came to corruption, I just wrote a piece of about it in the Washington Post, was that in order to get that final vote to put over that big, beautiful betrayal of a bill on the American people that's going to kick 16 million people off of their health care, they actually had to reward states like Alaska, number of other ones that had high error rates, high error rates when it came to making decisions about food assistance. So it was totally the opposite of what they said they wanted to do, but it was the only way, given that Alaska had the highest error rate in the country, that they could make it work under the Senate rules. So in a totally bizarre move at three in the morning, they actually rewarded a bunch of the states blue and red with the highest error rate. That's going to cost a state like Texas that has a lower rate, they're going to have to pay $700 million more a year while a state like Florida gets off a billion dollars a year for having a Lawrence higher error rate.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And Senator, this bad polling is on new law, most of which hasn't taken effect yet. So down the road, how does it get anything but worse?

[Amy Klobuchar]

Well, I think it's important for people to know that's one of the things Republicans keep saying, oh, you won't see this. Remember the Mitch McConnell and they're going to forget, forget about it. Well, actually, some of it will take effect right now this year. People's premiums are going to go up. You're going to see changes to the Affordable Care act, you're going to see changes to nutrition assistance for veterans, for parents, for seniors, for people with disabilities. So all kinds of things are going to happen now. But you're right, they did try to hide the ball by putting a bunch of things after the election. But people are, they know they did this to help their wealthy friends, to help a bunch of billionaires. And so I just, I always have faith in the American people. And I know this has been a tough year. But when you look at these numbers, you look at what happened in the Wisconsin Supreme Court race, you look at what happened in legislative races from Pennsylvania to Iowa. And the people are on our side, and we simply need to keep making the case and taking them on that this is not what the American people want. They want him focused on cost, and he's not doing that. He's off helping his buddy in Brazil creating a huge mess with a bunch of tariffs that are bringing up costs. And inflation is up 2.7%.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator Amy Klobuchar, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Amy Klobuchar]

It's great to be on. Thanks, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We'll be right back. Senator Amy Klobuchar gets tonight's last word. Possibility means you have a chance. Passion opens the door to all possibilities. When I feel like anything's possible, I feel kind of giddy.

[Amy Klobuchar]

I want to be an astronaut, an.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Artist, an actress, to visit another country. All I need is a backpack and a pair of shoes, and I'll find.

[Mimi Rocca]

A way I'm able to do anything I set my mind to.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I've never felt like more things are possible than right now. In the right shoes, anything is possible.

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Dsw Countless shoes at bragworthy prices. Imagine the possibilities.