← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Lawrence: Trump has realized how Joe Biden boxed him in on the debt ceiling
00:41:48
Tonight on The Last Word: A government shutdown looms as Donald Trump tells Republicans to block a funding bill. Also, with a razor-thin majority, GOP House Speaker Mike Johnson still needs Democrats. And JD Vance dodges questions about Speaker Johnson. Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse, Norm Ornstein, and EJ Dionne join Lawrence O’Donnell.
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- [00:00]
Lawrence O'Donnell
It's the holiday season and the perfect time to gift yourself with a new home for the new year. For a limited time, take advantage of incredible savings and incentives during Dr. Horton's it's yous Year savings event going on now through December 22nd. Your perfect home for every holiday season is waiting for you. To find yours, visit any of our participating Dr. Horton communities or visit us@drhorton.com and discover the Dr. Horton difference. Dr. Horton, America's builder, an equal housing opportunity builder.
- [00:32]
Alex Wagner
If you could hear love, what would it sound like? Son, can we talk about your drinking? Yeah, Dad, I think we should. Helping those closest to you think about their excessive drinking.
- [00:55]
Sheldon Whitehouse
Maybe that's what love sounds like.
- [00:57]
Alex Wagner
More@rethinkthedrink.com an OHA initiative.
- [01:04]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Now it is time for the Last word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence.
- [01:07]
Alex Wagner
Good evening, Alex. And I love the way you began your discussion in your hour about Donald Trump and the debt ceiling and about him publicly saying, there's something I really want the government to do, but I don't want to do it and I want Joe Biden to have to do it. And the stupidity of turning over those cards publicly is uniquely true, literally posting.
- [01:35]
Lawrence O'Donnell
It on social media.
- [01:36]
Alex Wagner
Here's my plan.
- [01:38]
Lawrence O'Donnell
I don't want to get tagged with raising the debt ceiling, so let's do it.
- [01:41]
Alex Wagner
During the Biden administration.
- [01:43]
Lawrence O'Donnell
It's like the plan is no plan. Dude, that's not a secret plan.
- [01:46]
Sheldon Whitehouse
Right.
- [01:46]
Lawrence O'Donnell
You just put it on true social. But you know.
- [01:48]
Alex Wagner
And why do you need the debt ceiling to be increased? Because you plan to increase the debt of the United States by any chance?
- [01:55]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Well, yeah.
- [01:56]
Alex Wagner
Trying to blow it up to the.
- [01:57]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Tune of a couple trillion dollars. Who can know, Lawrence, the mind of Donald Trump.
- [02:00]
Alex Wagner
We're going to check with Congressman Dan Goldman and Senator Sheldon Whitehouse about this crisis on Capitol Hill tonight and how the collapse of the Republicans has once again put us on the verge of a government shutdown.
- [02:14]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Crisis and collapse seem like the right words.
- [02:17]
Alex Wagner
Have a great show. Thanks, Alex.
- [02:18]
Dan Goldman
Thank you.
- [02:19]
Alex Wagner
Well, here's a couple of things that Donald Trump and his apparent boss, Elon Musk do not understand. One, the president of the United States, Joe Biden, is a Democrat. Two, the United States Senate is controlled by Democrats and Democratic Majority Leader Chuck Schumer. Anyone who understands that knows why the budget extension bill negotiated by the Republican speaker of the Republican House includes compromises with Democrats and Chuck Schumer. Elon Musk objected to those compromises in the bill, saying that any Republican who votes for it should be voted out of office. That's how he began his day. And only hours after that, after Elon Musk led the way, only then did Donald Trump catch up with his apparent boss, Elon Musk, and join in objecting to the bill. Republican Speaker Mike Johnson was with Donald Trump and Elon Musk while he was negotiating the bill. He was with them constantly while he was negotiating that bill. Mike Johnson has stayed as close to them as possible to try to make sure that what happened today would not happen. But you cannot stop chaos in the Republican Party. It would not have happened if Donald Trump were a rational person. But he's not. And so Donald Trump decided at the very last minute, after weeks of negotiation, to tell Mike Johnson and the Republicans what he wants in the bill, something he never said before today. Donald Trump has had every day since election Day to tell them what he wanted in this bill, which is necessary to keep the government operating beyond this weekend. And Donald Trump has not said a word about it until today. The last time we had a government shutdown was because Donald Trump changed his mind, just like this, at the very last minute and demanded the impossible. Donald Trump defied a bipartisan agreement at the last minute while he was president. And that's how he got the government shutdown of December 2018, one of the longest shutdowns the government's ever had. That was Donald Trump's record setting shutdown. If the government goes into shutdown again, as it could this weekend, it will once again be Donald Trump's shutdown, this time with a major assist from his apparent boss, Elon Musk. So perhaps it could best be described as the Musk Trump shut down. Especially when Elon Musk demonstrated his total ignorance of how government works today by saying no bills should be passed Congress until January 20th when Donald Trump takes office. None. Zero. Funding for the government runs out this weekend. So Elon Musk in that statement, is advocating for a complete government shutdown until the afternoon of January 20th at least. But Donald Trump disagrees with Elon Musk about that. Completely disagrees. Donald Trump actually wants Congress to pass a bill and pass it right away. And he finally told Republicans what He wants at 4:28pm today, after Republicans had been working on this bill for weeks. Donald Trump wants Republicans to pass a bill to continue to fund the government. And Donald Trump now insists that Republicans pass a bill increasing the debt limit of the federal government. Also, Donald Trump knows that he intends to wildly increase the debt of the federal government with massive tax cuts to billionaires like Elon Musk. But Donald Trump wants Democrats and Joe Biden to increase the debt ceiling for him right now so that he can pass his tax cuts next year. Everyone in politics in Washington understands the debt ceiling game, but only Donald Trump is tactically stupid enough to say out loud, as he did today in writing, when he said this, increasing the debt ceiling is not great, but we'd rather do it on Biden's watch. That's it. That's his whole thing. He'd rather do it on Biden's watch. He needs to do it, but he doesn't want to do it. Let Joe Biden do it. Each party would, of course, rather the debt ceiling be raised by the other party, but they usually don't get to pick when the debt ceiling needs to be raised. In fact, the debt ceiling won't really need to be raised until June at the earliest. But Donald Trump actually wants the Democrats of the United States Senate to vote for a continuing spending bill that includes a debt ceiling increase. And then after that bill passes the House, Donald Trump wants Joe Biden to sign that debt ceiling increase into law for Donald Trump so that Donald Trump can cut the taxes of billionaires like Elon Musk. In other words, Donald Trump is asking for the impossible. That's not going to happen. Asking for the impossible is something he's done before with Congress, and he has always lost when he's asked for the impossible. Always. Yes, he can get tax cuts through the Republican Congress because that's easy, but he's never gotten anything difficult, never once through Congress. Donald Trump added this line about the debt ceiling. If Democrats won't cooperate on the debt ceiling. Now, what makes anyone think they would do it in June during our administration? Now, why would you need Democrats to vote for anything during the Trump administration? Republicans are going to control the House of Representatives. Republicans are going to control the Senate by very tiny margins. And Donald Trump knows that he will not be able to get every Republican in the House and every Republican in the Senate to vote for a debt ceiling increase next year, even though Donald Trump knows he needs one. And so he actually now publicly calls on Democrats to do it for him today. Raising the debt ceiling beyond the end of Joe Biden's administration is one of the brilliant tactical accomplishments of President Biden. As a negotiator with Congress. A Republican House of Representatives agreed to do that for Joe Biden. We reported on that negotiation in detail on this program. It was one of the stunning negotiating triumphs of President Biden and his budget staff that was not well understood at the time, but Donald Trump really understands it tonight. For the first time, Donald Trump understands that Joe Biden brilliantly extended the debt ceiling beyond the end of his own term in the presidency in such a way that Donald Trump will not be able to cut taxes for billionaires next year without a debt ceiling increase. Donald Trump's sudden panic today about the debt ceiling is because Donald Trump only realized today how brilliantly Joe Biden boxed him in on the debt ceiling. And now Donald Trump is begging Joe Biden to let him out of the box, the box Joe Biden created. Poor little Mike Johnson thought that the crazy people around him were okay with what he was negotiating.
- [10:03]
Elon Musk
I was communicating with Elon last night. Elon and Vivek and I are on a text chain together and I was explaining to them the background of this. And Vivek and I talked last night about almost midnight and he said, look, I get it. He said, we understand you're in an impossible position. Everybody knows that. Remember guys, we still have just a razor thin margin of Republicans, so any bill has to have Democrat votes. They understand the situation. They said, it's not directed to you, Mr. Speaker, but we don't like the spending. I said, guess what, fellas? I don't either.
- [10:31]
Alex Wagner
After Donald Trump desperately in effect today, publicly begged Joe Biden and the Senate's Democratic Majority Leader, Chuck Schumer and the House Democratic Leader, Hakeem Jeffries, to let him out of the debt ceiling box by creating an entire new bill to replace the bipartisan bill that Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries negotiated with Mike Johnson. Congressman Jeffries said this.
- [11:02]
Sheldon Whitehouse
Good evening, everyone. House Republicans, House Democrats, Senate Republicans and Senate Democrats reached a bipartisan agreement to fund the government, keep it open and meet the needs of the American people. We reached a bipartisan agreement to provide disaster assistance to everyday Americans whose lives have been upended and turned upside down as a result of hurricanes, tornadoes, wildfires, floods and other types of extreme weather events. We reached a bipartisan agreement to meet the needs of the American people and provide assistance to farmers, families, children, seniors, veterans, men and women in uniform and working class Americans. House Republicans have now unilaterally decided to break a bipartisan agreement that they made. House Republicans have been ordered to shut down the government and hurt everyday Americans all across this country. House Republicans will now own any harm that is visited upon the American people that results from a government shutdown or worse. An agreement is an agreement. It was bipartisan and there was nothing more to say.
- [12:55]
Alex Wagner
An agreement is an agreement until Elon Musk and Donald Trump decide to get involved. Before the explosion of the Musk Trump volcano in the House of Representatives today, the big news of the day in the House was that the House Ethics Committee voted to release the committee's report on its investigation of former Congressman Matt Gaetz and allegations that included him paying young women and girls under the age of consent for sex. The committee report is expected to be released only after the House of Representatives finishes voting on a budget agreement. Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Daniel Goldman of New York. He's a member of the House Oversight Committee. Congressman Goldman, Donald Trump is asking you to do him a big favor. Would you please raise the debt ceiling for him right now so that he can give those tax cuts to Elon Musk and other billionaires next year?
- [13:54]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Well, Lawrence, I think you have it just half a click off. It's not Donald Trump asking for this. It's very clearly President Elon Musk asking for this. The fact that Donald Trump has been completely AWOL during these negotiations to the point where only after Elon Musk publicly tweets about his displeasure and about this budget deal, all of a sudden, Donald Trump, chief of staff to Elon Musk, comes trotting in and blows up the deal. And let's be very clear, this means that what Elon Musk and Donald Trump are doing is likely at this point to shut the government down over Christmas. And when you hear, as you pointed out, Elon Musk say no bills in Congress should be passed until January 20, it's unclear whether he understands that we need a legislative act in order to fund the and provide children and seniors and veterans and service members so many of the benefits that the government provides. I'm not. It's not clear to me that he has any clue. But what is clear is that he's calling the shots.
- [15:07]
Alex Wagner
The bill that was negotiated does include some provisions that are new, that are different from the way the government's been running up to now, including a cost of living increase for you, for members of the House of Representatives. A pay raise. Haven't had one in several years up there. This used to be relatively routine back in the 20th century. It fell behind the general cost of living for most people out there. But Congress usually was able to do this. How did that enter this negotiation?
- [15:43]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Well, my understanding is that that was added by House Republicans. And this, of course, is their bill. They are in the majority, and the reason why they have to negotiate with the Democrats is in the Democrats still control the Senate, but also because Republicans have shown over and over and over again that even though they're in the majority, they cannot govern without Democrats assistance. And so the way our government works is that if you need votes from the other party, you have to negotiate a bipartisan compromise. That's what Mike Johnson did. That's what Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer agreed to. And that bipartisan compromise is exactly what Elon Musk submarined because he did not want his own conflicts of interest to be affected. His own interests in the government with his own government contracts. And I got to tell you, Lawrence, it's scary that you have the world's wealthiest man who supported Donald Trump with nearly $300 million is rumored to be ready to give Donald Trump a financial windfall by using his X company to purchase truth Social having so much influen. This is an unelected oligarch who appears to be running our government.
- [17:06]
Alex Wagner
So just to clarify, this is a kind of a breaking news item for me anyway. I don't think it's been out there that it's your understanding that the Republicans put the congressional pay raise into this bill.
- [17:23]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Yes, my understanding is that the Republicans are the ones who want to pay themselves more. Now, there's a good argument to be made for this, which is that there should bethere could be a raise for members of Congress because we need to have people of all socioeconomic backgrounds, someone like I don't need it, but it shouldn't just be people like me who are in Congress. But this is something that Democrats generally oppose because when Americans are struggling, we should not be paying ourselves more. Yet the Republicans want to pay themselves more. While they now talk about, as you point out, Lawrence, raising the debt ceiling on Joe Biden's watch so that Donald Trump can cut Elon Musk's taxes and build and increase our deficit even more.
- [18:13]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, I mean, Donald Trump keeps turning over his cards in these public statements. Another one he said later today is if Republicans try to pass a clean continuing resolution, all it will do after January 20th is bring the mess of the debt limit into the Trump administration rather than allowing it to take place in the Biden administration. Any Republican that would be stupid enough to do that should be primaried. So he's saying he calls the debt limit a mess. The mess of the debt limit. And he says he wants it to be increased. He believes that the government must responsibly increase it, but he doesn't want to be part of it, even though there's no need to increase it until June at the earliest.
- [19:01]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Lawrence it's not a surprise that Elon Musk has no idea how government works. He's never been involved in government. Donald Trump was president for four years. He understands, at least he should, how these things work and how the debt ceiling works, which is a deadline in June. We are now up against the budget, the government shutting down on Friday having nothing to do with the debt ceiling. And I am really concerned that Donald Trump is so senile or off that he is not able to compute what he's saying. And because it makes absolutely no sense to have an 11th hour demand to raise the debt ceiling on another president's watch when it doesn't need to be raised right now, if you're president for four years, you understand that's a non starter. And I don't know whether this is a competency issue or this is bluster or what it is, but I am a little concerned that he would make this demand at this stage. I'm concerned about his mental capacity.
- [20:09]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, I think that's a very legitimate point. That is a very sensible reading of it because you're right, he had no idea there was a debt ceiling before he became president. But then he did learn how that works and you only have to learn it once. It's not that complicated, especially politically. And to see what he's doing here, you do have to wonder about his mental capacity, especially when he spits it all out publicly that he basically wants Joe Biden to do his work for.
- [20:35]
Elon Musk
Him.
- [20:37]
Vivek Ramaswamy
And spits it all out publicly only after Elon Musk exactly goes public with it. And the question is, who is going, who is the president elect? Is it Donald Trump or is it Elon Musk? Is Donald Trump just Elon Musk's puppet? Elon Musk has been down in Mar A Lago the entire time. Obviously put $300 million into Donald Trump's campaign stands to benefit tremendous, obviously from Donald Trump's tax cuts and from all of the various government contracts that Musk has as well. I think we need to have a real evaluation and I think it is incumbent upon House Republicans, Senate Republicans who will be in the majority to stand up for the American people, not to just do the bidding of Donald Trump. And right now the American people are going to suffer because of Donald Trump's incompetence and Elon Musk's inexperience and dangerousness.
- [21:33]
Alex Wagner
Congressman Dan Goldman, thank you very much for joining us in this breaking news environment on Capitol Hill tonight. Really appreciate it.
- [21:41]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Thank you.
- [21:42]
Alex Wagner
And the Chairman of the Senate Budget Committee, Rhode Island Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, will join us next with the Senate perspective on this ongoing budget crisis now on Capitol Hill. That's.
- [21:59]
Lawrence O'Donnell
It'S the holiday season and the perfect time to gift yourself with a new home for the new year. For a limited time, take advantage of incredible savings and incentives during Dr. Horton's it's yous Year savings event going on now through December 22nd. Your Perfect Home for every holiday season is waiting for you. To find yours, visit any of our participating Dr. Horton communities or visit us@drhorton.com and discover the Dr. Horton Day. Dr. Horton America's Builder an equal Housing Opportunity Builder did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely and parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money. With guardrails in place, Sign up for Greenlight today@Greenlight.com podcast if you have health insurance, you might be able to see a personal dietitian for $0 out of pocket. Nourish connects you with a dietitian that fits your needs covered by your insurance. Nourish accepts hundreds of insurance plans and 94% of patients pay $0 out of pocket. Meet with your dietitian online and message them anytime through the Nourish app. With hundreds of five star reviews from real patients, you know you're in good hands. Find your dietitian@usenourish.com that's usenourish.com.
- [23:33]
Alex Wagner
Here'S what the Democratic Majority Leader in the United States Senate, Chuck Schumer, said about the budget deal that he negotiated with the Republican speaker of the House this morning before Donald Trump tried to blow up that deal.
- [23:50]
Sheldon Whitehouse
This CR is a sound and bipartisan and necessary compromise that will keep the government open and deliver many, many good things for the American people. So now time is of the essence. The sooner Congress acts, the better. If we want to avoid an unnecessary government shutdown right before Christmas, Republicans must work with Democrats to pass the CR question quickly.
- [24:14]
Alex Wagner
Joining our discussion now is Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island. He's the Chairman of the Senate Budget Committee and a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee and Finance Committees. And Senator Whitehouse, that was this morning. It feels like a month ago after what happened today in the House Of Representatives.
- [24:33]
Sheldon Whitehouse
Yeah, if it weren't so deadly serious, it would actually be funny. I mean, it's hard to know what the right metaphor is. Is it the gang that couldn't shoot straight? Is it the Keystone Cops? Is it the clown? Whatever it is, the toddlers are clearly running the kindergarten. Over at the House Republican Caucus. This is no blame to Senate Republicans. We had a deal. Everything was fine. Chuck's concern about, you know, getting everybody together was about timing, about getting this bill done and through the parliamentary process before there was a shutdown. There was no thought that this would blow up until it got to the Republican clown car caucus. And now we are where we are. And if you want to talk about, you know, the toddler analogy that goes over to the executive branch and whether it's like President Elect Musk or President Elect Trump or whoever it is, they clearly have no idea what's going on. This continuing resolution bill has been negotiated for weeks. There was plenty of time for Trump to say, I want the debt limit to be considered in this bill. Never once said it until the deal was concluded and we were debating the timing of passing it, and Musk saying that we shouldn't be passing legislation. I don't think he even knows that the national defense bill just cleared has not been signed into law by the president with pay raises for all of our military personnel all around the world. Does he really want President Biden not to sign that bill? Does he know that we passed the word a bill, the water resources bill today on the Senate floor? Does he even know what a worded bill is? And does he really want a government shutdown? Is that the way they want to introduce themselves to the American people? Particularly as they're about to take on the trifecta? I mean, my God, you've got a competent House Democratic group, you've got a competent Senate Republican group, and you've got a competent Senate Democrat group. The one group that can't shoot straight is House Republicans. This is a problem of the Republican side.
- [26:43]
Alex Wagner
Well, it's very clear that Elon Musk doesn't know about any of those things that you just talked about. Knows absolutely nothing.
- [26:51]
Sheldon Whitehouse
Totally without a clue.
- [26:52]
Alex Wagner
Right. And so it is the blind leading the ignorant and the, you know, gonna be the oldest president we've ever had as he gets into his. Gets into office. And, you know, we just entertained the question of what is this with Donald Trump? Because the debt ceil, Donald Trump obviously didn't know existed until he became President of the United States. But it's a Pretty quick thing to learn. It's like the limit on your credit card. It's not hard to learn. And it is not hard to learn the politics of it. And so from election Day forward, he could have been saying to Mike Johnson, look, we absolutely need a debt ceiling increase on this bill. And Johnson could have been explaining to him why you won't be able to get Sheldon Whitehouse to vote for that and you won't be able to get Joe Biden to sign it. And if Trump had raised this soon enough, they could have aired it out. But of course, everything's done in this crazy last minute because Elon Musk, who doesn't know anything, is leading the way.
- [27:55]
Sheldon Whitehouse
Yeah. It's like that scene in Animal House where the band is washing down the street and Elon Musk turns the band into the Blind Alley and the whole thing just ends up in a smash up. And the problem here is I've been talking to some quite senior Senate Republicans today. They have no idea how the House unscrambles these eggs, how they get themselves back out of the mess that they have made for themselves. So this is not going to be an easy thing for House Republicans to unsnarl. The problem with being a clown car is that when you wreck the car, it's really hard to figure out what to do about it. Cuz you still got the same clowns. Yeah.
- [28:38]
Alex Wagner
And then the reason we're calling this Donald Trump asking for the impossible is Mike Johnson was negotiating the only thing that he could possibly negotiate with Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer and you in the Senate. It's the only possible product that he could come up with. And it doesn't mean that he likes most of it. It doesn't mean that Hakeem Jeffries likes most of it, or that Chuck Schumer or you like most of it. It. It means this was the thing that if we all have to vote for it, that we can vote for. It might be the thing in the end. It might be the thing that they end up walking by.
- [29:11]
Sheldon Whitehouse
They have to go back to it.
- [29:13]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Yeah.
- [29:13]
Sheldon Whitehouse
And with an embarrassing walk back by Musk and Trump.
- [29:16]
Elon Musk
Yeah.
- [29:17]
Alex Wagner
And Musk and Trump just forget by Monday that they insisted on debt ceiling or all these other things.
- [29:23]
Sheldon Whitehouse
Yeah. It's a pretty stunning turn of events here. And it's got to be pretty distressing for people like Trump's chief of staff, who I think probably worked pretty hard to see to it that Musk and Ramaswamy got sent off to their little doggy government efficiency playpen, where they were far away from any executive, bureaucratic, administrative or legislative decision making, and they could just think thoughts about government efficiency. And now suddenly, they come crashing out of the playpen and into an actual deal. They had the speaker in this deal, but the speaker knew he'd need Democratic votes in the House because he can't control his caucus. And the Senate is controlled by Democrats and the President is a Democrat. So they don't get to just have it their way. That sort of separation of power is 101. So it's a really telling educational moment here for the American people in how little Trump and Musk know about basics of government. Basics of government and the situational reality of what is happening over here on Capitol Hill. Just clueless. And then, of course, you've got the Republican House gang that couldn't shoot straight again, all in a tangle. You want two more years of this when they control the House and the Senate and the White House? This is going to be a fine mess.
- [30:57]
Alex Wagner
You know, I remember sitting in this chair and marveling the day that Joe Biden and his negotiators, budget negotiators, and senior White House staff and congressional Democrats managed to get a debt ceiling extension that would reach beyond the end of Joe Biden's first four years in office and beyond the presidential campaign. I just thought, but why would Republicans ever give him that? How did he get that? I just thought it was a masterful negotiating outcome. And Donald Trump just realized tonight, today, just how masterful it was.
- [31:33]
Sheldon Whitehouse
Yeah. And of course, the backdrop to this is that they're planning to loot the federal treasury to the tune of $4.6 trillion to give enormous tax cuts to billionaires like Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy, while those two are overthinking their own deep thoughts in the doggie pen about how to cut Medicare and Social Security and veterans benefits for regular people. You know, this is not going to go over well with the American people. I think a lot of people who voted for Donald Trump are going to feel extremely betrayed. First, by the incompetence because they think that Trump run things, and second, by the direct economic betrayal of selling them out to give billionaires even more tax cuts.
- [32:27]
Alex Wagner
Republicans should be asking Donald Trump tomorrow exactly, how much do you want the debt ceiling increased? How much do you need? What is, how much of an increase in the debt do you want to create?
- [32:40]
Sheldon Whitehouse
Yeah. And by the way, you want to come down to Capitol Hill and negotiate with Chuck Schumer.
- [32:45]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [32:45]
Sheldon Whitehouse
And negotiate with Joe Biden and his team and negotiate with Hakeem Jeffries. Or at least tell me what you want, because clearly you don't know what you want. And the things you say you want are totally unachievable. What are you going to do here, old Art of the Deal guy?
- [33:01]
Alex Wagner
I want to. Because you're on the Judiciary Committee, you're going to be in the confirmation hearings for Attorney General and Director of the FBI. I want to get your reaction to House Republicans, some of them, demanding a criminal investigation of Liz Cheney for what they call witness tampering because of her conversations with Cassidy Hutchinson as that testimony was being approached in the January 6th committee.
- [33:30]
Sheldon Whitehouse
This is back to separation of powers 101. There actually is a rule for legislative immunity that protects people in Congress from being bullied by the executive branch of government for acts that they do in their legislative duties, like, for instance, operating the January 6th commission. So the whole thing just kind of makes no sense from the very beginning. And if you're a prosecutor, you know that you don't start by saying that you should, you know, indict this person and then go looking for a charge. Every prosecutor who puts a case together talks to the witnesses first. Right? Every lawyer who puts a witness on the stand talks to the witnesses first. Every witness who's ever appeared in a legislative committee has been spoken to by the side that called them first. So you know what they're going to say and you it's not witness tampering, it's trial prep. And if you don't understand the difference between those things, you really have no business making important decisions.
- [34:42]
Alex Wagner
Former federal prosecutor Senator Sheldon Whitehouse. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
- [34:48]
Sheldon Whitehouse
Thank you.
- [34:49]
Alex Wagner
Thank you. Our continuing live coverage of the collapse of the Republicans in the House of Representatives tonight will continue next with two experienced observers of the workings of Congress who used to think they had seen everything. E.J. deon and no Morenstein will join us.
- [35:10]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Parents, did you know that only 50% of US adults are financially literate? Millions of people don't fully understand how to manage money. And it's up to you to not let your kids grow up into that statistic. With Greenlight's educational money app and parent controlled debit card, you can teach them how to earn, save and invest wisely. The earlier they learn, the better prepared they'll be to manage their money and build a financially secure life. Give your kids the financial edge they need. Sign up for Greenlight today@Greenlight.com podcast. That's Greenlight.com podcast podcast holiday magic is in the air and DSW's got all the shoes to make your season extra merry. Believe you've got parties to attend and list to check twice. So DSW is taking care of the details like gifts to make their eyes all aglow, styles that bring joy to your world, Brands everyone wants like Ugg, Nike, Birkenstock and more and deals to make your budget bright. Find the perfect shoes for you and yours at a DSW store near you or dsw.com if you have health insurance, you might be able to see a personal dietitian for $0 out of pocket Nourish connects you with a dietitian that fits your needs covered by your insurance. Nourish accepts hundreds of insurance plans and 94% of patients pay $0 out of pocket. Meet with your dietitian online and message them anytime through the Nourish app. With hundreds of five star reviews from real patients, you know you're in good hands. Find your dietitian@usenourish.com that's usenourish.com.
- [36:46]
Alex Wagner
Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson, if he manages to remain speaker, is going to begin the new year with a margin of only two more seats than the Democrats have in the House of Representatives. That means the Republican majority in the House of Representatives is not really a majority, since it is impossible for any Republican speaker to get every Republican representative in the House to vote to continue the basic operations of government. Joining our live coverage discussion of the collapse of the Republican speaker's ability to govern is congressional historian Norm Orenstein. He's also an emeritus scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. Also, Washington Post opinion columnist E.J. dionne is with us. He's a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a government professor at Georgetown University. E.J. and Norm, I know you thought you earned the right to claim that you had seen everything and EJ I guess up to now you had seen everything. But this is a new one.
- [37:49]
Dan Goldman
I don't remember seeing anything like this. What I was thinking of tonight is something Jeb Bush actually said in a debate way back in 2016 where he said that Donald Trump would be was the chaos candidate and would be the chaos president. I don't think we ever expected him to be the chaos president elect and to cause this kind of turmoil, to blow up a deal like this before he even takes office. And I was scratching my head trying to think, in our history, have we ever seen anything like this? And you know, FDR held back after he beat Herbert Hoover and didn't want to intervene until he took office. And Richard Nixon may have messed around with the peace talks before the 68 election because he didn't want them to succeed, but he didn't intervene before he took office. There's just nothing like this. And to see Elon Musk start this, I think it was at 4 in the morning, if I on X, if I got this right to start this whole thing off, it reminded me of something, someone I know who served in government for a long time who said that anyone who's been a CEO for 10 years or more shouldn't serve a government. This, by the way, was a very pro business Democrat. But the idea was that you expect people simply to do what you say when you say it. And you don't understand that in a democracy you've got to deal with different groups, the interests of different people and that it's very complicated to put together deals in government. And Elon Musk just thought he could blow it up and just tell them what to do. Now, forgetting that Democrats control the Senate and Mike Johnson can't deliver his members.
- [39:36]
Alex Wagner
So, Norm, this situation has been negotiated for several weeks now. Mike Johnson has been with Donald Trump most of the days, it appears by the public record, while this was being negotiated. They've had plenty of time to talk about it. Donald Trump didn't enter the discussion until today at the very last minute. And he entered it with more ignorance than anyone has ever brought to a discussion like this.
- [40:06]
Elon Musk
Well, we're going to have a government, an executive branch run by people who have no concept on how to govern. But there's something else that I think we need to emphasize here. Mike Johnson is no moderate, Lawrence. He is a far right Christian nationalist extremist. But he's not far right extremist enough for his own members. And that's something we have not seen before. And let's keep in mind, Fast forward to January 3rd. The new Congress convenes, as you say, this narrow margin. We already have more than enough House Republicans saying they will not vote for him for speaker. If you do not have a speaker, you can't swear in the new members. If they take several days. We go past January 6th. Remember what happened on January 6th. They wanted to keep Congress from meeting to certify those electors. We could go on for days and remember that the last time this happened that made Mike Johnson speaker, it was 15 votes after Kevin McCarthy was ousted. So we could have a farce that gets even more significant with a government shutdown. And we don't have a party that knows how to govern. It is a nihilist party in Congress with a bunch of ignoramus nihilists who are going to be running the executive branch. God help the United States of America.
- [41:33]
Alex Wagner
Norm Ornstein, thank you so much for taking us further down that road into January. I haven't even thought that far ahead. But as usual, that's why you're here. I got to squeeze in a quick break right here to come back with more From Norm and E.J. we'll be right back. Tonight, on his way to a crucial meeting, emergency meeting with House speaker Mike Johnson, J.D. vance refused to say that Speaker Johnson should be re elected as speaker in January.
- [42:06]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Did you speak to Speaker Johnson directly? Did you communicate this?
- [42:11]
Alex Wagner
And now. And we're back with Norm Ornstein and E.J. dion and E.J. there's actually more to that video. He was asked multiple times should Speaker Johnson be reelected? And his response to the first time he was asked that question was, how are you? Now, this is the simplest question that exists in American politics for any member of any party, party. Do you support your speaker of the House? Do you support your Senate majority leader? Republican vice president elect cannot even say that he wants Mike Johnson to be speaker in January.
- [42:51]
Dan Goldman
We've seen something really remarkable happen. I mean, as of about a week ago or maybe even a few days ago, it looked quite certain that Mike Johnson was going to get reelected, that Republicans didn't want to go through again what they went through with Kevin McCarthy. And now that's all up in the air. And it really does look like Johnson's speakership is imperiled. And I appreciated Norm's point earlier that this could ride right into January 6 and the approval of the electoral vote if they don't get their act together. But it's not obvious to me me that Donald Trump can dictate the House speaker any more than he and Elon Musk could dictate the person that the Senate Republicans chose as their leader, John Thune. That was a vote for independence on the part of Republicans. It was a secret ballot. This is a public ballot. But I don't know how they are going to pull this off because if they dump Johnson, I don't know who they put there that satisfies a majority in their caucus. And Donald Trump and President Elect Musk, as Senator Whitehouse called him earlier.
- [44:07]
Alex Wagner
Norm, easiest question you ever could have asked a Democratic president or Democratic vice president, do you support the Democratic speaker of the House?
- [44:14]
Elon Musk
And you would never get any of those individuals saying nothing or have a nice day or refusing to answer. And, you know, let's keep in mind that the last time when we had those 15 ballots, they went through a number of candidates, including, say, Tom Emmer of Minnesota, a very conservative person, and they rejected him because they didn't think he was going to be tough enough. And Mike Johnson was the last choice, the one that they finally settled on because he was one of them. Who do they have? Is it Marjorie Taylor Greene or Lauren Boebert or one of the others? They're going to have a really hard time dealing with this. But let's face it, the bottom line here, Lawrence, is House Republicans especially have no interest in governing. They don't want to govern, which means making tough decisions and doing compromises. They want to live in the la la land of believing that they can wave a magic wand and have government disappear and everything will be fine and everybody will be. And that's not how the world works. And being in the majority in all three of these bodies is going to be intensely difficult for them. If I were Mike Johnson, I might think I'd be better off stepping back from this. In any event, what a set of headaches to deal with.
- [45:38]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, he's already been betrayed by Donald Trump and J.D. vance. Norm Orenstein, E.J. dion, thank you very much for your invaluable input during this coverage. Really appreciate it. Thanks, Lawrence. We'll be right back. That is tonight's last word.
- [45:55]
Lawrence O'Donnell
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