← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Lawrence: Trump humiliated again on the world stage by British PM Starmer after France's Macron
00:41:51
Tonight on The Last Word: Five former defense secretaries protest the firing of generals. Also, Donald Trump is forced to confront reality on camera. Plus, Elon Musk urges Republicans to impeach the judges blocking Trump. And Jonathan Capehart writes about a “powerful Black history moment.” Sen. Ruben Gallego, Andrew Feinberg, Rep. Daniel Goldman, and Jonathan Capehart join Lawrence O’Donnell.
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- [00:00]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Colon cancer is considered one of the.
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Rachel Maddow
Most preventable but least prevented cancers.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
That's why screening for colon cancer is critical. Sometimes people want to avoid the drama of screening with a colonoscopy.
- [00:11]
Rachel Maddow
You know, the prep, the downtime, all of it.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Thankfully, there's the cologuard test, a non invasive screening option for adults 45 and older at average risk that is delivered right to your door. Early detection is critical. When caught early, colon cancer is survivable in 90% of the cases. With the cologuard test, the process is simple. The test is delivered to your door. You send the sample back to the lab and get results within two weeks. The best part, the cologuard test is covered by most insurance plans. The cologuard test is intended to screen adults 45 and older at average risk for colorectal cancer. Ask your healthcare provider about screening with cologuard. Cologuard is available by prescription only. Visit cologuard.com to learn more. Oh, my God. It's the coolest thing ever. Hey, guys, have you heard of Goldbelly? Well, check this out.
- [01:00]
Rachel Maddow
It's this amazing site where they ship the most iconic famous foods from restaurants.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Across the country, anywhere nationwide.
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Rachel Maddow
I've never found a more perfect gift than food.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
They ship Chicago deep dish pizza, New York bagels, Maine lobster rolls, and even.
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Rachel Maddow
Ina Garten's famous cakes.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Seriously.
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Rachel Maddow
So if you're looking for a gift for the food lover in your Life.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Head to goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with promo code gift.
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Rachel Maddow
Now it's time for the Last word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence. Good evening, Rachel. You know, I have had my disappointments. I guess I'll put it from time to time about the White House press corps and how they handle certain things and things they don't do. Today was kind of great because we have a winner. We have a winner tonight for best question asked by a member of the White House press corps. And the winner's going to join us during this program. Yeah, Going to give him the award and through the screen because he's in Washington. And it's a joy to do that because, you know, I'm a critic of the White House press corps. When they get it right, I want to be right there with them, supporting them every step of the way. You know, I don't know if you're a Lyle Levitt fan, Lawrence, but there's this great old Lyle Levitt song where part of the kind of refrain is, I like you because you like me and you don't like much.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
And I feel like you giving an.
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Rachel Maddow
Award to anybody, specifically somebody in the press, you giving an award to anybody for anything is like a really big deal because you don't like much in that regard. So it's all the more special. You're saying I'm kind of a grouchy kind of guy is what you're saying. I would say you're discerning in all the right ways. Okay. Let's leave it at that. There we go. Thanks, Rachel. Thanks, Lawrence. Thank you. Well, Donald Trump was humiliated once again today in the Oval Office, sitting in exactly the same chair where he was humiliated in exactly the same way in this same week on Monday. Donald Trump made history on Monday by being the first president of the United States to lie publicly about America's oldest ally, France, with the president of France sitting right beside him, that created the historic humiliation touch seen around the world. President Emmanuel Macron of France actually reached across to put his hand on Donald Trump to stop Donald Trump from lying about France. Donald Trump said that Europe contributed less aid to Ukraine than the United States did. That's a lie. Europe has contributed more than the United States has. Donald Trump once again told the lie that American aid to Ukraine was a donation, but European aid to Ukraine was a loan, and Ukraine was required to pay back France and all the other European countries that invaded Ukraine. And that was a lie that President Macron could not abide. And that is when President Macron interrupted. Donald Trump had to interrupt him and stop him from continuing to tell that lie, because Donald Trump is not now and never has been educable. Three days later, Donald Trump walked into exactly the same humiliation trap in the Oval Office today with the British Prime Minister sitting beside him. You know, they get their money back by giving money. We don't get the money back. Biden made a deal. He put in $350 billion. And I thought it was a very unfair situation.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
We're not getting all of ours. I mean, quite a bit of ours was gifted. It was given. There were some lins, but mainly it was gifted, actually.
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Rachel Maddow
It was gifted, actually. Did you see that left hand? That's the interruption hand that the French president used. British Prime Minister's left hand goes toward Donald Trump, but he's British. He's British, so he's not touchy. Feel he's not going to touch him. But he does interrupt him just like the French president did. Once again, Donald Trump told the deranged lie that the aid supplied to Ukraine by the British will have to be paid back by Ukraine. And that is the only thing Donald Trump said today that forced the British Prime Minister to actually interrupt him. British prime minister did not see it as his role to correct Donald Trump for lying about the amount of American aid supplied to Ukraine. Donald Trump more than doubles the real number when he accuses Joe Biden of providing $350 billion in aid to Ukraine, when in fact was $119 billion. It's the kind of Trump lie that everyone has grown accustomed to, especially the White House press corps. Of course Donald Trump will lie about the numbers. He always does. Any number. The Washington press corps seems to have internalized that to the point where they never zero in on his lies about the numbers. If any other president said $350 billion when the true number is $119 billion, every Washington reporter would instantly zoom in on that. But Trump lying is now fully built in to the press expectations of anything Donald Trump says publicly. Imagine a reporter asking, why are you lying about it, sir? Why do you keep lying about it, sir? That actually happened in those exact words during the first Trump presidency, when White House reporter Andrew Feinberg got so fed up with Trump lies that that's what he ended up asking, why are you lying? A lone voice emerging from the White House press corps, then coming out of the clamor saying, why are you lying about it, sir? Why do you keep lying about it, sir? And of course, Donald Trump didn't answer him. Today in the Oval Office, Andrew Feinberg once again asked the best question of anyone in the White House press corps.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
On Terrace, you just said, with China.
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Rachel Maddow
Who are you with?
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Lawrence O'Donnell
I'm with the Independent. Oh, that's good. It's on Terrace.
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Rachel Maddow
You just said, with China.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
We charged them. He charged them as we charged China. But the tariffs are paid eventually by American importers and consumers.
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Rachel Maddow
Finally, a White House reporter confronting Donald Trump with the truth about tariffs for the first time ever. What's Donald Trump going to do? He's cornered. American tariffs are paid by American consumers. The truth that everyone in the world knows except Donald Trump and, I guess, Trump voters. Donald Trump, when he was cornered, did what he always does when he's cornered, he lied.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
The tariffs are paid eventually by American importers and consumers. No, they're not.
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Rachel Maddow
No, I think they're paid for by the country.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
But, you know, look, we can get into that.
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Rachel Maddow
And that was the end of that. It's like saying gasoline taxes are paid at the pump by us when we buy gas for our cars. And Donald Trump says, no, they're not. The sad truth is, we don't actually know if Donald Trump is so deeply stupid that he believes what he is saying. I leave it to you to decide which would be better, A president stupid enough to think that foreign countries pay American tariffs or a president who knows the truth but lies about it. It's one or the other. The British Prime Minister is sitting beside the President of the United States and is hearing the stupidest response by a head of state to a question about tariffs. And in the history of the subject of tariffs, there is a kind of person whose humiliation reflex simply doesn't work. That might be what's going on with Donald Trump. It might be that Donald Trump sitting beside the British Prime Minister saying the stupidest thing ever said by a head of state about tariffs is not something Donald Trump finds humiliating. But the world sees it as humiliating to Donald Trump. After the Oval Office session, the President and the Prime Minister had lunch and then were back in front of the microphones for a formal press conference in which, in his formal opening remarks, Donald Trump proved once again how relentlessly uneducable he is by telling the same lie that he was humiliated for in the Oval Office. Much of the European aid to Ukraine.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Has been sent in the form of.
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Rachel Maddow
Loans for which they expect to be paid back.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
And we didn't have that honor under the Biden administration.
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Rachel Maddow
He sent money, just send it, money.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
After money after money and never had.
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Rachel Maddow
Any knowledge of ever seeing it back. Maybe 300 to $350 billion. Manners dictated that the British Prime Minister not interrupt at that point because Donald Trump was struggling his way through a teleprompter read of his formal written opening remarks at the beginning of what was supposed to be a press conference. And so those lies floated by, unhindered by reality that time. The reality is that the Biden administration did not send money to Ukraine. The Biden administration sent weapons. The Biden administration sent ammunition, all. All of it manufactured in the United States. Almost all the money spent on aid to Ukraine was spent in the United States buying the weapons and ammunition made by American workers in American factories. And again, it was less than half the amount Donald Trump says it was. And no European country expects to be paid back for the aid they've supplied to Ukraine. Imagine my joy when Donald Trump made the mistake of choosing Andrew Feinberg for the first question in the press conference. A word here about the White House press corps. You've heard more criticism of the White House press corps on this program over the years than anywhere else on television. And so when the White House press corps gets it right, I want to be the first to honor that. And Andrew Feinberg got it right today, as he has in the past, which is why Andrew Feinberg will be joining us on this program tonight. When Donald Trump made the mistake of calling on Andrew Feinberg for the first question of the press conference, he heard the best questions asked by a White House reporter this year.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Thank you. Mr. President, earlier today you told me that you believe that foreign countries pay tariffs, but Americans who are concerned about higher prices believe, as most people do, that they're paid by consumers and importers when they import things into this country. Can you explain how you came to this belief that foreign governments are paying tariffs? And for the prime minister, did you discuss with President Trump his repeated statements of desire to annex Canada? And has the king expressed any concern over the president's apparent desire to remove one of his realms from his control?
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Rachel Maddow
Wow. It doesn't get better than that. Both of those questions were perfect. And yes, sadly, Canada is part of the realm of the King of England, who unfortunately still appears Canadian currency. So once again, Donald Trump was cornered. Can you explain how you came to this belief that foreign governments are paying tariffs? That is a perfectly phrased question and Donald Trump had to be the first of the two to answer that two part question. So I'll go ahead. The first part, the tariffs are necessary because we've been treated very unfairly by many, many, many countries, including our friends, friend and foe. Donald Trump went on to speak 150 words without ever answering the question. How do you come to this belief that foreign governments are paying tariffs? And in those 150 words, he didn't say that foreign governments are paying tariffs. He didn't bother to insist that foreign governments are paying tariffs. When he got caught like that, he just talked in circles until he felt he filled up enough time ending with this. But I will tell you, it's going to make our country rich and it's going to stop us from being a laughingstock all over the world because we have been taken advantage of like no country has ever been taken advantage of. Thank you very much. Donald Trump is a laughingstock all over the world for claiming the tariffs he imposes are are paid by foreign countries instead of American consumers. If Donald Trump puts a tariff of 50% on a Samsung TV coming into this country, then you will pay 50% more for that TV. Tariffs are sales taxes. That's all they are. And the buyer pays the sales tax and the man who is a laughingstock all over the world is the only head of state in history anywhere in the world who believes he has the power to tax other countries. Because Andrew Feinberg's question about Canada to the British Prime Minister was, did you discuss with President Trump his repeated statements of his desire to annex Canada? The British Prime Minister had an easy out for that question.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
You mentioned Canada. I think you're trying to find a divide between us that doesn't exist. We're the closest of nations, and we had very good discussions today, but we didn't.
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Rachel Maddow
Yeah. So the laughingstock didn't discuss Canada with the British Prime Minister. The laughingstock president who wants to make Canada the 51st state did not discuss with the British Prime Minister whether the King of England and the British government would be willing to agree to losing Canada. From the group of British Commonwealth countries. We have every right to believe that Donald Trump was hearing for the very first time from Andrew Feinberg that there is any relationship at all between Canada and the guy who's going to appear on the next edition of their $20 bill, the King of England. The next great question asked at the press conference today was asked by a British reporter who unfortunately was just there for the day and won't be around to ask any more questions of Donald Trump. Mr. President, tomorrow you're seeing President Zelenskyy.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
To sign this deal on minerals and.
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Rachel Maddow
Energy that could be hugely important to the United States. Will you take the opportunity to apologize.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
To him for calling him a dictator.
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Rachel Maddow
While praising Vladimir Putin, who is a dictator? Needless to say, Donald Trump simply did not answer Robert Peston's question. He just said, I think we're going to have a very good meeting tomorrow. That's what happens when a cowardly person is confronted with the truth. Donald Trump all but melted in reaction to the dictator question. Are you going to apologize for calling him a dictator? While praising Vladimir Putin, who is a dictator, Donald Trump delivered the functional equivalent of speechlessness. Because Donald Trump proves in moments like that that he does not have the courage of his convictions because he has no convictions except the 34 convictions he earned in a Manhattan courtroom last year. Donald Trump doesn't believe anything. Donald Trump doesn't even believe Donald Trump. When Donald Trump calls President Zelensky a dictator, he knows he's lying and he does not believe it. And so when he's called on it as perfectly as a British reporter did today, Donald Trump's got nothing. The bluster is gone. We can only hope that the notes the other members of the White House press corps took today in. That press conference included performance notes on how Andrew Feinberg does it and how the British reporter Robert Peston does it. That's the way they should all do their jobs in the White House press corps. While Donald Trump was being humiliated in the Oval Office by the British prime minister and his own ignorance on the Senate floor, Senator Ruben Gallego said this.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
This is a war that Russia started. Ukraine did not ask for it. They did not ask to go to war with a nuclear superpower. And they did not ask for their cities to be reduced to rubble. They didn't ask for their children to be displaced and families to be torn apart. If Ukraine had its way, this war would have ended years ago. What happened at the UN Puts us on the same side as Russia and North Korea. That's not just embarrassing, it is dangerous. It sent a message to our allies and every other country that relies on the US to stand up to bullies and defend, that America can defend them and help them defend themselves, that America cannot be relied on to rightfully call out unprovoked aggression. It told them that they are on their own, that America's words means nothing.
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Rachel Maddow
Joining us now is Democratic Senator Ruben Gallaud of Arizona. He's a member of the Homeland Security Committee and the Governmental Affairs Committee. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Senator, thank you. It seems to me with the president saying the things he's saying, that voices raised on the Senate floor by you and other senators are more important than ever in the hope that they are being heard in Ukraine and elsewhere.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Absolutely. Look, when you have the administration basically turning the country's back to an 80 year relationship with Europe, a security alliance that has brought security both to America and to Europe, that had stopped the, you know, some of the most horrific wars and potentially horrific wars all overnight, it's important that US Senators, both Democrats and Republicans, they still believe in our alliances, still believe in the rule of law. They still believe that NATO is a functioning alliance that is a force of good, that we need to be out there talking about it and reminding people that what Trump is doing is not, it does not reflect the values of Americans and it does not reflect what we truly believe. We, we believe that NATO and our European allies are our allies and that Russia, China, North Korea and all these other people, all these other countries are aggressors when it comes to going against the rule of law. And the order that we have established since post World War II that has brought calm and peace, especially to Western Europe.
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Rachel Maddow
What will you be looking for in the president's meeting with President Zelensky?
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Here's the problem. We don't know because what Donald Trump does, it is so erratic that it causes so much chaos within the international community that they don't know what is going to be said one day versus another. And that type of chaos actually helps people and countries like China, like Russia, because they look and they could point especially to some countries that are trying to decide whether they're going to continue aligning with us. And, and so you can't trust the United States. You know, one day they'll be with you, the other day they'll be against you. And the fact that Donald Trump will one day call Zelenskyy a dictator and then the other day claim that he never said it is a problem, one day he'll say that we're going to help Ukraine and the other day he'll say that they owe us $350 billion worth of money that does not exist that we never gave them to begin with. But he will consistently lie for what end goal, we just don't understand it is that type of inconsistency, that type of moving back and forth, that type of really not following a North Star that actually directs American values that is going to alienate a lot of our allies and push them further away from us and sometimes unfortunately towards our enemies such as Russia and other countries.
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Rachel Maddow
We have. I want to get your reaction with your military experience to we have five Democrat and Republican former secretaries of defense formally now complaining publicly about Donald Trump's firing of generals at the Pentagon and what that means to military readiness.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Well, look, the most important thing that we have and our superpower when it comes to the military is that we have a professionalized military and we have officers and generals that are there because they are the best at what they do. And they're not there because they are of the right political party or because they have basically kiss assed the right president. When you start doing that, you're going to get some people essentially they are political DEI appointees, people that are hitting the right MAGA cues and talking to the right MAGA influencers are going to end up rising to the top of our security apparatus. But they're not actually going to have the skill set, the respect, the leadership and the experience they need to actually be able to execute and actually have the lethality that we need to make sure that we're the most, we are the most proud and most powerful military in the world. This is why it makes it very dangerous to have a politically appointed and influenced military. You're not going to get the best and the brightest. You're actually only going to draw some of the worst type of people into the military. At the end of the day, US national security is put at risk by that.
- [23:59]
Rachel Maddow
Senator Ruben Gallego, thank you very much for starting off our discussions tonight.
- [24:05]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Glasses. Thank you.
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Rachel Maddow
Coming up, the winner of tonight's Best question Asked by a White House Reporter Award will join us. That's next. Hi, my name is Patrick Adams. You may know me as Mike Ross on the TV series Suits.
- [24:23]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And I'm Sarah Rafferty and I play Donna Paulson on Suits. And we have a podcast called Sidebar.
- [24:27]
Rachel Maddow
Where every week we watch and discuss discuss an episode of the show.
- [24:30]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Because here's the thing, neither of us have really watched it.
- [24:32]
Rachel Maddow
That's true. At least until now.
- [24:34]
Lawrence O'Donnell
So we're going to cover all nine.
- [24:36]
Rachel Maddow
Seasons, share behind the scenes stories and.
- [24:38]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Talk to our co stars and friends like Gina Torres and Aaron Korsh. So look, if you love Suits, amazing.
- [24:43]
Rachel Maddow
This podcast is for you.
- [24:44]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And if you've never watched Suits, also amazing. You can join us and we'll watch it together.
- [24:49]
Rachel Maddow
I think we're going to have a lot of fun.
- [24:50]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Listen to sidebar wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget to follow the.
- [24:53]
Rachel Maddow
Show so you never miss an episode.
- [24:57]
Lawrence O'Donnell
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Commercial Insurance Business owners Meet Progressive Insurance. They make it easy to get discounts on commercial auto insurance and find coverages to grow with your business Quote in as little as 7 minutes@progressivecommercial.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company coverage provided and serviced by affiliated and third party insurers. Discounts and coverage selections not available in all states or situations. It's time to have your High Five moment with High Five Casino. The top social casino where the action and real prizes never stop. Fun spins and big wins are right at your fingertips. With over a thousand games including High Five Casino exclusives, High Five Casino is always free to play with free coins given out every four hours. Sign up today for a free welcome offer that can get you spinning and winning right away. Visit high5casino.com high5casino no purchase necessary. Void where prohibited by law. Must be 21 years or older. Terms and conditions apply. During Mrs. Thatcher's reign, there was the miner strike, wasn't there? Why was it considered minor?
- [26:07]
Rachel Maddow
It wasn't considered minor. It was a strike by miners. People who go, you know, underground and dig out coal.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Right? What's a mine?
- [26:18]
Rachel Maddow
So A mine is the underground construction where you dig out the coal.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Right. What's coal?
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Rachel Maddow
That is Robert Peston, the political editor of Britain's itv, appearing on a British comedy chat show today at Donald Trump's press conference with the British Prime Minister. Robert Peston wasn't joking when he asked about Donald Trump's next meeting with Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Will you take the opportunity to apologize to him for calling him a dictator while praising Vladimir Putin, who is a dictator? Donald Trump, of course, didn't answer the question. He spoke some words that had nothing to do with the question in the place where the answer was supposed to go. That question has been sitting there for any member of the White House press corps to ask Donald Trump. For the eight days since Donald Trump called President Zelensky a dictator, which is, of course, a vicious Trump lie, the White House press corps has never been better represented than they were today when Donald Trump made the mistake of calling on Andrew Feinberg to ask the first question. In the press conference earlier today, you.
- [27:36]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Told me that you believe that foreign countries pay tariffs, but Americans who are concerned about higher prices believe, as most people do, that they're paid by consumers and importers when they import things into this country. Can you explain how you came to this belief that foreign governments are paying tariffs?
- [27:59]
Rachel Maddow
And as we already showed you, Donald Trump did not answer that question. Joining us now is Andrew Feinberg, White House correspondent for the Independent. Andrew, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I think I hear the sound of applause out there in the audience out there across the country for finally trying to penetrate the tariff question with Donald Trump. And I really love this phrasing where you said to him, can you explain how you came to this belief that foreign governments are paying tariffs? If he had answered that one, that would have really been quite illuminating.
- [28:36]
Lawrence O'Donnell
I would have liked for him to have answered and explained it, because it's very hard to explain how he keeps saying this, that tariffs are something that are charged to foreign governments, foreign countries, as if they are tribute paid for the privilege of accessing American markets. Of course, this isn't true. He's been saying it for years. And I felt that given the concerns about rising inflation from the tariffs that he's threatening to impose and imposing, that. That he answer the question, how did.
- [29:13]
Rachel Maddow
You get lucky and get the first question? It looked random to me that he just pointed out there. And it was you.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Yeah. Today I was one of the reporters that were part of the press pool. There's a bit of controversy swirling about who is putting the pools together right now. But I won't get into that. And as a result, I was in the front row. I caught his eye and he pointed to me. And so I asked the question. It was that simple.
- [29:41]
Rachel Maddow
I want to show again the other question that you asked, which was a question to the British prime minister, but of course, it was about Donald Trump. And this is about Canada. Let's take a look at this.
- [29:53]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And for the prime minister, did you discuss with President Trump his repeated statements of desire to annex Canada? And has the king expressed any concern over the president's apparent desire to remove one of his realms from his control?
- [30:17]
Rachel Maddow
And, Andrew, I have to say I have the feeling Donald Trump didn't know what you were talking about, that he has no idea that there is any kind of official relationship between Britain and Canada.
- [30:32]
Lawrence O'Donnell
I think you might be right. I don't want to get into the president's head, but I know that when he first started doing this, shortly before he took office, I thought it was a bit strange. And when he kept doing it after he was in office for a second term, I approached multiple White House officials to ask, is there any concern that what he's doing is going to cause tensions with the British, since Canada and the United Kingdom share a head of state and multiple White House officials did not know what I was talking about. I mean, it's a bit of niche knowledge, I suppose. I do work for a British newspaper. But if you're working in the White House, I feel like you should know those things.
- [31:20]
Rachel Maddow
I think an awful lot of people, all you have to do is watch the crown if you're really behind on it. Andrew Feinberg, thank you very much for doing the job the way it's supposed to be done. And thank you very much for joining us here tonight.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Thanks for having me.
- [31:33]
Rachel Maddow
Thank you. Coming up today, a federal judge declared a Trump order to fire employees illegal. That's next. A federal judge in California this evening ordered the Trump administration to rescind a memo ordering agencies to fire probationary employees. Judge William Alsop of the Northern District of California said from the bench that the the memo was, quote, illegal and should be stopped. Rescinded. Judge Allsup said the Office of Personnel Management does not have any authority whatsoever under any statute in the history of the universe to hire and fire employees within another agency. It can hire its own employees, yes, can fire them, but it cannot order or direct some other agency to do so. Judge Allsup called the employees Donald Trump was trying to Fire the, quote, lifeblood of our government. They come in at the low level and they work their way up. And that's how we renew ourselves and reinvent ourselves. Elon Musk, the South African who moved to Canada and then to the United States and has repeatedly proven he knows absolutely nothing about American history or American law, posted this very un American thought on social media. The only way to restore rule of the people in America is to impeach judges. No one is above the law, including judges. Turning our discussion now is Congressman Daniel Goldman, a member of the House Oversight Committee and the House Homeland Security Committee. He was the chief investigator in the first impeachment of Donald Trump and is a former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York. Congressman Goldman, let me begin with your reaction to what Elon Musk said about impeaching judges.
- [33:38]
Lawrence O'Donnell
It's consistent with what he said all along, which is the typical authoritarian, invincible, I am holier than thou view that he clearly has, which is that the laws only apply when they are in favor of him and they support him. And if they go against him, then the laws should not apply. It's shared, a shared sentiment by Donald Trump. But the reality is that Judge Allsup is exactly right, not just on the law, but critically, I think, Lawrence, what is not getting talked about enough is how important federal government employees are to our nation. Not only to our national security, which is absolutely true, but to the proper functioning of all of our government agencies that feed Americans, that provide health care to Americans, that keep our air clean, that keep our water, are safe, and that keep all of us safe. And those probationary employees are often in very high level programs designed to train them to then become experts in these areas. If you get rid of those employees, you are getting rid of the best and brightest that come through our federal government. And I can tell you, as someone who worked 10 years in the federal government as a career, career public employee, as a prosecutor myself, that there are some of the very best and brightest that work for the federal government and do so as true American patriots.
- [35:06]
Rachel Maddow
Let's listen to what Hakeem Jeffries, your New York colleague and leader of the Democrats in the House of Representatives, said about something you might want to look at if you're looking for wasteful spending in government.
- [35:20]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Elon Musk has about 8 million in federal contracts per day. Per day. The average Social Security recipient in this country receives $65 per day. If Elon Musk and House Republicans are interested in identifying waste, fraud and abuse, start with his contracts. If this was really a serious effort.
- [35:55]
Rachel Maddow
So far, Elon Musk hasn't found any waste, fraud and abuse in his contracts.
- [36:02]
Lawrence O'Donnell
No. Shocking right that $13 billion of government contracts, somehow completely legitimate, all necessary. Even though there was some reporting that this administration inflated a line item retroactively from the Biden budget for Tesla cars from about $500,000 to $400 million. That's just reporting. We don't know about that. But the conflicts of interest, Lawrence, are astounding. And now there's reporting that StarLink, Elon Musk Co. May get a take over a contract of $2.4 billion with the FAA. This is corruption. This is corruption, pure and simple. Donald Trump is turning over the purse of the United States, giving it from Congress, which has the power of the purse, to Elon Musk, who has his own, his own interest, his own business interests, and he's making the decisions. There's no possible way he can know anything that he's cutting is actually waste, fraud and abuse because that requires some time and some investigation. And he's not doing it. He's identifying words that he doesn't like and he's cutting those programs and it is hurting the American people.
- [37:18]
Rachel Maddow
Congressman Dan Goldman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
- [37:23]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Thank you, Lawrence.
- [37:23]
Rachel Maddow
Thank you. If you had to save one item, you just could save one thing from your home. What would it be? In a beautifully written new column, Jonathan Capehart shared the story of a Washington Post intern and how important his work shirt is to him. You will be convinced of that importance when you hear Jonathan Capehart's story when he joins us next.
- [37:59]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen. You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are. Download the SiriusXM app for over 425 channels of AD, free music, sports, entertainment and more. Subscribe now and get 3 months free offer details apply. High Five Casino lets you play your favorite slot and live table games like Blackjack with the chance to redeem for real cash prizes. High Five Casino has a giant selection of over 1200 games, including hundreds of exclusive games only found on High Five Casino. It's always free to play and free coins are given out every four hours. Ready to have your own high five moment? Visit high five casino.com that's high the number five casino.com no purchase necessary void where prohibited by law. Must be 21 years or older. Terms and conditions apply. Oh my God. It's the coolest thing ever.
- [39:02]
Rachel Maddow
Hey guys, have you heard of Goldbelly?
- [39:05]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Well, check this out.
- [39:06]
Rachel Maddow
It's this amazing site where they ship the most iconic famous foods from restaurants across the country, anywhere nationwide.
- [39:13]
Lawrence O'Donnell
I've never found a more perfect gift than food. They ship Chicago deep dish pizza, New York bagels, Maine lobster rolls and even.
- [39:19]
Rachel Maddow
Ina Garten's famous cakes.
- [39:21]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Seriously.
- [39:22]
Rachel Maddow
So if you're looking for a gift for the food lover in your Life.
- [39:25]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Head to goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with promo code Gift.
- [39:34]
Rachel Maddow
The Los Angeles fires last month got within a couple of blocks of my house in Los Angeles. I was in New York when the fires broke out and someone volunteered to go to my house and grab a few easily carried valuables. When I was asked what I wanted to save, I paused. There's nothing of dollar value in the house. So the question was, what do I value the most? That thought had never crossed my mind before. Now I had seconds to think about it. I asked for my oldest possession, my baseball glove, the one I use on my high school and college teams. Take a second now to think about what that might be for you. What would you ask for? What is the object that is most valuable to you? This week in the Washington Post, in a beautiful and profound piece of writing, Jonathan Capehart made my baseball glove feel like nothing compared to a shirt that created what he called, quote, one of the most powerful black history moments I've ever encountered. He told the story of Juan Ben Jr. An intern at the Washington Post, coming to him for advice. Quote the first thing I noticed when Juan knocked on my glass door was his crisp, tan short sleeve shirt with his name stitched into a patch on the chest. An old school work shirt that struck me as appropriately Gen Z retro. Can we just take the words off the shirt so that we can see the shirt as we're reading this part of the story? Juan told me about his family in Tennessee and spoke with great reverence about his father. That he did so in the past tense led me to ask what had happened to him. Ben Sr. Died in a car accident 10 years ago this month when Ben Jr. Was only 13 years old. As Juan told me about his father, my eyes focused more intently on his retro shirt. There was the brown stitching of Juan in the nameplate on the right. On the left in brown stitching was Knox County Schools Maintenance. What I thought was a kitschy vintage store find was in reality Ben Sr's work shirt. He had worked in maintenance for the Knox county school system for 37 years, and his son was telling me how he wears his father's clothes as a way of keeping him close. I got chills, the kind you get when you're bearing witness to something powerful. Sitting before me was the arc of one black family's history. Juan Ben Sr. Never went to college, his path not extending beyond eastern Tennessee. But his son was wearing his shirt throughout the offices of one of the nation's preeminent news organizations in Washington, dc. When you're black in elite spaces, you're always bringing your family and ancestors with you. Even if they are not physically with you, you feel them with you because their sacrifices are what propelled you to those spaces. Black people make history in this country every day through loud protests and massive marches, through powerful prose and stage performances that give voice to our experience. But more often than not, black history is made more quietly by acts like wearing your late father's shirt to work. Joining us now is Jonathan Capehart, MSNBC host and associate editor of the Washington Post. Jonathan, thank you very much for being here tonight. And thank you so much for this story that really, I urge everyone to read. It will it will send your mind into places where it might not otherwise go. What did you feel when writing about this?
- [43:48]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Well, one, thank you very much, Lawrence, for reading so much of the piece and really getting to the heart of it. When I sat there and experienced it, I wrote and it was true. I felt chills. And I was ever since then trying to figure out, I need to write about this. I want to write about this. When can I write about this? And it didn't occur to me until about a week ago that this is the perfect time. It's Black History Month. And then in doing my reporting, Lawrence, Juan Ben Sr. Died in that car accident 10 years ago tomorrow. And so when I found that, when I found that out, to me it was the universe saying this story needs to be told. Especially now when all sorts of efforts doing away with DEI and looking down on people of color in whatever position that they're in, that Juan Ben Jr's story needed to be told. Because were it not for the mindset and the focus that is at the centerpiece of diversity, equity, inclusion, Juan Ben Jr. Probably wouldn't have been inside the Washington Post. Were it not for DEI decades earlier, I might not be might not have been in the Washington Post, but because of the progress that this country has made and that is being eroded by this current administration. Those efforts made it possible for me to be there for Juan Jr to knock on the door and say, hey, can I ask your advice? And to be in that moment and to focus on Juan, Juan Ben Sr. Shirt and to realize the history that was sitting in that chair across from me, not just in his son, but in his work shirt there in that space. It was just yet another reminder that one when you are black in elite spaces, the one thing I regret not putting in there when you are black in elite spaces, you know, and more often than not, you are the only one in those spaces or one of very few, which makes a moment like that with Juan Ben Jr that much more powerful.
- [46:10]
Rachel Maddow
Jonathan, I'm so glad you got to expand on the piece here tonight. Jonathan Capehart, thank you for this beautiful and important reporting. Thank you for joining us.
- [46:19]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Thanks so much, Lawrence.
- [46:21]
Rachel Maddow
We'll be right back. Jonathan Capehart gets tonight's last word. Hey, friends, Ted Danson here, and I want to let you know about my new podcast. It's called where everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes doing this podcast is a chance.
- [46:43]
Lawrence O'Donnell
For me and my good bud Woody.
- [46:45]
Rachel Maddow
To reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years ago.
- [46:48]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Plus, we're introducing each other to the.
- [46:50]
Rachel Maddow
Friends we've met since, like Jane Fonda.
- [46:52]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Conan O'Brien, Eric Andre, Mary Steenburgen, my.
- [46:56]
Rachel Maddow
Wife and Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
- [46:59]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And trust me, it's always a great.
- [47:00]
Rachel Maddow
Hang when Woody's there, so why wait?
- [47:03]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Listen to where everybody knows your name.
- [47:05]
Rachel Maddow
Wherever you get your podcasts.