Lawrence: Trump humiliated globally while Musk live-tweets Trump's Oval Office 'stupidity festival'

Summary

Podcast Title: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Episode: Lawrence: Trump Humiliated Globally While Musk Live-Tweets Trump's Oval Office 'Stupidity Festival'
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell, MSNBC
Release Date: June 6, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves into the tumultuous political landscape shaped by former President Donald Trump and tech magnate Elon Musk. Drawing from his extensive experience in politics and media, O'Donnell presents a detailed analysis of the ongoing feud between Trump and Musk, highlighting its implications for American politics and global perceptions.

Trump’s Global Humiliation

O'Donnell opens the discussion by highlighting the series of humiliating encounters Donald Trump has faced on the global stage. On his 136th day in office, Trump found himself seated alongside Germany’s Chancellor Friedrich Mears in the Oval Office, only to be further embarrassed by Musk’s live-tweeting antics.

Lawrence O'Donnell ([01:29]): "Donald Trump was humiliated once again today in the Oval Office on the world stage, sitting in exactly the same humiliation chair where he has been repeatedly humiliated by visiting heads of state from Europe."

O'Donnell criticizes Trump’s lack of awareness and competence, describing his demeanor as "juvenile goofiness and sheer ignorance."

O'Donnell ([01:28]): "Donald Trump is so stupid, he didn't realize the French president sitting beside him was humiliating him when he was the first one to visit during this presidency."

D-Day Anniversary Controversy

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Trump's inappropriate remarks regarding the anniversary of D-Day. O'Donnell recounts how Trump's laughter about this solemn event was met with stern corrections from Chancellor Mears.

Friedrich Mears ([06:08]): "When the Americans once ended a war in Europe... This was the liberation of my country from Nazi dictatorship."

Donald Trump ([06:32]): "That was not a pleasant day for you."

O'Donnell vehemently criticizes Trump’s disrespectful attitude towards a pivotal moment in history, emphasizing the gravity of D-Day and its impact on World War II.

O'Donnell ([09:37]): "Donald Trump is the first president of the United States to say that D-Day was not a great day for you."

The Trump-Musk Feud

The heart of the episode revolves around the escalating conflict between Donald Trump and Elon Musk. O'Donnell details how Musk, leveraging his vast influence and wealth, has publicly criticized Trump, including calls for his impeachment.

Elon Musk ([09:37]): "I just can't take it anymore... Donald Trump's a liar."

In response, Trump retaliates by blaming Musk for political setbacks, suggesting that without Musk’s contributions, he would have easily secured victories in key elections.

Donald Trump ([09:59]): "Elon knew the inner workings of this bill better than almost anybody... He only developed the problem when he found out that we're going to have to cut the EV mandate because that's billions and billions of dollars and it really is unfair."

O'Donnell interprets this feud as more than a personal spat, viewing it as a battle that could significantly disrupt American politics.

O'Donnell ([12:26]): "Is it time to create a new political party in America that actually represents the 80% in the middle?"

Steve Bannon’s Involvement

Steve Bannon, a known Trump ally, enters the fray by calling for investigations into Musk’s past, including his immigration status and alleged drug abuse. O'Donnell highlights these developments as part of Trump’s broader strategy to undermine Musk.

O'Donnell ([10:34]): "Steve Bannon is now calling for Elon Musk to be deported. All out madness has broken out in Trump world with Donald Trump at the center of the madness."

Implications for American Politics

O'Donnell discusses the potential consequences of this high-profile feud, suggesting that it could lead to a realignment in American political parties and influence future elections.

Congressman Jamie Raskin ([23:19]): "Donald Trump wanted Musk's hundreds of millions of dollars spent on his behalf in the presidential campaign... now their fallout reveals ethical lapses."

Additionally, retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling provides insight into how international allies perceive the internal chaos within the U.S., particularly concerning military collaborations and defense contracts.

Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling ([30:54]): "If President Trump thinks he's manipulating his best friend, President Putin... he does not understand the Russian culture and he certainly doesn't understand the Russian personality."

Humanitarian Concerns Linked to Policy Decisions

Shifting focus, O'Donnell addresses the unintended humanitarian crises stemming from policy decisions influenced by both Trump and Musk. Referencing a Washington Post report, he highlights the destruction of $12 million worth of contraceptives and HIV prevention medications intended for developing countries.

Dr. Atul Gawande ([37:06]): "The shutdown was incredibly abrupt and unprecedented... It's causing... the counts of deaths already are in the tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands."

O'Donnell underscores the failure to reallocate these critical supplies, leading to potential loss of life and increased instability in vulnerable regions.

Notable Quotes

• Lawrence O'Donnell ([01:28]): "Donald Trump is so stupid, he didn't realize the French president sitting beside him was humiliating him..."
• Friedrich Mears ([06:08]): "This was the liberation of my country from Nazi dictatorship..."
• Elon Musk ([09:37]): "I just can't take it anymore... Donald Trump's a liar."
• Jamie Raskin ([23:19]): "Donald Trump wanted Musk's hundreds of millions of dollars spent on his behalf in the presidential campaign..."
• Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling ([30:54]): "If President Trump thinks he's manipulating his best friend, President Putin... he does not understand the Russian culture..."

Conclusion

Lawrence O’Donnell’s episode serves as a critical examination of the deteriorating relationship between Donald Trump and Elon Musk, portraying it as a microcosm of broader political instability in the United States. Through incisive analysis and expert guest insights, the episode underscores the far-reaching implications of personal vendettas on national and international affairs. O'Donnell warns of the potential for lasting damage to political institutions and global alliances, urging listeners to remain vigilant in the face of such high-stakes conflicts.

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This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the podcast episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the full transcript.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Dr. Atul Gawande]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Dr. Atul Gawande]

Now back to your regularly scheduled listening.

[Jen Psaki]

Now it's time for the Last word with Lawrence o' Donnell. Hey, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Hey, Jen. It's so clear in those signing ceremonies of the executive orders, he was always being told at that moment, here's what you're signing. He obviously had no idea and no way of even checking if that's what he was signing. Correct.

[Jen Psaki]

And he didn't even know he had signed something in the earlier clip. Go figure.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Go figure. Big surprise that Donald Trump isn't quite sure what's happening in the Oval Office.

[Jen Psaki]

Right, right, I know, I know. You point that out to us nearly every night very helpfully.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, well, that's. It's the way he does business. It's the most obvious nuthouse we've ever seen. And him trying to point the finger at others is so absurd. It could not be more absurd, especially today.

[Jen Psaki]

That's why I wanted to show it for no other reason. You know, Lawrence, people should know. They should be aware.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, I get it. Thanks, Jen.

[Jen Psaki]

Thanks, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. And on the 136th day of his presidency, the wheels came off the Trump crazy train. Donald Trump was humiliated once again today in the Oval Office on the world stage, sitting in exactly the same humiliation chair where he has been repeatedly humiliated by visiting heads of state from Europe. Today, it was the German chancellor's turn to sit beside Donald Trump and humiliate him. But that got overshadowed by someone who was not even in the room. Today, Donald Trump became the first president in history to get humiliated by two people at the same time, with one of them not even being in the room. The richest person in the world, who Donald Trump now claims he fired last week, was live tweeting Donald Trump's stupidity festival in the Oval Office, saying, among other things, Donald Trump should be impeached. Donald Trump is by far the stupidest person any European head of state has ever had to meet. And Donald Trump is so stupid, he didn't realize the French president sitting beside him was humiliating him when he was the first one to visit during this presidency. The next one was the British Prime Minister who humiliated Donald Trump without Donald Trump realizing it. Of course, Donald Trump humiliated himself. And when President Volodymyr Zelenskyy humiliated Donald Trump during their meeting in which Donald Trump lost control, egged on by his buffoonish vice president, while President Zelensky showed the world what courage and leadership actually looked like, Germany's Chancellor Friedrich Mears had to do what every other head of state, including South Africa's president, had to do in the Oval Office. Which is of course, to correct the unlimited stupidity of Donald Trump. You will see that correction of Trump's stupidity in a moment. And then of course, we will turn to what has become the Musk versus Trump war. This is not a feud. This is the world's two craziest, most dangerous rich people, each trying to find a way now to completely destroy the other. Not feud with the other, destroy the other. Elon Musk is now calling for the impeachment of Donald Trump. Donald Trump is now calling for cutting off all government contracts with Elon Musk's companies. Steve Bannon, Trump ally, is now calling for Elon Musk to be deported. All out madness has broken out in Trump world with Donald Trump at the center of the madness, causing all of the madness. But before we turn to that, we'll focus on that moment in the Oval Office today. That was another moment of disgrace for Donald Trump. Donald Trump showed his juvenile goofiness and sheer ignorance when he laughed, yes, laughed about tomorrow's anniversary of D Day, thereby taking his new place in history as the first president in history to laugh about D Day. A day when no one in the Trump family was killed, but 2,501American soldiers were killed storming the beaches of Normandy on this country's most heroic and history changing single day of warfare. US Army General Dwight Eisenhower, who was in command that day, later becoming president, Eisenhower made the brilliant and difficult decision to choose 6-6-1944 for the D Day invasion of France at the English Channel, which France being then controlled by Nazi Germany. The success of the D Day invasion was the beginning of the end of World War II and the beginning of the end of the reign of terror and genocide in Germany by Adolf Hitler, who many German generals had already been plotting to assassinate before D Day and after D Day, the German Chancellor brought up the D Day anniversary as an example of the kind of Allied effort that is needed now to save Ukraine.

[Friedrich Mears]

We all are looking for measures and for instruments to bring this terrible war to an end. And may I remind you that we are having June 6 tomorrow. This is D Day anniversary. When the Americans once ended a war in Europe And I think this is in your hand in specific, in ours.

[Donald Trump]

That was not a pleasant day for you.

[Friedrich Mears]

No, that was not a pleasant swell in the long run, Mr. President. This was the liberation of my country from Nazi dictatorship. And we know what we owe you. But this is the reason why I'm saying that America is again in a very strong position to do something on this war and ending this war. So let's talk about what we can do jointly, and we are ready to do what we can. And you know that we gave support to Ukraine and that we are looking for more pressure on Russia. The European Union did, and we should talk about that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That vulgar lump of a man who just laughed about D Day kept a book by Adolf Hitler at his bedside, according to his first wife. That Hitler reader is the first president of the United States to say that D Day was not a great day. Donald Trump said this was not a great day for you. That's because Donald Trump has no idea what Hitler was doing to every German soldier, to every citizen of Germany. The generals weren't the only ones who thought that Hitler was insane by that time. And so the German chancellor had to explain to the ignorant president that it was no fun living under the madman dictatorship of Adolf Hitler and that D Day was the beginning of the liberation of Germany from Nazi dictatorship. The people who were suffering the worst on D Day were not in battle. They were in Hitler's death camps. And D Day meant that some of them were going to survive. Some of them would not starve to death. By the time General Eisenhower's troops liberated the death camps, some of them would not have already been put to death. Some of them would. Hang on. You can spend a lifetime hearing people make references to D Day, people who were alive at the time, people who remember it, and people born long after D Day and never see someone smile or laugh about it, say anything about it that makes them laugh. That's the kind of disrespectful, ignorant behavior that you can only get from a Hitler reader like Donald Trump. Donald Trump suffered in silence for three days after Elon Musk attacked him, calling Donald Trump's Republican budget bill a disgusting abomination. But today, almost exactly three days later to the hour when Elon Musk attacked him and issued his first tweet against Donald Trump that began with the words, I just can't take it anymore. Today, prompted by a reporter, Donald Trump finally broke his cowardly silence. And then the insanity really started.

[Donald Trump]

Look, you know I've always liked Elon, and it's always very surprised. You saw the words he had for me, the words. And he hasn't said anything about me that's bad. I'd rather have him criticize me than the bill because the bill is incredible.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Donald Trump got his wish. Elon Musk decided to criticize him directly.

[Donald Trump]

Elon knew the inner workings of this bill better than almost anybody sitting here. Better than you people. He knew everything about it. He had no problem with it. All of a sudden he had a And he only developed the problem when he found out that we're going to have to cut the EV mandate because that's billions and billions of dollars and it really is unfair. He knew it better than almost anybody and he never had a problem until right after he left. And if you saw the statements he made about me, which I'm sure you can get very easily, it's very fresh on tape. He said the most beautiful things about me and he hasn't said bad about me personally, but I'm sure that'll be next.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Well, he got that right. Elon Musk then live tweeted, whatever. Keep the EV solar incentive cuts in the bill even though no oil and gas subsidies are touched. Very unfair. But ditched the mountain of disgusting pork in the bill. Elon Musk did not actually identify the so called pork in the bill. He also denied that he knew what was in the bill, saying, this bill was never shown to me even once and was passed in the dead of night so fast that almost no one in Congress could even read it. Elon Musk tweeted that over a video of Donald Trump speaking in the Oval Office minutes before Elon Musk tweeted it. And then Elon Musk told Donald Trump what Elon Musk believes Donald Trump owes him. Without me, Trump would have lost the election, Dems would control the House and Republicans would be 5149 in the Senate. Such ingratitude. And that is a perfectly reasonable political argument, perfectly reasonable political case to make about how that election was won and lost. We've all spent our lives hearing how much money matters in politics. Money is everything in politics and in campaigns. And that makes it entirely likely that when the richest person in the world decides to make the biggest political contribution in history, it would make a difference, a decisive difference. Donald Trump, in the Oval Office with the German chancellor beside him, humiliated himself by desperately insisting to the world that he would have won without Elon Musk.

[Donald Trump]

I would have won Pennsylvania easily anyway.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We'll never know. We'll never know if Donald Trump could have won that election without all of Elon Musk's money. The biggest political contributor in history. Imagine what would have happened if Elon Musk sent that money in the other direction. We don't know. And then Elon Musk threatened to create a new political party, a political party that would obviously pull votes away from the Republican Party. Is it time to create a new political party in America that actually represents the 80% in the middle? There aren't 80% in the middle, of course, but there are enough Elon Musk followers who could turn against Republicans and give the House of Representatives to the Democrats next year, along with the Senate and the presidency in the election after that. That's some of what is at stake in the most insane public outburst that has ever occurred between a president of the United States and his biggest money contributor. Donald Trump then took to his social media site and posted. Elon was wearing thin. I asked him to leave. I took away his EV mandate that forced everyone to buy electric cars that nobody else wanted, that he knew for months I was going to do, and he just went crazy, exclamation point. So there's Donald Trump saying, I asked him to leave. That's Donald Trump saying he fired Elon Musk. That's what we were reporting on this program last night. White House sources indicating, by the way, none of them believable, just as Donald Trump is not believable, that Elon Musk was fired. We will never know. Did Donald Trump fire Elon Musk because Donald Trump's a pathological liar. Elon Musk is a pathological liar. But does Elon Musk feel that he was fired? Maybe. Donald Trump was also claiming in that idiotic tweet that you. We were all forced to buy electric cars. We who have. I am among them, who have never purchased an electric car. And then Donald Trump says the other guy is crazy. Puts it all in capital letters, the other guy's crazy. Craziest president in history says the other guy's crazy. To which Elon Musk says what I've been saying about almost everything Donald Trump has said since he first opened his mouth in 2011 about President Obama's birth certificate. Elon Musk said, such an obvious lie. So sad. And so there we are, day 136 of the Trump presidency. Elon Musk calling Donald Trump what I have been calling Donald Trump since 2011 on this program. A liar. Donald Trump has been a liar every single day of his political career. And Elon Musk has probably known that. And Elon Musk has done almost as much lying about political issues in America as Donald Trump. And so it's war between Musk and Trump. Steve Bannon, a Trump loyalist who was fired from the first Trump White House but served a longer run in that White House than Elon Musk did, said people, including myself, are recommending to the President that he pull every contract associated with Elon Musk and that major investigations start immediately. One, into his immigration status, his security clearance and his history of drug abuse. Two, into his relationship with the Chinese Communist Party, including, but not limited to trying to force a briefing of highly top secret war plans with China at the Pentagon, Three, and into his involvement with attempting to get President Xi to the inauguration. So now Trump world wants to investigate Elon Musk. Donald Trump announced a completely ridiculous investigation, apparently to find out how old Joe Biden was when he was President of the United States. But the Biden investigation news did not turn out to be the investigation news of the day, because Trump cheerleaders now want to investigate Elon Musk. Donald Trump then posted, the easiest way to save money in our budget, billions and billions of dollars, is to terminate Elon's governmental subsidies and contracts. That was Donald Trump's way of trying to shut up Elon Musk. That was Donald Trump's big shot at Elon Musk. That was his biggest shot. Shut down the government contracts and Donald Trump's biggest shot of the day against Elon Musk. And his war against Elon Musk did not work because after Donald Trump threatened to cut off all of Musk's government contracts, Elon Musk then went Twitter nuclear. Time to drop the really big bomb. Real Donald Trump is in the Epstein files. That is the real reason they have not been made public. Have a nice day. Djt, exclamation point. And just to top that off, Elon Musk said yes to a follower of his who said president versus Elon. Who wins? My money's on Elon. Trump should be impeached and JD Vance should replace him. Yes, said Elon Musk to that impeach Donald Trump. And so they have both fired their biggest shots at each other. The question for Donald Trump, who spent the last three days in fearful silence about Elon Musk, is can he crush the richest person in the world or should he beg for a truce with Elon Musk? The Epstein files are of course, the criminal investigative files on Donald Trump's old friend, the pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, who killed himself in prison. Twitter is now filled with the video of that dancing friendship with that pedophile thanks to Elon Musk pushing the video of the Trump Epstein friendship on Twitter. You can expect to see more and more of that on Twitter. And so we have no idea what's coming next. We have no idea what happens tomorrow. But we do know that Donald Trump will be humiliated and we do know that Elon Musk will continue to suffer huge financial losses as he did today with the Tesla stock price crashing, losing 152 billion in market value thanks to Elon Musk's madness today, which will win him no fans among good and decent people who oppose Donald Trump and who will never buy a Tesla again because they will never forget what Elon Musk did with the money that they paid him for their Teslas. They will never forget what Elon Musk did during his worship Donald Trump period. Good and decent people will never forget Bill Gates description of Elon Musk as the world's richest man killing the world's poorest children. Because that is exactly what Elon Musk did and what he's continuing to do tonight. And those children are dying tonight because of Elon Musk. And so two madmen are at war and we have no idea what happens next. But we can only hope that it helps derail the mission of non stop cruelty that the Trump White House is visiting on this country and the world every day. We'll be right back. MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of the Briefing.

[Jen Psaki]

We've never experienced a moment like this in our country. And it leaves us all with a choice. Are we gonna speak out or are we gonna be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents. I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies. You don't need to be hopeless. We have our voices and I will continue using mine.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The Briefing with Jen Psaki Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSN.

[Jamie Raskin]

I suppose it was in the stars. Everybody was predicting it when it first began. You've got two gentlemen with gargantuan egos and both appearing to suffer from malignant narcissistic personality disorder. And they basically converged around a common platform of plunder and pillage of the American people. And now both of them are telling the truth about the other. So it's a, a happy moment for America that we can finally get to the bottom of things like the Jeffrey Epstein files. And all of the billions of dollars of government contracts that Elon Musk has.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And here's something you won't be hearing again from the stupidest commerce secretary in history. You want to learn something on this show tonight? Buy Tesla. It's unbelievable that this guy's stock is this cheap. It'll never be this cheap again. When people understand the things he's, the robots he's building, the technology he's building, people are going to be dreaming of today and Jesse Waters and thinking, gosh, I should have bought Elon Musk's stock. If you take your stock advice from the freaks on fox, you are in trouble tonight. Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland. He is the top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee. Congressman Raskin, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I just want to let you expand on the remarks you were making on the steps of the Capitol today and your reaction to everything we saw in this chaos and madness in Trump world.

[Jamie Raskin]

Well, it's remarkable to me that Trump and Musk are essentially accusing each other of crimes, or at least very serious civil transgressions. Musk is saying Trump should be impeached. Trump is saying that Musk should be cut off from his federal government contracts. But when they were buddy, buddy, they were perfectly happy to overlook all of these crimes against the government of the United States and against the people. But now suddenly they've had a falling out and they have pangs of conscience, and now they're willing to tell the truth about each other. That's a pretty remarkable statement about their ethical performance in office. But in any event, it's clear now to the country that it was a purely transactional relationship. Donald Trump wanted Musk's hundreds of millions of dollars spent on his behalf in the presidential campaign, wanted his influence on Twitter during the presidential campaign. And Musk wanted Donald Trump's forbearance and indulgence in collecting billions of dollars in federal government contracts and cementing his hold over different positions within national security and defense and to help implant his technology around, that now has come apart for both of them. I think that part of it on Trump's part is that just like he feels liberated by the Supreme Court and he feels that he can act with complete immunity and impunity because of the Supreme Court pulling a rabbit out of the hat on the presidential immunity doctrine, I think he feels emboldened and encouraged by the Trump business's move into the crypto world and the fact that he's been making around a billion dollars a month. And he feels perhaps not so dependent on Elon Musk, for example, to defeat any Republican incumbent who would dare to break from Donald Trump. Trump figures he's got the money to do it himself. He and his family are just raking in billions of dollars through the various schemes and scams at this point. And Musk, presumably he's just got so much information on Donald Trump at this point, he doesn't have to worry about him. So there's no honor among thieves. And what we've seen from both of them is really plunder and pillage of the American people. And you know, the good news, I would just say is that, Lawrence, is that 14 million Americans are facing being thrown off of their Medicaid. Millions of people are facing being cut off of nutritional assistance. And although that wasn't enough to stop the Republicans from doing what they were about to do, perhaps this blow up within the Republican Party ranks will make them think twice about doing that and adding another two and a half or $3 trillion to the national debt that Trump drove up in his last administration.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And to be clear, Elon Musk has no problem with people being thrown off Medicaid. Elon Musk probably would like to abolish the entire Medicaid program, the entire Medicare program, so that, that, that doesn't, that's nowhere near his so called objections to this bill. But what does it do in the House of Representatives if the Senate doesn't pass the identical House bill as it's written right now, that bill's going to have to come back to the House and make its way through the House again. It made it through by what, one vote before? Can Elon Musk take a couple of votes away if it has to get through the House again?

[Jamie Raskin]

Oh, I think the dozens of our Republican colleagues are running scared because there's been such a massive popular reaction against the attempt to dismantle Medicaid and throw people off of their health care and their access to food. Some of them may not want to articulate it that way. They might prefer to talk about deficits or debt. But of course they were willing to vote for it before, but now they're looking for any excuse to get off the train. I don't think that this bill can survive given the current political dynamics within the gop. It just gives them way too many exit ramps to get off and they understand the political danger that they're in. I went to a bunch of Republican districts to do town halls with other Democratic colleagues and there's an absolute fury out there towards Republicans in the swing districts.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Congressman Jamie Raskin, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Jamie Raskin]

You bet. Thanks for having me, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up today in the Oval Office in front of the German chancellor, Donald Trump in effect, told Vladimir Putin to just keep fighting his war against Ukraine. That's next. Introducing the WEEKNIGHT on msnbc, join hosts Alicia Menendez, Michael Steele and Simone Sanders Townshend for a spirited conversation challenging each other and our leaders about the biggest issues of the day. It's about knowing what you are for, who you are for. That's, that's what politics is about. It's engagement.

[Jen Psaki]

We are going to dive deeper into the legal side of today's breaking news.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The weeknight, Monday through Friday at 7:00pm Eastern on MSNBC. Here is Donald Trump today, in effect, telling Vladimir Putin to just keep fighting his war against Ukraine.

[Donald Trump]

Sometimes you see two young children fighting like crazy. They hate each other and they're fighting in a park and you try and pull them apart. They don't want to be pulled. Sometimes you're better off letting them fight for a while and then pulling them apart. And I gave that analogy to Putin yesterday. I said, president, maybe you're going to have to keep fighting and suffering a lot because both sides are suffering before you pull them apart, before they're able to be pulled apart.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joining us now is retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, the former commander of the U.S. army in Europe. General, thank you very much for joining us tonight. If you were in the White House in a meeting and you heard a president of the United States describe the war in Ukraine that way, what would you say to that? President?

[Mark Hertling]

Well, I would try to prepare him a little bit better, Lawrence. I would say that that's a very false analogy to what's going on in Ukraine right now. It's not a couple of schoolyard children fighting each other. It's a schoolyard bully who has entered the space of another, committed war crimes against that person, continues to bomb civilians and kill non military or target non military targets. And in fact, if it's not so much what he said today, it's what he obviously said to Mr. Putin in a phone call about, you know, we eventually have to get tough on both of you. Well, Mr. Zelensky, President Zelensky did not start this war. Mr. Putin did. He is the schoolyard bully and has used all sorts of means to destroy Ukrainian citizens and kidnap Ukrainian children. So it's a very false analogy. And I would try and pressure the president not to use that one in the Oval Office, because it's entirely wrong.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

What do you think Vladimir Putin hears when he hears that example from Donald Trump? And he hears the way Donald Trump talks to him, according to Donald Trump's reporting of the phone call, which is all we have.

[Mark Hertling]

Have it's weakness, Lauren. That's what he hears because that's what it is. And Putin and most of the Russians I used to deal with, they sense weakness. And you have to understand how to deal with them, that you can't be weak, that you have to stand up to them, that you can't allow them to get away with the things that they want to do when you know that they're wrong and they're contrary to what right looks like. So, you know, if President Trump thinks he's manipulating his best friend, President Putin, who he's called the matter on several occasions, what I would suggest is he does not understand the Russian culture and he certainly doesn't understand the Russian personality.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So Vladimir Putin and others around the world are watching that madness break out today between Elon Musk and Donald Trump. They're watching the richest person in the world, Donald Trump's biggest political contributor, the biggest political contributor in the world, live tweeting and trying to humiliate Donald Trump in the middle of an Oval Office meeting. Then they see Donald Trump trying to fight back in his way. What do they see and what do they see in the American presidency when they watch this madness unfold today?

[Mark Hertling]

Well, it's interesting, Lawrence, because I was in Europe last week. I was visiting a couple of defense colleges, speaking to them about the transatlantic alliance, asking them to continue to trusting the United States because we would get through this together if they continued with that trust. And in every single forum I had, the question to me was, what the heck is going on in your country? And truthfully, they just want to know. They want to know how we can put up with some of this nonsense that we're seeing, some of this troglodytic behavior on the part of people that are in our government. They don't understand. And in many cases I couldn't explain it to them, but I tried to give them the feeling that we've been together for 70 years in this transatlantic relationship and we have to continue to trust one another to carry things forward.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So Vladimir Putin doesn't have to suffer comments like that from his billionaires in his country. He has methods of dealing with that and all of his billionaires know that. But when he sees Elon Musk trying to push around Donald Trump and not backing down in any way from Donald Trump, with Donald Trump apparently at this stage, not knowing what to do next. How does that inform Vladimir Putin's next move?

[Mark Hertling]

Well, again, when I was in Europe, I was told by several people when I was in Sweden about how the, the purchasing of Tesla vehicles have declined so significantly in that country. And it's not because they have other electric vehicles to choose from. It's because they are seeing the personality of Mr. Musk as a megalomaniac, a billionaire and a narcissist. So when they see these two very rich people, two very powerful people, one in government and another one in industry, going at it online, it becomes a soap opera. And it's dangerous for our country, especially the fact that we have the commander in chief of the military, President Trump, engaging with an individual who has so many contracts with the Department of Defense. It is not only just an ego trip for both of them, it has dangerous repercussions for the military because we depend so much on so many things that Elon Musk has provided to the military. And to have him in the fight with the commander in chief is not only bad theater performance art, as we talked about earlier, it's also dangerous for our country.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Mark Hertling]

Pleasure, Lawrence. Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up, Bill Gates describes Elon Musk as the richest man in the world, killing the poorest children in the world. And tonight, medical supplies, including life savings, HIV medications, are in warehouses where they may be destroyed instead of delivered to the people who need them, thanks to Elon Musk and Donald Trump. That's next. Today, the Washington Post reports more than $12 million worth of contraceptives and HIV prevention medications purchased by the US Government as aid for developing countries under programs that have since been discontinued will probably be destroyed unless officials sell or otherwise offload them, an examination by the Washington Post found. The government records obtained by the Post reveal that virtually all of the supplies have been sitting in distribution centers, one in Belgium and one in the United Arab Emirates, since January, when President Donald Trump halted spending by the United States Agency for International Development. International humanitarian groups and other organizations have been in talks with government representatives about taking control of the products and distributing them, people with knowledge of the matter said. But negotiations have stalled amid shifting directives from the agency's political leadership, including demands that the groups pay for the materials and that any USAID labeling be removed, according to individuals familiar with the talks. The mandate that the USAID negotiator has been given is get us money for it, said one person with knowledge of the talks. And if you can't do that, we're just going to trash it. Joining us now is Dr. Atul Gawande, former assistant administrator for the Global Health for usaid. Doctor, thank you very much for joining us again tonight. This medicine has been sitting there now for months. In some cases approaching as the expiration dates approach, it becomes even more difficult to move it into other countries. What can possibly be done now?

[Dr. Atul Gawande]

Well, it's just a sign of the chaos and destruction. The pattern here is we already see hundreds of millions of dollars worth of food rotting in warehouses. And now we're getting a glimpse of the medicines and supplies for care that are moving towards expiration. They can simply be donated. We did this with COVID vaccines when we had surpluses in the United states. We moved 200 million vaccines to over 100 countries and donated them with enormous benefit to the United States in friendship and ties to many places. So that's what should have happened. These have been sitting there since January and it's not happening. And it's part of the indifference to the harm being done.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And this, of course, was all medicine that was going to be delivered at no charge anyway. This was not something that was supposed to bring revenue to the United States.

[Mark Hertling]

States.

[Dr. Atul Gawande]

Yeah. The idea that you are going to charge for this is crazy because it actually costs money to destroy these goods. They're going to spend money in order to transport, move these, incinerate them and then deal with the waste when there are people who need the food, need the medicines who are at risk today.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And the Gates foundation and others have been in discussions trying to obtain this medicine, willing to take it, get it out of there, get it distributed, but making no headway.

[Dr. Atul Gawande]

Yeah, the pattern here is, you know, the shutdown was incredibly abrupt and unprecedented, not only in its scale but in its irresponsibility. Anytime you shut down any program, you have to account for the assets that are left behind, whether it's vehicles, whether it's medicines, whether it's food, and then arrange for their safe disposition. And that you're not wasting government property, taxpayer funds. That is all standard part of a closeout. This was done so abruptly. It's resulted in, it's maximized the loss of life and the waste of taxpayer dollars.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And there's no evidence that anyone ever got a chance to explain to Elon Musk what, what USAID does, how these medications have been useful in the past. If you had had that chance, what would you have told him? What would you tell him tonight?

[Dr. Atul Gawande]

I would be taking him to the programs on the ground. You know, there were plenty of opportunities if he had the curiosity to know about the programs and how they operated. You know, this is with half the budget of my hospital system here in Boston, where I practice surgery and, you know, $24 reaching hundreds of millions of people and saving lives across the world by preventing and death from hiv, preventing deaths from malaria, addressing childhood diseases and illnesses of all kinds. That work was producing enormous benefit and saving lives by the millions. That is what has now been shut down. It's causing, you know, the counts of deaths already are in the tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands, and it's going to continue to climb. That is what I would have shown him. I was in Kenya just a couple weeks ago. You could see everywhere you went the damage being done.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And the chaos now is spreading, created by this sort of thing is spreading to other countries, including normally peaceable countries where there might be a refugee camp like, say, Malawi, where difficulties are breaking out there that they've never witnessed before because of the deprivation caused by Elon Musk and Donald Trump.

[Mark Hertling]

Trump.

[Dr. Atul Gawande]

I'll give an example of a place that I was in Kenya a couple weeks ago as I was assessing the damage. On the border of South Sudan is a refugee camp where they're restricted from movements, are escaping war in South Sudan for their lives. Food aid should be getting to them, but is locked up in warehouses. And the World Food Program issued a notice that in the next two months, people, children, the families there will get only 29% of the daily need for calories. This is basically some rice, some lentils, as your food availability for the entire day. And no surprise, you're starting to see riots, instability, and people are talking about moving back into. Back onto the road and perhaps even back into South Sudan. The idea that you'd feel safer in a war zone is a sign of how bad this is getting.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Dr. Atul Gawande, thank you very much for the work you've done. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Dr. Atul Gawande]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We'll be right back. Time for tonight's last word. At exactly the same time Donald Trump was being humiliated in the Oval Office today, the stupidest commerce Secretary in history was once again humiliating himself as only he can do. What's the tariff on bananas?

[Mark Hertling]

Americans, by the way, love bananas. We buy billions of them a year.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I love bananas.

[Mark Hertling]

What's the tariff on bananas?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The tariff on bananas would be representative of the countries that produce them. And what's that tariff generally 10%, correct? 10%.

[Mark Hertling]

Walmart has already increased the cost of.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Bananas by 8%, recognizing as countries do deals with us, that will go to zero. As countries do deals with us, the.

[Mark Hertling]

Cost on the American consumer.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Now, if you build in America and you produce your product in America, there will be no tariffs. We can't be bananas in America. We grow a small portion of our bananas in Hawaii, Puerto Rico, but almost all of our bananas, bananas are imported. You may have never had a banana in your life in this country that was not imported. That's the way it's always been. That's the way it always will be. Same thing with coffee. Tonight's last word is bananas. Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes.

[Jamie Raskin]

This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Karen Howe, author of Empire of Dreams.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And nightmares, in Sam Altman's OpenAI.

[Jen Psaki]

If you make too early of a call and you try to replace all.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Your workers with AI and then it.

[Dr. Atul Gawande]

Doesn'T work out, you hire back the workers.

[Jen Psaki]

But there are lots of other things that this hype around AI is driving forward that is not reversible.

[Dr. Atul Gawande]

That's this week on why is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now and follow.