Lawrence: Trump humiliates Elon Musk by telling House GOP, ‘Elon won’t go home.’

Summary

Episode Summary: "Lawrence: Trump humiliates Elon Musk by telling House GOP, 'Elon won’t go home.'"

Release Date: November 14, 2024
Host: Lawrence O’Donnell, MSNBC
Title: Trump humiliates Elon Musk by telling House GOP, 'Elon won’t go home.'

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1. Introduction and Context

In this episode of "The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell," host Lawrence O'Donnell delves into the latest political upheavals within the Republican Party. The focus is primarily on Congressman Matt Gaetz's controversial resignation and subsequent nomination by former President Donald Trump as the next Attorney General. This move has significant implications for the GOP's control of the House of Representatives and the broader dynamics within the party.

2. Republican House Control and Matt Gaetz's Resignation

At the outset, O'Donnell reports that Republicans initially reached the magic number of 218 seats required to secure control of the House of Representatives. However, this majority was swiftly jeopardized when Matt Gaetz resigned, reducing Republican seats to 217 with nine additional House elections still undecided ([03:00]-[04:26]).

Key Points:

• Gaetz's Resignation: An uncommon event, especially for a member under investigation by the House Ethics Committee. Gaetz resigned to halt the investigation, a move typically seen as a way to evade scrutiny ([04:35]-[05:00]).
• Historical Comparison: O'Donnell draws a parallel between Gaetz and John Mitchell, former Attorney General under Nixon, who is often regarded as one of the worst in the office due to subsequent criminal convictions ([05:00]-[06:00]).

Notable Quote:

Lawrence O'Donnell [05:00]: "Matt Gaetz is the single most inappropriate selection for Attorney General in the history of that office."

3. Republican Reactions and Internal Dynamics

The resignation and nomination have sparked varied reactions within the Republican caucus. Congressman Max Miller expresses skepticism about Gaetz's qualifications, highlighting concerns about his loyalty versus competence ([04:26]-[04:48]).

Key Points:

• Senate Majority Leader Dynamics: Kevin McCarthy faces challenges related to Gaetz's nomination, especially after being ousted by Gaetz-driven pressures ([04:54]-[05:00]).
• Legislative Challenges: The Senate confirmation process is expected to be tumultuous, with significant resistance from both within the Republican Party and across the aisle.

Notable Quote:

Lawrence O'Donnell [06:51]: "Senator Thune might turn out to be as weak as Rick Scott and bend to every Trump demand."

4. Senate Confirmation Hurdles

Gaetz's path to becoming Attorney General is fraught with obstacles. Key Republican senators like Lisa Murkowski, Joni Ernst, John Cornyn, and Susan Collins voice doubts about his suitability and the transparency of the ethics investigations ([05:55]-[06:53]).

Key Points:

• Ethics Investigation Suppression: Gaetz's resignation stalled the House Ethics Committee's probe, raising concerns about accountability and transparency.
• Recess Appointments: Trump's inclination to use recess appointments to bypass Senate confirmation is discussed, though it's noted that this method is temporary and may not overcome the current political resistance ([06:53]-[07:30]).

Notable Quote:

Senator Lisa Murkowski [05:00]: "I don't think it's a serious nomination for the attorney general."

5. John Thune's Election and Elon Musk's Influence

A significant subplot is the election of John Thune as the Senate Majority Leader, a result that effectively thwarts Elon Musk's attempts to influence Senate leadership. Musk's involvement in political lobbying, particularly his efforts to promote Rick Scott for the majority leader position, is portrayed as unsuccessful ([21:11]-[22:00]).

Key Points:

• Musk's Defeat: Thune's victory over Musk's preferred candidate diminishes Musk's political leverage within the Senate.
• Public Display of Dominance: Trump's maneuvering to showcase his control over influential figures like Musk is analyzed, emphasizing the ongoing power struggle within Republican ranks ([23:00]-[25:00]).

Notable Quote:

Lawrence O'Donnell [21:13]: "Donald Trump is Elon's daddy, and Elon is demoted to the status of Trump's son."

6. Interview with Senator Tammy Baldwin

Senator Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin joins O'Donnell to discuss the ramifications of Gaetz's nomination and the broader implications for Senate confirmations.

Key Points:

• Efficiency vs. Reality: Baldwin critiques Musk's and Gaetz's definitions of government efficiency, suggesting a disconnect between their approaches and legislative realities ([21:35]-[22:00]).
• Ethics and Transparency: Emphasis on the necessity of accessing full ethics reports to evaluate nominees' qualifications and integrity ([23:11]-[24:50]).

Notable Quotes:

Senator Tammy Baldwin [21:35]: "I have a feeling that Elon Musk defines these terms differently than we do."

Senator Tammy Baldwin [23:11]: "We have a responsibility as the Senate, as senators, to confirm those who are qualified for their posts and to reject those who are not."

7. Interview with Congressman Adam Smith

Democratic Congressman Adam Smith of Washington provides further insights into the challenges posed by Trump's nominations.

Key Points:

• Gaetz's Inexperience: Smith highlights Gaetz's lack of substantial experience in law enforcement and legal matters, raising doubts about his capability to lead the Justice Department effectively ([25:08]-[30:00]).
• Policy Concerns: Discussion on how Gaetz's policy positions, particularly regarding foreign affairs and defense, may adversely affect national security and legislative functionality ([29:07]-[30:32]).

Notable Quotes:

Congressman Adam Smith [29:07]: "It's really worrisome. And we haven't even talked about Tulsi Gabbard at DNI where she has no experience in intel matters whatsoever."

Congressman Adam Smith [30:32]: "What you've got is somebody who's never procured anything on this level. So the lack of experience is troubling."

8. Potential Impact of Attorney General Matt Gaetz

The discussion shifts to the possible actions Gaetz could take if confirmed as Attorney General, emphasizing the risks to the Justice Department's impartiality and effectiveness.

Key Points:

• Setting Priorities: Gaetz could significantly influence which cases the Justice Department prioritizes or dismisses, potentially leading to biased prosecutions ([35:55]-[38:00]).
• Legal Accountability: Concerns are raised about Gaetz's willingness to overlook legal processes, especially concerning associates or political allies ([38:54]-[40:37]).

Notable Quote:

Andrew Weissman [37:48]: "They have enormous power first in terms of setting all of the priorities of the Department. They can say civil rights investigations that are currently ongoing, stop. Criminal investigation, stop."

9. Special Prosecutor Jack Smith's Report

The episode also touches upon Jack Smith's role as a special prosecutor and the anticipated impact of his forthcoming report on Trump's criminal investigations.

Key Points:

• Report Confidentiality: The potential suppression or destruction of Smith's report by a future Attorney General is a major concern, threatening transparency and accountability ([43:48]-[46:00]).
• Preservation of Evidence: Strategies to ensure the report's preservation, such as filings with the court, are discussed as safeguards against executive overreach ([44:42]-[46:14]).

Notable Quotes:

Andrew Weissman [43:48]: "They have to prove he needs facts in order to do that, but just enormous, enormous damage in terms of priorities, in terms of ignorance, ignoring the facts, in terms of ignoring the law."

Lawrence O'Donnell [45:16]: "If it's not released, Donald Trump's attorney general will destroy the entire file, order it destroyed."

10. Conclusion

Lawrence O'Donnell concludes the episode by underscoring the precarious state of the Republican Party amidst internal conflicts and controversial nominations. The potential confirmation of Matt Gaetz as Attorney General poses significant threats to the integrity of the Justice Department and the broader framework of American governance. The interplay between political loyalty, legal accountability, and party dynamics remains a critical focal point as the GOP navigates these challenges.

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Overall Insights:

• Internal GOP Struggles: The Republican Party is facing internal divisions, particularly between loyalists to Donald Trump and members wary of the implications of his nominations.

• Impact on Governance: Gaetz's potential role as Attorney General could reshape the Justice Department's priorities, raising concerns about partisanship and legal integrity.

• External Influences: Figures like Elon Musk are attempting to exert influence within political processes but face resistance from entrenched party leadership.

• Future Implications: The confirmation processes and the handling of special prosecutor reports will have long-term effects on political transparency and accountability.

Impactful Quotes:

• Lawrence O'Donnell [05:00]: "Matt Gaetz is the single most inappropriate selection for Attorney General in the history of that office."

• Senator Tammy Baldwin [23:11]: "We have a responsibility as the Senate, as senators, to confirm those who are qualified for their posts and to reject those who are not."

• Congressman Adam Smith [29:07]: "It's really worrisome. And we haven't even talked about Tulsi Gabbard at DNI where she has no experience in intel matters whatsoever."

• Andrew Weissman [37:48]: "They have enormous power first in terms of setting all of the priorities of the Department. They can say civil rights investigations that are currently ongoing, stop. Criminal investigation, stop."

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the podcast episode, highlights key discussions, and includes significant quotes with accurate timestamps to provide context and depth to the listener's understanding.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Alex Wagner]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Now it is time for the Last word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence. Good evening, Alex. I want to second everything Adam Johnson just said, that Jon Thune is definitely the best possibility out of a. Out of a bad group to choose from. And we'll find out. We'll just find out whether there really is. Whether there really is any difference at all in who they picked. It's a huge test. We have Andrew Weissman joining us tonight. Alex, remember him? You know, I'm so jealous. Can I just say, like, he is exactly who I want. I want. When I heard Matt Gaetz was gonna. Was gonna be nominated as the Attorney General, I just wanted the someone who understands the inner workings of the Department of Justice and how this is going over. I am so eager to hear what he has to say. It's the. It's the how much furniture can he break segment. That's what we're wondering about. Yeah. And Weisman knows. Yes, he does. Have a great show. Thanks, Alex. Thank you. Well, the Republicans hit the Magic Number of 218 today to win control of the House Representatives and then immediately and perhaps temporarily lost control of the House when a Republican House member suddenly resigned, bringing the number of Republican seats in the house down to 217, with nine more House elections yet to be decided. Resignations from the House Representatives are rare. Even more rare are resignations when a House member is under investigation by the House Ethics Committee. The resignation stops the investigation. That is What Congressman Matt Gaetz hoped to achieve by his sudden resignation today while under investigation by the House Ethics Committee for possible involvement in sexual misconduct and drug use. Most members of Congress who resign while under investigation are never heard from again in government, except possibly at their criminal trials. Donald Trump promised we will be hearing from Matt Gaetz again by announcing him as the choice for the next Trump Attorney General. Matt Gaetz is the single most inappropriate selection for Attorney General in the history of that office. At the time of his selection, Republican President Richard Nixon's first Attorney General, John Mitchell, was of course the worst Attorney General in history since he was convicted of crimes committed while serving as Attorney General. But at the time of his selection, John Mitchell appeared to be just another Republican establishment lawyer going into a Republican administration. Unlike Matt Gaetz, John Mitchell was not under an ethics investigation when he was selected to be Attorney General. John Mitchell had never been the subject of a federal criminal investigation of sex trafficking as Matt Gaetz was. John Mitchell had never been arrested for drunk driving as Matt Gaetz was. As shocked as Washington was yesterday with the Trump choice of a Fox Weekend host for Secretary of Defense, the shock was even greater today, including among Republicans, there is no Republican member of the House of Representatives hated, and I mean hated by more Republican members than Matt Gaetz. Here's the reaction of Republican Congressman Max Miller.

[Adam Smith]

I just think it's silly. I believe that the President is probably.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Rewarding him for being such a loyal soldier to the President. But the President is smart enough and.

[Adam Smith]

His team is smart enough to know.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That Mr. Gates will never get confirmed by the Senate. Mr. Gates breaks things to breaks things.

[Adam Smith]

And then once he breaks it, he.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Breaks it even more. And that is somebody who should not.

[Adam Smith]

Be the attorney of the United States.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Kevin McCarthy, who was driven out of the speakership by Matt Gaetz, said this.

[Adam Smith]

I'll give you the truth why I'm not Speaker.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's because one person, a member of.

[Andrew Weissman]

Congress, wanted me to stop an ethics.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Complaint because he slept with a 17 year old. The Democrats in the Senate will doubt want to hear from Kevin McCarthy as a witness at Matt Gaetz Senate confirmation hearing. The Senate confirmation hearing for Attorney General will be run by the 91 year old chairman, new Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Chuck Grassley, who has become a rubber stamp for all things Trump in the Senate. But Matt Gaetz is already in trouble trying to get a majority vote in the Senate with Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski telling NBC News Today it will be a significant challenge for Gaetz to win enough votes to be confirmed. I don't think it's a serious nomination for the attorney general. That's Lisa Murkowski's view, murkowski said. He's got his work cut out for him, added Senator Joni Ernst, Republican of Iowa. Senator John Cornyn said the Senate will have to consider any nominee by the president seriously, but we also have a constitutional responsibility. Senator Susan Collins, Republican of Maine, sounded a note of skepticism. Obviously, the president has the right to nominate whomever he wishes, but I'm certain that there will be a lot of questions, she said. Collins said the ethics probe will be one of the issues that's going to be raised because as I understand it, there's an active investigation by the House Ethics Committee. Well, there was an active investigation when the senator was saying that, but hours later that investigation was ended by Matt Gaetz resignation a year ago Matt Gaetz said the world is not ready for an Attorney General Matt Gaetz. You never know, David. It may be an Attorney General Matt Gaetz down the road or someone of my liking who will be there to actually enforce, provide the accountability. Not just the vision, but the actual accountability. The people that are sending you those messages deserve that in a free and just and constitutional republic. Yeah, we do. We absolutely do. And I like that.

[Alex Wagner]

I like that. Attorney General Matt Gaetz.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Are you kidding me? The world is not ready. Probably. Certainly Senate confirmation wouldn't be. Punchbowl News is reporting tonight that the House Ethics Committee was going to vote on Friday, just two days from now, on releasing a report of its investigation of Matt Gaetz. That vote might never take place and that report might never be seen. But between now and Matt Gaetz Senate confirmation, every reporter in Washington will be trying to get a leaked copy of that report to protect Matt Gaetz. Every Republican member of the House will have to defend suppressing that Ethics Committee report. Every Republican senator who wants to vote for Matt Gaetz's confirmation will have to def that ethics report about Matt Gaetz. Every Republican senator will have to insist that they want less information about Donald Trump's nominee for attorney general than is available. The Trump team has said that they want to abolish background checks for jobs in the Trump administration. Now we know why. In a normal investigation of a nominee for attorney general, the background check is done by the FBI. That's the FBI doing a background check of their future boss. The FBI already knows a lot about Matt Gaetz from its criminal investigation of a friend of Matt Gaetz who is now serving time for sex trafficking. That information should be included in the FBI's background report that is normally provided to the Senate Judiciary Committee. Now we know why Donald Trump said the other day he wants to bypass the confirmation process for his nominees. Donald Trump wants possibly unconfirmable nominees like Matt Gaetz to take their positions in the administration through recess appointments. A recess appointment is possible only when the Senate is in recess for at least 10 days. Then, in the event of what's supposed to be an emergency vacancy that has to be filled, the President can appoint someone without Senate confirmation. That appointment is only good for approximately 18 months to a maximum of two years until the next Congress is sworn in. Matt Gaetz was promised a recess appointment before he was publicly chosen by Senator Rick Scott of Florida, who was one of the candidates for Republican Majority Leader of the Senate. Rick Scott was the only One of the three candidates who immediately said, quote, 100% agree, 100% agree to Donald Trump's demand for recess appointments. Rick Scott came in last today in the closed door secret election for Senate Majority Leader in which only Republican senators voted. John Thune, the heir apparent of Mitch McConnell from South Dakota, was elected majority leader by Republicans in sharp and full defiance of Elon Musk three days ago. Elon Musk, who has never expressed a view on Senate leadership elections before, said Rick Scott for majority Leader, exclamation point. He also said then Senator Thune is the top choice for Democrats. He was right about Senator Thune. Most Democratic senators would prefer John Thune as the Republican leader. Here's Democratic Senator Mark Warner today. I've worked with John Thune on a lot of things, even like our first TikTok bill together. Again, I don't agree with John Thune on everything. And he's going to have to work. He's got a challenge to work with the President elect and his caucus. But the thing about Jon Thune is he's partisan, but he's always a decent guy. And that, I think, kind of basic decency is something that I imagine will be tested, but I'm looking forward to working with him. So Elon Musk, the Senate lobbyist, lost big time today. Elon Musk lobbied Republicans in the Senate on majority leader and Elon Musk lost. His candidate came in last out of the three candidates. And Matt Gaetz's chance of getting a recess appointment to Attorney General just dropped from 100% with Rick Scott to no better than 50% with John Thune as Senate Majority Leader. John Thune might turn out to be as weak as Rick Scott and bend to every Trump demand. But as of tonight, we know two things about the incoming Senate Majority leader. John Thune, like most Republicans, doesn't want Matt Gaetz to get a recess appointment, and he doesn't want Matt Gaetz to become attorney general. He's not going to say those things out loud, but that is obvious about a senator like John Thune. That doesn't mean John Thune won't end up voting for Matt Gaetz confirmation in the end. But Jon Thun might, just might, try to work the secret magic that a majority leader can use to slow down a nomination or kill a nomination without his fingerprints being at the scene of the crime. Majority leaders have many ways of doing that invisibly. At the end of Donald Trump's second impeachment trial, Senator Thune said, my vote to acquit should not be viewed as exoneration for his conduct on January 6, 2021, or in the days and weeks leading up to it. What former President Trump did to undermine faith in our election system and disrupt the peaceful transfer of power is inexcusable. But he is no longer president. The Constitution is clear that the primary purpose of impeachment is removal from office, and that's what I believe the founders intended. Reports are now emerging from Trump world about the predictable tensions with Elon Musk, NBC News reports. Musk has been so aggressive in pushing his views about Trump's second term that he's stepping on the toes of Trump's transition team and maybe overstaying his welcome at Mar A Lago, according to two people familiar with the transition. He's behaving as if he's a co president and making sure everyone knows it, one of the people said of Musk, Politico reports. He's become almost a comical distraction, hanging around Mar? A Lagos, sidling into high level transition meetings and giving unsolicited feedback on Trump's personnel decisions. Elon is getting a little big for his britches, one insider tells Playbook. Trump, for his part, doesn't seem to mind relishing the attention he's getting from the richest man in the world. There was even talk of trying to have Elon Musk join the meeting that Donald Trump had today with President Biden, in which current White House Chief of Staff Jeff Synes and incoming White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles also joined the discussion after that one on one in the Oval Office. Musk did not make it into that meeting, but that's the only meeting Elon Musk seems to have been barred from so far. Donald Trump lets Elon Musk follow him around the way President Franklin Delano Roosevelt let his little dog Falla follow him around all over the world, including on voyages across oceans. Donald and Elon's excellent adventure makes perfect sense for Donald, who always needs money with the richest person in the world beside him. Donald Trump need never talk to another banker in his life. All of Donald's debt issues can be solved by Elon at any moment. And for Donald there is the pleasure of putting on public display the richest person in the world's utter subservience to Donald Trump. In public, Donald Trump is Elon's daddy, and Elon is demoted to the status of Trump's son, a status that allows him to stand in front of Eric in the family. Photograph Because Elon Musk understands nothing about government, he might not understand how fake the fake job is that Donald Trump gave him. Yesterday when he told Elon Musk he would be in charge of finding and getting rid of government waste, Donald Trump gave Elon Musk the power to do absolutely nothing. Donald Trump simply made Elon Musk another lobbyist with Congress. If Elon Musk finds something that he thinks is waste in government, he can recommend to the House and Senate committees of jurisdiction that they vote to cut that spending. But if they don't vote to cut that spending, that spending will continue forever. And Elon Musk better not recommend cutting any wasteful government spending in Texas, say, or in Florida or in any Republican state. Elon Musk has no power in the government at all. Elon Musk has no power over spending and has no power over cutting spending. Only Congress does. And so Elon Musk's fake job on the Trump team is to be a spending lobbyist with Congress. And Elon Musk will have to convince both the House and Senate to agree to vote on spending cuts that he, Elon Musk, proposes. And we saw Elon Musk's power today as a lobbyist in the United States Senate. He lost and he lost very, very badly in the very first vote by Republican senators. They said, we don't want what Elon Musk is selling. We don't want Rick Scott, the Republican senator who said he wanted to cut Social Security and Medicare. When Elon Musk recommends cutting Social Security and Medicare to the Senate, the Senate Finance Committee won't even have a hearing on it, nevermind to vote on it. Elon Musk was humiliated today in his first big power play in the United States Senate. Elon Musk was crushed and humiliated, and he was humiliated today by Donald Trump, who must, must at some point, humiliate everyone around him to demonstrate his dominance over them. It is very likely that Donald Trump is the one sucking up to Elon Musk in private, because Donald Trump knows that he needs Elon Musk's money and he needs Elon Musk's social media influence. But for Donald Trump, the only thing that matters is what happens in public. The only thing that matters to Donald Trump is how he is seen in public. And so today, with Elon Musk tagging along at Donald Trump's meeting with House Republicans, Donald Trump trotted Elon Musk into that room to show House Republicans two things. One, the richest person in the world is on my side. The richest person in the world can help you or hurt you, depending on how helpful you are to me. But here's the other thing. The richest person in the world is not the most powerful person in the world. That was Donald Trump's message to the House of Representatives today, spoken and unspoken. And what he said out loud about Elon Musk, just to demonstrate his power over Elon Musk publicly, just to humiliate Elon Musk, as Donald Trump must do, as Donald Trump's twisted psyche demands that he do. Donald Trump told all Republican House members, quote, elon won't go home. I can't get rid of him. And everyone laughed at that. They laughed that uncomfortable laugh that they laugh when Donald Trump makes a joke about someone on his team, a joke that everyone knows is true. A joke that paints that person as pathetic as Donald Trump's personal sense of superiority demands that he do. Donald Trump's jealousy of Elon Musk's wealth must eat away at him every second. He has to look at the richest person in the world. But in public, at least, Donald Trump gets to do what he likes to do best. Insult and humiliate. Insult and humiliate. In this case, Elon Musk. Elon won't go home. I can't get rid of him. I had never heard of Texas Republican Congressman Troy Nels, who just got reelected to his third term before today. Today, Congressman Troy Nels entered the House record books for saying the stupidest thing a member of Congress could ever say about a president. Troy Nels had no idea, obviously, that he was contradicting the very design of the relationship between the House of Representatives and the president that the founders wrote into the Constitution. And in the process, Troynels erased the line between church and state because he, in effect, said Donald Trump is God when he said Donald Trump is never wrong. If Donald Trump says jump 3ft high and scratch your head, we all jump 3ft high and scratch our heads. That's it. He's got a ten pound brain. Elon's got a ten pound brain and we need to take advantage of that. If Donald Trump says tariffs work, terrorist work, period.

[Tammy Baldwin]

Because Donald Trump is really never wrong.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Think about it. He's never wrong. Joining our discussion now is Democratic Senator Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin, who just won her reelection campaign for a third term. She's a member of the Senate Appropriations Committee and the Commerce, Science and Transportation community. Senator, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Tammy Baldwin]

It's a delight to join you. What a powerful opening.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator Elon Musk, at some point is going to be lobbying you on spending, presumably on spending cuts and possibly on spending increases for the government programs that he benefits from. What do you think the committee reception is going to be for an outsider like Elon Musk coming along saying he knows how to do your job better than you do?

[Tammy Baldwin]

Yeah, well, first of all, we're all for eliminating waste and improving efficiency, but I have a feeling that Elon Musk has a very different definition of efficiency than the rest of us do. And look, we know that they are lined up ready to vote on a huge package of new tax cuts for billionaires like Elon Musk, for big corporations, and that that will be done at the expense of things that we rely on, Social Security, Medicare, veterans benefits. You know, I chair a subcommittee of the Appropriations Committee that funds things like childcare, things like our tools to fight our fentanyl crisis. And I will fight furiously to make sure that we keep those necessary investments. And if they want to talk about real efficiency, I'm open to that conversation. But I have a feeling that Elon Musk defines these terms differently than we do.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator, what was your reaction when you heard of Donald Trump's choice for Attorney general? And do you believe Matt Gates could be confirmed by the Senate?

[Tammy Baldwin]

So it has been quite a week listening to these announcements. And look, I believe it's absolutely essential that we have or play our advice and consent role. The President nominates, the Senate confirms. I do not. I think we have to fight furiously against this idea of recess appointments. But we have a responsibility as the Senate, as senators, to confirm those who are qualified for their posts and to reject those who are not. And it seems to me that President Trump in that particular nomination, as well as some others are, you know, he's nominating folks that are in that latter category. And by the way on Matt Gaetz, you were talking about the ethics report. I think it would be absolutely essential in investigating his background and his qualifications to have access to that full report from the House.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, that was my next question. And this has never happened before, that you're going to be presented with the nominee who is the subject of a House Ethics Committee report that is being suppressed or may be being suppressed at that time.

[Tammy Baldwin]

Yes, well, that's why he resigned. That report was just days away from being issued. And they close an investigation and a report once the person in the subject is no longer a member of the House of Representatives. But we have a very different role in the Senate. If we are looking at confirmation of one of the president's nominations, and that would be to thoroughly review their background, their history, the FBI would be involved, as you said. But we also should have access to all relevant reports and documents that would inform our choice.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator Tammy Baldwin, thank you very much for joining. Thank you for joining us again tonight.

[Tammy Baldwin]

Thank you for having me.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. Many members of Congress had never heard of Donald Trump's choice of secretary of defense until Trump announced yesterday that he was choosing a FOX Weekend morning host. One of the members of Congress who had never heard of Trump's choice is the top Democrat on the House committee that has jurisdiction over everything the secretary of defense does. That Democrat, Adam Smith, will join us next.

[Alex Wagner]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Honestly, there are things that everyone can do to help protect their sexual health. Talk to a healthcare provider to find.

[Alex Wagner]

Out how you can take action.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And find out [e-mail] sponsored by Gilead. Here is Donald Trump's choice for Secretary of defense. Talking about Russian President Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine last week.

[Adam Smith]

From the beginning, like, a couple days in, I'm like, this feels like a Putin's giving me my back war. It kind of feels like. I feel like you've been pushing pretty hard. And we used to have the former Soviet Union, and we're pretty proud of that. And Ukraine was a part of it, and all these other countries, and I want my back. And this idea that I hear all the time, and I have friends who would probably agree with us on most things. They're like, well, if you don't stop him in Ukraine, then he's gonna go.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

All the way to Poland.

[Adam Smith]

And he's all. I don't think he's. I mean, maybe in a perfect world where he had unlimited capabilities and he could crown himself king of Europe, he would. I think he's probably knows enough to know that he's probably not going much further than Ukraine.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That sounds like someone who had no idea a week ago that he was going to be named Secretary of Defense by Donald Trump if the Senate will confirm him. The top Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, which has jurisdiction over everything the Secretary of Defense does, said this.

[Adam Smith]

I confess, I did not know who Pete Higges was until about 20 minutes ago. He does not seem to have much of a detailed background in DoD policy. To the extent he's worked on any of that stuff, it has been on veterans policy, not on, you know, DoD issues. So it's the lack of experience is concerning. Now, I have not heard what his plans are, so we will see what his plans are. But it was surprising, and it's concerning just given that lack of experience. You know, the Pentagon, biggest bureaucracy in the world, it's a hard thing to run. So I think it's going to be a challenge.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Adam Smith of Washington. He is the senior Democrat on the Armed Services Committee. Congressman, thank you very much for joining us. Have you learned anything in the last 24 hours that reassures you about Donald Trump's choice for Secretary of Defense?

[Adam Smith]

No, actually, I've learned a lot of things that make it all the more alarming. And you just played a clip of that. I mean, he fundamentally doesn't seem to approach these issues with much seriousness, and I understand that he's a pundit. Okay. That's what pundits can do. They pontificate, they take ideas off the top of the head and they throw them out there for purposes of discussion. That's fine. But if you're gonna run the Pentagon, you don't need to be a pundit. You need to understand policy and you need to have actual concrete plans. So it is really concerning. Everything I've heard in the last 24 hours shows me that he's a shoot from the hip guy, doesn't have a clear policy agenda, who is simply there to do Donald Trump's bidding. So, I mean, there's two layers of concern here. One is it's a complicated job. Regardless of what your policy positions are, running that massive bureaucracy, you know, knowing, you know, the President comes to you and says, hey, we got a situation in the Middle East. What are our options? If you've never actually been in a situation room or in the DoD and analyzed what those options are, you're kind of making it up off the top of your head. And that is very, very alarming. We had billion dollar programs that the Pentagon's in charge of. This guy's never procured anything on this level. So the lack of experience is troubling. The flip sort of approach to something like Ukraine, to women serving in the military. Yeah, this is deeply troubling.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Now, we've heard your Republican colleagues in the House come out against Matt Gaetz, who is, by my gauge, is the most hated Republican by Republicans in the House.

[Adam Smith]

I was going to joke. That's just because they know him.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That's what they. There you go. Is there any similar reaction behind the scenes there with Republicans to Donald Trump's choice for his Secretary of Defense?

[Adam Smith]

Yeah, behind the scenes, the concerns that I just laid out. But publicly. And look, even on Matt Gaetz, I mean, House Republicans don't like him, but Trump seems to be leading them around by the nose. I mean, do you really think that the Senate Republicans are going to vote against any of Trump's picks? It's really worrisome. And we haven't even talked about Tulsi Gabbard at DNI where she has no experience in intel matters whatsoever. So the picks that have come in in the last couple of days, they're cause for concern. But also, as a number of people have pointed out, I've heard it's not surprising. Trump was very clear about what he was going to do. And this is consistent with what he said. Gosh, for the last four years, well.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It will only take three or four, maybe Republicans to peel off in the confirmation process, and these people are in trouble. It also depends, of course, on when Marco Rubio is confirmed, because that will remove one Republican senator from the vote. But go back to Telsey Gabbard. Where do you see the biggest danger in these appointments? Is one of these appointments, the one that you think is most dangerous?

[Adam Smith]

I think collectively, I don't know that one is more dangerous than any other. But there's, I guess I would say, three big dangers. One, ignorance. Okay. These are really important and difficult decisions. And I'll be honest with you, Lawrence. You know, I became ranking member of the armed services committee 14 years ago. I'd been in Congress. I don't know, what was it, 16 years at the time. 14 years at the time. And early on, first couple of days in there, I was like, wow, okay, there's some information I hadn't seen before, things I need to get up to speed on. And that was ranking member on the Armed Services Committee. All right. To be Director of National Intelligence, Secretary of Defense, Attorney General. I mean, you've got major issues coming at you that these people have literally never seen before. So that's number one. Number two is their absolute fidelity to Donald Trump and Donald Trump's propensity to have a fair number of deeply concerning whims which he will require these people to act on and which they will act on. And number three is their policy positions. I mean, you just heard it. Yeah. Putin. I don't know if I can swear. I think you bleeped out. Putin's just getting his shit back, but I think he'll stop at Ukraine. I got news from Mr. Hexa. Putin thinks he's got a lot more shit to get back. So even if that's his position, he should have a more alarming outlook on where that goes. So all three of those levels make this deeply concerning. But again, I want to emphasize for all of those, you know, Republicans who claim to be troubled by Trump, but were more troubled by Kamala Harris. Come on. He told you this was what he was going to do over and over and over again. And, yes, it is deeply alarming, and now we all are going to have to deal with it.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Congressman Adam Smith, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Adam Smith]

Thanks, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. Special Prosecutor Jack Smith is writing a report for Attorney General Merrick Garland of all his criminal investigations of Donald Trump. Will we ever see that report? And how much damage could an Attorney General, Matt Gaetz, do? Andrew Weissman joins us next to answer both of those pressing questions.

[Adam Smith]

Hi, my name is Patrick Adams. You may know me as Mike Ross on the TV series Suits.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And I'm Sarah Rafferty, and I play Donna Paulson on Suits.

[Adam Smith]

And we have a podcast called Sidebar where every week we watch and discuss.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

An episode of the show. Because here's the thing, neither of us have really watched it. That's true, at least until now. So we're gonna cover all nine seasons, share behind the scenes stories, and talk to our co stars and friends like Gina Torres and Aaron Korsh.

[Adam Smith]

So look, if you love Suits Amazing, this podcast is for you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And if you've never watched Suits, also Amazing. You can join us and we'll watch it together. I think we're gonna have a lot of fun. Listen to Sidebar wherever, get your podcasts.

[Adam Smith]

And don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.

[Alex Wagner]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Here are just some of the reactions from inside the Justice Department to Donald Trump's choice of Congressman Matt Gaetz as Attorney General to lead the Justice Department. This is what some people there were saying today. It's laughable. Truly stunning, Insane. Shouldn't be confirmable. He is uniquely qualified. How many other prospective attorneys general had previous experience as the subject of a criminal investigation? That reaction came from unnamed sources inside the Justice Department. That the attorney General leads One of Matt Gaetz's first orders of business as attorney general is, of course, to stop all prosecutions of January 6th defendants, no matter how many police officers they attacked and beat up. Matt Gaetz has visited the Washington, D.C. jail where the January 6th defendants have been held multiple times. And here he is on the first anniversary of the January 6th attack. Congresswoman Greene and I are not here.

[Adam Smith]

To celebrate January 6th.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We are not here to obsess about it. But we are here to expose the truth, to ask key questions about what happened on January 6, who animated the violence, the extent to which the federal government may have been involved. We know this January 6th last year wasn't an insurrection. No one has been charged with insurrection.

[Adam Smith]

No one has been charged with treason.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

But it very well may have been a Fed surrection. Joining our discussion now is Andrew Weisman, former FBI General Counsel and former chief of the Criminal Division in the Eastern District of New York. He's an MSNBC legal analyst and co author of the New York Times best selling book, the Trump Indictments. Andrew, inside the Justice Department. If that man makes it to the Attorney General's office, what can he do?

[Andrew Weissman]

So big if, right? But if he can. I think one of the things I look at is what happened during the bar Justice Department. And you have to remember the vast majority of people there have taken an oath of office. They care about facts and they care about law. And one of the things I have never seen before in 21 years at the Department of Justice is people resigning because of what the department and actually the Attorney General was telling them to do. And that happened during the bar Justice Department with people in the Roger Stone prosecution, for instance, quite famously resigning. That does not happen. You had the number two in the special counsel investigation and the John Durham investigation resigning. That again, that does not happen. I think you will see that over and over again. But I think that there are lots of people who will stay to do their duty, but if they are finally ordered to do something that is against the law and against the facts, they obviously can't do that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

What is the Attorney General legally empowered to do? Forget about breaking rules or anything, but legally empowered to do that could do severe damage.

[Andrew Weissman]

So they have enormous power first in terms of setting all of the priorities of the Department. They can say civil rights investigations that are currently ongoing, stop. Criminal investigation, stop. They can say, we're going to prosecute these people, but we're not going to prosecute those people. All of the things that we heard from Donald Trump when he was president the first time about, you know, going after Democrats but not going after Republicans, dismiss cases against my friends and family and allies, but go after my enemies, all of that is something that the Attorney General could do. I mean, obviously it can be challenged in court. And the issues are that he has to prove he needs facts in order to do that, but just enormous, enormous damage in terms of priorities, in terms of ignorance, ignoring the facts, in terms of ignoring the law. And I just want to say the key thing here is it is such an important job because it is the job that keeps us safe, not just in a criminal matter, but in a national security context. You have to have somebody with experience. I know that your prior guest just talked about this. As somebody who's been there, this is such an important job, regardless of policies. You need somebody who's experienced, who needs a steady hand. It is really a question of all of our safety. It is not a political matter.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And by the way, on day one, he can say to them, give me all of your investigative material about me and that sex trafficking case that I was investigated in. I want that. And he can just take it. Can he also say, destroy this material?

[Andrew Weissman]

There are limits on what he can do in terms of destruction because there are statutes that deal with that. For instance, he could violate the law.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Okay, and then Trump will just pardon him.

[Andrew Weissman]

I mean, we're dealing with such a. There's so many levers to avoid legal accountability. But just to be clear, he can do that not just with himself, but he can do that with any possible ally. Anybody who's committing crimes on behalf of or that helps anybody who's aligned with him, he can just say, don't worry about it. We are not going to investigate.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And he asked Donald Trump for a pardon in Donald Trump's first term. He'll probably ask him for a pardon before he starts this job going forward. Andrew, we got to squeeze in a commercial break. We've got to come back and talk about Jack Smith and the report he's going to file. We'll be right back with Andrew Weissman. Special prosecutor Jack Smith is working on a written report of all of his criminal investigations of Donald Trump, which he will submit to an Attorney General, Merrick Garland, and will resign before President Biden leaves office. Andrew Weissman is back with us. Andrew? So now we know the schedule for the Jack Smith team. They will all resign before the president leaves office. Before January 20, they will submit more than one written report, one for each investigation. Or how will this work?

[Andrew Weissman]

Well, it could either be one huge report, but two separate sections, one for January 6, one for the Mar A Lago classified documents, or it could be separated into two. That's less important. I'm particularly interested in the Mar A Lago one because that's one where we have some of the facts. But there's a whole lot we don't know with respect to the January 6th case. There's just a lot more that we know because of the January 6 committee hearings, a very lengthy indictment, and the most recent briefs where Jack Smith laid out a lot of his proof. So that's one where a report would be useful. But the Mar A Lago case I think is one where we would learn a whole lot more whether it will be public. The big question, remember the special counsel rules that are post Ken Starr basically reacted to what Ken Starr did and said the report that is issued by a special counsel will be given in private to the attorney general and then the attorney general decides whether it is made public because they were reacting to Ken Starr sort of salaciously dumping volume claims on Congress and the public willy nilly. It's all going to be a question of what Merrick Garland does, whether he says it is fair and appropriate for the public to get this. I think the main argument for it is the public had a right to a speedy trial that has been denied. There needs to be some way that there is a public accounting. There are arguments against it, which is that until somebody has been charged and convicted absent their consent, that you don't besmirch them. But here, the foreign president has already been indicted for both of these things. There's a whole lot of evidence in the public record. And so there's a reason to but.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

What about the Mueller report where Donald Trump was not charged but Attorney General Barr released the entire report with some redactions?

[Andrew Weissman]

Yes, although there was either people had been the people who were named had been charged, charged, had pled guilty or consented to it. And so there was an effort to deal with what I refer to as sort of the Jim Comey problem, which is that you don't talk about people, about their potential criminality if they have not been charged. And that was sort of the when people looked at Jim Comey, they said, look, one of his sins that people of the Department of Justice really, I think uniformly say was the wrong decision was to make comments about Hillary Clinton when she had not been charged at all and was never she was under investigation. And then it was closed because there was they decided there was not sufficient proof.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

How much would it weigh or should it weigh on an attorney general? The historical imperative of this history demands that this report be made public.

[Andrew Weissman]

I think that does weigh on making it public. I think that that was something, something that we felt in Special Counsel Mueller's investigation that just given how much public interest there was in this issue, whether people were going to like the report or dislike the report, that you couldn't have two years of the public looking at this and not have a public accounting, even though the rules said it had to go to the we had to follow the rules of it first goes to the attorney in general. There was a sense that our real audience here needed to be the public.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

If it's not released, Donald Trump's attorney general will destroy the entire file, order it destroyed. And if that becomes a criminal violation, that attorney general will be pardoned by Donald Trump for it. Donald Trump will order it. The attorney general Garland has to know that if he does not make this report public, it will all be destroyed. That's what the Trump administration will do.

[Andrew Weissman]

Yeah. I mean, that is something they have to be thinking about. I can tell you one of the strategies we had that I've written about in Special Counsel Mueller's investigation because we were concerned every moment about being fired was we filed as much as we could with the court. Why? Because the court is a separate branch of government. And there the president or the attorney general cannot simply go into the file and destroy things. So those are ways that I'm sure they are thinking about how to make sure that history is preserved.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Andrew Weissman, thank you very much for joining us tonight. We will be right back. Tonight on this program, I will be joined on our Washington studio by President Biden's Secretary of Transportation, Pete Buttigieg.

[Alex Wagner]

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