Lawrence: Trump is asking the Republican Senate to confirm worst Cabinet nominees in history

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Lawrence: Trump is asking the Republican Senate to confirm worst Cabinet nominees in history" The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell – November 19, 2024

---

I. Introduction

In this episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves into the contentious landscape of Donald Trump's Cabinet nominations and the broader political maneuvers within the Republican Senate. Drawing from his extensive experience in politics and media, O'Donnell provides a comprehensive analysis of the current political climate, highlighting significant controversies, ethical concerns, and strategic decisions shaping the administration and its interaction with the Senate.

---

II. Trump's Cabinet Nominees and Sexual Scandals

A. Trump’s Controversial Nominees

Lawrence O'Donnell begins by addressing the troubling trend of Donald Trump's Cabinet nominees embroiled in sexual scandals. He criticizes Trump for seemingly viewing these scandals not as disqualifications but as qualifications for his nominees.

“Donald Trump is asking the Republican Senate to confirm the worst Cabinet nominees in history, the most unqualified Cabinet nominees in history...” (00:30)

O'Donnell underscores the unprecedented nature of these nominations and questions the Senate's willingness to proceed with confirmations despite the mounting controversies.

B. Ethics Concerns Surrounding Matt Gaetz

The discussion transitions to the House Ethics Committee's investigation into former Congressman Matt Gaetz, who faces allegations of sexual misconduct and illicit behavior. O'Donnell highlights Trump's attempts to suppress the Ethics Committee's report, revealing a partisan effort to shield Gaetz from public scrutiny.

“Donald Trump has asked the speaker of the House to prevent that report from being made public.” (04:04)

C. Pete Hegseth’s Nomination and Allegations

O'Donnell further examines the nomination of Pete Hegseth for Secretary of Defense, detailing accusations of rape and the subsequent efforts to suppress these allegations. He draws parallels between Hegseth's actions and Trump's own admissions regarding similar misconduct.

“Donald Trump's so called border czar, Thomas Homan did not say one word about asking for help from state police and for mass deportation...” (17:19)

---

III. Republican Senate's Actions and Inactions

A. Ignoring Trump’s Confirmation Stoppage

O'Donnell criticizes Republican senators for disregarding Trump's directive to halt the confirmation of Biden’s federal judges. Despite Trump's explicit request, the Senate has proceeded without addressing the ethical concerns surrounding Biden’s nominees.

“Not a single senator demanding to see any reports about the Biden nominees committing statutory rape...” (02:07)

B. Ethical Hypocrisy

He points out the inconsistency in the Senate's approach, contrasting the lack of scrutiny on Biden’s nominees with the aggressive confirmation of Trump's controversial nominees, thereby highlighting a potential ethical hypocrisy within the Republican Senate.

---

IV. Ethics Committee Report Breakdown

A. Details of the Matt Gaetz Investigation

The episode delves into the specifics of the Matt Gaetz investigation, where Gaetz resigned amidst serious allegations. O'Donnell discusses the testimonies of witnesses who allege that Gaetz engaged in sexual activities with a minor and the subsequent lack of prosecution by the Department of Justice.

“The Department of Justice declined to prosecute Matt Gaetz for these allegations.” (05:42)

B. Republican Senators’ Stance

Republican Senator Mark Wayne Mullen and Senator John Cornyn are quoted defending transparency and due process, emphasizing that the confirmation process should be based on factual evidence rather than political suppression.

“Should the House Ethics Committee release that report, Senator? Absolutely.” (04:50)

C. Congressman Steve Cohen’s Insights

Democratic Congressman Steve Cohen provides an in-depth analysis of the Ethics Committee's operations and the importance of releasing such reports to maintain public trust in government institutions.

“Nobody, I think, in the public wants to see this covered up, wants to see people get away with bad deeds and misdeeds.” (11:14)

---

V. Border Policy Under Trump

A. Potential Mass Deportations

O'Donnell explores Trump's proposed border policies, highlighting plans for mass deportations and the use of military assets to bolster immigration enforcement. He brings in Professor May Nye to discuss the historical context and feasibility of such operations.

“Trump has been asked a thousand times, how many people can you remove the first year?” (18:13)

B. Historical Context – Eisenhower’s Deportations

Professor Nye references the 1950s deportations under Eisenhower, noting the logistical and ethical challenges faced during those operations, and questions Trump's capacity to replicate such efforts in the modern era.

“They did apprehend over a million people. That was one year.” (20:27)

---

VI. Biden Administration's Ukraine Policy Shift

A. Authorization of Long-Range Missiles

The episode shifts focus to the Biden administration’s strategic decision to authorize Ukraine's use of long-range missiles against Russian and North Korean forces. Ambassador Michael McFaul analyzes the implications of this policy shift.

“It gives President Zelensky and his warriors hope that they can hold that region...” (23:35)

B. Impact and Future Recommendations

McFaul suggests further actions, including additional sanctions and seizing Russian assets, to strengthen Ukraine’s position and pressure Russia, emphasizing that these measures constrain President-elect Trump's potential negotiation strategies.

“I think they tie their hands appropriately.” (25:24)

---

VII. Nathan Heller's Analysis on Election

A. The Ambience of Information

Nathan Heller from The New Yorker presents his analysis on the 2024 election, introducing the concept of the "ambience of information." He argues that the flow and perception of information significantly influenced the election outcome more than traditional campaigning or policy details.

“Information travels differently across the population. Ideas that used to come from local newspapers or TV... now come along an unpredictable path.” (26:50)

B. Trump's Mastery of Information Flow

Heller credits Trump with effectively navigating the modern information landscape through platforms like Truth Social and alliances with media moguls, enabling the spread of his messaging irrespective of factual accuracy.

“Trump's command of the ambiance of information wouldn't have been possible without his own platforms...” (35:07)

C. Implications for Future Elections

The discussion highlights the challenges posed by the current information ecosystem, where misinformation can thrive, and suggests that this dynamic played a crucial role in Trump's electoral strategy and success.

“Ambient information, however thin and wrong, is more powerful than actual facts.” (35:41)

---

VIII. Conclusion

Lawrence O'Donnell wraps up the episode by emphasizing the critical intersections of ethics, information flow, and political strategy underpinning the current administration's actions and the Republican Senate's responses. By dissecting these elements, O'Donnell provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of the ongoing political developments and their potential ramifications for American democracy.

---

This episode of The Last Word serves as a profound exploration of the complexities within contemporary American politics, offering listeners an in-depth analysis enriched with expert opinions and critical insights into the actions shaping the nation's future.

Transcript

[MSNBC Announcer]

When news Breaks Go beyond the headlines with the MSNBC app.

[MSNBC Host]

We begin with breaking news from Washington.

[MSNBC Announcer]

D.C. watch your favorite shows live.

[MSNBC Host]

It can feel difficult to wrap your head around all of the news that will just not stop unfolding.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Get real time analysis from live blogs to in depth essays and the latest updates on the 2024 election. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app well, not.

[MSNBC Host]

Surprisingly, Donald Trump's cabinet nominees are, of course no surprise here, drowning in sex scandals, which Donald Trump seems to see as a qualification for a Trump nominee instead of a reason for the Senate to vote against his nominees. Donald Trump is asking the Republican Senate to confirm the worst Cabinet nominees in history, the most unqualified Cabinet nominees in history, and we will find out in January if enough Republican senators are willing to do that. The first thing Donald Trump asked Republican senators to do after the election was to stop the confirmation process of federal judges nominated by Joe Biden. And Republican senators have made no attempt at all to do what Donald Trump told them to do.

[Nathan Heller]

We'll begin today by voting on the confirmation of Embry Kidd to serve as Circuit Court Judge for the 11th Circuit.

[MSNBC Host]

That's today. So the business of confirming federal judges continued today without the slightest controversy about the background of the Biden nominees.

[Nathan Heller]

Tonight I'll file on additional judges who will move forward on this floor this week. We also have several nominees coming out of the Judiciary Committee on Thursday and will work quickly to move them out of this chamber and onto the bench. So let me repeat. The Senate is going to keep prioritizing judicial and administrative confirmations this week, this month and for the rest of the year.

[MSNBC Host]

Not a single senator demanding to see any reports about the Biden nominees committing statutory rape or possibly raping a married woman in a hotel room after drugging her and then paying her off. The ethical background of the Biden nominees is flawless. But in January, the Senate confirmation process will become a cesspool thanks to Donald Trump and his choices for attorney general and secretary of defense. It has long been known that former Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz, who resigned from the House just last week, has been under investigation for sex with minors and illicit drug use. But we learned Saturday that Donald Trump's choice for secretary of defense, Fox host Weekend Fox host Pete Hegseth, has been accused of rape, the kind of thing Donald Trump bragged about himself on the Access Hollywood video when he said, when you're a celebrity, they let you do it. The House Ethics Committee, which has five Democratic members and five Republican members is scheduled to meet on Wednesday to vote on releasing their report about Matt Gaetz. Donald Trump has asked the speaker of the House to prevent that report from being made public. And the Republican speaker of the House, who presents himself as a very devout Christian, reeking of rectitude, has decided to publicly agree with Donald Trump that the Ethics Committee report about Matt Gaetz possibly committing statutory rape and paying for sex should be suppressed. No one should ever see that report. That is the official position of Donald Trump and the Republican speaker of the House. But the same senators who completely ignored Donald Trump's order to them to prevent Chuck Schumer from confirming any more Biden judges are not ready to suppress that report. Should the House Ethics Committee release that report, Senator? Absolutely. And I believe the Senate should have access to that. That's Republican Senator Mark Wayne Mullen of Oklahoma. Here is Texas Republican Senator John Cornyn, who is a senior member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, which will hold a confirmation hearing for Matt Gaetz if his nomination makes it that far in the process. The fact of the matter is whether we get the ethics report or not, the facts are going to come out one way or the other. And I would think it would be in everybody's best interest, including the President's, not to be surprised by some information that might come out during the confirmation hearing and the background check. So we're going to do our job and under the Constitution and in the process, I believe, provide the President some assurance that he knows exactly what the facts are about each of his nominees. An attorney for two young women who were witnesses in the House Ethics Committee investigation of Matt Gaetz told NBC News Hallie Jackson about their testimony. What did your client witness at this party?

[Attorney for Witness]

She was walking outside to the pool and she observed to her right, her friend, who was 17 at the time, having sex with Representative Gates. They were leaned up to what she described to as a game table of some type.

[MSNBC Host]

Did your client believe that G at the time knew that her friend was underage? Yeah.

[Attorney for Witness]

So the House was curious about that. She testified that her belief was that Representative Gates had no knowledge that she was under 18, that she was 17 years old at the time he was having sex with her. She also testified that when Representative Gates found out that she was underage that they stopped their sexual relationship and did not resume it until after she turned 18.

[MSNBC Host]

The Department of Justice declined to prosecute Matt Gaetz for these allegations. So how should people square that decision with everything that you've laid out here today?

[Attorney for Witness]

Whether or not a federal prosecutor takes a case and decides to move forward on a trial or move forward on an allegation is that particular prosecutor's decision. It doesn't mean they didn't do it.

[MSNBC Host]

The federal prosecutor was studying the possibility of sex trafficking in that investigation. In the state of Florida, under state law, sex with a girl under the age of 18 is statutory rape. That is what Matt Gaetz stands accused of in that Ethics Committee report that Donald Trump is trying to suppress. The Washington Post broke the news that after Donald Trump chose Fox Weekend host Pete Hegseth for his secretary of defense, the Trump transition team then received a four page memo claiming that Pete Hegseth raped a woman in 2017 during the California Federation of Republican Women Conference in Monterey, California. This is the same Pete Hegseth who during his first marriage started an affair that became his second marriage, during which he started an affair at work that became his third marriage. The Washington Post reports that that memo claims that Pete Hegseth, quote, paid a woman who accused him of sexual assault as part of a non disclosure agreement, though he maintained that their encounter was consensual, according to a statement from his lawyer Saturday and other documents obtained by the Washington Post. Hegseth's attorney, Timothy Proletore, said that Hegseth was visibly intoxicated at the time of the incident and maintained that police who were contacted a few days after the encounter by the woman concluded that the complainant had been the aggressor in the encounter. Police have not confirmed that assertion. Hegseth agreed to pay an undisclosed amount to the woman because he feared that revelation of the matter would result in his immediate termination from Fox, where he worked as a host, the statement said. Of course, Donald Trump approves of paying women for their silence about sex in hotel rooms, since Donald Trump has admitted to doing exactly that himself with Stormy Daniels. The Washington Post says that the victim's responsibilities at the conference Pete Hegseth attended were to, quote, make sure Hegseth made it back to his room and left in time the next morning for the 90 minute drive to the airport, the memo said. At some point in the evening, the complaint alleged, Jane Doe received a text from two women at the bar who told her that Hegseth was getting pushy about his interest in taking them upstairs to his room. Jane Doe, who was nearby, came over and talked to those two women and after they left she remembered, sensing that Hegseth was irritated, the memo said. According to the memo, Jane Doe didn't remember anything until she was in Hegseth's hotel room and then stumbling to find her hotel room. The memo said that her memory of six to nine hours was very hazy and that her husband was searching for her and was relieved when she finally showed up the following day. The woman returned home and had a had a moment of hazy memory of being raped the night before and had a panic attack. The memo said the woman then went to the emergency room where she received a rape kit examination that was positive for semen. The memo said the woman gave county authorities a statement about what happened, according to the memo sent to the Trump transition team. In a statement, the Monterey Police Department confirmed that they had, quote, investigated an alleged sexual assault that occurred in 2017 between 8:59pm on October 7 and 7am on October 8 at the Hyatt Regency Monterey Hotel, and that the victim had, quote, contusions to right thigh. Donald Trump's communications director issued a statement saying President Trump is nominating high caliber and extremely qualified candidates to serve in his administration. Mr. Hegseth has vigorously denied any and all accusations and no charges were filed. We look forward to his confirmation. Leading off our discussion is Democratic Congressman Steve Cohen of Tennessee, a member of the House Judiciary Committee. He has served on the House Ethics Committee. Thank you very much for joining us tonight, Congressman Cohen. Let's go straight into this issue of precedent for the Ethics Committee releasing a report after a member has resigned.

[Congressman Steve Cohen]

Well, there's certainly precedent, and I've served with two of the members who were subject to these type issues. One was a Representative Massa that didn't last long in the House. He was involved with the sex situation as well. And he was, they continued to research him or look, investigate him after he had resigned from the House. He was from New York State, and that was not too long ago, maybe 10 years. And then before I got in Congress, Bill Boehner, who was a congressman from Nashville, later mayor, and then was in the state House when I was in the state Senate, also had a ethics complaint that carried on after and his report was released, as was Massa's. There have been reports that have been released, but the precedent's not the issue. The issue is what the United States Congress should do for the American public, to have them have faith in the government, in their Congress and in their public officials. And nobody, I think, in the public wants to see this covered up, wants to see people get away with bad deeds and misdeeds. And when you're going out of Congress and you're going back in the private sector, well, you could say there's precedent and don't worry about it. But when you're looking at being the United States Attorney General and you've got these issues that have been lodged against you and apparently substantial, or Matt Gaetz would not have resigned. Hide the report, which he had the control over at that point under precedent, then you've got a situation where you do a duty to the public and a duty to government by releasing those reports to the Senate for confirmation hearings to see whether this person should be the law enforcement, Highest law enforcement officer in the land. And I don't think, you know, Speaker Johnson said at first he was against it, he had anything to do with Ethics. And then he went to Sinai and he saw Moses, and Moses said, this is one of my commandments. Thou shalt not mess with Matt Gaetz.

[MSNBC Host]

So the Ethics Committee is unusual. It's 5 and 5. It's an equal number of Democrats and Republicans. Every other committee has a large number, many more members of the majority party than the minority party. Ethics has always been special that way. What's your experience working on the Ethics Committee in a situation like this? Is it likely that the Ethics Committee is unanimous or split in a partisan way on the contents of this report?

[Congressman Steve Cohen]

The Ethics Committee often works together in a nonpartisan fashion. And when I was on it, we did that. We had one sex case and it was reported out. And the individual did leave Congress eventually, but that's. We worked together. It was a pretty bipartisan place. And I don't know what will happen now, because Donald Trump is the President Elect and he's put the word out, I think, through Johnson. Everybody knows Johnson is just his mouthpiece and that he's the Charlie McCarthy of the situation. Not the Charlie. Yeah, Charlie McCarthy. That's who it was. And they'll be afraid. Fear is something that Trump likes to put into people's minds. He has people that are fearful of him, and they might just do what he wants. And if they do what he wants and if the Senate doesn't have hearings, we've got the end of American democracy and division of government like the Founding Fathers wanted it to be. The end of it in America after 250 years. That's what we're going into. Celebrating the 250th anniversary of the Constitution is the end of what the Founding Fathers wanted.

[MSNBC Host]

So there's 10 members of the Ethics Committee who have this report. Does that mean that each one of them probably has one staff person who's also read this report?

[Congressman Steve Cohen]

Probably, yes.

[MSNBC Host]

Yeah. So at least 20 people now working in the House who know the contents of this report.

[Congressman Steve Cohen]

Could one, you have to mention the staffers. There are many staffers.

[MSNBC Host]

That's what I mean, the staffer. I'm adding the staff to it. So could one member of the committee read that report into the Congressional Record on the floor of the House? Is there some method like that that could make it public?

[Congressman Steve Cohen]

You know, I don't, you're not supposed to do that. You're not supposed to reveal anything and take anything out and make it public. And it's supposed to be the action of the committee and that's what they do and they try to have a majority. I think all five Democrats will vote to release it. The question is, is there one person that will stand up on the Republican side in spite of Mike Johnson's protestations and obviously Donald Trump's request?

[MSNBC Host]

Yeah. You just need that six vote majority to do it. And that just means one Republican. Congressman Steve Cohen, thank you very much for sharing your expertise with us tonight.

[Congressman Steve Cohen]

It's good to be with you and I just wish Jimmy Breslin was here.

[MSNBC Host]

He would understand it. Thank you very much, Congressman. You're welcome. Thank you. We're coming up. The one thing that we know Donald Trump has in common with Dracula is that they're both wide awake. At 4:03am we'll show you what Donald Trump did, maybe while he was still in bed, maybe not at 4:03am this morning. Next.

[MSNBC Announcer]

MSNBC Films presents the Sing Sing Chronicles, a new four part series from NBC News studios featuring decades of investigative reporting from DATELINE producer Dan Slepian that exposes the injustices of wrongful convictions. I spent half my life in prison.

[Professor May Nye]

And that's time we can't get back.

[MSNBC Announcer]

The Sing sing chronicles first two episodes premiere Saturday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[MSNBC Host]

The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim is a brand new podcast from Sky News with me, Sky News lead World News presenter Yalda Hakim and me, Richard Engel, chief former correspondent for NBC News. Every week we'll be reporting from the frontline of the world's trouble spots and asking the big questions to the world's most important and influential people. Join us for the ground truth to help you understand what is happening in the world today and why it matters to you. So that's the World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim.

[Congressman Steve Cohen]

Listen every Wednesday, wherever you get your.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Podcasts, what's causing the rise in book banning?

[MSNBC Host]

On my podcast, Velshi Banned Book Club, I speak with authors of banned books to try and find out. I think what they're really objecting to is that a young person has perceived the hypocrisy and corruption of the generation that has created their world. This book saved me in a lot of ways and then I published it hoping to help people find a blueprint to heal.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Season 2 of Belshiban Book Club. All episodes available now.

[MSNBC Host]

Donald Trump's so called border czar, Thomas Homan did not say one word about asking for help from state police and for mass deportation. And even more importantly, he did not say one word about using military assets.

[Thomas Homan]

We already working on the plan. I'll be going down to Mar a Lago this week to put the final touches on plan. But yeah, we're going to take the handcuffs off ice. ICE knows who they're looking for. ICE knows who they are. So yeah, we're going to take the handcuffs off ice. We're going to do the job, secure the country, protect the American communities and arrest the bad guys first. I've been asked a thousand times, how many people can you remove the first year? Well, how many agents do I have? Can we bring rehired agents back? The ones that retire bring them back and rehired them. How many buses do I have? How much money do I have for airplanes? Right. Can DoD assist? Because DoD can take off our plate. There's a lot of what ifs. I don't know what the current budget is right now. I don't have insight on what currently ICE and CBP has for budget. How much money can be reprogrammed. I can tell you this. President Trump's committed to doing whatever he can to get us the money we need.

[MSNBC Host]

Joining our discussion now is May Nye, professor of History and Asian American Studies at Columbia University. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Listening carefully to what the guy who's going to be in charge of this just said. He said he wants to. In order to do this, he asks, can we bring back retired agents? How many trucks do we have? How many planes do we have? He never says how many soldiers do we have and who from the military can we use to do this?

[Professor May Nye]

Well, he did say he was going to ask DOD for help. I don't know what they're going to do, but I think they are going to have some big raids. They're going to go after undocumented people or maybe just immigrants in our cities, in our workplaces. I think we should be prepared to see mass deportations once Trump takes office.

[MSNBC Host]

There was when the Eisenhower administration did this, they were claiming that they got up to a million people pushed back across the border. A lot of disputes about that, thinking that the real number was maybe half that. Many of those people eventually came back. There are citizens now in this country whose grandparents were caught up in that Eisenhower deportation move. So what is the record of this kind of thing actually working?

[Professor May Nye]

Well, in the mid-50s, they did declare a so called war against the undocumented in the Texas border area. And they did apprehend over a million people. That was one year. The next year it went down to fewer than 250,000 people. So it was the kind of thing that I think Trump is likely to do. A big show of force, very spectacular, a lot of raids. I don't know that they have the capacity to round up 12 million people, let alone 20 million people. It's a huge logistical operation. Obviously it would be very costly. I don't know about the military. He could try to use the military. But here's the thing. I was listening to Governor Healey, who you, you played that interview with her. They cannot make local law enforcement responsible for immigration. That's a constitutional question. The 10th amendment says that the federal government cannot coerce states into enforcing federal laws and immigration is a federal responsibility. So they can be pressure, there can be threats. You know, they tried to threaten, we'll take all your money away if you don't do this. We'll have to see how this plays out because Donald Trump doesn't have any qualms about tearing up the Constitution either.

[MSNBC Host]

Professor Mayn and I thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Professor May Nye]

Thank you for having me.

[MSNBC Host]

Coming up, a major development in Ukraine. The Biden administration has authorized Ukraine to use long range missiles in the war against Russia. Former U.S. ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul joins us next. President Biden has authorized Ukraine's use of long range missiles capable of strikes inside Russia. The New York Times reports the weapons are likely to be initially employed against Russian and North Korean troops in defense of Ukrainian forces in the Kursk region of western Russia. US officials said Mr. Biden's decision is a major change in US policy and came in response to Russia's surprise decision to bring North Korean troops into the fight, Officials said. A spokesman for Vladimir Putin claimed the move would add, quote, fuel to the fire. In a radio interview with NPR before the election, Florida Republican Congressman Mike Walz, who is now Donald Trump's choice for national security adviser, was open to the idea of providing long range missiles to Ukraine. We have leverage, like taking the handcuffs off of the long range weapons we provided Ukraine as well. Chairing our discussion now is Michael McFaul, who served as U.S. ambassador to Russia from 2012 to 2014. He's an MSNBC international affairs analyst. Ambassador McFaul, how does this affect the situation?

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

Well, it gives President Zelensky and his warriors hope that they can hold that region that you just reported on, the Kursk region, where Ukrainian forces are inside Russia today. And they want to hold that until January 20th because they believe that there's going to be pressure on them from President elect Trump to begin to negotiate. And if there's going to be land for peace swaps, they want to be able to swap this Russian land for.

[MSNBC Host]

Ukrainian land as we go forward. Is this essentially the last move that the Biden administration has to make in Ukraine before January 20th?

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

I don't think so. I think they should do more. One, they should get all military assistance to Ukraine before January 20th. Two, I think they should put in a whole range of new sanctions. They should sanction all these vessels that Russia is now using to circumvent their original sanctions. They could do that. Third, there are billions of dollars of Russian central bank assets sitting in American banks. They should, they froze those. Now they should seize them and give them to Ukrainian development fund because you can be sure that President Trump is not going to do that. And lastly, I think they should declare Russia a state sponsor of terrorism. Cuba's on that list. By the way, is Cuba a greater terrorist country than Russia? No. And I think by doing so they send a signal that they understand what Russia is doing from the long from the get go. And by the way, might even give Trump's negotiators a chit that they might play should there actually be a negotiation. I'm not optimistic that there will be, but if there is, they're giving President Trump a chit to play.

[MSNBC Host]

It also puts the Trump administration in the position of saying, are we going to remove these things?

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

Exactly. That's why today was such an important decision. Puts pressure on them to pull it back. Same with the sanctions. Same with seizing the assets. I think it ties their hands and I think it ties their hands appropriately. I would have recommended all these things two years ago.

[MSNBC Host]

I want to be clear about that.

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

But I think the Biden administration should use this time wisely. They're still in charge until January 20th.

[MSNBC Host]

Ambassador Michael McFaul, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

Thanks for having me.

[MSNBC Host]

And coming up, I've read only one post election analysis piece about what happened in the election. And I hate that genre because most of what is written is about elections. After the elections is unbearably simple minded. But Nathan Heller makes an important case that the most ignored factor in the election is the way knowledge really flows in our society. Now he'll join us next.

[MSNBC Announcer]

MSNBC Films presents a new four part series from NBC News studios that exposes the injustices of wrongful convictions. The sing Sing chronicles first two episodes premier Saturday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[MSNBC Host]

Dawn had not yet broken on the election results when Democrats began their favored ritual of falling out of love. Reasons were enumerated why Kamala Harris, the candidate who weeks earlier had been a magnet for enthusiasm, was an obvious poor choice to run for president. She was too coastal, it was suggested, too centrist, too unprimaried, too woke, too female. Those are the opening words of Nathan Heller's article in the New Yorker titled Republican Victory and the Ambience of Information. It is the only, and I mean the only post election analysis that I have read. I hate the genre, but Nathan Heller makes a convincing case that the most ignored factor in the election is the way knowledge flows in our society, what he calls the ambience of information. Quote Information travels differently across the population. Ideas that used to come from local newspapers or TV and drift around a community now come along an unpredictable path. Detail, even when it's available, doesn't travel widely. Big, sloppy notions do. And Donald Trump was full of big sloppy notions. And Donald Trump had more help spreading those big sloppy notions than any candidate in history. Quote Trump's command of the ambiance of information wouldn't have been possible without his own platforms, such as Truth Social, as well as allies such as Fox News CEO Suzanne Scott, who in 2020 excoriated her team after they fact checked Trump, and Elon Musk, who, hoping for executive branch power over his own sector, largely funded more than $175 million worth of pro Trump outreach. People increasingly take in news by incidental encounter. They are rubbed by the news rather than by seeking it out. Trump has maximized his influence over networks that people rub against and has filled them with information that, true or not, seems all of a coherent piece. The actual speeches didn't seem to matter. They existed simply to set a vibe and keep certain broad suggestions. Immigration Big problem. Biden administration so corrupt Drifting into the ether in his closing paragraph, Nathan Heller reminds us of the voters who could never be reached by the Harris 82 page detailed description of economic policies to help them in a country where more than half of adults have literacy below a sixth grade level. Ambient information, however thin and wrong, is more powerful than actual facts. A majority of the American public doesn't believe information that goes against what it thinks it knows. And a lot of what it thinks it knows originates in the brain of Donald Trump. He has polluted the well of received wisdom and what passes for common sense in America. Joining our discussion now is Nathan Heller. He's a staff writer for the New Yorker magazine. Welcome to the only post election discussion on this program about what happened. This notion of ambience of information and those big sloppy facts and the way you presented it coincides with everything I've ever learned about that 5, 6% of voters, those last ones who pay the least attention of any voters out there. You're not talking about the people who watch this program, you know, all year and read the New York Times all the time. You're talking about those people who aren't trying to get this information and how they end up with the information.

[Nathan Heller]

Exactly. It's the way that they receive it. All the same. And part of what I think that Trump was particularly adept at in the course of his campaign was to figure out how to plant ideas, as I say, in that ether which all of us, in the course of our lives, we move through and we pick up fragments of ideas, perhaps without actually realizing it.

[MSNBC Host]

Yeah, I've always made the point that the people who you're trying to reach that are persuadable, their relationship to politics is like my relationship to golf. I only know the name Tiger Woods. If you say to me, who's the best golfer in America? If it's not Tiger woods, then that's all I've got. And I'm never going to make an effort ever to know more. I'm going to, as you put it, bump into that information.

[Nathan Heller]

Exactly. I think that's the way that a lot of the country operates. And I think we saw that in the swing over the course of this election in a rightward direction. I became aware of this because I was working at the end of the summer on a profile of the vice president for the New Yorker's stylish sister of Vogue. And as a result of that, I was up close with the campaign a lot and I saw that a lot of the messaging was being put out, but for some reason it wasn't actually getting through.

[MSNBC Host]

I want to read another passage from your article. You say it's about seeding the ambience of information, throwing facts and fake facts alike into an environment of low Attention with the confidence that, like minnows released individually into a pond, they will eventually school and spawn notions must add up to a unified vision, but also be able to travel on their own, because that's how information moves in a viral. And Donald Trump's attitude toward the southern border is a hunk of information that certainly travels on its own, I think.

[Nathan Heller]

So, yes, there are people who have ideas about what is going on at the border and what is not under the Curtin administration that are not actually aligning with any actual information. And the question is, where do those ideas originate and how do they travel and how are they received? What is a traditional sort of a micro targeting approach is all about directing specific pieces of information and particular arguments to particular populations. But a lot of the time now we don't actually know how people are receiving the ideas which they are receiving. It's kind of an unpredictable path because a lot of us are on the social media where we pick up ideas at great speed. We get a lot of information out of national news as opposed to out of a local ecosystem or a regional community, which was more the model in the past.

[MSNBC Host]

And you make the point, stress the point, that in this world of the ambience of information, you just couldn't have more help. Donald Trump couldn't possibly have had more help. A television network fully devoted to him since the day he started as a candidate, for over 10 years now. And now Twitter, fully devoted to Donald Trump and then his own social media platforms. So two social media platforms, including the biggest of its style, Twitter, fully committed to Donald Trump.

[Nathan Heller]

I think he has a lot behind him in this respect. I mean, those are not all platforms, but they are pretty large platforms and they're platforms which at the moment are particularly conducive to the spreading of information, whether it's true or not. There is not a lot of the fact checking which goes on on X at the moment, for example. There's a lot of misinformation there. It's an environment in which all kinds of ideas can be hinted at in the most general way and can thrive. And that's, I think, an ecosystem that has really benefited from Trump.

[MSNBC Host]

Yeah. Nathan Holler in the article is what is the title of the article is the Republican Victory and the Ambiance of Information. It is in the New Yorker. It is a must read. It is the only read I have done about the election after the election. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Nathan Heller]

What a pleasure. Thank you.

[MSNBC Host]

The New Yorker's Nathan Heller gets tonight's.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Last word when news breaks Go beyond the headlines with the MSNBC app.

[MSNBC Host]

We begin with breaking news from Washington.

[MSNBC Announcer]

D.C. watch your favorite shows live.

[MSNBC Host]

It can feel difficult to wrap your head around all of the news that will just not stop unfolding.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Get real time analysis from live blogs to in depth essays and the latest Updates on the2024 election. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app.