Lawrence: Trump is making Epstein co-conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell’s wish come true

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell – "Trump is making Epstein co-conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell’s wish come true"

Release Date: August 5, 2025

In this compelling episode of "The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell," host Lawrence O’Donnell delves into the intricate and troubling connections between former President Donald Trump, Ghislaine Maxwell, and the broader implications for American politics and justice. Drawing from his extensive background in politics and media, O’Donnell offers a thorough analysis supported by interviews, legal insights, and victim testimonies.

---

1. Donald Trump's Manipulation of the Justice System

Lawrence O’Donnell begins by exposing how Donald Trump has been actively undermining federal institutions to serve personal interests, particularly concerning Ghislaine Maxwell, a convicted sex trafficker.

O’Donnell [01:13]: "Donald Trump, who meddles in every aspect of the federal government that he can, including now the firing of the commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics for telling the truth about job statistics..."

O’Donnell criticizes Trump's influence over the Justice Department, highlighting the unusual move of transferring Maxwell to a lower-security facility despite her conviction.

O’Donnell [20:30]: "Donald Trump could, for example, pardon Ghislaine Maxwell, just completely erase her conviction and release her from prison."

2. The Role of Todd Blanche and the Justice Department

The episode scrutinizes the actions of Todd Blanche, Trump's criminal defense lawyer, who arranged a meeting with Maxwell in federal prison. O’Donnell questions the motives and implications of this clandestine meeting.

O’Donnell [01:13]: "But Donald Trump sends his criminal defense lawyer to talk to Ghislaine Maxwell and send exactly the opposite message. To send the message that friends of Donald Trump are above the law..."

Blanche's actions are portrayed as directly conflicting with the Department of Justice’s mission to uphold the rule of law, suggesting a deliberate effort to protect Trump’s interests over justice.

3. Victim Impact Statements and Maxwell’s Lack of Remorse

O’Donnell emphasizes the devastating impact of Maxwell's crimes through powerful victim testimonies from the courtroom, underscoring Maxwell's refusal to fully acknowledge her wrongdoing.

Federal Prosecutor at Sentencing [Early Transcript]: "They were predators together. They molested kids together."

Victim Statement [Various Times]: "I want to be clear about one thing. Without question. Jeffrey Epstein was a terrible pedophile. But I never would have met Jeffrey Epstein if not for you..."

These testimonies highlight the severe and lasting trauma inflicted by Maxwell and Epstein, contrasting sharply with Maxwell’s minimal expressions of remorse.

4. Public Opinion and Polling Data on Trump's Corruption

The episode presents recent polling data indicating widespread public distrust in Donald Trump, particularly regarding his handling of the Epstein-Maxwell case.

O’Donnell [19:15]: "New Polling shows that 81% say Donald Trump is to blame for hiding information about the Epstein."

O’Donnell [01:13]: "65% say Donald Trump has been very or somewhat corrupt."

These statistics reveal a significant erosion of Trump's public standing, linking his actions to broader concerns about economic policies and corruption.

5. Legislative and Political Repercussions

O’Donnell explores the potential political fallout from Trump's actions, including the impact on the upcoming midterm elections and the stability of federal institutions.

O’Donnell [03:00]: "This is part of the undermining of the fabric of our country in terms of truth being the sort of coin of the realm."

He predicts that Trump's maneuvers could galvanize opposition within both the Republican Party and the broader electorate, potentially reshaping the political landscape.

6. Legal Experts Weigh In

Throughout the episode, O’Donnell incorporates insights from legal analyst Andrew Weissman, who criticizes the Justice Department's handling of Maxwell's case.

Andrew Weissman [25:39]: "It complicity in what she's doing is the sort of coup up that makes this doubly evil."

Weissman's commentary underscores the severity of the Justice Department’s breaches of protocol and ethics, further alienating the public and eroding trust in government institutions.

7. The Path Forward and Calls for Accountability

Concluding the discussion, O’Donnell calls for greater transparency and accountability within the Justice Department, advocating for stringent measures to prevent future abuses of power.

O’Donnell [30:43]: "They can do it. But you have to ask why? Why would you do this?"

O’Donnell urges listeners to remain vigilant and demand integrity from their leaders to restore faith in the legal and political systems.

---

Key Takeaways

• Trump's Undermining of Federal Institutions: Donald Trump's interference with the Justice Department and other federal agencies to protect his interests and those of his associates, such as Ghislaine Maxwell.

• Justice Department's Breach of Protocol: The questionable transfer of Maxwell to a lower-security prison and the undisclosed motives behind Todd Blanche's meeting with her.

• Impact on Victims: Heart-wrenching testimonies from Maxwell's victims emphasize the lasting trauma and demand for justice, juxtaposed with Maxwell's lack of genuine remorse.

• Public Distrust in Trump: Significant polling data reflects a majority of Americans viewing Trump as corrupt and responsible for concealing information related to the Epstein-Maxwell case.

• Political Implications: The episode highlights potential shifts in the political landscape, with Trump's actions possibly leading to increased opposition and challenges in upcoming elections.

• Call for Accountability: A strong plea for increased transparency and ethical standards within the Justice Department to prevent further abuses of power.

---

Notable Quotes

1. Lawrence O’Donnell [01:13]:

   "Donald Trump... has no idea why his personal criminal defense lawyer went to a Florida federal prison to talk to an old friend of Donald Trump's convicted sex trafficker and rapist abuser of children, Ghislaine Maxwell."

2. Federal Prosecutor [At Maxwell's Sentencing]:

   "They were predators together. They molested kids together."

3. Victim Statement [Virginia Giuffre]:

   "I will worry about that until you're brought to justice. And what should that justice look like, Ghislaine? You deserve to spend the rest of your life in prison."

4. Andrew Weissman [25:39]:

   "It complicity in what she's doing is the sort of coup up that makes this doubly evil."

5. Lawrence O’Donnell [30:43]:

   "They can do it. But you have to ask why? Why would you do this?"

---

Conclusion

In this episode, Lawrence O’Donnell provides a critical examination of Donald Trump's actions surrounding Ghislaine Maxwell, highlighting significant breaches of justice and their profound impact on victims and the public's trust in political institutions. Through incisive analysis and poignant testimonies, O’Donnell underscores the urgent need for accountability and integrity within the highest levels of government.

Transcript

[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there, it's Kelly Ripa. And if you've been listening to my podcast, we are knee deep in season three. And if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on board. After years of interviewing celebs on camera, I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the cameras aren't rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls out of Page Six? Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office? Or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations about Jamie Foxx? Nowhere else. It's raw, it's honest, and best of all, it's off camera. And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off camera with Kelly Ripa now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Unknown]

Hello.

[Andrew Weissman]

Hi, this is Regional Power and Utility calling to inform you of an outstanding balance.

[Unknown]

I thought I paid that.

[Andrew Weissman]

You're scheduled for immediate shut off unless it's resolved today. I can help you make your payment right now.

[Unknown]

Learn to pause, reflect and protect yourself.

[Kelly Ripa]

From scams with the help of the AARP Fraud Watch Network.

[Unknown]

Nice try.

[Kelly Ripa]

Visit aarp.org fraudwatchnetwork to recognize fraud sooner.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Well, Donald Trump, who meddles in every aspect of the federal government that he can, including now the firing of the commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics for telling the truth about job statistics, claims that he, Donald Trump, has no idea why his personal criminal defense lawyer went to a Florida federal prison to talk to an old friend of Donald Trump's convicted sex trafficker and rapist abuser of children, Ghislaine Maxwell. We've all seen the photographs of Donald Trump hanging out with Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein during the Epstein and Maxwell reign of terror against more than a thousand children. Donald Trump just now has no idea why his former criminal defense lawyer, who he installed as the number two at the Justice Department, became the very first deputy attorney general in history to go to a prison to interview a convicted sex trafficker who the President of the United States personally wishes well. Donald Trump has said repeatedly, I wish her well when his old friend, the convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell, has been brought up to him in interviews. Donald Trump is, of course, in a position to make his own wish come true. Donald Trump could, for example, pardon Ghislaine Maxwell, just completely erase her conviction and release her from prison. Or he could just commute her sentence and release her from prison. But that might be something that has to wait until Donald Trump's last day in office because it could really hurt Republicans running for reelection next year who have devoted their political lives to the support of Donald Trump. And it could certainly hurt badly in the next presidential campaign. But if Donald Trump lets Ghislaine Maxwell out of prison on his last day in office in exchange for her publicly insisting that she and Jeffrey Epstein were never really friends with Donald Trump and that Donald Trump knew nothing about anything illegal that they had ever did, well, the last day of the presidency would be the time for him to do that. And then Donald Trump's wishing her well will really and fully come true. But because Donald Trump's wish is even more urgent than that. A week after Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer met with Ghislaine Maxwell, she was transferred to the easiest federal facility that exists for serving time, a facility that, according to these sentencing rules, does not allow sex offenders to serve time there. So someone had to wish really hard for a convicted sex trafficker to be transferred to that much more pleasant federal facility in Texas, where paparazzi photographers have now been able to photograph some of the people living there while they were working out. That's how low security a facility Ghislaine Maxwell is now enjoying, thanks to Donald Trump and his Justice Department, which has said nothing about why Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer was sent to talk to Ghislaine Maxwell before she was then sprung from the federal prison where she did not want to be serving time into the most comfortable possible place to serve federal time. Todd Blanche, the former Trump criminal defense lawyer, said the Department of Justice will share additional information about what we learned at the appropriate time. This would be a good time. This is an appropriate time. Last week was an appropriate time. Would have been an even better time. The one thing you can be guaranteed is that Todd Blanche will never share what he discussed with Ghislaine Maxwell. He will never share all of it. They were predators together. They molested kids together. Did Todd Blanche ask her about exactly what she did when she was molesting kids? They were predators together. They molested kids together. Those are the words of the federal prosecutor who spoke at Ghislaine Maxwell's sentencing hearing. Let me repeat them, she said. Prosecutor said they were predators together. They molested kids together. That prosecutor also said the defendant has shown absolutely no remorse for her crimes. She has not owned up to the truth. She has lied repeatedly. The judge in the case agreed with that statement. At the sentencing hearing, the prosecutor said, we asked the court to send a message that nobody is above the law and nobody is too rich or powerful to be held accountable. And Donald Trump sent his criminal defense lawyer to talk to Ghislaine Maxwell and send exactly the opposite message. To send the message that friends of Donald Trump are above the law and friends of Donald Trump are too rich and too powerful to be held accountable. That is the message that moving Ghislaine Maxwell to the easiest federal facility sends to her victims. The judge who sentenced Ghislaine Maxwell to 20 years in prison said this about the perjury charges against Ghislaine Maxwell. Quote, the defendant testified under oath in 2016 that she was not aware of Epstein's scheme to recruit underage girls for sexual massages and other than Virginia, was unaware if she had interacted with anyone under the age of 18 at Epstein's properties. She never gave Annie Farmer a massage. She was unaware whether Epstein possessed sex toys. She was unaware that he was engaging in sexual activity with anyone other than her. In the 1990s and 2000s, she never gave Epstein a massage. The credible testimony and evidence admitted at trial disproves these assertions which were made under oath. Now, which of those lies did she tell? Todd Blanche? All of them. The jury in Ghislaine Maxwell's trial, where she chose not to testify, believed the victims who testified against Maxwell. The judge believed those victims, too. The judge said the evidence at trial established that Ms. Maxwell directly and repeatedly and over the course of many years, participated in a horrific scheme to entice transportation and traffic underage girls, some as young as 14, for sexual abuse by and with Jeffrey Epstein. I will pause on those words for a moment by and with Epstein. It is important at the outset to emphasize that although Epstein was of course, central to this criminal scheme, Ms. Maxwell is not being punished in place of Epstein or as a proxy for Epstein. Like every other participant in a multi defendant case, Ms. Maxwell is being punished for the role that she played in the criminal conduct. As to that role, the trial evidence established that Ms. Maxwell was instrumental in the abuse of several underage girls and that she herself participated in some of the abuse. Ghislaine Maxwell herself personally molested children. And Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer goes and has a conversation with her and she's moved to an easier facility to serve time right away. And Donald Trump's wishing her well came true. So she's now guaranteed a very easy time in federal custody for the remainder of the Trump presidency. And then, on the last day of the Trump presidency, Ghislaine Maxwell could walk free in exchange for never saying anything negative about Donald Trump. Today, two victims of Ghislaine Maxwell filed statements in court about the possible release of grand jury testimony, including their testimony. One of the statements to the judge said, I beg the court to make sure it is the utmost priority that in any sort of release all and every detail that could possibly reveal our identities be redacted. Why not be completely transparent, show us all the files with only the necessary redactions be done with it and allow me us to heal. The other statement by a victim asked the judge, quote to consider having an approved third party review these documents to ensure that no victims names or likenesses are revealed through this release. That victim statement also said, I feel like the DOJ's and FBI's priority is protecting the third party, the wealthy men by focusing on scrubbing their names off the files of which the victims know who they are. To learn that our own president has utilized thousands of agents to protect his identity and these high profile individuals is monumentally mind blowing. New Polling shows that 81% say Donald Trump is to blame for hiding information about the Epstein. Polling on every front is disastrous for Donald Trump these days. A new poll showing 86% of people are stressed about grocery prices and the tricks Donald Trump has come up with to try to distract from the reality of the economy and his long friendship with Jeffrey Epstein only add to the public belief about Trump corruption. 65% say Donald Trump has been very or somewhat corrupt. And that poll was taken before Donald Trump became the first president in history to fire the commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics for telling the truth about labor statistics. Today's justification for firing the commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics was that she was appointed by Joe Biden. But Joe Biden didn't fire the commissioner who was appointed by Donald Trump, who Joe Biden inherited like every president before him. It never occurred to Joe Biden to fire the commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Ronald Reagan in eight years of the presidency, never appointed one. Jimmy Carter appointed the commissioner of the Bureau of Labor statistics in the second to last year of his presidency, 1979. And that commissioner appointed by Jimmy Carter then served through two Republican presidents, Ronald Reagan and George H.W. bush, all the way to 1993 when Bill Clinton became the next president to appoint a commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. So yes, Donald Trump is very or somewhat corrupt. 65% of the people are right about that. And it is very corrupt to fire a commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics for telling the truth about employment numbers in this country. And it is criminally corrupt, criminally corrupt to transfer a molester of children, a sex trafficker of children, to an easier federal facility because you wish her well. They were predators together. They molested kids together. That's what the prosecutor said. What is Todd Blanche going to say if he ever says anything about his still secret interview with Ghislaine Maxwell? Is he going to say they molested kids together? Or is he going to lie about Ghislaine Maxwell the way she has lied about herself under oath? Ghislaine Maxwell spoke at her sentencing hearing with some of her victims sitting right there in the room. She told the judge and the victims what the greatest regret of her life is. And it wasn't molesting kids. She said, it is the greatest regret of my life that I ever met Jeffrey Epstein. And while speaking directly to the victims, she steadfastly refused to apologize. She just said to you, all the victims, those who came in court and to those outside, I am sorry for the pain that you experienced. Not sorry for the pain I caused you. Not sorry for what I did. Not sorry for what I did to you. Sorry for the pain that you experienced. And you know she's lying. Does Todd Blanche believe that? Is Todd Blanche going to tell Donald Trump Delaine Maxwell is sorry for the pain those children experienced? Donald Trump won't even have to issue a statement when he releases Ghislaine Maxwell from prison at the end of his presidency. He can just do it. He won't have to justify it. He won't have to make anything up. He doesn't need anything from Todd Blanche to do that. One of the victims who spoke at the sentencing hearing said, I was assaulted, raped and trafficked countless times in New York and Florida during a three year period. Things happened that were so traumatizing that to this day, I am unable to speak about them. I don't even have the vocabulary to describe them in the most literal sense of the word. Epstein and Maxwell terrified me. They told me that if I told anyone, no one would believe me. And if they did, they would kill me. And the people closest to me, I believed them. I was once bright, fun, outgoing and kind. I loved life and people genuinely enjoyed being around me. After meeting Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, it felt like someone shut off the lights to my soul. Another victim told the court, maxwell is today the same woman I met almost 20 years ago. Incapable of compassion and human common decency. Because of her wealth, her social status and connections, she believes herself beyond reproach and above the law. That victim now lives in a country where Donald Trump decides who is above the law. Virginia Giuffre asked her lawyer to read her statement in court for her, the lawyer said. This statement I am reading on behalf of my client, Virginia Giuffre, is written to Ghislaine Maxwell Jelaine. 22 years ago, in the summer of 2000, you spotted me at Mar a Lago in Florida, and you made a choice. You chose to follow me and procure me for Epstein. Just hours later, you and he abused me together for the first time. Together, you damaged me physically, mentally, sexually and emotionally. Together, you did unthinkable things that still have a corrosive impact on me to this day. I want to be clear about one thing. Without question. Jeffrey Epstein was a terrible pedophile. But I never would have met Jeffrey Epstein if not for you, for me, and for so many others. You opened the door to hell. And then, Ghislaine, like a wolf in sheep's clothing, you used your femininity to betray us. And you led us all through it. When you did that, you changed the course of our lives forever. You joked that you were like a new mother to us. As a woman, I think you understood the damage that you were causing. The price you were making us victims pay. You could have put an end to the rapes, the molestation, the sickening manipulation that you arranged, witnessed, and even partook in. You could have called the authorities and reported that you were part of something awful. I was young and naive when we met, but you knew that, in fact, you were counting on it. My life as a young person was just beginning. You robbed me of that by exploiting my hopes and ambitions. Ghislaine, the pain you have caused me is almost indescribable because of your choices and the world you brought me into. I don't sleep. Nightmares wake me at all hours. In those dreams, I relived the awful things that you and others did to me and the things that you forced me to do. Those memories will never go away. I have trouble meeting new people without questioning if somehow they're going to hurt me too. There is not a day that doesn't go by that I don't ask why. Why did you enjoy hurting us so much? I worry every single day and night that you will get away with it and evade being punished. I will worry about that until you're brought to justice. And what should that justice look like, Ghislaine? You deserve to spend the rest of your life in prison. In a jail cell. You deserve to be trapped in a cage forever. Just like you tracked your victims. That victim did not live to see the day Ghislaine Maxwell's wish came true when she got transferred to an easier facility. Virginia Giuffre took her own life four months ago. Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer had access to the Epstein files all year. He was part of the team studying the Epstein files to try to find every mention of Donald Trump. He was part of the team that went to the Oval Office to brief Donald Trump on how many times his name appears in the Epstein files. And with all of his access to the Epstein files, it never crossed Todd Blanche's mind that he might want to speak to Virginia Giuffre or any of the victims. The only woman who Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer wanted to talk to was the one who Donald Trump could help. If she helped Donald Trump. Ghislaine Maxwell is the only person in this story about whom Donald Trump has ever said I wish her well. He never said that about Virginia Giuffre. Donald Trump has never said I wish her well about a single victim of the woman who Donald Trump still wishes well. The first and only president in history to send well wishes through the news media publicly to an accused and convicted child rapist serving federal time. At the Maxwell sentencing hearing, the prosecutor said this. What kind of person gets a 16 year old girl all alone at a ranch in the middle of nowhere and tells her to take off her clothes and get on a massage table so she can grope that girl's chest? What kind of person teaches a 14 year old girl how a middle aged man likes his penis to be touched? What kind of person sees a 17 year old girl on the street and pulls over so that she can persuade that girl to come to a house of horrors where that young girl will be trafficked for sex? What kind of person flies around on a plane with underage girls so that when her boyfriend travels, he always has a young girl to touch? What kind of person would use their privilege, their power in this world to intentionally prey on the vulnerable young girl from struggling families? Girls without fathers, girls who need help. These are the actions of a person who was indifferent to the suffering of other human beings. Donald Trump, always and permanently indifferent to the suffering of other human beings, still wishes her well? Andrew Weissman will join us next.

[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there, it's Kelly Ripa and if you've been listening to my podcast, we are knee deep in season three and if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on board. After years of interviewing celebs on camera, I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the cameras aren't rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls out of Page Six? Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office, or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations about Jamie Foxx? Nowhere else. It's raw, it's honest, and best of all, it's off camera. And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off camera with Kelly Rippa now. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Cash Flow Crunch On Deck's Small Business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $100,000 right.

[Andrew Weissman]

When you need it.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply [e-mail] funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes. Your business loan may be issued by On Deck or Celtic Bank. On Deck does not lend to North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. Riley Herbst from 2311 Racing checking in.

[Andrew Weissman]

Got a break in between team meetings.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Sounds like the perfect time for some.

[Andrew Weissman]

Fast paced fun at Chumba Casino.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

No waiting, just instant action to keep you going.

[Andrew Weissman]

So next time you need a pick.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Me up, fire it up and take a spin. Play [e-mail] let's chumba no purchase necessary. VGW Group Void where prohibited by law. CTNC's 21+ sponsored by Jumbo Casino Here's Donald Trump on Friday not saying that he won't pardon Ghislaine Maxwell. Ghislaine Maxwell, serving 20 years in prison for sex trafficking. For sex trafficking is clemency on the table for her in exchange for testimony? I'm allowed to do it, but nobody's asked me to do it. I know nothing about it. I don't know anything about the case, but I know I have the right to do it. I have the right to give pardons. I've given pardons to people. But before leading him off our discussion tonight is Andrew Weisman, former FBI general counsel and former chief of the Criminal Division in the Eastern District of New York. He's an MSNBC legal analyst. Andrew first of all to the Deputy Attorney General interviewing Ghislaine Maxwell about we have no idea what, since nothing's been revealed about it to Donald Trump now Discussing, openly discussing the possibility of pardoning.

[Andrew Weissman]

Well, to paraphrase from your intro and what was said at the sentencing, what kind of person who has taken an oath of office and serves as the leader of the Department of Justice decides that it's appropriate to give singular and beneficial treatment disproportionately to someone like Ghislaine Maxwell? What kind of person decides that they should get that benefit when other people who are similarly situated do not get that? What kind of person decides that's within their oath of office to meet with her to get information that by all accounts is, can only really benefit and is intended to benefit, in my view, one person, which is the President of the United States. I mean, to me, that complicity in what she's doing is the sort of COVID up that makes this sort of doubly evil. And without any consultation with the victims that you've talked so eloquently about, Lawrence and Andrew.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So this move to this other federal facility, which according to the rules is not allowed to take sex offenders, the Bureau of Prisons, apparently someone there has to be, has to issue a waiver. No one at the Bureau of Prisons is willing to say who allowed this to happen. So it's all happening as far as we know, against the rules and in secret.

[Andrew Weissman]

Yeah. So the Bureau of Prisons is a, is a part of the Department of Justice, and so the Attorney General can direct it. In any normal Department of Justice under a normal Republican or Democratic administration, this does not happen. Somebody had to intercede here, both because of the nature of what she was convicted of, something which has been confirmed and affirmed on appeal, by the way, and the length of her sentence. Both of those make it highly inappropriate for her to be housed in a camp with other people. It's not safe for them. It's also not something she's entitled to or deserving of. And you would think, you know, the first thing you do in the Department of Justice is you think about if I accord this to one person, what shouldn't I be according it to everyone who is similarly situated. That's the whole idea of a rule of law, of treating likes alike, and that this is something we saw on Trump 1.0, which is friends get treated better and enemies get treated worse. It is the antithesis of the rule of law. And it's so right that you are highlighting this because it is somebody who is so, so unimaginably undeserving of this. And you have to ask yourself why? Why would somebody be trying to buy this and give her this benefit. What are they getting for it?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. And so there's a lot of fireworks that go off in Trump world every day that try to distract from situations like this. This has not gotten the attention it deserves. I think the moving of the prison, which is just an astonishing move for them to do so publicly like this. But they apparently have the, that they can do it.

[Andrew Weissman]

I, I think they certainly legally can do it. But you know, in my world, I sort of separate things between things that are just, you know, illegal, things that they cannot do that violate either the Constitution or statute, and things that are simply beyond the pale from a sort of judgment and what it means in terms of policy or rule of law. And this falls into the latter. It's something they can do. But you do have to ask yourself why? Why would you do this? And you know, that's the big unanswered question which I do think the Trump administration is taking a huge hit for, is the flip flopping on saying they're going to release everything and then giving beneficial treatment to somebody who is the right, literally, really the right hand man in this case, right hand woman of Jeffrey Epstein who is guilty of such horrific crimes according to a jury.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. And the reason I've been concentrating on this program, on the actual evidence, on the actual witness statements, on the victim statements, on what the judge found to be the facts in the case, what the jury found to be the facts in the case, what the prosecutors say is that we know the day seems to be approaching where the Todd Blanche and or some other operators in Trump administration and possibly Donald Trump himself, will be trying to tell us that Ghislaine Maxwell is one of the victims in this story and has suffered enough.

[Andrew Weissman]

So I would put that in the same category of so many things where up is down and white is black. And it's straight out of Orwell's 1984 where language has no meaning and truth has no meaning. You see it whether it's with the election was stolen, whether it's regard to January 6, where the people who are investigating are now considered criminals and, and perpetrating a tragedy in the people who are criminals, after all due process and after either admitting guilt on their own or being found guilty by a jury are now considered to be victim. I mean, all of this is part of sort of the undermining of the fabric of our country in terms of truth being the sort of coin of the realm.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Andrew Weissman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Andrew Weissman]

You're welcome.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up, two of the Texas Democrats who had to leave their state to stop Donald Trump and the Republican Party from creating five new Republican congressional districts in Texas, will join us right here in New York in the studio. That's next.

[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there, it's Kelly Ripa, and if you've been listening to my podcast, we are knee deep in Season three, and if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on board. After years of interviewing celebs on camera, I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the cameras aren't rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls out of Page 6? Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office, or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations about Jamie Foxx? Nowhere else. It's raw, it's honest, and best of all, it's off camera. And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off camera with Kelly Ripa now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Cash Flow Crunch on Deck's Small Business.

[Unknown]

Line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $100,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage pay, restock inventory or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply [e-mail] funds could be available as soon as tomorrow, depending on certain loan attributes. Your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic. Bank On Deck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans an amount subject to lender approval.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Summer's heating up and so is the action with chumba casino and 2311 racing. Whether you're trackside with Bubba, Riley and Tyler or cooling off at home, the fun never stops at Chumba Casino, the online social casino packed with free to play games like slots, blackjack and more. Jump into [e-mail] and score your free welcome bonus. 2 million free gold coins and 2 free sweeps coins. No purchase necessary. VGW group void where prohibited by law. CTNC is 21 + sponsored by Chumba Casino have all members registered members.

[Andrew Weissman]

A quorum is not present.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The roll has been called and a quorum has not been established. He's not happy. Texas Democrats have left the state using their only option to block a redistricting scheme orchestrated by Donald Trump that could win the Republicans five congressional seats next year, Politico notes. Importantly, breaking quorum is not a crime. However, if the absentee Democratic lawmakers remained in Texas, Governor Abbott could order state troopers to haul them to the Capitol. NBC News reports. The bulk of the 50 plus Democrats who left the state are in Illinois, where they've been welcomed by Democratic Governor JB Pritzker. Others are in Boston and Albany and New York, where Democratic Governor Kathy Hochul, in response to Texas, is pushing for a change in state law to allow redistricting in future years. Governor Hochul held a press conference with those Texas Democrats earlier today. As I said, history will judge us on how we respond to this moment. But here in New York, we will not stand on the sidelines with the timid souls on the sidelines who don't care, will not invest their heart and soul into this battle. This is a war. We are at war. And that's why the gloves are off. And I say bring it on. California Governor Gavin Newsom is working on a plan to add Democratic House seats in California, Politico reports. California, California's Texas thwarting gerrymander has swiftly transformed from fantasy to reality. Democrats in the House and the state legislature are coalescing around a plan to draw a half dozen Republican incumbents into oblivion and persuade California voters to approve the new congressional maps before next year's midterms. It could result in as many as five new blue seats and Democrats holding all but four of California's 52 congressional districts, according to a slide presented to members of Congress and viewed by politico. And joining us now, two of the Democratic state representatives that have left the state, Mihaela Plesser and Aaron Swiner. Mihaela, I just saw you sitting right there beside the governor. That's the biggest welcome you could possibly get to New York. We are welcoming you here to New York tonight. What made you do this? How did it come to this?

[Unknown]

Well, this is really about the people and their access to the ballot box and their access to their vote. We're talking about changing congressional lines in the middle of a decade without census data, without anything to really provoke this. The only thing that provoked this was a phone call to Governor Abbott from Donald Trump. So this is about democracy. This is about fighting for that democracy. And this is about doing the right thing for voters. I not just Texas voters, but all throughout the nation.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And Erin, you've done it before. You were in that last time when the Texas legislative Democrats in the legislature left town to try to block things. What's different this time?

[E]

I think what unites both these quorum breaks is that they're about democracy and saving democracy. We thought the threat was big in 2021 with the restrictions on the access to the ballot box. And it was. But this is even bigger. This gets at the fundamental of Texans being able to choose who represents them. I have a Hispanic community in my district that has been part of a Hispanic opportunity district where those voters get to choose who represents them. They're about to be buried in a district that is over 60% white and having their voice stolen. That's wrong. And we have to fight back.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So how does it work? When did you decide you were going to do this? And how much time did you have to grab a toothbrush?

[Unknown]

Well, the legislative special sessions are 30 days. And when we originally got the call from the governor that we were going to have this special session, it was supposed to be about flood mitigation and recovery for the catastrophic floods that just happened in Texas. It's one month since over 130 people lost their lives. We were told that we were going to talk about property taxes and the star test. And then this phone call came from Donald Trump, and that completely changed. And instead of having hearings on flooding and recovery, we were having hearings on redistricting. We had eight hearings on redistricting and only two hearings on flood recovery. And the thing is, is that what was disrespectful about all of this is that the Republican caucus of Texas decided to, on the first day of debate on the anniversary of the flooding, put redistricting on the call. Not recovery, not rebuilding, redistricting. And that's just disrespectful, not just to Texans, but to the victims.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And so was redistricting just added to the agenda, or did it displace other things that were on the legislative agenda?

[E]

I think the governor is trying to use these other issues as a smoke shield for this nakedly partisan power grab. We do need to get resources to the communities impacted by flooding, but we can do that without being in a special session. The governor has that authority right now. And on top of that, the legislation we really need to reform land use to make sure we don't have building and floodplains and aren't building in ways that exacerbates flood. Those bills aren't even being referred to committee. The flood work is smoke screens. This is a session about their political power.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And so how long do you have to stay out for this to work?

[Unknown]

Well, the special session was called for 30 days, and it ends on August 19th. So that that's the intent to stay out until August 19th.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So if you stay out until August 19th, then that's the end of this. Legislative session. And then does the governor just have to call another one to try to do this again?

[E]

We'll see if the governor tries again. I think we're already seeing our plan work. Representative Kevin Kiley from California Republican just announced his intent to introduce legislation in Congress to ban mid cycle redistricting. Well, I think we can say we heartily agree we should not do this mid cycle. And if we can move people in other states, then maybe we can all agree to unilaterally disarm and move forward with the maps we have.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So that sounds like the Gavin Newsom threatened plan in California has California Republicans afraid of that. So a California Republican in Congress now introducing a bill to just ban it all nationally.

[E]

Exactly. And they should be afraid because if they pull this type of extraordinary and extreme tactic, we don't have any choice but to respond in kind. We don't want to, but we have to to defend our constituents.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We have to squeeze in a quick commercial break here. We're going to be back with both of you right after this break. We'll be right back. We're only three seats short from taking back the House. That is a historically close number. That is what has House Republicans and Donald Trump scared to death of what is going to happen in the midterm election. That's why we're seeing this extraordinary action in Texas. But you also are going to see an extraordinary response from Democrats coast to coast throughout the country. And at all points in between Texas state representatives Hala Plesser and Aaron Zweiner back with us right here in New York, about as far away from Texas as you could get in right now. So there's Hakeem Jeffries describing the stakes for him in the House of Representatives. How do you see the stakes?

[Unknown]

Well, I see the stakes being about voters. This is all about making sure that people have the representation that they deserve. What we are seeing is congressional districts being carved up using AI with precision so that they can identify which voters they want in their districts and what voters they don't want in their districts. This is extremely dangerous for democracy. We need to stand up to this type of stuff. Look, I remember when Donald Trump called the secretary of state from Georgia and he said, I just need you remember, 11,000 votes. And what did the secretary of state from Georgia say? They said no. Donald Trump did the same thing. He called the governor of Texas and he said, I just need five more congressional seats. But instead of standing up for Texans, instead of standing up for democracy, Governor Abbott just said, okay. And that's why we're in this special session, truly. And that's why Texas Democrats have to stand up. This isn't just about Texas. This is about reshaping the way the entire nation looks. And it's going to have major consequences.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So do people in their districts understand what the stakes are for them in their congressional districts?

[E]

I think we're working hard to make sure to tell that story. I actually had a people's hearing in my district on Saturday where over 250 people came out to learn about the maps and express their anger. And I think what folks are realizing is that whatever they're upset about, whether it's rising grocery prices or fear about not being able to get financial aid for their kids to go to school or not being able to find a good job or worries about health care, that's all tied to Congress. And what we see is Donald Trump trying to avoid accountability for his policies that aren't working. And he's trying to create that lack of accountability by disempowering voters. So what I see is Texans wanting to fight back.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So as you go forward, is there a is this strategy working day to day or do you have the plan all the way through the end of the session?

[Unknown]

Look, I think the strategy has been working. I told you about those hearings that we held on redistricting. The majority of people, hundreds of people, showed up to testify against mid decade redistricting and against these proposed maps. Their voices were silenced. These hearings only lasted for five hours and then testimony was cut off. And another thing, if this was such an important topic in the 140 days that we had in the original session, it would have had a hearing. The redistricting committee would have at least had one hearing on it. In the 140 days that we were in our regular session, there was not one hearing in the redistricting. There was no conversations about redistricting. So it has become the primary topic of a special session, a special session that the taxpayers are paying for, by the way, $1.5 million every time he.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Calls a special Texas state. Representatives Mihaila Plesser and Aaron Zwiener, thank you both very much for joining us here in New York. Really appreciate it. That is tonight's last word.

[Andrew Weissman]

Hey, everybody, Conan o' Brien here with.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

An ad about my podcast.

[Andrew Weissman]

Conan o' Brien needs a friend. I've had so many fantastic conversations with.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

People I truly admire, people like Michelle Obama, Bruce Springsteen, Maya Rudolph, Tom Hanks.

[Andrew Weissman]

New episodes are out every Monday and we have a really good time. So subscribe and listen wherever you get your podcasts.