Lawrence: Trump knows Homan can't survive if video of him with undercover FBI agents becomes public

Summary

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The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Episode: Trump knows Homan can't survive if video of him with undercover FBI agents becomes public
Airdate: September 24, 2025
Host: Lawrence O’Donnell

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Brief Overview

In this episode, Lawrence O’Donnell unpacks explosive new reporting on Tom Homan, Donald Trump’s appointee as "border czar," who was allegedly captured on FBI video accepting a $50,000 cash bribe from undercover agents. O’Donnell draws parallels to the infamous Abscam stings of the 1970s, explores ongoing Congressional demands for the release of the “Homan files,” and interrogates the Trump administration’s silence. The episode then shifts to Trump’s abrupt policy pivot on the Ukraine war, his latest legal troubles, and the broader implications for American democracy, featuring expert analysis from lawmakers and historians.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tom Homan Bribery Allegations and the “Homan Files” (01:29–12:36)

• MSNBC and NYT Confirm Story:
  Reporting led by MSNBC’s Carol Lennig and Ken Dilanian, now corroborated by The New York Times, claims Tom Homan—appointed by Trump to a non-Senate-confirmed role—was videotaped by the FBI accepting $50,000 in cash as a bribe while running a consulting firm advising government contractors.

• White House Responses:
  The White House has been mostly silent. The Press Secretary inadvertently admitted on record that Homan met with undercover FBI agents, although she insists he did not actually take the money (08:57).

  “Mr. Homan never took the $50,000 that you're referring to, so you should get your facts straight, number one… You had FBI agents going undercover to try and entrap one of the President's top allies.”
  — White House Press Secretary (08:57)

  • O’Donnell highlights that this confirms at least part of the story: the meeting with FBI agents.

• Tom Homan’s Defense:
  On Fox News, Homan denies illegal behavior but does not categorically deny accepting the cash or meeting with the FBI (11:33):

  “Look, I did nothing criminal. I did nothing illegal… there’s a hit piece on me every two weeks. But keep coming, because you know what? Tom Homan isn't going anywhere.”
  — Tom Homan (11:33)

  O’Donnell points out what Homan didn’t say:

  “Tom Homan has not disputed a single thing reported by MSNBC. He did not deny taking the $50,000 in cash.”
  — Lawrence O’Donnell (12:36)

• Congressional & DOJ Demands:
  Both House (led by Rep. Jamie Raskin) and Senate Democrats (Sen. Klobuchar et al.) officially demand the FBI and DOJ release the Homan files, including recordings (06:20–07:40, 26:10–27:53).

  “We demand that both of you immediately turn over all recordings from Mr. Homan's meeting, as well as all files from this investigation of purported bribery involving Mr. Homan. This is an untenable situation.”
  — House Judiciary Committee, quoted by O’Donnell (07:13)

• Historical Context – Abscam Parallels:
  O’Donnell plays Abscam sting video and describes its impact (15:51–19:02):

  “…No criminal defendants have been able to convince juries they are not guilty after the juries have seen FBI videotape of the defendants taking cash from undercover FBI agents.”
  — Lawrence O’Donnell (19:02)

  He asserts that Trump and Homan fear similar footage surfacing.

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2. Political and Legal Implications

With Rep. Eric Swalwell (20:07–24:10)

• FBI Evidence Practices:
  Swalwell explains the existence and security of the FBI’s electronic evidence (ELSUR) system, noting the impossibility of quietly destroying such evidence.

  “For a bribe this large, there's no deleting or unseen this. It's just a matter—does it take a Democratic House to subpoena this and show the American people…?”
  — Rep. Eric Swalwell (20:38)

• Broader Corruption Risks:
  Swalwell emphasizes why the conduct matters for public trust and fair business (22:37):

  “Small businesses and medium-sized businesses work very hard to earn government contracts… when you're competing against a guy like Homan who is saying he's got an inside track… that hurts everyone.”

With Sen. Amy Klobuchar (26:10–33:16)

• Republican Liability:
  Klobuchar links Homan’s appointment outside Senate confirmation to prior internal awareness of the bribery scandal (28:09):

  “100%. Because we would get that information if we were pursuing that… You just can’t allow this kind of corruption to occur in a high-ranking government official.”

• Other Administration Failures:

  • Trump’s avoidance of Democratic-proposed health care reforms and rural hospital funding.
  • Suppression of USDA hunger statistics, with Klobuchar noting:

    “Hunger is still there. It’s getting worse, and it’s not going to get better just because you stop measuring it.” (30:46)

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3. Trump’s Ukraine Policy Reversal (34:27–40:04)

• Trump’s Stunning Admission:
  Trump reverses his longtime stance, now echoing Biden’s support for Ukraine:

  “After getting to know and fully understand the Ukraine, Russia, military and economic situation… I think Ukraine, with the support of the European Union, is in a position to fight and win…”
  — Lawrence O’Donnell quoting Trump (34:27–34:57)

• Analysis by Prof. Timothy Snyder:
  Snyder explains the new statement's significance and limitations:

  “The basis of our wrong-headed policy has been the assumption that Russia is a great power, it can’t be defeated, whereas history shows that various incarnations of Russia lose wars all the time.”
  — Prof. Timothy Snyder (37:14)

  But he notes Trump’s statement lacks specifics about U.S. aid, and that “statements are not action.”

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4. Trump Lawsuits & Media Suppression (41:40–46:19)

• Trump’s Legal Diversions:
  Trump’s defamation lawsuits against the New York Times and Wall Street Journal thrown out, largely for lack of merit. O’Donnell and Barbara McQuaid agree these are strategic distractions:

  “It does seem that lawsuits are being used more as a weapon than a means of achieving justice.”
  — Barbara McQuaid (45:51)

• Suppression of Critics:
  Prof. Snyder draws attention to government efforts to sideline comedian Jimmy Kimmel, warning:

  “Comedy matters a lot. People get to truth by way of comedy… In Russia in the 2000s or in Germany, 1930s, when the comedians went, other things went after that.”
  — Prof. Timothy Snyder (40:32)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• O’Donnell on Trump’s general assembly speech and corruption:

  “Donald Trump is now the only president in history who decided to appoint someone… after that person had been recorded on video by the FBI accepting $50,000 in cash.” (03:44)

• O’Donnell on the consequences of evidence surfacing:

  “Donald Trump knows, and Tom Homan knows, that Tom Homan cannot possibly survive this story if the FBI videotape… becomes public.” (19:02)

• Swalwell on Congressional oversight:

  “It's all coming out, Lawrence. It's just a matter of time.” (20:07, 23:26)

• Klobuchar summarizing rural health crisis:

  “These Affordable Care Act premiums are going to go up 75%. 75% for 20 million Americans in rural [areas].” (29:33)

• Snyder on the power of public protest:

  “We need to protest in large numbers, call things out for what they are, and we can win issues of this size.” (41:21)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Homan Bribery Allegations and White House Response:

  • 01:29–09:36

• Tom Homan’s Fox News Interview:

  • 11:33–12:36

• Congressional Demands for Files:

  • 07:13–07:40; 26:10–27:53

• Abscam Historical Parallels:

  • 15:51–19:02

• Swalwell Interview (FBI Evidence & Corruption):

  • 20:07–24:10

• Klobuchar Interview (Confirmation & Healthcare):

  • 26:59–33:16

• Trump Ukraine Policy Reversal & Analysis:

  • 34:27–40:04

• Snyder on Comedy and Repression:

  • 40:32–41:35

• Barbara McQuaid on Lawsuits as Distraction:

  • 44:24–46:13

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Episode Tone & Language

• The episode features O’Donnell’s signature mix of investigative sharpness, arch political critique, and historical perspective, with guests—lawmakers and scholars—matching his direct, occasionally wry, style.

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Summary

This packed episode delivers a thorough, damning appraisal of new evidence suggesting corruption at the highest levels of Trump’s administration, specifically implicating Tom Homan. O’Donnell and guests expose the administration’s strategy of obfuscation and distraction, connect today’s scandals to historic moments of congressional bribery, and underline the mechanisms available for oversight and possible exposure of wrongdoing. The second half follows the ripple effects on both domestic and foreign policy—from corruption warping government contracts to a whiplash Trump pivot on Ukraine. Legal analysis and the dangers of suppressing critics round out a show deeply concerned with the fragility—and resilience—of American accountability.

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Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Eric Swalwell]

Son, can we talk about your drinking?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, Dad, I think we should. Helping those closest to you think about their excessive drinking. Maybe that's what love sounds like.

[Eric Swalwell]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The Last Word with Lawrence O' Donnell starts right now. Hey Lawrence. Hey Jen. Thanks for reminding us about exactly what the status is of the discharge petition and how this election could push it forward.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Absolutely.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's a big one in that regard and we'll soon know. Next couple hours probably, hopefully. Yeah, it looks like it's going to happen. And Jen, thank you very much for joining this program last night.

[White House Press Secretary]

Thank you for having me.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Good book to be talking about. Okay. Thanks, John. Well, Today, for every one of the 57 minutes that Donald Trump spoke to the General assembly of the United nations, desperately pretending to be the smartest person in the room by insulting the entire world and insulting the intelligence of most Americans, Donald Trump was condemning himself to history with his own statements that historians will be using against him for the rest of time. I'm telling you that if you don't get away from the green energy scam, your country is going to fail. Future historians will have an easy time convicting Donald Trump of out of control ignorance and incompetence simply by quoting Donald Trump saying things like that. And today, every representative of every country listening to Donald Trump knew that Donald Trump is covering up and preventing the release of the Epstein files that he promised to release and his attorney general promised to release. And they have now refused to release, possibly because Donald Trump's name appears in the Epstein files too many times. And today at the United nations, thanks to reporting by MSNBC this weekend, every representative of every country listening to Donald Trump knew that while Donald Trump was shaming himself at that microphone, he was also covering up the Homan files. Donald Trump is now the only president in history who decided to appoint someone to a job in his administration after that person had been recorded on video by the FBI accepting $50,000 in cash. The New York Times has Now backed up MSNBC's reporting with the Times confirming all of the same facts first revealed by MSNBC's Carol Lennig and Kendallanian in an investigative report that has now shocked the entire Trump administration into abject silence. It has been more than 24 hours now since anyone in the Trump administration has dared to say a single word about the $50,000 that Donald Trump's so called borders are a job invented by Donald Trump that does not require Senate confirmation. Tom Homan accepted on videotape from FBI agents last September who were posing as businessmen eager to get government contracts related to border security. At the time, Tom Homan was running a consulting business advising companies on how to get government contracts related to border security. So everyone at the United nations today knew that they were listening to the only American president in history who has someone on the government payroll, who he now knows, thanks to msnbc, if he didn't know before, was caught on video by the FBI accepting $50,000 in cash before Donald Trump gave him his job in the federal government. And everyone at the United nations listening to Donald Trump try to insult them knew that they were listening to a man who cannot even pronounce the name of the medicine that he has decided to give medical advice about. Effective immediately, the FDA will be notifying physicians that the use of acetam. Well, let's see how we say that. Acetaminophen. Acetaminophen. Is that okay? Which is basically commonly known as Tylenol. Is that okay? No, it's not okay when a clownish man who cannot even pronounce the name of the medicine he tries to give you advice about tells you not to take that medicine. Unfortunately, too many Americans will suffer by making the mistake of following Donald Trump's medical advice and the advice of Donald Trump's Secretary of Health and Human Services, the most dangerous American Nepo baby in. In American history, Robert Kennedy Jr. Who insists that his own admitted 14 year addiction to heroin is over, while his even more dangerous addiction to public attention remains incurable. Democrats in the House and Senate are now calling for the release of the Homan files. In addition to the Epstein files. Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee, led by Congressman Jamie Raskin, have demanded in writing that the Attorney General and FBI director hand over the Homan files, the Democrats wrote. Do the Department of Justice and Federal Bureau of Investigation have video and audio recordings of White House border czar Tom Homan accepting $50,000 in cash bribes from undercover FBI agents stuffed in a brown paper takeout bag from the restaurant chain Cava? It certainly sounds like you do Your reported effort to shut down this investigation appears to be a brazen cover up to protect Donald Trump's allies at a time when the Department of Justice and FBI are also being ordered to aggressively pursue prosecution of Donald Trump's political enemies. We demand that both of you immediately turn over all, all recordings from Mr. Homan's meeting, as well as all files from this investigation of purported bribery involving Mr. Homan. This is an untenable situation. And today Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee also demanded the same material. The Senate Democrats said, we are initiating a robust oversight inquiry to review Mr. Homan's actions prior to and since joining this administration, as well as the FBI's role in ultimately shutting down the investigation into Mr. Homan. Closing this investigation is an unprecedented departure from FBI's longstanding role in combating public corruption. These allegations raise additional concerns that this administration's immigration enforcement and deportation policies and actions, including its award of federal funds for detention centers or security related technology, have been and may continue to be influenced by Mr. Homan's corrupt financial interests. Yesterday, the White House press secretary apparently inadvertently admitted that Tom Homan was in a meeting with undercover FBI agents. She made that admission yesterday when she got carried away in saying something that, that no one else has said. She claimed Mr. Homan never took the $50,000.

[White House Press Secretary]

Did the president ask the Justice Department to close the case, and does Homan have to return the $50,000? Well, Mr. Homan never took the $50,000 that you're referring to, so you should get your facts straight, number one. Number two, this was another example of the weaponization of the Biden Department of Justice against, of President Trump's strongest and most vocal supporters in the midst of a presidential campaign. You had FBI agents going undercover to try and entrap one of the President's top allies and supporters, someone who they knew very well would be taking a government position months later. Mr. Homan did absolutely nothing wrong.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So, first of all, who told her that Mr. Homans never took the $50,000? Who told her that? Was it Mr. Homan's? He has not dared to say that himself, and no one else has dared to say that. But what you saw there, in her frenzied attempt to claim that Tom Homan never took the $50,000, she actually just said, quote, you had FBI agents going undercover to try and entrap one of the President's top allies and supporters, end quote. So there you have the President's press secretary, Ed, admitting that Tom Homan was in a meeting with undercover FBI Agents. That's the White House confirming at least that fact. That's the White House officially confirming that Tom Homan was in a meeting with undercover FBI agents. And last night, in a comical attempt to put out this fire, Tom Homan appeared on the Fox propaganda channel, where the interviewer forgot to ask him, were you in a meeting with undercover FBI agents? And she forgot to ask him, did you take $50,000 in cash? Tom, I want to give you a chance to address this article that came out over the weekend, and it was on our always reliable MSNBC, and they said that you took $50,000 in cash in a bag from an undercover FBI agent to help them win government contracts in Trump's second term. The DOJ said they concluded there was no criminal wrongdoing, but nevertheless, that story is out there. And I imagine you want to respond to that.

[Tom Homan]

Absolutely. Look, I did nothing criminal. I did nothing illegal. And there's hit piece after hit piece after hit piece. And I'm glad the FBI and DOJ came out and said and said that nothing illegal happened and nothing. No criminal activity you're talking about. Guys spent 34 years enforcing the law. I mean, I left a very successful business that I ran to come back and work for a government again. I'm back on a government paycheck. Not only did I sacrifice my family sacrifices, I make sacrifices every day. I got more death threats than anybody. I got a security team around me. But guess what? My kids don't. My wife don't. I mean, I haven't lived with my wife in months because I don't want her to be here right now with all the threats. So after all the sacrifices, after serving my nation all these years, they want to come out and dirty me up. And it's not going to end. There's a hit piece on me every two weeks. But keep coming, because you know what? Tom Holman isn't going anywhere. Tom Holman isn't shutting up. And Tom Holman's going to keep doing what he's doing, because working with President Trump is the greatest honor in my life. We're making this country safer again every day, and we're going to keep doing it.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So Tom Homan says he isn't shutting up, but the other thing he isn't doing is disputing a single fact reported by MSNBC in that investigative report. Tom Homan has not disputed a single thing reported by MSNBC in that investigative report. What you just heard is the entirety of. Of what Tom Homan has said about MSNBC's reporting. And I wanted you to hear the entirety of it, including all the irrelevant junk that he threw in there that has nothing to do with the evidence that's reported in that investigative report, so you could hear what he did not say. And as I pointed out last night, Tom Homan there did not deny taking the $50,000 in cash. And that is a distinction that has been picked up in the New York Times coverage of the story and most other news reports covering this story today, that Tom Homan has not denied taking the $50,000 in cash. And that leaves only the White House press secretary saying that, yes, Tom Homan was in a meeting with undercover FBI agents. You heard her admit that, but she says he did not take the cash. Tom Homan himself is not daring to say whether he was in that meeting or whether he took the cash, because Tom Homan knows if there is video in the FBI files of him doing that. Remember, Tom Homan knows. So he's very careful about what he says and doesn't say. And Donald Trump saying absolutely nothing about it. Nothing. Absolute silence, nothing about it. But he's doing everything he can to create as many fireworks displays as he can around different news centers to divert attention away from what are now the two stories Donald Trump is trying to run away from this year, the Epstein files and now the new Homan files. We already have an idea of what that kind of FBI sting video looks like. It has been 46 years since FBI undercover agents caught federal officials on videotape accepting $50,000 in cash, which is apparently the FBI's favorite number for undercover payoffs to politicians. That FBI operation in 1979 was codenamed Abscam. It involved undercover FBI agents posing as Arab businessmen trying to bribe members of Congress and local officials in New Jersey. Writer director David O. Russell's film American Hustle, starring Bradley Cooper, with an assist from Robert De Niro and Christian Bale, tells the fictionalized story of abscam. Everyone watching TV news in America in 1980 saw exactly what it was like when FBI undercover agents hand over $50,000 in cash. Sometimes they need a bigger envelope.

[Narrator/Reporter]

This is one of the FBI videotapes recorded in August 1979. It shows FBI agent Anthony Amoroso stuffing an envelope with $50,000. Moments later, Amoroso met with Congressman Michael Myers of Pennsylvania, who sat on the left side of the couch. Myers came in with Mayor Angelo Araketti of Camden, New Jersey, who sat next to Myers on the couch. FBI informant Melvin Weinberg sat in the chair on the right. The numbers across the bottom of the screen are FBI identification numbers. NBC News has edited this tape. Agent Amoroso, posing as a representative of a phony Arab sheik, asked Myers if he would use his influence to help the Arab get into the United States.

[Amy Klobuchar]

What you're telling me is that you've.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Got the cloud manager introduced legislature, introduce legislation.

[Amy Klobuchar]

I work with two different people right now, two different Arab groups, and they're highly interested in this because of, you know, listen, they got tons of money. They want to ensure that wherever they go, they're going to make it right.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

If it looks like a real promising.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Thing there, we've got the promise of like eight or nine more of these people wanting to. To get involved in this thing, okay? And you know, you're talking about a lot of money. Okay, you're going.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Let me just say this to you.

[Amy Klobuchar]

You'Re going about it the right way, okay?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I'm going to tell you something real simple and short. You know, money talks in this business and bullshit talks. It works the same way down in Washington.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Later in the tape, the FBI agent handed Myers an envelope which contained $50,000.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And it sounds like I should guarantee that. Do put rounds at home. Guarantee.

[Amy Klobuchar]

I don't need your guarantee.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Let's go.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Bull. Some court stuff that we can. Four of us can meet back in Philly, spend it well. Pleasure.

[Narrator/Reporter]

In Meyer's trial, the prosecution said the tapes never lie. The defense never argued with that claim. But the defense said that off camera, the FBI led the defendants to say what they did by coaching them before the taped meetings. To prove that point, the defense played an audio tape of FBI informant Melvin Weinberg prompting New Jersey Senator Harrison Williams before a meeting with the phony Arab.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You gotta just plainly blow your horn. A lot of you blow and mention names who you control. You gotta take the position. You're the boss, all right? Come on me, I'm the power. And that's it. Simple as that.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The jury believed the prosecution's interpretation of the tapes. It convicted Myers and his three co defendants of bribery and conspiracy.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

One United States Senator and six members of the House of Representatives were convicted of bribery and conspiracy. No criminal defendants have been able to convince juries they are not guilty after the juries have seen FBI videotape of the defendants taking cash from undercover FBI agents. Donald Trump knows, and Tom Homan knows that Tom Homan cannot possibly survive this story if the FBI videotape of his meeting with undercover FBI agents becomes public. Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California. He's a Member of the House Judiciary Committee and the House Homeland Security Committee. Congressman Swalwell, thank you very much for joining us tonight. As the prosecutors in Abscam said, the tapes never lie. The Tom Homan tape will not lie. If we can just see that tape.

[Eric Swalwell]

It's all coming out, Lawrence. It's just a matter of time. And just so your viewers understand the way this works, there's a system at the FBI called elser. It's the electronic surveillance, essentially the CRM evidence collection system that agents use to, you know, process and store evidence. And for a decision this big, it's been shared with a number of agents and a number of lawyers at the Department of Justice. In fact, most offices don't even have that much cash on hand to pay their sources. And so they have to go to headquarters to receive approval. For a bribe this large, there's no deleting or unseen this. It's just a matter. Does it take a Democratic House of Representatives to subpoena this and show the American people, or will some people come forward and do the right thing? Also, Lawrence, your app scam example, it makes me kind of feel bad for Homan in a way in that I'm sure he would prefer to receive his bribes through some crappy cryptocurrency coin like others and take billions. But instead he had to resort to the old fashioned way, cash in a bag like the 80s, which is what he did. But it's all coming out, Lawrence, and we're going to be dogged about making that the case.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

If it has to wait until the Democrats have control of the House of Representatives in order to issue a subpoena from the House of Representatives. The Supreme Court has basically told Donald Trump, if you want to order the destruction of that video, you can do that. Because this Supreme Court has said to Donald Trump, it's impossible for you to commit a crime if you're issuing an order to anyone at the Justice Department.

[Eric Swalwell]

Yes, he certainly will be motivated to do that. But there's other ways to go at this. And so it is very likely that the Department of Justice or the Bureau sent what's called National Security Letters to telecommunication companies and banks around this investigation. So you have a private side to this. And I promise you they have saved those records and we can subpoena those records, and they're not going to make the same claims the Trump administration will make. And so we can see also either, you know, a deposit of $50,000 or the absence of that deposit, which again, would put him in other criminal peril. But the issue your viewers should care about is to like, why do we care about this? Why is it a problem? You know, small businesses and medium sized businesses work very hard to earn government contracts. In fact, that is the cornerstone of many businesses. And when you're competing against a guy like Homan who is saying that he's got an inside track to the administration, you know, that affects everyone and that, you know, hurts other businesses ability to compete if the whole system is rot to the core and that's sure what this looks like.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

How many bribes might have been involved in the construction of the so called alligator Alcatraz in Florida?

[Eric Swalwell]

It's all coming out, Lawrence, and we have been very clear about that. And Hakeem Jeffries said that last week. Essentially he said it in relation to what happened with the FCC and Jimmy Kimmel. We say it in relation to the college campuses who are doing these drug deals with the administration, to the law firms and now to people like Homan. You may be protected right now under Donald Trump, but the American people will never go for this. The juries in the Abscam case didn't go for this. And the jury that will be the voters next November won't go for this. And we're going to root out this not just culture of corruption, you know, but this is essentially organized corruption at the very top. And it's going to all be exposed.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Congressman Eric Swalwell, thank you very much for starting off our coverage tonight.

[Narrator/Reporter]

My pleasure.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thanks for. Thank you. Coming up, Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee are now demanding the Homan files. Senator Amy Klobuchar, a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, will join us next.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Democrats in the Senate Judiciary Committee are also demanding the Homan files writing to Donald Trump's Attorney General and FBI director, quote, we request that the full investigative file, including any recordings of Mr. Homan receiving cash from undercover FBI agents, be delivered to immediately to Congress and made available to the public. Joining us now is Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. She's one of the Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee who signed that letter today. Senator Klobuchar, as the prosecutor said, namscam, the tapes never lie. Do you share Congressman Swalwell's confidence about eventually obtaining the videotape of Tom Holman taking $50,000 from an FBI agent?

[Amy Klobuchar]

I hope we get it. And if you've looked at the stonewalling on the Epstein files and other documents we've requested, I'm not so sure. But what I do know is this sounds like some kind of over the top movie. I'm always thinking about how when we have judges from Democratic and Republican presidents on the Judiciary Committee, there's a thorough vetting and a number of times things come up in their records, shoplifting, minor drug use and the like from way, way back. And we have actual discussions about what should happen. And sometimes these people don't even make it to the next level. And then I look at this $50,000 in cash in a bag. Clearly we need the answers and that is why I hope Republicans will join us in given the position of responsibility that Mr. Homan has.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So the reporting on this is that the Trump administration knew about it basically almost as soon as Inauguration Day. And so this could explain why Tom Homan was not given a job that requires Senate confirmation.

[Amy Klobuchar]

100%. Because we would get that information if we were pursuing that. But the point is, now this has come out and there are many, many reports of this and we need to see this. And I would think that, as I said, my Republican colleagues would have a big interest in this as well, because you just can't allow this kind of corruption to occur in a high ranking government official.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Today, the top Democrat in the House of Representatives, Hakeem Jeffries, said in a social media post, Trump always chickens out. He was describing Donald Trump canceling a meeting that he was supposed to have with Leader Schumer and Leader Jeffries about the possible funding of the government. Let's listen to what Kim Jeffries said about their priorities today.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Our top priority is to make sure that, that we cancel the cuts, lower the costs, and save health care for the American people. That's eight words not difficult for Donald Trump to process.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Cancel the cuts, lower the costs, save health care. Eight words. Senator, that sounds like the eight words that Donald Trump doesn't want to hear.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Exactly. You know, by walking away from that meeting where the leaders, Senator Schumer, Senator Jeffries had simply requested a meeting. Donald Trump showed us that he would rather shut down the government than work with us to lower these skyrocketing healthcare costs that his administration has caused. I was just out in the rural parts of my state visiting hospitals. They are on the cliff. Why? These Affordable Care act premiums are going to go up 75%. 75% for 20 million Americans in rural. They're even going to double. And the Republicans aren't doing anything about it. We are. That's what this is about. We want to help these rural hospitals and we want to make sure NIH is funded and we want to make sure that we are tackling this problem caused by so many of the things that this president has done to bring down healthcare costs.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And now Donald Trump wants to stop anyone in the federal government from actually counting what's happening out there in the country in terms of nutrition and food insecurity.

[Amy Klobuchar]

This is an unbelievable story, Lawrence, and thank you for asking about it. So there's this annual report that's been done for 30 years out of the Department of Agriculture. And it's just shows how many people have hunger issues in their homes. A lot of times it's kids. And then that allows us to make decisions about, based on facts, based on, to make decisions about nutrition. In this case, I can tell you, hunger is still there. It's getting worse, and it's not going to get better just because you stop measuring it. That's what the Trump administration did here. And when you look at the Trump tariff taxes, $300 a year are going to be added for grocery bills. And of course we're going to have more problems with people going hungry. All the SNAP cuts they made to the nutrition programs that are going to affect kids and families and seniors and veterans, all of that's going to matter. And they literally. I don't. This is just a through line, right? He doesn't like the jobs numbers, so he fires the statistician. He doesn't like the election results, so he fires the cybersecurity person who had the audacity to declare that the election was safe. He doesn't like the hunger report that he knows is going to show that people are having trouble affording food. So he goes and says, we're getting rid of the report and maybe we'll get rid of the people that are doing that report as well. This is just simply outrageous. Presidents should take responsibility, work on things like health care and hunger.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator Amy Klobuchar, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Amy Klobuchar]

It was great to be on. Lawrence. Thanks.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. And coming up, it took 247 days in the presidency, this time for Donald Trump to completely agree with Joe Biden. That's next with Professor Timothy Snyder.

[Laci Mosley]

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[Amy Klobuchar]

Br.

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More.

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Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess. Wherever you get your podcasts.

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And each one more expensive and more complicated than the last. It can be pretty stressful.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Day, the 247th day of Donald Trump's second term as president, Donald Trump said he finally understands, quote, the Ukraine, Russia, military and economic situation, end quote. So that's Donald Trump publicly admitting today that he never understood it before today. After Donald Trump's disgraceful speech at the United nations today, he had a meeting there with Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky and the President of the European Union. And after that meeting, Donald Trump completely reversed his position on Vladimir Putin's war against Ukraine, posting this on social media. After getting to know and fully understand the Ukraine, Russia, military and economic situation and after seeing the economic trouble it is causing Russia, I think Ukraine, with the support of the European Union, is in a position to fight and win all of Ukraine back in its original form. With time, patience and the financial support of Europe and in particular NATO, the original borders from where this war started is very much an option. And so with that statement, Donald Trump finally completely agrees with Joe Biden on Ukraine. And in his speech to the United Nations General assembly this afternoon, President Zelensky said the Russian representative is here, but.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Of course not the one who makes the real decisions.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That man fears to sit face to.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Face with Ukraine and the world and.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Openly admit he wants only war. China is also represented here, a powerful nation on which Russia now depends completely. If China truly wanted this war to.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Stop, it could compel Moscow to end the invasion. Without China, Putin's Russia is nothing.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yet too often China stays silent and.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Distant instead of active for peace.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joining us now is Timothy Snyder, professor of History at the University of Toronto. He is also the author of the New York Times bestsellers on Freedom and On Tyranny. Professor Snyder, Donald Trump's new statement today, who knows how long it will last, but it is a dramatically new statement from him on Ukraine.

[Timothy Snyder]

It's important that the mystique at least seems to be broken because the bas of our wrong headed policy in this war to some extent under President Biden and to a Great extent under President Trump has been the assumption that Russia is a great power, it can't be defeated, whereas history shows that various incarnations of Russia lose wars all the time. The second important point is that President Trump seems to understand that there is an important economic side to this which is crucial. That's true. If we got serious about hydrocarbons, about Russia's shadow fleet, about sanctions and secondary sanctions, we do indeed have the instruments to make this war end much more quickly.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And President Zelensky's statement today, where he pointed directly at China, can that be effective?

[Timothy Snyder]

Well, the Chinese are the only winners of this war. That's important to understand. The Chinese like this war, because this war seems to weaken everybody except them. It weakens the Americans, it weakens the Europeans, and fundamentally, it weakens the Russians, which they like. It allows Russians to become their vassals. So it's right to point to China, but it would be wrong to wait for China. The Americans are the ones who could actually change policy. Mr. Trump has changed words, but Putin doesn't care about the words. We have to fundamentally change policy, share weapons with Ukraine, remove restrictions on the use of those weapons, remove American review each time the Ukrainians want to use a weapon, and essentially allow the Ukrainians to do what they can. Putin's not going to change until we change policy. Policy is the crucial thing.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. And in the Trump statement saying that Ukraine could win this war, on the list of support that he believes in that statement, Ukraine needs to win the war doesn't include anything specific from the United States.

[Timothy Snyder]

Yeah. I mean, this is, of course, how the Russians are going to read this. They're going to read it and they're going to say, well, there are no American policy instruments here. And that's, of course, the great tragedy. We have the economic and the military power, which, if properly and carefully mobilized, could bring this war to an end. It would be a relatively easy thing for us to do. The mistake that we make in the White House and also, I'm afraid, to a great extent in the press, is to confuse statements for action. So the Russians will simply wait on the assumption that Trump won't do anything. And, you know, we have to wait and see if that assumption will be proved wrong. But until it's proved wrong, nothing's going to change on the Russian side.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Professor Snyder, I've been eager to get your perspective on what we've seen in the last week, almost a week, with the Jimmy Kimmel situation. He's coming back on television tonight night, but was clearly threatened and threatened by the government. The company he works for, threatened by the government to keep him off television. How does that take its place in what you have studied about the way repressive regimes take over and try to control information?

[Timothy Snyder]

Comedy matters. Comedy matters a lot. People get to truth by way of comedy. Comedy surprises people in Russia in the 2000s or in Germany, 1930s, when the comedians went, other things went after that. This is a very serious case because it doesn't involve just the decisions about corporations, about making money. It involves direct state intervention. We also are learning it's a, it's a medium sized case, but still important. We're also learning that if people mobilize, if they recognize a freedom of speech violation for what it is, they can also make a difference. And taking that win, it's a medium sized win, is important. I've got to say, Laurent, it was strange for me because I was in Ukraine and I came back to this and it's such a change of focus because I've, I was with folks on the front who were clear about what they were doing. They were fighting for freedom and they are right to think that. And then we come back to this situation where it's very clear what we need to do. We need to protest in large numbers, call things out for what they are, and we can win issues of this size. And I hope we'll keep doing so.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Professor Timothy Snyder, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Timothy Snyder]

My pleasure.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. Coming up, after Donald Trump's absurd lawsuit against the New York Times was dismissed at the earliest possible stage, the Wall Street Journal is now asking a federal judge to dismiss Donald Trump's lawsuit against the Journal over the Trump birthday letter to Jeffrey Epstein. That's next. On Friday, a federal judge in Florida dismissed Donald Trump's absurd lawsuit against the New York Times at the earliest possible stage in the proceedings, the judge simply read Donald Trump's 85 page ludicrous complaint initiating the lawsuit and dismissed it without even waiting for a written defense by the New York Times. That was a possibility that I suggested on this program the day Donald Trump filed that lawsuit because like everyone else who read it, we had never held a more ridiculous legal filing in our hands. And now the Wall Street Journal has made a formal motion to dismiss Donald Trump's ridiculous defamation lawsuit against the Journal for reporting on the existence of a birthday book of messages to Donald Trump's old friend Jeffrey Epstein on Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday. That was at the time that Jeffrey Epstein, in his life, when he was Sex trafficking children and young women and raping them almost every day. Donald Trump's preposterous lawsuit put a lie in writing, calling the birthday letter, quote, the non existent letter. The Wall Street Journal reported the birthday book contained a letter that appeared to have Donald Trump's signature on it, along with a message that included such lines as May every day be another wonderful secret, thanks to an attorney for the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein, Brad Edwards, who revealed on this program that the Epstein estate was in possession of the birthday book. The House Oversight Committee then subpoenaed the birthday book from the Epstein estate. And not the world knows that what Donald Trump falsely called in a legal filing, the non existent letter very much exists. And the signature matches Donald Trump's signature on other notes that have been made public since then, including a note that Donald Trump wrote to me in 2016 with the very same signature that appears in the Jeffrey Epstein birthday letter. Joining us now is Barbara McQuaid, former U.S. attorney and law professor at the University of Michigan Law School. She's an MSNBC legal analyst and the author of Attack from How Disinformation Is Sabotaging America. Barbara, it seems like the Wall Street Journal is in just about as strong a position as the New York Times.

[Barbara McQuaid]

I think that's right, Lawrence. I mean, they say in this motion to dismiss that there are problems with every element of Donald Trump's defamation claim. First, that there was anything false said. They said that there is this document it purports to be from Donald Trump. Here's what it says, here's the drawing. And in fact, there is. So there's nothing false about this. Second, they say that it's not defamatory because people know publicly that Donald Trump was friends with Jeffrey Epstein. He's admitted it himself. People know that he sometimes says things about women that are derogatory based on, for example, the Access Hollywood tape. And finally, they say there's no evidence of actual malice, which requires a showing either that the publisher knew the statement was false or acted with reckless disregard as to his falsity, because in fact, it's true. And so if any one of those is a winner for the Wall Street Journal, they win. And it sounds like it's a winner on them for all three.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And Barbara, each one of these lawsuits, especially the Journal lawsuit, looks like it was filed literally just to get Donald Trump through the Newsday. At the time, they knew that the Wall Street Journal was going to publish the birthday, the report on the birthday letter, and they filed the lawsuit just to distract and send the news coverage in a different direction that day. That seemed to be good enough for them. If they could divert for a day, couple of days, that's worth a lawsuit, it seems in the way they make these calculations.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Yeah. I don't know what goes on in their minds, but the merits of this lawsuit are very weak, as are the merits of that New York Times lawsuit. Lawsuit. And then just tonight, we have seen a truth social post by Donald Trump talking about how they might have to go after ABC again for allowing Jimmy Kimmel to go back on the air. So it does seem that lawsuits are being used more as a weapon than as a means of achieving justice.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. And a diversion of attention. Barbara McQuaid, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We'll be right back. Barbara McQuaid gets tonight's last word.

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